May 21, 2025 • 24 mins
We're exploring the tangled web of modern work culture — from padded resumes to keystroke monitoring. In today’s high-surveillance, high-stakes job market, is it okay to lie a little to get ahead? And if you're doing the job well, does it matter how you got in the door?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is for general information only and should not
be taken as psychological advice. Listeners should consult with their
healthcare professionals for specific medical advice.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Well. Hello, I'm Amanda Keller.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
And I'm Anita McGregor, and welcome to Double A Chattery today, Amanda,
I want to talk about.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Work, work, work, What kind of work? What kind of
Before we discussed what I'm going to do this work?
What kind of work are you're talking about?
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Are you? Are you interviewing me? Or am I interviewing you?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Oh? I see? Am I applying to work with you?
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Maybe? Maybe? But I do want to Actually, what I
do want to talk about, Amanda, is that whole idea
of cvs and resumes and the new world of work,
because you and I like, really like the last time
I really got my primary job was almost twenty years ago,
(01:09):
and it's been about the scene for you, hasn't it.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Well, probably I've got more jobs recently, but in terms
of CVS and things, the nature of my job is,
I guess people look at my previous work. I haven't
had to write a cover letter or I haven't had
to say here's who I am and here's what I
do and I feel for people re entering the workforce
who have to think, how does this work now? Yeah,
(01:31):
because remember when we were younger, what was it? It
used to be put it all in a cover page
because no one's going to read any further than that.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
And well, and it was kind of the two page CV,
and there was a lot of ideas about how you
did that, and it's very different now. And so when
we were down the South coast, we were at your
place and we were talking to my daughter in law
and she was saying about this situation that she'd heard
(01:59):
about where he's two guys saying, I am, we are
representing this this hiring company, and we won't even charge
you to this company. We won't even charge you, will
find you the perfect employees. You know, first one is free.
And they hired these two guys. Turned out that these
two guys actually were the guys. I love it.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
They employed them. They got themselves employed.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
They got themselves employed by by kind of teaking, by bullshitting. Yeah,
by bullshitting.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
And is it bullshit? Because this is what's interesting with
CVS and things Because when I was younger, I was
too scared. But a lot of people fibbed. Yes, I
is it okay to fib I couldn't fib either. But
you and I aren't brain surgeons and things. Well, I mean,
if you speak for yourself, you know my side job.
Your side job is a brain surgery.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Take the cat out.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
So if your job is specific, if you're designing a
bridge or you're operating on someone, I think you have
to be specific. It's you know, it's a legality. Yeah,
but all those other shades of gray. Is it okay?
We're all you expect someone because you've you've employed people,
I'm sure, is it okay you expect people to talk
themselves up. It's a very fine line as to what's
(03:17):
okay and what isn't. I'm imagined.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Well, you know, the the other part of the conversation
that we had with Tire was that she was saying
that there are now companies which shouldn't have surprised me.
Where they go and they check the cvs out and
so they they will.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
That's all they do.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
That's all they do. So you're you know, a company
will send off this CV to be fact checked. So
where Yeah, and so the question is it was they've
done some studies about how much people actually do fib
(03:55):
and some.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Interesting you call it fibbing rather than lying.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Well, yeah, well it's it's it's it is interesting because
it's it's what is a fib and what is a lie? Like?
Is it just bigger? I don't know. But Forbes was
saying that seventy percent of workers confessed that they have
lied on their resumes and thirty seven percent admitting that
they lie frequently, and thirty percent saying or thirty three
(04:20):
percent saying I've lied once or twice, and only about
fifteen percent said no, very little or not at all.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
And I just thought, wow, it's it's.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Amazing that now the chances of being caught in a
lie are are bigger and bigger and bigger.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
And I guess it's stuff people are lying about. Is
saying the responsibilities they had, the profit that increased in
a or improved in a company when you were there,
and they're all tangible things. I guess that can be
can be checked now. But if you can, if you
if you lie and then you end up doing the job,
well this is just another way of getting your foot
(05:01):
in the door.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Well, I think that this is fascinating because it is
like what do people lie about Like it's obviously the
things that they think are important and that are going
to get them the job. But the question is is
that you get in there. This is what I would
be terrified about fibbing about something if I said, yes,
I know how to operate this big machine or I
(05:24):
know how to do this, and then you get in
and they say, well there's the machine, you know, and
they say, go and do the thing that you said
that you can do, and then you can't.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
But what if it's a more amorphous kind of thing
that I ran a team of five and we did
really really well, was in fact it was a team
of three, and there's no quantifying result. You know, just
talking yourself up in that regard isn't that big a deal?
Speaker 1 (05:52):
I would have thought, I don't know, like it it
feels to me that you know you're going to if
you do get And maybe the idea is that as
long as you get the job, then you know, it's
easier to go and ask for forgiveness, you know, of
saying well, yeah, okay, well maybe it wasn't a team
(06:14):
of two hundred, it was a team of two, and
maybe I didn't you know, maybe we didn't you know,
break our sales records every year? Maybe we you know,
did you know, maybe we only were able to sell
you know, twenty percent under what we thought we would.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
But if you tell that story your retirement, say you've
worked in that company for forty years, that's a funny story.
I lied when I got my job forty years ago.
But is it so funny when you're competing at someone
else who wants that job and.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
It's now there's It's interesting that you say this because
there's some some ideas about people like George last laysenbe lasenby.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Australia as only James Bond.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Well, when he went to go and get hired for
the James Bond he had said, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've
you know, starred in you know, TV and film. And
actually I think all he had done was he had
been in a commercial, like in a non speaking role. Really, yes,
And so he got the job as James Bond and
(07:15):
he fessed up. He said no, no, no, he said no,
I actually haven't really and and whoever hired him said, well,
you've you.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Know, see foot in the door, foot in the door,
foot in the door.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Yeah. People like the look of you that's okay, Yeah,
and that you know he said, yeah, full fooled all
the producers and the and the directors and and you know,
and I was fine. Robert Pattinson, you know, he was
the guy that was in that Twilight he said that
he went to Oxford to get the role of Cedric
Diggree in the Harry Potter films, and you know obviously
(07:48):
hadn't done that. So I mean it's it's kind of like,
is it ballsy or is it just.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
See as an actor, it's probably not as bad if
you said you went to Oxford and you're an English teacher.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Hmm.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
That has bigger implications.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Yes, especially if you're trying to go and mark your
student's essays. That wasn't very good.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
I learned a lot from this essay, thank you. But
what about there were some cases of people who are
heads of companies who have gone to prison for lying
ten years previous, even though they've lied about their qualifications,
(08:31):
but they've still fooled everyone and done an efficient job.
Your two honest for your own good here.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Yeah, what we hear is the maybe potentially the success stories.
But it you know, I had when I was doing
some research for this. There were and I remembered hearing
about this, there was at least three female professors of
Aboriginal studies in can and the States that.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
When we say original, weomen in Australia in indigenous.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Indigenous Native, and that they had said that they had
indigenous heritage and that they had received I would assume
research grants, promotions, you know, favored, you know, things in
their careers, and turned out that they weren't, and you
(09:28):
know they were. They were, all three of them, at
various points in their careers were discovered. And that to
me seems I don't know, just it just seems.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
To that's punishable, that's ikey. That's ikey. It's like people
who like it's ikey. It's a technical word. I went
to Oxford. Just keep up. It's also people who lie
about their their military history. Did you thought about that.
There was a journalist in the States, a very respected
broadcaster and newsreader, and he claimed that he been embedded
(10:01):
with one of the crews I think during the Gulf War,
and in fact he hadn't.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Yeah, he said that he'd been in a helicopter that
had been shot at. I heard. I can't remember the
guy's name, but he kind of had embellisihous and and
we know that our memories are false and.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
So and we are from into exaggeration.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
And we are but this is kind of like I
am anticipating, like I am making this lie or this this,
you know, in order to gain And I find that
is more problematic.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
You have software two when you're marking assignments and things
that looks for plagiarism and looks for AI.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
It does.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Yeah, is there also software that can scan for this
without having to use a separate company for it? If
you wanted to, could you check all the students and see.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
If they're you know, it's interesting that that students. I've
been asked by students several times, do you look at
our Facebook or Instagram accounts to go and see you know,
who we are as a as a private individual as
part of the application process, and we don't, you know.
(11:15):
But it always makes me wonder, like, are these students
kind of you know, deleting all these posts and stuff
of them, you know, having a drunken weekend or something.
But interestingly, we did have an American psychologist coming to
give our students a workshop. She'd come to give us
a keynote, and she also agreed to do some training
(11:37):
with the students about social media and that kind of stuff.
And she was saying, is forensic psychologists, you need to
go and you know, see what your footprint is in
the digital world, in the social media world, and clients,
well because of clients, and you know, you know what
is out there. And so as before the workshop, she
(11:58):
had each one of the students go and do what
do they call it a vanity search of who you are.
And in fact, one of the students soundly that she
had found out that her picture that from from Facebook.
I think it's a public picture that you have out there,
that it had been put onto a site that was
(12:21):
called thank your wank.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
What is it though? It's that side of it? Is
it a sex site? Like a thing? It's exactly what
it said, And she saw her face was used on that.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Yeah, and I mean, how sad that this was? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Sad, proud?
Speaker 1 (12:40):
I don't know, It's like it was just terrible, and
it was.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
This stuff you can't control the sideline, but there was
something my face would appear lose twenty kilos. Ask me
how it is if I look like this, if I
could whose twenty kilos, asked me how, and it was
my head advertising some weight loss thing, and my agents
got onto it. There's no way we could get rid
of it. There's no source to which you could attribute
(13:07):
that ad, so it just circulates out. There's nothing you can.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Do there in the world, and you can't do anything anyway.
So you know, I'm going to bring us back to
the CV issue because I when I was doing this,
like reading some of the articles and stuff, it seemed
as though it's almost this battle Amanda, where you know,
applicants are kind of saying, I want to get this job,
(13:33):
and so I feel like I need to be well
armed to do this, which means I am going to
exaggerate or lie where I can so that I can
get this job. And employers are kind of fighting back.
They're saying, we're going to get AI in, We're going
to review these cvs because we don't want to hire
people who aren't representing themselves.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
And it may embarrass the company down the line.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Yeah, And it's this back and forth has been really
interesting and one of the trends which I find is
fascinating because it kind of blew my mind, is about
these workers who have multiple jobs and the cost of
living for you, well maybe, but it's it almost feels
(14:22):
as though there is some douping delight that is going
on with this, is that they're feeling like I can
hold two remote jobs get paid, and that apparently that
there are chat rooms and sites that kind of support
the how do you do it kind of thing, So
they're trying to manage all their calls and that kind
(14:44):
of stuff and how do you how do you manage this?
Speaker 2 (14:47):
But ethically, is it bad? If you're doing your job
doesn't matter.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Well, if you're well, I guess the question is if
you are being paid by the hour, and you are
getting paid you know twice where you you know, I'm
putting into eight hour shifts, but you're only working eight hours,
that seems to be problematic. But if you're work like
it's not. My sense is that they're not working sixteen hours.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
No. But if you are saying you're doing as much
in four hours as you would do in eight hours
in an office and you're still ere invoicing for eight hours,
doesn't matter how you spend your time.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
That's a really good question. So, Amanda, there is a
law firm in twenty twenty one that found that ninety
(15:44):
one percent get your head around that of Australian businesses
surveyed we're using software to monitor their employees when they
work remotely.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
How do they do that? What are they doing? See
cameras on them.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Well cameras, or they're monitoring keys strokes or.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
And with wandering key strokes. I think how long you're
spending on it? Or are they making sure you're not shopping?
What do they what can they monitor?
Speaker 1 (16:07):
That's a good question, it's it's I think it's really unclear,
but they're they're basically saying that they are looking to
see that you are working, that you're you know, so
they're probably looking at the content, not just the keystrokes,
but the content that you're using.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
What do you think of the ethics of that?
Speaker 1 (16:26):
It feels like this, It really does feel like this,
this war that is going on between employees who are saying,
I can wrote this system a little bit, I can
lie on my resume, I can work two jobs. I
can you know, especially if I'm working remotely. Do you
know go to the page, Yeah, that can go to
(16:46):
the beach. I mean very different saying you know I'm
going to be in my pajama bottoms all day working
versus I'm going to go to the beach, and it's
I don't know where I place myself. And I think
part of it is that I have a really strong
work catholic. So I'm that person that you know mentally,
I'm making sure that I'm always doing the number of hours.
(17:08):
My day doesn't always look like nine to five, but
I'm always sure that i'm working earlier or later to
make sure that I'm always doing the number of hours.
So I'm that person.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
But coming down to that initial question, we asked, if
the job gets done doesn't matter. If the job gets
done doesn't matter, you've lied on your CV. If the
job gets done doesn't matter, you're doing it in two
hours and then going to the beach, whereas another colleague
might take five hours to do the same thing. Because
I've always worked with people like that who are doing
the longest hours of working so inefficiently.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
True, True, I mean, I don't know, do you have
a sense, because I mean, I think if we're not
making widgets right in a lot of the jobs, like the.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Job output output like an ikea chair, our output isn't
necessarily tangible. Well mine is every day have to turn
up and do a three our radio show, so that
part of it is. But I've been trigued. Why don't
we open up to you guys? What do you think?
Is it okay to low on your CV? Is it
okay to have the bosses see what your key strokes
(18:16):
are on your computer at home? Is there a war
between the employer and the employee in this new technical world?
Speaker 1 (18:25):
And if it is a war, who wins? Like I mean,
it's what does winning mean? What would winning means? It's Yeah,
I'm I really felt unsettled in looking at this. It
felt Yeah, it felt as though there was this battle
going on that I had not really paid attention to.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
And also in the shades of gray, What's where do
you draw the line between exaggeration and and a lie? Yeah,
we're opening it up to you guys. We have no answers.
That's what I love about this podcast. We don't have
to have answers because we trust you to be smarter
than us.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
To help us out and have great opinions.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Yeah, I love to hear it all. Well, I start
with my glimmer, Please do Amanda well, it was interesting. Recently,
Tina Arena, the Australian performer, was complaining that so many
(19:25):
people during her show were getting up to go to
the toilet. And when I saw Hans Zimmer not so
long ago, same thing. Your seats are relatively.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
You know, it's like an airplane.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
It is just squished in and so if someone five
seats down wants to go to the loo and then
come back, and someone else wants to go and get
a drink or whatever it is, and you're standing up
and trying to see around them all, it's really irritating.
And Tina Arena called people out and said this is
one of This is a quote from her in my day.
You don't get out of your seat if you're going
to beat your pants. So she was sort of saying,
(19:56):
stop it. Stop having to get up every two minutes
to go to the toilet. But I just saw something
interesting in Swiss theaters. Swiss cinemas have installed bathroom floor screens.
So when you're sitting on the loop, it only be
for women, because men would it won't be facing all behind.
It's on the yeah, so for women it's on.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
The floor, so you don't miss the movie.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
So you don't miss a thing. It says. This insures
moviegoers don't miss a moment of the film, even during
bathroom breaks. This innovation is being praised for enhancing the
cinema experience and catering to dedicated film enthusiasts, because there's
nothing worse than being in a movie desperate to go
to the tour and you think, oh my god, by
the time I go there, I'm going to miss an exit,
which we had because you don't know which bit you're
(20:40):
going to miss. At a concert, at least you know
it's not my favorite song, I'll head out. You don't
know that in a movie.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
No, do you think that the difference is is that
people are now carrying around those four liter oh you know,
water things. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
How did we survive without carrying gallons of water around
with us? And how do we survive without tabulating how
much protein we've had every half hour?
Speaker 1 (21:03):
I don't know. I mean I used to run cross
country races and nobody had a water bottle. It's crazy.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
I lived to the age of sixty one without ever
drinking water, I'm sure of it. And then two years
ago I got shamed into having to sip some water occasion.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Probably between your glasses of wine.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
That's an outrage. I sometimes put ice in my wine
and eater.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Sometimes it's water ish ish.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
What's your glimmer, Oh, Amanda.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
I come from a cycling family, and we you know,
I'm I love cycling. I cycle the work. We do
it all the time as a family about like not motorcycling, bicycling.
And it has been glorious to go and watch my
daughter in Lattia as she has become somebody who enys
(22:00):
bike riding, which I love.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
She would have had to, she'd have been drummed out
of the raig.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Oh yeah, it's it was do or die really really
that was her choices. And how our little Logan has
become somebody who he was kind of a little uncertain
about the whole idea about being on like in the
bike trailer or we have a little carrier that sits
(22:25):
on the front of a on a bicycle.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
It's not even too yet.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
He's not even too yet. But when we were down
south of your place that we had, he was not
really excited about wearing a helmet or being in this
little carrier, and we kind of put him in and
he cried for about two seconds, and then as soon
as we took off, he was like, oh, this is
the most exciting thing, and he was going zoom zoom,
and it was just it.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Was the value that would be a great thing.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
And now he kind of walks around and when he
sees his helmet, he he just he will pick it
up and he'll put it on his head and he'll
tap its and he's ready to go. It's just it
just fills my heart. It is the best glimmer.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
My version of that that never came to fruition really
is I wanted to drink cups of tea with my children,
and when they were little, they never wanted to drink
any tea. They're both coffee drinkers now anyway, but when
they were little, they wanted to show how grown up
they were. But the minute I'd asked him to put
the kettle on, suddenly it's too heavy and lifted. So
I never my your bicycling is my tea drinking. And
(23:30):
I'm still waiting for my sons to cross the line there.
I still put the little tea drinking helmets on them
just in.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Case we will prap them for a next mother to ye, Yes,
they will sit down and make tea for you and
drink it with me, drink it with you. In the meantime,
we can drink tea together.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Just so you know, I'm never riding a bike. I'm
never riding a bike with you, Anita, Just so you know.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Oh well, I never seen ever.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
I'm quite determined not to love to see next time
yet
Speaker 1 (24:15):
H
This podcast is for general information only and should not
be taken as psychological advice. Listeners should consult with their
healthcare professionals for specific medical advice.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Well. Hello, I'm Amanda Keller.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
And I'm Anita McGregor, and welcome to Double A Chattery today, Amanda,
I want to talk about.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Work, work, work, What kind of work? What kind of
Before we discussed what I'm going to do this work?
What kind of work are you're talking about?
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Are you? Are you interviewing me? Or am I interviewing you?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Oh? I see? Am I applying to work with you?
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Maybe? Maybe? But I do want to Actually, what I
do want to talk about, Amanda, is that whole idea
of cvs and resumes and the new world of work,
because you and I like, really like the last time
I really got my primary job was almost twenty years ago,
(01:09):
and it's been about the scene for you, hasn't it.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Well, probably I've got more jobs recently, but in terms
of CVS and things, the nature of my job is,
I guess people look at my previous work. I haven't
had to write a cover letter or I haven't had
to say here's who I am and here's what I
do and I feel for people re entering the workforce
who have to think, how does this work now? Yeah,
(01:31):
because remember when we were younger, what was it? It
used to be put it all in a cover page
because no one's going to read any further than that.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
And well, and it was kind of the two page CV,
and there was a lot of ideas about how you
did that, and it's very different now. And so when
we were down the South coast, we were at your
place and we were talking to my daughter in law
and she was saying about this situation that she'd heard
(01:59):
about where he's two guys saying, I am, we are
representing this this hiring company, and we won't even charge
you to this company. We won't even charge you, will
find you the perfect employees. You know, first one is free.
And they hired these two guys. Turned out that these
two guys actually were the guys. I love it.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
They employed them. They got themselves employed.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
They got themselves employed by by kind of teaking, by bullshitting. Yeah,
by bullshitting.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
And is it bullshit? Because this is what's interesting with
CVS and things Because when I was younger, I was
too scared. But a lot of people fibbed. Yes, I
is it okay to fib I couldn't fib either. But
you and I aren't brain surgeons and things. Well, I mean,
if you speak for yourself, you know my side job.
Your side job is a brain surgery.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Take the cat out.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
So if your job is specific, if you're designing a
bridge or you're operating on someone, I think you have
to be specific. It's you know, it's a legality. Yeah,
but all those other shades of gray. Is it okay?
We're all you expect someone because you've you've employed people,
I'm sure, is it okay you expect people to talk
themselves up. It's a very fine line as to what's
(03:17):
okay and what isn't. I'm imagined.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Well, you know, the the other part of the conversation
that we had with Tire was that she was saying
that there are now companies which shouldn't have surprised me.
Where they go and they check the cvs out and
so they they will.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
That's all they do.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
That's all they do. So you're you know, a company
will send off this CV to be fact checked. So
where Yeah, and so the question is it was they've
done some studies about how much people actually do fib
(03:55):
and some.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Interesting you call it fibbing rather than lying.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Well, yeah, well it's it's it's it is interesting because
it's it's what is a fib and what is a lie? Like?
Is it just bigger? I don't know. But Forbes was
saying that seventy percent of workers confessed that they have
lied on their resumes and thirty seven percent admitting that
they lie frequently, and thirty percent saying or thirty three
(04:20):
percent saying I've lied once or twice, and only about
fifteen percent said no, very little or not at all.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
And I just thought, wow, it's it's.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Amazing that now the chances of being caught in a
lie are are bigger and bigger and bigger.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
And I guess it's stuff people are lying about. Is
saying the responsibilities they had, the profit that increased in
a or improved in a company when you were there,
and they're all tangible things. I guess that can be
can be checked now. But if you can, if you
if you lie and then you end up doing the job,
well this is just another way of getting your foot
(05:01):
in the door.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Well, I think that this is fascinating because it is
like what do people lie about Like it's obviously the
things that they think are important and that are going
to get them the job. But the question is is
that you get in there. This is what I would
be terrified about fibbing about something if I said, yes,
I know how to operate this big machine or I
(05:24):
know how to do this, and then you get in
and they say, well there's the machine, you know, and
they say, go and do the thing that you said
that you can do, and then you can't.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
But what if it's a more amorphous kind of thing
that I ran a team of five and we did
really really well, was in fact it was a team
of three, and there's no quantifying result. You know, just
talking yourself up in that regard isn't that big a deal?
Speaker 1 (05:52):
I would have thought, I don't know, like it it
feels to me that you know you're going to if
you do get And maybe the idea is that as
long as you get the job, then you know, it's
easier to go and ask for forgiveness, you know, of
saying well, yeah, okay, well maybe it wasn't a team
(06:14):
of two hundred, it was a team of two, and
maybe I didn't you know, maybe we didn't you know,
break our sales records every year? Maybe we you know,
did you know, maybe we only were able to sell
you know, twenty percent under what we thought we would.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
But if you tell that story your retirement, say you've
worked in that company for forty years, that's a funny story.
I lied when I got my job forty years ago.
But is it so funny when you're competing at someone
else who wants that job and.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
It's now there's It's interesting that you say this because
there's some some ideas about people like George last laysenbe lasenby.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Australia as only James Bond.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Well, when he went to go and get hired for
the James Bond he had said, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've
you know, starred in you know, TV and film. And
actually I think all he had done was he had
been in a commercial, like in a non speaking role. Really, yes,
And so he got the job as James Bond and
(07:15):
he fessed up. He said no, no, no, he said no,
I actually haven't really and and whoever hired him said, well,
you've you.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Know, see foot in the door, foot in the door,
foot in the door.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Yeah. People like the look of you that's okay, Yeah,
and that you know he said, yeah, full fooled all
the producers and the and the directors and and you know,
and I was fine. Robert Pattinson, you know, he was
the guy that was in that Twilight he said that
he went to Oxford to get the role of Cedric
Diggree in the Harry Potter films, and you know obviously
(07:48):
hadn't done that. So I mean it's it's kind of like,
is it ballsy or is it just.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
See as an actor, it's probably not as bad if
you said you went to Oxford and you're an English teacher.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Hmm.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
That has bigger implications.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Yes, especially if you're trying to go and mark your
student's essays. That wasn't very good.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
I learned a lot from this essay, thank you. But
what about there were some cases of people who are
heads of companies who have gone to prison for lying
ten years previous, even though they've lied about their qualifications,
(08:31):
but they've still fooled everyone and done an efficient job.
Your two honest for your own good here.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Yeah, what we hear is the maybe potentially the success stories.
But it you know, I had when I was doing
some research for this. There were and I remembered hearing
about this, there was at least three female professors of
Aboriginal studies in can and the States that.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
When we say original, weomen in Australia in indigenous.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Indigenous Native, and that they had said that they had
indigenous heritage and that they had received I would assume
research grants, promotions, you know, favored, you know, things in
their careers, and turned out that they weren't, and you
(09:28):
know they were. They were, all three of them, at
various points in their careers were discovered. And that to
me seems I don't know, just it just seems.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
To that's punishable, that's ikey. That's ikey. It's like people
who like it's ikey. It's a technical word. I went
to Oxford. Just keep up. It's also people who lie
about their their military history. Did you thought about that.
There was a journalist in the States, a very respected
broadcaster and newsreader, and he claimed that he been embedded
(10:01):
with one of the crews I think during the Gulf War,
and in fact he hadn't.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Yeah, he said that he'd been in a helicopter that
had been shot at. I heard. I can't remember the
guy's name, but he kind of had embellisihous and and
we know that our memories are false and.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
So and we are from into exaggeration.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
And we are but this is kind of like I
am anticipating, like I am making this lie or this this,
you know, in order to gain And I find that
is more problematic.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
You have software two when you're marking assignments and things
that looks for plagiarism and looks for AI.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
It does.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Yeah, is there also software that can scan for this
without having to use a separate company for it? If
you wanted to, could you check all the students and see.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
If they're you know, it's interesting that that students. I've
been asked by students several times, do you look at
our Facebook or Instagram accounts to go and see you know,
who we are as a as a private individual as
part of the application process, and we don't, you know.
(11:15):
But it always makes me wonder, like, are these students
kind of you know, deleting all these posts and stuff
of them, you know, having a drunken weekend or something.
But interestingly, we did have an American psychologist coming to
give our students a workshop. She'd come to give us
a keynote, and she also agreed to do some training
(11:37):
with the students about social media and that kind of stuff.
And she was saying, is forensic psychologists, you need to
go and you know, see what your footprint is in
the digital world, in the social media world, and clients,
well because of clients, and you know, you know what
is out there. And so as before the workshop, she
(11:58):
had each one of the students go and do what
do they call it a vanity search of who you are.
And in fact, one of the students soundly that she
had found out that her picture that from from Facebook.
I think it's a public picture that you have out there,
that it had been put onto a site that was
(12:21):
called thank your wank.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
What is it though? It's that side of it? Is
it a sex site? Like a thing? It's exactly what
it said, And she saw her face was used on that.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Yeah, and I mean, how sad that this was? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Sad, proud?
Speaker 1 (12:40):
I don't know, It's like it was just terrible, and
it was.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
This stuff you can't control the sideline, but there was
something my face would appear lose twenty kilos. Ask me
how it is if I look like this, if I
could whose twenty kilos, asked me how, and it was
my head advertising some weight loss thing, and my agents
got onto it. There's no way we could get rid
of it. There's no source to which you could attribute
(13:07):
that ad, so it just circulates out. There's nothing you can.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Do there in the world, and you can't do anything anyway.
So you know, I'm going to bring us back to
the CV issue because I when I was doing this,
like reading some of the articles and stuff, it seemed
as though it's almost this battle Amanda, where you know,
applicants are kind of saying, I want to get this job,
(13:33):
and so I feel like I need to be well
armed to do this, which means I am going to
exaggerate or lie where I can so that I can
get this job. And employers are kind of fighting back.
They're saying, we're going to get AI in, We're going
to review these cvs because we don't want to hire
people who aren't representing themselves.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
And it may embarrass the company down the line.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Yeah, And it's this back and forth has been really
interesting and one of the trends which I find is
fascinating because it kind of blew my mind, is about
these workers who have multiple jobs and the cost of
living for you, well maybe, but it's it almost feels
(14:22):
as though there is some douping delight that is going
on with this, is that they're feeling like I can
hold two remote jobs get paid, and that apparently that
there are chat rooms and sites that kind of support
the how do you do it kind of thing, So
they're trying to manage all their calls and that kind
(14:44):
of stuff and how do you how do you manage this?
Speaker 2 (14:47):
But ethically, is it bad? If you're doing your job
doesn't matter.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Well, if you're well, I guess the question is if
you are being paid by the hour, and you are
getting paid you know twice where you you know, I'm
putting into eight hour shifts, but you're only working eight hours,
that seems to be problematic. But if you're work like
it's not. My sense is that they're not working sixteen hours.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
No. But if you are saying you're doing as much
in four hours as you would do in eight hours
in an office and you're still ere invoicing for eight hours,
doesn't matter how you spend your time.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
That's a really good question. So, Amanda, there is a
law firm in twenty twenty one that found that ninety
(15:44):
one percent get your head around that of Australian businesses
surveyed we're using software to monitor their employees when they
work remotely.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
How do they do that? What are they doing? See
cameras on them.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Well cameras, or they're monitoring keys strokes or.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
And with wandering key strokes. I think how long you're
spending on it? Or are they making sure you're not shopping?
What do they what can they monitor?
Speaker 1 (16:07):
That's a good question, it's it's I think it's really unclear,
but they're they're basically saying that they are looking to
see that you are working, that you're you know, so
they're probably looking at the content, not just the keystrokes,
but the content that you're using.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
What do you think of the ethics of that?
Speaker 1 (16:26):
It feels like this, It really does feel like this,
this war that is going on between employees who are saying,
I can wrote this system a little bit, I can
lie on my resume, I can work two jobs. I
can you know, especially if I'm working remotely. Do you
know go to the page, Yeah, that can go to
(16:46):
the beach. I mean very different saying you know I'm
going to be in my pajama bottoms all day working
versus I'm going to go to the beach, and it's
I don't know where I place myself. And I think
part of it is that I have a really strong
work catholic. So I'm that person that you know mentally,
I'm making sure that I'm always doing the number of hours.
(17:08):
My day doesn't always look like nine to five, but
I'm always sure that i'm working earlier or later to
make sure that I'm always doing the number of hours.
So I'm that person.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
But coming down to that initial question, we asked, if
the job gets done doesn't matter. If the job gets
done doesn't matter, you've lied on your CV. If the
job gets done doesn't matter, you're doing it in two
hours and then going to the beach, whereas another colleague
might take five hours to do the same thing. Because
I've always worked with people like that who are doing
the longest hours of working so inefficiently.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
True, True, I mean, I don't know, do you have
a sense, because I mean, I think if we're not
making widgets right in a lot of the jobs, like the.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Job output output like an ikea chair, our output isn't
necessarily tangible. Well mine is every day have to turn
up and do a three our radio show, so that
part of it is. But I've been trigued. Why don't
we open up to you guys? What do you think?
Is it okay to low on your CV? Is it
okay to have the bosses see what your key strokes
(18:16):
are on your computer at home? Is there a war
between the employer and the employee in this new technical world?
Speaker 1 (18:25):
And if it is a war, who wins? Like I mean,
it's what does winning mean? What would winning means? It's Yeah,
I'm I really felt unsettled in looking at this. It
felt Yeah, it felt as though there was this battle
going on that I had not really paid attention to.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
And also in the shades of gray, What's where do
you draw the line between exaggeration and and a lie? Yeah,
we're opening it up to you guys. We have no answers.
That's what I love about this podcast. We don't have
to have answers because we trust you to be smarter
than us.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
To help us out and have great opinions.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Yeah, I love to hear it all. Well, I start
with my glimmer, Please do Amanda well, it was interesting. Recently,
Tina Arena, the Australian performer, was complaining that so many
(19:25):
people during her show were getting up to go to
the toilet. And when I saw Hans Zimmer not so
long ago, same thing. Your seats are relatively.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
You know, it's like an airplane.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
It is just squished in and so if someone five
seats down wants to go to the loo and then
come back, and someone else wants to go and get
a drink or whatever it is, and you're standing up
and trying to see around them all, it's really irritating.
And Tina Arena called people out and said this is
one of This is a quote from her in my day.
You don't get out of your seat if you're going
to beat your pants. So she was sort of saying,
(19:56):
stop it. Stop having to get up every two minutes
to go to the toilet. But I just saw something
interesting in Swiss theaters. Swiss cinemas have installed bathroom floor screens.
So when you're sitting on the loop, it only be
for women, because men would it won't be facing all behind.
It's on the yeah, so for women it's on.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
The floor, so you don't miss the movie.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
So you don't miss a thing. It says. This insures
moviegoers don't miss a moment of the film, even during
bathroom breaks. This innovation is being praised for enhancing the
cinema experience and catering to dedicated film enthusiasts, because there's
nothing worse than being in a movie desperate to go
to the tour and you think, oh my god, by
the time I go there, I'm going to miss an exit,
which we had because you don't know which bit you're
(20:40):
going to miss. At a concert, at least you know
it's not my favorite song, I'll head out. You don't
know that in a movie.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
No, do you think that the difference is is that
people are now carrying around those four liter oh you know,
water things. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
How did we survive without carrying gallons of water around
with us? And how do we survive without tabulating how
much protein we've had every half hour?
Speaker 1 (21:03):
I don't know. I mean I used to run cross
country races and nobody had a water bottle. It's crazy.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
I lived to the age of sixty one without ever
drinking water, I'm sure of it. And then two years
ago I got shamed into having to sip some water occasion.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Probably between your glasses of wine.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
That's an outrage. I sometimes put ice in my wine
and eater.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Sometimes it's water ish ish.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
What's your glimmer, Oh, Amanda.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
I come from a cycling family, and we you know,
I'm I love cycling. I cycle the work. We do
it all the time as a family about like not motorcycling, bicycling.
And it has been glorious to go and watch my
daughter in Lattia as she has become somebody who enys
(22:00):
bike riding, which I love.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
She would have had to, she'd have been drummed out
of the raig.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Oh yeah, it's it was do or die really really
that was her choices. And how our little Logan has
become somebody who he was kind of a little uncertain
about the whole idea about being on like in the
bike trailer or we have a little carrier that sits
(22:25):
on the front of a on a bicycle.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
It's not even too yet.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
He's not even too yet. But when we were down
south of your place that we had, he was not
really excited about wearing a helmet or being in this
little carrier, and we kind of put him in and
he cried for about two seconds, and then as soon
as we took off, he was like, oh, this is
the most exciting thing, and he was going zoom zoom,
and it was just it.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Was the value that would be a great thing.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
And now he kind of walks around and when he
sees his helmet, he he just he will pick it
up and he'll put it on his head and he'll
tap its and he's ready to go. It's just it
just fills my heart. It is the best glimmer.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
My version of that that never came to fruition really
is I wanted to drink cups of tea with my children,
and when they were little, they never wanted to drink
any tea. They're both coffee drinkers now anyway, but when
they were little, they wanted to show how grown up
they were. But the minute I'd asked him to put
the kettle on, suddenly it's too heavy and lifted. So
I never my your bicycling is my tea drinking. And
(23:30):
I'm still waiting for my sons to cross the line there.
I still put the little tea drinking helmets on them
just in.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Case we will prap them for a next mother to ye, Yes,
they will sit down and make tea for you and
drink it with me, drink it with you. In the meantime,
we can drink tea together.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Just so you know, I'm never riding a bike. I'm
never riding a bike with you, Anita, Just so you know.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Oh well, I never seen ever.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
I'm quite determined not to love to see next time
yet
Speaker 1 (24:15):
H
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