May 13, 2025 • 20 mins
How do you juggle a high-powered global career and single motherhood — and still show up for your child with presence and purpose? In this inspiring episode, Justin speaks with Sarah Armstrong, Vice President of Global Marketing Operations at Google and author of The Art of the Juggling Act: A Bite-Sized Guide for Working Parents. Sarah shares practical insights on setting boundaries, overcoming mum guilt, building a support network, and navigating divorce with grace — all while raising a well-rounded daughter.
KEY POINTS:
- Setting and protecting boundaries is critical to successful work-family balance.
- Communicating your boundaries to others is as important as establishing them.
- Mum guilt is real — but grace and self-talk like “I’m doing the best I can” help reframe it.
- A solid support system — whether formal or informal — is essential for working parents.
- Children benefit from being included in adult conversations and exposed to diverse role models.
- A “good divorce” is possible through conscious, respectful co-parenting and emotional self-regulation.
- You can't control others' behaviour—but you can control your own responses, especially around your kids.
QUOTE OF THE EPISODE:
"Our kids deserve a few hours of our undivided attention. I didn’t just set boundaries — I protected them." – Sarah Armstrong
RESOURCES MENTIONED:
- The Art of the Juggling Act: A Bite-Sized Guide for Working Parents by Sarah Armstrong
- Visit: happyfamilies.com.au
ACTION STEPS FOR PARENTS:
- Define your non-negotiable boundaries (e.g., family time, tech-free windows).
- Communicate those boundaries clearly to work colleagues, clients, and family.
- Build a diverse support network — friends, neighbours, co-parents, and community members.
- Practice grace-based self-talk: Remind yourself, “I’m doing the best I can.”
- Include your kids in adult life — expose them to positive role models and conversations.
- In separation or divorce, prioritise your child’s emotional safety by regulating your own behaviour and language around them.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
How do you raise a child as a single mum,
go through a divorce and still become the Vice president
of Global Marketing Operations at Google. Global Marketing Operations at
Google Vice President Sarah Armstrong is that person. Also the
author of the Art of the Juggling Act, a bite
sized guide for working parents. Today, I'm a Happy Families
podcast where we give you real parenting solutions every day.
(00:27):
It's Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. I talk with Sarah
Armstrong about her book and about her life experience. So, Sarah,
the main reason that I wanted to talk to you, well,
there were several reasons that I really wanted to talk
to you. Number one, I don't know anybody who's ever
been on this podcast with a CV like yours. We
have vice president of Global Marketing Operations at Google. You're
(00:48):
a partner at McKinsey, worked for the Coca Cola Company
in global marketing for twenty years, a career at Leo Burnett.
Blah blah blah. I mean, I'm saying blah blah blah.
But most people can't even comprehend having a CV like this,
So that's that's huge. But secondly, Kylie and I run
this pod. We've been married for nearly thirty years, you've
been through a divorce, and you're a single mom. In fact,
(01:08):
you've raised your daughter Grace primarily as a single mum
while you were building that impressive resume. And so I thought,
we've got single mom, we've got divorce, and we've got
this incredible resume. How can I? Oh, Plus, you've got
a brand new book that's just come out. It's called
the Art of the Juggling Act, Bite Sized Guide for
Working Parents by Sarah Armstrong. We will link to that
in the show notes. And I thought, let's get some
bite sized advice from somebody who clearly knows how to juggle.
(01:31):
I'd imagine you've been doing it for twenty plus years,
as you've done this parenting thing.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah. Well, first of all, I agreeed to be with
you justin, and yes, I have been juggling Greece. My
daughter is twenty two, she's about to graduate from college.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
But I've been juggling for quite some time.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
And you know the reason I have decided to would
I can't give back on this topic because I think
it's such an important topic and as parents, you look
back on how we go through educated and the education system.
We learn a lot of things in school, but we
don't actually learn about parenting in school, you know, It's
not a topic that gets covered. And then we also
(02:09):
don't learn about how to manage our career in school,
you know. And then you think, we have two of
the most important aspects of our life and we're trying
to do them at the same time. And I see
a lot of young parents that I work with every
day that are i'd say they're surviving, but they're not thriving.
And I look at that and think, how how can
(02:30):
we help, you know, the parents of today really figure
out how to manage the struggling act because it is
a very real thing.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Okay, so there's dozens and dozens and dozens of suggestions
in your book The Art of the Juggling Act. Something
that I've really struggled with running my own business and
with six children and having a range of responsibilities around
the place is setting boundaries between work and family life.
I've got a home office, My hours are unusual. I
(02:57):
do a lot of nighttime work, running parenting seminars. I'm
trying to write books, which I me an inspiration just
strikes when it does. Many parents have similar challenges around
boundaries between work and family. I'm looking at the career
that you've had, especially with Google and Mackensey and Coca Cola.
What boundaries did you decide we're non negotiable for you?
And how did you then go to your boss or
(03:19):
to your colleagues or to your clients and say this
is a red line moment here and we're not stepping
over this line.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
No, it's a great question, justin and I do think
setting and protecting boundaries is one of the most important
things that I think we need to do as working parents.
And the first thing is to figure out what you
want those boundaries to be, and then to actually tell
those people around you that those are your boundaries. Because
what I find is we might tell ourselves that we
are boundaries, but if we actually don't share them with
(03:47):
those around us, they will step right over them, literally.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
On them, over them, and I'll be above.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
And so it's one of the things that I did
very early on in my time of raising Greece. Actually
put in my color it said Grace time her name
was Grace. That made sense, but what it allowed me
to do it was two hours in the evening. You know,
it was basically dinner time, getting ready for bedtime, you know,
reading books, whatever the case was when she was younger.
(04:13):
But those two hours were non negotiables for me, and
I would tell my assistant, Look, if someone wants to
talk to me, they can talk to me at nine
pm a night.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
They can talk to me tomorrow morning. I'm my way
to school after I drop off for carpool. But those
two hours of Grace's.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Time, because she had so few hours with me and
me having a chance to spend quality of time with her,
that I worked really hard to protect that time, and
it was really kind of fundamental to how I decided
to raise her and link to that. Justin is the
technology that comes into our lives and is so prevalent now.
(04:50):
And one of the things that I consciously did is
I'm different than you.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
I wasn't working from home.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
I was going into an office for a majority of
Grace's upbringing. And I had actually built a cupboard in
my back hallway when I walked in, literally my laptop, case,
my toe, everything went in that cupboard for those two
hours just away. I didn't want to see it because
I do think when we keep our laptop, even our phones,
(05:17):
put a laptop, for sure, on the kitchen counter or
on the down room table. They talk, even if they're clothes,
they're talking to you. And I think our kids deserve
those couple hours of our undebated attention and being as
a present as possible. And so those were two things,
sharing and protecting my boundaries, putting grace time on my calendar,
and then finding that cupboard and putting the technology away
(05:39):
for the time that I was meant to be spending
with Grace.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Listening to the ideas that you've shared there, Sarah, it
sounds like Grace came along when you were already working
at a fairly senior level in corporate life. How do
you recommend somebody who is not senior go to their
boss and say, I've got to have some boundaries here,
like my work is assuming my life and my capacity
(06:02):
to have relationships with the people that matter most to me.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
I do think it's a conversation and it's one that
has to happen. And so I think approaching whoever you're
working with and saying, look, I'm going to set aside
this time for you know, this part of my life.
It doesn't mean I'm not going to get my work done.
I always called it transference of hours. Okay, it might
not be in the typical nine to five, and to
your point, you have evening work or you know, it's
(06:26):
like whenever you need to get it done, you'll get
it done. But ideally it's one not when you're hopefully
spending that quality time with your children and be hopefully
you're able to set aside, you know, for other aspects.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Of your life that you're wanting to nurture, whether it's
relationships or friendships and those things. But I do think
it's about having a conversation and putting it out there.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
I love hearing that. I'm really interested about. I mean,
you've traveled a lot of the world with work. Your
career has taken you on dozens of countries. How do
you approach questions of travel and relocation and work when
you're trying to provide a stable and predictable environment for
your child.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Yeah. I traveled literally from well actually Grace while I
was pregnant with Grace, she was in ten countries with
me in Euroes. She traveled the world with me before
she was even born. But no, yeah, I had the
fortunate situation where I was in global roles for the
last thirty years and so there was always global travel.
And what I will say is I felt really strong,
(07:28):
and I do feel strong that parents should travel both
personally and professionally as they need to, and that your
kids will be just fine as long as you have
good support at home, whether it's a spouse, whether it's
a nanny, a family member or friend who's going to
stay with them. But from the time Grace was very little,
I was on a plane going to different countries to
(07:49):
do what I need to do. And that was just
really both important to me, important to the role I
was doing, and I found it very fulfilling to do
that travel. But it also, I will tell you, justin
it made Grace really have such a global view, you know,
and raising her and understanding that we live in a
very I I always told her, we live in a
very small world.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Grace.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
It's a very small world, and you can, you know,
go and see it when you know, over the course
of years. But I also, interestingly enough, even when I
wasn't traveling, I was bringing a lot of my colleagues
that would come into town to our house for dinner,
because I wanted Grace to meet people from around the
world and meet my colleagues in a way. That also
so it wasn't that mom was just going to travel
(08:30):
and didn't have any contexts. I wanted to see kind
of names and faces. Understand there were people behind that
travel that I was connecting with, and we're both colleagues
and friends, and so that was something I did. On
the verse side when I wasn't on a plane, there
were nights where, you know, I'd have them over for
dinner and we'd all sit together and have dinner, and
that was a fun part of it as well.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
I have a hypothesis around that particular decision to have
your daughter in the presence of a whole lot of adults,
high achieving, successful adults, people that you're working with. My
hypothesis follows my thesis. My idea is as follows. We
allow our children to spend too much time with their peers,
particularly in unsupervised, unmonitored ways, and their peers are not
usually going to be great role models. They're not going
(09:10):
to give them something to aspire to or look towards,
or they're not typically going to be somebody that they
can learn from. My preference, very much as much as
my children sometimes resist it, is that I want them
to be sitting at the table with the adults. I
want them to be surrounded by people who are thinking
about bigger questions, who are working towards solving bigger problems.
(09:30):
I want them to be around people who can be
role models and examples of what it is to live
a healthy and successful life. Do you have any pushback
to that? Do you think that kids should be allowed
to hide in the corner with their buddies or do
you think that bring them in is a great idea.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
I like a big believer in bringing them in. I
think into the conversation, into meeting people again from different
parts of the world and different cultures and different backgrounds,
and I think, you know, Grace learns something from each
of those people, and to this day, you know, those
are friends of ours. I say, have a family of
friends around the world, and you know, and they all
know Grace, and Grace knows them. And I think that
(10:06):
that bringing your kids into those conversations at an early
enough age where they feel that they can be part
of the conversation.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
I think it's one of the best one of the
best guests you can give them actually.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Because there's a confidence that children get from talking to adults,
and then if you're talking to adults from you know,
various parts of the world, it's just a it's the
next level, I think, in terms of that kind of
maturity that you'll see in them over the course of time.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
As we consider this out of the juggling act the
name as your book, you mentioned before building a support system,
and I really wanted to pick up on that. You're
a single parent, high pressure career. How do you build
a support system that works for both you and your daughter,
especially with all that travel, and what advice do you
have for parents? How do you do that juggle when
you're constrained from a resource perspective to give the kids
(11:00):
what they need, but still have the liberty to pursue
the things that are really important to you and fulfilling
to your career wise.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yeah, that's a great question, and yes, I think there's
a lot of different ways to find support. And I
always say that I was fortunate we did have. First
of all, I had a very supportive husband and then
ex husband and he and I co parented Grace over
the years of her childhood. But I also had friends
and neighbors that were, you know, part of that support system.
(11:29):
My family lived out of town, so we did not
have the ability to lean on them as maybe some
would have an opportunity to. But I think it's looking
around within your community and figuring out what is the
right support network. It could be a daycare. You know,
there's lots of different ways to find that support, but
it is I think fundamental as a working parent to
(11:51):
figure out what is it you think you need and
be okay with the fact that you're going to need help.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
This is not something you're expected to do by yourself. Yeah,
it really is.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
I mean, there's a lot to take on, and so
I was always very conscious of the fact that it
wasn't just going to be you know, me raising Grace
that I need I needed help, and so, you know,
I really leaned on a lot of different people in
many different ways. And I say that I had a
wonderful group of working mom friends, but you know, quite asty,
they weren't doing their own juggling act. And I had
(12:22):
some really close stay at home mom friends and they
were the ones that you know, when Grace need to
be picked up at school and you know I was
in London or whatever the case.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
I mean, they were the ones that said, I've got her,
no problem, don't worry.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
And so I think that's something just knowing you have
a group of people there for you. But it can
come in various shapes and forms in different relationships. It's
just a matter of you figuring out what you think
you need and then having that conversation of the expectation
that you're you're going to lean.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
On them this career, Sarah, so much time has to
be spent away from your daughter, so much time has
to be spent at the office. There are so many priorities.
And I know you've got your no goz ones, You've
got your bound You've got this, this is this is
not to be touched. I get to prioritize that. But
the one of the things that I hear all the time.
(13:08):
I see it on Instagram, I see it on Facebook,
I see it on TikTok. It's just the mum guilt,
the feeling that I'm not doing enough at home, I'm
not doing enough at work, I'm letting everybody down. Did
you ever experience that do you have any sort of
imposter syndrome around being a parent? How do you manage that?
What advice would you give for parents who are caught
up in the whole mum guilt cycle?
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Yeah, well it's it is. It is a very raal thing,
mum guilt.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
I joked that I was raised Catholics, so it's also
it's like double doubly doubly prevalent prevalent. But now you know,
one of the things I think is important as a
mom or as a working parent is first and foremost
when you have made the decision to have children, and
then you also, in fairness most likely need to work,
and then you're trying to juggle both.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
You have to realize that.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
I have a saying that I used to tell myself,
and it was I'm doing the best thing, okay. And
that was my little mantra that I would tell myself,
because you can always feel like you could be doing
something better. You could be doing something better at work,
you could be doing something better in terms of showing
up for your children or whatever the case may be.
But I would just say, and I would even say
to Grace, Mom's doing the best I can. The reason
(14:16):
I said that is because that for me kind of
helped to not trigger any type of guilt because I knew,
look out the best.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
I can't.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
I can't make myself self feel guilty for the choices
I'm making because at this moment in this you know,
whatever I was trying to focus on, that was that
was what I was, that was the mindset I was
trying to instill in myself, and so I really did
kind of fight any feeling of guilt. I also justin
always knew I wanted to work and have a family,
and it was something I was very committed to. I
(14:46):
was very excited about, and so I went into it
knowing that it was going to be, you know, the
struggling act and I needed to figure it out.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
But it wasn't something that.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
I was going to you know, beat myself up about
once I got into it, because I felt like was
a choice.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
I'd mat I'm thinking about the I'm doing the best
that I can mantra this this piece of advice, and
I look at that. Speaking quite personally here, my oldest
daughter is in a mid twenties. She and her husband
have got a baby girl.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
And.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
She's just gone back to school she's gone back to
school so that she can upskill, she can get some
more qualifications, and she's about to obviously once her education
is completed, juggle even more. As I believe they're planning
on more children. She's going to have a career. She's
got to juggle the like. There's so much going on there,
and I just think the grace that you give yourself,
(15:39):
not as a cop out or as an excuse, because
you're being productive and efficient and you are juggling like
you are keeping those balls in the air, but the
grace that you give yourself around this idea that I
am actually doing the best that I can. It's kind
of the support that we need to give ourselves when
sometimes there isn't anybody else to lean on. I just
I really appreciate that. Now you're an advocate of the
good divorce. Your parents have been married for what like
(16:01):
five decades or something fifty five.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Years actually heading in fifty seven, I think this year
in fifty seven amazing.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
And so you look at that and obviously have a wonderful,
wonderful sense of awe for their relationships, and yet you
advocate for a good divorce. Talk a bit about that
you've written about it quite quite explicitly. In fact, you've
got a book about it. How did you how did
your perspective on healthy relationships evolve going through a divorce
(16:31):
or separation, obviously having a healthy marriage at least at
some point, and having your parents as that model. How
does all this fit together for you?
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Yeah? No, well it is. It's an interesting journey.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
I always say that, you know, you don't get married
with the intent of getting divorced. You know, that's not like, Okay,
when I get married and then when I get divorced,
that's not part of the plan.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
You know.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
And I generally say you don't get divorce for positive reasons.
Usually there's some type of trigger that's led you to that.
But for me, the most important thing to reflect on
is that children don't get to decide that their parents
are getting a divorce, and they're the most significantly impacted.
And to your point, justin my parents were married for
fifty seven years and so happened, right. But I saw
(17:12):
some very ugly divorces among their friend group growing up,
and I saw those and I went at the point
when I realized that we were going to be going
through a divorce I just said to myself, I don't
want that for Grace. I don't want that situation and
the toxicity that can come with the negativity of a divorce.
And so I spoke to my Snabiak's husband and I said, look,
(17:35):
I want to figure out a way will we do
this where Grace isn't collateral damage in this divorce. And
so we just took some very conscious steps along the way,
and from the minute we decided to get a divorce
all the way through. She's graduating in a month and
we will both be at her graduation, you know, with
both of our families, you know, celebrating that milestone in
her life. But it's been a very conscious decision. We
(17:56):
got divorce and she was seven, you know, and so
she had eleven years of living across two homes, which
is a huge thing for a young child to have
to go through.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
And it wasn't something I wanted for her. But we
took a lot of steps over the course of time
to make sure that. I always said I didn't want
the first thing to come out of Graces and how
yours down the road as well, my parents were divorced,
Like I felt like there should be much more commentary
in her life before we get to that fact, it
should be a hopefully a passing statement versus that the statement,
(18:25):
and so we took a lot of different measures to
make sure that we could end up with what we've
called a good divorce.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Sarah, let's move towards conclusion. Your book is called The
Art of the Juggling Act. Clearly you've done plenty of
that bite sized guide for working parents. When you consider
the book they've written and the advice that you put
in there, is there any one thing that is just
your favorite thing to lean on when people say, oh,
tell me about the book or tell me what I
need to do to get this juggling act right. What's
(18:54):
your favorite bit of advice to share with parents around this?
Speaker 3 (18:56):
You know, I think to recognize that everyone's struggling at
is going to be their own unique juggling act, but
also that you're not alone, and to realize, going back
to my point about asking for help, it's also important
to realize that you can compare notes with people around you,
listen to a podcast like here is justin. There's ways
(19:17):
to get support so you don't feel like you are
going through this by yourself and that is something that
we're all trying to figure out. But it's teeking pieces
from various sources and ways of support to then figure
out how you want to manage your juggling act. I
think it's one of the hardest things to realize is
sometimes you feel like you're just in it and you
can't really lift your head up and look around to
(19:39):
see how you can get some help, some points of
inspiration and maybe change some ways that you're doing things.
But that's probably the thing that I'd say is kind
of fundamental to this whole thing.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Sarah Armstrong, thank you so much for taking time out
of your day to spend time with us on that
Bey Family's podcast.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
Thank you so much for having justin to spend time
with you.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Sarah Armstrong is the author of the Art of the
Juggling Act, a bite sized guide for working parents, the
vice president of Global Marketing Operations at Google, and the
proud mum of Grace who is, as you heard, finishing
off her university degree, finishing up at college, getting on
with being an adult herself. Thank you so much for
listening to the Happy Families podcast. Really hope that it
helps you in the decisions that you're making and gives
(20:23):
you the practical, bite size advice that you need to
guide your family to flourishing. The Happy Families podcast is
produced by Justin Rulan from Bridge Media. If you would
like more information and more advice, more help to make
your family happier, visit us at happy families dot com
dot au
How do you raise a child as a single mum,
go through a divorce and still become the Vice president
of Global Marketing Operations at Google. Global Marketing Operations at
Google Vice President Sarah Armstrong is that person. Also the
author of the Art of the Juggling Act, a bite
sized guide for working parents. Today, I'm a Happy Families
podcast where we give you real parenting solutions every day.
(00:27):
It's Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. I talk with Sarah
Armstrong about her book and about her life experience. So, Sarah,
the main reason that I wanted to talk to you, well,
there were several reasons that I really wanted to talk
to you. Number one, I don't know anybody who's ever
been on this podcast with a CV like yours. We
have vice president of Global Marketing Operations at Google. You're
(00:48):
a partner at McKinsey, worked for the Coca Cola Company
in global marketing for twenty years, a career at Leo Burnett.
Blah blah blah. I mean, I'm saying blah blah blah.
But most people can't even comprehend having a CV like this,
So that's that's huge. But secondly, Kylie and I run
this pod. We've been married for nearly thirty years, you've
been through a divorce, and you're a single mom. In fact,
(01:08):
you've raised your daughter Grace primarily as a single mum
while you were building that impressive resume. And so I thought,
we've got single mom, we've got divorce, and we've got
this incredible resume. How can I? Oh, Plus, you've got
a brand new book that's just come out. It's called
the Art of the Juggling Act, Bite Sized Guide for
Working Parents by Sarah Armstrong. We will link to that
in the show notes. And I thought, let's get some
bite sized advice from somebody who clearly knows how to juggle.
(01:31):
I'd imagine you've been doing it for twenty plus years,
as you've done this parenting thing.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah. Well, first of all, I agreeed to be with
you justin, and yes, I have been juggling Greece. My
daughter is twenty two, she's about to graduate from college.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
But I've been juggling for quite some time.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
And you know the reason I have decided to would
I can't give back on this topic because I think
it's such an important topic and as parents, you look
back on how we go through educated and the education system.
We learn a lot of things in school, but we
don't actually learn about parenting in school, you know, It's
not a topic that gets covered. And then we also
(02:09):
don't learn about how to manage our career in school,
you know. And then you think, we have two of
the most important aspects of our life and we're trying
to do them at the same time. And I see
a lot of young parents that I work with every
day that are i'd say they're surviving, but they're not thriving.
And I look at that and think, how how can
(02:30):
we help, you know, the parents of today really figure
out how to manage the struggling act because it is
a very real thing.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Okay, so there's dozens and dozens and dozens of suggestions
in your book The Art of the Juggling Act. Something
that I've really struggled with running my own business and
with six children and having a range of responsibilities around
the place is setting boundaries between work and family life.
I've got a home office, My hours are unusual. I
(02:57):
do a lot of nighttime work, running parenting seminars. I'm
trying to write books, which I me an inspiration just
strikes when it does. Many parents have similar challenges around
boundaries between work and family. I'm looking at the career
that you've had, especially with Google and Mackensey and Coca Cola.
What boundaries did you decide we're non negotiable for you?
And how did you then go to your boss or
(03:19):
to your colleagues or to your clients and say this
is a red line moment here and we're not stepping
over this line.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
No, it's a great question, justin and I do think
setting and protecting boundaries is one of the most important
things that I think we need to do as working parents.
And the first thing is to figure out what you
want those boundaries to be, and then to actually tell
those people around you that those are your boundaries. Because
what I find is we might tell ourselves that we
are boundaries, but if we actually don't share them with
(03:47):
those around us, they will step right over them, literally.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
On them, over them, and I'll be above.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
And so it's one of the things that I did
very early on in my time of raising Greece. Actually
put in my color it said Grace time her name
was Grace. That made sense, but what it allowed me
to do it was two hours in the evening. You know,
it was basically dinner time, getting ready for bedtime, you know,
reading books, whatever the case was when she was younger.
(04:13):
But those two hours were non negotiables for me, and
I would tell my assistant, Look, if someone wants to
talk to me, they can talk to me at nine
pm a night.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
They can talk to me tomorrow morning. I'm my way
to school after I drop off for carpool. But those
two hours of Grace's.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Time, because she had so few hours with me and
me having a chance to spend quality of time with her,
that I worked really hard to protect that time, and
it was really kind of fundamental to how I decided
to raise her and link to that. Justin is the
technology that comes into our lives and is so prevalent now.
(04:50):
And one of the things that I consciously did is
I'm different than you.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
I wasn't working from home.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
I was going into an office for a majority of
Grace's upbringing. And I had actually built a cupboard in
my back hallway when I walked in, literally my laptop, case,
my toe, everything went in that cupboard for those two
hours just away. I didn't want to see it because
I do think when we keep our laptop, even our phones,
(05:17):
put a laptop, for sure, on the kitchen counter or
on the down room table. They talk, even if they're clothes,
they're talking to you. And I think our kids deserve
those couple hours of our undebated attention and being as
a present as possible. And so those were two things,
sharing and protecting my boundaries, putting grace time on my calendar,
and then finding that cupboard and putting the technology away
(05:39):
for the time that I was meant to be spending
with Grace.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Listening to the ideas that you've shared there, Sarah, it
sounds like Grace came along when you were already working
at a fairly senior level in corporate life. How do
you recommend somebody who is not senior go to their
boss and say, I've got to have some boundaries here,
like my work is assuming my life and my capacity
(06:02):
to have relationships with the people that matter most to me.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
I do think it's a conversation and it's one that
has to happen. And so I think approaching whoever you're
working with and saying, look, I'm going to set aside
this time for you know, this part of my life.
It doesn't mean I'm not going to get my work done.
I always called it transference of hours. Okay, it might
not be in the typical nine to five, and to
your point, you have evening work or you know, it's
(06:26):
like whenever you need to get it done, you'll get
it done. But ideally it's one not when you're hopefully
spending that quality time with your children and be hopefully
you're able to set aside, you know, for other aspects.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Of your life that you're wanting to nurture, whether it's
relationships or friendships and those things. But I do think
it's about having a conversation and putting it out there.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
I love hearing that. I'm really interested about. I mean,
you've traveled a lot of the world with work. Your
career has taken you on dozens of countries. How do
you approach questions of travel and relocation and work when
you're trying to provide a stable and predictable environment for
your child.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Yeah. I traveled literally from well actually Grace while I
was pregnant with Grace, she was in ten countries with
me in Euroes. She traveled the world with me before
she was even born. But no, yeah, I had the
fortunate situation where I was in global roles for the
last thirty years and so there was always global travel.
And what I will say is I felt really strong,
(07:28):
and I do feel strong that parents should travel both
personally and professionally as they need to, and that your
kids will be just fine as long as you have
good support at home, whether it's a spouse, whether it's
a nanny, a family member or friend who's going to
stay with them. But from the time Grace was very little,
I was on a plane going to different countries to
(07:49):
do what I need to do. And that was just
really both important to me, important to the role I
was doing, and I found it very fulfilling to do
that travel. But it also, I will tell you, justin
it made Grace really have such a global view, you know,
and raising her and understanding that we live in a
very I I always told her, we live in a
very small world.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Grace.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
It's a very small world, and you can, you know,
go and see it when you know, over the course
of years. But I also, interestingly enough, even when I
wasn't traveling, I was bringing a lot of my colleagues
that would come into town to our house for dinner,
because I wanted Grace to meet people from around the
world and meet my colleagues in a way. That also
so it wasn't that mom was just going to travel
(08:30):
and didn't have any contexts. I wanted to see kind
of names and faces. Understand there were people behind that
travel that I was connecting with, and we're both colleagues
and friends, and so that was something I did. On
the verse side when I wasn't on a plane, there
were nights where, you know, I'd have them over for
dinner and we'd all sit together and have dinner, and
that was a fun part of it as well.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
I have a hypothesis around that particular decision to have
your daughter in the presence of a whole lot of adults,
high achieving, successful adults, people that you're working with. My
hypothesis follows my thesis. My idea is as follows. We
allow our children to spend too much time with their peers,
particularly in unsupervised, unmonitored ways, and their peers are not
usually going to be great role models. They're not going
(09:10):
to give them something to aspire to or look towards,
or they're not typically going to be somebody that they
can learn from. My preference, very much as much as
my children sometimes resist it, is that I want them
to be sitting at the table with the adults. I
want them to be surrounded by people who are thinking
about bigger questions, who are working towards solving bigger problems.
(09:30):
I want them to be around people who can be
role models and examples of what it is to live
a healthy and successful life. Do you have any pushback
to that? Do you think that kids should be allowed
to hide in the corner with their buddies or do
you think that bring them in is a great idea.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
I like a big believer in bringing them in. I
think into the conversation, into meeting people again from different
parts of the world and different cultures and different backgrounds,
and I think, you know, Grace learns something from each
of those people, and to this day, you know, those
are friends of ours. I say, have a family of
friends around the world, and you know, and they all
know Grace, and Grace knows them. And I think that
(10:06):
that bringing your kids into those conversations at an early
enough age where they feel that they can be part
of the conversation.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
I think it's one of the best one of the
best guests you can give them actually.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Because there's a confidence that children get from talking to adults,
and then if you're talking to adults from you know,
various parts of the world, it's just a it's the
next level, I think, in terms of that kind of
maturity that you'll see in them over the course of time.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
As we consider this out of the juggling act the
name as your book, you mentioned before building a support system,
and I really wanted to pick up on that. You're
a single parent, high pressure career. How do you build
a support system that works for both you and your daughter,
especially with all that travel, and what advice do you
have for parents? How do you do that juggle when
you're constrained from a resource perspective to give the kids
(11:00):
what they need, but still have the liberty to pursue
the things that are really important to you and fulfilling
to your career wise.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yeah, that's a great question, and yes, I think there's
a lot of different ways to find support. And I
always say that I was fortunate we did have. First
of all, I had a very supportive husband and then
ex husband and he and I co parented Grace over
the years of her childhood. But I also had friends
and neighbors that were, you know, part of that support system.
(11:29):
My family lived out of town, so we did not
have the ability to lean on them as maybe some
would have an opportunity to. But I think it's looking
around within your community and figuring out what is the
right support network. It could be a daycare. You know,
there's lots of different ways to find that support, but
it is I think fundamental as a working parent to
(11:51):
figure out what is it you think you need and
be okay with the fact that you're going to need help.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
This is not something you're expected to do by yourself. Yeah,
it really is.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
I mean, there's a lot to take on, and so
I was always very conscious of the fact that it
wasn't just going to be you know, me raising Grace
that I need I needed help, and so, you know,
I really leaned on a lot of different people in
many different ways. And I say that I had a
wonderful group of working mom friends, but you know, quite asty,
they weren't doing their own juggling act. And I had
(12:22):
some really close stay at home mom friends and they
were the ones that you know, when Grace need to
be picked up at school and you know I was
in London or whatever the case.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
I mean, they were the ones that said, I've got her,
no problem, don't worry.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
And so I think that's something just knowing you have
a group of people there for you. But it can
come in various shapes and forms in different relationships. It's
just a matter of you figuring out what you think
you need and then having that conversation of the expectation
that you're you're going to lean.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
On them this career, Sarah, so much time has to
be spent away from your daughter, so much time has
to be spent at the office. There are so many priorities.
And I know you've got your no goz ones, You've
got your bound You've got this, this is this is
not to be touched. I get to prioritize that. But
the one of the things that I hear all the time.
(13:08):
I see it on Instagram, I see it on Facebook,
I see it on TikTok. It's just the mum guilt,
the feeling that I'm not doing enough at home, I'm
not doing enough at work, I'm letting everybody down. Did
you ever experience that do you have any sort of
imposter syndrome around being a parent? How do you manage that?
What advice would you give for parents who are caught
up in the whole mum guilt cycle?
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Yeah, well it's it is. It is a very raal thing,
mum guilt.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
I joked that I was raised Catholics, so it's also
it's like double doubly doubly prevalent prevalent. But now you know,
one of the things I think is important as a
mom or as a working parent is first and foremost
when you have made the decision to have children, and
then you also, in fairness most likely need to work,
and then you're trying to juggle both.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
You have to realize that.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
I have a saying that I used to tell myself,
and it was I'm doing the best thing, okay. And
that was my little mantra that I would tell myself,
because you can always feel like you could be doing
something better. You could be doing something better at work,
you could be doing something better in terms of showing
up for your children or whatever the case may be.
But I would just say, and I would even say
to Grace, Mom's doing the best I can. The reason
(14:16):
I said that is because that for me kind of
helped to not trigger any type of guilt because I knew,
look out the best.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
I can't.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
I can't make myself self feel guilty for the choices
I'm making because at this moment in this you know,
whatever I was trying to focus on, that was that
was what I was, that was the mindset I was
trying to instill in myself, and so I really did
kind of fight any feeling of guilt. I also justin
always knew I wanted to work and have a family,
and it was something I was very committed to. I
(14:46):
was very excited about, and so I went into it
knowing that it was going to be, you know, the
struggling act and I needed to figure it out.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
But it wasn't something that.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
I was going to you know, beat myself up about
once I got into it, because I felt like was
a choice.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
I'd mat I'm thinking about the I'm doing the best
that I can mantra this this piece of advice, and
I look at that. Speaking quite personally here, my oldest
daughter is in a mid twenties. She and her husband
have got a baby girl.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
And.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
She's just gone back to school she's gone back to
school so that she can upskill, she can get some
more qualifications, and she's about to obviously once her education
is completed, juggle even more. As I believe they're planning
on more children. She's going to have a career. She's
got to juggle the like. There's so much going on there,
and I just think the grace that you give yourself,
(15:39):
not as a cop out or as an excuse, because
you're being productive and efficient and you are juggling like
you are keeping those balls in the air, but the
grace that you give yourself around this idea that I
am actually doing the best that I can. It's kind
of the support that we need to give ourselves when
sometimes there isn't anybody else to lean on. I just
I really appreciate that. Now you're an advocate of the
good divorce. Your parents have been married for what like
(16:01):
five decades or something fifty five.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Years actually heading in fifty seven, I think this year
in fifty seven amazing.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
And so you look at that and obviously have a wonderful,
wonderful sense of awe for their relationships, and yet you
advocate for a good divorce. Talk a bit about that
you've written about it quite quite explicitly. In fact, you've
got a book about it. How did you how did
your perspective on healthy relationships evolve going through a divorce
(16:31):
or separation, obviously having a healthy marriage at least at
some point, and having your parents as that model. How
does all this fit together for you?
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Yeah? No, well it is. It's an interesting journey.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
I always say that, you know, you don't get married
with the intent of getting divorced. You know, that's not like, Okay,
when I get married and then when I get divorced,
that's not part of the plan.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
You know.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
And I generally say you don't get divorce for positive reasons.
Usually there's some type of trigger that's led you to that.
But for me, the most important thing to reflect on
is that children don't get to decide that their parents
are getting a divorce, and they're the most significantly impacted.
And to your point, justin my parents were married for
fifty seven years and so happened, right. But I saw
(17:12):
some very ugly divorces among their friend group growing up,
and I saw those and I went at the point
when I realized that we were going to be going
through a divorce I just said to myself, I don't
want that for Grace. I don't want that situation and
the toxicity that can come with the negativity of a divorce.
And so I spoke to my Snabiak's husband and I said, look,
(17:35):
I want to figure out a way will we do
this where Grace isn't collateral damage in this divorce. And
so we just took some very conscious steps along the way,
and from the minute we decided to get a divorce
all the way through. She's graduating in a month and
we will both be at her graduation, you know, with
both of our families, you know, celebrating that milestone in
her life. But it's been a very conscious decision. We
(17:56):
got divorce and she was seven, you know, and so
she had eleven years of living across two homes, which
is a huge thing for a young child to have
to go through.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
And it wasn't something I wanted for her. But we
took a lot of steps over the course of time
to make sure that. I always said I didn't want
the first thing to come out of Graces and how
yours down the road as well, my parents were divorced,
Like I felt like there should be much more commentary
in her life before we get to that fact, it
should be a hopefully a passing statement versus that the statement,
(18:25):
and so we took a lot of different measures to
make sure that we could end up with what we've
called a good divorce.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Sarah, let's move towards conclusion. Your book is called The
Art of the Juggling Act. Clearly you've done plenty of
that bite sized guide for working parents. When you consider
the book they've written and the advice that you put
in there, is there any one thing that is just
your favorite thing to lean on when people say, oh,
tell me about the book or tell me what I
need to do to get this juggling act right. What's
(18:54):
your favorite bit of advice to share with parents around this?
Speaker 3 (18:56):
You know, I think to recognize that everyone's struggling at
is going to be their own unique juggling act, but
also that you're not alone, and to realize, going back
to my point about asking for help, it's also important
to realize that you can compare notes with people around you,
listen to a podcast like here is justin. There's ways
(19:17):
to get support so you don't feel like you are
going through this by yourself and that is something that
we're all trying to figure out. But it's teeking pieces
from various sources and ways of support to then figure
out how you want to manage your juggling act. I
think it's one of the hardest things to realize is
sometimes you feel like you're just in it and you
can't really lift your head up and look around to
(19:39):
see how you can get some help, some points of
inspiration and maybe change some ways that you're doing things.
But that's probably the thing that I'd say is kind
of fundamental to this whole thing.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Sarah Armstrong, thank you so much for taking time out
of your day to spend time with us on that
Bey Family's podcast.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
Thank you so much for having justin to spend time
with you.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Sarah Armstrong is the author of the Art of the
Juggling Act, a bite sized guide for working parents, the
vice president of Global Marketing Operations at Google, and the
proud mum of Grace who is, as you heard, finishing
off her university degree, finishing up at college, getting on
with being an adult herself. Thank you so much for
listening to the Happy Families podcast. Really hope that it
helps you in the decisions that you're making and gives
(20:23):
you the practical, bite size advice that you need to
guide your family to flourishing. The Happy Families podcast is
produced by Justin Rulan from Bridge Media. If you would
like more information and more advice, more help to make
your family happier, visit us at happy families dot com
dot au
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