June 11, 2025 • 28 mins
Have you ever seen a man organise a cake for someone’s birthday in the office? Anita’s come across research about “non-promotable work” – those tasks that won’t get you anywhere in your career but which, surprise surprise, always seem to fall into the women’s hands. How can we get better at setting boundaries?
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is for general information only and should not
be taken as psychological advice. Listeners should consult with their
healthcare professionals for specific medical advice. Well.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Hello, I'm Amanda Kella.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
I'm Anita McGregor, and welcome to Double A Chattery. You're welcome, welcome.
You know what we're going to talk about today, Amanda,
We're going to talk about women. Well, I'm up for it.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I'm up for it in a general sense.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Or we've got to name all the women in the world.
What's you think.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Let once upon a time there was you know what
I thought is I would love to go and start
with some feedback on the podcast that we did about
that amazing book that you brought in several episodes ago
about How to Be a Woman.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
How to Be a Woman.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
It was written in nineteen sixty I think, yes, and
it was painted a very different picture of the role
of women.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
And it was you know, some of the comments I
really loved. There was Aaron Whitcomb who talked about listening
to the podcast and reflecting that her own mom had
worked outside the home in the sixties and that later
on she found out that other of her mates had
kind of said, oh, no, this is this Your mom
(01:33):
was a role model to me. And I was thinking
about working in the sixties, about how much what the
pressures would have been, what the judgment, the judgment, the
lack of support, like they probably didn't have many daycares even,
you know, and thinking maybe for nurses. I don't know,
but it was really interesting to go to hear the
(01:57):
responses of people who had listen to this podcast and
kind of really connected with how much things have changed.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
And luckily, well have they In some parts they had
and other parts not. One from Susan here said that
when her mum went to get a Commonwealth Bank card,
hermum applied for the bank card, she filled out all
the forms, did all of that herself, and the bank said, well,
we'll be contacting your husband because he had to he
was given the card, and then he could give her
the card even though she was earning her own money.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
You know. And those things they just they're the things
that you remember that just kind of, you know, stab
at you a little bit.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
So that's one generation ago. And as we said, the sixties,
that's the cusp of women's liberation, and we think that
everything was changing, but it took so long.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
There was a little message from Jackie as well, saying
that when she was in Kindia in nineteen seventy, so
again not that long ago, the teacher was handing out
musical instruments and she wanted to play the drum, but
she was told no, no, only boys play drums.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Hollow Karen Carpenter.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
I know, like it's just it's it is amazed.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Because that was more of an aggressive, physical, probably kind
of musical instrument, and it wasn't, you know, it wasn't
small and pretty enough for.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
A woman's womb might have moved around if she had engaged.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
In a woming behavior.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
But all of this, Amanda just again made me think
about how, you know, how some things have really changed
and again how some things really haven't. And it started
I. I was listening to this manto for Pain. He's an
American playwright and he makes alternative endings for children's books,
(04:00):
and he was talking about this. Are you familiar with
a children's book called The Giving Tree?
Speaker 3 (04:06):
I've heard of it, but I don't remember much about it.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Well, it's it's basically about the relationship between a young
boy as he grows up and this giving tree that
at first the child just wants some shade, a place
to stay, and then he wants apples, and then he wants,
you know, a to build a boat. Can you give
(04:31):
me some of your you know, lumber so I can
build a boat. And then eventually this giving tree is
left as a stump, Amanda, And the story ends with
this boys and old man sitting on the stump, and
the tree is happy.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
Oh, because he's been used up. Yeah, and and and
so it's going to go the other way. No, it's
it's basically supposed to be a story about a mother's
love for a child that she just gives everything until
there's nothing left of her. And there's no really clear
message that the boy's ever happy with his boat and
(05:09):
his house and everything else.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
And what makes you think the tree is the mother?
How do you know that text?
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Well, I think that that this is well, I mean,
this is tofer pains, you know, thought about it and
other people's you know, interpretation of this giving tree story.
And I love that Taufer does the alternative ending, which
is the tree who said healthy boundaries And it made
(05:37):
me think about there's a Canadian author and he wrote
this book that I love, and it's called I Love
You Forever, and it's about this mother who has a
baby and she sings this lullaby. Well, I'm going to
sing it, but we can cut this out if we.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Really count it. I'm going to have to hear it
in the right.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
You're gonna have to hear it right here, right now.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
I'm ready.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
But so the mother goes and sings to her young baby,
I love you forever. I like you for always. As
long as I'm living, my baby, you'll be and it
goes on shock because you hit a note. I did
hit a note a note, And it goes on and
on about as this this child grows up and eventually
(06:25):
this woman, she's an older woman, she breaks into his
house so that she can rock him and rock him
and sing this song. And it is a grown man,
a grown man.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
And that it.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Ends where the man rocks his mother and sings his
song back to her, and it's this sweet song, but
but toafer pain right rightfully says he's renamed this this
my one of my favorite I love you forever as
I love you forever, and I'll call before I come over.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
But so great, like that little written thing where she's
still breastfeeding on his wedding day.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Something about it.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
It's a little, a little, and it really made me
think about this, this whole idea about how women's work
is often the sense of not having boundaries and people pleasing.
We often think about it. You know, I want to
(07:28):
be liked, I want to be you know, it really
is about us. It's really not about the people that
we are trying to impress.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
It's interesting, isn't it that you know, you look at
people think that nurses, why should they be paid well?
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Because they do it's a calling.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Because women are caring by nature and they should be
doing that stuff for free.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yeah, well what women wouldn't want to go and change
somebody as stranger's bed pounds? Really and it's the The
interesting part is that when we people please is that
there's a lot of evidence says that we don't actually
create emotional connection with others. That when we connect that
(08:06):
it does like when we do stuff for others, it
doesn't create a strong connection, it doesn't. It becomes this
one way often a one way relationship where we give,
they take.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
I'm a huge people pleaser and I hate being a
people pleaser, and I'm trying so hard not to be yeah,
and so you think you're doing it for all the
right reasons because people go, geeh, weren't they nice?
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Yes, In fact, you're not forming a connection at all.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
No, No, and in fact that there are a lot
of downsides to people pleasing into continuing continually saying yes.
And there was this interview with this woman named Vanessa Bonds,
who is a researcher out of Carnal, and she looks
at women and their ability to say no. And what
(08:50):
I loved about this because one of my favorite sentences
has been like, noh is a complete sentence, and she goes, no,
Actually she doesn't believe that, and I loved her logic
about this is that when we say no, we often
feel as though we have to give an explanation no
because I just I don't have time, or no I
can't you know, I can we're kidnapped. Yeah, absolutely, And
(09:12):
but yes is actually a complete sentence. Yes, I will
like I'll do that, and so you know what she
pays attention to is that idea about how women often
say yes in situations where they feel pressured to say yes,
often in work situations, and they feel like they that
(09:35):
it makes them feel light, which it often may, but
again it creates this one one way relationship. And what
I really liked is that this researcher was looking at
who says yes in a meeting to like, who's going
to take the minutes, who's going to go and get
(09:56):
our lunch, who's going to go and organize a Christmas dinner,
who's going to you know, the Christmas party? Who's going
to do this? And often in this group of.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
People who are all of equal standings, who.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Are all of equal standing, that there will be this
like kind of like sidelong glances or you know table
you know, eyes going down to the table because nobody
wants to put up their hand and and in most
cases it's women who eventually put up their hands. If
it's a group of men, they kind of you know,
grumble about it, and then probably somebody puts up their
(10:28):
hand and then leaves the room and tries to ask
some woman to do it. And when it's you know,
they put somebody in charge of the room that and
there's that who's going to do this, you know respect,
you know this this thankless task. Often the manager will
point at a woman and ask her to do.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
It and what's the eat. So this isn't secretarial stuff
that someone's in a particular role. This is where you're
all equal partners.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
They call this non promotable work, and they actually one
of the statistics that I thought I found really really
interesting is that women in general at a job do
two hundred hours more of non promotable work when they
are just as a general part of the work. So
(11:17):
I might do all these things that you know, I
put my hand up for. I think that people are
going to like me. I think it's going to people
are going to look, you know, well at what I'm doing.
But here is my male counterpart who is actually engaging
in the promotable work stuff. So they're the ones that
are doing projects that have their name at the top
(11:38):
of the you know, of the report. They're you know,
it's not like and supported by you know, Anita, you know,
it's it's all this stuff that they are actually doing.
They have two hundred extra hours a year on average
to go and do that stuff.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
How interesting because just thinking of the things like organizing
a birthday cake, taking a collection for someone who's leaving,
arranging at farewell lunch.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Have you ever seen a man do that in an
office ever.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
Ever, I never ever have where if a guy a
boss says I'm going to arrange a lunch, he'll point
to a female, one of our producers or something it
might be, and they'll do it. Yeah, we don't have
office assistance, we don't have that stuff. We're all of
equal standing, and yet a female will be called to
do it.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
And they talk about the the things that get in
the way of saying no. And you know, part of
this in general for all of us is this idea
that you know, I think we've talked about this before
that you know, you kind of think, oh, you know,
can you please come and give an hour's talk somewhere Amanda,
(12:59):
And you go, sure, it's an hour of my time.
But it's not ever an hour of your time, is it.
It's you know, all the stuff that you have to
do to go and get ready for it.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
It loves in my die for a few weeks.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Yeah, and then there's you have to figure out how
to get there. You have to probably have several conversations
with people who want to guide about what the message
is that they want.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
You know, I don't like public speaking, so it's not
a natural fit.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
I'd be anxious about it.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Yeah, So what they actually say is that if you're
saying yes to an hour, you're probably saying yes to
four hours. And actually, if you started putting that into
your little dots in your diary, you'd be saying that
you'd be probably saying no. The other piece is that
the pressure. Often it's easy to say yes and you
(13:48):
do it immediately, and it's harder to say no. So
the idea can be the immediacy of the issue can
lead you to say yes when you should be saying
no to situations so to me example. So so it
could be Amna again, I want you to do this
(14:11):
talk and you go, yeah, sure, and instead of saying,
can you give me a day to think about it?
Because it's rarely it's like, you know, can you give
a you know, can you give a limb right now?
It's it's like you have to Actually, it's it's never
that emergent. It's so it has to be if you
most times you can say I'm going to take twenty
(14:34):
four hours to think about this, and I think that
when you actually have that time to sit back, you
actually look at your diary, you actually look at the
things that you have in place that you have to do,
that you actually can actually think about a response that
is probably maybe even like a no or closer to
(14:55):
a no, or you know, I'll you know, can I
do it? But can I do it this way rather
than a yes to everything? And I've got to say, Amana,
I did this just last week where I was having
a meeting. It was a really amazing project and one
of the collaborators said could you do this? And I
(15:15):
went yes, And then I walked away from that conversation
going I don't have time to just say yes to this.
And I actually had to think about going back and
saying I need I need more time and I need
some help with this because I recognized I said yes
way too quickly.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
And is that because you're a people pleaser?
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Yes? Absolutely, And I'm just really excited about this project
and so I want to get it off the ground,
and so I was thinking if I got involved, then
it would be more likely to get off the ground.
But it's probably that's not true. And you know that
other people could actually be involved and it would probably
(16:01):
make it for a better project as well. So taking
time is really important and the other piece. Then I
think that gets in the way of saying no, Amanda.
That I often think about is that and I think
about this in my closet, which is weird that if
I'm going to add one more thing to my already
(16:21):
full closet, is there something that I can take out
of my closet At the same time, if I'm thinking
about purchasing something, so thinking about if I'm going to
say yes to something, is there something that I can
say no to or is there something that I can
take off of my plate? And you know, basically, often
(16:43):
especially as mothers, will say yes, yes, yes, yes again
as people pleasers, but if you actually had to think
about the things that you were giving up, it's often
like things like that you really value, like time with
your children. And if you actually had to go and
look at your children and say no, I've just said
yes to this helping the band at the school organize
(17:04):
for a trip, which means that I can't spend time
with you my children. You know, if you actually had
to have that, you know, say that to them, you'd
probably see no.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
When the kids were younger, I said yes to a
lot of charity stuff because I thought, you know, the
local hospital would ask me to do things. I think,
how can I say no? I've got two healthy children.
But Saturday after Saturday after Saturday, I was watching them
have night in front of the TV, eating pizza or everything.
I want to do that. Yeah, I want to be
at home tonight eating pizza. But I felt my civic
duty was such was I'm better now it's saying my
(17:37):
own mental health needs a night at home here.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
I'm much better at that. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
But I've been guilty of all that stuff, and now
by nature, I say no to everything unless I get
cost Otherwise. I might have spoken about this before, But
what the sales does when she says no to something,
she puts a dot in her diary. So when that
week comes up, she goes my healthy boundaries. I mean,
I don't have to do that and that this week.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
And you get to just be joyful in that moment.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
Yeah, because you might say yes to something when your
week looks empty into them, But of course by the
time you get there, you've got a thousand other things
as well.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
You know what. That one of the biggest things that
I was this message that I took away from this,
this whole research into this non promotable time. Is that
I think I'm probably most guilty of this, Samanda, is
that somebody asks you to do something and it kind
(18:32):
of strokes your ego a little bit and you go, oh, well,
you know, they think I'm amazing, they think I can go.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Into space that yes, Katie Perry, of course I will.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Of course I will. It's it is that that kind
of that ego boost.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
It's nothing wrong with that time.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
I don't think that there is. But the reality is,
and this was the thing that really struck me, is
that I can still say no and be and I
can still delight in the moment that they thought that
I was somebody who was able to do this thing.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yeah, so you can still win.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
I can still win. And really in those moments, I've
never really considered that part of the equation. That it
was just you know, and we see that always just
an honor to be you know, to be asked. But
I think that this is that statement and action which
I really really liked.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
I saw a couple of things.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
This week that are touching on this too, and it's
about unpaid work as an intern, and a couple of
people are arking up on that. I just saw this
during the week A woman I don't know who she's
just came up on my feed. Said a couple of
weeks ago, I shared a post about the major corporation
that offered me exposure as compensation for my time as
an artist working on one of their upcoming projects. I
(19:50):
refused their offer and stood up for what I believe
is my value as an artist. The post went viral,
lots of people saw it, lots of people ended up
following my art and she said, Then the unthinkable happened.
Someone who designs movie sets reached out to me asked
if I'd be comfortable licensing two of my artworks for
an upcoming movie. I accepted, and I've just licensed to
artworks to Netflix.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
And the same day I saw that, I saw this other.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
One, someone saying my forever mood. Unfortunately I can't take
on unpaid work to help you make money at this time.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Thanks for thinking of me.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
And then she said, I know this is a controversial viewpoint,
but she says there are so many huge, profitable companies
and brands, including plenty of female run brands, who expect
other women to work for free, which they say is
in the spirit of women, supporting women and empowering women,
and it's utter bullshit. If we all stood together against
huge corporations expecting this, then they'd sit up and take notice.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
And oh my god, and most organizations would crumble if
it didn't, you know, if there weren't people putting their
hands up to do a lot of these little unpaid bits.
And the question is should they be really unpaid things,
or should they act be part of a payment structure,
or should they be things that are considered within you
(21:07):
for promotion And because after.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
A while, when they say it's a good experience, you go, Okay,
I'm sixty three years old.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
I've got enough experience now.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
It's it's so true. And but I was thinking about it,
and I'm I think, over my life, I have been
guilty of this where I have asked when I there's
something that I need to ask to get done, it
is often easier for me to go to another woman
to ask her to help me, rather than asking a
(21:39):
guy to do it.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Interesting, So we're all guilty of it, yep.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
I think so. I think that I anticipate that there
is going to be difficulty in getting a yes. I'm
probably also guilty if I think about it that I
think that sometimes I anticipate that a man might not
do the job as well, maybe even like that, you
(22:07):
know what I mean? Like you know that that's saying
about if you want something done, ask a busy woman,
you know. And so I don't know is that you know,
how do I?
Speaker 2 (22:17):
How do I? By doing that?
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Afy doing that, we perpetuate situation as well. Yeah, you
may you finish here. I'm going to go up to
the male CEO. I'm ask him to go and wash
my CarH me, you don't see me next week?
Speaker 2 (22:33):
You know it hasn't gone so well.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
I want pictures after to show a great job his son?
Speaker 2 (22:39):
What him to do in a bikini.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
At least hot pants?
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Wow?
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (22:50):
You know.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
The other piece that really struck me.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Is that.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
The and I hadn't thought about this either, is that
it is so much easier to say no to a
close friend than it is to an acquaintance. Because our
close friends know us, they love us, it feels easier
to say no, and so we tend to go and
say yes to acquaintances when we are people pleasers that
we want to we want to feel like because we
(23:16):
don't know them. We want them to see us in
a positive light.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
I've got a friend who explained it in very blunt terms.
He said, he sees more of his dealist friends and
he does his alist friends because his ailist friends get it.
The dealer's friends are more persistent, and he thinks, I'll
just say yes and get out of the way, whereas
our good friends, you can kick that can down the
road for two years and they'll still be your best friend.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Isn't that Isn't that a frightening thought? Yeah, so, thinking
about this, it really was kind of sobering recognition, a
sobering reflection of how am I contributing to this? And
thinking about how do I? How do I shift this?
(24:00):
And especially because I work primarily with females and most
of my students are females, most of my colleagues are females.
How do I how do I address this?
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Do everything yourself, Anita, give it to a busy woman.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
That woman is you, that woman is me?
Speaker 2 (24:20):
And why don't you wash my car? Equal opportunity.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
You know what it's going to turn out like though,
I'm going to leave the windows open and yeah, I'm
going to start our glimmers today. I got Mike, Well,
(24:51):
I got my cup filled a little bit. A couple
of weekends ago, Emma and I went to U yoga
and and meditation.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Wekend that sounds hideous. Was there alcohol involved?
Speaker 1 (25:07):
There was no alcohol in my result, but you know
there was amazing glorious vegetarian food, which you know, I
could have done with a bit of protein, but it
was okay. And like the food was really beautiful and
you could really partake as much of it as you wanted.
If you wanted to do the early yoga class you could.
(25:29):
If you if you just wanted to sit around and
read a book, you could and go for a walk
you could. It was glorious. It was really absolutely what
I needed to go and fill my cup.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
I just yeah, I go to cup with turbal Tea.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
I did, and you know, it was so lovely because
it was it was cool to see that there were
some people there who go regularly to do these things,
and there was also some people that were kind of
first time people and it was so interesting to watch
them drink the kool aid, as it were, but to
(26:05):
actually embrace the idea of a different way of kind
of getting offline for a couple of days it was.
I really enjoyed it, really needed it.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
Well, that's going to make my glimmers sound a little
shallow either. But I have founded a new site and
I'll show it to you, Anita.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
It's called Hot Guys Reading and it keeps popping up
on my feed. The more I watch it, the more
it pops up on my feet. I'm happy to be
in that algorithm. And it's men who are photographed reading
on buses, reading at airports.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Or not reading it loud, Just hot guys with a
book in their hands, like an actual book, actual book?
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Could it be more attracted?
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Actual book?
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Like that reading actual See where my head went. I
was in Japan quite a few years ago, and I
was on one of those trains in around the city
of Tokyo, and there was a whole bunch of businessmen
and they were reading books. But they were reading those
maga but.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
Manga comics but a highly sexualized schoolgirl.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
And I was like, oh, that's creepy, so this but
this sounds good?
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Yes, And I don't see what they're reading, and I
don't need to know what they're reading. Just a handsome
man and an argol jumper or someone sitting in a
nicely tailored jacket. You know they're not wearing hoodies and stuff.
These are nice looking, polished men reading books. Who would
have thought that that's all it would take to inflame me.
I've moved, you know, I've had my fairy porn. I'm
(27:33):
still making my way through the dragon porn. But the
real world porn isn't bad.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
It's not bad at all. It is amazing how we
can get to the point of going a man with
a nicely tailored a man of reading a book does it?
Speaker 2 (27:48):
How sad are we? That's where we are. I'll share
it with you.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Please share, We see it
This podcast is for general information only and should not
be taken as psychological advice. Listeners should consult with their
healthcare professionals for specific medical advice. Well.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Hello, I'm Amanda Kella.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
I'm Anita McGregor, and welcome to Double A Chattery. You're welcome, welcome.
You know what we're going to talk about today, Amanda,
We're going to talk about women. Well, I'm up for it.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I'm up for it in a general sense.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Or we've got to name all the women in the world.
What's you think.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Let once upon a time there was you know what
I thought is I would love to go and start
with some feedback on the podcast that we did about
that amazing book that you brought in several episodes ago
about How to Be a Woman.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
How to Be a Woman.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
It was written in nineteen sixty I think, yes, and
it was painted a very different picture of the role
of women.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
And it was you know, some of the comments I
really loved. There was Aaron Whitcomb who talked about listening
to the podcast and reflecting that her own mom had
worked outside the home in the sixties and that later
on she found out that other of her mates had
kind of said, oh, no, this is this Your mom
(01:33):
was a role model to me. And I was thinking
about working in the sixties, about how much what the
pressures would have been, what the judgment, the judgment, the
lack of support, like they probably didn't have many daycares even,
you know, and thinking maybe for nurses. I don't know,
but it was really interesting to go to hear the
(01:57):
responses of people who had listen to this podcast and
kind of really connected with how much things have changed.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
And luckily, well have they In some parts they had
and other parts not. One from Susan here said that
when her mum went to get a Commonwealth Bank card,
hermum applied for the bank card, she filled out all
the forms, did all of that herself, and the bank said, well,
we'll be contacting your husband because he had to he
was given the card, and then he could give her
the card even though she was earning her own money.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
You know. And those things they just they're the things
that you remember that just kind of, you know, stab
at you a little bit.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
So that's one generation ago. And as we said, the sixties,
that's the cusp of women's liberation, and we think that
everything was changing, but it took so long.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
There was a little message from Jackie as well, saying
that when she was in Kindia in nineteen seventy, so
again not that long ago, the teacher was handing out
musical instruments and she wanted to play the drum, but
she was told no, no, only boys play drums.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Hollow Karen Carpenter.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
I know, like it's just it's it is amazed.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Because that was more of an aggressive, physical, probably kind
of musical instrument, and it wasn't, you know, it wasn't
small and pretty enough for.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
A woman's womb might have moved around if she had engaged.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
In a woming behavior.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
But all of this, Amanda just again made me think
about how, you know, how some things have really changed
and again how some things really haven't. And it started
I. I was listening to this manto for Pain. He's an
American playwright and he makes alternative endings for children's books,
(04:00):
and he was talking about this. Are you familiar with
a children's book called The Giving Tree?
Speaker 3 (04:06):
I've heard of it, but I don't remember much about it.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Well, it's it's basically about the relationship between a young
boy as he grows up and this giving tree that
at first the child just wants some shade, a place
to stay, and then he wants apples, and then he wants,
you know, a to build a boat. Can you give
(04:31):
me some of your you know, lumber so I can
build a boat. And then eventually this giving tree is
left as a stump, Amanda, And the story ends with
this boys and old man sitting on the stump, and
the tree is happy.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
Oh, because he's been used up. Yeah, and and and
so it's going to go the other way. No, it's
it's basically supposed to be a story about a mother's
love for a child that she just gives everything until
there's nothing left of her. And there's no really clear
message that the boy's ever happy with his boat and
(05:09):
his house and everything else.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
And what makes you think the tree is the mother?
How do you know that text?
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Well, I think that that this is well, I mean,
this is tofer pains, you know, thought about it and
other people's you know, interpretation of this giving tree story.
And I love that Taufer does the alternative ending, which
is the tree who said healthy boundaries And it made
(05:37):
me think about there's a Canadian author and he wrote
this book that I love, and it's called I Love
You Forever, and it's about this mother who has a
baby and she sings this lullaby. Well, I'm going to
sing it, but we can cut this out if we.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Really count it. I'm going to have to hear it
in the right.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
You're gonna have to hear it right here, right now.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
I'm ready.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
But so the mother goes and sings to her young baby,
I love you forever. I like you for always. As
long as I'm living, my baby, you'll be and it
goes on shock because you hit a note. I did
hit a note a note, And it goes on and
on about as this this child grows up and eventually
(06:25):
this woman, she's an older woman, she breaks into his
house so that she can rock him and rock him
and sing this song. And it is a grown man,
a grown man.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
And that it.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Ends where the man rocks his mother and sings his
song back to her, and it's this sweet song, but
but toafer pain right rightfully says he's renamed this this
my one of my favorite I love you forever as
I love you forever, and I'll call before I come over.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
But so great, like that little written thing where she's
still breastfeeding on his wedding day.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Something about it.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
It's a little, a little, and it really made me
think about this, this whole idea about how women's work
is often the sense of not having boundaries and people pleasing.
We often think about it. You know, I want to
(07:28):
be liked, I want to be you know, it really
is about us. It's really not about the people that
we are trying to impress.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
It's interesting, isn't it that you know, you look at
people think that nurses, why should they be paid well?
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Because they do it's a calling.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Because women are caring by nature and they should be
doing that stuff for free.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yeah, well what women wouldn't want to go and change
somebody as stranger's bed pounds? Really and it's the The
interesting part is that when we people please is that
there's a lot of evidence says that we don't actually
create emotional connection with others. That when we connect that
(08:06):
it does like when we do stuff for others, it
doesn't create a strong connection, it doesn't. It becomes this
one way often a one way relationship where we give,
they take.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
I'm a huge people pleaser and I hate being a
people pleaser, and I'm trying so hard not to be yeah,
and so you think you're doing it for all the
right reasons because people go, geeh, weren't they nice?
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Yes, In fact, you're not forming a connection at all.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
No, No, and in fact that there are a lot
of downsides to people pleasing into continuing continually saying yes.
And there was this interview with this woman named Vanessa Bonds,
who is a researcher out of Carnal, and she looks
at women and their ability to say no. And what
(08:50):
I loved about this because one of my favorite sentences
has been like, noh is a complete sentence, and she goes, no,
Actually she doesn't believe that, and I loved her logic
about this is that when we say no, we often
feel as though we have to give an explanation no
because I just I don't have time, or no I
can't you know, I can we're kidnapped. Yeah, absolutely, And
(09:12):
but yes is actually a complete sentence. Yes, I will
like I'll do that, and so you know what she
pays attention to is that idea about how women often
say yes in situations where they feel pressured to say yes,
often in work situations, and they feel like they that
(09:35):
it makes them feel light, which it often may, but
again it creates this one one way relationship. And what
I really liked is that this researcher was looking at
who says yes in a meeting to like, who's going
to take the minutes, who's going to go and get
(09:56):
our lunch, who's going to go and organize a Christmas dinner,
who's going to you know, the Christmas party? Who's going
to do this? And often in this group of.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
People who are all of equal standings, who.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Are all of equal standing, that there will be this
like kind of like sidelong glances or you know table
you know, eyes going down to the table because nobody
wants to put up their hand and and in most
cases it's women who eventually put up their hands. If
it's a group of men, they kind of you know,
grumble about it, and then probably somebody puts up their
(10:28):
hand and then leaves the room and tries to ask
some woman to do it. And when it's you know,
they put somebody in charge of the room that and
there's that who's going to do this, you know respect,
you know this this thankless task. Often the manager will
point at a woman and ask her to do.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
It and what's the eat. So this isn't secretarial stuff
that someone's in a particular role. This is where you're
all equal partners.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
They call this non promotable work, and they actually one
of the statistics that I thought I found really really
interesting is that women in general at a job do
two hundred hours more of non promotable work when they
are just as a general part of the work. So
(11:17):
I might do all these things that you know, I
put my hand up for. I think that people are
going to like me. I think it's going to people
are going to look, you know, well at what I'm doing.
But here is my male counterpart who is actually engaging
in the promotable work stuff. So they're the ones that
are doing projects that have their name at the top
(11:38):
of the you know, of the report. They're you know,
it's not like and supported by you know, Anita, you know,
it's it's all this stuff that they are actually doing.
They have two hundred extra hours a year on average
to go and do that stuff.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
How interesting because just thinking of the things like organizing
a birthday cake, taking a collection for someone who's leaving,
arranging at farewell lunch.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Have you ever seen a man do that in an
office ever.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
Ever, I never ever have where if a guy a
boss says I'm going to arrange a lunch, he'll point
to a female, one of our producers or something it
might be, and they'll do it. Yeah, we don't have
office assistance, we don't have that stuff. We're all of
equal standing, and yet a female will be called to
do it.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
And they talk about the the things that get in
the way of saying no. And you know, part of
this in general for all of us is this idea
that you know, I think we've talked about this before
that you know, you kind of think, oh, you know,
can you please come and give an hour's talk somewhere Amanda,
(12:59):
And you go, sure, it's an hour of my time.
But it's not ever an hour of your time, is it.
It's you know, all the stuff that you have to
do to go and get ready for it.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
It loves in my die for a few weeks.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Yeah, and then there's you have to figure out how
to get there. You have to probably have several conversations
with people who want to guide about what the message
is that they want.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
You know, I don't like public speaking, so it's not
a natural fit.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
I'd be anxious about it.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Yeah, So what they actually say is that if you're
saying yes to an hour, you're probably saying yes to
four hours. And actually, if you started putting that into
your little dots in your diary, you'd be saying that
you'd be probably saying no. The other piece is that
the pressure. Often it's easy to say yes and you
(13:48):
do it immediately, and it's harder to say no. So
the idea can be the immediacy of the issue can
lead you to say yes when you should be saying
no to situations so to me example. So so it
could be Amna again, I want you to do this
(14:11):
talk and you go, yeah, sure, and instead of saying,
can you give me a day to think about it?
Because it's rarely it's like, you know, can you give
a you know, can you give a limb right now?
It's it's like you have to Actually, it's it's never
that emergent. It's so it has to be if you
most times you can say I'm going to take twenty
(14:34):
four hours to think about this, and I think that
when you actually have that time to sit back, you
actually look at your diary, you actually look at the
things that you have in place that you have to do,
that you actually can actually think about a response that
is probably maybe even like a no or closer to
(14:55):
a no, or you know, I'll you know, can I
do it? But can I do it this way rather
than a yes to everything? And I've got to say, Amana,
I did this just last week where I was having
a meeting. It was a really amazing project and one
of the collaborators said could you do this? And I
(15:15):
went yes, And then I walked away from that conversation
going I don't have time to just say yes to this.
And I actually had to think about going back and
saying I need I need more time and I need
some help with this because I recognized I said yes
way too quickly.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
And is that because you're a people pleaser?
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Yes? Absolutely, And I'm just really excited about this project
and so I want to get it off the ground,
and so I was thinking if I got involved, then
it would be more likely to get off the ground.
But it's probably that's not true. And you know that
other people could actually be involved and it would probably
(16:01):
make it for a better project as well. So taking
time is really important and the other piece. Then I
think that gets in the way of saying no, Amanda.
That I often think about is that and I think
about this in my closet, which is weird that if
I'm going to add one more thing to my already
(16:21):
full closet, is there something that I can take out
of my closet At the same time, if I'm thinking
about purchasing something, so thinking about if I'm going to
say yes to something, is there something that I can
say no to or is there something that I can
take off of my plate? And you know, basically, often
(16:43):
especially as mothers, will say yes, yes, yes, yes again
as people pleasers, but if you actually had to think
about the things that you were giving up, it's often
like things like that you really value, like time with
your children. And if you actually had to go and
look at your children and say no, I've just said
yes to this helping the band at the school organize
(17:04):
for a trip, which means that I can't spend time
with you my children. You know, if you actually had
to have that, you know, say that to them, you'd
probably see no.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
When the kids were younger, I said yes to a
lot of charity stuff because I thought, you know, the
local hospital would ask me to do things. I think,
how can I say no? I've got two healthy children.
But Saturday after Saturday after Saturday, I was watching them
have night in front of the TV, eating pizza or everything.
I want to do that. Yeah, I want to be
at home tonight eating pizza. But I felt my civic
duty was such was I'm better now it's saying my
(17:37):
own mental health needs a night at home here.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
I'm much better at that. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
But I've been guilty of all that stuff, and now
by nature, I say no to everything unless I get
cost Otherwise. I might have spoken about this before, But
what the sales does when she says no to something,
she puts a dot in her diary. So when that
week comes up, she goes my healthy boundaries. I mean,
I don't have to do that and that this week.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
And you get to just be joyful in that moment.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
Yeah, because you might say yes to something when your
week looks empty into them, But of course by the
time you get there, you've got a thousand other things
as well.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
You know what. That one of the biggest things that
I was this message that I took away from this,
this whole research into this non promotable time. Is that
I think I'm probably most guilty of this, Samanda, is
that somebody asks you to do something and it kind
(18:32):
of strokes your ego a little bit and you go, oh, well,
you know, they think I'm amazing, they think I can go.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Into space that yes, Katie Perry, of course I will.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Of course I will. It's it is that that kind
of that ego boost.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
It's nothing wrong with that time.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
I don't think that there is. But the reality is,
and this was the thing that really struck me, is
that I can still say no and be and I
can still delight in the moment that they thought that
I was somebody who was able to do this thing.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yeah, so you can still win.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
I can still win. And really in those moments, I've
never really considered that part of the equation. That it
was just you know, and we see that always just
an honor to be you know, to be asked. But
I think that this is that statement and action which
I really really liked.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
I saw a couple of things.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
This week that are touching on this too, and it's
about unpaid work as an intern, and a couple of
people are arking up on that. I just saw this
during the week A woman I don't know who she's
just came up on my feed. Said a couple of
weeks ago, I shared a post about the major corporation
that offered me exposure as compensation for my time as
an artist working on one of their upcoming projects. I
(19:50):
refused their offer and stood up for what I believe
is my value as an artist. The post went viral,
lots of people saw it, lots of people ended up
following my art and she said, Then the unthinkable happened.
Someone who designs movie sets reached out to me asked
if I'd be comfortable licensing two of my artworks for
an upcoming movie. I accepted, and I've just licensed to
artworks to Netflix.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
And the same day I saw that, I saw this other.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
One, someone saying my forever mood. Unfortunately I can't take
on unpaid work to help you make money at this time.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Thanks for thinking of me.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
And then she said, I know this is a controversial viewpoint,
but she says there are so many huge, profitable companies
and brands, including plenty of female run brands, who expect
other women to work for free, which they say is
in the spirit of women, supporting women and empowering women,
and it's utter bullshit. If we all stood together against
huge corporations expecting this, then they'd sit up and take notice.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
And oh my god, and most organizations would crumble if
it didn't, you know, if there weren't people putting their
hands up to do a lot of these little unpaid bits.
And the question is should they be really unpaid things,
or should they act be part of a payment structure,
or should they be things that are considered within you
(21:07):
for promotion And because after.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
A while, when they say it's a good experience, you go, Okay,
I'm sixty three years old.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
I've got enough experience now.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
It's it's so true. And but I was thinking about it,
and I'm I think, over my life, I have been
guilty of this where I have asked when I there's
something that I need to ask to get done, it
is often easier for me to go to another woman
to ask her to help me, rather than asking a
(21:39):
guy to do it.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Interesting, So we're all guilty of it, yep.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
I think so. I think that I anticipate that there
is going to be difficulty in getting a yes. I'm
probably also guilty if I think about it that I
think that sometimes I anticipate that a man might not
do the job as well, maybe even like that, you
(22:07):
know what I mean? Like you know that that's saying
about if you want something done, ask a busy woman,
you know. And so I don't know is that you know,
how do I?
Speaker 2 (22:17):
How do I? By doing that?
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Afy doing that, we perpetuate situation as well. Yeah, you
may you finish here. I'm going to go up to
the male CEO. I'm ask him to go and wash
my CarH me, you don't see me next week?
Speaker 2 (22:33):
You know it hasn't gone so well.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
I want pictures after to show a great job his son?
Speaker 2 (22:39):
What him to do in a bikini.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
At least hot pants?
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Wow?
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (22:50):
You know.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
The other piece that really struck me.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Is that.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
The and I hadn't thought about this either, is that
it is so much easier to say no to a
close friend than it is to an acquaintance. Because our
close friends know us, they love us, it feels easier
to say no, and so we tend to go and
say yes to acquaintances when we are people pleasers that
we want to we want to feel like because we
(23:16):
don't know them. We want them to see us in
a positive light.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
I've got a friend who explained it in very blunt terms.
He said, he sees more of his dealist friends and
he does his alist friends because his ailist friends get it.
The dealer's friends are more persistent, and he thinks, I'll
just say yes and get out of the way, whereas
our good friends, you can kick that can down the
road for two years and they'll still be your best friend.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Isn't that Isn't that a frightening thought? Yeah, so, thinking
about this, it really was kind of sobering recognition, a
sobering reflection of how am I contributing to this? And
thinking about how do I? How do I shift this?
(24:00):
And especially because I work primarily with females and most
of my students are females, most of my colleagues are females.
How do I how do I address this?
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Do everything yourself, Anita, give it to a busy woman.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
That woman is you, that woman is me?
Speaker 2 (24:20):
And why don't you wash my car? Equal opportunity.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
You know what it's going to turn out like though,
I'm going to leave the windows open and yeah, I'm
going to start our glimmers today. I got Mike, Well,
(24:51):
I got my cup filled a little bit. A couple
of weekends ago, Emma and I went to U yoga
and and meditation.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Wekend that sounds hideous. Was there alcohol involved?
Speaker 1 (25:07):
There was no alcohol in my result, but you know
there was amazing glorious vegetarian food, which you know, I
could have done with a bit of protein, but it
was okay. And like the food was really beautiful and
you could really partake as much of it as you wanted.
If you wanted to do the early yoga class you could.
(25:29):
If you if you just wanted to sit around and
read a book, you could and go for a walk
you could. It was glorious. It was really absolutely what
I needed to go and fill my cup.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
I just yeah, I go to cup with turbal Tea.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
I did, and you know, it was so lovely because
it was it was cool to see that there were
some people there who go regularly to do these things,
and there was also some people that were kind of
first time people and it was so interesting to watch
them drink the kool aid, as it were, but to
(26:05):
actually embrace the idea of a different way of kind
of getting offline for a couple of days it was.
I really enjoyed it, really needed it.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
Well, that's going to make my glimmers sound a little
shallow either. But I have founded a new site and
I'll show it to you, Anita.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
It's called Hot Guys Reading and it keeps popping up
on my feed. The more I watch it, the more
it pops up on my feet. I'm happy to be
in that algorithm. And it's men who are photographed reading
on buses, reading at airports.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Or not reading it loud, Just hot guys with a
book in their hands, like an actual book, actual book?
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Could it be more attracted?
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Actual book?
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Like that reading actual See where my head went. I
was in Japan quite a few years ago, and I
was on one of those trains in around the city
of Tokyo, and there was a whole bunch of businessmen
and they were reading books. But they were reading those
maga but.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
Manga comics but a highly sexualized schoolgirl.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
And I was like, oh, that's creepy, so this but
this sounds good?
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Yes, And I don't see what they're reading, and I
don't need to know what they're reading. Just a handsome
man and an argol jumper or someone sitting in a
nicely tailored jacket. You know they're not wearing hoodies and stuff.
These are nice looking, polished men reading books. Who would
have thought that that's all it would take to inflame me.
I've moved, you know, I've had my fairy porn. I'm
(27:33):
still making my way through the dragon porn. But the
real world porn isn't bad.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
It's not bad at all. It is amazing how we
can get to the point of going a man with
a nicely tailored a man of reading a book does it?
Speaker 2 (27:48):
How sad are we? That's where we are. I'll share
it with you.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Please share, We see it
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.