February 11, 2024 • 19 mins
Losing sleep over whether to send your child to a single-sex or co-educational school? There are more important issues to be focused on, such as the culture of a school.
In this episode:
- Socio-economic impact on academic performance
- Pros and cons of single-sex education
- How the pros and cons play out in the real world
- The culture of a school
- Quality of staff
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
It's the Happy Families podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
It's the podcast for.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
The time poor parent who just wants answers Now.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Just over a week ago, we received an email that
caught my attention. Podcasts at happy families dot com is
the email address podcasts with an s at happy families
dot com. Somebody shot through an email and what they
basically said was the start of the year, we've been
trying to work out what to do about our kids
and schooling. We try to work out same gender or
(00:32):
co ed what should we do? What does the research say?
And so I dive into the research. Kylie had a
good look at it. I had some pretty strong preconceived
ideas based on my experiences in and around both co
ed and same gender schools. I mean, I've been working
in and around schools now for about fifteen years, and
I was quite surprised by what the research had to say.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
I know, the school selection is a huge consideration for
parents across the country the world, like we're constantly trying
to work out.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
We've done podcasts on it, right, webinar it's the.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Best school is and where we should send our kids?
And the sleepless nights and the anxiety and all of
that that's associated with making this decision and wondering whether
or not we're doing the right thing. But as far
as same sex schools go, there are actually many around No, not.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Really, So I did some digging and what I found
was that there's a round about let's say nine and
a half ten thousand schools in Australia, give or take
something in that ten thousand school ballpark, less than four
percent of all schools, so that would be less than
four hundred schools in the country, either all boy or
all girls schools. And what we're finding is increasingly government
(01:45):
schools are shutting down the single sex schools and going
co ed. There's still a lot more private schools, but
the government schools are increasingly hard to find. In fact,
you can only find them in New South Wales, South Australia, Victoria.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
I was going to say, I don't have one around
us at.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
All, No government schools, No plenty of same gender private schools.
But something else that I found this is really fascinating.
I think when I was doing the digging, there is
a premium that parents place on single sex schools, so
much so that real estate in areas where there is
a same gender school is pricier, and it's not just
(02:23):
because they're in the fancy inner city areas, which is
more often than not the case, not all of them are.
But what I found was when it comes to government schools,
the suburbs where those single sex government schools are located
get about a two percent premium for a house, which,
if you're looking at an average home, is somewhere around
the twenty to twenty five thousand dollars boost in those states. Obviously,
(02:47):
some of those suburbs are worth a lot more and
some are worth a bit less, but on average, we're
talking about a significant premium just to live in an
area where there is a single sex school so that
parents can get their kids in there. That's how prized
it is in the eyes of enough of the population.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
I find that intriguing.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Yeah, absolutely, especially since a close look at the evidence
indicates that people might be paying for well, there's arguments
for and arguments against. Why don't we go through the
arguments for the pros in theory, Okay, in theory why
people might want a single sex school for their kids.
So academics make the following five central arguments for why
(03:29):
same sex schools are positive. First off, there's an argument
that academic performance is higher. It's commonly accepted that you
get better our academic outcomes in a single sex school.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
So my impression, and it is just my impression. I've
had no experience, but my impression is that same sex schools,
generally speaking, it's very competitive to get in. They are
in very prestigious suburbs to start with, so it costs
a lot. The average person doesn't just walk in the door.
(04:00):
And as a result, the resources that are available to
these kids, not only within the school setting, but within
their own homes and neighborhoods would obviously give them a
greater advantage than the average student at the public school
down the road.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
This is a really important insight that you've raised. I'm
so stoked that you came up with that. When socioeconomic
status is controlled for in academic research and the appropriate
variables are controlled for, the difference between single sex and
co ed schools drops to practically zero. So in theory,
they're better. But once you look at the real world
ramifications how that plays out, you're absolutely right, single sex
(04:38):
schools will outperform co ed schools, but it actually usually
has more to do with the postcode than it has
to do with what's happening in the school. At least
that's what it looks like from a statistical point of view.
Second key thing that proponents will argue make single sex
schools better is that there's an argument that there's reduced
gender stereotyping. Essentially, if there are a whole bunch of
(05:01):
girls at a school or a whole bunch of boys
at a school, the idea is that they're more likely
to dabble in a broader range of subjects and activities
without feeling like they have to live up to a
certain gender expectation or follow a particular bias.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Is that actually playing out though, in what we're seeing
as a result, like a girl's coming out being computer
geniuses and you know, doing things that would stereotypically not
be female driven careers as a result of the fact
that they're not competing with males and vice versa.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
This one is a little bit complicated, and when I
look carefully at the data, what I find is this.
So again, looking at what the pros apparently are and
then how they truly play out in the real world,
there is definitely evidence that girls are much more inclined
in a in an all girls environment to spread their
wings and enroll in subjects that are traditionally and I
(05:57):
sort of chafe at the word traditionally, but I'll use
it anyway, that traditionally more likely to be oriented towards boys.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
So I'm guessing based on that, you're talking more about
those academically robust subjects.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Chemistry, physics, high level maths, all that kind of stuff, engineering,
all the stem subjects, basically the science, technology, engineering, math subjects.
Girls in single sex schools are much more likely to
go into those areas than they might be in a
co ed environment. Now that's not to say girls in
co ed environments don't. It's just that the likelihood the
gender stereotyping is lower in a girls school. But what
I find fascinating, and I should also mention logitun or
(06:33):
data shows that girls from single sex schools are not
more likely to major in physical or life sciences than
their co educational peers once they get to UNI. Okay,
so that seems to water down once they get into
university and can choose whatever they want. But here's the thing.
Boys in or boys' schools aren't in the main signing
up for traditionally female subjects.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Yeah, so they're still sticking to very traditionally accepted male
correct Domini subjects.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Which in some ways becomes a con right because of
the hot housing of male stereotyping. But we'll get there
in a sec. Third big reason that people will say
single sex schools are better is just the idea of
increased confidence. Some research indicates that students in same sex
schools may develop high levels of confidence because they're not
competing with the opposite gender in terms of their academic
(07:22):
activities their extracurricular activities. I think in real life this
is more of an issue for girls than it is
for boys.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
I was about to say, I actually feel like this
would be a benefit to girls. I feel like being
able to participate in different subjects and just be accepted
for who you are and what you're capable of instead
of being stereotyped within that co ed situation would really
increase a girl's ability and confidence to move forward.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Yeah, so the idea there. The theory is that it
boosts confidence. I think that there's a gender difference at play,
although I can't find evidence to support my theorizing, So
I just need to tread gently. There the two other
things that are quickly worth mentioning in terms of pros
tailored teaching strategies. Now, this is a big one, and
what I have found, I've watched this happen. Educators in
(08:16):
single sex schools are very much able to tailor their
teaching methods to better suit the learning styles and the
preferences of particular gender, which means that we can help
them with those academic outcomes, or at least, if not
academic outcomes, based on what we're saying before, at least
with better engagement. We need to take the post code
issue into consideration here as well. We just talked about that.
But the other thing to bear in mind is that
(08:38):
there is more within gender variation than there is between
gender variation. That is, girls range from very high to
very low on a whole lot of variables, as do boys.
On average, Girls or boys might be higher or lower
on one than the other, but the difference between the
genders isn't enormous. There's much more within gender variation than
(08:59):
between variation. Nevertheless, I do see it happen, especially when
I'm in boys' schools. I watch the way the teachers
engage with the boys, and I compare that to what's
happening in girls schools, and it really is absolutely different. Yeah,
fundamentally different, and I can't help but think that that
has to be a positive, a real positive for both
(09:19):
the girls or the boys in those schools. The final
major pro in theory is that there's minimized distractions.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Well, I guess that's probably the one that most people
talk about all the time in their decision to send
their kids to The.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Girls don't have to worry about the boys, and the
boys don't have to worry about the girls, So they're
the pros.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
I'm interested to know what the cons are because based
on what you've shared, it would seem like sending your
kids to a same sex school actually sounds pretty good.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
It does, and I completely understand why parents would choose
to do that. Let me go through four cons really quickly,
because there are, I think concerning drawbacks to same sex education. Now, again,
this is the theoretical stuff. We need to talk about
on the ground practical stuff shortly. But number one, there
is the limited social interaction. Okay, so most critics of
same sex education are going to say that being in
(10:15):
a school with all the kids of the same gender
are going to limit students exposure at diverse perspectives, and
it's going to reduce opportunities for healthy social interaction between
the genders.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
I find this interesting, though, because it's not like school
is their only social network, or we're treating it like
it is it's the only time that they'll get out.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Well for some it is, especially for the boys or
girls who are a boarding school, for example, or for
the kids who extremely studious or have a lot of
pressure placed on them by parents who pretty much say,
go to school, then come home and study. We're talking
about later years, particularly, or whose lives are so full
of extracurricular activities that they're not getting a lot of
social interaction with the other gender. It's not a high
(10:54):
probability outcome, but it certainly does happen.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
But those things would be problematic whether you are at
a co ed school or not, because your level of
social interaction is limited based on all of those things.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
The second major theoretical con is real world preparedness. What
I mean by that is that there are people who
will argue that same sex education may not adequately prepare
students for the real world where they're going to have
to interact with people of all genders in various settings.
To me, it's bunk.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
I mean, their teachers aren't all female, whether their teachers
aren't all male, not.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Just that, but they've got family members and they do
actually have life outside of school. So I find that
one really quite a weak argument against it. The other two.
This one is a big one stereotype reinforcement. There is
a concern that single sex environments might inadvertently, sometimes even
(11:52):
explicitly and intentionally reinforced gender stereotypes by removing the opportunity
for students to learn about and appreciate the differences between
the genders.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
I feel like this one would actually play out more
so in boys' schools well. I feel like, as a whole,
societies really worked hard at giving women opportunities and helping
girls recognize that, you know, they don't have to fall
into stereotypes, Whereas I still think there's still a lot
of work for us to do in helping our boys
(12:24):
to grow into healthy, productive men.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
I hear people share those sentiments a lot. That's one
of the big concerns, and I want to give a
couple of examples of that shortly narrower skill set development
is the fourth and final idea. Essentially, exposure to diverse
perspectives in a co educational setting can contribute to the
development of interpersonal skills that are crucial for ongoing success,
which might be limited in a same sex environment. I
(12:48):
mean to me, this is a variation of the second
one that we shared, but it comes up a lot
and people frame it and phrase it in different ways.
His help plays out in the real world. I've already
talked about stereo types, have already talked about academic performance.
But when we move away from theory and get into
what's really happening when it comes to girls, we know
this social and emotional well being is lower for girls
(13:11):
in co ed schools than in single sex schools, And
we also know that girls in co ed schools do
experience high levels higher i should say, levels of gender
bias and stereotyping, and they're more likely to be sexually
harassed and bullied. So students that are educated in an
all girls environment do tend to be more confident. They're
(13:32):
more likely to take on risks and challenges and be
competitive and push themselves. They're not worried about the judgments
and the inappropriate comments from the sidelines. They're more willing
to take risks, basically, and I really like that. Now
on boys a friend, And granted this is a sample
size of one, so we're not talking about the huge
data here. We're just talking about somebody who told me
that going to a boys' school made him shy around women.
(13:55):
But worse, he said that he felt that it fueled
the sexist idea that women were inferior intellectually and in
other ways. And he suggested that that lack of female
friends and girlfriends could lead to objectification. Now, when we
look at that infamous twenty twenty two Saint Kevin's two
rac example egregious indicator, where those boys were on that
(14:16):
suburban tram and they were filmed seeing that awful chant,
it certainly reinforces the stereotype that that could be happening,
and that kind of aligns with what you were getting
at before. But then we look at even more evidence,
the various testimonials that were in the Chanelle Coontos Teachers
Consent petition. Boys from private schools were getting absolutely slammed
(14:40):
by the girls and saying they just don't get it.
So the argument basically is in a boy's school, not
so much in a girl's school, but in a boy's school.
It could be argued that an absence of relationships leads
to emotional immaturity and insecurity when those boys eventually have partners,
But the evidence doesn't support this at an aggregate level,
only at an individual level with one on one case
(15:01):
study sort of thing. So I found some long channel
research from England showed no statistical difference between same sex
and co ed schools for relationship outcomes like marriage and
age of childbearing and relationship quality. Men from all boys
schools were just slightly more likely to be divorced by
the age of forty two, but there was no statistical
difference in terms of the amount of household labor that
(15:24):
was being done. But that stereotype persists that those boys
have a prime minister leadership mentality, like they believe that
being in charge is their ride. Here's something really telling though,
when I was looking at the trends in Australia on
co ed and single sex schools, there are more and
more single sex schools that have chosen to move to
(15:45):
co ed in recent years. So it's happening right now
with a very very prominent school in Sydney. A couple
of years ago, another very prominent school in Sydney did it.
But when you look at who's opening their gates to
the other gender, it's really revealing. The overwhelming majority have
been boys' schools that are offering places to girls. And
(16:06):
I might just say, very sensitively anecdotally, I've heard horror
stories as girls have attempted to transition into that previously
all male environment.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
I imagine, but a girls school.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Is choosing to bring in boys just doesn't happen. So
we're out of time. What would I do for my kid?
How do we make this choice for our child? If
we're looking at schools and trying to choose between co
ed and single sex. The first thing that I would
say is, with all the work that I do in
all the schools that I work in, I am genuinely, authentically,
(16:44):
consistently amazed at the equality of the staff and the
outstanding outcomes that single sex schools achieved for their students.
They are exceptional and exemplary in almost every case. I'm
always stunned by it and the ability of that the
te just have to approach a single gender really well
I really think that it's brilliant and students seem to
(17:06):
work really well without the opposite gender being present, which
makes it sound like I'm going to say I'm all
for single sex schools.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Well, it's interesting, because yes, I would think that that's
what you're going to say, But for us, it's actually
never been a consideration because I actually don't think that
it is the most important factor in choosing a school.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
I don't either, and that's why we're making the decisions
that we are making. What matters to me and to you,
because we've had these conversations is not the gender.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Mix, but it's the culture of the school.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Culture of the school, it's what they do there, It's
how they teach children, it's what their philosophy is. It's
whether the students are happy to be there, whether the
kids feel a sense of belonging and acceptance and connection,
and whether they're engaged and progressing, and what the staff
do when a student's struggling.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
You're saying this, and literally my eyes are tearing up
because I remember our kids moving to a school for
the first on day one, and one of our children
who had literally in the first three years of her
life been invited to two birthday parties, arriving that day
three is her school life, Yes, and having pretty much
(18:19):
the entire cohort that year's cohort waiting at the top
of the stairs for her to walk through the gate.
The culture of that school was so inclusive and our
girls experience just complete and utter welcome love and acceptance.
Thank you from day one.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Thank you see this in Woollongong. So here's here's my
take on it. If a school checks all the boxes,
whether it's co ed or single sex should matter at all.
And if the school doesn't check all the boxes, co
ed or single sex doesn't matter at all. We hope
this has been a helpful podcast for those of you
who are struggling with the choice. Maybe it's less of
a challenge now. The Happy Family's podcast is produced by
(19:00):
Justin rule On from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our
executive producer. If you're looking for more information about how
you can make your family happier or go on a
quest to help your family flourish, please check out our
Happy Families membership. It's called the Quest and you can
find all the info at Happy families dot com dot au.
Tomorrow on the podcast, we're going to find out which
group of people top lists of child sex abuses. It's
(19:25):
one not to miss. The Happy Family's podcast is back tomorrow.
We'll talk to you there
It's the Happy Families podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
It's the podcast for.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
The time poor parent who just wants answers Now.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Just over a week ago, we received an email that
caught my attention. Podcasts at happy families dot com is
the email address podcasts with an s at happy families
dot com. Somebody shot through an email and what they
basically said was the start of the year, we've been
trying to work out what to do about our kids
and schooling. We try to work out same gender or
(00:32):
co ed what should we do? What does the research say?
And so I dive into the research. Kylie had a
good look at it. I had some pretty strong preconceived
ideas based on my experiences in and around both co
ed and same gender schools. I mean, I've been working
in and around schools now for about fifteen years, and
I was quite surprised by what the research had to say.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
I know, the school selection is a huge consideration for
parents across the country the world, like we're constantly trying
to work out.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
We've done podcasts on it, right, webinar it's the.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Best school is and where we should send our kids?
And the sleepless nights and the anxiety and all of
that that's associated with making this decision and wondering whether
or not we're doing the right thing. But as far
as same sex schools go, there are actually many around No, not.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Really, So I did some digging and what I found
was that there's a round about let's say nine and
a half ten thousand schools in Australia, give or take
something in that ten thousand school ballpark, less than four
percent of all schools, so that would be less than
four hundred schools in the country, either all boy or
all girls schools. And what we're finding is increasingly government
(01:45):
schools are shutting down the single sex schools and going
co ed. There's still a lot more private schools, but
the government schools are increasingly hard to find. In fact,
you can only find them in New South Wales, South Australia, Victoria.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
I was going to say, I don't have one around
us at.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
All, No government schools, No plenty of same gender private schools.
But something else that I found this is really fascinating.
I think when I was doing the digging, there is
a premium that parents place on single sex schools, so
much so that real estate in areas where there is
a same gender school is pricier, and it's not just
(02:23):
because they're in the fancy inner city areas, which is
more often than not the case, not all of them are.
But what I found was when it comes to government schools,
the suburbs where those single sex government schools are located
get about a two percent premium for a house, which,
if you're looking at an average home, is somewhere around
the twenty to twenty five thousand dollars boost in those states. Obviously,
(02:47):
some of those suburbs are worth a lot more and
some are worth a bit less, but on average, we're
talking about a significant premium just to live in an
area where there is a single sex school so that
parents can get their kids in there. That's how prized
it is in the eyes of enough of the population.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
I find that intriguing.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Yeah, absolutely, especially since a close look at the evidence
indicates that people might be paying for well, there's arguments
for and arguments against. Why don't we go through the
arguments for the pros in theory, Okay, in theory why
people might want a single sex school for their kids.
So academics make the following five central arguments for why
(03:29):
same sex schools are positive. First off, there's an argument
that academic performance is higher. It's commonly accepted that you
get better our academic outcomes in a single sex school.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
So my impression, and it is just my impression. I've
had no experience, but my impression is that same sex schools,
generally speaking, it's very competitive to get in. They are
in very prestigious suburbs to start with, so it costs
a lot. The average person doesn't just walk in the door.
(04:00):
And as a result, the resources that are available to
these kids, not only within the school setting, but within
their own homes and neighborhoods would obviously give them a
greater advantage than the average student at the public school
down the road.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
This is a really important insight that you've raised. I'm
so stoked that you came up with that. When socioeconomic
status is controlled for in academic research and the appropriate
variables are controlled for, the difference between single sex and
co ed schools drops to practically zero. So in theory,
they're better. But once you look at the real world
ramifications how that plays out, you're absolutely right, single sex
(04:38):
schools will outperform co ed schools, but it actually usually
has more to do with the postcode than it has
to do with what's happening in the school. At least
that's what it looks like from a statistical point of view.
Second key thing that proponents will argue make single sex
schools better is that there's an argument that there's reduced
gender stereotyping. Essentially, if there are a whole bunch of
(05:01):
girls at a school or a whole bunch of boys
at a school, the idea is that they're more likely
to dabble in a broader range of subjects and activities
without feeling like they have to live up to a
certain gender expectation or follow a particular bias.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Is that actually playing out though, in what we're seeing
as a result, like a girl's coming out being computer
geniuses and you know, doing things that would stereotypically not
be female driven careers as a result of the fact
that they're not competing with males and vice versa.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
This one is a little bit complicated, and when I
look carefully at the data, what I find is this.
So again, looking at what the pros apparently are and
then how they truly play out in the real world,
there is definitely evidence that girls are much more inclined
in a in an all girls environment to spread their
wings and enroll in subjects that are traditionally and I
(05:57):
sort of chafe at the word traditionally, but I'll use
it anyway, that traditionally more likely to be oriented towards boys.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
So I'm guessing based on that, you're talking more about
those academically robust subjects.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Chemistry, physics, high level maths, all that kind of stuff, engineering,
all the stem subjects, basically the science, technology, engineering, math subjects.
Girls in single sex schools are much more likely to
go into those areas than they might be in a
co ed environment. Now that's not to say girls in
co ed environments don't. It's just that the likelihood the
gender stereotyping is lower in a girls school. But what
I find fascinating, and I should also mention logitun or
(06:33):
data shows that girls from single sex schools are not
more likely to major in physical or life sciences than
their co educational peers once they get to UNI. Okay,
so that seems to water down once they get into
university and can choose whatever they want. But here's the thing.
Boys in or boys' schools aren't in the main signing
up for traditionally female subjects.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Yeah, so they're still sticking to very traditionally accepted male
correct Domini subjects.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Which in some ways becomes a con right because of
the hot housing of male stereotyping. But we'll get there
in a sec. Third big reason that people will say
single sex schools are better is just the idea of
increased confidence. Some research indicates that students in same sex
schools may develop high levels of confidence because they're not
competing with the opposite gender in terms of their academic
(07:22):
activities their extracurricular activities. I think in real life this
is more of an issue for girls than it is
for boys.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
I was about to say, I actually feel like this
would be a benefit to girls. I feel like being
able to participate in different subjects and just be accepted
for who you are and what you're capable of instead
of being stereotyped within that co ed situation would really
increase a girl's ability and confidence to move forward.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Yeah, so the idea there. The theory is that it
boosts confidence. I think that there's a gender difference at play,
although I can't find evidence to support my theorizing, So
I just need to tread gently. There the two other
things that are quickly worth mentioning in terms of pros
tailored teaching strategies. Now, this is a big one, and
what I have found, I've watched this happen. Educators in
(08:16):
single sex schools are very much able to tailor their
teaching methods to better suit the learning styles and the
preferences of particular gender, which means that we can help
them with those academic outcomes, or at least, if not
academic outcomes, based on what we're saying before, at least
with better engagement. We need to take the post code
issue into consideration here as well. We just talked about that.
But the other thing to bear in mind is that
(08:38):
there is more within gender variation than there is between
gender variation. That is, girls range from very high to
very low on a whole lot of variables, as do boys.
On average, Girls or boys might be higher or lower
on one than the other, but the difference between the
genders isn't enormous. There's much more within gender variation than
(08:59):
between variation. Nevertheless, I do see it happen, especially when
I'm in boys' schools. I watch the way the teachers
engage with the boys, and I compare that to what's
happening in girls schools, and it really is absolutely different. Yeah,
fundamentally different, and I can't help but think that that
has to be a positive, a real positive for both
(09:19):
the girls or the boys in those schools. The final
major pro in theory is that there's minimized distractions.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Well, I guess that's probably the one that most people
talk about all the time in their decision to send
their kids to The.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Girls don't have to worry about the boys, and the
boys don't have to worry about the girls, So they're
the pros.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
I'm interested to know what the cons are because based
on what you've shared, it would seem like sending your
kids to a same sex school actually sounds pretty good.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
It does, and I completely understand why parents would choose
to do that. Let me go through four cons really quickly,
because there are, I think concerning drawbacks to same sex education. Now, again,
this is the theoretical stuff. We need to talk about
on the ground practical stuff shortly. But number one, there
is the limited social interaction. Okay, so most critics of
same sex education are going to say that being in
(10:15):
a school with all the kids of the same gender
are going to limit students exposure at diverse perspectives, and
it's going to reduce opportunities for healthy social interaction between
the genders.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
I find this interesting, though, because it's not like school
is their only social network, or we're treating it like
it is it's the only time that they'll get out.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Well for some it is, especially for the boys or
girls who are a boarding school, for example, or for
the kids who extremely studious or have a lot of
pressure placed on them by parents who pretty much say,
go to school, then come home and study. We're talking
about later years, particularly, or whose lives are so full
of extracurricular activities that they're not getting a lot of
social interaction with the other gender. It's not a high
(10:54):
probability outcome, but it certainly does happen.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
But those things would be problematic whether you are at
a co ed school or not, because your level of
social interaction is limited based on all of those things.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
The second major theoretical con is real world preparedness. What
I mean by that is that there are people who
will argue that same sex education may not adequately prepare
students for the real world where they're going to have
to interact with people of all genders in various settings.
To me, it's bunk.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
I mean, their teachers aren't all female, whether their teachers
aren't all male, not.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Just that, but they've got family members and they do
actually have life outside of school. So I find that
one really quite a weak argument against it. The other two.
This one is a big one stereotype reinforcement. There is
a concern that single sex environments might inadvertently, sometimes even
(11:52):
explicitly and intentionally reinforced gender stereotypes by removing the opportunity
for students to learn about and appreciate the differences between
the genders.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
I feel like this one would actually play out more
so in boys' schools well. I feel like, as a whole,
societies really worked hard at giving women opportunities and helping
girls recognize that, you know, they don't have to fall
into stereotypes, Whereas I still think there's still a lot
of work for us to do in helping our boys
(12:24):
to grow into healthy, productive men.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
I hear people share those sentiments a lot. That's one
of the big concerns, and I want to give a
couple of examples of that shortly narrower skill set development
is the fourth and final idea. Essentially, exposure to diverse
perspectives in a co educational setting can contribute to the
development of interpersonal skills that are crucial for ongoing success,
which might be limited in a same sex environment. I
(12:48):
mean to me, this is a variation of the second
one that we shared, but it comes up a lot
and people frame it and phrase it in different ways.
His help plays out in the real world. I've already
talked about stereo types, have already talked about academic performance.
But when we move away from theory and get into
what's really happening when it comes to girls, we know
this social and emotional well being is lower for girls
(13:11):
in co ed schools than in single sex schools, And
we also know that girls in co ed schools do
experience high levels higher i should say, levels of gender
bias and stereotyping, and they're more likely to be sexually
harassed and bullied. So students that are educated in an
all girls environment do tend to be more confident. They're
(13:32):
more likely to take on risks and challenges and be
competitive and push themselves. They're not worried about the judgments
and the inappropriate comments from the sidelines. They're more willing
to take risks, basically, and I really like that. Now
on boys a friend, And granted this is a sample
size of one, so we're not talking about the huge
data here. We're just talking about somebody who told me
that going to a boys' school made him shy around women.
(13:55):
But worse, he said that he felt that it fueled
the sexist idea that women were inferior intellectually and in
other ways. And he suggested that that lack of female
friends and girlfriends could lead to objectification. Now, when we
look at that infamous twenty twenty two Saint Kevin's two
rac example egregious indicator, where those boys were on that
(14:16):
suburban tram and they were filmed seeing that awful chant,
it certainly reinforces the stereotype that that could be happening,
and that kind of aligns with what you were getting
at before. But then we look at even more evidence,
the various testimonials that were in the Chanelle Coontos Teachers
Consent petition. Boys from private schools were getting absolutely slammed
(14:40):
by the girls and saying they just don't get it.
So the argument basically is in a boy's school, not
so much in a girl's school, but in a boy's school.
It could be argued that an absence of relationships leads
to emotional immaturity and insecurity when those boys eventually have partners,
But the evidence doesn't support this at an aggregate level,
only at an individual level with one on one case
(15:01):
study sort of thing. So I found some long channel
research from England showed no statistical difference between same sex
and co ed schools for relationship outcomes like marriage and
age of childbearing and relationship quality. Men from all boys
schools were just slightly more likely to be divorced by
the age of forty two, but there was no statistical
difference in terms of the amount of household labor that
(15:24):
was being done. But that stereotype persists that those boys
have a prime minister leadership mentality, like they believe that
being in charge is their ride. Here's something really telling though,
when I was looking at the trends in Australia on
co ed and single sex schools, there are more and
more single sex schools that have chosen to move to
(15:45):
co ed in recent years. So it's happening right now
with a very very prominent school in Sydney. A couple
of years ago, another very prominent school in Sydney did it.
But when you look at who's opening their gates to
the other gender, it's really revealing. The overwhelming majority have
been boys' schools that are offering places to girls. And
(16:06):
I might just say, very sensitively anecdotally, I've heard horror
stories as girls have attempted to transition into that previously
all male environment.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
I imagine, but a girls school.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Is choosing to bring in boys just doesn't happen. So
we're out of time. What would I do for my kid?
How do we make this choice for our child? If
we're looking at schools and trying to choose between co
ed and single sex. The first thing that I would
say is, with all the work that I do in
all the schools that I work in, I am genuinely, authentically,
(16:44):
consistently amazed at the equality of the staff and the
outstanding outcomes that single sex schools achieved for their students.
They are exceptional and exemplary in almost every case. I'm
always stunned by it and the ability of that the
te just have to approach a single gender really well
I really think that it's brilliant and students seem to
(17:06):
work really well without the opposite gender being present, which
makes it sound like I'm going to say I'm all
for single sex schools.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Well, it's interesting, because yes, I would think that that's
what you're going to say, But for us, it's actually
never been a consideration because I actually don't think that
it is the most important factor in choosing a school.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
I don't either, and that's why we're making the decisions
that we are making. What matters to me and to you,
because we've had these conversations is not the gender.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Mix, but it's the culture of the school.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Culture of the school, it's what they do there, It's
how they teach children, it's what their philosophy is. It's
whether the students are happy to be there, whether the
kids feel a sense of belonging and acceptance and connection,
and whether they're engaged and progressing, and what the staff
do when a student's struggling.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
You're saying this, and literally my eyes are tearing up
because I remember our kids moving to a school for
the first on day one, and one of our children
who had literally in the first three years of her
life been invited to two birthday parties, arriving that day
three is her school life, Yes, and having pretty much
(18:19):
the entire cohort that year's cohort waiting at the top
of the stairs for her to walk through the gate.
The culture of that school was so inclusive and our
girls experience just complete and utter welcome love and acceptance.
Thank you from day one.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Thank you see this in Woollongong. So here's here's my
take on it. If a school checks all the boxes,
whether it's co ed or single sex should matter at all.
And if the school doesn't check all the boxes, co
ed or single sex doesn't matter at all. We hope
this has been a helpful podcast for those of you
who are struggling with the choice. Maybe it's less of
a challenge now. The Happy Family's podcast is produced by
(19:00):
Justin rule On from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our
executive producer. If you're looking for more information about how
you can make your family happier or go on a
quest to help your family flourish, please check out our
Happy Families membership. It's called the Quest and you can
find all the info at Happy families dot com dot au.
Tomorrow on the podcast, we're going to find out which
group of people top lists of child sex abuses. It's
(19:25):
one not to miss. The Happy Family's podcast is back tomorrow.
We'll talk to you there
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