December 3, 2025 • 27 mins
This week on Double A Chattery, we’re joined by Dr Richard “Harry” Harris, the anaesthetist and cave diver who helped rescue the 12 Thai boys and their coach in 2018. Harry talks through what was really happening in those crucial days, why he initially didn’t want to sedate the boys, how he made a decision when there was no good option, and what it’s like to hold that level of responsibility underwater and in medicine.
We also zoom out to everyday life: why Harry says he’s not a risk-taker but a risk manager, why so many of us misjudge danger, and whether we’ve become too risk-averse as a society. He and Anita compare notes on how we learn to cope with failure, build resilience, and teach young people to take healthy risks. Harry also opens up about life after decompression sickness and his new passion for underwater filmmaking.
The Double A Chattery podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute professional health care services, including the giving of medical advice. No doctor/patient relationship is formed and this podcast is no substitute for professional psychological or other medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. The use of information in this podcast is at the listener’s own risk. Listeners should seek the help of their health care professionals for any medical conditions.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is for general information only and should not
be taken as psychological advice. Listeners should consult with their
healthcare professionals for a specific medical advice.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Well.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Hello, I'm Amanda.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Keller and I'm Anita McGregor, and welcome to Double A Chattery.
Speaker 4 (00:31):
Richard Harris, or Harry, as is known, became part of
the Australian psyche when he played an integral role in
the rescue of twelve Thai boys and their soccer coach
from a flooding cave in Thailand in twenty eighteen. As
an anethetist and a seasoned cave diver himself, he had
the perfect skill set needed to execute a daring plan
to sedate the boys and help swim them to safety
(00:53):
no stranger to risk assessment. Harry now hosts a podcast
exploring just that, and he joins us next on Double
A Chatter.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Harry, Hello, good morning, good morning.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Good morning.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
Anita's had some history of diving, but even to both
of us, and you agree and Nita, cave diving sounds horrific.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
It's well, what I'm what I'm kind of curious about, Harry,
is that I mean, I am aware of the wristler
inherent and just being a recreational diver, but you know
the exponential additional risk in being a cave diving. I mean,
what attracted you to that, to that activity that I
was going to say, Harby, But it's more than that,
(01:42):
isn't it.
Speaker 5 (01:44):
Can I go off on a bit of a tangent
already and just say that your response is exactly the
response one that made me interested in risk because and
the whole hypothesis or premise of my podcast was why
do people keep thinking what I do is crazy or
unhinged or too dangerous? Because I don't feel like I'm
a risk taker. I don't feel like I seek out danger,
(02:06):
and I certainly don't feel brave. So why is it
that I love doing this thing which obviously for many
people of strikes at the core of their primal fears.
And so that was why I sought out other risk
takers who did stuff that frightened me to find out
if actually they were crazy or are they actually just
liked me good risk managers? So back to your question, sorry,
(02:27):
I'll read trace. I started out as someone who loved
the ocean, loved diving from a very young age. In
my early teens, and it almost seemed like a natural
progression for me to seek out other diving experiences and
Adelaide were lucky to be just a few hours from
Mount Gambia, which is home to many of the Australia's
(02:48):
most beautiful caves and seek holes flooded with water, and
so as a diving instructor in our university dive club,
a group of us went down to see what it
was all about, and that was when I became a
bit obsessed.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
Vital You say that you're not by nature a risk taker,
but I'd like to know how you went about assessing
the risk in those panicky, terrifying days where you were
called on basically not on your own, I know, but
to save those boys in the cave, your idea, you
(03:20):
didn't want to anesetize the boys in the end, that's
the way you ended up doing it. How did you
cope with looking at all the different risks? How did
you assess it?
Speaker 5 (03:32):
Yeah? Step by step? I think you know, it was
overwhelming when I first got there, the amount of almost
chaos that appeared to be on site. You know, there
were thousands of people in or around that mountain. That's
pouring with rain, everyone's waiting around in Maud up to
their midshins and trying to just absorb it all and
make head or tail of it all. Was the first thing,
(03:54):
just to sort of cope with the sensory overload. So
the first thing I did was seek out the Britainish
divers who already knew and who were there, and you know,
you want to talk to your own tribe when you
get to somewhere like that, and ask their opinion, what's
going on, what's the cave like, what plans have been tried?
What plans have you got? And of course the sedation
(04:15):
plan was at the front of mine for Rick Stanton,
the guy who rang me and proposed that idea, and
I kind of went with, yeah, but what other plans
have you got? Because I was very intent not to
go down that path. And over the next twenty four
to thirty six hours, I guess one by one I
had a chance to look at all the stuff that
(04:36):
was in place and realized along with Rick, that he
was right. There was no way these boys were going
to come out alive. So I was just faced with
this question, do I give this thing a try? That
I felt would result in one hundred percent fatality for
the boys, but at least they would be back with
their parents. Or do I get on a plane and
go home and leave them to perish over a prolonged
(04:56):
period of time in at the back of a cave,
and you know, their skeletal remains removed maybe three to
six months later. And I think the thing that got
me over the line was the fact that if I
did do this, and presumably if they drowned or died
under the anesthetic, they're going to die anyway, So at
least they'll be asleep when that happens, and they'll be
(05:18):
returned to their parents looking like their sons still. And
I know it's a pretty poor basis for a plan,
but actually that just seemed like the right thing to do.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
How did you deal?
Speaker 4 (05:30):
Maybe you didn't have to think about this, or you
chose not to think about this, but.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
The whole world held their breath.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
How would the world have coped or how would you
have coped with this collective grief if the result hadn't
been good?
Speaker 5 (05:44):
Oh, very differently, I'm sure, and my wife is far
more perceptive than I am, recognized all those risks. You know,
what's the risk to me, my mental health, my career,
my future. How would I respond to, you know, the
deaths of these boys essentially at my hands. But I
(06:05):
think in that moment, you don't think through all the
possible outcomes. You know, maybe it passes through your mind,
but you just faced this task and you make a
decision this is the right thing to do. And I
find that I'm able to put that stuff out of
my mind and not think about it, which can get
you into trouble a bit. I tend to rush into
(06:26):
stuff of it sometimes, but I think if I had
to wlp on those issues, then maybe I couldn't have
had the courage to go ahead.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
So I've got to say that that ability to keep
your head when everyone around you is losing their minds
is such an attractive trait, And I'm wondering if you
feel that that is an iniche trait or a curated one.
You're saying that sometimes you jump into things, but my
(06:56):
sense is that there's probably some logic or or a
thought behind you jumping in.
Speaker 5 (07:03):
I think you have to come from a starting point
of enjoying a bit of excitement and hasard either in
your workplace, which I guess I've done for many decades
now worth in critical care medicine and having to be
involved in life or death decisions on behalf of your patients.
And sometimes that can be in a real hurry. Of course,
(07:24):
you suddenly you faced with someone who has minutes to live.
If you don't act and respond in the best possible way,
then you know you and sometimes actually you can be
the cause of their undoing. As an anthetist, you know,
you render someone unconscious, stop their breathing. And I don't
want to frighten people about what happens when you have
(07:45):
an anesthetic, but of course you have to have the
skills and wherewithal to take over and manage all those
systems on their behalf. So occasionally and very rarely obviously fortunately,
but occasionally that goes wrong and it doesn't go to plan,
and a problem, right is that is difficult to manage,
and that's when you need to keep you calm and
be able to push back panic, which is only a
(08:08):
minute away obviously for everyone.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
Man.
Speaker 5 (08:10):
I think that's the curated part is that with experience
you learn to hold panic at bay and do the
best you can for as long as you can, and
certainly underwater in a cave. That is a very essential
skill to curate because inevitably in cave diving is with
all diving, if you do enough of it, probably you
might have a situation where a problem arises, and if
(08:33):
you're panic, then you lose that ability to make decisions
or keep in control of the situation. As soon as
you panic. I'm sure that's when death is very close.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
You know.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
I think about I would imagine in your day to
day life, work life, but as well as when you
are going through these kinds of situations with your kieve diving,
that you do some kind of after action review, like,
you know, what can we learn from you know, the
things that went right, the things that might have gone wrong?
(09:09):
You know, I'm thinking about what kind of lesson can
you know could you take from that experience.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
Even though it was such a hard specific yes, because
it is so specific set of circumstances, What could can
you share that you've learned from that?
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Well?
Speaker 5 (09:30):
I think the thing I'm most proud of perhaps is
firstly that I found the courage to make a decision
when there was no right decision, and in retrospect, I
mean this is seven years ago, now, so I'm now
looking through the lens of a successful operation. So it's
actually very hard to remember exactly what was in your
mind at those those points in time. But I think
(09:53):
to be able to make a decision to move forward
is very important and I and I often say to
people like that, that's what I have respected in my
career in leaders that I've worked with people who fluster
and stall. It's hard to respect that because you know
that paralysis can literally be death or certainly death in
an organization or in a business. You know, if you
(10:15):
can't make a decision, then you're going nowhere. The other
thing I think I've learned, and my friend Craig Shallon,
you know, who's been a dive buddy and a companion
and some of these events for a very long time
or some of these circumstances, he always says the importance
of being an enthusiast and a generalist and learning as
(10:37):
many skills in life as possible, you know, to learn
something about the arts and the internal combustion engine, and
to change the tire on your car, to mow the lawn.
Just you know, when I speak to young people, I
encourage them to take up as many opportunities to learn
different skills in life as possible, because the more around
it you are, the more you know a little bit
(10:57):
about everything, the more likely you are to be a
useful And actually, when I was in charge of employing
people in some of my workplaces, they were often the
people I kind of looked for or found myself drawn towards,
because someone with experiences, for example, a doctor who'd worked
in Africa with medicines on frontier, or someone who had
(11:19):
worked in a war zone, or someone who'd worked in
difficult environments. Sometimes those people bring that practical kind of
know how that makes for success in any kind of environment.
So I feel like Craig and I came to Thailand
with that kind of background, being kind of I wouldn't
say polymaths, but you know, people who have a bit
(11:39):
of a go at pretty much anything.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
We've talked about risk under those extraordinary circumstances, but what
about the role of risk in our everyday lives?
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Are we more risk averse than we used to be?
Speaker 5 (12:01):
I feel like society is, for sure, and this is
another bit of a hobby horse for me, so watch out.
And of course I'm speaking from a position of very
little expert knowledge.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
But.
Speaker 5 (12:14):
Widely read and chatting to more and more people about
this topic because I'm fascinated or more concerned actually about
this adolescent mental health epidemic that we are definitely facing.
And initially I thought it's just because, well, we're all
much more comfortable about talking about stuff, so maybe we're
just hearing about a lot more. But it seems and Anita,
(12:35):
you can tell me. I think the evidence is that
this is a real phenomenon. And I think there are
so many societal reasons, not just smartphones and the internet
and screen time, but this sense of needing to protect
our young people from any adverse experience. You know, the
classic story of the school who won't let anyone win anything.
(12:56):
Everyone just gets a ribbon for participation. You have to
learn to lose. You have to learn to be a
failure and deal with it and cope with it. And
you know, I was very practiced at that at school
because I was so bad at sports, you know, the
last kid to be standing there when people were picking
the team for the lunchhower.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
As an Australian, that's a terrible thing to say, isn't
It is terrible?
Speaker 5 (13:17):
It is terrible and look at the way we admire
our sports people. They can do no wrong. Really, and
I'm not going to name names, but I'm a bit
off some of our elite sports people who are in
the mainstream media and have been forgiven countless times for
fairly major discretions. And I'm not talking about young footballers
who play up in a nightclub, because I think you
(13:38):
know that that early fame and idolization that we give
them actually pushes them into some of these poor decisions.
But I'm talking about some of the more seasoned, older
people who do things that really, for me, would it
would be like black and white. You're out and you
can't come back. It's like the anesthetis who use this
ventanyl you know, you get one chance in that privileged position,
(14:01):
and if you get it wrong and you abuse it,
no matter what circumstance led you to do that. For me,
that is a very privileged position to be looking after
people's lives in that moment. If you're impaired because you're
using the drugs that you're supposed to be given the patient,
you have to find another job. You have to do
a talking job, not an anesthetizing job, or something else.
(14:21):
You know, I feel a bit the same a way,
a bit about some of these other people in the
media a bit.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
But anyway, I think you're preaching engine again. I was
going to say, you're preaching a little bit to the
converted here and that you know, I look at some
of the data that talk about how, you know, young
young adults, you know, eighteen to twenty, you know, how
many haven't ever held a job, or don't know how
to drive, have never had a relationship, have never left home,
(14:49):
have never you have never experienced the kinds of opportunities,
the kinds of challenges that we can have to go
and make mistakes. And I think that that it's you know,
the analogy I use is that if you you know,
when your kid is learning how to walk, and if
you just keep catching them and they never actually learn
(15:10):
how to fall down and get back up again, and
then they're sixteen and they want the car, you know,
it's kind of a you know, we need to be
able to assess risk well. And I mean that's that's
been my job for the you know, for thirty years,
is to assess risk. And I think that when I
teach risk assessment, I think it's you know, I talk
a lot about how how poor we are at it,
(15:31):
that you know, there are times where we really overestimate
risk and sometimes we're really underestimated.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
What's the role of risk assessment in your life and
your job? Donate it?
Speaker 1 (15:40):
So so I do risk assessment often for offending behavior,
so either violent or sexual violent behavior, And so you know,
we're looking at trying to predict a very low base
rate because I mean, even though we feel that it
may happen all the time, it's something that doesn't happen
(16:00):
very often. So we are using actuarial and structured professional
decision making tools to go and support us to try
to make good predictions about what may occur in an individual.
So it's you know, when I do think about it
that often when I'm teaching new psychologists how to do
(16:23):
this work, they tend to overestimate. They think everything is dangerous,
they think everybody is dangerous, and then you know, and
then I contrapose that with my husband Emmitt, who taught
height at Safety for you know, about thirty years, and
there is people who was like, I've been climbing for
twenty years and I haven't fallen yet, and they didn't
want it to use any protection, and it was kind
(16:45):
of like really like that. That just seems like a
very big things, both extremes, and so we have a
great deal of difficulty I think in general of figuring
out and again I think it's just getting worse because
not exposing ourselves to challenges, to risks, to reason to.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
Risk in an evolutionary sense, Harry, are humans designed to
not take risks? I mean, we're designed to save ourselves.
Speaker 5 (17:15):
I believe we are very much designed to take risks.
We have to from the earliest time of our lives.
I'm sure it's genetically encoded from I mean not so
much now in this very safe society that we are
fortunate to live in. It's not the same all around
the world obviously, but you know, for ancient forms of humans,
they had to take risks to gather food, to find shelter,
(17:38):
to attract a mate. One of my podcast is with
this amazing chapter Bill von Hippel, who's a professor at UQ.
I think it a while since I spoke to him,
but here he is an evolutionary psychologist. He goes right
into the all the reasons why risk and risk management
is innate and ingrained in us. We have to be
(18:00):
able to assess risk to move forward. And when everything's
provided on a plate for us and there appears to
be no risk around us, we lapse into this state
of uneasiness, maybe anxiety even And you know, as as
someone who has suffered with that myself, I have found
(18:20):
pushing myself into situations where I have to step up
a bit to look after myself, whether it's mentally or physically,
I've found that very therapeutic. And even just you know,
this concept of being in the outdoors and outdoor therapy
is massively good for our mental health. Just get outside
and walk up a hill and you know, look at nature.
(18:41):
It's it's enormously beneficial.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Up short, Amanda and I were talking earlier about the
you know, earlier societies where you know, we'd be there'd
be people who wanted to sit around the count fire
and you know, stay in community, and then there was
the people who would get on a boat and just
take off into the unknown. And I, you know, I
(19:07):
think in some ways it takes both kinds, doesn't it
in some ways to build a society mm hmmm, Because
you need that sense of community, but you also need
those people who aren't risk takers and who are willing
to go out and you know, find the next food source,
or you know, when things get overcrowded, to go and
move to a new site.
Speaker 5 (19:28):
So this concept, this concept of exploration, I find really
interesting because I've definitely got that exploration bug. I can't
sit on a boat and without looking at the horizon
and wondering, you know, what's out there, or looking into
the water and thinking what's down there. And some people
clearly don't have that need to fulfill that that interest
(19:50):
or that desire, whereas it's like an hitch that I
need to scratch. And that's why cave diving for me
has been so fantastic because it's one of those last
places on the planet that you can actually go and
find something that is unseen or untouched or unexplored. You know,
until you literally walk or swim around the corner in
a cave passage, you don't know whether it goes for
(20:11):
one hundred kilometers or another two meters. So it's a
great way to satisfy that urge to explore. And unless
you've got the budget to go to space or to
the bottom of the deep oceans, not many places on the.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
Planet left to do that, I'd be the person sitting
around the fire making a cup of tea.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Which would be just as useful. Okay, well, I would.
Speaker 5 (20:31):
Love to see you when I came home from my
day of exploring.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Harry, here's a couple I'd say, Yeah, Oh, Harry, I'm
just I'm curious, what is your next challenge? What is
your next big adventure? When it comes to cave diving.
Speaker 5 (20:46):
Well, my cave diving activities have been a little bit
curtailed because I got decompression sickness last year exploring a
very deep cave in South Africa. So I got a
minor spinal injury, but enough to me with some minor
symptoms in my legs, which probably tells me that maybe
that's enough for that deep exploration. But I haven't stopped
(21:09):
cave diving, and I've swung my interest from the exploration
back to camera work and imaging, which has been basically
something I've done since I was fifteen or sixteen years
of age. And I've bought my first little camera and
put it in a box and took it underwater. So
I've retired from medicine and I'm trying to establish myself
(21:29):
as an underwater camera person, and I've been starting to
get some success in that realm doing some work, and
also just released the first feature documentary called Deeper Don't
mind if I give that a little plug please, which
is in the cinemas at the moment, and that's about
an ongoing series of expeditions in a very deep cave
(21:49):
in New Zealand. So you know, that's a big tick
in a box for me to finally get something on
the big screen. So yeah, I mean life is very exciting,
certainly of opportunities for me.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
Did you start practicing with your endoscopes?
Speaker 4 (22:05):
Practicing no meaning in a human body when you're working
as a nisceness you say, hang on a minute, this
looks like a cave.
Speaker 5 (22:14):
Well, I did do a lot of colony, and I
would often reflect on what's around the next.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
And I'd be waiting there with a cup of tea.
Who Harry, thank you so much for joining us. It's
been such an insight. We'll put all the details of
your podcast on our socials as well. It's it's so
great to talk to someone who is so measured and
yet the joy of risk and the importance of risk
(22:43):
it's a fabulous message and thank you, thank you well thanks.
Speaker 5 (22:46):
For having me. I think it is important message, especially
for young people.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Give it a crack speaking of a colony, Harry, thank you.
Oh I loved him. Wasn't he interesting?
Speaker 1 (23:08):
He really was such an interesting insight into like the
whole process.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
And considering what a hero he's just as he says
that I'm an ordinary guy who could just who could
steal my mind when I had to, and what I
managed to do incredible kept his head.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
Should we get to our glimmers.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Let's get to our glimmers? What is yours?
Speaker 4 (23:29):
I'm going to start with something that I saw called
bean soup. I thought this sounds nice. I'm going to
find a recipe. But this woman actually uses bean soup
as a philosophy when she encounters stupid criticism on the internet.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
A lot of the internet sucks now because of the
bean soup theory. And if you missed it, a while ago,
someone shared a recipe for bean soup and instead of
people assessing do I want bean soup or do I
not want being soup, they said, well what about me?
And the comment section was subsequently filled with comments saying, well,
I don't like beans, what can I substitute these for?
Or I can't eat beans? What about this? Or what
(24:05):
can I do instead of beans in this bean soup?
And this self centered commentary is a big problem because
no matter what you share, it's always well, what about me?
What about me? What about me? Instead of acknowledging that
everything on the internet isn't actually about you? And I
have this happen literally so often. I say, oh, this
is a really cool thing that I love about not
(24:26):
having kids, and then I get parents being like, well, actually, no,
bean soup, this isn't about you. And I've shared reels
in the past talking about how you have free will.
You can do whatever you want. You can just like
move somewhere else if you want. It's going to take
work and it's going to take effort, but you can
do that. You can just go big cookies if you want.
And then people always respond with, well, this is privilege,
(24:46):
and I have to go to a job and I
can't just do that bean soup. This is obviously not
about you. Then, and this weird idea that everything you
come across on the internet has to be specifically catered
to you and your life. Everything about you, rather than
taking a step back and being like, does this apply
to me? Is this something that's applicable to my life
(25:08):
moving on? If it's not, it's always just what about me?
To wish? I respond, bean soup.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
I think we should all adopt that bean soup. Mean,
shut the hell up. If this doesn't suit you, I'm
not talking to you.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
I just love it. I just love it. Can I
give my can I do my soup?
Speaker 3 (25:27):
I've got no tolerance for you.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Well, you know, myke glimmer is kind of related to that,
is that you and I went away for the weekend
to your place down south and we had such a
lovely time. We watched episodes of All's Fair, which we
both loved to hate.
Speaker 4 (25:44):
This is the Kim Kardashian Lawyer show, where they dressed
like crazy women and pinstrike suits with the tea bar
hanging out the back.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Oh, it was extraordinarily bad. Yeah, it was just so
fun to do that. But Amanda, we had our first
fight was that. So when we went out to the
jetty and I pointed out that there was this huge
pelican and I went, you know, they looked just like pterodactyls,
and you looked at me, and you just turned to
me and were no.
Speaker 4 (26:14):
I meant to say yes, but some deep devil inside
me made me say no. We laughed and laugh because
it sounded like I was being a petulant.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Child you did. It was so funny. I don't know
where that came from.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
I'm used to working with Jonesy, so maybe I'm used
to disagree with people all the time.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Could be, but I just thought our first fade in
twenty years over a pterodactyl over a pterodactyl, So it's
going to be bean soup or a pterodactyl for safe words.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Well that was brilliant.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
If there's anything we've done today, including how you feel
about pelicans and pterodactyls, I'll let us know.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
I'm what to say bean soup. So get in touch.
We love all your comments, and we'll see you next time.
See yeah
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Oh
This podcast is for general information only and should not
be taken as psychological advice. Listeners should consult with their
healthcare professionals for a specific medical advice.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Well.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Hello, I'm Amanda.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Keller and I'm Anita McGregor, and welcome to Double A Chattery.
Speaker 4 (00:31):
Richard Harris, or Harry, as is known, became part of
the Australian psyche when he played an integral role in
the rescue of twelve Thai boys and their soccer coach
from a flooding cave in Thailand in twenty eighteen. As
an anethetist and a seasoned cave diver himself, he had
the perfect skill set needed to execute a daring plan
to sedate the boys and help swim them to safety
(00:53):
no stranger to risk assessment. Harry now hosts a podcast
exploring just that, and he joins us next on Double
A Chatter.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Harry, Hello, good morning, good morning.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Good morning.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
Anita's had some history of diving, but even to both
of us, and you agree and Nita, cave diving sounds horrific.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
It's well, what I'm what I'm kind of curious about, Harry,
is that I mean, I am aware of the wristler
inherent and just being a recreational diver, but you know
the exponential additional risk in being a cave diving. I mean,
what attracted you to that, to that activity that I
was going to say, Harby, But it's more than that,
(01:42):
isn't it.
Speaker 5 (01:44):
Can I go off on a bit of a tangent
already and just say that your response is exactly the
response one that made me interested in risk because and
the whole hypothesis or premise of my podcast was why
do people keep thinking what I do is crazy or
unhinged or too dangerous? Because I don't feel like I'm
a risk taker. I don't feel like I seek out danger,
(02:06):
and I certainly don't feel brave. So why is it
that I love doing this thing which obviously for many
people of strikes at the core of their primal fears.
And so that was why I sought out other risk
takers who did stuff that frightened me to find out
if actually they were crazy or are they actually just
liked me good risk managers? So back to your question, sorry,
(02:27):
I'll read trace. I started out as someone who loved
the ocean, loved diving from a very young age. In
my early teens, and it almost seemed like a natural
progression for me to seek out other diving experiences and
Adelaide were lucky to be just a few hours from
Mount Gambia, which is home to many of the Australia's
(02:48):
most beautiful caves and seek holes flooded with water, and
so as a diving instructor in our university dive club,
a group of us went down to see what it
was all about, and that was when I became a
bit obsessed.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
Vital You say that you're not by nature a risk taker,
but I'd like to know how you went about assessing
the risk in those panicky, terrifying days where you were
called on basically not on your own, I know, but
to save those boys in the cave, your idea, you
(03:20):
didn't want to anesetize the boys in the end, that's
the way you ended up doing it. How did you
cope with looking at all the different risks? How did
you assess it?
Speaker 5 (03:32):
Yeah? Step by step? I think you know, it was
overwhelming when I first got there, the amount of almost
chaos that appeared to be on site. You know, there
were thousands of people in or around that mountain. That's
pouring with rain, everyone's waiting around in Maud up to
their midshins and trying to just absorb it all and
make head or tail of it all. Was the first thing,
(03:54):
just to sort of cope with the sensory overload. So
the first thing I did was seek out the Britainish
divers who already knew and who were there, and you know,
you want to talk to your own tribe when you
get to somewhere like that, and ask their opinion, what's
going on, what's the cave like, what plans have been tried?
What plans have you got? And of course the sedation
(04:15):
plan was at the front of mine for Rick Stanton,
the guy who rang me and proposed that idea, and
I kind of went with, yeah, but what other plans
have you got? Because I was very intent not to
go down that path. And over the next twenty four
to thirty six hours, I guess one by one I
had a chance to look at all the stuff that
(04:36):
was in place and realized along with Rick, that he
was right. There was no way these boys were going
to come out alive. So I was just faced with
this question, do I give this thing a try? That
I felt would result in one hundred percent fatality for
the boys, but at least they would be back with
their parents. Or do I get on a plane and
go home and leave them to perish over a prolonged
(04:56):
period of time in at the back of a cave,
and you know, their skeletal remains removed maybe three to
six months later. And I think the thing that got
me over the line was the fact that if I
did do this, and presumably if they drowned or died
under the anesthetic, they're going to die anyway, So at
least they'll be asleep when that happens, and they'll be
(05:18):
returned to their parents looking like their sons still. And
I know it's a pretty poor basis for a plan,
but actually that just seemed like the right thing to do.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
How did you deal?
Speaker 4 (05:30):
Maybe you didn't have to think about this, or you
chose not to think about this, but.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
The whole world held their breath.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
How would the world have coped or how would you
have coped with this collective grief if the result hadn't
been good?
Speaker 5 (05:44):
Oh, very differently, I'm sure, and my wife is far
more perceptive than I am, recognized all those risks. You know,
what's the risk to me, my mental health, my career,
my future. How would I respond to, you know, the
deaths of these boys essentially at my hands. But I
(06:05):
think in that moment, you don't think through all the
possible outcomes. You know, maybe it passes through your mind,
but you just faced this task and you make a
decision this is the right thing to do. And I
find that I'm able to put that stuff out of
my mind and not think about it, which can get
you into trouble a bit. I tend to rush into
(06:26):
stuff of it sometimes, but I think if I had
to wlp on those issues, then maybe I couldn't have
had the courage to go ahead.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
So I've got to say that that ability to keep
your head when everyone around you is losing their minds
is such an attractive trait, And I'm wondering if you
feel that that is an iniche trait or a curated one.
You're saying that sometimes you jump into things, but my
(06:56):
sense is that there's probably some logic or or a
thought behind you jumping in.
Speaker 5 (07:03):
I think you have to come from a starting point
of enjoying a bit of excitement and hasard either in
your workplace, which I guess I've done for many decades
now worth in critical care medicine and having to be
involved in life or death decisions on behalf of your patients.
And sometimes that can be in a real hurry. Of course,
(07:24):
you suddenly you faced with someone who has minutes to live.
If you don't act and respond in the best possible way,
then you know you and sometimes actually you can be
the cause of their undoing. As an anthetist, you know,
you render someone unconscious, stop their breathing. And I don't
want to frighten people about what happens when you have
(07:45):
an anesthetic, but of course you have to have the
skills and wherewithal to take over and manage all those
systems on their behalf. So occasionally and very rarely obviously fortunately,
but occasionally that goes wrong and it doesn't go to plan,
and a problem, right is that is difficult to manage,
and that's when you need to keep you calm and
be able to push back panic, which is only a
(08:08):
minute away obviously for everyone.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
Man.
Speaker 5 (08:10):
I think that's the curated part is that with experience
you learn to hold panic at bay and do the
best you can for as long as you can, and
certainly underwater in a cave. That is a very essential
skill to curate because inevitably in cave diving is with
all diving, if you do enough of it, probably you
might have a situation where a problem arises, and if
(08:33):
you're panic, then you lose that ability to make decisions
or keep in control of the situation. As soon as
you panic. I'm sure that's when death is very close.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
You know.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
I think about I would imagine in your day to
day life, work life, but as well as when you
are going through these kinds of situations with your kieve diving,
that you do some kind of after action review, like,
you know, what can we learn from you know, the
things that went right, the things that might have gone wrong?
(09:09):
You know, I'm thinking about what kind of lesson can
you know could you take from that experience.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
Even though it was such a hard specific yes, because
it is so specific set of circumstances, What could can
you share that you've learned from that?
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Well?
Speaker 5 (09:30):
I think the thing I'm most proud of perhaps is
firstly that I found the courage to make a decision
when there was no right decision, and in retrospect, I
mean this is seven years ago, now, so I'm now
looking through the lens of a successful operation. So it's
actually very hard to remember exactly what was in your
mind at those those points in time. But I think
(09:53):
to be able to make a decision to move forward
is very important and I and I often say to
people like that, that's what I have respected in my
career in leaders that I've worked with people who fluster
and stall. It's hard to respect that because you know
that paralysis can literally be death or certainly death in
an organization or in a business. You know, if you
(10:15):
can't make a decision, then you're going nowhere. The other
thing I think I've learned, and my friend Craig Shallon,
you know, who's been a dive buddy and a companion
and some of these events for a very long time
or some of these circumstances, he always says the importance
of being an enthusiast and a generalist and learning as
(10:37):
many skills in life as possible, you know, to learn
something about the arts and the internal combustion engine, and
to change the tire on your car, to mow the lawn.
Just you know, when I speak to young people, I
encourage them to take up as many opportunities to learn
different skills in life as possible, because the more around
it you are, the more you know a little bit
(10:57):
about everything, the more likely you are to be a
useful And actually, when I was in charge of employing
people in some of my workplaces, they were often the
people I kind of looked for or found myself drawn towards,
because someone with experiences, for example, a doctor who'd worked
in Africa with medicines on frontier, or someone who had
(11:19):
worked in a war zone, or someone who'd worked in
difficult environments. Sometimes those people bring that practical kind of
know how that makes for success in any kind of environment.
So I feel like Craig and I came to Thailand
with that kind of background, being kind of I wouldn't
say polymaths, but you know, people who have a bit
(11:39):
of a go at pretty much anything.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
We've talked about risk under those extraordinary circumstances, but what
about the role of risk in our everyday lives?
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Are we more risk averse than we used to be?
Speaker 5 (12:01):
I feel like society is, for sure, and this is
another bit of a hobby horse for me, so watch out.
And of course I'm speaking from a position of very
little expert knowledge.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
But.
Speaker 5 (12:14):
Widely read and chatting to more and more people about
this topic because I'm fascinated or more concerned actually about
this adolescent mental health epidemic that we are definitely facing.
And initially I thought it's just because, well, we're all
much more comfortable about talking about stuff, so maybe we're
just hearing about a lot more. But it seems and Anita,
(12:35):
you can tell me. I think the evidence is that
this is a real phenomenon. And I think there are
so many societal reasons, not just smartphones and the internet
and screen time, but this sense of needing to protect
our young people from any adverse experience. You know, the
classic story of the school who won't let anyone win anything.
(12:56):
Everyone just gets a ribbon for participation. You have to
learn to lose. You have to learn to be a
failure and deal with it and cope with it. And
you know, I was very practiced at that at school
because I was so bad at sports, you know, the
last kid to be standing there when people were picking
the team for the lunchhower.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
As an Australian, that's a terrible thing to say, isn't
It is terrible?
Speaker 5 (13:17):
It is terrible and look at the way we admire
our sports people. They can do no wrong. Really, and
I'm not going to name names, but I'm a bit
off some of our elite sports people who are in
the mainstream media and have been forgiven countless times for
fairly major discretions. And I'm not talking about young footballers
who play up in a nightclub, because I think you
(13:38):
know that that early fame and idolization that we give
them actually pushes them into some of these poor decisions.
But I'm talking about some of the more seasoned, older
people who do things that really, for me, would it
would be like black and white. You're out and you
can't come back. It's like the anesthetis who use this
ventanyl you know, you get one chance in that privileged position,
(14:01):
and if you get it wrong and you abuse it,
no matter what circumstance led you to do that. For me,
that is a very privileged position to be looking after
people's lives in that moment. If you're impaired because you're
using the drugs that you're supposed to be given the patient,
you have to find another job. You have to do
a talking job, not an anesthetizing job, or something else.
(14:21):
You know, I feel a bit the same a way,
a bit about some of these other people in the
media a bit.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
But anyway, I think you're preaching engine again. I was
going to say, you're preaching a little bit to the
converted here and that you know, I look at some
of the data that talk about how, you know, young
young adults, you know, eighteen to twenty, you know, how
many haven't ever held a job, or don't know how
to drive, have never had a relationship, have never left home,
(14:49):
have never you have never experienced the kinds of opportunities,
the kinds of challenges that we can have to go
and make mistakes. And I think that that it's you know,
the analogy I use is that if you you know,
when your kid is learning how to walk, and if
you just keep catching them and they never actually learn
(15:10):
how to fall down and get back up again, and
then they're sixteen and they want the car, you know,
it's kind of a you know, we need to be
able to assess risk well. And I mean that's that's
been my job for the you know, for thirty years,
is to assess risk. And I think that when I
teach risk assessment, I think it's you know, I talk
a lot about how how poor we are at it,
(15:31):
that you know, there are times where we really overestimate
risk and sometimes we're really underestimated.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
What's the role of risk assessment in your life and
your job? Donate it?
Speaker 1 (15:40):
So so I do risk assessment often for offending behavior,
so either violent or sexual violent behavior, And so you know,
we're looking at trying to predict a very low base
rate because I mean, even though we feel that it
may happen all the time, it's something that doesn't happen
(16:00):
very often. So we are using actuarial and structured professional
decision making tools to go and support us to try
to make good predictions about what may occur in an individual.
So it's you know, when I do think about it
that often when I'm teaching new psychologists how to do
(16:23):
this work, they tend to overestimate. They think everything is dangerous,
they think everybody is dangerous, and then you know, and
then I contrapose that with my husband Emmitt, who taught
height at Safety for you know, about thirty years, and
there is people who was like, I've been climbing for
twenty years and I haven't fallen yet, and they didn't
want it to use any protection, and it was kind
(16:45):
of like really like that. That just seems like a
very big things, both extremes, and so we have a
great deal of difficulty I think in general of figuring
out and again I think it's just getting worse because
not exposing ourselves to challenges, to risks, to reason to.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
Risk in an evolutionary sense, Harry, are humans designed to
not take risks? I mean, we're designed to save ourselves.
Speaker 5 (17:15):
I believe we are very much designed to take risks.
We have to from the earliest time of our lives.
I'm sure it's genetically encoded from I mean not so
much now in this very safe society that we are
fortunate to live in. It's not the same all around
the world obviously, but you know, for ancient forms of humans,
they had to take risks to gather food, to find shelter,
(17:38):
to attract a mate. One of my podcast is with
this amazing chapter Bill von Hippel, who's a professor at UQ.
I think it a while since I spoke to him,
but here he is an evolutionary psychologist. He goes right
into the all the reasons why risk and risk management
is innate and ingrained in us. We have to be
(18:00):
able to assess risk to move forward. And when everything's
provided on a plate for us and there appears to
be no risk around us, we lapse into this state
of uneasiness, maybe anxiety even And you know, as as
someone who has suffered with that myself, I have found
(18:20):
pushing myself into situations where I have to step up
a bit to look after myself, whether it's mentally or physically,
I've found that very therapeutic. And even just you know,
this concept of being in the outdoors and outdoor therapy
is massively good for our mental health. Just get outside
and walk up a hill and you know, look at nature.
(18:41):
It's it's enormously beneficial.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Up short, Amanda and I were talking earlier about the
you know, earlier societies where you know, we'd be there'd
be people who wanted to sit around the count fire
and you know, stay in community, and then there was
the people who would get on a boat and just
take off into the unknown. And I, you know, I
(19:07):
think in some ways it takes both kinds, doesn't it
in some ways to build a society mm hmmm, Because
you need that sense of community, but you also need
those people who aren't risk takers and who are willing
to go out and you know, find the next food source,
or you know, when things get overcrowded, to go and
move to a new site.
Speaker 5 (19:28):
So this concept, this concept of exploration, I find really
interesting because I've definitely got that exploration bug. I can't
sit on a boat and without looking at the horizon
and wondering, you know, what's out there, or looking into
the water and thinking what's down there. And some people
clearly don't have that need to fulfill that that interest
(19:50):
or that desire, whereas it's like an hitch that I
need to scratch. And that's why cave diving for me
has been so fantastic because it's one of those last
places on the planet that you can actually go and
find something that is unseen or untouched or unexplored. You know,
until you literally walk or swim around the corner in
a cave passage, you don't know whether it goes for
(20:11):
one hundred kilometers or another two meters. So it's a
great way to satisfy that urge to explore. And unless
you've got the budget to go to space or to
the bottom of the deep oceans, not many places on the.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
Planet left to do that, I'd be the person sitting
around the fire making a cup of tea.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Which would be just as useful. Okay, well, I would.
Speaker 5 (20:31):
Love to see you when I came home from my
day of exploring.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Harry, here's a couple I'd say, Yeah, Oh, Harry, I'm
just I'm curious, what is your next challenge? What is
your next big adventure? When it comes to cave diving.
Speaker 5 (20:46):
Well, my cave diving activities have been a little bit
curtailed because I got decompression sickness last year exploring a
very deep cave in South Africa. So I got a
minor spinal injury, but enough to me with some minor
symptoms in my legs, which probably tells me that maybe
that's enough for that deep exploration. But I haven't stopped
(21:09):
cave diving, and I've swung my interest from the exploration
back to camera work and imaging, which has been basically
something I've done since I was fifteen or sixteen years
of age. And I've bought my first little camera and
put it in a box and took it underwater. So
I've retired from medicine and I'm trying to establish myself
(21:29):
as an underwater camera person, and I've been starting to
get some success in that realm doing some work, and
also just released the first feature documentary called Deeper Don't
mind if I give that a little plug please, which
is in the cinemas at the moment, and that's about
an ongoing series of expeditions in a very deep cave
(21:49):
in New Zealand. So you know, that's a big tick
in a box for me to finally get something on
the big screen. So yeah, I mean life is very exciting,
certainly of opportunities for me.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
Did you start practicing with your endoscopes?
Speaker 4 (22:05):
Practicing no meaning in a human body when you're working
as a nisceness you say, hang on a minute, this
looks like a cave.
Speaker 5 (22:14):
Well, I did do a lot of colony, and I
would often reflect on what's around the next.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
And I'd be waiting there with a cup of tea.
Who Harry, thank you so much for joining us. It's
been such an insight. We'll put all the details of
your podcast on our socials as well. It's it's so
great to talk to someone who is so measured and
yet the joy of risk and the importance of risk
(22:43):
it's a fabulous message and thank you, thank you well thanks.
Speaker 5 (22:46):
For having me. I think it is important message, especially
for young people.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Give it a crack speaking of a colony, Harry, thank you.
Oh I loved him. Wasn't he interesting?
Speaker 1 (23:08):
He really was such an interesting insight into like the
whole process.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
And considering what a hero he's just as he says
that I'm an ordinary guy who could just who could
steal my mind when I had to, and what I
managed to do incredible kept his head.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
Should we get to our glimmers.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Let's get to our glimmers? What is yours?
Speaker 4 (23:29):
I'm going to start with something that I saw called
bean soup. I thought this sounds nice. I'm going to
find a recipe. But this woman actually uses bean soup
as a philosophy when she encounters stupid criticism on the internet.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
A lot of the internet sucks now because of the
bean soup theory. And if you missed it, a while ago,
someone shared a recipe for bean soup and instead of
people assessing do I want bean soup or do I
not want being soup, they said, well what about me?
And the comment section was subsequently filled with comments saying, well,
I don't like beans, what can I substitute these for?
Or I can't eat beans? What about this? Or what
(24:05):
can I do instead of beans in this bean soup?
And this self centered commentary is a big problem because
no matter what you share, it's always well, what about me?
What about me? What about me? Instead of acknowledging that
everything on the internet isn't actually about you? And I
have this happen literally so often. I say, oh, this
is a really cool thing that I love about not
(24:26):
having kids, and then I get parents being like, well, actually, no,
bean soup, this isn't about you. And I've shared reels
in the past talking about how you have free will.
You can do whatever you want. You can just like
move somewhere else if you want. It's going to take
work and it's going to take effort, but you can
do that. You can just go big cookies if you want.
And then people always respond with, well, this is privilege,
(24:46):
and I have to go to a job and I
can't just do that bean soup. This is obviously not
about you. Then, and this weird idea that everything you
come across on the internet has to be specifically catered
to you and your life. Everything about you, rather than
taking a step back and being like, does this apply
to me? Is this something that's applicable to my life
(25:08):
moving on? If it's not, it's always just what about me?
To wish? I respond, bean soup.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
I think we should all adopt that bean soup. Mean,
shut the hell up. If this doesn't suit you, I'm
not talking to you.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
I just love it. I just love it. Can I
give my can I do my soup?
Speaker 3 (25:27):
I've got no tolerance for you.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Well, you know, myke glimmer is kind of related to that,
is that you and I went away for the weekend
to your place down south and we had such a
lovely time. We watched episodes of All's Fair, which we
both loved to hate.
Speaker 4 (25:44):
This is the Kim Kardashian Lawyer show, where they dressed
like crazy women and pinstrike suits with the tea bar
hanging out the back.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Oh, it was extraordinarily bad. Yeah, it was just so
fun to do that. But Amanda, we had our first
fight was that. So when we went out to the
jetty and I pointed out that there was this huge
pelican and I went, you know, they looked just like pterodactyls,
and you looked at me, and you just turned to
me and were no.
Speaker 4 (26:14):
I meant to say yes, but some deep devil inside
me made me say no. We laughed and laugh because
it sounded like I was being a petulant.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Child you did. It was so funny. I don't know
where that came from.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
I'm used to working with Jonesy, so maybe I'm used
to disagree with people all the time.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Could be, but I just thought our first fade in
twenty years over a pterodactyl over a pterodactyl, So it's
going to be bean soup or a pterodactyl for safe words.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Well that was brilliant.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
If there's anything we've done today, including how you feel
about pelicans and pterodactyls, I'll let us know.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
I'm what to say bean soup. So get in touch.
We love all your comments, and we'll see you next time.
See yeah
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Oh
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