May 27, 2022 • 26 mins
During this special National Reconciliation Week episode, Matika and Courtney talk about Reconciliations past and this year's theme: Be Brave, Make Change.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is recorded on Stolen Land. We acknowledge and
pay our respects to our elders, past, present, and for
future generations.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hi. I'm a Teka and I'm Courtney and we're two
Queer First Nations women passionate about representation for our community.
We created this podcast to share our stories. We want
you to join us on the journey.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
You're listening to Coming Out Black? Hello, having a good time?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Yeah we are, we are having a good time. Welcome
or welcome back to another episode of Coming Out Black.
Today is actually a really significant, I think an important
episode because it is ouring during National Reconciliation Week. For
those of you who might not know much about the week, Courtney,
do you want to tell us a bit about it?
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Reconciliation Week is a time for all Australians to learn
about our shared history, culture and achievements and to explore
how each of us can contribute to achieving reconciliation in Australia.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Let's unpack that.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yeah, let's I think it's an important week and it
allows us to facilitate a lot of important conversations. You know,
you have a lot of panel events, specific content that
comes out for National Reconciliation Week, which I think is
really good. But obviously there's some complexity around the actual
(01:27):
word reconciliation.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Correct, and we get to actually like unpack that word
without saying the word unpacked a million times.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Just one more time unpacked.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Yeah. I think what's really important is that we unpack
the word reconciliation because it's quite contentious I think in
our community, non Indigenous community, in the indigenous community, in
even in the global First Nations community as well. Reconciliation
implies that there was a conciliation beforehand. But I want
(02:00):
to pull out Oxford Dixon, go on, maybe the dictionary we.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Should just start all calling it that now, like if
anyone has a copy at home, just go stick over.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
It ox Oxen.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Okay, Well, if we go with the colonial definition from
Oxford Languages. First definition is the restoration.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Of friendly relations. I don't know if that hits.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
The little okay or the action.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Of making one view or belief compatible with another. That's
a merit, that has a merit? What is reconciliation? Definition
from Reconciliation Australia. At its heart, reconciliation is about strengthening
relationships between Aboriginal and to Australia, islander people's and non
indigenous peoples for the benefit of all Australians.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
What do we think.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
I like that last one the best, and I think
there's obviously been some thought through a first nation's lens,
because you're right, the idea or the word reconciliation kind
of says that we work together in the first place,
and if you know anything about Australian history, from the
get go, it was a very other you're bad, get
(03:19):
out of here, or you don't even exist in the
first place. So I think that creates a little bit
of complexity, as you know, most things in Australia at
the moment or in general, because we have such a
complex history. So I think, you know, that doesn't quite
do justice to our history, but there still is merit
(03:40):
in the idea of you know, coming together, working together
for a better Australia.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Yeah. I almost feel like the word reconciliation can be
kind of perceived as quite.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Skin deep. You know, it's not.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
It doesn't have much about it, maybe because it's hard
to actually kind of encapie the progression or the movement
in one word, and maybe reconciliation was the word that
started it. I do know that the Prayer for the
Reconciliation was like the first first kind of moment in
(04:16):
quote unquote so called Australia's history, and it was called
Prayer for Reconciliation and that was back in nineteen I
don't know, nine ninety three, So the first time there
was a National Reconciliation Week it was nineteen.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Ninety six and it was a religious thing.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Yeah, well it started as a religious thing back in
nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Interesting. Yeah, given how much damage the church has done, yeah,
impacting First Nations culture and people and the role that
the church played, and you know a lot of missions
were set up as churches basically correct. That's really interesting.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
You didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
No, it's an interesting one. And like I said, it's
surface level. It doesn't necessarily encapsulate everything that it's supposed to.
But maybe that was the only word that someone had
for it back then, or a word that's not as
threatening as equality or equiting back when that movement started.
But it's an interesting one because you know, all of
(05:22):
the injustices that it has occurred historically and it's still
occurring today, can't be acknowledged. I think as part of reconciliation.
I think it's like, I think a lot of people
would agree that we haven't done all of the learning
and unpacking all of that history yet to just associate
with reconciliation.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
I think it's just like.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
We've got that whole truth telling peace to do because
I'm still meaning people today that don't know what happened. Yeah,
of my age who are well educated, went to you know,
a very good high school, great university and can't sit
and tell me about the Stolen Generation or.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Frontier Wars or yeah, like it's crazy because like, yeah, propaganda,
but it's like the government shame or school curriculum, right girl,
what's that wording that collective amnesia?
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yeah, and like obviously generations before us as well a
part of that.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
So then yeah, well, I think that it's important in
I think we can show by example in this podcast
episode that in order to embrace our idea of reconciliation today,
we need to provide that context, and we need to
recognize that we have not come from a place where
we were together in the first place, or that we
(06:43):
were like holding hands and walking as one and then
something happened. And I think also like reconciliation, in my head,
can sometimes lend itself to the idea of you know,
if you have a fight with your sibling and you're like, oh,
look we're reconciled, but really you just like agreed to
disagree on something doesn't necessarily mean that we need to
work change or any of those sorts of things. But
acknowledging the context in which we're talking about and using
(07:05):
that language and maybe shifting it to reconciliation in terms
of what we hope to come together, but understanding we
haven't started from a place where we were together.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Yeah, I guess for me, SIUs, it's like the power
dynamics of that even that word.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
It's just like, oh, we fucked up, but we're trying
to fix it.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
You know, it wasn't our fault, but you know now
we're trying to sorry, get passionate. Now we're trying to
you know, make things better and reconcile. Whereas I don't
know if it's that simple.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
But what do you think is more appropriate?
Speaker 3 (07:40):
It's a really good one. I don't know. And that's
the thing like it.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
I think that leads to community consultation. For you know,
when you say it in so many different areas where
our community continues to face traum moral challenges, or the
ongoing implications of colonization and attempt at genocide. Answers lie
within community, and given we've just found well, I just
(08:03):
found out that it's started as like a religious prayer
for reconciliation. Maybe it's started on the wrong foot and
it should have grown from community. But also I'm like,
I'm sure a lot of people are like I'm sick
of reaching out of hand for the rest of like
in quotations White Australia to meet us halfway or finally
(08:23):
walk with us.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Yeah, I think it's a it's probably a colonial concept
of just trying to encapsulate it in one word in
the first place, because I don't think it accounts for
all of the work that probably needs to be done,
and we've probably missed out on doing as a society.
And maybe we've missed a bit of it because we're
both only in our mid twenties, mid to late twenties.
(08:48):
But like, yeah, because I think about and it's escaping
me in a second, but it's about to come back
really strong.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
It was a really good point. I kind of look
at you, Why fuck it was actually really good end
of bitch no, because it was.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Like, well, you're saying prior to it, yes, okay, here,
I am here, I am excellent.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
So our laws in our constitution, which I know is
a big word right now, as well as policies, procedures,
particularly you know, in government relations, and a lot of
things that we do are all reflective of the United
Nations Declaration of Human Rights. Now, there is another declaration
(09:34):
that this country hasn't necessarily wrestled with too much, and
that's the United Nations Declarations of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples,
which it took us a while there to sign on
to it, but we did, I think back in twenty
and eleven you can.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
In fact, I think we were one of the last
sort of countries involved to do that.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
But we currently don't have a society that reflects any
sort of progression actually in upholding or achieving those rights.
So it's almost like we should actually go back to
untie some of it, or ensure that we're tying that.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Declaration into the things that we're doing.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
So, I know, wrap the word rap can be a
little bit of a contentious word. I feel like there's
a lot of need for it, a lot of benefit
from it.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
The structure that provides to people, especially again in quotations
white people meaning non first nations, can be really helpful
because I know a lot of people are like scared
to enter this space, afraid to do the wrong thing,
even if they have good intentions. And then of course
there's a huge group of people who would just like
get over it, what are you talking about? You know?
(10:46):
So I think REP frameworks can and even just the
weak national reconciliation we can provide us with a lot
of positives, but just you know, we need to acknowledge
the complexity of it as well.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
One hundred percent, and particularly because because it's something that
I guess anyone can sign up to and get involved in,
and no doubt collectively, as we've had corporate, commercial and
non government organizations signing up to this journey undergoing that
educational movement, I think that's been a mass education opportunity
(11:20):
for the country that no one else gets to have.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
I think, like you and I.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Both work in spaces that have wraps, we're both written apps,
we're both critiqued wraps and stuff, But like it can
be that Trojan horse I think in society, because when
else are you're going to be able to sit someone
down who Maybe it's not that they don't care about it,
it's just more they're so uninformed that they don't realize
(11:44):
how much they need to educate themselves or understand, which
is whack because like we're obviously in such dined and
we're like two hundred years later on this, but I
think I'm starting to work out that we've got to
meet people where they are and totally, yeah, there's a
lot of spoon fitting, a lot of bullshit that comes
along with that, which is really important.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Draining, and I think unfortunately, sometimes not that it's up
to us, but unfortunately First nations people's end up having
to do the work of spoon feeding information, slowly culturally educating,
slowly dismantling these colonial structures and mindsets in order to
finally get people to say, like, oh my god, I
(12:25):
can't believe I didn't know this, This is really important
to me, and then they start taking their own steps
towards it, and it's a shame that has to happen.
But I honestly can't think of a way to shift
that and to change that. Sorry, I also thought for
anyone who's listening who may not know what a RAP is,
it's a Reconciliation Action plan and so it's I guess,
(12:46):
a structured document with a whole bunch of promises and
deliverables essentially that organizations and businesses sign up to and
say we're gonna do all these things because we want
to uplift support in hopefully walk alongside with and engage
First Nations communities and peoples in whatever it is they're doing.
So if you didn't know what that document was, that's
(13:08):
what it is.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Yeah, and it's you know, I see them as trojan
horses for change, and.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Like some people see these things as you know, things
that hit their corporate social responsibility charters or things that
they've signed on to do as a business, so you
have to do it, which is, you know, whatever you
think of that. But people don't realize what they're signing
out for and then all of a sudden it's like, oh,
we have to do cultural capability training. We've signed on
(13:37):
as an organization to have an Indigenous advisory group that
brings so many more First Nations people into the organization
that probably weren't there beforehand, and I can definitely see
this uplift and this recognition and like value, not that
we need to be valued by non Indigenous people or organizations,
(13:58):
corporations or organizations, but being recognized I think in that
way and provided that leadership and guidance.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
I think is really progressive.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
And I think that's like uplifting and providing opportunity for
I guess our generation, which is reflective of what the
generations before us, before us have been banging on the
door or pleading for.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
And maybe I've lost a little hope and feel cynical
of the system.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
But now it's like bang, like there is change happening
quickly and it's going quick Now. There's been organizations that
have been recognized as these leaders in reconciliation and contributors,
but then they've really messed up. And that's I think
where people get a little bit nervous about it because
some of the some of the organizations that have really
(14:46):
done a lot of injustice to our people's historically and
currently previously were awarded high recognition in this space, not
for a lack of that they deserved it or that
they worked for it.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Something shift after that, Yeah, and there's there's one thing
to make mistakes and if you're a massive business or organization,
you're going to mess up and community will let you know.
What's important is do you listen and do you learn
from that? Or are you like we've been told not
to mind this significant Indigenous heritage site, but we're going
(15:22):
to continue doing that even though we actively have a
rap not naming names. But I think everyone knows what
you're talking about it.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
But it's interesting though because the then' like, what's the
what's the punishment if if you mess up on a
wrap you lose it? And then I think that's probably
where it gets a little bit difficult because you can
only do so much as reconciliation Australia, I suppose when
there's still a power imbalance. Yeah, but then I guess
because of that that pressure, I suppose of now organization society,
(15:50):
we're all able to hold other people more accountable because
we are upskilled, confident and have the ability now to
articulate or.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Recognize what that actually means.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
I think the amount of corporate and organizational pressure that
got put on that organization or sponsorship's lost or partnerships
torn up because they wanted to uphold the fact that
they have placed more value in Fast Nations community than
money is integral. Like, I thought that was really the
only good thing about that situation, and I wouldn't even
(16:22):
say it was a good thing, but it gives me
a little bit of hope that people don't necessarily completely
lose all of their values because of that dollar sign.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Yeah, totally. Sometimes I don't care why people do it
as long as they're doing it, because I think sometimes
particularly in the corporated, I think rap journeys start because
they think it's the right thing to do in terms
of how they appear to the public. But then through
that being the starting point, people do start to learn
(16:53):
and then realize I actually do really care about this,
and it shifts to being an authentic thing that people
are doing. So that's why sometimes I'm like, you know what,
if you're just doing this to look good, go ahead,
and I hope you learn something along the way and
it shifts.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Yeah, there's like I don't know if it's a reconciliation
movement or if it's the rise of First Nations voices,
particularly in social media or medium paradigms that we all
consume it, but that does that has been coming from
RAPS as well, So it's like, not how do want
to use the word normalizing it, but it's like I
almost feel like I'm more proud to be in a
(17:28):
country when there's people that really care a lot more
about this, and I know that's my probably my bubble
that I'm like more happy. Yeah, and then when it
gets popped and like damn shit, people are still not
great horrible.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah, but this is like, this is the standard that
we should be holding ourselves, our workplaces, our friends, family, community,
and our country as a whole too. We should be like,
I'm prouder of being in a country if we care
about our first nations people and we learn about our
first nation's history, and maybe for people that starts and
(18:00):
engaging in events or content during National Reconciliation, we go
through a wrap at their own workplace, and that can
only ever be a positive.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Thing, definitely.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Reconciliation Week is a week National Reconciliation Week the twenty
seventh of May to the third of June. So the
start of it commences on the twenty seventh of May,
and that is the anniversary of the nineteen sixty seven referendum,
which was a referendum that saw over ninety percent of
Australians that voted to give the Australian government power to
(18:30):
make laws for Aboriginal intoatreland people and recognize them in
the census.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
I don't think we've ever had that same ninety percent
result ever. Again, not even in marriage quality we didn't get.
I think it was like, well, it was fifty something
or sixty something. We've never received a result like that
in a what's it called a sense sorry referendum referendum,
Like that's I think incredible.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Yeah, And then I commemorating at the end of Reconcilation
Week on the third of June is the commemoration of
the Australian High Court decision that delivered the Marbo decision,
which was the culmination of Eddie Marbo's challenge to the
legal fiction of Terrannalius to the land belonging to no
(19:18):
one and leading to the legal recognition of Aberge and
Tarresha islander peoples as the traditional owners and custodians of
the land, which obviously paved the way for native title.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Which land rights in general huge. So like this week
is started and ended with really significant parts of not
just Aboriginal and Tosrue islander history, but Australian history. And
if you are someone who is listening to this podcast
and you don't know much about these significant dates, we
strongly urge you to go and read more about them. Like,
(19:52):
there's no way we're going to be able to educate
you on everything in this podcast. But like, isn't that
just crazy that nineteen sixty is when we were able
to become actual citizens of the country that we have
been in for over sixty thousand years.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Yeah, but it's interesting even unpacking that right citizens out
of the country, like, well, should that have been.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Fitting into the colonial structure, but like.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
Which brings up the whole.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
But it allows us to have laws that are more
focused towards us, which yes, means that there are laws
that are unfairly targeted towards us than we absolutely have
seen that happen, but also laws that can protect us,
protect our lands, support our community, all of those sorts
of things.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
And that's the thing, one way or another.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Yeah, nothing's ever simple. Yeah, so pros and cons again,
but the power that came with citizenship bought the power
of the vote, which made politicians give a fuck in
the first place. And again that's probably a good example
of something not really coming probably from a really positive
(20:58):
place in the end, but it's like, boy, better start
worrying about Abrashnal Island and stuff, because I sure do
need their votes, and there's a bunch of them. And
then eventually it turns into significant political figures who have
like pushed for really positive things to happen. So go
and read more about those if you haven't already. Moving
on to the theme of this year's National Reconciliational Week.
(21:21):
So every year there is a theme. You can go
and look up the previous themes if you would like.
This year the theme is be Brave and Make Change.
I guess what comes to mind for you when you
hear that theme that.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Feels like a call to action to non Indigenous Australians.
I see that as like stop hesitating, don't be scared,
do something, but.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
Make change. I feel like that it's almost like be.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Brave is for non Indigenous strains and make change is
for First Nations people. But then it could also be
flipped the other way. So yeah, I think it's a
great thing. Yeah, And I know there's a lot of
mobs that worked really hard, totally behind these things. And yeah,
I find it like if it feels particularly National Reconciliation
(22:13):
Week that is about non Indigenous Australians.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
And your role in it, what can you do to
push everyone's individual journey and also our journey as a
country forward. So my initial thought when I thought when
I read be Brave, Make Change was I didn't want
it to lend itself to this like white savior narrative,
and I didn't want to be like, oh, I'm so
(22:36):
brave because I shared a National Reconciliation Week on my
social tile on my Instagram. Like, that's not what we're
talking about when we say be brave. We're talking about
significant change that can be you know, micro, but it
can also be big political change. Attending rallies, being brave
(22:57):
enough to call out racism, to like hold your workplace
accountable for its relationship with First Nations communities and First
Nations employees. So this is what I think it's really
talking about when it talks about brave change. We're calling
for you to do the work. Yeah, I think is
what I think when I hear that.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
When I've gone and had a little quick read around
what the intention of the theme is and I might
read it out to you. So National Reconciliation. The National
Reconciliation Week twenty twenty three theme is be Brave, Make Change.
It's a challenge to all Australians individuals, families, communities, organizations
and government to be brave and tackle the unfinished business
(23:40):
of reconciliation so we can make change for the benefit
of all Australians. Last year, Reconciliation Australia encouraged all Australians
to take action not just in Reconciliation Week, but every
week of the year. They saw unprecedented response to their
suggested actions that it's every day and for braver action.
(24:02):
So this year they're asking everyone to make change, beginning
with brave actions in their daily lives.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
And I get that.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah, I think that's like it's a fantastic theme and
I hope that it reaches a lot of people, and
I hope that there are a bunch of allies listening
to this podcast. Who you know, let this be your
reminder that you have a significant role in this and like,
thank you for being here, thank you for listening to
Queer First Nations content. Now go and you know, share
(24:35):
this with as many people as you can and sit
down and have a conversation with those around you about
like what are the actions and the changes that I
can make personally around me.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
I don't think it's imposing that the White Night Savior stuff,
and particularly people shouldn't take it as a reason to
start trying to become a White Night Savior either. What
I think it is is not to hesitate in those
moments that a lot of people do have that they
look back.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
And like, shit, I should have said something at that moment.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Or I could have stopped that person doing that, or
I could have you know, asked that ask that person
if they were okay after a microaggression moment, things like
that as well as you know, contributing to the larger
progression as well. It doesn't have it doesn't have to
be a brave thing. It could you be just who
you are and what you do in your life. But
(25:27):
if you need a little push, then do it.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Do you have anything else to say before we finish
up the episode.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
Nah, just thanks for hanging in there and.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Me, But I mean, if you if you need to
hear it. I was actually thanks for hanging.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
In there just saying no, but but thanks for joining
us on today's episode. You can find us on anywhere
you get your podcasts at coming Out Black, b lak
on Instagram, send us a send us an email if
you if you prefer at Coming Out Black at gmail
dot com.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
If you have ideas for podcast episodes, We're gonna start
working on season three very very soon, so we're really
excited about that. If you have a story you want
to share, please get in contact with us, or even
if you just have some you know, like oh I
really like the episode or here's something I had. I
think last time we upload an episode, I got a
message from someone They're like, hey, I just finished listening
to the most recent podcast. I just wanted to say this,
(26:23):
and they just like shared their sort of story from that,
and we love receiving those as well.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
So definitely.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
And I feel like, if you've got any stories from
the first Nations Quick community that is around you, I'd
love to Yeah, we love to bring more guests in,
have you and share yan There's so many more stories
that I'm really looking forward to us being able to share.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Yeah, And I guess go and be brave and make change.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Yeah, do it all right, See you next time.
This podcast is recorded on Stolen Land. We acknowledge and
pay our respects to our elders, past, present, and for
future generations.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hi. I'm a Teka and I'm Courtney and we're two
Queer First Nations women passionate about representation for our community.
We created this podcast to share our stories. We want
you to join us on the journey.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
You're listening to Coming Out Black? Hello, having a good time?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Yeah we are, we are having a good time. Welcome
or welcome back to another episode of Coming Out Black.
Today is actually a really significant, I think an important
episode because it is ouring during National Reconciliation Week. For
those of you who might not know much about the week, Courtney,
do you want to tell us a bit about it?
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Reconciliation Week is a time for all Australians to learn
about our shared history, culture and achievements and to explore
how each of us can contribute to achieving reconciliation in Australia.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Let's unpack that.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yeah, let's I think it's an important week and it
allows us to facilitate a lot of important conversations. You know,
you have a lot of panel events, specific content that
comes out for National Reconciliation Week, which I think is
really good. But obviously there's some complexity around the actual
(01:27):
word reconciliation.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Correct, and we get to actually like unpack that word
without saying the word unpacked a million times.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Just one more time unpacked.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Yeah. I think what's really important is that we unpack
the word reconciliation because it's quite contentious I think in
our community, non Indigenous community, in the indigenous community, in
even in the global First Nations community as well. Reconciliation
implies that there was a conciliation beforehand. But I want
(02:00):
to pull out Oxford Dixon, go on, maybe the dictionary we.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Should just start all calling it that now, like if
anyone has a copy at home, just go stick over.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
It ox Oxen.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Okay, Well, if we go with the colonial definition from
Oxford Languages. First definition is the restoration.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Of friendly relations. I don't know if that hits.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
The little okay or the action.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Of making one view or belief compatible with another. That's
a merit, that has a merit? What is reconciliation? Definition
from Reconciliation Australia. At its heart, reconciliation is about strengthening
relationships between Aboriginal and to Australia, islander people's and non
indigenous peoples for the benefit of all Australians.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
What do we think.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
I like that last one the best, and I think
there's obviously been some thought through a first nation's lens,
because you're right, the idea or the word reconciliation kind
of says that we work together in the first place,
and if you know anything about Australian history, from the
get go, it was a very other you're bad, get
(03:19):
out of here, or you don't even exist in the
first place. So I think that creates a little bit
of complexity, as you know, most things in Australia at
the moment or in general, because we have such a
complex history. So I think, you know, that doesn't quite
do justice to our history, but there still is merit
(03:40):
in the idea of you know, coming together, working together
for a better Australia.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Yeah. I almost feel like the word reconciliation can be
kind of perceived as quite.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Skin deep. You know, it's not.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
It doesn't have much about it, maybe because it's hard
to actually kind of encapie the progression or the movement
in one word, and maybe reconciliation was the word that
started it. I do know that the Prayer for the
Reconciliation was like the first first kind of moment in
(04:16):
quote unquote so called Australia's history, and it was called
Prayer for Reconciliation and that was back in nineteen I
don't know, nine ninety three, So the first time there
was a National Reconciliation Week it was nineteen.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Ninety six and it was a religious thing.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Yeah, well it started as a religious thing back in
nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Interesting. Yeah, given how much damage the church has done, yeah,
impacting First Nations culture and people and the role that
the church played, and you know a lot of missions
were set up as churches basically correct. That's really interesting.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
You didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
No, it's an interesting one. And like I said, it's
surface level. It doesn't necessarily encapsulate everything that it's supposed to.
But maybe that was the only word that someone had
for it back then, or a word that's not as
threatening as equality or equiting back when that movement started.
But it's an interesting one because you know, all of
(05:22):
the injustices that it has occurred historically and it's still
occurring today, can't be acknowledged. I think as part of reconciliation.
I think it's like, I think a lot of people
would agree that we haven't done all of the learning
and unpacking all of that history yet to just associate
with reconciliation.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
I think it's just like.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
We've got that whole truth telling peace to do because
I'm still meaning people today that don't know what happened. Yeah,
of my age who are well educated, went to you know,
a very good high school, great university and can't sit
and tell me about the Stolen Generation or.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Frontier Wars or yeah, like it's crazy because like, yeah, propaganda,
but it's like the government shame or school curriculum, right girl,
what's that wording that collective amnesia?
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yeah, and like obviously generations before us as well a
part of that.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
So then yeah, well, I think that it's important in
I think we can show by example in this podcast
episode that in order to embrace our idea of reconciliation today,
we need to provide that context, and we need to
recognize that we have not come from a place where
we were together in the first place, or that we
(06:43):
were like holding hands and walking as one and then
something happened. And I think also like reconciliation, in my head,
can sometimes lend itself to the idea of you know,
if you have a fight with your sibling and you're like, oh,
look we're reconciled, but really you just like agreed to
disagree on something doesn't necessarily mean that we need to
work change or any of those sorts of things. But
acknowledging the context in which we're talking about and using
(07:05):
that language and maybe shifting it to reconciliation in terms
of what we hope to come together, but understanding we
haven't started from a place where we were together.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Yeah, I guess for me, SIUs, it's like the power
dynamics of that even that word.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
It's just like, oh, we fucked up, but we're trying
to fix it.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
You know, it wasn't our fault, but you know now
we're trying to sorry, get passionate. Now we're trying to
you know, make things better and reconcile. Whereas I don't
know if it's that simple.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
But what do you think is more appropriate?
Speaker 3 (07:40):
It's a really good one. I don't know. And that's
the thing like it.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
I think that leads to community consultation. For you know,
when you say it in so many different areas where
our community continues to face traum moral challenges, or the
ongoing implications of colonization and attempt at genocide. Answers lie
within community, and given we've just found well, I just
(08:03):
found out that it's started as like a religious prayer
for reconciliation. Maybe it's started on the wrong foot and
it should have grown from community. But also I'm like,
I'm sure a lot of people are like I'm sick
of reaching out of hand for the rest of like
in quotations White Australia to meet us halfway or finally
(08:23):
walk with us.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Yeah, I think it's a it's probably a colonial concept
of just trying to encapsulate it in one word in
the first place, because I don't think it accounts for
all of the work that probably needs to be done,
and we've probably missed out on doing as a society.
And maybe we've missed a bit of it because we're
both only in our mid twenties, mid to late twenties.
(08:48):
But like, yeah, because I think about and it's escaping
me in a second, but it's about to come back
really strong.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
It was a really good point. I kind of look
at you, Why fuck it was actually really good end
of bitch no, because it was.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Like, well, you're saying prior to it, yes, okay, here,
I am here, I am excellent.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
So our laws in our constitution, which I know is
a big word right now, as well as policies, procedures,
particularly you know, in government relations, and a lot of
things that we do are all reflective of the United
Nations Declaration of Human Rights. Now, there is another declaration
(09:34):
that this country hasn't necessarily wrestled with too much, and
that's the United Nations Declarations of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples,
which it took us a while there to sign on
to it, but we did, I think back in twenty
and eleven you can.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
In fact, I think we were one of the last
sort of countries involved to do that.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
But we currently don't have a society that reflects any
sort of progression actually in upholding or achieving those rights.
So it's almost like we should actually go back to
untie some of it, or ensure that we're tying that.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Declaration into the things that we're doing.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
So, I know, wrap the word rap can be a
little bit of a contentious word. I feel like there's
a lot of need for it, a lot of benefit
from it.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
The structure that provides to people, especially again in quotations
white people meaning non first nations, can be really helpful
because I know a lot of people are like scared
to enter this space, afraid to do the wrong thing,
even if they have good intentions. And then of course
there's a huge group of people who would just like
get over it, what are you talking about? You know?
(10:46):
So I think REP frameworks can and even just the
weak national reconciliation we can provide us with a lot
of positives, but just you know, we need to acknowledge
the complexity of it as well.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
One hundred percent, and particularly because because it's something that
I guess anyone can sign up to and get involved in,
and no doubt collectively, as we've had corporate, commercial and
non government organizations signing up to this journey undergoing that
educational movement, I think that's been a mass education opportunity
(11:20):
for the country that no one else gets to have.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
I think, like you and I.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Both work in spaces that have wraps, we're both written apps,
we're both critiqued wraps and stuff, But like it can
be that Trojan horse I think in society, because when
else are you're going to be able to sit someone
down who Maybe it's not that they don't care about it,
it's just more they're so uninformed that they don't realize
(11:44):
how much they need to educate themselves or understand, which
is whack because like we're obviously in such dined and
we're like two hundred years later on this, but I
think I'm starting to work out that we've got to
meet people where they are and totally, yeah, there's a
lot of spoon fitting, a lot of bullshit that comes
along with that, which is really important.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Draining, and I think unfortunately, sometimes not that it's up
to us, but unfortunately First nations people's end up having
to do the work of spoon feeding information, slowly culturally educating,
slowly dismantling these colonial structures and mindsets in order to
finally get people to say, like, oh my god, I
(12:25):
can't believe I didn't know this, This is really important
to me, and then they start taking their own steps
towards it, and it's a shame that has to happen.
But I honestly can't think of a way to shift
that and to change that. Sorry, I also thought for
anyone who's listening who may not know what a RAP is,
it's a Reconciliation Action plan and so it's I guess,
(12:46):
a structured document with a whole bunch of promises and
deliverables essentially that organizations and businesses sign up to and
say we're gonna do all these things because we want
to uplift support in hopefully walk alongside with and engage
First Nations communities and peoples in whatever it is they're doing.
So if you didn't know what that document was, that's
(13:08):
what it is.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Yeah, and it's you know, I see them as trojan
horses for change, and.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Like some people see these things as you know, things
that hit their corporate social responsibility charters or things that
they've signed on to do as a business, so you
have to do it, which is, you know, whatever you
think of that. But people don't realize what they're signing
out for and then all of a sudden it's like, oh,
we have to do cultural capability training. We've signed on
(13:37):
as an organization to have an Indigenous advisory group that
brings so many more First Nations people into the organization
that probably weren't there beforehand, and I can definitely see
this uplift and this recognition and like value, not that
we need to be valued by non Indigenous people or organizations,
(13:58):
corporations or organizations, but being recognized I think in that
way and provided that leadership and guidance.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
I think is really progressive.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
And I think that's like uplifting and providing opportunity for
I guess our generation, which is reflective of what the
generations before us, before us have been banging on the
door or pleading for.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
And maybe I've lost a little hope and feel cynical
of the system.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
But now it's like bang, like there is change happening
quickly and it's going quick Now. There's been organizations that
have been recognized as these leaders in reconciliation and contributors,
but then they've really messed up. And that's I think
where people get a little bit nervous about it because
some of the some of the organizations that have really
(14:46):
done a lot of injustice to our people's historically and
currently previously were awarded high recognition in this space, not
for a lack of that they deserved it or that
they worked for it.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Something shift after that, Yeah, and there's there's one thing
to make mistakes and if you're a massive business or organization,
you're going to mess up and community will let you know.
What's important is do you listen and do you learn
from that? Or are you like we've been told not
to mind this significant Indigenous heritage site, but we're going
(15:22):
to continue doing that even though we actively have a
rap not naming names. But I think everyone knows what
you're talking about it.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
But it's interesting though because the then' like, what's the
what's the punishment if if you mess up on a
wrap you lose it? And then I think that's probably
where it gets a little bit difficult because you can
only do so much as reconciliation Australia, I suppose when
there's still a power imbalance. Yeah, but then I guess
because of that that pressure, I suppose of now organization society,
(15:50):
we're all able to hold other people more accountable because
we are upskilled, confident and have the ability now to
articulate or.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Recognize what that actually means.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
I think the amount of corporate and organizational pressure that
got put on that organization or sponsorship's lost or partnerships
torn up because they wanted to uphold the fact that
they have placed more value in Fast Nations community than
money is integral. Like, I thought that was really the
only good thing about that situation, and I wouldn't even
(16:22):
say it was a good thing, but it gives me
a little bit of hope that people don't necessarily completely
lose all of their values because of that dollar sign.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Yeah, totally. Sometimes I don't care why people do it
as long as they're doing it, because I think sometimes
particularly in the corporated, I think rap journeys start because
they think it's the right thing to do in terms
of how they appear to the public. But then through
that being the starting point, people do start to learn
(16:53):
and then realize I actually do really care about this,
and it shifts to being an authentic thing that people
are doing. So that's why sometimes I'm like, you know what,
if you're just doing this to look good, go ahead,
and I hope you learn something along the way and
it shifts.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Yeah, there's like I don't know if it's a reconciliation
movement or if it's the rise of First Nations voices,
particularly in social media or medium paradigms that we all
consume it, but that does that has been coming from
RAPS as well, So it's like, not how do want
to use the word normalizing it, but it's like I
almost feel like I'm more proud to be in a
(17:28):
country when there's people that really care a lot more
about this, and I know that's my probably my bubble
that I'm like more happy. Yeah, and then when it
gets popped and like damn shit, people are still not
great horrible.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah, but this is like, this is the standard that
we should be holding ourselves, our workplaces, our friends, family, community,
and our country as a whole too. We should be like,
I'm prouder of being in a country if we care
about our first nations people and we learn about our
first nation's history, and maybe for people that starts and
(18:00):
engaging in events or content during National Reconciliation, we go
through a wrap at their own workplace, and that can
only ever be a positive.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Thing, definitely.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Reconciliation Week is a week National Reconciliation Week the twenty
seventh of May to the third of June. So the
start of it commences on the twenty seventh of May,
and that is the anniversary of the nineteen sixty seven referendum,
which was a referendum that saw over ninety percent of
Australians that voted to give the Australian government power to
(18:30):
make laws for Aboriginal intoatreland people and recognize them in
the census.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
I don't think we've ever had that same ninety percent
result ever. Again, not even in marriage quality we didn't get.
I think it was like, well, it was fifty something
or sixty something. We've never received a result like that
in a what's it called a sense sorry referendum referendum,
Like that's I think incredible.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Yeah, And then I commemorating at the end of Reconcilation
Week on the third of June is the commemoration of
the Australian High Court decision that delivered the Marbo decision,
which was the culmination of Eddie Marbo's challenge to the
legal fiction of Terrannalius to the land belonging to no
(19:18):
one and leading to the legal recognition of Aberge and
Tarresha islander peoples as the traditional owners and custodians of
the land, which obviously paved the way for native title.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Which land rights in general huge. So like this week
is started and ended with really significant parts of not
just Aboriginal and Tosrue islander history, but Australian history. And
if you are someone who is listening to this podcast
and you don't know much about these significant dates, we
strongly urge you to go and read more about them. Like,
(19:52):
there's no way we're going to be able to educate
you on everything in this podcast. But like, isn't that
just crazy that nineteen sixty is when we were able
to become actual citizens of the country that we have
been in for over sixty thousand years.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Yeah, but it's interesting even unpacking that right citizens out
of the country, like, well, should that have been.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Fitting into the colonial structure, but like.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
Which brings up the whole.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
But it allows us to have laws that are more
focused towards us, which yes, means that there are laws
that are unfairly targeted towards us than we absolutely have
seen that happen, but also laws that can protect us,
protect our lands, support our community, all of those sorts
of things.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
And that's the thing, one way or another.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Yeah, nothing's ever simple. Yeah, so pros and cons again,
but the power that came with citizenship bought the power
of the vote, which made politicians give a fuck in
the first place. And again that's probably a good example
of something not really coming probably from a really positive
(20:58):
place in the end, but it's like, boy, better start
worrying about Abrashnal Island and stuff, because I sure do
need their votes, and there's a bunch of them. And
then eventually it turns into significant political figures who have
like pushed for really positive things to happen. So go
and read more about those if you haven't already. Moving
on to the theme of this year's National Reconciliational Week.
(21:21):
So every year there is a theme. You can go
and look up the previous themes if you would like.
This year the theme is be Brave and Make Change.
I guess what comes to mind for you when you
hear that theme that.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Feels like a call to action to non Indigenous Australians.
I see that as like stop hesitating, don't be scared,
do something, but.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
Make change. I feel like that it's almost like be.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Brave is for non Indigenous strains and make change is
for First Nations people. But then it could also be
flipped the other way. So yeah, I think it's a
great thing. Yeah, And I know there's a lot of
mobs that worked really hard, totally behind these things. And yeah,
I find it like if it feels particularly National Reconciliation
(22:13):
Week that is about non Indigenous Australians.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
And your role in it, what can you do to
push everyone's individual journey and also our journey as a
country forward. So my initial thought when I thought when
I read be Brave, Make Change was I didn't want
it to lend itself to this like white savior narrative,
and I didn't want to be like, oh, I'm so
(22:36):
brave because I shared a National Reconciliation Week on my
social tile on my Instagram. Like, that's not what we're
talking about when we say be brave. We're talking about
significant change that can be you know, micro, but it
can also be big political change. Attending rallies, being brave
(22:57):
enough to call out racism, to like hold your workplace
accountable for its relationship with First Nations communities and First
Nations employees. So this is what I think it's really
talking about when it talks about brave change. We're calling
for you to do the work. Yeah, I think is
what I think when I hear that.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
When I've gone and had a little quick read around
what the intention of the theme is and I might
read it out to you. So National Reconciliation. The National
Reconciliation Week twenty twenty three theme is be Brave, Make Change.
It's a challenge to all Australians individuals, families, communities, organizations
and government to be brave and tackle the unfinished business
(23:40):
of reconciliation so we can make change for the benefit
of all Australians. Last year, Reconciliation Australia encouraged all Australians
to take action not just in Reconciliation Week, but every
week of the year. They saw unprecedented response to their
suggested actions that it's every day and for braver action.
(24:02):
So this year they're asking everyone to make change, beginning
with brave actions in their daily lives.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
And I get that.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah, I think that's like it's a fantastic theme and
I hope that it reaches a lot of people, and
I hope that there are a bunch of allies listening
to this podcast. Who you know, let this be your
reminder that you have a significant role in this and like,
thank you for being here, thank you for listening to
Queer First Nations content. Now go and you know, share
(24:35):
this with as many people as you can and sit
down and have a conversation with those around you about
like what are the actions and the changes that I
can make personally around me.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
I don't think it's imposing that the White Night Savior stuff,
and particularly people shouldn't take it as a reason to
start trying to become a White Night Savior either. What
I think it is is not to hesitate in those
moments that a lot of people do have that they
look back.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
And like, shit, I should have said something at that moment.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Or I could have stopped that person doing that, or
I could have you know, asked that ask that person
if they were okay after a microaggression moment, things like
that as well as you know, contributing to the larger
progression as well. It doesn't have it doesn't have to
be a brave thing. It could you be just who
you are and what you do in your life. But
(25:27):
if you need a little push, then do it.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Do you have anything else to say before we finish
up the episode.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
Nah, just thanks for hanging in there and.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Me, But I mean, if you if you need to
hear it. I was actually thanks for hanging.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
In there just saying no, but but thanks for joining
us on today's episode. You can find us on anywhere
you get your podcasts at coming Out Black, b lak
on Instagram, send us a send us an email if
you if you prefer at Coming Out Black at gmail
dot com.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
If you have ideas for podcast episodes, We're gonna start
working on season three very very soon, so we're really
excited about that. If you have a story you want
to share, please get in contact with us, or even
if you just have some you know, like oh I
really like the episode or here's something I had. I
think last time we upload an episode, I got a
message from someone They're like, hey, I just finished listening
to the most recent podcast. I just wanted to say this,
(26:23):
and they just like shared their sort of story from that,
and we love receiving those as well.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
So definitely.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
And I feel like, if you've got any stories from
the first Nations Quick community that is around you, I'd
love to Yeah, we love to bring more guests in,
have you and share yan There's so many more stories
that I'm really looking forward to us being able to share.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Yeah, And I guess go and be brave and make change.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Yeah, do it all right, See you next time.
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