August 13, 2025 • 18 mins
Half of Aussie kids say they’ve been bullied in the past year — and for some, it’s relentless. If your child is caught in the middle of it, you can feel powerless, worried, and desperate for answers.
In this powerful conversation, Professor Donna Cross shares a simple but life-changing 4-step approach to help your child feel heard, supported, and in control — plus what to try when you’ve “done it all” and nothing changes. You’ll learn:
- The hidden signs your child is struggling (and what not to miss)
- Why face-to-face bullying is still more common than cyberbullying
- The LATE model — a simple framework to guide every conversation
- Why walking or sitting side-by-side helps kids open up
- How to help when the bullying won’t stop — even after trying everything
- When changing schools is worth considering (and how to make it work)
QUOTE OF THE EPISODE
"Don’t take the wheel — take the ride. Let your child lead the conversation so they keep their sense of control."
RESOURCES MENTIONED
- Part 1 of our interview with Professor Donna Cross.
- Friendly Schools - An evidence-based whole-school approach to social & emotional wellbeing & bullying prevention.
- Bullying No Way - Professional learning resources.
- Professor Donna Cross’s research on bullying prevention and intervention
- Happy Families resources on bullying
- When Your Child is Bullied: A Calm, Practical Guide for Parents [HF Article]
- Rebecca Sparrow's friendship resources for parents and kids (Australia's "Friendship Whisperer")
- Rebecca Sparrow's friendship resources for schools and educators
- No Bullying Week: "Be Bold. Be Kind. Speak Up."
- Kid's Helpline for Bullying
- Spotlight on cyberbullying - a resource for schools
- The eSafety Commissioner's Guide to Cyberbullying
- Webinars for schools - designed for 3/4 and 5/6 students (Bullying No Way 2025)
ACTION STEPS FOR PARENTS
- Watch for warning signs — changes in mood, friendships, or routines.
- Use the LATE approach when your child opens up.
- L – Listen without rushing to take over.
- A – Acknowledge the hurt (“That sounds really tough”).
- T – Talk about options, letting your child lead the ideas.
- E – End with encouragement and keep the door open for future talks.
- Role-play tricky situations to build your child’s confidence and coping skills.
- Engage the school early and keep them informed — especially during transitions.
- Encourage bystander support skills in your child’s friendship group.
- If necessary, consider a school change — but plan supports to prevent the bullying from following them.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
On yesterday's Happy Families podcast, I had one of the
most important and valuable conversations about bullying that I think
we've ever had here on the pod. And we've talked
about bullying quite a lot. Professor Donna Cross, who works
now with the New South Wales Government and emeritus professor
at the University of Western Australia, is talking to us
(00:26):
about how we can help our kids if they are
being bullied. Donna is the New South Wales Chief Behavior
Advisor with the New South Wales Government, talking about how
we can make prevention happen in schools to keep our
kids safe. And today on the podcast we're going to
talk about the ubiquity of bullying. I think it's pretty
much everywhere. I'd be surprised if there's a single school
(00:48):
where it's not happening, at least in some way. It's
absolutely all over the place online, some kids are more
likely to be bullied than others. And if your child
is being bullied, today on the podcast we unpack what
to do to help them to get through some of
the hardest things that they will encounter as students. That's
next stay with us. This is the Happy Families Podcast.
(01:12):
Real parenting Solutions every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast.
I'm doctor Justin Coulson and today I'm joined once again
a continuation of yesterday's conversation with Professor Donna Cross from
the University of Wa. Donna, I gave the long bio yesterday.
I'm not going to do it today because there's just
so much for us to discuss. Here's my first hard question.
(01:33):
I'm going to start with the personal story. One of
my daughters was bullied quite significantly during grade eight, so
much so that after working with the school and not
making any progress, we ended up taking her out of
school and homeschooling her for about eighteen months before she finally,
in grade ten, said I'm ready to go back. So
we found another school and she's been doing quite well
since then. I'm in schools on an almost daily basis,
(01:56):
giving presentations for parents, often about resilience and anxiety, and
from time to time bullying and the challenges around it.
It's my belief that bullying exists in some form or
another in pretty much every single school in this country.
I'd love you to respond to that and tell me,
am I right? Am I wrong? What are the prevalent
stats like at a school by school basis.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Really sadly, about fifty percent of Australian children report that
they were bullied.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
At least once in the last year at school.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
That's astonishing, I mean an that's huge.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
It is certainly huge.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
And for some children it's an episode and it stops,
but for other children, a small minority, about twenty percent
of children, it continues over time, year after year. And
really sadly, one of the biggest predictors of the likelihood
have been bullied is if you've been bullied before.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
I wasn't aware of that stat That's that's really tough.
So yesterday on the podcast, we talked about preventative factors,
talked about protective factors, we talked about risk factors for
children being bullied. Today, I want to get really focused
on what to do if your child has been bullied,
whether it's happening face to face or on one. Oh
(03:11):
last time I looked at the stats, it seems that
the face to face bullying happens more than online. Can
you just confirm that for me or has that changed?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
No, certainly is much more prevalent, even though the media
has kind of picked up on cyber bullying, and it
gets a lot of attention. Up to about fifteen percent
of young people report that they've been cyberbully to it
in the last last twelve months.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
At a level that is that's hurt them to a degree.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Probably nearly forty percent of kids will say something awful
has happened online to them. But it's not necessarily bullying,
but being bullied face to face, whether that be covert
bullying or more overt pushing and hitting and so on,
but being left out, having friends taking stuff from you,
and being threatened. No, forty five fifty and of children
(04:01):
sadly are reporting that, so it's still the most prevalent.
But the two sit together. You know, some people have
said that cyber bullying and face to face bullying is
you know, same wine, different bottle, same please, different dog.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
You know, it's just a different way that it's delivered.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
So before we talk about what to do, what are
the signals, What are the things that a parent would
be attuned to to identify that something's amiss and that
bullying is happening in their child's life.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah, it's trick to pick up on because a lot
of the changes that happen, you know, through late childhood
going into adolescence are often related to changes related to.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Adolescents and staying in their room all the time right
exactly the.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Moody you know, this distance from parents that are pushing away.
Those kinds of things are hard for us to monitor,
but just things to be mindful of. More children are
bullied around year four, so ten eleven years of age,
and any other time in their life, So that's an
important queue for parents to be kind of watching their
(05:03):
children around this age. And of course all that we're
going to talk about shortly needs to be delivered well
before children are in year four, but don't if you're
children older than that, there's still things to do to
support them. The next big increase in bullying happens through
transition from primary school to high school, and this smooth
of the transition are less likely the bullying. But where
(05:26):
we as a school structure muck up friendship groups and sadly,
as a result, when children move into our high school environment,
those children who are bullied kind of reassert the social
hierarchies within the school. So when we think about and
what should we be watching for, first of all, we
need to watch developmentally, what are the changes we see
within our children. We need to know our children really well,
(05:48):
and we need to know their friends as best we can,
as much as we're allowed to. So having friends over
to your home is a great way to see how
your children relate to their friends, so that you can
then observe those friendship changes. If that same person who
is their best friend isn't coming over anymore, and maybe
your child's spending much more time alone, maybe they're doing
(06:08):
things online where you can hear them, where they're touching
their keyboard in angry ways and then coming.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
Away being in a very sad mood.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Those are the kinds of indicators in amongst all that
beautiful change that's happening at adolescents, to help you notice
those social changes and emotional changes and often physical changes,
not sleeping, you know, having difficulty eating would be some
key cues.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Let's say we identify either because our child tells us,
or because we're attentive enough and somehow the signals allowed
enough that we can identify that our child is being bullied.
What are the appropriate action steps? This is so complicated,
isn't it. I Mean we've seen news stories where parents
have gone into school and had some things to say
to the bully, to the student who's harming their child.
(07:05):
Obviously that's not a good option. But what are the options?
What do you see as being the most effective?
Speaker 3 (07:12):
And such a good question, Thanks so much for asking. Justin.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
We ran a study that was called keeping in Touch,
and we conducted this study because we found that the
majority of children in our research that when we asked
them if they were bullied, did they tell someone?
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Boys almost told no one.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Less than ten percent of boys said they told somebody
if they were bullied, and about a quarter of girls
said that they told somebody when they're being bullied.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
So a lot of kids aren't telling.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
And we then answer them, why, you know, what is
it that adults are doing so wrong that you're not
trusting us to come and tell us when these things
are messy, or that you're telling us really late when
it's scott it's so difficult to address. And they said
that there are four things that we don't do well.
And we've put these four things into a model just
a way to remember a bit of a rubrie. I
(08:00):
use this all the time, and the model that we
remember I remember is called late.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
So lat that L part is that we don't listen
very well. According to the.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Kids, they say, we hear a bit of what's going on,
and then we take over immediately. We don't ask more questions,
like tell me more about who was there, what happened,
So maybe it would happen at the bus stop.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
You know who else was at the bus stop? Where
their teachers there?
Speaker 2 (08:26):
So that really deeply understanding the situation and giving your
children time to tell their story without rushing in.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
So that's the L part.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
The A is that they say, we often are quick
to get to the solution without recognizing that it really
is hurting them. And so they said, the second stage
is acknowledge that it hurts. So they want to hear
us say something like that sounds really tough, just giving
them a moment where you show you believe in them
(08:56):
and you believe what's happened and you appreciate it's difficult.
They said, we often say things like and I know
I've said this, so you know I say it with
great shame.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
I don't worry. There's plenty of other people you can
play with. And they said, that just shows.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
We completely don't get you know what is so important
to them and having those friends around them. So that's
the second step. Acknowledge that it hurts. That sounds really tough.
The third stage, is it Okay if I go through
all these.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Stages, just oh, totally, this is so valuable. I've got
I've got a couple of questions and things that I
want to pick up on comments about each of them.
But let's let's go through the lat acronym first, because
I think this is so valuable.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
So the third step is to talk about options. That's
what the tea is about. So here children told us
that often as parents are as teachers, we rush in
with okay, the first thing we're going to do when
go to the school and we're going to talk to
your head of house, and we're going to go and
see the principal. And the kids just go, oh my goodness,
this is so out of control, and they get really
frightened and they're shut down. Instead, they said, what they'd
(09:55):
like to see here is that you get a chance
to talk about what they could do where they have
some autonomy and control. And even for younger children, this
is still helpful because you're building in them a self
confidence that there are things I can do here versus
that learned helplessness. Someone's just going to come in and
fix it for me, which at the time that might
be helpful, but it's not helping them long term. We're
(10:17):
not building resilience. So here you might ask questions like,
tell me what you tried, how did that work? Who
else has tried that? Does it work for them? What
have you seen other children doing in this situation? Could
you do that? So really pushing them to think about
from their own ideas, and then if they're really stuck,
(10:37):
and many times I've done this with children, They've got
I don't know, I don't know what I can do,
and then you can ask them questions like, well, when
this happened to me, I tried blah, only one thing
at a time. Let them know I couldn't do that. Okay,
I've seen somebody else do blah. Do you think that
would work? And giving them time to process and really
feel like I'm in control here. And then the last
(10:59):
I wasn't coming to. The last E is for end
with encouragement and hear children, particularly Australian children. I worked
in the US for five years and this isn't so
true for American children, but for Australian children, they don't
want to be winges and they say, you know, I've
told this to someone. I don't want to come back
(11:20):
and tell it again because you just think I'm complaining
or that I'm winging about this issue. And so what
we need to do as adults is to say, look.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
This will get better. It's really tough now, but you
know what I'm around.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
So as a parent, let's talk about this after school tomorrow,
let's go for a walk and have a chat and
so on. Or as a teacher, I'm on duty on Wednesdays,
come and have a chat with me, or come to
my office next Wednesday and let me know how this
is going. So it's really leading the door open to
have more conversations. And I guess the most important issue
when you're having this conversation with children, especially with boys,
(11:54):
is don't sit opposite them them at a table and
look them in the eyes, walk with them shouldered shoulder,
have conversations in the car shouldered shoulder where you're sort
of on the journey with them, and they'll feel much
more comfortable and you'll probably get a much more in
depth conversation than straight across the table and very intense.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Donald, I love the acronym when you talk about listening.
There's something that I always say to parents that is,
you want to take the ride, not the wheel. Don't
take over. And the other thing that really stood out
to me is the acknowledgment that it hurts that line,
why don't you just coupl over someone else. It's like
parents have forgotten that playground dynamics don't really allow for that.
But here's my question for you. I reckon there'll be
(12:35):
a lot of parents who will listening to this conversation
and thinking themselves, I've done it. I've done all of this.
I've had so many tear field conversations with my kids
where I've listened, I've felt that hurt with them, and
we've talked about the pain. We've come up with different options.
We've tried to organize play dates. We've done this, that
and the other. We've even intervened with the school and
asked them to help. I've had them come back to
(12:57):
me with all the encouragement of the world, knowing that
they're safe to talk to me if it comes up again,
and it just keeps happening. We are in a toxic
mess when it comes to bullying in my child. What
hope can you offer there? How do we help that
parent who just feels like escalating at the school hasn't worked.
And all the conversations that they've had walking up and
(13:19):
down the beach or down to the park, or up
and down the street, or just in the bedroom and
living room, it hasn't gone anywhere.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
And that's always a challenge with bullying because it is
so complex, and as we've talked about, you know, in
this podcast and the previous one, you know, there are
so many elements that affect that, but there are some
actions parents can take in addition to all that. When
you reach that moment you peo, well what else can
I do here? We know that the incident that's occurring
right now is awful and we need to help our
(13:46):
children get through that as best we can. But as
you used in your example justin you know, sometimes it
takes a bit of time to build the strength back
up in your children to give them the skills. And
the research around social and emotional skill development and its
impact on all outcomes for children, the academic outcomes, well
(14:06):
being outcomes, but particularly the bullying outcomes. So give me
practice in how I deal with a situation where I
feel really anxious. So it's something known as social inoculation theory,
and it says, give me practice, set up little scenarios
where I get practicing coming up with the right words,
almost like a little literacy, a little bag of ideas
(14:29):
about what I can say when I'm in this situation again,
what I can do that will help me get out
of a bit more easily than I did last time,
And talk to children about It's about progress. I might
start playing a sport and not be very good at
it when I start, but if I practice and I
go away and build skill, then I'm better at that
sport each time.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
And these social emotional learning skills are skills. And there's
lots of good.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Resource online and no doubt you'll post some in that
you put out on this podcast, but really great one
on one practices for children to develop skills like being
self aware? What are my triggers when that's happening?
Speaker 3 (15:09):
What do I do? What are things that can't be down?
Do I go for a walk? Do I read?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Do I talk to somebody when I'm in a conflict situation?
What are the ways that I can diffuse that conflict
and get away and know and practice those that I
can use them much more effectively. How do I support
my friends? Because bystanders, that witness who steps up for
other people is much more likely to protected if somebody
then targets them. So practicing those skills are critical to
(15:37):
really helping get through that situation as best we can,
and that but empowering our children so that they have
a resource to draw on.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Next time, I have a provocation to run by you,
and I still don't quite know where I sit with it.
My provocation is this, when it comes to the idea
of changing schools, one of the difficulties that you have
is that you take yourself with you when you go.
And so if you have those differences, if you have
(16:06):
those vulnerabilities where you are more likely to be bullied,
the likelihood is that wherever you go, it may still happen. Now,
I know that there are many stories that people will
share where they've moved schools and it's made all the difference.
So I'm really tentative here. Maybe it is just a
case by case thing. But for those parents who are
desperate and thinking I've I've got to send the kids
(16:27):
to a different school. What's your advice.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
It's always an option, of course, and it sometimes can
be the issue that diffuses if it's a particular subgroup
of children, and maybe it's a cohort.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Sometimes we just get a cohort of.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Young people moving through the school that are just really
poorly behaved, and taking your children out of that cohort
can break break that cycle. But we need to be
mindful that cyberbullying means that some children have followed the
bullying follows them to wherever they go. So I know
we haven't talked about cyberbullying and what parents can do
(17:02):
to really help their children with that. But as children
move to a new school, that new school needs to
be very aware of what happened in the previous school.
And there are actions that schools will take. I'll call
them Tier two actions, so kind of early intervention stuff,
extra things that they can do with that student, like
helping them to integrate into clubs, helping them to make
(17:22):
friends much more quickly so that they have all those
protective factors around them, engauge them in activities, and schools
are really good at this. We just need to make
sure they're aware, and sometimes we don't tell the next
school all the details, and that may put your children
at a disadvantage because schools do help and do want
to help.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Donna, I feel like stopping the conversation now is such
an injustice. I think we need about seventeen more hours,
maybe seventeen more days. But can I thank you so
much for being so generous and so helpful with what
you've shared today.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Thanks very much, that's such a privilege.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Professor Donacross, an emeritus professor at the University of Western
Australia and the New South Wales Chief Behavior Advisor, will
link to some of Donna's resources and a whole lot
more in our show notes. The Happy Families podcast is
produced by Justin Ruhland from Bridge Media, Mimhammond's supports with
admin and research help. If you'd like more info and
(18:19):
more resources, we will link to a whole range of
Donna's material and a whole lot more about how to
deal with and respond to bullying, and you can also
visit Happyfamilies dot com dot au
On yesterday's Happy Families podcast, I had one of the
most important and valuable conversations about bullying that I think
we've ever had here on the pod. And we've talked
about bullying quite a lot. Professor Donna Cross, who works
now with the New South Wales Government and emeritus professor
at the University of Western Australia, is talking to us
(00:26):
about how we can help our kids if they are
being bullied. Donna is the New South Wales Chief Behavior
Advisor with the New South Wales Government, talking about how
we can make prevention happen in schools to keep our
kids safe. And today on the podcast we're going to
talk about the ubiquity of bullying. I think it's pretty
much everywhere. I'd be surprised if there's a single school
(00:48):
where it's not happening, at least in some way. It's
absolutely all over the place online, some kids are more
likely to be bullied than others. And if your child
is being bullied, today on the podcast we unpack what
to do to help them to get through some of
the hardest things that they will encounter as students. That's
next stay with us. This is the Happy Families Podcast.
(01:12):
Real parenting Solutions every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast.
I'm doctor Justin Coulson and today I'm joined once again
a continuation of yesterday's conversation with Professor Donna Cross from
the University of Wa. Donna, I gave the long bio yesterday.
I'm not going to do it today because there's just
so much for us to discuss. Here's my first hard question.
(01:33):
I'm going to start with the personal story. One of
my daughters was bullied quite significantly during grade eight, so
much so that after working with the school and not
making any progress, we ended up taking her out of
school and homeschooling her for about eighteen months before she finally,
in grade ten, said I'm ready to go back. So
we found another school and she's been doing quite well
since then. I'm in schools on an almost daily basis,
(01:56):
giving presentations for parents, often about resilience and anxiety, and
from time to time bullying and the challenges around it.
It's my belief that bullying exists in some form or
another in pretty much every single school in this country.
I'd love you to respond to that and tell me,
am I right? Am I wrong? What are the prevalent
stats like at a school by school basis.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Really sadly, about fifty percent of Australian children report that
they were bullied.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
At least once in the last year at school.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
That's astonishing, I mean an that's huge.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
It is certainly huge.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
And for some children it's an episode and it stops,
but for other children, a small minority, about twenty percent
of children, it continues over time, year after year. And
really sadly, one of the biggest predictors of the likelihood
have been bullied is if you've been bullied before.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
I wasn't aware of that stat That's that's really tough.
So yesterday on the podcast, we talked about preventative factors,
talked about protective factors, we talked about risk factors for
children being bullied. Today, I want to get really focused
on what to do if your child has been bullied,
whether it's happening face to face or on one. Oh
(03:11):
last time I looked at the stats, it seems that
the face to face bullying happens more than online. Can
you just confirm that for me or has that changed?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
No, certainly is much more prevalent, even though the media
has kind of picked up on cyber bullying, and it
gets a lot of attention. Up to about fifteen percent
of young people report that they've been cyberbully to it
in the last last twelve months.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
At a level that is that's hurt them to a degree.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Probably nearly forty percent of kids will say something awful
has happened online to them. But it's not necessarily bullying,
but being bullied face to face, whether that be covert
bullying or more overt pushing and hitting and so on,
but being left out, having friends taking stuff from you,
and being threatened. No, forty five fifty and of children
(04:01):
sadly are reporting that, so it's still the most prevalent.
But the two sit together. You know, some people have
said that cyber bullying and face to face bullying is
you know, same wine, different bottle, same please, different dog.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
You know, it's just a different way that it's delivered.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
So before we talk about what to do, what are
the signals, What are the things that a parent would
be attuned to to identify that something's amiss and that
bullying is happening in their child's life.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah, it's trick to pick up on because a lot
of the changes that happen, you know, through late childhood
going into adolescence are often related to changes related to.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Adolescents and staying in their room all the time right
exactly the.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Moody you know, this distance from parents that are pushing away.
Those kinds of things are hard for us to monitor,
but just things to be mindful of. More children are
bullied around year four, so ten eleven years of age,
and any other time in their life, So that's an
important queue for parents to be kind of watching their
(05:03):
children around this age. And of course all that we're
going to talk about shortly needs to be delivered well
before children are in year four, but don't if you're
children older than that, there's still things to do to
support them. The next big increase in bullying happens through
transition from primary school to high school, and this smooth
of the transition are less likely the bullying. But where
(05:26):
we as a school structure muck up friendship groups and sadly,
as a result, when children move into our high school environment,
those children who are bullied kind of reassert the social
hierarchies within the school. So when we think about and
what should we be watching for, first of all, we
need to watch developmentally, what are the changes we see
within our children. We need to know our children really well,
(05:48):
and we need to know their friends as best we can,
as much as we're allowed to. So having friends over
to your home is a great way to see how
your children relate to their friends, so that you can
then observe those friendship changes. If that same person who
is their best friend isn't coming over anymore, and maybe
your child's spending much more time alone, maybe they're doing
(06:08):
things online where you can hear them, where they're touching
their keyboard in angry ways and then coming.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
Away being in a very sad mood.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Those are the kinds of indicators in amongst all that
beautiful change that's happening at adolescents, to help you notice
those social changes and emotional changes and often physical changes,
not sleeping, you know, having difficulty eating would be some
key cues.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Let's say we identify either because our child tells us,
or because we're attentive enough and somehow the signals allowed
enough that we can identify that our child is being bullied.
What are the appropriate action steps? This is so complicated,
isn't it. I Mean we've seen news stories where parents
have gone into school and had some things to say
to the bully, to the student who's harming their child.
(07:05):
Obviously that's not a good option. But what are the options?
What do you see as being the most effective?
Speaker 3 (07:12):
And such a good question, Thanks so much for asking. Justin.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
We ran a study that was called keeping in Touch,
and we conducted this study because we found that the
majority of children in our research that when we asked
them if they were bullied, did they tell someone?
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Boys almost told no one.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Less than ten percent of boys said they told somebody
if they were bullied, and about a quarter of girls
said that they told somebody when they're being bullied.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
So a lot of kids aren't telling.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
And we then answer them, why, you know, what is
it that adults are doing so wrong that you're not
trusting us to come and tell us when these things
are messy, or that you're telling us really late when
it's scott it's so difficult to address. And they said
that there are four things that we don't do well.
And we've put these four things into a model just
a way to remember a bit of a rubrie. I
(08:00):
use this all the time, and the model that we
remember I remember is called late.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
So lat that L part is that we don't listen
very well. According to the.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Kids, they say, we hear a bit of what's going on,
and then we take over immediately. We don't ask more questions,
like tell me more about who was there, what happened,
So maybe it would happen at the bus stop.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
You know who else was at the bus stop? Where
their teachers there?
Speaker 2 (08:26):
So that really deeply understanding the situation and giving your
children time to tell their story without rushing in.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
So that's the L part.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
The A is that they say, we often are quick
to get to the solution without recognizing that it really
is hurting them. And so they said, the second stage
is acknowledge that it hurts. So they want to hear
us say something like that sounds really tough, just giving
them a moment where you show you believe in them
(08:56):
and you believe what's happened and you appreciate it's difficult.
They said, we often say things like and I know
I've said this, so you know I say it with
great shame.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
I don't worry. There's plenty of other people you can
play with. And they said, that just shows.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
We completely don't get you know what is so important
to them and having those friends around them. So that's
the second step. Acknowledge that it hurts. That sounds really tough.
The third stage, is it Okay if I go through
all these.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Stages, just oh, totally, this is so valuable. I've got
I've got a couple of questions and things that I
want to pick up on comments about each of them.
But let's let's go through the lat acronym first, because
I think this is so valuable.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
So the third step is to talk about options. That's
what the tea is about. So here children told us
that often as parents are as teachers, we rush in
with okay, the first thing we're going to do when
go to the school and we're going to talk to
your head of house, and we're going to go and
see the principal. And the kids just go, oh my goodness,
this is so out of control, and they get really
frightened and they're shut down. Instead, they said, what they'd
(09:55):
like to see here is that you get a chance
to talk about what they could do where they have
some autonomy and control. And even for younger children, this
is still helpful because you're building in them a self
confidence that there are things I can do here versus
that learned helplessness. Someone's just going to come in and
fix it for me, which at the time that might
be helpful, but it's not helping them long term. We're
(10:17):
not building resilience. So here you might ask questions like,
tell me what you tried, how did that work? Who
else has tried that? Does it work for them? What
have you seen other children doing in this situation? Could
you do that? So really pushing them to think about
from their own ideas, and then if they're really stuck,
(10:37):
and many times I've done this with children, They've got
I don't know, I don't know what I can do,
and then you can ask them questions like, well, when
this happened to me, I tried blah, only one thing
at a time. Let them know I couldn't do that. Okay,
I've seen somebody else do blah. Do you think that
would work? And giving them time to process and really
feel like I'm in control here. And then the last
(10:59):
I wasn't coming to. The last E is for end
with encouragement and hear children, particularly Australian children. I worked
in the US for five years and this isn't so
true for American children, but for Australian children, they don't
want to be winges and they say, you know, I've
told this to someone. I don't want to come back
(11:20):
and tell it again because you just think I'm complaining
or that I'm winging about this issue. And so what
we need to do as adults is to say, look.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
This will get better. It's really tough now, but you
know what I'm around.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
So as a parent, let's talk about this after school tomorrow,
let's go for a walk and have a chat and
so on. Or as a teacher, I'm on duty on Wednesdays,
come and have a chat with me, or come to
my office next Wednesday and let me know how this
is going. So it's really leading the door open to
have more conversations. And I guess the most important issue
when you're having this conversation with children, especially with boys,
(11:54):
is don't sit opposite them them at a table and
look them in the eyes, walk with them shouldered shoulder,
have conversations in the car shouldered shoulder where you're sort
of on the journey with them, and they'll feel much
more comfortable and you'll probably get a much more in
depth conversation than straight across the table and very intense.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Donald, I love the acronym when you talk about listening.
There's something that I always say to parents that is,
you want to take the ride, not the wheel. Don't
take over. And the other thing that really stood out
to me is the acknowledgment that it hurts that line,
why don't you just coupl over someone else. It's like
parents have forgotten that playground dynamics don't really allow for that.
But here's my question for you. I reckon there'll be
(12:35):
a lot of parents who will listening to this conversation
and thinking themselves, I've done it. I've done all of this.
I've had so many tear field conversations with my kids
where I've listened, I've felt that hurt with them, and
we've talked about the pain. We've come up with different options.
We've tried to organize play dates. We've done this, that
and the other. We've even intervened with the school and
asked them to help. I've had them come back to
(12:57):
me with all the encouragement of the world, knowing that
they're safe to talk to me if it comes up again,
and it just keeps happening. We are in a toxic
mess when it comes to bullying in my child. What
hope can you offer there? How do we help that
parent who just feels like escalating at the school hasn't worked.
And all the conversations that they've had walking up and
(13:19):
down the beach or down to the park, or up
and down the street, or just in the bedroom and
living room, it hasn't gone anywhere.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
And that's always a challenge with bullying because it is
so complex, and as we've talked about, you know, in
this podcast and the previous one, you know, there are
so many elements that affect that, but there are some
actions parents can take in addition to all that. When
you reach that moment you peo, well what else can
I do here? We know that the incident that's occurring
right now is awful and we need to help our
(13:46):
children get through that as best we can. But as
you used in your example justin you know, sometimes it
takes a bit of time to build the strength back
up in your children to give them the skills. And
the research around social and emotional skill development and its
impact on all outcomes for children, the academic outcomes, well
(14:06):
being outcomes, but particularly the bullying outcomes. So give me
practice in how I deal with a situation where I
feel really anxious. So it's something known as social inoculation theory,
and it says, give me practice, set up little scenarios
where I get practicing coming up with the right words,
almost like a little literacy, a little bag of ideas
(14:29):
about what I can say when I'm in this situation again,
what I can do that will help me get out
of a bit more easily than I did last time,
And talk to children about It's about progress. I might
start playing a sport and not be very good at
it when I start, but if I practice and I
go away and build skill, then I'm better at that
sport each time.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
And these social emotional learning skills are skills. And there's
lots of good.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Resource online and no doubt you'll post some in that
you put out on this podcast, but really great one
on one practices for children to develop skills like being
self aware? What are my triggers when that's happening?
Speaker 3 (15:09):
What do I do? What are things that can't be down?
Do I go for a walk? Do I read?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Do I talk to somebody when I'm in a conflict situation?
What are the ways that I can diffuse that conflict
and get away and know and practice those that I
can use them much more effectively. How do I support
my friends? Because bystanders, that witness who steps up for
other people is much more likely to protected if somebody
then targets them. So practicing those skills are critical to
(15:37):
really helping get through that situation as best we can,
and that but empowering our children so that they have
a resource to draw on.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Next time, I have a provocation to run by you,
and I still don't quite know where I sit with it.
My provocation is this, when it comes to the idea
of changing schools, one of the difficulties that you have
is that you take yourself with you when you go.
And so if you have those differences, if you have
(16:06):
those vulnerabilities where you are more likely to be bullied,
the likelihood is that wherever you go, it may still happen. Now,
I know that there are many stories that people will
share where they've moved schools and it's made all the difference.
So I'm really tentative here. Maybe it is just a
case by case thing. But for those parents who are
desperate and thinking I've I've got to send the kids
(16:27):
to a different school. What's your advice.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
It's always an option, of course, and it sometimes can
be the issue that diffuses if it's a particular subgroup
of children, and maybe it's a cohort.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Sometimes we just get a cohort of.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Young people moving through the school that are just really
poorly behaved, and taking your children out of that cohort
can break break that cycle. But we need to be
mindful that cyberbullying means that some children have followed the
bullying follows them to wherever they go. So I know
we haven't talked about cyberbullying and what parents can do
(17:02):
to really help their children with that. But as children
move to a new school, that new school needs to
be very aware of what happened in the previous school.
And there are actions that schools will take. I'll call
them Tier two actions, so kind of early intervention stuff,
extra things that they can do with that student, like
helping them to integrate into clubs, helping them to make
(17:22):
friends much more quickly so that they have all those
protective factors around them, engauge them in activities, and schools
are really good at this. We just need to make
sure they're aware, and sometimes we don't tell the next
school all the details, and that may put your children
at a disadvantage because schools do help and do want
to help.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Donna, I feel like stopping the conversation now is such
an injustice. I think we need about seventeen more hours,
maybe seventeen more days. But can I thank you so
much for being so generous and so helpful with what
you've shared today.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Thanks very much, that's such a privilege.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Professor Donacross, an emeritus professor at the University of Western
Australia and the New South Wales Chief Behavior Advisor, will
link to some of Donna's resources and a whole lot
more in our show notes. The Happy Families podcast is
produced by Justin Ruhland from Bridge Media, Mimhammond's supports with
admin and research help. If you'd like more info and
(18:19):
more resources, we will link to a whole range of
Donna's material and a whole lot more about how to
deal with and respond to bullying, and you can also
visit Happyfamilies dot com dot au
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