#1235 - Doing Away With Punishments & Rewards

What if both punishments and rewards were doing more harm than good? In this thought-provoking episode, Dr. Justin and Kylie Coulson preview a powerful interview with renowned author and social critic Alfie Kohn, whose work challenges everything we thought we knew about behavior, discipline, and motivation. Discover why traditional approaches to parenting might be undermining your child’s moral development—and what to do instead.

QUOTE OF THE EPISODE:
"Punishment teaches power. It undermines the possibility of moral growth in children." — Alfie Kohn

KEY INSIGHTS FOR PARENTS:

• Punishments Breed Self-Interest: When children are punished, they focus inward on avoiding pain, not outward on the consequences of their actions for others.

• Rewards Are the Flip Side of Punishments: Offering incentives fosters compliance, not character—and undermines intrinsic motivation.

• Consequences ≠ Learning: Just because something causes suffering doesn’t mean it leads to meaningful growth or moral insight.

• Transactional Parenting Limits Growth: Using "if-then" tactics (do this, get that) stifles empathy and moral reasoning.

• What We Really Want: Kids who do the right thing because it’s right, not because of fear or bribery.

RESOURCES MENTIONED:

• Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn

• Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn

• Full interview with Alfie Kohn (airing Saturday on the Happy Families Podcast)

• Website: happyfamilies.com.au

ACTION STEPS FOR PARENTS:

1. Reflect on Your Approach: Ask yourself—am I raising a rule follower or a morally grounded child?

2. Minimise External Motivators: Reduce the use of punishments and rewards in everyday parenting.

3. Focus on Conversations: Engage your child in discussions about values, empathy, and the impact of their actions.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
What if it was not a good idea to not
just punish your children, but a bad idea to reward them.
Imagine if somebody was to write a book that explained
that rewards and punishments are the lowest form of education
and there are so many different things we could be
doing to help our children to behave in helpful ways,

(00:26):
in fact, to go deeper to develop moral character. Hello,
welcome to the Happy Families Podcast, Real Parenting Solutions every Day.
It's Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. Thank you so much
for joining us. We are Justin and Kylie Colson and Kylie.
Today we're going to have a quick chat a preview
of an interview that I did with one of the
world's most fascinating people, I think, a guy called Alfie Cone.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
Let me read out his bio.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
Alfie Cone is a renowned author, educator, and social critic
who's been challenging conventional wisdom in education, parenting, and human
behavior for over three decades. Known for his provocative books
including Punished by Rewards and The Schools Our Children Deserve,
Alfiecone's been a vocal critic of standardized testing, traditional grading systems,
and competitive educational approaches. His research back to arguments advocate

(01:15):
for collaborative learning environments, unconditional parenting, and intrinsic motivation over
reward based systems. As one of the world's most outspoken
voices on these topics, he continues to influence teachers, parents
and policymakers through his lectures, articles, and books that question
our fundamental assumptions about how we learn and grow. And
he's on the Happy Families podcast on Saturday. Such a

(01:38):
great conversation. Kylie got to talk to him about some
really cool stuff, and this was an interview that you
listened to and just were blown away by.

Speaker 3 (01:47):
For an academic who writes very dry, listening to him
is just an exercise of sitting on the edge of
your seat the entire time. Everything that comes out out
of his mouth is just a what.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
I don't even think he right strive, but the way
he speaks, he's dynamic and excitable would be the word
that I use.

Speaker 3 (02:08):
Passionate.

Speaker 2 (02:09):
Passionate. Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
So we're going to share just two snippets of a much, much,
much much longer conversation in today's podcast. We'll replay the
whole thing on Saturday. I think that you're going to
love it. We're going to start by sharing a thing
that he shared with me when I asked him what
is the problem with punishment, Here's what he said.

Speaker 4 (02:29):
Punishment teaches power. It undermines the possibility of moral growth
in children. If I say to kids, do this, or
here's how I'm going to make you suffer, which is
what punishment is. And by the way, you can call
it consequences, it's still the same thing. It says to kids,
do this or here's what I'm going to do to you.

(02:50):
Then kids are first of all, thinking only about themselves,
how do I avoid the punishment? Never about the impact
of their actions on others. All use of consequences, punishment
focuses kids narrowly on self interest.

Speaker 1 (03:11):
That was about forty seconds. There are so many things
that we can pull out of that that. I mean,
this is dense. There is a lot for us to discuss.

Speaker 3 (03:21):
The thing that stands out to me specifically here is
the word I. I have read his works, I have
listened to him specifically talk about this topic a number
of times now, and maybe I've just forgotten, but hearing

(03:42):
at this time the recognition that while ever we provide
a consequence for our child. Essentially, what we are doing
is turning their thinking inward.

Speaker 1 (03:57):
So the way that I described this when I'm teaching
similar principle is that punishment makes kids the victim and
they start to think about themselves. Like if you stick
a child in time out to think about what they've done,
they just think about how much they hate you, how
unfair you are, how you don't understand what's going on.
It makes it all about them, And like you said,
therefore it undermines moral growth and it exacerbates, it amplifies

(04:20):
selfishness because I'm thinking about me rather than the impact
of what I did and how it affected other people.

Speaker 3 (04:26):
And then if you take it the next step further,
then how do I avoid punishment actually pushes bad behavior underground?

Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah, exactly, we.

Speaker 3 (04:36):
Just find ways to do the same thing without getting
caught next time. I think about the numerous times, whether
it be in the classroom, even in our home from
time to time where kids have literally said you can't
do that to me, they're not thinking about what they've done.
They're literally thinking about how they get away with doing.

(04:59):
What they're doing is a no. That idea of a
moral compass. There isn't one.

Speaker 1 (05:04):
And that is the thing when I'm talking about why
we need to move away from punishments, it's because of
moral reasons. If I'm only doing something out of self interest,
then I'm not going to experience the inner growth. I'm
not going to develop the moral character that's necessary for
me to understand that. I'm not going to develop the
empathy because it's just about if I do it, what's

(05:27):
going to happen to me?

Speaker 2 (05:27):
Or if I don't do it, what's going to happen
to me? Am I willing? It makes everything transactional. I
think it breeds psychopathy.

Speaker 3 (05:35):
And when you see it so starkly put like that,
you can see how within school systems specifically, because we're
talking about children, you've almost got this vicious cycle happening
between kids doing the wrong things, teachers punishing or providing
consequences for their behavior, which then in turn creates a

(05:56):
bigger dynamic that's going on, and we just keep going
around in this ugly, ugly circle of kids who then
become labeled for being troubling kids, but the systems actually
creating it.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
You've used the word consequences several times now as you've
been talking about it, and I'm really glad that Alfie
points this out that punishment and consequences are basically synonymous.
It's just that consequences is a diluted, softer, nicer.

Speaker 3 (06:25):
Way, so we feel like we're being a good person
because we're not punishing them.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
That's right. There's just consequences to what you've done. Now.

Speaker 1 (06:30):
Now, it's true that consequences exist whether you apply them
or not. But really, at the heart of it, punishment
is about applying the kinds of consequences that lead to suffering,
but they don't necessarily lead to learning.

Speaker 3 (06:42):
Yeah, I like that.

Speaker 1 (06:43):
After the break, we're going to talk about something else
that Alfie Kohn is not a fan of rewards.

Speaker 2 (06:55):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (06:55):
One of the most fascinating conversations that I've ever had
on the podcast was with Alphie Carr. Alphacone's written some
of the most influential books in my life. Unconditional Parenting
and Punished by Rewards are two books that I leave
in my top ten at all times. They're just phenomenal books.
And he answered my question when I asked, what's the problem?

(07:16):
I get the issue with punishment. What's the problem with
rewards because so many parents really do want to reward
to bribe their kids.

Speaker 2 (07:26):
Here's what he said.

Speaker 4 (07:27):
Rewards are just the flip side of punishment. So if
I reward children or offer to reward them, I'm saying,
do this and you'll get that. So in the first case,
with punishment, kids come to ask the question what do
they want me to do? And what happens to me
if I don't do it. If you offer a reward

(07:48):
for good behavior, which typically means mindlessly obedient, not generous
or thoughtful, then the question kids come to ask is
what do they want me to do and what do
I for doing it? And so the research is very
clear that rewards, like punishments, can only get temporary compliance,

(08:10):
and in both cases they retard moral and social and
intellectual development.

Speaker 3 (08:16):
Oh, this guy's so good on the surface, you think
that by offering your children a reward, you're encouraging them
to do good things. And yet his words, just what
is it that I'm trying to achieve when I ask
my child to do something? When I suggest that if

(08:39):
they do X, Y and Z, there's a reward, no
parent is going to ask for mindless obedience.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
Well, every now and again, it's kind of handy.

Speaker 1 (08:48):
I'm not going to lie like sometimes it's just just
do it, don't even ask, just do it. But again,
if you go back to the punishment conversation, what we're
really loving for is character.

Speaker 2 (08:57):
We're looking for moral de development.

Speaker 3 (09:00):
But mindless obedience only helps them while ever you're in
the room, precisely as soon as you're not there, there's
no moral compass guiding their every move.

Speaker 1 (09:08):
Wouldn't it be nice if they had developed the character
to look for ways that they could serve and have
an impact in the lives of others, So that, for example,
if you were away for a couple of hours, you
came home and they cleaned up the kitchen or hung
out a lot of washing or done something like that,
why not because they want not because they want a rod,

(09:30):
but because they've recognized that there's a need and they're
inclined to help. We will have a much longer conversation
with Alfie Cone on Saturday. We just wanted to give
you a taste because my goodness, is this an interview
that you want to catch to home?

Speaker 3 (09:46):
Miss out?

Speaker 2 (09:47):
Yeah? Absolutely, So that's on Saturday the full thing.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
Alfie Cone, author Social critic, commentator.

Speaker 2 (09:53):
And all round a genius is what I'm going to say.

Speaker 1 (09:57):
Genius and the author of some of my favorite book
books will play the whole interview for you on Saturday.

Speaker 2 (10:03):
I think that you're going to absolutely love it.

Speaker 1 (10:07):
The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from
Bridge Media. For more information and resources to make your
family happier, visit happyfamilies dot com dot a