August 20, 2025 • 36 mins
What was sex ed like for you growing up? Join us as we reminisce about the awkwardness and hilarity of learning about the birds and the bees. From films on the overhead projector to pamphlets from Kotex, sex ed has come a long way, but is there still room for improvement?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is for general information only and should not
be taken as psychological advice. Listeners should consult with their
healthcare professionals for a specific medical advice.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Hello. I'm Amanda Keller and I'm Anita McGregor, and welcome
to Double a Chattery. How are you, Anita?
Speaker 1 (00:33):
I am still fighting a called, but I am Other
than that, I'm doing quite well.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
How are you feeling unwell? Just sounding a bit mucacy?
Speaker 1 (00:39):
I'm just I think I've just got that mucasy sound
I think it makes in my head. It makes me
sound really sultry.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Look, it's safer for you than smoking all those cigarettes
to get that kind of Lauren Bacall audio feel guy.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
It's so nice to have reached puberty, let me tell you.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
And on that note, and on that note, let's talk
first of all about some of the feedback. We got
many comments about the role of memory and the Salt
Path story that we were telling about. And because I've
just got a follow up to that in that now
that that first book and there are follow up books
to that, that first book now has been kind of
(01:21):
tarnished because even though they said this is absolutely a
true story, there are enough discrepancies in some of the
big things like how they lost their house, the nature
of a husband's disease, et cetera. That had made people
feel like some of those fundamentals that made them connect
with those characters had shifted a little. Well now I
saw an interview with a journalist from The Observer, which
(01:43):
is the newspaper that broke this story in the first place,
and other people have reached out who've been featured a
little negatively in that first book. There's an Australian couple
who said they met them as they were hiking around
the southwest is it to the south coast of England, Yeah,
and been painted as There was a description of them
as a couple, the woman of which was saying as
(02:06):
if she was more interested in looking for a local
hair salon. And there's a photo of them who looked
like fellow hikers, just as disheveled as the protagonists. And
they said, well, I didn't take kindly to that description,
but I wouldn't have said anything but within that they
were walking in a different direction to us. We crossed paths,
we weren't going in the same direction. And this was
(02:28):
several years later. So they said that they were walking
a certain way on that trip and that's what they
were doing. Whe was In fact, this puts into question
were they walking in that direction at all, which is
a big part of the story as to where they
went and what year was it, because the follow up
book has them doing something similar another year, and so
(02:50):
these details may not matter in the scheme of things.
But once you discredit a little bit, people are coming
out of the woodwork. There's a fish and chip shop
or a cafe that they stopped somewhere along the way
and they said that the waiter had been so rude
or the owner came out and swore at the waiter,
what the effort you're doing, blah blah blah was so
(03:11):
rude that he said, that's it. I quit and stormed
out while they were there. And the cafe itself has said,
this is a bit a family run business. No one's
ever spoken to each other like that in here, and
no one's ever stormed out with family.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
And so they said, this is a very small community here, yeah,
and to be have our cafe, our business discredited in
this way has been a really big deal for us.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Wow. So you know, it's small things and large things
that are being questioned now.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yeah, And I think by opening the door to the
large things, the small things are now being questioned. And
do the small things matter? We spoke last time about
whether even the big things matter and how much you
care about how real it is. But once you open
the door to how much of it is real, all
the small stuff gets discret credited too.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Oh it's it does? How does it make you feel? Like?
Does it make you kind of go? I wouldn't read
any anymore by this, I think. So you're the one
who'd read that first one. I'd read about the controversy
and knew of it. Yeah, but I haven't actually read
the book which you had loved. I had really loved
the book.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Would it stop you reading the next one in the series?
Speaker 1 (04:23):
You know what? I think? I think so at this
point I think it would just make me start questioning.
And when I read, I just want to read for
the pure pleasure of it. I don't want to have
to think, well, did that really happen? Did that really happen?
And so it's actually put me off a little bit.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Which you want that other layer?
Speaker 1 (04:42):
I don't want that other layer. And I and on
the other hand. I know that not everything in a
biography is going to be true, or in a this
actually happened is going to be true. So yeah, but
it does kind of put me off a little bit.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
This is why fairy porn and drag and porn will
never let you down, because it's all true.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
It's it is absolutely live stuff like it is just
it just it happens.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
It's like looking at a documentary.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
What do you mean, like there was.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
A scene because I can is the expression suspend belief,
will suspend disbelief? What's the expression?
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Well, it would have to be suspend disbelief. No, suspend belief,
suspend belief.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
In the drag in the the Court of Thorns and
Roses where they're having it off with giant batman that
you know, you think that's attractive, but then when you
start to picture how it is when you're having off
with someone with a normous set of bat wings, you
sort of think, oh, I don't want to have to
think about that bit. No, I don't have to worry
about their bat wings.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
But maybe it would, I don't know, maybe it had
added something I don't know, like it's maybe it would Yeah,
I mean, yeah, I would you just I don't even
like the idea of holding about so you know, you
never have it off with a ratman, would No, I
would never know, or a snake man that that would
not be your thing. No, it would not be my thing.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
How about a centaur? Is that half goat half man or.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Horse half man?
Speaker 2 (06:11):
I saw someone saying that hands on which horses head,
and then normal man from the waist down. The worst
of all options, the teeth stealing all your apples. I
saw someone saying the other day, if you if you
were a centaur, what do you do with your arms
(06:31):
when you're running?
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Oh? That would look hard, but it would it'd give
you the eck.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Even if you thought how attractive they are, it'll give
you the ik when you saw what happened to their
arms when they're running.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
So they have like but they have four hoofs, like
four horse legs, and then and then arms and then
arms the full kind of torso up. Yes, yeah, no,
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
I don't know. That's for another discussion, is for yeah,
that is for over a bottle of wine or anything
you'd like to adback.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Yes, I loved the feedback around the witchcraft one, and
I really liked that. There was a comment from Rose
I think as Milliken and she's a witch, and she
talked about her perspective of the history of witchcraft and
(07:28):
really pointing out about how history was really shaped by
the men who wrote about it, obviously, and thinking about
how witchcraft is really kind of a benign source of
healing and of trying to make wishes come true, that
all all that kind of stuff. And I really loved
(07:50):
the way that she ended this, which was it's worth
remembering most of what we think we know about witches
comes from the pens of men with an agenda, And
I thought brilliant, just brilliant. So it's it. It really,
the more that I understand history, the more I hear
about it, the more I read about it, the more
(08:12):
I realize it's in a history is made by the victor,
not the vanquished, and it's and it's often about men
who are writing this from a particular perspective with a
particular outcome. So it's yeah, it was. It was lovely
to hear that comment.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Thank you for all of your comments, and which try
I reference more of that as I go. Yeah, all right, well, today, Anita,
let's talk about sex education.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Lat's not not not to do with centaurs or bat
wings or anything to do without.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Really, I've done some drawings.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
We still make shoes off. Centaurus wouldn't have shoes.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Horses shoes, That's what I mean. Horses have shoes. They'd
have to come off good.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
One.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
You're not bringing that mud in here over to you, Anita,
sex education one on one.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Begin So what made me think about this, Amanda, is
that I was reading an article about the fiftieth anniversary
of a book called Where Did I Come From? By
Peter Male, who is a UK author and fifty years
see years, and apparently this was an iconic book for
(09:42):
teaching youngsters, young kids, those youngsters about sex education.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
I was in the drop zone of being too old
for it, and I don't think we used it for
the kids. I don't think so. But the book is very,
very famous, right up there with a women's Weekly Birthday
Party cookbook.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
I had that in Canada. I had that book, did you?
I did? And I kept thinking I'd look at all
these these birthday cakes and go, I don't, I don't.
I don't have the skill to do these.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
But they were amazed. They were amazing, but don't get
those books confused. Don't use the swimming Pool cake to
teach sex education. Okay, well you can if you like,
but it will confuse everybody.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
So, Mando, I'm going to ask you a question, since
you were out of the drop zone for that book,
how did you find out about sex?
Speaker 2 (10:31):
I think at school I came from a family with
this stuff wasn't really spoken about easily. Not that we
were repressed or anything, but it just wasn't part of
the conversation. I don't think it was for my friends
necessarily either. I remember sitting through a film at school,
and I can still hear it was as the film
went through the projector it was so old it was
(10:51):
sort of wildly like that. Yeah, yes, and that was
about menstruation. I sat through the whole thing and it
is only talking about it with somebody afterwards. I thought, Oh,
that's period. I watched the whole film, and I think
it must have been so medicalized and so just devoid
of a human body that I didn't equate that with that.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
And I got my period at eleven.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Oh that's young.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yeah, So I knew nothing about it. I don't know.
I didn't know what it was. I didn't know what
it symbolized, but I knew I knew what a period was,
but I didn't know the biology of it, and there
was no one I could talk to. I mean, I
told my mother obviously, but I had to wear those
old pads that were like with the waste with the
waste thing, and so stuff had just come out. Besides,
(11:37):
it was horrendous, and no one I knew had their period.
And then over the years, girls who didn't get it
till they were sixteen were anxious that they weren't going
to get it. Oh yeah, it was a period of
anxiety for everybody. But in terms of this sexual act,
I think we were in We went to school to
see films and you sat with a parent, which was mortifying.
And I remember once there was some there was.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
A co ad because you went to a called coed. Yes, yeah,
so you would be in the room with your parents
watching with other boys and girls, so.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
In a jig hall, and I remember at some point
they said you don't take your clothes off for people
outside your family, and I remember Mum saying to me,
that's right a manner and turning to me. I was
the most prudish person in the universe to this day
that I just still remember the horror of her saying
that to me, is if your poor doctor, as if
(12:28):
i'd been I transgressed earlier. Oh my god, I know
that might be mum's particular thing. I don't know. I
don't know, but vaguely. We didn't speak about it at
home necessarily. But that was where I got my basic education.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
And it's interesting that there's for me too. I remember
I was probably eleven or twelve, maybe even a little younger,
and my mum Kotex, which was a brand that used
to make tampons, handed me this and pads, and she
handed me this little pamphlet which is now in a
(13:02):
museum as I looked up, which doesn't age me at all, no,
And it was called on Becoming a Woman, and it
was it was a tiny little pamphlet, I remember, and
you'd you know, it was all about mostly about what
periods were and what their products were, and basically like
(13:23):
how to insert a tampon, how to use a pad?
Did your mother outsource it to the broch She kind
of well, now, she like later on she swore that
she set us My sister and I down and had
a conversation with us, but I don't remember it. I
think I would have remembered that conversation just in its awkwardness,
because my mother would have been terribly awkward about having it.
(13:46):
And then we learned about it in probably in our
equivalent of junior high, which was year seven to nine.
So and again it would have been one of those
terrible projector you know films that would have just.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
The and the anatomy from the side with the best
deference and this. And I think that's why the Where
Did I Come From book was so shocking for so
many people because it was the next step of this
can be pleasurable for mom and dad well.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
And it talked about like remember I remember all the
film stuff being very like technical, and it was you know,
you got about as much as when a man loves
a woman and they're married, then this will you know
then that then this act can happen. But there was
nothing about the ethics of it, nothing about you know,
(14:40):
lusty feelings, nothing about consent, nothing about any of those things.
It was really about the medical act of sexuality, and
that was really about it. And maybe that's where babies
come from. Kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yes, it's not about sex. It's about where babies come from.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yeah, not about pleasure, not about anything.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
No, And I remember wondering if you had to have
sex every time you had a baby, or if the
eggs were stored in there and that it's got fertilized
every now and then they're in the fridge somewhere, which
mine were with IVF and then a baby came out.
But I was too embarrassed to ask my family about it.
And there wasn't any googling, which is the problem these days.
You can just type in that and then it leads
you down the worst garden path in the history of
(15:20):
the universe.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
But there was like, I don't remember anything about masturbation,
about you know, anything like that. And you know, certainly
as a as a younger, like you know, ten eleven,
twelve thirteen, I probably didn't even realize that women could masturbate.
It was the idea that that was something men. Men
did jokes about teenage boys, Yeah, growing hair on their
(15:43):
palms and you know that kind of thing. Yeah, that
was it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
We had a pe teacher who I think she used
to walk around and sort of in her undies in
the Chaine rooms, and we were a bit confronted by that,
but she she took that usually the pe teachers that
took those sort of classes, and she said something if
you ever rub yourself against a balance beam and go,
oh that feels nice, and we're going, oh my god.
We were so horrified that I didn't equate that with masturbation.
(16:09):
All I remember is, isn't it funny? These are the
phrases that have stuck in my head, Amanda, don't take
your clothes off in front of strangers and what happens
if you rub yourself on a balance beam? They're pretty
much the two phrases that have stuck with me to
my advanced age.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Now that is your understanding of education.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Jonesy how I do at the radio show with said
that his wife took long there some years ago and
there were big illustrations of different body parts and you
had to stand out the front with them, and she
had to stand out the front holding a big sign
and a big drawing that said scrotum. And I suggested
that's what she takes when she kicks them up at
the airport. But no matter what generation you are, it's mortifying.
(17:05):
It's embarrassing as the movie you know what's there's the
movie Mean Girls, where the mom I'm a cool Mamma,
cool mom, whether you're good with it, whether you're embarrassed
by you do not want these conversations with your parents.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Well, it's you know, it's funny because the equivalent of
where did that book? Where did I come From? In Canada,
at least for our family, was a book that's called
Mummy Laid an Egg by the back Call And we
had this this book. We had a bookshelf that was
outside the boys rooms and hilariously, your boys, my boys,
(17:40):
and I would find that book and it was hilarious
because it was it was kind of these little drawings
of you know, eggs and sperm and parents fitting together,
all the different ways they were on like a space,
you know, bouncy ball, and it was very funny. It
was a very funny book. And that book would end
up in my kid's bedrooms four months at a time.
(18:03):
It was just, you know, they liked having their information
that way. I found out later I was just doing
a Google search on this book and it was actually
bound in the States, in several states because it had
drawings of whole naked adults in a cartoon way, which
(18:23):
I thought was hilarious.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
In a cartoon way.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Remember the book The Joy of Sex. Oh yeah, it
was nineteen seventies, I'm guessing. And everyone was so hairy
you couldn't tell where he ended and she began. Everyone's armpits, genitals,
everything was just every drawing of the guy had enormous beards.
They were all lounging on bean bags.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
And nobody was this wildly attractive like it was kind
of bodies. There were just these adult bodies, which I
thought was really.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Lovely, yes, but still confronting and strange. Yeah. Yeah, and
those bodies will be so alien to our children, oh,
hairless bodies. When I knew we're going to be talking
about this, my son Jack is twenty two, was over
the other day and I asked him about sex education.
Here remembers learning at school more about consent issues. I
(19:12):
think they all probably learn about the act itself, probably
from the Internet and from each other. I don't remember
having the chat with them. I don't know if Harley did,
But these days the schools are pretty good at all
of that. But in their high schools they'd have someone
come in and talk to them about consent and the
role of all the being careful of including technology in
(19:36):
if you share photos all that kind of.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Stuff that's sexting thing.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
The whole thing is a different ballgame. Excuse that dreadful partner.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
And like, I talked to my boys as well, and
they were like, because it got to kind of be
a family joke where I would say something would come
up often about consent issues or those kinds of things
in a film or something, and I'd say, like to
talk about sex now, boys, and they go, oh, no, Mom,
let's not. Because it was there was this whole idea
(20:06):
that I would just put stuff out there on you know,
to discuss and and I still remember that. My son's
Ben was saying the other day that he was in
class and maybe year eight or nine, and there was
a discussion about using you know, heroin or something and
the teacher goes, well, I'm not sure how it can
(20:27):
be used, and he piped up, well it can be
used this way, in this way, in this way, and
the teacher just, you know, her jaw dropped and was like,
you know, how do you how do you know about that?
And he goes, well, my mom's a psychology she talks
about with us all the time about you know, everything,
So there was really nothing off the plate. And you know,
it's funny that my boys, I don't think that they
(20:48):
were scarred by those awkward conversations, but we I wanted
to make sure my children really understood about issues around
consent and that there wasn't any anything that they felt
that they couldn't we couldn't talk about.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
But for every family that's that, there's a family that
will never talk about it, and the school has to
try and span all of that. And what's interesting is
I think too that as you tend to think that
set's education advances along that we know more, we fit
in with this new generation more and more and more.
But I'm sort of wondering about modern America at the moment.
(21:28):
You would not be learning in many states about LGB
two QI, you'd not be learning about gender identity, you
would not be learning about maybe planned parenthood, some reception
contraception in those some places. That would be going backwards.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Yeah, yeah, And that's quite terrifying because then you get
this perfect storm where many of the states have banned abortions,
and you know, and the whole idea around planned parenthood
being defunded, which means that people aren't getting prenatal care.
It just continuously. Yeah, it is this perfect storm.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
So the same states that won't fund the education don't
fund the result.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Yeah, they're likely all, yeah, the same kinds of states.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Yeah, And I think also, don't the studies show that
the states within which the parents don't want their children
you can opt out for your child to learn this stuff.
The states where they don't want the schools to be
teaching their kids, they're the ones that aren't going to
teach them at home.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Yeah. Yeah, And so you've got this generation of kids who,
you know, how are they learning about about sex education?
And it's and I you know, I say that kind
of that term a little lately because many of them
would probably be learning through the internet and you know,
and accessing porn. And that's actually you know, as you said,
(22:54):
you know, hairless people having all kinds of sex, and
that make it look that make things like lack of
consent look okay.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Interesting? Isn't it that we're at a time wherein in
some communities, we're teaching more about consent than has ever
been discussed before. But we're also next to that thing
the rise of the manosphere. The Andrew tates the online
presence of men who say, we've been suppressed for too
long time to exert your influence over women again. So
both those things exist at the same time.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Does it feel like from the time that you were
a young woman where you know, there was that that
whole thing about you know, women may say no, but
they really mean yaos, and you know that that whole
kind of idea about women ask for it and look
at where she was wearing and that, and that seemed
to have changed generationally that now there's you know, the
(23:49):
understanding about consent. There was an understanding, but it seems
like we're that that pendulum is swinging back again to
this manosphere thing where men are feeling more entitled and
feeling like women are holding out on them in some way.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
I think you're right, But also women have always women.
I'm hoping today women are more bolshy about speaking up
about it. In the puberty Blues era in Australia, that
you were treated poorly and you just put up with it.
I don't think. I'd like to think young women don't
do that anymore, But then they're butting up against these
guys and the sort of this rap culture that's very
(24:30):
sexual and you know, in our day and this is
we're about one hundred minutes of people to be saying this.
But if you flicked open to a page of the
Joy of Sex, you weren't going to be scarred for life.
But you can google an image that will stay with
you forever, and an image that you're not seeking out.
And also, we used to think that guys would look
(24:51):
at Playboy, they'd know that real women didn't look like that.
Now I wonder if young men do expect the bodies
to look like the bodies they're seeing in pornography. You
expect girls to be open to anal sex and all
kinds of stuff, and the girls have an expectation that
that's their role as well.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
There was statistics that we sought out on young people
having sex in Australia. This was this was vaginal sacks
forty four percent have had vaginal sacks thirty two percent
by year ten and fifty two percent by year twelve. Yeah,
and for anal sex it was eight percent by year ten,
(25:28):
oh my god, sixteen percent by year twelve, and oral
sax thirty nine percent by year ten and sixty one
percent by year twelve.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
So it is and do we presume that that's giving
rather than receiving the anal of the Sorry, the oral
sex is that scene because you hear about lipstick parties yep,
where guys girls put on really bright lipstick, Guys see
how many lipstick marks they get, and girls still feel
like they've got their virginity, they've held onto their virginity,
(26:01):
but they've consented to these other acts that's not seen
as a sex sect necessarily like sex.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
But but I haven't had sex. I haven't had sex,
or I've had anal sex, but I haven't had Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
So everyone chooses where they draw the line in all
of this. What a mess.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
What a mess it really is, And it just it
makes me think about how do we create that environment
where consent is a conversation, where there is that respect.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
But it can still be sexy and fun.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
And it can still be sexy and fun. Like I was,
you know, thinking about this black Humored show that was
talking about how it was these two people having sex
and they both had little video cams on their chest
and they had to go and look at each other's
little cameras and say, you know, yes I consent to
have you know, you know, full penetration sex with you.
(26:58):
You know, like it was a very odd you know,
and you know, I can hear people thinking, oh, well that's.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Where we're you get wowsers saying well, if you keep
going down here, that's where you're going. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Yeah, But I also think, like where where does the
fun come in it? And and that's what I really
in looking at this this where did I come from?
Is that it the you know, it seemed as though
it was trying to make sex fun, like it was
trying to get back to this is a pleasurable thing,
and we need to move away from that Victorian. You know,
(27:28):
we have to cover up the piano legs because you know,
we don't want men to get aroused by that.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Was that really a thing? There was really a thing? Really?
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Yeah, that's why you have table claws and stuff to
go and cover up tea. Yeah, yeah, you don't. You
don't want men to get roused, for heaven's sakes, Amanda.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
And yet women were allowed to wear trousers. But what
a funny world we live in. Interesting looking at the
parents involvement, and I'm just thinking more of the States
than anything than new vigilanteism has been the school board.
This happened during the COVID years. The Mum's group on
Facebook took over the school board and we're encouraged to
(28:10):
do so.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Let's burn some books, burn some books.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
And they're now setting the curriculum and agenda for how
people are going to learn about sex. Is it the
same conversation about we know about nutrition, and people will
still eat badly because they choose to. It's cheaper, their
time poor. By and large, people know that sex equals this,
sex may equal a baby these days. You know about
(28:36):
contraception if you can. How much education is going to
change that stuff? Well?
Speaker 1 (28:41):
I think that And again I think that the pendulum
is swinging because it used to be again in that
era of AIDS and all the STIs and all those
kinds of things, is that there was a lot of
education about you know, wrap that rascal, you know, where
a condom?
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Do you know?
Speaker 1 (28:58):
That kind of thing? And then what you know now
it seems it's though unprotected sex seems to be more common.
You know, it's it's I don't know it's it is.
You know, it's because sex education. It's not just about
you know, penis and vagina, it's so much about consent.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
That's right. That's what I think I was meaning is
the sex in vagina, sex in vagina. That's how much
I know sex in vagina can happen. Is that the
is the sex act itself. We know what that is
pretty much, and in schools they know what that is
and they know what that can lead to in terms
of babies. It is more education around consent that's required
(29:38):
as to how you're able to navigate your relationships.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Well and healthy sexuality. What does that actually mean for
things like STIs, for things like you know, what are
you willing to?
Speaker 2 (29:51):
You know?
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Where are your boundaries in a relationship? Because there's still
got to be that pressure about guys saying, what was
the old thing about boys getting blue ball?
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Yes, yeah, she has a headache. Pressure, those old stereotypes.
There's all those old stereotypes, and we need to get
past that. Yes, although I do sometimes get headaches, of
course you do, of course you do. I need No
one's disputing that, at least all your husband, that's right,
don't talk to him. But I'd be interested to know
how modern sex education works. In the teacups lives. The
(30:24):
conversations you're having with your kids. Is has school and
the internet taken over that? And is that a relief?
Do you still feel that you can have those you'd
still need to have those conversations?
Speaker 1 (30:35):
What are our responsibilities as parents? Were grandparents?
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Oh my god, imagine getting sex education from your grandparents?
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Could you imagine? Oh?
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Wow? I remember our mutual friend Margaret. I think it
was the night she got married or one of her
husband's sisters had said that their mother or grandmother had
put some olive oil and a handtown next to the
bed and said, don't worry, darling, that's what you need.
And she had no idea what she was talking about.
But that was that generation of here's how sex education goes,
(31:08):
the night of your wedding, bit of olive oil and
a handtoul think you're supposed to make past? Oh, please
enlighten us as to how it's worked in your household?
Where you think we go? He has the school done
a good job by your kids? We'd love tonight we
(31:28):
were Shall we get to our glimmers?
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Let's you first.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
When I went to the Logis a few weeks ago,
I was pleasantly surprised by how many great Australian shows
were nominated, but shows that I haven't seen. I go
to bed early because I get up early. But it
was a great reminder to me to watch some great
Australian content, and I started watching the twelve. Have you
heard of this? No, it's good, It's so good. Sam
(32:02):
Neil won a logo for his role in this. And
I sound like a tossle when I say a friend
of mine who's a lawyer, had suggested I watch this
series when it was a Belgian series. I think I
first watched it in my nature of Belgian. What's the
language Flemish? Flemish in my Slimmish. I watched the first
(32:23):
season years ago, so they've done a remake of that
for this Australian series.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
But I've just watched series two.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
And the acting is brilliant, the writing is brilliant, the
storytelling is great. And I sound patronizing when I say
it's world class, but I thought, what a great reminder
for me to watch more Australian television.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
I keep thinking I would love to watch more free
da eraror stuff, because there is some really quality TV
out there. And I think that we somehow get riveted
by our you know, when we turn our TV on,
it's the streaming services.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
This one was on stand. This one was on stand
but Fisk the Australian to have you watched Fisk that
won five logis on the night. It is a brilliant
It's by my friend Kitty Flanagan. She's written it with
her sisters, who I love too great. She is great.
That is a great comedy series. So yes, absolutely on
Free to Wear. There's a lot of stuff to soak
(33:24):
up as well.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Oh that's lovely my turn. It doesn't quite sound like
a glimmer, but it was so my Emma and I
celebrated our thirty ninth anniversary. That sounds like a glimmer,
well that is that is And we decided to go
and get a little tiny home in the Blue Mountains
for the weekend. And it's a tiny home. It's all
(33:48):
designated small house. It is like these tiny little there there.
I don't even know how many square feet they are,
but they're you know, they're made to be uber efficient
in high of aspects. So the kitchen is tiny, you know,
there's it's often got a little loft where just the
bed is. They've got little cupboards and everything. It's very sweet.
(34:10):
And so we got out there and we knew that
the weather wasn't going to be great, but we thought
it'll be great. You know, it'll be fine. We'll go
for walks and stuff. We get out there and one
of the selling features was that it was going to
have a hot tub, but we couldn't get the hot
tub to fill, and even if we could, we couldn't
get the fireplace that heated up the hot tub because
(34:31):
there was no fire starters. We got into the place,
we turned the heat on because it was about three
degrees you could see your breath and the after about
an hour and a half, we got a notification of
we were using too much power because it's solar powered
and there'd been no sun because it had been raining,
and we're like, what are we supposed to do here?
Just you know, freeze to death. So it was hilarious.
(34:54):
It was just this complete causey sound hilarious and it
wasn't so much at the time, but we went to
bed thinking it is how you feel when you freeze to
douth got up in the morning and I said, honey,
I'm done, and we drove all the way back to Sydney,
you know, and we're driving in the in the in
(35:15):
the car coming home, and it looks at me and goes, well,
he goes, well, maybe that didn't work out, but we've
got lots of you know, lots more anniversaries to come.
Great honey, dead silence on. No, it was, it was lovely.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
It was.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
I remember a few years ago when he was thinking
of getting his wedding ring tattooed, and you said, you
do already be married about thirty eight years. I mean
you said that's too permanent.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
That's pretty permanent.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Honey, Oh god, I know.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Okay, well, yeah he does hold that one against.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Happy anniversary.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
If anything we've seen, including Anita's terrible marital walls, if
anything stickled your fancy, please let us know. We're always
loved to keep this discussion going with you guys, and
see you next time. See the gol
This podcast is for general information only and should not
be taken as psychological advice. Listeners should consult with their
healthcare professionals for a specific medical advice.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Hello. I'm Amanda Keller and I'm Anita McGregor, and welcome
to Double a Chattery. How are you, Anita?
Speaker 1 (00:33):
I am still fighting a called, but I am Other
than that, I'm doing quite well.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
How are you feeling unwell? Just sounding a bit mucacy?
Speaker 1 (00:39):
I'm just I think I've just got that mucasy sound
I think it makes in my head. It makes me
sound really sultry.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Look, it's safer for you than smoking all those cigarettes
to get that kind of Lauren Bacall audio feel guy.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
It's so nice to have reached puberty, let me tell you.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
And on that note, and on that note, let's talk
first of all about some of the feedback. We got
many comments about the role of memory and the Salt
Path story that we were telling about. And because I've
just got a follow up to that in that now
that that first book and there are follow up books
to that, that first book now has been kind of
(01:21):
tarnished because even though they said this is absolutely a
true story, there are enough discrepancies in some of the
big things like how they lost their house, the nature
of a husband's disease, et cetera. That had made people
feel like some of those fundamentals that made them connect
with those characters had shifted a little. Well now I
saw an interview with a journalist from The Observer, which
(01:43):
is the newspaper that broke this story in the first place,
and other people have reached out who've been featured a
little negatively in that first book. There's an Australian couple
who said they met them as they were hiking around
the southwest is it to the south coast of England, Yeah,
and been painted as There was a description of them
as a couple, the woman of which was saying as
(02:06):
if she was more interested in looking for a local
hair salon. And there's a photo of them who looked
like fellow hikers, just as disheveled as the protagonists. And
they said, well, I didn't take kindly to that description,
but I wouldn't have said anything but within that they
were walking in a different direction to us. We crossed paths,
we weren't going in the same direction. And this was
(02:28):
several years later. So they said that they were walking
a certain way on that trip and that's what they
were doing. Whe was In fact, this puts into question
were they walking in that direction at all, which is
a big part of the story as to where they
went and what year was it, because the follow up
book has them doing something similar another year, and so
(02:50):
these details may not matter in the scheme of things.
But once you discredit a little bit, people are coming
out of the woodwork. There's a fish and chip shop
or a cafe that they stopped somewhere along the way
and they said that the waiter had been so rude
or the owner came out and swore at the waiter,
what the effort you're doing, blah blah blah was so
(03:11):
rude that he said, that's it. I quit and stormed
out while they were there. And the cafe itself has said,
this is a bit a family run business. No one's
ever spoken to each other like that in here, and
no one's ever stormed out with family.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
And so they said, this is a very small community here, yeah,
and to be have our cafe, our business discredited in
this way has been a really big deal for us.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Wow. So you know, it's small things and large things
that are being questioned now.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yeah, And I think by opening the door to the
large things, the small things are now being questioned. And
do the small things matter? We spoke last time about
whether even the big things matter and how much you
care about how real it is. But once you open
the door to how much of it is real, all
the small stuff gets discret credited too.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Oh it's it does? How does it make you feel? Like?
Does it make you kind of go? I wouldn't read
any anymore by this, I think. So you're the one
who'd read that first one. I'd read about the controversy
and knew of it. Yeah, but I haven't actually read
the book which you had loved. I had really loved
the book.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Would it stop you reading the next one in the series?
Speaker 1 (04:23):
You know what? I think? I think so at this
point I think it would just make me start questioning.
And when I read, I just want to read for
the pure pleasure of it. I don't want to have
to think, well, did that really happen? Did that really happen?
And so it's actually put me off a little bit.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Which you want that other layer?
Speaker 1 (04:42):
I don't want that other layer. And I and on
the other hand. I know that not everything in a
biography is going to be true, or in a this
actually happened is going to be true. So yeah, but
it does kind of put me off a little bit.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
This is why fairy porn and drag and porn will
never let you down, because it's all true.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
It's it is absolutely live stuff like it is just
it just it happens.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
It's like looking at a documentary.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
What do you mean, like there was.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
A scene because I can is the expression suspend belief,
will suspend disbelief? What's the expression?
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Well, it would have to be suspend disbelief. No, suspend belief,
suspend belief.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
In the drag in the the Court of Thorns and
Roses where they're having it off with giant batman that
you know, you think that's attractive, but then when you
start to picture how it is when you're having off
with someone with a normous set of bat wings, you
sort of think, oh, I don't want to have to
think about that bit. No, I don't have to worry
about their bat wings.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
But maybe it would, I don't know, maybe it had
added something I don't know, like it's maybe it would Yeah,
I mean, yeah, I would you just I don't even
like the idea of holding about so you know, you
never have it off with a ratman, would No, I
would never know, or a snake man that that would
not be your thing. No, it would not be my thing.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
How about a centaur? Is that half goat half man or.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Horse half man?
Speaker 2 (06:11):
I saw someone saying that hands on which horses head,
and then normal man from the waist down. The worst
of all options, the teeth stealing all your apples. I
saw someone saying the other day, if you if you
were a centaur, what do you do with your arms
(06:31):
when you're running?
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Oh? That would look hard, but it would it'd give
you the eck.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Even if you thought how attractive they are, it'll give
you the ik when you saw what happened to their
arms when they're running.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
So they have like but they have four hoofs, like
four horse legs, and then and then arms and then
arms the full kind of torso up. Yes, yeah, no,
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
I don't know. That's for another discussion, is for yeah,
that is for over a bottle of wine or anything
you'd like to adback.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Yes, I loved the feedback around the witchcraft one, and
I really liked that. There was a comment from Rose
I think as Milliken and she's a witch, and she
talked about her perspective of the history of witchcraft and
(07:28):
really pointing out about how history was really shaped by
the men who wrote about it, obviously, and thinking about
how witchcraft is really kind of a benign source of
healing and of trying to make wishes come true, that
all all that kind of stuff. And I really loved
(07:50):
the way that she ended this, which was it's worth
remembering most of what we think we know about witches
comes from the pens of men with an agenda, And
I thought brilliant, just brilliant. So it's it. It really,
the more that I understand history, the more I hear
about it, the more I read about it, the more
(08:12):
I realize it's in a history is made by the victor,
not the vanquished, and it's and it's often about men
who are writing this from a particular perspective with a
particular outcome. So it's yeah, it was. It was lovely
to hear that comment.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Thank you for all of your comments, and which try
I reference more of that as I go. Yeah, all right, well, today, Anita,
let's talk about sex education.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Lat's not not not to do with centaurs or bat
wings or anything to do without.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Really, I've done some drawings.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
We still make shoes off. Centaurus wouldn't have shoes.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Horses shoes, That's what I mean. Horses have shoes. They'd
have to come off good.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
One.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
You're not bringing that mud in here over to you, Anita,
sex education one on one.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Begin So what made me think about this, Amanda, is
that I was reading an article about the fiftieth anniversary
of a book called Where Did I Come From? By
Peter Male, who is a UK author and fifty years
see years, and apparently this was an iconic book for
(09:42):
teaching youngsters, young kids, those youngsters about sex education.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
I was in the drop zone of being too old
for it, and I don't think we used it for
the kids. I don't think so. But the book is very,
very famous, right up there with a women's Weekly Birthday
Party cookbook.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
I had that in Canada. I had that book, did you?
I did? And I kept thinking I'd look at all
these these birthday cakes and go, I don't, I don't.
I don't have the skill to do these.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
But they were amazed. They were amazing, but don't get
those books confused. Don't use the swimming Pool cake to
teach sex education. Okay, well you can if you like,
but it will confuse everybody.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
So, Mando, I'm going to ask you a question, since
you were out of the drop zone for that book,
how did you find out about sex?
Speaker 2 (10:31):
I think at school I came from a family with
this stuff wasn't really spoken about easily. Not that we
were repressed or anything, but it just wasn't part of
the conversation. I don't think it was for my friends
necessarily either. I remember sitting through a film at school,
and I can still hear it was as the film
went through the projector it was so old it was
(10:51):
sort of wildly like that. Yeah, yes, and that was
about menstruation. I sat through the whole thing and it
is only talking about it with somebody afterwards. I thought, Oh,
that's period. I watched the whole film, and I think
it must have been so medicalized and so just devoid
of a human body that I didn't equate that with that.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
And I got my period at eleven.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Oh that's young.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yeah, So I knew nothing about it. I don't know.
I didn't know what it was. I didn't know what
it symbolized, but I knew I knew what a period was,
but I didn't know the biology of it, and there
was no one I could talk to. I mean, I
told my mother obviously, but I had to wear those
old pads that were like with the waste with the
waste thing, and so stuff had just come out. Besides,
(11:37):
it was horrendous, and no one I knew had their period.
And then over the years, girls who didn't get it
till they were sixteen were anxious that they weren't going
to get it. Oh yeah, it was a period of
anxiety for everybody. But in terms of this sexual act,
I think we were in We went to school to
see films and you sat with a parent, which was mortifying.
And I remember once there was some there was.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
A co ad because you went to a called coed. Yes, yeah,
so you would be in the room with your parents
watching with other boys and girls, so.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
In a jig hall, and I remember at some point
they said you don't take your clothes off for people
outside your family, and I remember Mum saying to me,
that's right a manner and turning to me. I was
the most prudish person in the universe to this day
that I just still remember the horror of her saying
that to me, is if your poor doctor, as if
(12:28):
i'd been I transgressed earlier. Oh my god, I know
that might be mum's particular thing. I don't know. I
don't know, but vaguely. We didn't speak about it at
home necessarily. But that was where I got my basic education.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
And it's interesting that there's for me too. I remember
I was probably eleven or twelve, maybe even a little younger,
and my mum Kotex, which was a brand that used
to make tampons, handed me this and pads, and she
handed me this little pamphlet which is now in a
(13:02):
museum as I looked up, which doesn't age me at all, no,
And it was called on Becoming a Woman, and it
was it was a tiny little pamphlet, I remember, and
you'd you know, it was all about mostly about what
periods were and what their products were, and basically like
(13:23):
how to insert a tampon, how to use a pad?
Did your mother outsource it to the broch She kind
of well, now, she like later on she swore that
she set us My sister and I down and had
a conversation with us, but I don't remember it. I
think I would have remembered that conversation just in its awkwardness,
because my mother would have been terribly awkward about having it.
(13:46):
And then we learned about it in probably in our
equivalent of junior high, which was year seven to nine.
So and again it would have been one of those
terrible projector you know films that would have just.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
The and the anatomy from the side with the best
deference and this. And I think that's why the Where
Did I Come From book was so shocking for so
many people because it was the next step of this
can be pleasurable for mom and dad well.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
And it talked about like remember I remember all the
film stuff being very like technical, and it was you know,
you got about as much as when a man loves
a woman and they're married, then this will you know
then that then this act can happen. But there was
nothing about the ethics of it, nothing about you know,
(14:40):
lusty feelings, nothing about consent, nothing about any of those things.
It was really about the medical act of sexuality, and
that was really about it. And maybe that's where babies
come from. Kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yes, it's not about sex. It's about where babies come from.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yeah, not about pleasure, not about anything.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
No, And I remember wondering if you had to have
sex every time you had a baby, or if the
eggs were stored in there and that it's got fertilized
every now and then they're in the fridge somewhere, which
mine were with IVF and then a baby came out.
But I was too embarrassed to ask my family about it.
And there wasn't any googling, which is the problem these days.
You can just type in that and then it leads
you down the worst garden path in the history of
(15:20):
the universe.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
But there was like, I don't remember anything about masturbation,
about you know, anything like that. And you know, certainly
as a as a younger, like you know, ten eleven,
twelve thirteen, I probably didn't even realize that women could masturbate.
It was the idea that that was something men. Men
did jokes about teenage boys, Yeah, growing hair on their
(15:43):
palms and you know that kind of thing. Yeah, that
was it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
We had a pe teacher who I think she used
to walk around and sort of in her undies in
the Chaine rooms, and we were a bit confronted by that,
but she she took that usually the pe teachers that
took those sort of classes, and she said something if
you ever rub yourself against a balance beam and go,
oh that feels nice, and we're going, oh my god.
We were so horrified that I didn't equate that with masturbation.
(16:09):
All I remember is, isn't it funny? These are the
phrases that have stuck in my head, Amanda, don't take
your clothes off in front of strangers and what happens
if you rub yourself on a balance beam? They're pretty
much the two phrases that have stuck with me to
my advanced age.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Now that is your understanding of education.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Jonesy how I do at the radio show with said
that his wife took long there some years ago and
there were big illustrations of different body parts and you
had to stand out the front with them, and she
had to stand out the front holding a big sign
and a big drawing that said scrotum. And I suggested
that's what she takes when she kicks them up at
the airport. But no matter what generation you are, it's mortifying.
(17:05):
It's embarrassing as the movie you know what's there's the
movie Mean Girls, where the mom I'm a cool Mamma,
cool mom, whether you're good with it, whether you're embarrassed
by you do not want these conversations with your parents.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Well, it's you know, it's funny because the equivalent of
where did that book? Where did I come From? In Canada,
at least for our family, was a book that's called
Mummy Laid an Egg by the back Call And we
had this this book. We had a bookshelf that was
outside the boys rooms and hilariously, your boys, my boys,
(17:40):
and I would find that book and it was hilarious
because it was it was kind of these little drawings
of you know, eggs and sperm and parents fitting together,
all the different ways they were on like a space,
you know, bouncy ball, and it was very funny. It
was a very funny book. And that book would end
up in my kid's bedrooms four months at a time.
(18:03):
It was just, you know, they liked having their information
that way. I found out later I was just doing
a Google search on this book and it was actually
bound in the States, in several states because it had
drawings of whole naked adults in a cartoon way, which
(18:23):
I thought was hilarious.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
In a cartoon way.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Remember the book The Joy of Sex. Oh yeah, it
was nineteen seventies, I'm guessing. And everyone was so hairy
you couldn't tell where he ended and she began. Everyone's armpits, genitals,
everything was just every drawing of the guy had enormous beards.
They were all lounging on bean bags.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
And nobody was this wildly attractive like it was kind
of bodies. There were just these adult bodies, which I
thought was really.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Lovely, yes, but still confronting and strange. Yeah. Yeah, and
those bodies will be so alien to our children, oh,
hairless bodies. When I knew we're going to be talking
about this, my son Jack is twenty two, was over
the other day and I asked him about sex education.
Here remembers learning at school more about consent issues. I
(19:12):
think they all probably learn about the act itself, probably
from the Internet and from each other. I don't remember
having the chat with them. I don't know if Harley did,
But these days the schools are pretty good at all
of that. But in their high schools they'd have someone
come in and talk to them about consent and the
role of all the being careful of including technology in
(19:36):
if you share photos all that kind of.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Stuff that's sexting thing.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
The whole thing is a different ballgame. Excuse that dreadful partner.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
And like, I talked to my boys as well, and
they were like, because it got to kind of be
a family joke where I would say something would come
up often about consent issues or those kinds of things
in a film or something, and I'd say, like to
talk about sex now, boys, and they go, oh, no, Mom,
let's not. Because it was there was this whole idea
(20:06):
that I would just put stuff out there on you know,
to discuss and and I still remember that. My son's
Ben was saying the other day that he was in
class and maybe year eight or nine, and there was
a discussion about using you know, heroin or something and
the teacher goes, well, I'm not sure how it can
(20:27):
be used, and he piped up, well it can be
used this way, in this way, in this way, and
the teacher just, you know, her jaw dropped and was like,
you know, how do you how do you know about that?
And he goes, well, my mom's a psychology she talks
about with us all the time about you know, everything,
So there was really nothing off the plate. And you know,
it's funny that my boys, I don't think that they
(20:48):
were scarred by those awkward conversations, but we I wanted
to make sure my children really understood about issues around
consent and that there wasn't any anything that they felt
that they couldn't we couldn't talk about.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
But for every family that's that, there's a family that
will never talk about it, and the school has to
try and span all of that. And what's interesting is
I think too that as you tend to think that
set's education advances along that we know more, we fit
in with this new generation more and more and more.
But I'm sort of wondering about modern America at the moment.
(21:28):
You would not be learning in many states about LGB
two QI, you'd not be learning about gender identity, you
would not be learning about maybe planned parenthood, some reception
contraception in those some places. That would be going backwards.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Yeah, yeah, And that's quite terrifying because then you get
this perfect storm where many of the states have banned abortions,
and you know, and the whole idea around planned parenthood
being defunded, which means that people aren't getting prenatal care.
It just continuously. Yeah, it is this perfect storm.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
So the same states that won't fund the education don't
fund the result.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Yeah, they're likely all, yeah, the same kinds of states.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Yeah, And I think also, don't the studies show that
the states within which the parents don't want their children
you can opt out for your child to learn this stuff.
The states where they don't want the schools to be
teaching their kids, they're the ones that aren't going to
teach them at home.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Yeah. Yeah, And so you've got this generation of kids who,
you know, how are they learning about about sex education?
And it's and I you know, I say that kind
of that term a little lately because many of them
would probably be learning through the internet and you know,
and accessing porn. And that's actually you know, as you said,
(22:54):
you know, hairless people having all kinds of sex, and
that make it look that make things like lack of
consent look okay.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Interesting? Isn't it that we're at a time wherein in
some communities, we're teaching more about consent than has ever
been discussed before. But we're also next to that thing
the rise of the manosphere. The Andrew tates the online
presence of men who say, we've been suppressed for too
long time to exert your influence over women again. So
both those things exist at the same time.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Does it feel like from the time that you were
a young woman where you know, there was that that
whole thing about you know, women may say no, but
they really mean yaos, and you know that that whole
kind of idea about women ask for it and look
at where she was wearing and that, and that seemed
to have changed generationally that now there's you know, the
(23:49):
understanding about consent. There was an understanding, but it seems
like we're that that pendulum is swinging back again to
this manosphere thing where men are feeling more entitled and
feeling like women are holding out on them in some way.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
I think you're right, But also women have always women.
I'm hoping today women are more bolshy about speaking up
about it. In the puberty Blues era in Australia, that
you were treated poorly and you just put up with it.
I don't think. I'd like to think young women don't
do that anymore, But then they're butting up against these
guys and the sort of this rap culture that's very
(24:30):
sexual and you know, in our day and this is
we're about one hundred minutes of people to be saying this.
But if you flicked open to a page of the
Joy of Sex, you weren't going to be scarred for life.
But you can google an image that will stay with
you forever, and an image that you're not seeking out.
And also, we used to think that guys would look
(24:51):
at Playboy, they'd know that real women didn't look like that.
Now I wonder if young men do expect the bodies
to look like the bodies they're seeing in pornography. You
expect girls to be open to anal sex and all
kinds of stuff, and the girls have an expectation that
that's their role as well.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
There was statistics that we sought out on young people
having sex in Australia. This was this was vaginal sacks
forty four percent have had vaginal sacks thirty two percent
by year ten and fifty two percent by year twelve. Yeah,
and for anal sex it was eight percent by year ten,
(25:28):
oh my god, sixteen percent by year twelve, and oral
sax thirty nine percent by year ten and sixty one
percent by year twelve.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
So it is and do we presume that that's giving
rather than receiving the anal of the Sorry, the oral
sex is that scene because you hear about lipstick parties yep,
where guys girls put on really bright lipstick, Guys see
how many lipstick marks they get, and girls still feel
like they've got their virginity, they've held onto their virginity,
(26:01):
but they've consented to these other acts that's not seen
as a sex sect necessarily like sex.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
But but I haven't had sex. I haven't had sex,
or I've had anal sex, but I haven't had Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
So everyone chooses where they draw the line in all
of this. What a mess.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
What a mess it really is, And it just it
makes me think about how do we create that environment
where consent is a conversation, where there is that respect.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
But it can still be sexy and fun.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
And it can still be sexy and fun. Like I was,
you know, thinking about this black Humored show that was
talking about how it was these two people having sex
and they both had little video cams on their chest
and they had to go and look at each other's
little cameras and say, you know, yes I consent to
have you know, you know, full penetration sex with you.
(26:58):
You know, like it was a very odd you know,
and you know, I can hear people thinking, oh, well that's.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Where we're you get wowsers saying well, if you keep
going down here, that's where you're going. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Yeah, But I also think, like where where does the
fun come in it? And and that's what I really
in looking at this this where did I come from?
Is that it the you know, it seemed as though
it was trying to make sex fun, like it was
trying to get back to this is a pleasurable thing,
and we need to move away from that Victorian. You know,
(27:28):
we have to cover up the piano legs because you know,
we don't want men to get aroused by that.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Was that really a thing? There was really a thing? Really?
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Yeah, that's why you have table claws and stuff to
go and cover up tea. Yeah, yeah, you don't. You
don't want men to get roused, for heaven's sakes, Amanda.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
And yet women were allowed to wear trousers. But what
a funny world we live in. Interesting looking at the
parents involvement, and I'm just thinking more of the States
than anything than new vigilanteism has been the school board.
This happened during the COVID years. The Mum's group on
Facebook took over the school board and we're encouraged to
(28:10):
do so.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Let's burn some books, burn some books.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
And they're now setting the curriculum and agenda for how
people are going to learn about sex. Is it the
same conversation about we know about nutrition, and people will
still eat badly because they choose to. It's cheaper, their
time poor. By and large, people know that sex equals this,
sex may equal a baby these days. You know about
(28:36):
contraception if you can. How much education is going to
change that stuff? Well?
Speaker 1 (28:41):
I think that And again I think that the pendulum
is swinging because it used to be again in that
era of AIDS and all the STIs and all those
kinds of things, is that there was a lot of
education about you know, wrap that rascal, you know, where
a condom?
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Do you know?
Speaker 1 (28:58):
That kind of thing? And then what you know now
it seems it's though unprotected sex seems to be more common.
You know, it's it's I don't know it's it is.
You know, it's because sex education. It's not just about
you know, penis and vagina, it's so much about consent.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
That's right. That's what I think I was meaning is
the sex in vagina, sex in vagina. That's how much
I know sex in vagina can happen. Is that the
is the sex act itself. We know what that is
pretty much, and in schools they know what that is
and they know what that can lead to in terms
of babies. It is more education around consent that's required
(29:38):
as to how you're able to navigate your relationships.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Well and healthy sexuality. What does that actually mean for
things like STIs, for things like you know, what are
you willing to?
Speaker 2 (29:51):
You know?
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Where are your boundaries in a relationship? Because there's still
got to be that pressure about guys saying, what was
the old thing about boys getting blue ball?
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Yes, yeah, she has a headache. Pressure, those old stereotypes.
There's all those old stereotypes, and we need to get
past that. Yes, although I do sometimes get headaches, of
course you do, of course you do. I need No
one's disputing that, at least all your husband, that's right,
don't talk to him. But I'd be interested to know
how modern sex education works. In the teacups lives. The
(30:24):
conversations you're having with your kids. Is has school and
the internet taken over that? And is that a relief?
Do you still feel that you can have those you'd
still need to have those conversations?
Speaker 1 (30:35):
What are our responsibilities as parents? Were grandparents?
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Oh my god, imagine getting sex education from your grandparents?
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Could you imagine? Oh?
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Wow? I remember our mutual friend Margaret. I think it
was the night she got married or one of her
husband's sisters had said that their mother or grandmother had
put some olive oil and a handtown next to the
bed and said, don't worry, darling, that's what you need.
And she had no idea what she was talking about.
But that was that generation of here's how sex education goes,
(31:08):
the night of your wedding, bit of olive oil and
a handtoul think you're supposed to make past? Oh, please
enlighten us as to how it's worked in your household?
Where you think we go? He has the school done
a good job by your kids? We'd love tonight we
(31:28):
were Shall we get to our glimmers?
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Let's you first.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
When I went to the Logis a few weeks ago,
I was pleasantly surprised by how many great Australian shows
were nominated, but shows that I haven't seen. I go
to bed early because I get up early. But it
was a great reminder to me to watch some great
Australian content, and I started watching the twelve. Have you
heard of this? No, it's good, It's so good. Sam
(32:02):
Neil won a logo for his role in this. And
I sound like a tossle when I say a friend
of mine who's a lawyer, had suggested I watch this
series when it was a Belgian series. I think I
first watched it in my nature of Belgian. What's the
language Flemish? Flemish in my Slimmish. I watched the first
(32:23):
season years ago, so they've done a remake of that
for this Australian series.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
But I've just watched series two.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
And the acting is brilliant, the writing is brilliant, the
storytelling is great. And I sound patronizing when I say
it's world class, but I thought, what a great reminder
for me to watch more Australian television.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
I keep thinking I would love to watch more free
da eraror stuff, because there is some really quality TV
out there. And I think that we somehow get riveted
by our you know, when we turn our TV on,
it's the streaming services.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
This one was on stand. This one was on stand
but Fisk the Australian to have you watched Fisk that
won five logis on the night. It is a brilliant
It's by my friend Kitty Flanagan. She's written it with
her sisters, who I love too great. She is great.
That is a great comedy series. So yes, absolutely on
Free to Wear. There's a lot of stuff to soak
(33:24):
up as well.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Oh that's lovely my turn. It doesn't quite sound like
a glimmer, but it was so my Emma and I
celebrated our thirty ninth anniversary. That sounds like a glimmer,
well that is that is And we decided to go
and get a little tiny home in the Blue Mountains
for the weekend. And it's a tiny home. It's all
(33:48):
designated small house. It is like these tiny little there there.
I don't even know how many square feet they are,
but they're you know, they're made to be uber efficient
in high of aspects. So the kitchen is tiny, you know,
there's it's often got a little loft where just the
bed is. They've got little cupboards and everything. It's very sweet.
(34:10):
And so we got out there and we knew that
the weather wasn't going to be great, but we thought
it'll be great. You know, it'll be fine. We'll go
for walks and stuff. We get out there and one
of the selling features was that it was going to
have a hot tub, but we couldn't get the hot
tub to fill, and even if we could, we couldn't
get the fireplace that heated up the hot tub because
(34:31):
there was no fire starters. We got into the place,
we turned the heat on because it was about three
degrees you could see your breath and the after about
an hour and a half, we got a notification of
we were using too much power because it's solar powered
and there'd been no sun because it had been raining,
and we're like, what are we supposed to do here?
Just you know, freeze to death. So it was hilarious.
(34:54):
It was just this complete causey sound hilarious and it
wasn't so much at the time, but we went to
bed thinking it is how you feel when you freeze to
douth got up in the morning and I said, honey,
I'm done, and we drove all the way back to Sydney,
you know, and we're driving in the in the in
(35:15):
the car coming home, and it looks at me and goes, well,
he goes, well, maybe that didn't work out, but we've
got lots of you know, lots more anniversaries to come.
Great honey, dead silence on. No, it was, it was lovely.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
It was.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
I remember a few years ago when he was thinking
of getting his wedding ring tattooed, and you said, you
do already be married about thirty eight years. I mean
you said that's too permanent.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
That's pretty permanent.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Honey, Oh god, I know.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Okay, well, yeah he does hold that one against.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Happy anniversary.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
If anything we've seen, including Anita's terrible marital walls, if
anything stickled your fancy, please let us know. We're always
loved to keep this discussion going with you guys, and
see you next time. See the gol
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