May 27, 2025 • 11 mins
Is your child’s gaming habit harmless fun—or something more serious? In this episode, Justin and Kylie Coulson share highlights from an eye-opening conversation with Scott Novis, a former Disney and Nintendo gaming executive. They discuss how modern games are designed to hook kids using sophisticated psychological techniques, what parents can do to support healthier habits, and the small shifts that make big differences in digital wellbeing.
KEY POINTS
- The "Hooked Algorithm": Modern games use cues, unpredictable rewards, and psychological manipulation to drive compulsive use—especially among kids.
- Addiction Is by Design: Notifications, in-game incentives, and persistent online features are engineered to steal attention and limit agency.
- Console Games vs. Online Games: Games played offline on a console with a defined endpoint are less addictive than online, never-ending games.
- Digital Detox Strategies: Removing screens, increasing nature time, and focusing on physical activity can reset unhealthy patterns.
- Agency is the Key: Healthy gaming promotes a sense of control and mastery. Unhealthy games rob kids of their agency and drive compulsive behaviour.
- Warning Signs: Sleep disturbances, sneaky screen use, emotional outbursts, or secretive behaviours may signal an unhealthy gaming relationship.
- Parents Aren’t Immune: Even adults struggle with screen control—our own detox experiences can inform how we guide our kids.
QUOTE OF THE EPISODE
“Are these games reinforcing their sense of agency—or deleting it?”
— Scott Novis
RESOURCES MENTIONED
- Upcoming full interview with Scott Novis (drops Saturday)
- Book: Stolen Focus by Johann Hari (referenced)
- HappyFamilies.com.au – screen-time webinars and parenting resources
ACTION STEPS FOR PARENTS
- Know the Hook: Understand how modern games manipulate attention and behaviour using psychological rewards.
- Audit the Games: Prioritise offline games with defined endings. Avoid always-on, online, in-app-reward-driven games.
- Turn Off Notifications: Disable alerts to reduce temptation and constant interruption.
- Create Tech-Free Routines: Set clear screen bedtimes and keep devices out of bedrooms.
- Watch for Warning Signs: Pay attention to sleep issues, irritability, or secretive behaviours.
- Detox Together: Plan regular family screen detoxes—go offline, get into nature, and rediscover agency.
- Talk Openly: Ask your kids how games make them feel—listen without judgement and create a collaborative plan for balance.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Is it possible for kids to have a healthy obsession
with a game? How do we create smooth transitions away
from screens without daily meltdowns? Are there any specific tools
that we can implement to end screen time peacefully? Gooday,
Welcome to the Happy Families Podcast, Real parenting Solutions every
(00:29):
day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
We are Justin and Kylie Coulson.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
And today on the pod, a quick Insight, a sampler
of an interview that.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
I did with a guy by the name of Scott Novus.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Scott is a former vice president at the Walt Disney Company.
He has led the Nintendo Center of Excellence. He's passionate
about helping families navigate the modern world of video games
and screen time. And Kylie, with three kids and decades
helping parents stop the daily battles over video games and screens.
(01:03):
This was one of the most invigorating conversations about screens
that we've ever had on the podcast. And I thought
today you and I would do a quick preview about
what's coming up on Saturday, just so people know how
important is that they tune in and check it out.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Okay, I'm a little bit confused. You've just told me
that he works with screens, but we're having a conversation
about they're not really good.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
For actually, right, So he's been a game developer with
Disney and with Nintendo and done all this incredible work,
and yeah, that's exactly right. He's got a whole lot
of rules and ideas around how our kids can use
games in safe ways that minimize the downsides and fully
take advantage of the upsides. It was such a great discussion,
really provocative, really interesting, and I genuinely learned some stuff.
(01:48):
Let me share one of the things that he said.
We talked about addiction and what he calls and I've
never heard this language before. The hooked cycle or the
hooked algorithm that many game develop is a using today.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Why does every app you install on your phone ask
to turn on notifications because it's the beginning of the
hook cycle. You've got to que you to do something.
Then you're going to do a thing. Then we're going
to give you and this is the technical term a
variable ratio reward. It's unpredictable and it's tuned to be
just the right amount to hold your attention, get you
(02:24):
your dopamine, hit that never let you master the algorithm.
Then we're going to move you over to what's called investment,
and if we're lucky, what will happen is you will
start self culling like a cigarette attic, reaching for a cigarette.
And that's the behavior that is absolutely driving kids and
parents and everyone bonkers. It's not a game anymore. It's
(02:48):
not entertainment. It is how much money can we make
stealing people's attention. And guess whose attention is most vulnerable
to being stolen? Your kids, Kylie.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Essentially, what he's saying is that there is a way
that you can have kids involved in games that is
not disruptive, is not harmful, and actually facilitates good social experience,
problem solving and just genuine fun. But there are some
game developers and gaming houses that have come up with
solutions that genuinely addict our kids, that really just reach
(03:23):
out and put that hook into them and hold on.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
So I never had a gaming console or anything like
that growing up.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
I did, which is why our kids don't, because I
was addicted.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
I was absolutely addicted.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
But I would go to my friend's place and every
now and again I'd have a game of Pac Man
or is it Mario Brothers.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Yeah, yeah, you're you're doing really well here, honey, you
really know your stuff.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
And we'd sit down and we'd have a session. But
once we'd finished, there was nothing that reminded us about
that session. There was no notification that kind of popped
up or screamed at us to say, hey, I'm here,
give me some more attention, like what our kids are
now dealing with. And I love the way he talked
about this hook cycle. The very first thing you do.
(04:09):
I recognize it as he was saying it. So often
you download an app and it's like to make sure
your notifications are on so we can send your messages.
And I hate it. Yeah, yeah, I really hate it.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
You know how annoying I am though, because I turn
all my notifications off and then nothing can contact me
and I don't know what's going on. But from my
peace of mind and for my stress levels, it's so
much better. I just say, no, you're not sending me
in notifications at all. Although I try not to download
a lot of the apps that are trying.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
To hook me.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
This guy, Scott, he shared so many great strategies to
help us to navigate this. I don't want to give
away the whole interview, and he says it way better
than me. But he said it's great if you can
run a game like it's fun, and if they're doing
it in a balanced way, then it's going to enhance their.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Lives, not detract from their lives.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
What are the things that he's is, don't don't play
games that are connected to the internet. Instead play games
with a console on your Telly so that there's a
defined end time.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Also that well, I guess that was my experience growing
up when I would go to my friend's place. That's
exactly why.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Well, when you turn it off, it's gone, like you
can put it back in the cupboard and it's not
constantly screaming at you, come play me again, Come play
me again. You've got free rewards, you've got free lives,
you've got this, and you've got that. You've got infinite
lives to the next thirty minutes. If you want to
do this challenge and it drags you in and forces
you to play at times that are not convenient, why
because it suits the game developers and they get to
hook you, addict you pull you in. It's really really
(05:39):
fascinating what he's got to say about and there's so
much more that he said.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
I love how he talks about this stolen attention. Literally
they're stealing.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Well, you're currently reading from us Johann Hurry's stolen focus. Similar,
similar concept. These developers are really out too, genuinely, the mendacity.
It's so inndacious. They are literally out to get you.
That's what they're doing. They say they're not, but that's
what they're doing.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
After the break.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
One more thing that I just love that he had
to say about how we can break addiction cycles. Scott
Novos is a former vice president at the Walt Disney Corporation.
He also did a whole lot of stuff with Nintendo
for a number of years, and he's all about how
(06:26):
we can end video game time without fighting master screen
time boundaries, select safe game options. I asked him about roadblocks,
about Fortnite and about Minecraft. I just asked for a
yes or a no. I said, I don't want you
to tell me anything, just yes or no. I said roadblocks.
He gave me an answer. I said Fortnite, he gave
(06:46):
me an answer. Minecraft. He gave me an answer. And
I can't stop smiling because of the way that he
answered each of those questions, that's going to happen on Saturday.
If you really want to know what the guy who
develops these games or similar games is all about, he'll
be able to tell you that on Saturday.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
But callie.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
The second question that I asked him was what are
the rules for screens? Like tips for digital detoxes for
kids and gaming addiction.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Here's what he had to say.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
If you detox right, take it away, get them out,
get them moving, get them out in a natural environment,
get them into nature, get them to decompress. It's like
taking their phones away. Man, it makes a huge difference.
Some of the tips are make sure your phone has
a bedtime, no screens in the bedroom at night. Lots
of parents think, oh, they turn the screens off, Like no,
(07:34):
they don't think which to you fall sit and they
get up and go play again. And teachers just ask
your teachers, it's my kid palling a sleeping class. That's
your single biggest clue that kids are sneaking more game time.
I have a friend who found their son had a
burner phone so they could be online with games. A
burner phone, Are you kidding me? Like the links they're
(07:55):
going to because they're hooked are just crazy. So part
of it is getting them away from that and then
getting them into an environment where they've got control. That's
the biggest thing is are these games either reinforcing their
sense of agency or these games completely deleting it? And
step one is get rid of the games that are
(08:17):
deleting their sense of agency. Then walk yourself through the progression.
And if you get to the end of your rope
they really can't let it go, then you probably need help.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Keyword here healthy gaming facilitates a sense of agency. Unhealthy
gaming destroys agency.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I know what we've done podcasts on this previously. We've
talked about the extremes. You know, boys who sit in
their rooms for hours and hours on end. They haven't eaten,
they haven't even gone to the bathroom.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
We hear these stories or they start screaming and punching
walls when they're told to get off like this compulsive use.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
Yeah, and having just had an experience where you and
I literally took ourselves away from the outside world and
had our very own detox.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Yeah, like almost almost didn't touch the phones for a
week except to take a photo or two.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
I would never have imagined just how freeing it felt.
The word that comes to my mind was I was
dreading coming home.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
And how long when we got home did it take
until we felt normal again? Because coming back to all
of this was so much, like it's so much weeks
of challenge and difficulty and exhaustion because of the lack
of agency we experience because these devices are so well
designed to keep on drawing us in. I actually hate it,
(09:45):
but I can't put it down, and I'm watching myself
do it and thinking, I teach this stuff, I understand
the science, I know what's going on inside.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
My brain, and it's still getting me.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
What chance of our kids got this whole conversation about kids,
agency and device. I don't know if this is the
conversation Scott thought he'd be having, but he said at
the end of it, once we hung up, he said,
that was probably one of the most provocative and maybe
even adversarial conversations I've ever had. He said, you really
ask hard questions. But he said that was so invigorating,
(10:15):
like that's got to be a helpful conversation for people,
which I said, I didn't try to.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Make an enemy of you. He said, no, no, no, No,
enemy's here like it was great.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
But you're really asking hard questions because and I'm asking
the questions because these are the things that parents are
telling me they're grappling with.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
This is what I'm grappling with, right. I mean, I'm asking.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
On behalf of everyone who's listening, but I'm kind of
asking for me because this is so hard. Anyway, find
out more with this brilliant conversation that I've had with
Scott Novs this weekend. We'll drop it on Saturday for
your weekend listening pleasure. You can listen whenever it suits you.
You've got two days to get through it, and I
think you go to love it. The Happy Family's podcast
(10:53):
is produced by Justin Roland from Bridge Media. For more
information about making your family happier, you can visit us
a Happy families dot com dot you and check out
some of my webinars about keeping kids in healthy relationships
with their screens Happy families dot com dot au
Is it possible for kids to have a healthy obsession
with a game? How do we create smooth transitions away
from screens without daily meltdowns? Are there any specific tools
that we can implement to end screen time peacefully? Gooday,
Welcome to the Happy Families Podcast, Real parenting Solutions every
(00:29):
day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
We are Justin and Kylie Coulson.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
And today on the pod, a quick Insight, a sampler
of an interview that.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
I did with a guy by the name of Scott Novus.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Scott is a former vice president at the Walt Disney Company.
He has led the Nintendo Center of Excellence. He's passionate
about helping families navigate the modern world of video games
and screen time. And Kylie, with three kids and decades
helping parents stop the daily battles over video games and screens.
(01:03):
This was one of the most invigorating conversations about screens
that we've ever had on the podcast. And I thought
today you and I would do a quick preview about
what's coming up on Saturday, just so people know how
important is that they tune in and check it out.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Okay, I'm a little bit confused. You've just told me
that he works with screens, but we're having a conversation
about they're not really good.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
For actually, right, So he's been a game developer with
Disney and with Nintendo and done all this incredible work,
and yeah, that's exactly right. He's got a whole lot
of rules and ideas around how our kids can use
games in safe ways that minimize the downsides and fully
take advantage of the upsides. It was such a great discussion,
really provocative, really interesting, and I genuinely learned some stuff.
(01:48):
Let me share one of the things that he said.
We talked about addiction and what he calls and I've
never heard this language before. The hooked cycle or the
hooked algorithm that many game develop is a using today.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Why does every app you install on your phone ask
to turn on notifications because it's the beginning of the
hook cycle. You've got to que you to do something.
Then you're going to do a thing. Then we're going
to give you and this is the technical term a
variable ratio reward. It's unpredictable and it's tuned to be
just the right amount to hold your attention, get you
(02:24):
your dopamine, hit that never let you master the algorithm.
Then we're going to move you over to what's called investment,
and if we're lucky, what will happen is you will
start self culling like a cigarette attic, reaching for a cigarette.
And that's the behavior that is absolutely driving kids and
parents and everyone bonkers. It's not a game anymore. It's
(02:48):
not entertainment. It is how much money can we make
stealing people's attention. And guess whose attention is most vulnerable
to being stolen? Your kids, Kylie.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Essentially, what he's saying is that there is a way
that you can have kids involved in games that is
not disruptive, is not harmful, and actually facilitates good social experience,
problem solving and just genuine fun. But there are some
game developers and gaming houses that have come up with
solutions that genuinely addict our kids, that really just reach
(03:23):
out and put that hook into them and hold on.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
So I never had a gaming console or anything like
that growing up.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
I did, which is why our kids don't, because I
was addicted.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
I was absolutely addicted.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
But I would go to my friend's place and every
now and again I'd have a game of Pac Man
or is it Mario Brothers.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Yeah, yeah, you're you're doing really well here, honey, you
really know your stuff.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
And we'd sit down and we'd have a session. But
once we'd finished, there was nothing that reminded us about
that session. There was no notification that kind of popped
up or screamed at us to say, hey, I'm here,
give me some more attention, like what our kids are
now dealing with. And I love the way he talked
about this hook cycle. The very first thing you do.
(04:09):
I recognize it as he was saying it. So often
you download an app and it's like to make sure
your notifications are on so we can send your messages.
And I hate it. Yeah, yeah, I really hate it.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
You know how annoying I am though, because I turn
all my notifications off and then nothing can contact me
and I don't know what's going on. But from my
peace of mind and for my stress levels, it's so
much better. I just say, no, you're not sending me
in notifications at all. Although I try not to download
a lot of the apps that are trying.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
To hook me.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
This guy, Scott, he shared so many great strategies to
help us to navigate this. I don't want to give
away the whole interview, and he says it way better
than me. But he said it's great if you can
run a game like it's fun, and if they're doing
it in a balanced way, then it's going to enhance their.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Lives, not detract from their lives.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
What are the things that he's is, don't don't play
games that are connected to the internet. Instead play games
with a console on your Telly so that there's a
defined end time.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Also that well, I guess that was my experience growing
up when I would go to my friend's place. That's
exactly why.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Well, when you turn it off, it's gone, like you
can put it back in the cupboard and it's not
constantly screaming at you, come play me again, Come play
me again. You've got free rewards, you've got free lives,
you've got this, and you've got that. You've got infinite
lives to the next thirty minutes. If you want to
do this challenge and it drags you in and forces
you to play at times that are not convenient, why
because it suits the game developers and they get to
hook you, addict you pull you in. It's really really
(05:39):
fascinating what he's got to say about and there's so
much more that he said.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
I love how he talks about this stolen attention. Literally
they're stealing.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Well, you're currently reading from us Johann Hurry's stolen focus. Similar,
similar concept. These developers are really out too, genuinely, the mendacity.
It's so inndacious. They are literally out to get you.
That's what they're doing. They say they're not, but that's
what they're doing.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
After the break.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
One more thing that I just love that he had
to say about how we can break addiction cycles. Scott
Novos is a former vice president at the Walt Disney Corporation.
He also did a whole lot of stuff with Nintendo
for a number of years, and he's all about how
(06:26):
we can end video game time without fighting master screen
time boundaries, select safe game options. I asked him about roadblocks,
about Fortnite and about Minecraft. I just asked for a
yes or a no. I said, I don't want you
to tell me anything, just yes or no. I said roadblocks.
He gave me an answer. I said Fortnite, he gave
(06:46):
me an answer. Minecraft. He gave me an answer. And
I can't stop smiling because of the way that he
answered each of those questions, that's going to happen on Saturday.
If you really want to know what the guy who
develops these games or similar games is all about, he'll
be able to tell you that on Saturday.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
But callie.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
The second question that I asked him was what are
the rules for screens? Like tips for digital detoxes for
kids and gaming addiction.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Here's what he had to say.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
If you detox right, take it away, get them out,
get them moving, get them out in a natural environment,
get them into nature, get them to decompress. It's like
taking their phones away. Man, it makes a huge difference.
Some of the tips are make sure your phone has
a bedtime, no screens in the bedroom at night. Lots
of parents think, oh, they turn the screens off, Like no,
(07:34):
they don't think which to you fall sit and they
get up and go play again. And teachers just ask
your teachers, it's my kid palling a sleeping class. That's
your single biggest clue that kids are sneaking more game time.
I have a friend who found their son had a
burner phone so they could be online with games. A
burner phone, Are you kidding me? Like the links they're
(07:55):
going to because they're hooked are just crazy. So part
of it is getting them away from that and then
getting them into an environment where they've got control. That's
the biggest thing is are these games either reinforcing their
sense of agency or these games completely deleting it? And
step one is get rid of the games that are
(08:17):
deleting their sense of agency. Then walk yourself through the progression.
And if you get to the end of your rope
they really can't let it go, then you probably need help.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Keyword here healthy gaming facilitates a sense of agency. Unhealthy
gaming destroys agency.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I know what we've done podcasts on this previously. We've
talked about the extremes. You know, boys who sit in
their rooms for hours and hours on end. They haven't eaten,
they haven't even gone to the bathroom.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
We hear these stories or they start screaming and punching
walls when they're told to get off like this compulsive use.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
Yeah, and having just had an experience where you and
I literally took ourselves away from the outside world and
had our very own detox.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Yeah, like almost almost didn't touch the phones for a
week except to take a photo or two.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
I would never have imagined just how freeing it felt.
The word that comes to my mind was I was
dreading coming home.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
And how long when we got home did it take
until we felt normal again? Because coming back to all
of this was so much, like it's so much weeks
of challenge and difficulty and exhaustion because of the lack
of agency we experience because these devices are so well
designed to keep on drawing us in. I actually hate it,
(09:45):
but I can't put it down, and I'm watching myself
do it and thinking, I teach this stuff, I understand
the science, I know what's going on inside.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
My brain, and it's still getting me.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
What chance of our kids got this whole conversation about kids,
agency and device. I don't know if this is the
conversation Scott thought he'd be having, but he said at
the end of it, once we hung up, he said,
that was probably one of the most provocative and maybe
even adversarial conversations I've ever had. He said, you really
ask hard questions. But he said that was so invigorating,
(10:15):
like that's got to be a helpful conversation for people,
which I said, I didn't try to.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Make an enemy of you. He said, no, no, no, No,
enemy's here like it was great.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
But you're really asking hard questions because and I'm asking
the questions because these are the things that parents are
telling me they're grappling with.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
This is what I'm grappling with, right. I mean, I'm asking.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
On behalf of everyone who's listening, but I'm kind of
asking for me because this is so hard. Anyway, find
out more with this brilliant conversation that I've had with
Scott Novs this weekend. We'll drop it on Saturday for
your weekend listening pleasure. You can listen whenever it suits you.
You've got two days to get through it, and I
think you go to love it. The Happy Family's podcast
(10:53):
is produced by Justin Roland from Bridge Media. For more
information about making your family happier, you can visit us
a Happy families dot com dot you and check out
some of my webinars about keeping kids in healthy relationships
with their screens Happy families dot com dot au
Popular Podcasts
Boysober
Have you ever wondered what life might be like if you stopped worrying about being wanted, and focused on understanding what you actually want? That was the question Hope Woodard asked herself after a string of situationships inspired her to take a break from sex and dating. She went "boysober," a personal concept that sparked a global movement among women looking to prioritize themselves over men. Now, Hope is looking to expand the ways we explore our relationship to relationships. Taking a bold, unfiltered look into modern love, romance, and self-discovery, Boysober will dive into messy stories about dating, sex, love, friendship, and breaking generational patterns—all with humor, vulnerability, and a fresh perspective.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com