July 28, 2024 • 17 mins
Should we be making our children apologise when they do the wrong thing? What does a sincere apology look like?
In this episode:
- Parental Guidance (S1): “Forcing children to apologise is teaching children to lie”
- Victim mentality
- People pleasing
- Ruptured relationships
- The Parenting Revolution, by Dr Justin Coulson
- Motivation Continuum - extrinsic, introjected, identified, integrated, intrinsic
- Is It Wrong to Tell Kids to Apologize? | The Atlantic
- Theory of Mind
- Why do children apologise under coercion?
- Feeling seen, heard, and valued
- Repairing relationships
- Why don't kids want to apologise?
- 4 components of a sincere apology
Related links:
- Should we Force our Children to Say 'Sorry'
- Carrots & Sticks: How Rewards and Punishments Hurt Our Kids, and What to do Instead [Webinar]
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
It's their Happy Families podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just
once answers Now.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
In season one of Parental Guidance, I created a bit
of a national controversy. There were national news articles written
in some of the online publications about one line in
particular that I shared.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hudson, did you throw your throng at him?
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Can you look at him and apologize? Sure? As all right?
It doesn't make it better if both of you do
it to each other. All right, all right, let's go.
Come on.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
I want to say something kind of provocative. Forcing children
to apologize is teaching children to lie. Controversy today, we're
talking about whether or not we should be making our
kids apologize when they do the wrong thing to ask
to their peers, to their siblings, or maybe they just
break something in the house they're really emotional about it.
(00:57):
Should we be making our kids apologize?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
You asked this question. I go straight back to a
story that you've told multiple times that just so clearly
depicts this in action.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
This is the one where I fought with my sister
in the kitchen. Yes, yes, all right, Shall I tell it?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Tell it?
Speaker 1 (01:17):
I'm about fifteen years old, I've got a lot of
bad attitude. My sister is four years younger than me.
She's there for about eleven. In our home, we didn't
watch Neighbors or Home and Away or The Simpsons because
of all the bad attitude and the characters and the relationships.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I really didn't need any any extra.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
I don't think it made any difference whether we watched
it or not. I had a bad relationship with my sister, okay,
and so we also didn't use words like stupid in
our house. That was the s word. And I got
really cranky with my sister in the kitchen one day
and I called her not just stupid, I called her
a stupid idiot, double whammy. So Mum heard it. She
(01:52):
was in the living room. She came into the kitchen said, justin,
we don't speak like that in this home. You need
to apologize to your sister. She literally forced an apology
out of her fifteen year old son, who had a
bad attitude. And so in apologizing to my sister for
calling her a stupid idiot, I literally said, fine, Karina,
I'm sorry, you're a stupid idiot.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
It's really bad. I'm laughing, but it's just this is.
This is why I love this story when I think
about the times where I have been forced to make
an apology, whether it be by a real life enforcer
or my own internal enforcer. Yeah. Yeah. When I feel
like this is I'm supposed to do this, it leaves
(02:37):
me in a victim mentality because I've been done wrong
by This is not It's got nothing to do with me.
This is all about the other person. So all my
focus and energy is on what a stupid idiot in
your words, the other person is for hurting me or
doing wrong by me. Right, I don't learn anything through
(02:58):
the process because I'm not doing any internal thinking. I'm
not looking at how I might have contributed to this situation.
It is all about the other person. But on top
of that, if I'm being enforced by somebody else, not
only does it rupture my relationship with the person I'm
saying sorry too, because I don't believe that I'm sorry.
(03:19):
I'm not sorry, that's my fault, trouble, That's exactly right.
It ruptures my relationship with the person, and in this
case an adult in a child, it ruptures my relationship
with them. And on top of that that whole process
if I'm not a fifteen year old teenage boy with
heaps of attitude, and I'm more of a timid person.
(03:41):
What I learned through the process is that in order
to make life pleasant for everybody else, I need to
please other people.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
I like the words that you use, the external enforcer
or the internal enforcer. I wasn't going to talk about
this to you use these phrases, but I want to
go back to something that I wrote in the most
important paarenting book that I believe exists on the planet.
It's called The Parenting Revolution. I wrote it a couple
of years ago, and I just wish every parent could
read it. In that book, I talk about a motivation continuum,
(04:15):
and at the very shallow end of motivation. No one
wants to swim in shallow motivational waters, right You want
to be in a deep water where you have fun.
But a very shallow end is this thing called extrinsic motivation.
Extrinsic motivation is when you do something because somebody else
is making you do it, either because you're going to
get a reward or a punishment. So a forced apology
in that instance is literally an extrinsic enforcer. But you
(04:37):
also use the term internal enforcer. The next level of
motivation on this motivation continuum is called introjected motivation. Now,
I know I'm getting a bit sciency, but that's precisely
what's going on here. No one's making you apologize. You're
doing it because you feel like you have to. There's
an internal police officer who's sort of berating you. It's
(04:59):
your conscience. You've got to do it. You've got to
do it. But you're not there yet, morally or mentally
or psychologically. You're just not there. And so the apology
gets spat across the room. The apology does not come
across the sincere and neither you nor the person receiving
the apology feel like hugging at the end of this
and saying, oh, yeah, everything's all better now, So glad,
(05:21):
so glad I got the apology.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
And while I sit in that space, though, what actually
happens is I feel more and more justified to be
angry and hurt.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Right right, And then of course, and they get the apology,
they get the apology that's been spat across the room,
and they think, hmm, I was right to do that
to them in the first place, because they're really that
sort of a person.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
That's exactly right. And so what happens is, instead of
me actually feeling soft and kind towards that person, my
anger and my resentment builds.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Okay, now I want to add some nuance here. I
think that we both sit on the same side of
the fence on this one. Forced apologies are generally ineffective. However,
I want to lean on some research and a little
bit of so I guess an alternative view. There's this
thing called theory of mind. I've talked about it a
lot on the podcast. It develops in children somewhere around
(06:08):
four or five or six. In fact, recent research suggests
that it might be later, it might be around seven
or even eight. And there is some research that shows
that when an under seven child receives an apology, regardless
of how they receive it, they're actually pretty good with it.
They're like, okay, good they apologize. Now, if the apology
(06:29):
is really explicitly forced, if it's a really unkind apology,
like you're one, yeah, then even under sevens don't tend
to take to them very well. But as a general rule,
if you haven't got theory of mind, that is, if
you're a parent of very young children and they do
the wrong thing, you could probably say you need to apologize,
and they will spit an apology out at their sibling
(06:51):
and everything will actually be okay. So I just want
to acknowledge that because the research there kids under seven
really do just want to hear sol. Whether it's a
prompted apology or whether it's a spontaneous apology, it is
usually going to help the relationship. As they develop more
cognitive capacity, from about the age of six or seven onwards,
(07:12):
those prompted apologies become less and less meaningful, particularly when
it's quite clear, quite obvious that this is not an
intrinsically motivated apology, that is, it's an introjected or an
externally prompted apology.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
So then my question is, before the age of six,
should we be encouraging our kids to apologize.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
So I'm going to just say no. I mean, I
think it's a pretty low stakes conversation. Honestly, when you're
talking about the younger kids, I really think it's low stakes.
If you want to, fine, do it, fine, fine if
you have to, but you're not setting yourself up for
success later because then you kind of get in this habit,
this pattern where you think this is the way it
should be. And as the kids do get older and
(07:52):
develop more cognitive capacity and complexity, the apologies become a
little bit more tricky and you don't know where to go.
So I just think with these things start early and
it gets easier.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
As you're talking. I'm just thinking this through. Right, You've
got children, they're young, they don't harbor resentment the same
way we do, so asking there or encouraging them to apologize,
Like you said, it's low stakes, there's not the huge
amount in it. But as they get to that point
where you can start to see there's a sticking point,
isn't that the perfect time to then start to have
(08:26):
conversations around you know, in the past mummies asked you
to apologize. I can tell you're actually still really really
angry about this. What should we do?
Speaker 1 (08:35):
This is when we move further into deeper motivational waters.
Along that motivational continuum that I write about in the
Parenting Revolution, we're moving into identified or integrated motivation. So
identified motivation is where you say, yeah, I can see
the value in it. Integrated is where you say, this
is pretty much who I am as a person. I'm
a person who wants to repair and make amends. See
(08:58):
this argument that we should be forcing our kids to apologize,
it's really a Number one, I'd say it's useless because
it promotes empty apologies. Number two, I'd say it's unnecessary
because there are better ways. But ultimately, why is the
child apologizing when it's under duress, where it's coerced apology.
They're apologizing because they want to escape punishment. That's really it.
(09:22):
It's an extrinsically motivated.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Apology, and goes back to my conversation around this desire
and need to people please.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Yeah, yeah, but you know what, they're not developing. They're
not actually developing the empathy that we want them to develop,
mainly because of a lack of cognitive capacity, but also
because it's now being forced. They don't actually feel sorry.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
But on top of that, I'm sorry, I'm cutting in.
But on top of that, they don't feel seen, hurd
or valued either. Because if you're enforcing me to say sorry,
you don't see the hurt, you don't see what's happened
to me, you don't understand what I'm going through. All
you see is that I've done something and it's hurt
that person, but you didn't see what happened that led
(10:04):
me to that, and therefore I feel invisible.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
You said it before. It makes a victim of the
person who is the perpetrator. Yeah, big problem there. Ultimately,
when we do that, it stops them recognizing how their
actions are affecting others because now our actions are affecting them,
and it stops them from repairing. You see, effective repair,
(10:28):
true repair. Making amends is an active process, and it
works best when we're in that deeper end of the
motivation continuum. I think it's worth unpacking briefly why kids
don't want to apologize. What's your take on that?
Speaker 2 (10:44):
If I'm apologizing for something, then I have to admit
that I'm wrong, And if I admit that I'm wrong,
then in my mind, I'm not a good person.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Right right, What I'm hearing you say is an apology
comes down to, in some ways, a level of personal pride.
For me to apologize means I have to acknowledge that
in that moment, I was not at my best, I
was not who I should be.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah, and as a seven year old, I'm not thinking
that right Right? What I'm thinking is I'm trying so
hard to be a good person and now I'm getting
in trouble for it, and that clearly means I'm not
a good person.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
I have three other reasons on top of your very
very clear and important reason. Number One, I'm still frustrated
at the other person. I'm just not ready to apologize
to them. They offended me, they upset me, or whatever
it is, I'm still upset about the thing. Number Two,
I might be embarrassed. Let's say I broke a window,
or I said the wrong thing to somebody it got
(11:38):
blurted out, or somebody took a screenshot of something that
they weren't supposed to take, like, I'm embarrassed about that.
And number three, I'm scared what happens if I apologize.
There's some research that shows that adults really really worry
about apologizing as well, because number one, they're worried about
their ramifications, and number two, they find it stressful because
they feel like it's going to be humiliating. So that
(12:00):
research shows that when they apologize, it's not nearly as
stressful or humiliating as they thought it would be, and
they get the relief of the apology, but of course
the apology has to be meant.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
And if you round all of that out for me,
it comes back to this, we don't like to be uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
All of this is about being uncomfortable and getting used
to the feeling of being uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Which is kind of an argument for why you could
get your kids to apologize, right, because that discomfort it
helps them to tolerate the discomfort and also to feel
the relief. But I mean, being forgiven feels good assuming
you do get forgiveness. Sometimes the apology doesn't land quite
the way we want it to. The argument for apologizing
is forgiveness is nice. Kids can learn that frustration tolerance
(12:45):
and that discomfort tolerance, and they also do learn to
take responsibility. Although well, that's kind of an old school
argument I would argue against it. I don't think they
learn responsibility. I think they learn to be frightened of us.
But we do need to wrap this up. What are
we supposed to do when the kids do the wrong thing?
Must they apologize? Do we not do anything at all?
Do we give it space? How do we figure this out?
Speaker 2 (13:07):
I think what's really important is that as we allow
our children the autonomy to work through these challenges. We
help them to recognize that sometimes time is needed, and
that in that space of time, the person who's been
hurt is able to let go of their anger and
their hurt, and the person who's done the hurt is
(13:29):
able to recognize the part that they're played in that hurt.
And when we enforce it, we actually cut the learning
process off. We don't give either person time to actually
work through that in a positive way. But it requires
a fair bit of scaffolding, especially in those early years.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
We've got to be there to support them. Right, So
two things from me. Number one, we've got to model it.
We've got to actually show our kids how to sincerely
apologize when we get it wrong, either with one another
or with the kids themselves. A sincere apology has four components.
Number one, I'm sorry. Number two, because that's where we
(14:12):
say because I did this to you, So.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
It's not because you did this which made me do this.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
No. In fact, one of my sisters got really cranky
at one of our kids one time, and then she
realized she'd done the wrong thing and she apologized and
she said, I'm sorry, I got mad at you. But
if you hadn't done that, it wouldn't have happened. And
I'm like, no, that's not one an apology. No one
was forcing it. At least she said sorry, but it
was an ugly apology. So number one, I'm sorry, Number
two because I did this number three and it made
(14:39):
you feel that. In other words, I have reflected and
can see how my actions affected you. And then the
fourth and most important thing, will you forgive me? Oh gosh,
they're important words. That's how you know someone's really sincere
when they are so willing to be humbled that they
ask you to forgive them. They put the power of
the relationship in your hand. That is a profoundly good apology.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Over the years, we have used this structure and process
with our kids as we've made mistakes as parents, and
there's just something so beautiful when our kids recognize the
part they've played in a difficult situation and they come
and ask those words, will you forgive me? I just
I love that they're able to, through their own cognition
(15:28):
and introspection, recognize that they've done something that has ruptured
a relationship, and they're desirous to reconnect and make that right.
But it takes them seeing us be humble. This is
what it comes down to, the words humble, right, It's
letting go of our pride, it's letting go of the
(15:49):
acknowledgment that we're going to get it right all the time,
getting down to their level and saying I'm really sorry,
I got it wrong today and I know what made
you feel sad.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Will you forgive it?
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Will forgive me?
Speaker 1 (16:00):
We could do with those four words a lot more
in the world right now. So that's number one. Where
there's been a rupture, there has to be repair, and
when we model it, especially with that framework, it makes
a big difference. The second thing, and you've emphasized this,
but I really want to put a great, big red
mark under this so that everyone remembers that giving kids
the opportunity to reflect on their actions with our gentle
(16:21):
support and involvement leads to much better apologies because our
children do want good relationships with those around.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Them and much better learning.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Yeah, sorry if we went over time, but we hope
we've been helpful here. Should you force your kids to apologize?
The research is ambiguous. I say no, but they do
need to learn to apologize. The happy families podcast is
produced by Justin Ruhan from Bridge Media. We really hope
this has been a helpful conversation for you in your home.
(16:53):
If you would like more information about making your family happier,
please check out Happy Families dot com dot you, where
we have our brand new membership, including content for parents
to work with their kids. It's called Felt Fostering Emotional
Learning Together. It's amazing content, it's interactive, it's engaging, the
kids love it, and it's all available now as part
of our Happy Families membership at happyfamilies dot com dot
(17:15):
a
It's their Happy Families podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just
once answers Now.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
In season one of Parental Guidance, I created a bit
of a national controversy. There were national news articles written
in some of the online publications about one line in
particular that I shared.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hudson, did you throw your throng at him?
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Can you look at him and apologize? Sure? As all right?
It doesn't make it better if both of you do
it to each other. All right, all right, let's go.
Come on.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
I want to say something kind of provocative. Forcing children
to apologize is teaching children to lie. Controversy today, we're
talking about whether or not we should be making our
kids apologize when they do the wrong thing to ask
to their peers, to their siblings, or maybe they just
break something in the house they're really emotional about it.
(00:57):
Should we be making our kids apologize?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
You asked this question. I go straight back to a
story that you've told multiple times that just so clearly
depicts this in action.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
This is the one where I fought with my sister
in the kitchen. Yes, yes, all right, Shall I tell it?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Tell it?
Speaker 1 (01:17):
I'm about fifteen years old, I've got a lot of
bad attitude. My sister is four years younger than me.
She's there for about eleven. In our home, we didn't
watch Neighbors or Home and Away or The Simpsons because
of all the bad attitude and the characters and the relationships.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I really didn't need any any extra.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
I don't think it made any difference whether we watched
it or not. I had a bad relationship with my sister, okay,
and so we also didn't use words like stupid in
our house. That was the s word. And I got
really cranky with my sister in the kitchen one day
and I called her not just stupid, I called her
a stupid idiot, double whammy. So Mum heard it. She
(01:52):
was in the living room. She came into the kitchen said, justin,
we don't speak like that in this home. You need
to apologize to your sister. She literally forced an apology
out of her fifteen year old son, who had a
bad attitude. And so in apologizing to my sister for
calling her a stupid idiot, I literally said, fine, Karina,
I'm sorry, you're a stupid idiot.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
It's really bad. I'm laughing, but it's just this is.
This is why I love this story when I think
about the times where I have been forced to make
an apology, whether it be by a real life enforcer
or my own internal enforcer. Yeah. Yeah. When I feel
like this is I'm supposed to do this, it leaves
(02:37):
me in a victim mentality because I've been done wrong
by This is not It's got nothing to do with me.
This is all about the other person. So all my
focus and energy is on what a stupid idiot in
your words, the other person is for hurting me or
doing wrong by me. Right, I don't learn anything through
(02:58):
the process because I'm not doing any internal thinking. I'm
not looking at how I might have contributed to this situation.
It is all about the other person. But on top
of that, if I'm being enforced by somebody else, not
only does it rupture my relationship with the person I'm
saying sorry too, because I don't believe that I'm sorry.
(03:19):
I'm not sorry, that's my fault, trouble, That's exactly right.
It ruptures my relationship with the person, and in this
case an adult in a child, it ruptures my relationship
with them. And on top of that that whole process
if I'm not a fifteen year old teenage boy with
heaps of attitude, and I'm more of a timid person.
(03:41):
What I learned through the process is that in order
to make life pleasant for everybody else, I need to
please other people.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
I like the words that you use, the external enforcer
or the internal enforcer. I wasn't going to talk about
this to you use these phrases, but I want to
go back to something that I wrote in the most
important paarenting book that I believe exists on the planet.
It's called The Parenting Revolution. I wrote it a couple
of years ago, and I just wish every parent could
read it. In that book, I talk about a motivation continuum,
(04:15):
and at the very shallow end of motivation. No one
wants to swim in shallow motivational waters, right You want
to be in a deep water where you have fun.
But a very shallow end is this thing called extrinsic motivation.
Extrinsic motivation is when you do something because somebody else
is making you do it, either because you're going to
get a reward or a punishment. So a forced apology
in that instance is literally an extrinsic enforcer. But you
(04:37):
also use the term internal enforcer. The next level of
motivation on this motivation continuum is called introjected motivation. Now,
I know I'm getting a bit sciency, but that's precisely
what's going on here. No one's making you apologize. You're
doing it because you feel like you have to. There's
an internal police officer who's sort of berating you. It's
(04:59):
your conscience. You've got to do it. You've got to
do it. But you're not there yet, morally or mentally
or psychologically. You're just not there. And so the apology
gets spat across the room. The apology does not come
across the sincere and neither you nor the person receiving
the apology feel like hugging at the end of this
and saying, oh, yeah, everything's all better now, So glad,
(05:21):
so glad I got the apology.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
And while I sit in that space, though, what actually
happens is I feel more and more justified to be
angry and hurt.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Right right, And then of course, and they get the apology,
they get the apology that's been spat across the room,
and they think, hmm, I was right to do that
to them in the first place, because they're really that
sort of a person.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
That's exactly right. And so what happens is, instead of
me actually feeling soft and kind towards that person, my
anger and my resentment builds.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Okay, now I want to add some nuance here. I
think that we both sit on the same side of
the fence on this one. Forced apologies are generally ineffective. However,
I want to lean on some research and a little
bit of so I guess an alternative view. There's this
thing called theory of mind. I've talked about it a
lot on the podcast. It develops in children somewhere around
(06:08):
four or five or six. In fact, recent research suggests
that it might be later, it might be around seven
or even eight. And there is some research that shows
that when an under seven child receives an apology, regardless
of how they receive it, they're actually pretty good with it.
They're like, okay, good they apologize. Now, if the apology
(06:29):
is really explicitly forced, if it's a really unkind apology,
like you're one, yeah, then even under sevens don't tend
to take to them very well. But as a general rule,
if you haven't got theory of mind, that is, if
you're a parent of very young children and they do
the wrong thing, you could probably say you need to apologize,
and they will spit an apology out at their sibling
(06:51):
and everything will actually be okay. So I just want
to acknowledge that because the research there kids under seven
really do just want to hear sol. Whether it's a
prompted apology or whether it's a spontaneous apology, it is
usually going to help the relationship. As they develop more
cognitive capacity, from about the age of six or seven onwards,
(07:12):
those prompted apologies become less and less meaningful, particularly when
it's quite clear, quite obvious that this is not an
intrinsically motivated apology, that is, it's an introjected or an
externally prompted apology.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
So then my question is, before the age of six,
should we be encouraging our kids to apologize.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
So I'm going to just say no. I mean, I
think it's a pretty low stakes conversation. Honestly, when you're
talking about the younger kids, I really think it's low stakes.
If you want to, fine, do it, fine, fine if
you have to, but you're not setting yourself up for
success later because then you kind of get in this habit,
this pattern where you think this is the way it
should be. And as the kids do get older and
(07:52):
develop more cognitive capacity and complexity, the apologies become a
little bit more tricky and you don't know where to go.
So I just think with these things start early and
it gets easier.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
As you're talking. I'm just thinking this through. Right, You've
got children, they're young, they don't harbor resentment the same
way we do, so asking there or encouraging them to apologize,
Like you said, it's low stakes, there's not the huge
amount in it. But as they get to that point
where you can start to see there's a sticking point,
isn't that the perfect time to then start to have
(08:26):
conversations around you know, in the past mummies asked you
to apologize. I can tell you're actually still really really
angry about this. What should we do?
Speaker 1 (08:35):
This is when we move further into deeper motivational waters.
Along that motivational continuum that I write about in the
Parenting Revolution, we're moving into identified or integrated motivation. So
identified motivation is where you say, yeah, I can see
the value in it. Integrated is where you say, this
is pretty much who I am as a person. I'm
a person who wants to repair and make amends. See
(08:58):
this argument that we should be forcing our kids to apologize,
it's really a Number one, I'd say it's useless because
it promotes empty apologies. Number two, I'd say it's unnecessary
because there are better ways. But ultimately, why is the
child apologizing when it's under duress, where it's coerced apology.
They're apologizing because they want to escape punishment. That's really it.
(09:22):
It's an extrinsically motivated.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Apology, and goes back to my conversation around this desire
and need to people please.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Yeah, yeah, but you know what, they're not developing. They're
not actually developing the empathy that we want them to develop,
mainly because of a lack of cognitive capacity, but also
because it's now being forced. They don't actually feel sorry.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
But on top of that, I'm sorry, I'm cutting in.
But on top of that, they don't feel seen, hurd
or valued either. Because if you're enforcing me to say sorry,
you don't see the hurt, you don't see what's happened
to me, you don't understand what I'm going through. All
you see is that I've done something and it's hurt
that person, but you didn't see what happened that led
(10:04):
me to that, and therefore I feel invisible.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
You said it before. It makes a victim of the
person who is the perpetrator. Yeah, big problem there. Ultimately,
when we do that, it stops them recognizing how their
actions are affecting others because now our actions are affecting them,
and it stops them from repairing. You see, effective repair,
(10:28):
true repair. Making amends is an active process, and it
works best when we're in that deeper end of the
motivation continuum. I think it's worth unpacking briefly why kids
don't want to apologize. What's your take on that?
Speaker 2 (10:44):
If I'm apologizing for something, then I have to admit
that I'm wrong, And if I admit that I'm wrong,
then in my mind, I'm not a good person.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Right right, What I'm hearing you say is an apology
comes down to, in some ways, a level of personal pride.
For me to apologize means I have to acknowledge that
in that moment, I was not at my best, I
was not who I should be.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah, and as a seven year old, I'm not thinking
that right Right? What I'm thinking is I'm trying so
hard to be a good person and now I'm getting
in trouble for it, and that clearly means I'm not
a good person.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
I have three other reasons on top of your very
very clear and important reason. Number One, I'm still frustrated
at the other person. I'm just not ready to apologize
to them. They offended me, they upset me, or whatever
it is, I'm still upset about the thing. Number Two,
I might be embarrassed. Let's say I broke a window,
or I said the wrong thing to somebody it got
(11:38):
blurted out, or somebody took a screenshot of something that
they weren't supposed to take, like, I'm embarrassed about that.
And number three, I'm scared what happens if I apologize.
There's some research that shows that adults really really worry
about apologizing as well, because number one, they're worried about
their ramifications, and number two, they find it stressful because
they feel like it's going to be humiliating. So that
(12:00):
research shows that when they apologize, it's not nearly as
stressful or humiliating as they thought it would be, and
they get the relief of the apology, but of course
the apology has to be meant.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
And if you round all of that out for me,
it comes back to this, we don't like to be uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
All of this is about being uncomfortable and getting used
to the feeling of being uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Which is kind of an argument for why you could
get your kids to apologize, right, because that discomfort it
helps them to tolerate the discomfort and also to feel
the relief. But I mean, being forgiven feels good assuming
you do get forgiveness. Sometimes the apology doesn't land quite
the way we want it to. The argument for apologizing
is forgiveness is nice. Kids can learn that frustration tolerance
(12:45):
and that discomfort tolerance, and they also do learn to
take responsibility. Although well, that's kind of an old school
argument I would argue against it. I don't think they
learn responsibility. I think they learn to be frightened of us.
But we do need to wrap this up. What are
we supposed to do when the kids do the wrong thing?
Must they apologize? Do we not do anything at all?
Do we give it space? How do we figure this out?
Speaker 2 (13:07):
I think what's really important is that as we allow
our children the autonomy to work through these challenges. We
help them to recognize that sometimes time is needed, and
that in that space of time, the person who's been
hurt is able to let go of their anger and
their hurt, and the person who's done the hurt is
(13:29):
able to recognize the part that they're played in that hurt.
And when we enforce it, we actually cut the learning
process off. We don't give either person time to actually
work through that in a positive way. But it requires
a fair bit of scaffolding, especially in those early years.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
We've got to be there to support them. Right, So
two things from me. Number one, we've got to model it.
We've got to actually show our kids how to sincerely
apologize when we get it wrong, either with one another
or with the kids themselves. A sincere apology has four components.
Number one, I'm sorry. Number two, because that's where we
(14:12):
say because I did this to you, So.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
It's not because you did this which made me do this.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
No. In fact, one of my sisters got really cranky
at one of our kids one time, and then she
realized she'd done the wrong thing and she apologized and
she said, I'm sorry, I got mad at you. But
if you hadn't done that, it wouldn't have happened. And
I'm like, no, that's not one an apology. No one
was forcing it. At least she said sorry, but it
was an ugly apology. So number one, I'm sorry, Number
two because I did this number three and it made
(14:39):
you feel that. In other words, I have reflected and
can see how my actions affected you. And then the
fourth and most important thing, will you forgive me? Oh gosh,
they're important words. That's how you know someone's really sincere
when they are so willing to be humbled that they
ask you to forgive them. They put the power of
the relationship in your hand. That is a profoundly good apology.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Over the years, we have used this structure and process
with our kids as we've made mistakes as parents, and
there's just something so beautiful when our kids recognize the
part they've played in a difficult situation and they come
and ask those words, will you forgive me? I just
I love that they're able to, through their own cognition
(15:28):
and introspection, recognize that they've done something that has ruptured
a relationship, and they're desirous to reconnect and make that right.
But it takes them seeing us be humble. This is
what it comes down to, the words humble, right, It's
letting go of our pride, it's letting go of the
(15:49):
acknowledgment that we're going to get it right all the time,
getting down to their level and saying I'm really sorry,
I got it wrong today and I know what made
you feel sad.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Will you forgive it?
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Will forgive me?
Speaker 1 (16:00):
We could do with those four words a lot more
in the world right now. So that's number one. Where
there's been a rupture, there has to be repair, and
when we model it, especially with that framework, it makes
a big difference. The second thing, and you've emphasized this,
but I really want to put a great, big red
mark under this so that everyone remembers that giving kids
the opportunity to reflect on their actions with our gentle
(16:21):
support and involvement leads to much better apologies because our
children do want good relationships with those around.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Them and much better learning.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Yeah, sorry if we went over time, but we hope
we've been helpful here. Should you force your kids to apologize?
The research is ambiguous. I say no, but they do
need to learn to apologize. The happy families podcast is
produced by Justin Ruhan from Bridge Media. We really hope
this has been a helpful conversation for you in your home.
(16:53):
If you would like more information about making your family happier,
please check out Happy Families dot com dot you, where
we have our brand new membership, including content for parents
to work with their kids. It's called Felt Fostering Emotional
Learning Together. It's amazing content, it's interactive, it's engaging, the
kids love it, and it's all available now as part
of our Happy Families membership at happyfamilies dot com dot
(17:15):
a
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