April 16, 2024 • 14 mins
Warning: sensitive content
Pregnancy and infant loss are such important yet rarely discussed topics. Author Lellie Lopter emphasises the importance of creating a safe environment for these conversations to take place, as well as the need to include children in the healing journey.
In this episode:
- My Brother Born Sleeping by Lellie Lopter
- Supporting families
- Coping with different beliefs about infant loss
- Curiosity from children and how to answer their questions
- Pink Elephant Foundation
- Rainbow babies
- Making room for conversation
- Processing trauma, grief, and loss
- Red Nose Day
Email your questions and comments to podcasts@happyfamilies.com.au
Find out more about joining THE QUEST at our website
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the
time poor parent who just answers Now. On the Happy
Families Podcast, we tackle some tricky topics from time to time,
and today is one of those days.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
My name is docs Justin Coulson. I'm delighted to introduce
to you today the author of the well known rhyme
time books, somebody named lely Loptera. That is of course
a pen name, a pseudonym, but lellly Loptera has a
brand new book out that we really think is worthy
of some discussion and some exploration in today's podcast. According
(00:41):
to publishers who won't publish the book because of the
subject matter, it is a new, flawless, almost perfect children's book.
The book is called My Brother Born Sleeping. I think
that I might struggle to get through this in because
I'm getting weepy just introducing the author in the name
(01:03):
of the book. By now you probably know what it's about,
so I will just share a quick content warning that
some families may have been through some trauma around this,
or may have young children who may not understand what
we're going to talk about, and parent advisory may be
advised for our conversation about miscarriage and still born babies. Today,
Lellly Lotta is a mum to three kiddos, one who
(01:26):
didn't survive pregnancy, and Lely joins me. Right now, Lely,
tell me about your family, particularly your baby who didn't
make it to be with us.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Now. So, I was very young when I lost my baby.
I lost my baby, I lost my ovary, I lost
my relationship all at the same time. And I think
because of how I had become pregnant, people kept telling
me how lucky I was, and certainly during that time,
I didn't feel lucky at all, quite the opposite. And
(01:57):
I went to pieces, absolutely went to pieces, and rightly
so because I was allowed to go to pieces, because
I was on my own, I was young, I was
able to grieve in a way that was comfortable for me.
But then, years later, when my sister went through a
still born she had two kids already, and watching her
trying to keep it together, when I knew in my
(02:18):
heart how much she was grieving, how devastated she was,
and trying to be strong for her, her kids, her
niece and her nephew, it was unbelievably challenging to try
and support her during that and I had my kids
asking questions, and she had her kids, my niece and nephew.
(02:41):
That everyone had a different say, a different reason behind
what had happened. And my experience influenced how I had
those conversations with my children and how involved my children
were in that process and asking those questions. And children
want to explore subjects naturally, they're just naturally curious little creatures.
(03:03):
And when a subject is hard to speak about, and
when you're going through that grieving process, then shutting kids
down isn't helpful for either the kids or the parents.
And this book was written as a way of trying
to start those conversations as a family about when a
baby is born sleeping, why that might be. It's not
a medical tone, it's not a cure al. It's just
(03:27):
a conversation starter so that people can have those conversations
around how is the best to grieve as a family.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Lily, let's zoom all the way out for just a second.
How common is still birth? How common is miscarriage?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
So still there's over two million babies around the around
the world that are born sleeping every year, and there's
over five thousand just in Australia every year. Miscarriage is
one of those statistics that's very very difficult to pinpoint.
It's estimated it being eight to ten times more than
what still birth is, but there's a lot of data
(04:06):
around it. It may be much more than that because
people suffer in silence, they don't seek medical attention, or
the medical attention is it's glossed over, and the stats
just aren't reported in some countries. So it's very difficult
to get a global a global take on how many
babies actually don't make it.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
I might just dive in here and ask for a definition.
There may be some people who are listening who are
not familiar or have just not encountered still birth. I
think the percentage of people who wouldn't know would be
quite low, but it's still worth just spending a moment
and defining what that is medically.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
So I think medically a still born baby is one
that's born over a certain weight or over a certain
number of weeks. Off the top of my head, I
think it's twenty four weeks. And Israelian government actually supports
families to a certain point, but there's very little support
for miscarriage or for early pregnancy loss, and there's now
(05:01):
a foundation called Pink Elephant who do take on some
of that emotional support for those families and for those
women experiencing that. Like I said, I was so young,
I had no support during when it happened to me.
I very quiet, didn't reach out, didn't seek the support
that I definitely needed. And it really wasn't until I
(05:23):
had my recent hysterectomy that I even started to process
that trauma. And bringing this book into the world with
such a cathartic experience because it helped me not just
to process what had happened to myself and to my family,
my extended family with my sister and her kids, but
also looking at how I could include other people. So
(05:44):
all of the illustrators involved also have their connection with
stillborn or pregnancy loss or I've got some of the
illustrators are rainbow babies themselves. So rainbow baby is a
term for a child that is born after a pregnancy
or infant loss. And you know, one of the illustrators
(06:04):
is her mom's rainbow baby, one is their mom is
a rainbow baby. One has Annie's and Arnie's that they
never got to meet because they died in infancy. One
has helped a friend through infant loss themselves. Very recently,
I've got people that I've had miscarriages, people that I've
(06:25):
had steelborns. And when I put the call out on
social media to ask if there would be any illustrators
interested in helping me bring this book to publication, I
put a question in that sort of survey asking if
they had a connection to the subject and what that
connection was. And I was absolutely overwhelmed with the stories
(06:48):
of people and the connections and how how many people
were affected by this just in that little pool of
talent that were illustrators, and the prevalence are much larger
than what people realize because it goes it's so unreported,
and people don't talk about it, even amongst their friends.
They don't talk about it.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
While you were talking Leli Lotta, I just quickly googled,
and the World Health Organization indicates that stillbirth occurs once
every sixteen seconds. That's what the two million plus still
born babies per year equates to one every sixteen seconds.
So when you say that this is happening a lot
more than we realize, I think that that statistic gives
(07:31):
us a sense of the enormity of this challenge. Kylie
and I have a wonderful couple of friends who they
had several children when they also experienced loss through still birth,
and I still remember watching I thought they handled it
so well. It's such a hard thing to go through.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
So what did you notice when that happened.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
I was actually really confronted by it. Initially, this was
many years ago. I don't know if i'd even done
my study at this point, or maybe I was going
through my study experience. And they have They had a
photographer coming in and take photos of them holding their
precious baby. They've got a family portrait with the whole
family there with I think they had maybe three or
(08:16):
four other kids at the time, maybe even five, I
can't quite remember. They have a large family and they
were all standing there holding the baby. And as an
outsider who hadn't thought about it from any kind of
an empathic perspective, I found it really confronting and quite macabre.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Absolutely, But as.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
I reflected, we walk into their home and we see
a family photo of their family holding their baby, and
it's all of them, And I think, in hindsight, as
much as it seemed a little bit difficult for me
to process as an outsider at the time. It opens
up conversations. It allows the family to talk about their
(08:57):
sibling who was lost, who didn't survive, And I can't
help but think that it must be so reassuring for them,
not just in the moment, but ongoingly as they have
friends and acquaintances walk into their home and say, I
didn't know you had that many children, and they have
the opportunity to say, actually, we lost one. That baby
was still born. It's so I presume, so healing for
(09:22):
them as they process that consistently.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yeah, and often it's not until we've become parents ourselves
that we can understand all of those nuances that you know,
the grieving process changes when you become a parent and
you include the family in that process. And just sixteen seconds,
if it's every sixteen seconds. It took me ten years
to be able to talk about what happened to me,
(09:48):
and twenty years to bring this book out, and it
was it's flabagasted me that you know, every sixteen seconds,
and for that family, they're able to have that conversation.
That's one of the things that really is recommended for
stillbirth is to help the families grieve. Some hospitals actually
have cuddle coots now where you can take the baby
(10:10):
home and have that experience of bringing the baby into
the nursery. And the facilities that are available now, and
the support that is available now, those networks that are
available now, it changes the conversation, and it starts a
conversation so learly.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
The book is called My Brother Born Sleeping. Part of
me wants to ask you to tell me all about
the book, but I think the conversation we've had so
far is sufficient to give parents a strong sense of
what this is about. As part of you publishing this book,
you've developed a special relationship with Red Nose Day. Why
don't you tell me a bit about that and how
(10:47):
purchasing the book will make a difference in the lives
of parents who are suffering and struggling with loss.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Absolutely well, the book was just one part of the process,
or one part of the project, and the project brought
to together not just the physical book that parents would
be able to access it and read to their children
when they need it, but also a video which is
available free online on YouTube immediately, so as soon as
the family is put in the situation of needing to
have this conversation. That video is there, it's illustrated, it's
(11:18):
read by children, so the children that need the message
are getting that message or getting the information from other children. Beautiful, absolutely,
and it's the project incorporates both. But when we're putting
it together, it was kind of an oversight that we've
realized that this book might accidentally make some money, and
that was never the intention. The intention was to create
(11:39):
a resource. And then when we realized that it might
make some money, then we've partnered with Red Nose to
make sure that every cent from every sale goes to
them to support them. They fund research, they support families.
The work that they do is just incredible and the
network that they have in the support that they provide
(11:59):
to people, it's not just to the parents. They also
provide support to families and they provide resources that can
help people like yourself as a friend of someone who
has gone through infant loss, so that you could see
you know why the family might take that time to
have those.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
And that's the thing, isn't it. Lily is not just
for the people who are suffering. It's for people who
are friends of those who are going through it, so
we're not.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
How to support exactly. And one of the illustrators that
was what drew them towards the project to begin with.
They're from the LGBTQI community and one of their friends
had just recently suffered are still born and not knowing
how to approach those conversations or what to do, and
(12:46):
being a part of this project, they were able to
then start those conversations and create an environment where it
was safe to talk about this subject, and those conversations
they go such a long way.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
If people want to know more, where can they see
the video and where can they find my brother born sleeping?
Speaker 2 (13:05):
So either the Lilyloto website or www. Dot the Knowledgecenter
dot com dot au. And the video is just available
on YouTube. And like I said, it's free, it's available,
and it's a resource. So even if you know, if
you know someone that has gone through a pregnancy or
infant loss, and just send them the link and say,
I know that you're hurting. There's nothing I can do,
(13:26):
but I found this and it might help. And sometimes
just that reaching out can be enough to start that
conversation which will start the healing process. So we can
get more people involved in the healing process. Then it's
one of those things that it's never going to be
fully healed, but being in a safe environment where you
can talk about what has happened, how it's happened, and
(13:49):
include children in that journey of healing as well.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Lilylotta is the author of the well known Rhyme Time
books and a new and really special book called My
Brother Born Sleeping. All proceeds from the book, as mentioned
go to Red Nose Day. Lellie, thanks so much for
joining me on the Happy Families podcast to talk about
this really important and not often talked about topic.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Thank you so much, Justin.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
The Happy Families Podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from
Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. If you
would like more information, our show notes are full of
as much as we can cram in there about what
Lellly Lotta has done with this book, My Brother Born Sleeping.
Please visit our show notes for more or check out
Happy Families dot com dot au for resources to make
(14:36):
your family happier.
It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the
time poor parent who just answers Now. On the Happy
Families Podcast, we tackle some tricky topics from time to time,
and today is one of those days.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
My name is docs Justin Coulson. I'm delighted to introduce
to you today the author of the well known rhyme
time books, somebody named lely Loptera. That is of course
a pen name, a pseudonym, but lellly Loptera has a
brand new book out that we really think is worthy
of some discussion and some exploration in today's podcast. According
(00:41):
to publishers who won't publish the book because of the
subject matter, it is a new, flawless, almost perfect children's book.
The book is called My Brother Born Sleeping. I think
that I might struggle to get through this in because
I'm getting weepy just introducing the author in the name
(01:03):
of the book. By now you probably know what it's about,
so I will just share a quick content warning that
some families may have been through some trauma around this,
or may have young children who may not understand what
we're going to talk about, and parent advisory may be
advised for our conversation about miscarriage and still born babies. Today,
Lellly Lotta is a mum to three kiddos, one who
(01:26):
didn't survive pregnancy, and Lely joins me. Right now, Lely,
tell me about your family, particularly your baby who didn't
make it to be with us.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Now. So, I was very young when I lost my baby.
I lost my baby, I lost my ovary, I lost
my relationship all at the same time. And I think
because of how I had become pregnant, people kept telling
me how lucky I was, and certainly during that time,
I didn't feel lucky at all, quite the opposite. And
(01:57):
I went to pieces, absolutely went to pieces, and rightly
so because I was allowed to go to pieces, because
I was on my own, I was young, I was
able to grieve in a way that was comfortable for me.
But then, years later, when my sister went through a
still born she had two kids already, and watching her
trying to keep it together, when I knew in my
(02:18):
heart how much she was grieving, how devastated she was,
and trying to be strong for her, her kids, her
niece and her nephew, it was unbelievably challenging to try
and support her during that and I had my kids
asking questions, and she had her kids, my niece and nephew.
(02:41):
That everyone had a different say, a different reason behind
what had happened. And my experience influenced how I had
those conversations with my children and how involved my children
were in that process and asking those questions. And children
want to explore subjects naturally, they're just naturally curious little creatures.
(03:03):
And when a subject is hard to speak about, and
when you're going through that grieving process, then shutting kids
down isn't helpful for either the kids or the parents.
And this book was written as a way of trying
to start those conversations as a family about when a
baby is born sleeping, why that might be. It's not
a medical tone, it's not a cure al. It's just
(03:27):
a conversation starter so that people can have those conversations
around how is the best to grieve as a family.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Lily, let's zoom all the way out for just a second.
How common is still birth? How common is miscarriage?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
So still there's over two million babies around the around
the world that are born sleeping every year, and there's
over five thousand just in Australia every year. Miscarriage is
one of those statistics that's very very difficult to pinpoint.
It's estimated it being eight to ten times more than
what still birth is, but there's a lot of data
(04:06):
around it. It may be much more than that because
people suffer in silence, they don't seek medical attention, or
the medical attention is it's glossed over, and the stats
just aren't reported in some countries. So it's very difficult
to get a global a global take on how many
babies actually don't make it.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
I might just dive in here and ask for a definition.
There may be some people who are listening who are
not familiar or have just not encountered still birth. I
think the percentage of people who wouldn't know would be
quite low, but it's still worth just spending a moment
and defining what that is medically.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
So I think medically a still born baby is one
that's born over a certain weight or over a certain
number of weeks. Off the top of my head, I
think it's twenty four weeks. And Israelian government actually supports
families to a certain point, but there's very little support
for miscarriage or for early pregnancy loss, and there's now
(05:01):
a foundation called Pink Elephant who do take on some
of that emotional support for those families and for those
women experiencing that. Like I said, I was so young,
I had no support during when it happened to me.
I very quiet, didn't reach out, didn't seek the support
that I definitely needed. And it really wasn't until I
(05:23):
had my recent hysterectomy that I even started to process
that trauma. And bringing this book into the world with
such a cathartic experience because it helped me not just
to process what had happened to myself and to my family,
my extended family with my sister and her kids, but
also looking at how I could include other people. So
(05:44):
all of the illustrators involved also have their connection with
stillborn or pregnancy loss or I've got some of the
illustrators are rainbow babies themselves. So rainbow baby is a
term for a child that is born after a pregnancy
or infant loss. And you know, one of the illustrators
(06:04):
is her mom's rainbow baby, one is their mom is
a rainbow baby. One has Annie's and Arnie's that they
never got to meet because they died in infancy. One
has helped a friend through infant loss themselves. Very recently,
I've got people that I've had miscarriages, people that I've
(06:25):
had steelborns. And when I put the call out on
social media to ask if there would be any illustrators
interested in helping me bring this book to publication, I
put a question in that sort of survey asking if
they had a connection to the subject and what that
connection was. And I was absolutely overwhelmed with the stories
(06:48):
of people and the connections and how how many people
were affected by this just in that little pool of
talent that were illustrators, and the prevalence are much larger
than what people realize because it goes it's so unreported,
and people don't talk about it, even amongst their friends.
They don't talk about it.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
While you were talking Leli Lotta, I just quickly googled,
and the World Health Organization indicates that stillbirth occurs once
every sixteen seconds. That's what the two million plus still
born babies per year equates to one every sixteen seconds.
So when you say that this is happening a lot
more than we realize, I think that that statistic gives
(07:31):
us a sense of the enormity of this challenge. Kylie
and I have a wonderful couple of friends who they
had several children when they also experienced loss through still birth,
and I still remember watching I thought they handled it
so well. It's such a hard thing to go through.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
So what did you notice when that happened.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
I was actually really confronted by it. Initially, this was
many years ago. I don't know if i'd even done
my study at this point, or maybe I was going
through my study experience. And they have They had a
photographer coming in and take photos of them holding their
precious baby. They've got a family portrait with the whole
family there with I think they had maybe three or
(08:16):
four other kids at the time, maybe even five, I
can't quite remember. They have a large family and they
were all standing there holding the baby. And as an
outsider who hadn't thought about it from any kind of
an empathic perspective, I found it really confronting and quite macabre.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Absolutely, But as.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
I reflected, we walk into their home and we see
a family photo of their family holding their baby, and
it's all of them, And I think, in hindsight, as
much as it seemed a little bit difficult for me
to process as an outsider at the time. It opens
up conversations. It allows the family to talk about their
(08:57):
sibling who was lost, who didn't survive, And I can't
help but think that it must be so reassuring for them,
not just in the moment, but ongoingly as they have
friends and acquaintances walk into their home and say, I
didn't know you had that many children, and they have
the opportunity to say, actually, we lost one. That baby
was still born. It's so I presume, so healing for
(09:22):
them as they process that consistently.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yeah, and often it's not until we've become parents ourselves
that we can understand all of those nuances that you know,
the grieving process changes when you become a parent and
you include the family in that process. And just sixteen seconds,
if it's every sixteen seconds. It took me ten years
to be able to talk about what happened to me,
(09:48):
and twenty years to bring this book out, and it
was it's flabagasted me that you know, every sixteen seconds,
and for that family, they're able to have that conversation.
That's one of the things that really is recommended for
stillbirth is to help the families grieve. Some hospitals actually
have cuddle coots now where you can take the baby
(10:10):
home and have that experience of bringing the baby into
the nursery. And the facilities that are available now, and
the support that is available now, those networks that are
available now, it changes the conversation, and it starts a
conversation so learly.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
The book is called My Brother Born Sleeping. Part of
me wants to ask you to tell me all about
the book, but I think the conversation we've had so
far is sufficient to give parents a strong sense of
what this is about. As part of you publishing this book,
you've developed a special relationship with Red Nose Day. Why
don't you tell me a bit about that and how
(10:47):
purchasing the book will make a difference in the lives
of parents who are suffering and struggling with loss.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Absolutely well, the book was just one part of the process,
or one part of the project, and the project brought
to together not just the physical book that parents would
be able to access it and read to their children
when they need it, but also a video which is
available free online on YouTube immediately, so as soon as
the family is put in the situation of needing to
have this conversation. That video is there, it's illustrated, it's
(11:18):
read by children, so the children that need the message
are getting that message or getting the information from other children. Beautiful, absolutely,
and it's the project incorporates both. But when we're putting
it together, it was kind of an oversight that we've
realized that this book might accidentally make some money, and
that was never the intention. The intention was to create
(11:39):
a resource. And then when we realized that it might
make some money, then we've partnered with Red Nose to
make sure that every cent from every sale goes to
them to support them. They fund research, they support families.
The work that they do is just incredible and the
network that they have in the support that they provide
(11:59):
to people, it's not just to the parents. They also
provide support to families and they provide resources that can
help people like yourself as a friend of someone who
has gone through infant loss, so that you could see
you know why the family might take that time to
have those.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
And that's the thing, isn't it. Lily is not just
for the people who are suffering. It's for people who
are friends of those who are going through it, so
we're not.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
How to support exactly. And one of the illustrators that
was what drew them towards the project to begin with.
They're from the LGBTQI community and one of their friends
had just recently suffered are still born and not knowing
how to approach those conversations or what to do, and
(12:46):
being a part of this project, they were able to
then start those conversations and create an environment where it
was safe to talk about this subject, and those conversations
they go such a long way.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
If people want to know more, where can they see
the video and where can they find my brother born sleeping?
Speaker 2 (13:05):
So either the Lilyloto website or www. Dot the Knowledgecenter
dot com dot au. And the video is just available
on YouTube. And like I said, it's free, it's available,
and it's a resource. So even if you know, if
you know someone that has gone through a pregnancy or
infant loss, and just send them the link and say,
I know that you're hurting. There's nothing I can do,
(13:26):
but I found this and it might help. And sometimes
just that reaching out can be enough to start that
conversation which will start the healing process. So we can
get more people involved in the healing process. Then it's
one of those things that it's never going to be
fully healed, but being in a safe environment where you
can talk about what has happened, how it's happened, and
(13:49):
include children in that journey of healing as well.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Lilylotta is the author of the well known Rhyme Time
books and a new and really special book called My
Brother Born Sleeping. All proceeds from the book, as mentioned
go to Red Nose Day. Lellie, thanks so much for
joining me on the Happy Families podcast to talk about
this really important and not often talked about topic.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Thank you so much, Justin.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
The Happy Families Podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from
Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. If you
would like more information, our show notes are full of
as much as we can cram in there about what
Lellly Lotta has done with this book, My Brother Born Sleeping.
Please visit our show notes for more or check out
Happy Families dot com dot au for resources to make
(14:36):
your family happier.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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