[R] Australia's most decorated Olympian, Emma McKeon, shares intimate insights about her journey from young swimmer to Olympic champion, revealing the crucial role her parents played in fostering success without pressure. Her story provides a masterclass in supporting children's sporting endeavors while maintaining joy and balance.
Key Points:
- The importance of enjoyment over achievement in youth sports
- How parental support without pressure builds self-determination
- Managing early-morning training and self-motivation
- Balancing multiple activities during teenage years
- Transforming competition anxiety into positive energy
Quote of the Episode: "They never pressured me either way to swim or not to swim... They just wanted me to enjoy what I was doing and be happy in what I was doing, find something I was passionate about."
Key Insights:
- Success comes from internal motivation, not external pressure
- The value of maintaining multiple interests and activities
- How to handle failure and setbacks constructively
- The importance of supporting children "no matter what"
- Why enjoyment must precede excellence
Personal Stories Shared:
- Missing the 2012 London Olympics by 0.1 seconds
- Early morning training experiences
- Having her father as both parent and coach
- Balancing swimming with other activities
Resources Mentioned:
- Self-Determination Theory
- Research on youth sports participation
- Multi-sport participation benefits
Action Steps for Parents:
- Focus on enjoyment before achievement
- Allow children to set their own goals
- Support multiple activities and interests
- Help reframe anxiety as excitement
- Maintain unconditional support regardless of performance
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Today, I'm a Happy Families podcast, an interview that I
am more excited about than just about any conversation I've
ever had. On the podcast, we're going to talk to
Emma McKee. And Emma is Australia's most decorated Olympic athlete ever,
with fourteen medals all up, six golds and a whole
lot of silvers and bronze. Emma has competed at the
(00:28):
Olympics in Rio, Tokyo, Paris, a bunch of Commonwealth Games
as well, and she joins me today after retiring from
Olympic and competitive swimming, to talk about parenting kids in
sports more generally and all things swimming and achievement goal oriented. Emma,
(00:48):
thank you so much for being with me on the
Happy Families Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
You started swimming at a really young age. What kept
you coming back to the pool when so many other
kids were dropping out of sport? I mean, we know
that there's a precipitous decline in kids staying in sport
once they get into their teenage years, but you just
kept going even though you'd started young. What kept you
coming back?
Speaker 3 (01:10):
I definitely still had a lot of friends in there,
even though there were a lot of friends that were
dropping out and I would also stop and start a lot,
I wasn't enjoying it, putting too much pressure on myself
or that kind of thing. And I think what ended
up with me coming back was my parents because they
were very relaxed about it all. They never pressured me
either way to swim or not to swim, or to
(01:32):
achieve or perform or anything. They just wanted me to
enjoy what I was doing and be happy in what
I was doing, find something I was passionate about. So
I think that's what brought me back all the time.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
This is a really big deal, and I'm so glad
that you brought your parents straight into it, because any
parent who's listening to this conversation is going to be saying, oh,
but I really want my kids to achieve. I want
them to set goals. I want them to be not
just confident, but I want them to excel somewhere. And
as a parent, you sit there on assembly and you
watch your kids get the sports stuff the ar or
you watch everyone else's kids get it, and you think,
(02:02):
what am I doing wrong? Your dad won medals at
Commonwealth Games, like he's You've got a really strong swimming
pedigree in your family. So many parents struggle with knowing
how much to push and when to pull back with
their kids, especially when it comes to sport. How did
your parents get this balance right? Why did this work
(02:23):
for you?
Speaker 3 (02:23):
I think it was definitely the balance. It was like
not pushing me to do a certain thing and not
pushing me to achieve a certain level or anything like that.
It was purely about enjoyment, especially from that young age,
because I think they knew that if there's something that
I love and that I enjoy and it's coming from me,
(02:44):
then that means the longer that I'll be doing it
for and for them, Like they wanted me to learn
how to swim from a young age, and then it
was all kind of directed by me and they encouraged that.
But it's that fine balance. And then also having the
balance then allowed me to be self determined and have
the self want to set goals and move ahead and
(03:05):
things like that.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
So I'm listening to what you're saying and reading between
the lines just a little bit. You're talking about encouragement.
You're talking about how they allowed you to make these choices.
But if I'm understanding you correctly. That would indicate that
there was still involvement. It's not like they said, hey, Emma,
to your life, do what you want. It sounds to
me like they were involved in conversations with you consistently
(03:27):
about what you were doing. What were those conversations like?
Because I can imagine, especially again, having a dad who's
got this sort of background, I can imagine him watching
you go to a race, or showing up to training
and seeing you swim in the pool. I mean, he
owned a swim school for goodness sakes. I would imagine
that it would have been hard for him to not say, hey, Emma,
you need to stretch out more with your right arm,
(03:48):
or I want you to work on your bilateral breathing.
I can imagine him saying, your kick's not quite right.
He wants to give you that coaching. Have they tread
that line in terms of being involved and being encouraging
and yet not going too far, not pushing That's something
that so many parents really struggle with.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Yeah, well, my dad was actually my coach, so he
was giving me those tips. Yeah, from about I think
I started swimming with him and his squad when I
was about thirteen, So before that I had other coaches
and mini squad coaches and things like that. And then
from about thirteen, I think it was thirteen, I moved
(04:27):
to my dad's squad and so he was giving me
those tips. But for him it was, you know, it
was much harder for him than it was for me.
To have my dad's my coach, because it was amazing
and I'm so lucky that I have my dad who
was my coach, and how he managed it all because
he balanced the father and coach extremely well, and as
(04:50):
soon as we left the pool, he's my dad and
at the pool he is also my dad. So yeah,
it was very hard for him to balance, I think,
but it was more like he knew if there was
a goal that I had that I'd set for myself,
then he knew, this is what you have to do
to get there, and then it's up to me to
make that happen, and he'll affixt that. And then my mom,
(05:12):
you know, she was a swimmer as well, so she
knew all about swimming, and I guess just knew how
to I think knew my personality that as soon as
I leave the pool, i'm, you know, a normal kid.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
As a teenager, I grew up swimming. My parents forced
me to do it. I just wanted to go surfing,
but I swam at a reasonable level. In fact, one
of the guys that I competed against went and won
an Olympic goal in a relay. But I was the
kid who I didn't set goals at all. I had
no interest in setting goals. In fact, my only goal
(05:45):
was to get to the other end of the pool
so I could jump out and go and spend ten
minutes in the toilet so I didn't have to swim
the laps. You've talked about how you're the one that's
setting the goals. Did your parents say, do you have
any goals? Did they encourage you to set goals? What
was that process? Because clearly, if you've got a vision
that you're working towards, that's going to help you to
(06:07):
be inspired to keep on pushing. So who was in
charge of that goal setting and how much were your
parents involved in what you decided?
Speaker 3 (06:15):
It was mostly set by me. Like from a young age,
I wanted to go to the Olympics and be like
the people that I was watching race on television, and
so then me saying that and my parents, I guess,
hearing me say that, then they could just encourage what
that was, what that goal was. And when you're young,
like that's like the big dream, it's not really like
(06:38):
a goal, whereas the goals are those short term type
things like I want to make this qualifying time to
get to the state championships and things like that. Yeah,
it was mostly driven by me and then encouraged by them.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
So here's the follow up question to that, because my
kids will often tell me that they've got a goal.
Their goal is to wake up this many days week
at such and such a time and go for a run,
or go for a swim, or do something that's healthy
for them physically. Or they've got an academic goal they
want to get a certain grade and a certain subject.
And then as a parent, I see them not getting
(07:13):
up and not doing the work that's necessary to get
the goal. So they expressed the goal, it's their goal,
not mine, and now they're not doing the work for it.
Did you ever do that? And if so, how did
your parents respond? Did they have to say, hey, Emma,
you told us that you wanted to do this and
now you're not doing the work, Like, do you want
it or do you not want it? Or do they
just stand back?
Speaker 2 (07:33):
I do it all the time.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Like when I was like, you know, still at school
and everything, I would not get out of bed, oh
like often to go to training, but it was always
like I had to set my alarm and like me
and my dad and my brother we were going off
to training together a quarter to five in the morning,
and if you're not downstairs by ten to five when
(07:55):
we're leaving, then that means you're not coming. And then
I would get the feeling myself of like guilt that
I didn't get up because I know I need to
and know I want to achieve these things, and then
I'd have to sit in that feeling and then eventually
you learn I don't want to have that feeling.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
So get up and go.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
But then my dad being like that and that you
have to set your alarm and be downstairs at that time,
that taught me the self determination and you know you're
doing it for you, you're doing it because you want
to and this is what you have to do to
get what you want, which is like I've carried that
through my whole career and will for my whole life.
Is like that self discipline and accountability and things like that.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
You've used the term self determination a couple of times.
The theory that all of my parenting work is based
on is called self determination theory, and it's a profoundly
valuable psychological theory that argues that we will have when
we have to be compelled to do something is because
we're in an environment where our psychological needs are not
being supported. But when we are doing things with a
(09:01):
high level of commitment, we're doing those things because how
psychological needs are being supported. Those needs are We need
to have good relationships with the people with whom we're
doing that activity. We need to feel a sense of
competence and capability, or at least that we're progressing towards competence. Last,
and I think the lynchpin to the whole thing is
this thing called autonomy. We have to be doing it
(09:23):
because we're choosing it, rather than because it's being forced
upon me. As I listen to your story, here's what
I'm hearing. I'm hearing Emma McKean, Australia's most decorated Olympian ever,
saying I liked the people that I was there with
because they were my friends know of my family. I
was good at it and knew that I was getting
better because I was getting a high quality of instruction
and therefore, and I was able to measure my progress
(09:45):
and see my improvements and my increase in capability, capacity, competence,
and ultimately this came down to me. I was the
one who was choosing it. It feels like this is
the very core of what your success has been. Being
an environment that supports those needs.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Yeah, supports the needs and then also supports from the
young age. It has to support the enjoyment is the
first thing. And then while you are enjoying it, you're
learning all these other skills of turning up on time
and working hard on your little skills, and you're learning
all these other skills that you are then going to
need as you get older. But the enjoyment part is
(10:21):
the focus.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
We're getting young, Evan.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
We often hear about the sacrifices that athletes make up
and down the pool, staring at that black line hour
after hour after hour, but we rarely hear about the joy.
What were some of the most enjoyable aspects of your
journey to Olympic glory that parents might want to create
for their own children in sport.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
I mean it's different from when I'm young, when I
was young to when I was older. When I was older,
it was having the things that I'll always reflect John
is having my family in the stands at the Olympics
or World Championships and knowing.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
They're there and you know, they've.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
Traveled around the world to watch me and share me
on and support me, and knowing that whether I do well,
whether I don't do well, like they know whether I'm
going to be happy or not with my performance, but
they're the same no matter what as well. So that's
one of the fun and enjoyable and special parts. And
then when I was young the fun things that it's
(11:26):
a social part, like traveling around two different meats and
things with my friends and playing handball and seeing what
I can do once I got in for the race,
but then got out and I'm you know, being social
and hanging out with my friends.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Those three words no matter what are particularly meaningful to me.
It's something that I emphasize a lot when I'm talking
to parents. I just love that, but I also love
for that younger element. There's a recurring theme in this conversation.
That is, my parents didn't push me, and when I
wasn't swimming, I was just being a kid having fun
with my friends. Like handball. You go to the meet,
(12:00):
you can see everyone and play handball, and oh, yeah,
I've got to go and swim those races. That's the
feeling that I'm getting from you.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Definitely.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
Yeah, that's what kept me. That's what brought me the
enjoyment and kept me going when I was young.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Emma, if you look back at your teenage years and
you're swimming there, what would you wish for for every
young athlete from their coaches and parents? What do you
wish that more coaches and parents understood about the children,
the adolescents that their coaching or encouraging to to do well.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
I think it's from that really young age.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
It's not.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Pushing kids too hard, and not in swimming or in
other sports, but for swimming as a sport that I know,
not making them do kilometers and kilometers of swimming and
laps up to lapse, and I don't think that's healthy
from a really young age. It's got to be the enjoyment.
You've got to find the love for it, because that's
what's going to keep you going for longer. It's got
(12:54):
to be, like I was saying earlier, the enjoyment and
then teaching those small that end up being quite big
skills of paying attention to the little details or turning
up on time, or working well with your teammates and
that kind of thing. But the focus has got to
be that enjoyment because kids, well, for me, I know,
I hated doing life after life after that when I
(13:17):
had to do it. And if I was doing k's
and k's when I was young, I would not have
made it through anywhere close.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
To what I have.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Well, your family, as we've already identified, has a really
rich swimming heritage. How do you think that influenced your
relationship with the sport And was there ever a time
where you just thought, no, I want to I want
to get away from swimming because this is what my
family is known for and I don't want to do that. Like,
was there ever any resistance for you?
Speaker 3 (13:44):
There was a little bit, but that kind of came
from me, Like I never felt any pressure because my
family was in swimming or anything like that to do it.
But different times, like I guess I thought that I
wanted to kind of get away from a little bit
during my teenage years and things. But I think I
(14:04):
eventually realized, no, I do love this and it's such
a special thing to be able to do with my family.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
I love that you realize that.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Yeah, to me, that's the that's the key. Okay, Emma,
do you have the mental capacity for a lightning round?
Speaker 2 (14:22):
I've just had a coffee, so.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Help, I'm so ready for this. You know the deal?
A lightning round? First thing that comes into your mind.
Very short answers. I mean, if you need to elaborate,
you can, but looking for the quick instant response. Question
number one. First thing you do when you wake up,
make a coffee even before a swim. Yeah, most embarrassing
(14:45):
pool deck moment.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Maybe diving in and doing butterfly when I meant to
do freestyle and then switching over.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
That would be embarrassing. I apresume they disqualify you for that.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah, if you were to swimmer, what sport would you
have pursued?
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Surfing? American?
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Do you shred?
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Not? Now? I never did it, actually, but I loved
it when I was like around fifteen.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Surfing is my sport. Oh, I love it, absolutely love it.
Emma mcke and your favorite post race.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Meal a burger and chip.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
So healthy. That's not what I was expecting at all.
Most played song on your warm up list some Beyonce.
We're a superstition that you've adopted before a race.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
I don't have any superstitions.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
With a superstition you've heard about, and you are welcome
to name the athlete.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
I've heard about people not wanting to stand on a
crack like in the ground.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Wow, because that's going to slow them down that much? Yeah, amazing.
What's a better feeling breaking a world record or eating
pizza after months of training?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Breaking a world record?
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Definitely, I'm glad you said that. What's the most unusual
place that you've done a workout?
Speaker 3 (16:05):
Maybe a hotel room or I mean during COVID we
were working out in all kinds of strange places.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Yeah, i'd imagine. What's your go to karaoke song?
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Maybe it's an adder.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Most memorable goggle malfunction moment.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Probably when you just dive in and they just come
down to your neck, they just put some water.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Does that happen often? I mean, there's that legendary story
about Michael Phelps goggles filling up with water, but he
counted his strokes and still said a world record. Is
it a regular thing? I mean, I'm a swimmer, but
I never have issues with my goggles.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Does it can happen?
Speaker 3 (16:44):
It can happen, But I like, before I will race
or before I'll dive in, I'm pressing them so hard
on my face to make sure it doesn't happen.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
I bet. Yeah, Okay, this is kind of a tricky
lightning round question, but I love to ask it. Welcome
to take as long as you need to think it through.
Best piece of advice that you've ever ignored.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
After Tokyo, I continued to race. I took a small
break and then tried to keep racing again. And probably
I needed to come home and not race because I
was so mentally drained and burnt out.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
And I ignored that and stayed over. He's racing.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
So the advice was take a breather, let your body recover,
and you just said.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
No, and I didn't do that.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Yeah. Interesting, obviously retirement now, but when you were competing,
what was the longest you would go without getting in a.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Pool after an Olympics. I'd off and take about three
to four months off.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
That's a much bigger gap than I expected.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Yeah, so that's but that's only once every four years
or five years after chat.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
If you if you could instantly master any skill outside
of swimming, what would that be?
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Singing?
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Huh? How do you? How do you really?
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:02):
So abbot karaoke is wonderfully terrible, wonderfully entertaining? Is the
word terrible? Just delightfully fun? Two questions to go, first
gold medal or last gold medal? Which one meant more.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
The first one because it's something I d job sits
I was very little, like five years old, and then
in Rio it was on the first night of the
swimming standing on top of the podium. It's just such
a surreal experience and you don't, like you imagine what
it might feel like, but just actually standing there is
(18:36):
a whole another, a whole other feeling.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Does the feeling of winning gold, setting a world record?
Does the feeling diminish over time because you have done
it so many times, especially compared to most athletes. Do
you kind of get to the point where you're like, yep,
expected it, yep, did it? Box ticked? What's next? Or
is it one of those things where you really do
sit in that moment every time and think, my goodness
(19:01):
fastest ever.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
The feeling is just as surreal and just as special
every single time. But I would say there's also that
element of Okay, what's next, what more can I do?
Which is part of being an athlete or part of
my experience at an athlete, always wanting to be better. So
that was something I had to like juggle because you
need to be able to sit in it and feel
(19:23):
proud in all the good feelings.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Let me ask you about your early swimming again, because
most parents who are listening to this are going to
have kids who were twelve and younger or fourteen and
younger who were involved in sport, and quite often kids
are having high levels of anxiety before they compete in
a race, or before they go out and play a
big game, or before they sit down and do an exam.
You've spoken about experiencing anxiety before races, mostly big races,
(19:46):
which makes sense. When you were younger, did you feel
that same sort of pressure. Was there anxiety before you
swim when you were a twelve year old or a
sixteen year old?
Speaker 3 (19:57):
Yeah, it's definitely still got nervous while I was young,
and that's just because I cared about what I was
about to do and didn't know what I might be
about to do.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
And so the.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Nerves that are actually were same whether whether I was
at a state level meet or through to when I
eventually was at in the Olympic. So nerves are nerves
and what it is.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
So if a parents talking to their child and their
child's saying, I'm just so nervous and I'm really anxious.
I don't know if I can compete or I don't know
if I'm going to do any any good, what would
you say, Like, how did you develop the mental tools
to manage those big moments. What advice would you give
to any young athletes who are saying, I'm just I'm
facing all this pressure, I don't know if I can
do it.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
I think it's refraining it in your head and seeing
the nerves is.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
A good thing.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
The nerves are like little doubts of energy that you
can use in your race, and nerves are showing you
that you care. Nerves are showing you that you're doing
something brave and worthwhile, and I think it's reframing it
in more of a positive way.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
There's a psychological strategy called self distancing, and in so
many ways you've just described what that is. Okay, more questions, Emma.
You've achieved extraordinary success. Everybody knows that. But what I'd
like to know is what role failure played in your development?
Speaker 2 (21:10):
A huge amount.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
The I think the failure is everyone says it, but
it's really true. Is the failure is what has taught
me the most. It's taught me how to get back
up again. It's taught me how to pay attention to
what can I do better next time. It's given me
motivation at times, and it's taught me a lot about
myself as well. So and like managing managing it and
(21:38):
being disappointed because disappoint it's okay to be disappointed when
you do fail because you care, and then being able
to put it aside and move on forward and try
again next time. Missing the London twenty twelve team for Olympics.
I missed that one by zero point one of a second.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
So that was.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
Definitely a big factor in my career because I think
had I made that team, the story would been very
different to what it is now.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
But I missed that team.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
I ended up stopping swimming I didn't want to wait
another four years to go to the Olympics all that
kind of thing. And then eventually learned from lessons I
had to learn, and then came back into the sport,
into the sport, and you know, I had to learn
about that. I had to pay more attention to the
small things. I had to be turning up every session,
and like when I was there, I would always work hard,
(22:31):
but I had to turn up more often. And then
I had to also learn how to deal with the
pressure I was putting on myself as well.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
And there are a lot of parents worry about the children
becoming two one dimensional in pursuit of their sporting excellence.
Sometimes it's the parents pushing them. Other times, Oh it's
kids that are really really focused themselves. What did you
do to maintain balance while you're pursuing those goals.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
All through teenage years, I was doing a bit of everything,
Like I was setting big goals, and those big goals
at that time was you know, qualifying for meat or
doing a PB or things like that in swimming. But
I was doing a bit of everything. I was doing basketball, dancing,
whatever I wanted to try, Like I was doing piano,
(23:11):
so there was that balance across a lot of activities.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Yeah, there's so much research that says don't concentrate on
one thing too hard, too soon. Just do stuff, experience
a range of activity, breadth of activity, and then as
you get older, zero internet and everything you've said seems
to point in that direction. My final question if there
is a parent who really wants their child to succeed
and their child does not seem to have the get
(23:35):
up and go that and Emma McKean clearly demonstrated with
that wonderful self determining approach to life and specifically to
your sport, what would you say to that parent.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
I think once you've told the kid that to get
somewhere you have to work hard at it, once the
kid knows that they have to learn that for themselves.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
But also so maybe.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
They haven't found the thing that they're passionate about to
make them want to get up and go.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Yet make it about the child rather than about you.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Evan mckairn really appreciate your generosity in chatting with me.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Thank you, all right, thank you, it's good chat.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from
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We like the five star ones the best by the
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Today, I'm a Happy Families podcast, an interview that I
am more excited about than just about any conversation I've
ever had. On the podcast, we're going to talk to
Emma McKee. And Emma is Australia's most decorated Olympic athlete ever,
with fourteen medals all up, six golds and a whole
lot of silvers and bronze. Emma has competed at the
(00:28):
Olympics in Rio, Tokyo, Paris, a bunch of Commonwealth Games
as well, and she joins me today after retiring from
Olympic and competitive swimming, to talk about parenting kids in
sports more generally and all things swimming and achievement goal oriented. Emma,
(00:48):
thank you so much for being with me on the
Happy Families Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
You started swimming at a really young age. What kept
you coming back to the pool when so many other
kids were dropping out of sport? I mean, we know
that there's a precipitous decline in kids staying in sport
once they get into their teenage years, but you just
kept going even though you'd started young. What kept you
coming back?
Speaker 3 (01:10):
I definitely still had a lot of friends in there,
even though there were a lot of friends that were
dropping out and I would also stop and start a lot,
I wasn't enjoying it, putting too much pressure on myself
or that kind of thing. And I think what ended
up with me coming back was my parents because they
were very relaxed about it all. They never pressured me
either way to swim or not to swim, or to
(01:32):
achieve or perform or anything. They just wanted me to
enjoy what I was doing and be happy in what
I was doing, find something I was passionate about. So
I think that's what brought me back all the time.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
This is a really big deal, and I'm so glad
that you brought your parents straight into it, because any
parent who's listening to this conversation is going to be saying, oh,
but I really want my kids to achieve. I want
them to set goals. I want them to be not
just confident, but I want them to excel somewhere. And
as a parent, you sit there on assembly and you
watch your kids get the sports stuff the ar or
you watch everyone else's kids get it, and you think,
(02:02):
what am I doing wrong? Your dad won medals at
Commonwealth Games, like he's You've got a really strong swimming
pedigree in your family. So many parents struggle with knowing
how much to push and when to pull back with
their kids, especially when it comes to sport. How did
your parents get this balance right? Why did this work
(02:23):
for you?
Speaker 3 (02:23):
I think it was definitely the balance. It was like
not pushing me to do a certain thing and not
pushing me to achieve a certain level or anything like that.
It was purely about enjoyment, especially from that young age,
because I think they knew that if there's something that
I love and that I enjoy and it's coming from me,
(02:44):
then that means the longer that I'll be doing it
for and for them, Like they wanted me to learn
how to swim from a young age, and then it
was all kind of directed by me and they encouraged that.
But it's that fine balance. And then also having the
balance then allowed me to be self determined and have
the self want to set goals and move ahead and
(03:05):
things like that.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
So I'm listening to what you're saying and reading between
the lines just a little bit. You're talking about encouragement.
You're talking about how they allowed you to make these choices.
But if I'm understanding you correctly. That would indicate that
there was still involvement. It's not like they said, hey, Emma,
to your life, do what you want. It sounds to
me like they were involved in conversations with you consistently
(03:27):
about what you were doing. What were those conversations like?
Because I can imagine, especially again, having a dad who's
got this sort of background, I can imagine him watching
you go to a race, or showing up to training
and seeing you swim in the pool. I mean, he
owned a swim school for goodness sakes. I would imagine
that it would have been hard for him to not say, hey, Emma,
you need to stretch out more with your right arm,
(03:48):
or I want you to work on your bilateral breathing.
I can imagine him saying, your kick's not quite right.
He wants to give you that coaching. Have they tread
that line in terms of being involved and being encouraging
and yet not going too far, not pushing That's something
that so many parents really struggle with.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Yeah, well, my dad was actually my coach, so he
was giving me those tips. Yeah, from about I think
I started swimming with him and his squad when I
was about thirteen, So before that I had other coaches
and mini squad coaches and things like that. And then
from about thirteen, I think it was thirteen, I moved
(04:27):
to my dad's squad and so he was giving me
those tips. But for him it was, you know, it
was much harder for him than it was for me.
To have my dad's my coach, because it was amazing
and I'm so lucky that I have my dad who
was my coach, and how he managed it all because
he balanced the father and coach extremely well, and as
(04:50):
soon as we left the pool, he's my dad and
at the pool he is also my dad. So yeah,
it was very hard for him to balance, I think,
but it was more like he knew if there was
a goal that I had that I'd set for myself,
then he knew, this is what you have to do
to get there, and then it's up to me to
make that happen, and he'll affixt that. And then my mom,
(05:12):
you know, she was a swimmer as well, so she
knew all about swimming, and I guess just knew how
to I think knew my personality that as soon as
I leave the pool, i'm, you know, a normal kid.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
As a teenager, I grew up swimming. My parents forced
me to do it. I just wanted to go surfing,
but I swam at a reasonable level. In fact, one
of the guys that I competed against went and won
an Olympic goal in a relay. But I was the
kid who I didn't set goals at all. I had
no interest in setting goals. In fact, my only goal
(05:45):
was to get to the other end of the pool
so I could jump out and go and spend ten
minutes in the toilet so I didn't have to swim
the laps. You've talked about how you're the one that's
setting the goals. Did your parents say, do you have
any goals? Did they encourage you to set goals? What
was that process? Because clearly, if you've got a vision
that you're working towards, that's going to help you to
(06:07):
be inspired to keep on pushing. So who was in
charge of that goal setting and how much were your
parents involved in what you decided?
Speaker 3 (06:15):
It was mostly set by me. Like from a young age,
I wanted to go to the Olympics and be like
the people that I was watching race on television, and
so then me saying that and my parents, I guess,
hearing me say that, then they could just encourage what
that was, what that goal was. And when you're young,
like that's like the big dream, it's not really like
(06:38):
a goal, whereas the goals are those short term type
things like I want to make this qualifying time to
get to the state championships and things like that. Yeah,
it was mostly driven by me and then encouraged by them.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
So here's the follow up question to that, because my
kids will often tell me that they've got a goal.
Their goal is to wake up this many days week
at such and such a time and go for a run,
or go for a swim, or do something that's healthy
for them physically. Or they've got an academic goal they
want to get a certain grade and a certain subject.
And then as a parent, I see them not getting
(07:13):
up and not doing the work that's necessary to get
the goal. So they expressed the goal, it's their goal,
not mine, and now they're not doing the work for it.
Did you ever do that? And if so, how did
your parents respond? Did they have to say, hey, Emma,
you told us that you wanted to do this and
now you're not doing the work, Like, do you want
it or do you not want it? Or do they
just stand back?
Speaker 2 (07:33):
I do it all the time.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Like when I was like, you know, still at school
and everything, I would not get out of bed, oh
like often to go to training, but it was always
like I had to set my alarm and like me
and my dad and my brother we were going off
to training together a quarter to five in the morning,
and if you're not downstairs by ten to five when
(07:55):
we're leaving, then that means you're not coming. And then
I would get the feeling myself of like guilt that
I didn't get up because I know I need to
and know I want to achieve these things, and then
I'd have to sit in that feeling and then eventually
you learn I don't want to have that feeling.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
So get up and go.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
But then my dad being like that and that you
have to set your alarm and be downstairs at that time,
that taught me the self determination and you know you're
doing it for you, you're doing it because you want
to and this is what you have to do to
get what you want, which is like I've carried that
through my whole career and will for my whole life.
Is like that self discipline and accountability and things like that.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
You've used the term self determination a couple of times.
The theory that all of my parenting work is based
on is called self determination theory, and it's a profoundly
valuable psychological theory that argues that we will have when
we have to be compelled to do something is because
we're in an environment where our psychological needs are not
being supported. But when we are doing things with a
(09:01):
high level of commitment, we're doing those things because how
psychological needs are being supported. Those needs are We need
to have good relationships with the people with whom we're
doing that activity. We need to feel a sense of
competence and capability, or at least that we're progressing towards competence. Last,
and I think the lynchpin to the whole thing is
this thing called autonomy. We have to be doing it
(09:23):
because we're choosing it, rather than because it's being forced
upon me. As I listen to your story, here's what
I'm hearing. I'm hearing Emma McKean, Australia's most decorated Olympian ever,
saying I liked the people that I was there with
because they were my friends know of my family. I
was good at it and knew that I was getting
better because I was getting a high quality of instruction
and therefore, and I was able to measure my progress
(09:45):
and see my improvements and my increase in capability, capacity, competence,
and ultimately this came down to me. I was the
one who was choosing it. It feels like this is
the very core of what your success has been. Being
an environment that supports those needs.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Yeah, supports the needs and then also supports from the
young age. It has to support the enjoyment is the
first thing. And then while you are enjoying it, you're
learning all these other skills of turning up on time
and working hard on your little skills, and you're learning
all these other skills that you are then going to
need as you get older. But the enjoyment part is
(10:21):
the focus.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
We're getting young, Evan.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
We often hear about the sacrifices that athletes make up
and down the pool, staring at that black line hour
after hour after hour, but we rarely hear about the joy.
What were some of the most enjoyable aspects of your
journey to Olympic glory that parents might want to create
for their own children in sport.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
I mean it's different from when I'm young, when I
was young to when I was older. When I was older,
it was having the things that I'll always reflect John
is having my family in the stands at the Olympics
or World Championships and knowing.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
They're there and you know, they've.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
Traveled around the world to watch me and share me
on and support me, and knowing that whether I do well,
whether I don't do well, like they know whether I'm
going to be happy or not with my performance, but
they're the same no matter what as well. So that's
one of the fun and enjoyable and special parts. And
then when I was young the fun things that it's
(11:26):
a social part, like traveling around two different meats and
things with my friends and playing handball and seeing what
I can do once I got in for the race,
but then got out and I'm you know, being social
and hanging out with my friends.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Those three words no matter what are particularly meaningful to me.
It's something that I emphasize a lot when I'm talking
to parents. I just love that, but I also love
for that younger element. There's a recurring theme in this conversation.
That is, my parents didn't push me, and when I
wasn't swimming, I was just being a kid having fun
with my friends. Like handball. You go to the meet,
(12:00):
you can see everyone and play handball, and oh, yeah,
I've got to go and swim those races. That's the
feeling that I'm getting from you.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Definitely.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
Yeah, that's what kept me. That's what brought me the
enjoyment and kept me going when I was young.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Emma, if you look back at your teenage years and
you're swimming there, what would you wish for for every
young athlete from their coaches and parents? What do you
wish that more coaches and parents understood about the children,
the adolescents that their coaching or encouraging to to do well.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
I think it's from that really young age.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
It's not.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Pushing kids too hard, and not in swimming or in
other sports, but for swimming as a sport that I know,
not making them do kilometers and kilometers of swimming and
laps up to lapse, and I don't think that's healthy
from a really young age. It's got to be the enjoyment.
You've got to find the love for it, because that's
what's going to keep you going for longer. It's got
(12:54):
to be, like I was saying earlier, the enjoyment and
then teaching those small that end up being quite big
skills of paying attention to the little details or turning
up on time, or working well with your teammates and
that kind of thing. But the focus has got to
be that enjoyment because kids, well, for me, I know,
I hated doing life after life after that when I
(13:17):
had to do it. And if I was doing k's
and k's when I was young, I would not have
made it through anywhere close.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
To what I have.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Well, your family, as we've already identified, has a really
rich swimming heritage. How do you think that influenced your
relationship with the sport And was there ever a time
where you just thought, no, I want to I want
to get away from swimming because this is what my
family is known for and I don't want to do that. Like,
was there ever any resistance for you?
Speaker 3 (13:44):
There was a little bit, but that kind of came
from me, Like I never felt any pressure because my
family was in swimming or anything like that to do it.
But different times, like I guess I thought that I
wanted to kind of get away from a little bit
during my teenage years and things. But I think I
(14:04):
eventually realized, no, I do love this and it's such
a special thing to be able to do with my family.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
I love that you realize that.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Yeah, to me, that's the that's the key. Okay, Emma,
do you have the mental capacity for a lightning round?
Speaker 2 (14:22):
I've just had a coffee, so.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Help, I'm so ready for this. You know the deal?
A lightning round? First thing that comes into your mind.
Very short answers. I mean, if you need to elaborate,
you can, but looking for the quick instant response. Question
number one. First thing you do when you wake up,
make a coffee even before a swim. Yeah, most embarrassing
(14:45):
pool deck moment.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Maybe diving in and doing butterfly when I meant to
do freestyle and then switching over.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
That would be embarrassing. I apresume they disqualify you for that.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah, if you were to swimmer, what sport would you
have pursued?
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Surfing? American?
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Do you shred?
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Not? Now? I never did it, actually, but I loved
it when I was like around fifteen.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Surfing is my sport. Oh, I love it, absolutely love it.
Emma mcke and your favorite post race.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Meal a burger and chip.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
So healthy. That's not what I was expecting at all.
Most played song on your warm up list some Beyonce.
We're a superstition that you've adopted before a race.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
I don't have any superstitions.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
With a superstition you've heard about, and you are welcome
to name the athlete.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
I've heard about people not wanting to stand on a
crack like in the ground.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Wow, because that's going to slow them down that much? Yeah, amazing.
What's a better feeling breaking a world record or eating
pizza after months of training?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Breaking a world record?
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Definitely, I'm glad you said that. What's the most unusual
place that you've done a workout?
Speaker 3 (16:05):
Maybe a hotel room or I mean during COVID we
were working out in all kinds of strange places.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Yeah, i'd imagine. What's your go to karaoke song?
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Maybe it's an adder.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Most memorable goggle malfunction moment.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Probably when you just dive in and they just come
down to your neck, they just put some water.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Does that happen often? I mean, there's that legendary story
about Michael Phelps goggles filling up with water, but he
counted his strokes and still said a world record. Is
it a regular thing? I mean, I'm a swimmer, but
I never have issues with my goggles.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Does it can happen?
Speaker 3 (16:44):
It can happen, But I like, before I will race
or before I'll dive in, I'm pressing them so hard
on my face to make sure it doesn't happen.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
I bet. Yeah, Okay, this is kind of a tricky
lightning round question, but I love to ask it. Welcome
to take as long as you need to think it through.
Best piece of advice that you've ever ignored.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
After Tokyo, I continued to race. I took a small
break and then tried to keep racing again. And probably
I needed to come home and not race because I
was so mentally drained and burnt out.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
And I ignored that and stayed over. He's racing.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
So the advice was take a breather, let your body recover,
and you just said.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
No, and I didn't do that.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Yeah. Interesting, obviously retirement now, but when you were competing,
what was the longest you would go without getting in a.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Pool after an Olympics. I'd off and take about three
to four months off.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
That's a much bigger gap than I expected.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Yeah, so that's but that's only once every four years
or five years after chat.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
If you if you could instantly master any skill outside
of swimming, what would that be?
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Singing?
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Huh? How do you? How do you really?
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:02):
So abbot karaoke is wonderfully terrible, wonderfully entertaining? Is the
word terrible? Just delightfully fun? Two questions to go, first
gold medal or last gold medal? Which one meant more.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
The first one because it's something I d job sits
I was very little, like five years old, and then
in Rio it was on the first night of the
swimming standing on top of the podium. It's just such
a surreal experience and you don't, like you imagine what
it might feel like, but just actually standing there is
(18:36):
a whole another, a whole other feeling.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Does the feeling of winning gold, setting a world record?
Does the feeling diminish over time because you have done
it so many times, especially compared to most athletes. Do
you kind of get to the point where you're like, yep,
expected it, yep, did it? Box ticked? What's next? Or
is it one of those things where you really do
sit in that moment every time and think, my goodness
(19:01):
fastest ever.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
The feeling is just as surreal and just as special
every single time. But I would say there's also that
element of Okay, what's next, what more can I do?
Which is part of being an athlete or part of
my experience at an athlete, always wanting to be better. So
that was something I had to like juggle because you
need to be able to sit in it and feel
(19:23):
proud in all the good feelings.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Let me ask you about your early swimming again, because
most parents who are listening to this are going to
have kids who were twelve and younger or fourteen and
younger who were involved in sport, and quite often kids
are having high levels of anxiety before they compete in
a race, or before they go out and play a
big game, or before they sit down and do an exam.
You've spoken about experiencing anxiety before races, mostly big races,
(19:46):
which makes sense. When you were younger, did you feel
that same sort of pressure. Was there anxiety before you
swim when you were a twelve year old or a
sixteen year old?
Speaker 3 (19:57):
Yeah, it's definitely still got nervous while I was young,
and that's just because I cared about what I was
about to do and didn't know what I might be
about to do.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
And so the.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Nerves that are actually were same whether whether I was
at a state level meet or through to when I
eventually was at in the Olympic. So nerves are nerves
and what it is.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
So if a parents talking to their child and their
child's saying, I'm just so nervous and I'm really anxious.
I don't know if I can compete or I don't know
if I'm going to do any any good, what would
you say, Like, how did you develop the mental tools
to manage those big moments. What advice would you give
to any young athletes who are saying, I'm just I'm
facing all this pressure, I don't know if I can
do it.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
I think it's refraining it in your head and seeing
the nerves is.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
A good thing.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
The nerves are like little doubts of energy that you
can use in your race, and nerves are showing you
that you care. Nerves are showing you that you're doing
something brave and worthwhile, and I think it's reframing it
in more of a positive way.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
There's a psychological strategy called self distancing, and in so
many ways you've just described what that is. Okay, more questions, Emma.
You've achieved extraordinary success. Everybody knows that. But what I'd
like to know is what role failure played in your development?
Speaker 2 (21:10):
A huge amount.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
The I think the failure is everyone says it, but
it's really true. Is the failure is what has taught
me the most. It's taught me how to get back
up again. It's taught me how to pay attention to
what can I do better next time. It's given me
motivation at times, and it's taught me a lot about
myself as well. So and like managing managing it and
(21:38):
being disappointed because disappoint it's okay to be disappointed when
you do fail because you care, and then being able
to put it aside and move on forward and try
again next time. Missing the London twenty twelve team for Olympics.
I missed that one by zero point one of a second.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
So that was.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
Definitely a big factor in my career because I think
had I made that team, the story would been very
different to what it is now.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
But I missed that team.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
I ended up stopping swimming I didn't want to wait
another four years to go to the Olympics all that
kind of thing. And then eventually learned from lessons I
had to learn, and then came back into the sport,
into the sport, and you know, I had to learn
about that. I had to pay more attention to the
small things. I had to be turning up every session,
and like when I was there, I would always work hard,
(22:31):
but I had to turn up more often. And then
I had to also learn how to deal with the
pressure I was putting on myself as well.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
And there are a lot of parents worry about the children
becoming two one dimensional in pursuit of their sporting excellence.
Sometimes it's the parents pushing them. Other times, Oh it's
kids that are really really focused themselves. What did you
do to maintain balance while you're pursuing those goals.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
All through teenage years, I was doing a bit of everything,
Like I was setting big goals, and those big goals
at that time was you know, qualifying for meat or
doing a PB or things like that in swimming. But
I was doing a bit of everything. I was doing basketball, dancing,
whatever I wanted to try, Like I was doing piano,
(23:11):
so there was that balance across a lot of activities.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Yeah, there's so much research that says don't concentrate on
one thing too hard, too soon. Just do stuff, experience
a range of activity, breadth of activity, and then as
you get older, zero internet and everything you've said seems
to point in that direction. My final question if there
is a parent who really wants their child to succeed
and their child does not seem to have the get
(23:35):
up and go that and Emma McKean clearly demonstrated with
that wonderful self determining approach to life and specifically to
your sport, what would you say to that parent.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
I think once you've told the kid that to get
somewhere you have to work hard at it, once the
kid knows that they have to learn that for themselves.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
But also so maybe.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
They haven't found the thing that they're passionate about to
make them want to get up and go.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Yet make it about the child rather than about you.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Evan mckairn really appreciate your generosity in chatting with me.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Thank you, all right, thank you, it's good chat.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from
Bridge Media. If you like the podcast. Can we invite
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We like the five star ones the best by the
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com