September 24, 2025 • 23 mins
Grudges can feel great to hold – they're juicy, self-righteous and satisfying, but are they bad for us? From petty annoyances (a lost car mat at the car wash) to family rifts that span decades, in this episode we consider forgiveness, radical acceptance, and whether every conflict can, or should, be resolved.
The Double A Chattery podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute professional health care services, including the giving of medical advice. No doctor/patient relationship is formed and this podcast is no substitute for professional psychological or other medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. The use of information in this podcast is at the listener’s own risk. Listeners should seek the help of their health care professionals for any medical conditions.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is for general information only and should not
be taken as psychological advice. Listeners should consult with their
healthcare professionals for specific medical advice.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Well. Hello, I'm Amanda Kella.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Hello'm Anita McGregor, and welcome to Double.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
A Chattery and today, Anita, you brought something very interesting
to the table about grudges.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
I think that the idea of grudges is so interesting
and I was reading somewhere that people hold on the
average of six grudges.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Grudge is a funny word when you say grudge.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
It's one of those words that you kind of go, yeah,
doesn't sit well in my head.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Which is almost like an automatic payer, where it sounds
like it is, yeah, six in your whole lifetime or
all at once, all.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
At once at any one time, we tend to be
holding six grudges.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
What do you define as a grudge?
Speaker 1 (01:09):
I mean, that's a good question. It's often that there
has been a perceived slight, So it's it could be
anything from you know, the waiter at the restaurant that
you were out didn't take your order or got you
the wrong order, or you know, ignored you or something
and you know, or it could be a big one.
(01:30):
It could be like often it happens in families where
you hold grudges against you know that that terrible uncle
Sam who you know, had that terrible situation at Christmas
and everybody is holding a grudge against him for years.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Sometimes so it's bigger than a myth, but less than
a giant fallout, or a grudge can be a fallout.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
I think a grudge can be a followed but I
think it really encompasses a large array of feelings and situations.
So where and what I really enjoyed is that we
went to our listeners to go and ask them about grudges,
and a lot of people they were describing like that,
(02:18):
that wide variety of situations, and some of them were
maybe to us, felt like little things. Like somebody was
saying that they'd you know, car wash had lost a
mat of theirs and that they just they just feel,
you know, years after that they just it just pisses
them off and they're never going to go back to
(02:39):
this particular car wash. But it can also be people
also described those really big situations where families and hurt
feelings and you know, love love times.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
I loved how many of these started with, I don't
normally hold a grudge, but I think we you know,
I'm not a grudge holder, but I like the honesty
of Linda who might of me, of me, she said,
I'm an elephant whilst I don't hold onto the anger
that ultimately that emotion will be toxic, but I take
the active measures to dissipate that. But I never forget,
(03:11):
she said, I don't love that aspect of my personality,
but I've long ago made peace with the fact that it's.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Part of my brain wiring.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Is it? Are we wrong to hold them?
Speaker 1 (03:22):
This is a thing that I'm really curious about, And
this is where my mind started going, is thinking about
when does a grudge and like, because we can, we
can hold a grudge and anger around a situation for
an enormously long time, you know, the generations sometimes And
(03:46):
and yet is it still a grudge if you have forgiven,
potentially even or that the emotion of it has dissipated,
but you haven't forgotten, is that still a grudge? Like
if I've you know, if I just let's say I
had a friendship and something happened in that friendship and
it went sideways, and I hold a grudge against that
(04:09):
person for something that they've done. But after a while,
like I'm I'm like, I just don't really care about it,
and it's still vaguely pissed off. Well is it vague?
Like I might not even be vaguely pissed off about it,
like I But is it still a grudge if I
just choose like that person's not my friend anymore? Like
is it like is that a grudge? Like? Like, this
(04:30):
is where I struggle is does a grudge have to
have that emotional component to it? Does it have to
have that that nature? I'm unforgiving of a situation I
don't know, Like this is this is what I thought
was really intriguing when I think about it.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
My mother had a fallout with a woman I was youngest.
I'm not even sure what it was about. Actually, it
was about the pilot strike in Australia and I think
was the night eighties or the seventies or something. This
one had been a very dear friend of mum's and
I don't know what happened. So it wasn't even an
emotional discussion. It wasn't about that you've hurt my feelings,
(05:10):
but through a conversation about that. Mum held on too,
that grudge, I think until she passed away.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
And what turns like a you know, I had an
argument with somebody? What turns that into a grudge.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
It's almost like chronic pain. It's like an ingrown hair
pointing at your mustache now, like.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
How I beated it today?
Speaker 2 (05:31):
What I could hear Bo Derek of the Chin World.
But it's like a small ingrown hair that was the
initial thing, and after a while it just becomes a
giant red lump or chronic pain. You don't even know
what it's about anymore. But it still sits there.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
It just sits there.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
But as a psychologist, would you help someone and not
that or you say, look, that's human behavior.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Well, you know, it was interesting when I was looking
at the idea about grudges and a lot of the
research about how grudges are really unhealthy for the grudge holder,
you know, like it's kind of like if I have
a grudge against somebody, they might not even know that
I'm holding that grudge, and if I'm sitting there angry
about it and frustrated and you know, having all these
(06:16):
you know, terrible negative emotions about about the situation, potentially
about the other person, even maybe about myself and my
own actions in this situation that it's not healthy. Now,
it's the initial thing I you know, I had a
disagreement with somebody or they did something that annoyed me,
and I got angry. There's that initial dopamine hit that
(06:38):
you get that go it's juicy, it feels good, juicy,
it feels great, and it's kind of like, wow, look
how right and look how righteous I am in this situation.
And then but with time it just becomes pretty corrosive.
So as a psychologist, you know, you don't you want
to understand what it was that precipitated this grudge, Like
(07:00):
what caused this? What was it? This? Was it a
moral outrage? Was it? You know? Were you? You know what?
What else could be going on? And you want to
kind of take that apart. But yeah, you want to
move that person towards a place of forgiveness and a
place of letting go of that emotion.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Because you'd never describe the feelings someone had for an
abuser as having a grudge against them. That's not what
a grudge is. Is it like having negative thoughts about someone?
It could be.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
I mean, I think that there are people who have
been abused or in situations where they hold a grudge
against the person who such a small world word for
such a big and maybe maybe that's what people you
know who responded who said that they felt grudge was
a small world a word. But it is interesting that
(07:55):
the the you know, the idea about you know, what
do we call it and what do we do with it?
Is that like grudges, seemed to have the for me,
the sense part of the definition is that you're going
to hould it for a.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
While, Yes, you know, sit in it for a while
and take pleasure in it.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Yeah, But I don't know. I mean, for the grudges
that I've held, there's a sense, that immediate sense of
pleasure in it, but it for me, it quickly goes off,
does it for? Is it the sense for you?
Speaker 2 (08:29):
I have? I have a thing that Jones you can
I do the radio show with his identified as a boomerang.
So I'll say something that I feel very justified in
saying the same. I'm having a discussion argument with Harley,
I'll lay my case and then, because I hate conflict,
as JONESI said, he just waits for the boomerang to
(08:49):
come back, and I apologize for what I've said, so
I never get to own the emotion or keep or
keep the grudge.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
So you get the kick. But then you're media and
I feel guilt.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
It's guilt, Yeah, guilt, and did I did I go
too hard even though I feel fully justified and then
needing to need to be liked. And I'm sorry everyone, Sorry, sorry,
I've said all this even though it's quite justified. So
I take my own power back again, take my own
power away again.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Away again. Yeah, that's that's so. Have you ever held
a grudge for a long time?
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Yes, I think I have. Like I'll do all that,
then I'll be angry at them again, but I won't
say so. I'm a sulker and a grudge holder.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
And it's interesting that that in the Lookie Lou that
I was doing around grudges that they talked about that
there's some cultural aspects to grudges that in like individualistic
societies like Australia, like America, like Canada. Is that is
that we tend to, uh, you know, confront the person
(09:54):
who pisses us off. That's that's you know, I will
have that open conflict. I will have that discussion and
then I will hold the grudge, whereas people and more
collectivist kind of cultures will never say anything and then
we'll just hold it privately.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
What's an example of a collectionist.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Collectivist most Asian countries, so you know, places where the
sense of community and connection is really important, like where
family is more important than the individual, would be an
example of that. And so it's it's interesting. So it
might look really really sanguine on this on the surface
of it, like everything's fine, everything's fine, But you find
(10:32):
out if if you scratch the surface a little bit,
is that you'd find that there was just a hotbed
of resentment and grudge holding an anger in a lot
of these cultures, whereas you know in you know, it's
our culture that we tend to go and say, yeah,
let's just have it out. I'm surprised at that because
(10:55):
there's a lot of passive aggressive behavior.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
And how he ever, talks about his own family and
he said he knows that he's passive aggressive, and he
said he sometimes wishes they were from an Irish family
or whatever. Then everything is said. But often in Anglo
Saxon communities. I do think the ones the families we
grew up with were all quiet and demure and no
one had it out with anybody, but it was all
just writhing under the surface.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
And which I think is really interesting because I think
that from a psychological perspective, like I was taught, and
I'm actually just rethinking this as we're talking about this,
is that, you know, if there is something, you just
want to talk about it, you just want to get
it out there, you want to say it, you want
(11:38):
to go and try to resolve it. And I in
lots of ways I think that that's probably the way ahead.
But is there you know, I don't know, maybe maybe
men of the collectivist culture where you just let everything
similar under the surface and everybody just on the surface
seems to get along and they and there's no you know, issues,
(12:01):
I mean there are.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
I don't pick the scab. We've spoken about this before,
haven't we. That you think in an ideal society everyone
just says what they think. But you can't live like that, aren't.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
No, it would be like that, you know. I'm sure
that there's been movies made of that horror thing about
everybody could read everybody's mind.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
No one wants that.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Nobody wants but to end a grudge.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
And we've spoken about this in various themes. We've spoken
about you need to meet someone in the middle, and
who amongst us is going to be strong enough, will
big enough or brave enough to go in and say
me a kopper, I'm sorry, talk to me.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yeah. I think that there's two ways of ending a grudge.
One is exactly the way that you gun hit gun
for yeah, writing shot through the forehead. But it's I
think that there's two ways. One is to kind of
meet with the person that you know, you feel has
has slighted you in some way and to try to
to resolve it. I could never do that. That's the
(13:03):
other way. The other way is actually is to just
recognize that holding a grudge is actually unhealthy for you
and to actually move towards a sense of I'm going
to forgive this situation. This is more about me than
about them, you know, And we've talked about this before
about that radical acceptance is that you know this person,
(13:26):
you know they feel, they may feel very righteous in
what they said or did, and I just need to
accept that that's who they are, and I may make
a choice about not being a friend with them, or
limiting my contact with a family member or whatever it
might be, but recognizing that it. You know, it's great
when there can be two to tango, but it's not
(13:47):
always the way that it's going to be. And the
reality is is that you know, it's not Things are
not always resolvable. I think that they're going to be
because it really does take that willingness to be able
to have that conversation.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Because in pop culture, whether it's movies or TV or
whatever it is, and books, you see these grudges. You
can see the story arc, there's a misunderstanding, there's a flight,
someone's feelings are hurt, and you know, in an unexpected way,
on a deathbed or somewhere, that is going to resolve.
But as you're saying, Edith, that's not actually how real.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Life works, not always, you know, I think about I've
been thinking a lot about a situation where I had
with some colleagues where long story short, there was a
situation where I felt that this was people that I
had met as peers we were doing some work together,
(14:47):
and that I felt that they had well basically spoken
behind my back, and that they had talked about me,
and it was really hurtful, and I confronted that situation,
I thought in a diplomatic way, but just saying I
thought it was unfair. I didn't you know, I didn't
appreciate how that worked. And I basically it kind of
(15:10):
ended that that relationship with them. And it's not what
I would have wanted. I think that in essence. I
think I would have wanted it to be resolved. But
I think what happened is that if I look at it,
is that you know, I felt righteous and angry about
it and hurt and betrayed, and that they felt probably
(15:34):
the same way, and that there was very limited opportunity
to go and to resolve it. And so I mean
I was able to let it go. I mean, it's
in lots of ways because I recognized it wasn't healthy
for me to continue on with the emotion that I
was feeling with it. But it's you know, it's it's
(15:55):
not resolved. It just sits there as a you know, yeah,
as a little scab sitting.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
That was going to be the outcome. Would you have
brought it up in the first place or just dealt
with it?
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Yeah, I think I still would have because it would
have It was one of those situations that I think
would have festered. You know, I don't think I could
have taken that collectivist culture approach and just kind of
let it, you know, let it simmer underneath there without
without me doing or saying something. M It's yeah, but
it's it's hard, and it's in these are situations where
(16:29):
you know there can be some some bigger consequences.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
I fired off a text this morning about a work
situation that I normally wouldn't and it was early in
the morning, didn't have my armor on, and I'm now
feeling the boomerang. Yeah, I'm feeling I felt completely justified
in sending it. But I'm sorry if I've put people out.
Sorry everybody, Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry sorry.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
And what would happen if you didn't do the sorry
sorry sorry?
Speaker 2 (16:56):
If I hadn't sent it, well, no, like if you have,
I haven't said the sorry, sorry sorry. I'm just feeling
the sorry, sorry sorry. But now I've got to sit
out the consequences.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Ah, And that maybe that's part of it.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
You have to learn to sit in your own stink
for a while and feel the feels of stepping up,
and I'm trying to be better at at saying what
I feel in the moment.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yeah, and you know, having not having to kind of
deal with that, you know when that boomerang does happen
and you kind of go, oh, I've just I really
wanted something to happen from that situation. I wanted people
to hear, at the very least hear what I was
feeling and thinking about this decision. That it's interesting that
(17:51):
do you think that it makes people think when you
do the sorry, sorry, sorry, that they can dismiss your
initial concerns.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Try it.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
That's why I'm trying to not do the sorry, sorry, sorry.
Even something that happened with Jack and this isn't a
grudge because it's my son, but a place where he's
renting he wasn't taking. You know that they had an
inspection and it wasn't great, blah blah blah, and I
went hard on him, and then I.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Wanted I thought.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
I fought so hard to not text him the next
day and say, PS, I love you, love you, love you,
love you, love you, because I thought he knows that
and I don't can't weaken the emotion around what I
was you know, my first response, my reaction so my
own worst enemy sometimes and not being strong enough with
stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Now I can see that if you'd had a huge
overreaction to it, and you, you know, said things that
maybe were hurtful or you know, awful, that maybe the
idea might be I need to calm down a little
bit before I taxed. But I don't normally respond in
(19:00):
those moments. No, you don't generally do that, you know.
And often what my experience of you has been, Amanda,
is that you go, oh, I just went off on
this person, But you didn't. You were actually really thoughtful
and rational and and you know, so your issue is
more not the preparation stage. I need to kind of
(19:21):
calm down and make sure I'm not being insulting or difficult.
Yours is about I need to hold strong when I have.
When I have, you know, had the decided to share
something that I'm feeling. This has been a very good
therapy session. The bill's coming in.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
I was going to say, you better not invoice me
better not better not better not Well, look, maybe we
end with this comment.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
That said a grudge.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
I thought that's what you parked your car in. I
love that one. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
I knew you would appreciate that one. Can I just
also say I loved that my cust and Robin McGregor
had responded to this as well, and she's one of
my fellow Canadian. Love her. She's lovely, lovely, and she
she was like, no, I'm not a grudge holder, and
then she looked actually looked up the definition went yeah,
(20:14):
I guess I.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Am can't stand my cousin.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
No, I really really like Robin.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
I'm thinking from her point she's holding a grudge against.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
You, she could be.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
And I've really enjoyed this. Thank you as always. If
there's anything we've said that you'd like to respond to,
please let us know. Anita, what's your glimmer.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
My glimmer is something that I know you really love doing. Well.
It's not craft again, No, it's not craft. It's camping,
your second favorite thing in the entire world. For Father's
Day weekend, we went camping with with my husband and
with my son Connor and his wife Tyan. Of course
our little grandson Logan. And I've got to say it
(21:08):
is just so much fun camping with a two year old.
He was being ironic, No, I've got I've got to say,
like just he kept us active, he kept us busy,
we were. It was just so enjoyable. I mean it was.
It was absolutely glorious. I love I love camping. Love
camping with a two year old, especially when he's not
(21:28):
sleeping in my tent.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
And did you do what the only time I've ever
been camping with you drink Baileies in the morning, of course,
camping tea camping tea officer camping camping.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Well, it's for this called mornings, Amanda oh White twice.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
As we come into the warmer weather.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
And yours.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Well, I was on We've got a place down the
south coast, and I was there with my sons on
the weekend, which was just absolutely brilliant. And trying to
get the two of them free at the same weekend
took a lot of planning, but.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
It was just so grateful. I was so grateful to
have that.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Time with them as there, you know, twenty four and
twenty two and living their big lives and all of that.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
It was lovely.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
But when we first moved there or bought that place,
which is probably five years ago something like that, Harley
had bought these lights from Bunnings that jammed. There's really
cheap solar lights that he just jammed in along the
fence line.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Almost those ticky things, yes, plastic tiki things, plastic ones.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
And I just noticed on the weekend that all of
them are just still going strong. They really are, They
really are, And I just thought that was testament. It's
not easy for Harley to get there anymore. So often
I'm there on my own and I love that too,
a chance just to laugh, cry, drink a bottle of wine,
play my daggy playlists, all of that. But when friends
(22:53):
are down there and the boys, it has a different feel,
wonderful feel to it.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
But Harley will always there.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
And often that's what I cry about, is that he
can't be there anymore. But I see those lights and
the enduring nature of the optimism with which we shoved
them in, and knowing things are hard for him now,
but that is that's life, and the burst of light
that they still as soon as the sun goes down.
The steadiness of those still going is so symbolic of
(23:21):
Harley for me. So that's my glimmer. All right, Well,
I'm exhausted, how about you me too?
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Alright, go and drink tea. Let's go pictal tea.
This podcast is for general information only and should not
be taken as psychological advice. Listeners should consult with their
healthcare professionals for specific medical advice.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Well. Hello, I'm Amanda Kella.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Hello'm Anita McGregor, and welcome to Double.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
A Chattery and today, Anita, you brought something very interesting
to the table about grudges.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
I think that the idea of grudges is so interesting
and I was reading somewhere that people hold on the
average of six grudges.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Grudge is a funny word when you say grudge.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
It's one of those words that you kind of go, yeah,
doesn't sit well in my head.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Which is almost like an automatic payer, where it sounds
like it is, yeah, six in your whole lifetime or
all at once, all.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
At once at any one time, we tend to be
holding six grudges.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
What do you define as a grudge?
Speaker 1 (01:09):
I mean, that's a good question. It's often that there
has been a perceived slight, So it's it could be
anything from you know, the waiter at the restaurant that
you were out didn't take your order or got you
the wrong order, or you know, ignored you or something
and you know, or it could be a big one.
(01:30):
It could be like often it happens in families where
you hold grudges against you know that that terrible uncle
Sam who you know, had that terrible situation at Christmas
and everybody is holding a grudge against him for years.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Sometimes so it's bigger than a myth, but less than
a giant fallout, or a grudge can be a fallout.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
I think a grudge can be a followed but I
think it really encompasses a large array of feelings and situations.
So where and what I really enjoyed is that we
went to our listeners to go and ask them about grudges,
and a lot of people they were describing like that,
(02:18):
that wide variety of situations, and some of them were
maybe to us, felt like little things. Like somebody was
saying that they'd you know, car wash had lost a
mat of theirs and that they just they just feel,
you know, years after that they just it just pisses
them off and they're never going to go back to
(02:39):
this particular car wash. But it can also be people
also described those really big situations where families and hurt
feelings and you know, love love times.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
I loved how many of these started with, I don't
normally hold a grudge, but I think we you know,
I'm not a grudge holder, but I like the honesty
of Linda who might of me, of me, she said,
I'm an elephant whilst I don't hold onto the anger
that ultimately that emotion will be toxic, but I take
the active measures to dissipate that. But I never forget,
(03:11):
she said, I don't love that aspect of my personality,
but I've long ago made peace with the fact that it's.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Part of my brain wiring.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Is it? Are we wrong to hold them?
Speaker 1 (03:22):
This is a thing that I'm really curious about, And
this is where my mind started going, is thinking about
when does a grudge and like, because we can, we
can hold a grudge and anger around a situation for
an enormously long time, you know, the generations sometimes And
(03:46):
and yet is it still a grudge if you have forgiven,
potentially even or that the emotion of it has dissipated,
but you haven't forgotten, is that still a grudge? Like
if I've you know, if I just let's say I
had a friendship and something happened in that friendship and
it went sideways, and I hold a grudge against that
(04:09):
person for something that they've done. But after a while,
like I'm I'm like, I just don't really care about it,
and it's still vaguely pissed off. Well is it vague?
Like I might not even be vaguely pissed off about it,
like I But is it still a grudge if I
just choose like that person's not my friend anymore? Like
is it like is that a grudge? Like? Like, this
(04:30):
is where I struggle is does a grudge have to
have that emotional component to it? Does it have to
have that that nature? I'm unforgiving of a situation I
don't know, Like this is this is what I thought
was really intriguing when I think about it.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
My mother had a fallout with a woman I was youngest.
I'm not even sure what it was about. Actually, it
was about the pilot strike in Australia and I think
was the night eighties or the seventies or something. This
one had been a very dear friend of mum's and
I don't know what happened. So it wasn't even an
emotional discussion. It wasn't about that you've hurt my feelings,
(05:10):
but through a conversation about that. Mum held on too,
that grudge, I think until she passed away.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
And what turns like a you know, I had an
argument with somebody? What turns that into a grudge.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
It's almost like chronic pain. It's like an ingrown hair
pointing at your mustache now, like.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
How I beated it today?
Speaker 2 (05:31):
What I could hear Bo Derek of the Chin World.
But it's like a small ingrown hair that was the
initial thing, and after a while it just becomes a
giant red lump or chronic pain. You don't even know
what it's about anymore. But it still sits there.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
It just sits there.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
But as a psychologist, would you help someone and not
that or you say, look, that's human behavior.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Well, you know, it was interesting when I was looking
at the idea about grudges and a lot of the
research about how grudges are really unhealthy for the grudge holder,
you know, like it's kind of like if I have
a grudge against somebody, they might not even know that
I'm holding that grudge, and if I'm sitting there angry
about it and frustrated and you know, having all these
(06:16):
you know, terrible negative emotions about about the situation, potentially
about the other person, even maybe about myself and my
own actions in this situation that it's not healthy. Now,
it's the initial thing I you know, I had a
disagreement with somebody or they did something that annoyed me,
and I got angry. There's that initial dopamine hit that
(06:38):
you get that go it's juicy, it feels good, juicy,
it feels great, and it's kind of like, wow, look
how right and look how righteous I am in this situation.
And then but with time it just becomes pretty corrosive.
So as a psychologist, you know, you don't you want
to understand what it was that precipitated this grudge, Like
(07:00):
what caused this? What was it? This? Was it a
moral outrage? Was it? You know? Were you? You know what?
What else could be going on? And you want to
kind of take that apart. But yeah, you want to
move that person towards a place of forgiveness and a
place of letting go of that emotion.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Because you'd never describe the feelings someone had for an
abuser as having a grudge against them. That's not what
a grudge is. Is it like having negative thoughts about someone?
It could be.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
I mean, I think that there are people who have
been abused or in situations where they hold a grudge
against the person who such a small world word for
such a big and maybe maybe that's what people you
know who responded who said that they felt grudge was
a small world a word. But it is interesting that
(07:55):
the the you know, the idea about you know, what
do we call it and what do we do with it?
Is that like grudges, seemed to have the for me,
the sense part of the definition is that you're going
to hould it for a.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
While, Yes, you know, sit in it for a while
and take pleasure in it.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Yeah, But I don't know. I mean, for the grudges
that I've held, there's a sense, that immediate sense of
pleasure in it, but it for me, it quickly goes off,
does it for? Is it the sense for you?
Speaker 2 (08:29):
I have? I have a thing that Jones you can
I do the radio show with his identified as a boomerang.
So I'll say something that I feel very justified in
saying the same. I'm having a discussion argument with Harley,
I'll lay my case and then, because I hate conflict,
as JONESI said, he just waits for the boomerang to
(08:49):
come back, and I apologize for what I've said, so
I never get to own the emotion or keep or
keep the grudge.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
So you get the kick. But then you're media and
I feel guilt.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
It's guilt, Yeah, guilt, and did I did I go
too hard even though I feel fully justified and then
needing to need to be liked. And I'm sorry everyone, Sorry, sorry,
I've said all this even though it's quite justified. So
I take my own power back again, take my own
power away again.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Away again. Yeah, that's that's so. Have you ever held
a grudge for a long time?
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Yes, I think I have. Like I'll do all that,
then I'll be angry at them again, but I won't
say so. I'm a sulker and a grudge holder.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
And it's interesting that that in the Lookie Lou that
I was doing around grudges that they talked about that
there's some cultural aspects to grudges that in like individualistic
societies like Australia, like America, like Canada. Is that is
that we tend to, uh, you know, confront the person
(09:54):
who pisses us off. That's that's you know, I will
have that open conflict. I will have that discussion and
then I will hold the grudge, whereas people and more
collectivist kind of cultures will never say anything and then
we'll just hold it privately.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
What's an example of a collectionist.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Collectivist most Asian countries, so you know, places where the
sense of community and connection is really important, like where
family is more important than the individual, would be an
example of that. And so it's it's interesting. So it
might look really really sanguine on this on the surface
of it, like everything's fine, everything's fine, But you find
(10:32):
out if if you scratch the surface a little bit,
is that you'd find that there was just a hotbed
of resentment and grudge holding an anger in a lot
of these cultures, whereas you know in you know, it's
our culture that we tend to go and say, yeah,
let's just have it out. I'm surprised at that because
(10:55):
there's a lot of passive aggressive behavior.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
And how he ever, talks about his own family and
he said he knows that he's passive aggressive, and he
said he sometimes wishes they were from an Irish family
or whatever. Then everything is said. But often in Anglo
Saxon communities. I do think the ones the families we
grew up with were all quiet and demure and no
one had it out with anybody, but it was all
just writhing under the surface.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
And which I think is really interesting because I think
that from a psychological perspective, like I was taught, and
I'm actually just rethinking this as we're talking about this,
is that, you know, if there is something, you just
want to talk about it, you just want to get
it out there, you want to say it, you want
(11:38):
to go and try to resolve it. And I in
lots of ways I think that that's probably the way ahead.
But is there you know, I don't know, maybe maybe
men of the collectivist culture where you just let everything
similar under the surface and everybody just on the surface
seems to get along and they and there's no you know, issues,
(12:01):
I mean there are.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
I don't pick the scab. We've spoken about this before,
haven't we. That you think in an ideal society everyone
just says what they think. But you can't live like that, aren't.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
No, it would be like that, you know. I'm sure
that there's been movies made of that horror thing about
everybody could read everybody's mind.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
No one wants that.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Nobody wants but to end a grudge.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
And we've spoken about this in various themes. We've spoken
about you need to meet someone in the middle, and
who amongst us is going to be strong enough, will
big enough or brave enough to go in and say
me a kopper, I'm sorry, talk to me.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yeah. I think that there's two ways of ending a grudge.
One is exactly the way that you gun hit gun
for yeah, writing shot through the forehead. But it's I
think that there's two ways. One is to kind of
meet with the person that you know, you feel has
has slighted you in some way and to try to
to resolve it. I could never do that. That's the
(13:03):
other way. The other way is actually is to just
recognize that holding a grudge is actually unhealthy for you
and to actually move towards a sense of I'm going
to forgive this situation. This is more about me than
about them, you know, And we've talked about this before
about that radical acceptance is that you know this person,
(13:26):
you know they feel, they may feel very righteous in
what they said or did, and I just need to
accept that that's who they are, and I may make
a choice about not being a friend with them, or
limiting my contact with a family member or whatever it
might be, but recognizing that it. You know, it's great
when there can be two to tango, but it's not
(13:47):
always the way that it's going to be. And the
reality is is that you know, it's not Things are
not always resolvable. I think that they're going to be
because it really does take that willingness to be able
to have that conversation.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Because in pop culture, whether it's movies or TV or
whatever it is, and books, you see these grudges. You
can see the story arc, there's a misunderstanding, there's a flight,
someone's feelings are hurt, and you know, in an unexpected way,
on a deathbed or somewhere, that is going to resolve.
But as you're saying, Edith, that's not actually how real.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Life works, not always, you know, I think about I've
been thinking a lot about a situation where I had
with some colleagues where long story short, there was a
situation where I felt that this was people that I
had met as peers we were doing some work together,
(14:47):
and that I felt that they had well basically spoken
behind my back, and that they had talked about me,
and it was really hurtful, and I confronted that situation,
I thought in a diplomatic way, but just saying I
thought it was unfair. I didn't you know, I didn't
appreciate how that worked. And I basically it kind of
(15:10):
ended that that relationship with them. And it's not what
I would have wanted. I think that in essence. I
think I would have wanted it to be resolved. But
I think what happened is that if I look at it,
is that you know, I felt righteous and angry about
it and hurt and betrayed, and that they felt probably
(15:34):
the same way, and that there was very limited opportunity
to go and to resolve it. And so I mean
I was able to let it go. I mean, it's
in lots of ways because I recognized it wasn't healthy
for me to continue on with the emotion that I
was feeling with it. But it's you know, it's it's
(15:55):
not resolved. It just sits there as a you know, yeah,
as a little scab sitting.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
That was going to be the outcome. Would you have
brought it up in the first place or just dealt
with it?
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Yeah, I think I still would have because it would
have It was one of those situations that I think
would have festered. You know, I don't think I could
have taken that collectivist culture approach and just kind of
let it, you know, let it simmer underneath there without
without me doing or saying something. M It's yeah, but
it's it's hard, and it's in these are situations where
(16:29):
you know there can be some some bigger consequences.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
I fired off a text this morning about a work
situation that I normally wouldn't and it was early in
the morning, didn't have my armor on, and I'm now
feeling the boomerang. Yeah, I'm feeling I felt completely justified
in sending it. But I'm sorry if I've put people out.
Sorry everybody, Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry sorry.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
And what would happen if you didn't do the sorry
sorry sorry?
Speaker 2 (16:56):
If I hadn't sent it, well, no, like if you have,
I haven't said the sorry, sorry sorry. I'm just feeling
the sorry, sorry sorry. But now I've got to sit
out the consequences.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Ah, And that maybe that's part of it.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
You have to learn to sit in your own stink
for a while and feel the feels of stepping up,
and I'm trying to be better at at saying what
I feel in the moment.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yeah, and you know, having not having to kind of
deal with that, you know when that boomerang does happen
and you kind of go, oh, I've just I really
wanted something to happen from that situation. I wanted people
to hear, at the very least hear what I was
feeling and thinking about this decision. That it's interesting that
(17:51):
do you think that it makes people think when you
do the sorry, sorry, sorry, that they can dismiss your
initial concerns.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Try it.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
That's why I'm trying to not do the sorry, sorry, sorry.
Even something that happened with Jack and this isn't a
grudge because it's my son, but a place where he's
renting he wasn't taking. You know that they had an
inspection and it wasn't great, blah blah blah, and I
went hard on him, and then I.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Wanted I thought.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
I fought so hard to not text him the next
day and say, PS, I love you, love you, love you,
love you, love you, because I thought he knows that
and I don't can't weaken the emotion around what I
was you know, my first response, my reaction so my
own worst enemy sometimes and not being strong enough with
stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Now I can see that if you'd had a huge
overreaction to it, and you, you know, said things that
maybe were hurtful or you know, awful, that maybe the
idea might be I need to calm down a little
bit before I taxed. But I don't normally respond in
(19:00):
those moments. No, you don't generally do that, you know.
And often what my experience of you has been, Amanda,
is that you go, oh, I just went off on
this person, But you didn't. You were actually really thoughtful
and rational and and you know, so your issue is
more not the preparation stage. I need to kind of
(19:21):
calm down and make sure I'm not being insulting or difficult.
Yours is about I need to hold strong when I have.
When I have, you know, had the decided to share
something that I'm feeling. This has been a very good
therapy session. The bill's coming in.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
I was going to say, you better not invoice me
better not better not better not Well, look, maybe we
end with this comment.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
That said a grudge.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
I thought that's what you parked your car in. I
love that one. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
I knew you would appreciate that one. Can I just
also say I loved that my cust and Robin McGregor
had responded to this as well, and she's one of
my fellow Canadian. Love her. She's lovely, lovely, and she
she was like, no, I'm not a grudge holder, and
then she looked actually looked up the definition went yeah,
(20:14):
I guess I.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Am can't stand my cousin.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
No, I really really like Robin.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
I'm thinking from her point she's holding a grudge against.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
You, she could be.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
And I've really enjoyed this. Thank you as always. If
there's anything we've said that you'd like to respond to,
please let us know. Anita, what's your glimmer.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
My glimmer is something that I know you really love doing. Well.
It's not craft again, No, it's not craft. It's camping,
your second favorite thing in the entire world. For Father's
Day weekend, we went camping with with my husband and
with my son Connor and his wife Tyan. Of course
our little grandson Logan. And I've got to say it
(21:08):
is just so much fun camping with a two year old.
He was being ironic, No, I've got I've got to say,
like just he kept us active, he kept us busy,
we were. It was just so enjoyable. I mean it was.
It was absolutely glorious. I love I love camping. Love
camping with a two year old, especially when he's not
(21:28):
sleeping in my tent.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
And did you do what the only time I've ever
been camping with you drink Baileies in the morning, of course,
camping tea camping tea officer camping camping.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Well, it's for this called mornings, Amanda oh White twice.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
As we come into the warmer weather.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
And yours.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Well, I was on We've got a place down the
south coast, and I was there with my sons on
the weekend, which was just absolutely brilliant. And trying to
get the two of them free at the same weekend
took a lot of planning, but.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
It was just so grateful. I was so grateful to
have that.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Time with them as there, you know, twenty four and
twenty two and living their big lives and all of that.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
It was lovely.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
But when we first moved there or bought that place,
which is probably five years ago something like that, Harley
had bought these lights from Bunnings that jammed. There's really
cheap solar lights that he just jammed in along the
fence line.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Almost those ticky things, yes, plastic tiki things, plastic ones.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
And I just noticed on the weekend that all of
them are just still going strong. They really are, They
really are, And I just thought that was testament. It's
not easy for Harley to get there anymore. So often
I'm there on my own and I love that too,
a chance just to laugh, cry, drink a bottle of wine,
play my daggy playlists, all of that. But when friends
(22:53):
are down there and the boys, it has a different feel,
wonderful feel to it.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
But Harley will always there.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
And often that's what I cry about, is that he
can't be there anymore. But I see those lights and
the enduring nature of the optimism with which we shoved
them in, and knowing things are hard for him now,
but that is that's life, and the burst of light
that they still as soon as the sun goes down.
The steadiness of those still going is so symbolic of
(23:21):
Harley for me. So that's my glimmer. All right, Well,
I'm exhausted, how about you me too?
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Alright, go and drink tea. Let's go pictal tea.
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