April 9, 2024 • 19 mins
Part 2 of Justin speaking with author & associate Professor Katie Davis about her new book
Topics discussed in this episode -
- Technology's Child by Katie Davis
- Justin asks Katie some rapid fire questions about her own family life
- Using technology to reinforce technology rules
- Finding a balance
- Video games aren't all bad
- The impact of social media
Further reading/watching:
- Screens And Our Boys - a Happy Families Article
- 5 Better Conversations To Have About Screens - a Happy Families Article
- Keeping your child focused on study and away from social media - a Happy Families Article
- Tweens, Teens & Screens - a Happy Families Webinar
- Digital Kids - a Happy Families Article
Find us on Facebook at Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families
Email us your questions and comments at podcasts@happyfamilies.com.au
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
time poor parent who just wants answers. Now, Hello, Welcome
back to the Happy Family's podcast. This is doctor Justin
Coulson continuing our conversation from yesterday with Associate Professor Katie
Davis from the University of Washington Information School. If you
missed yesterday's conversation, please go back and have listen to
(00:25):
that before you listen to today's discussion, because what today
is a continuation of what we were talking about. Katie,
I'd like to kick off today's continued conversation by hitting
you with a lightning rounde straight up? Can we get
your brain going really fast?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Sure, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
So a lightning round one or two word or one
or two sentence answers. We're going to move really really quickly.
What was your favorite TV show when you were young?
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Oh? I guess The Full House. That's neating me.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
And I was about to say I used to watch
that too, which is terribly for me to date myself.
Do you ever not be the calm psychology mom, the
screen expert? Do you ever not be the calm mom
when it comes to you and your one son?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Six?
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Year old Oliver.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Oh. Absolutely, So it's just Oliver and me at home
and so and I have a pretty demanding job, so
I am often extremely tired. And you know, sometimes I'm
trying as much as I can to make sure that
he's engaging with technology and all the ways that I
know are supportive of his development. But sometimes I'm exhausted,
(01:33):
or sometimes he's exhausted, and it's just okay to sit
in front of the TV and veg out a little bit,
especially when one or both of us is sick. Then
all bets are off and screen time is unlimited.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Even though he is the son of an associate professor
of psychology who knows this stuff inside and out and
has written the book, does he ever just lose and say,
but I just want my screen I don't care about
the psychological theory.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah. It's really funny how he's he He doesn't seem
to really believe that I know what I'm talking about
when I say, you know, it's time to turn it off,
or especially what he really hates is when he complains
that he's bored and I say, you know what, boredom
is great, that's the way you develop your ability to
regulate your emotions and figure out what you're going to
do next, You're going to You're developing all sorts of
(02:19):
resilience that way, and he's very unimpressed by that.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
I can imagine, what is the biggest screen challenge that
you have as an expert in technology use across the lifespan?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Right now, with my six year old, it's pretty much time.
I think he's really obsessed with Pokemon right now, and
all of his friends are equally obsessed. And I allow
him to watch two Pokemon episodes a day, and he
really struggles to get me to increase that as much
(02:54):
as possible. And this is every day, so even though
I don't budge on it every day, it's a bit
of a fight and it can get exhausting. But we
have a role in the house where he can watch
two Pokemon and then he watches two programs in German
because we just moved back from living for four years
in Germany and I want him to keep up his
(03:16):
German speaking, so he has to divide his screen time
between English and German.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
We have a nine year old daughter who is excessively
engaged with screens and especially Pokemon, and we've ended up.
We've actually set the parental lock on the television so
it switches off after an hour, because otherwise just it's
amazing when we step in and say that's enough, it's
time to switch it off, or end of the episode,
(03:42):
you've got eight minutes to go, we have these huge tantrums.
But when the TV switches itself off because the screen
time is up, she just sort of gets up off
a couch.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
And oh, it's amazing. Yeah, no, it's incredible. Some of
my colleagues at the University of Washington wrote a paper
where they they found that tantrums in the house substantially
decrease when Alexa intervenes. So instead of a parent saying
it's time to turn off the TV or turn off
(04:12):
your tablet, if Alexa says time is up, or some
other conversational agent, then the kids all of a sudden
say okay, Alexa says, so, so I'll turn it off.
It's really a little bit disconsidering.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Yeah, they intuitively know that Alexa is not going to budge,
whereas parents maut, that's right. I want to switch that
question up, and now I'll ask you what's your biggest
screen challenge for you? As an adult, as an expert
in the lifespan development and technology use.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Oh I'm so glad you asked that, because that's the thing.
Adults are struggling just as much as kids, and our
kids are seeing us struggle, and I think there's a
lot of opportunity there to own our struggles and not
just sort of, you know, become embarrassed and put them aside,
but lean into them and share these struggles with our kids.
(05:01):
So with me, I definitely struggle. You know, I'm a
bit of a workaholic, so I'm always checking my email
and I have this compulsion to respond to emails quite quickly,
and whether it's on my phone or my computer, and
Oliver certainly calls me on that if we're playing Pokemon,
which I admit I'm not always super engaged with, so
(05:25):
I find my eyes wandering to my phone a lot.
But when I do, I try to catch myself and
call attention and say, oh, you know what, Oliver, these
phones are designed to really hook us and it can
actually come develop into a good teachable moment, especially as
he gets older. So with a lot of my research
(05:46):
focuses on older tweens and teens, and as their thinking
gets more sophisticated. They're able to really understand how you know,
if you talk to them about how these devices and
applications are specifically designed to hold our attention, that can
be a really fruitful conversation because then it's not all
(06:07):
on us. It's not just we are weak because we
are succumbing to these social media apps or the phone notifications,
but actually, you know what, they're designed specifically for that purpose.
So those kinds of conversations I really encourage parents to
engage their kids around.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
I love everything that you've shared there about that. Thank
you for that offering. When I look at the impact
that technology has on our children, our adolescents, and even
on us, I think it's hard to make an argument
that the impact isn't becoming increasingly concerning over time as
technology becomes increasingly pervasive and integrated into our lives. I'd
(06:49):
like to spend the last part of our conversation talking
about two areas that this is particularly the case, mainly
for adolescents, although younger children are involved as well. Those
two areas are gaming and social media. So if I
can start with something, I am going to read you
to you for just a second if I can from
your book Technology's Child, You've said interactivity, low cost of failure,
(07:14):
clear and immediate feedback, an optimal balance between challenge and frustration,
and social interaction. These are the things that video games
can offer children. When I read that, it reminded me
so much of everything that's in mid new book, The
Pairing Revolution about children and their basic psychological needs. That's
(07:36):
a really dense sentence that I read, with many many
parts to it. Can you explain from all of your
research what you're really seeing happen when kids are engaging
with games online and how that's affecting their psychology?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Right, So, all of those qualities that you just read out,
I was as you were reading them, I thought, oh,
I wish that school were more like that, you know, totally,
if only it were that engaging for kids, and unfortunately
it isn't. But one thing that games really get right,
and it's the reason why kids and adults keep playing
(08:12):
and playing, is that they're just a little bit hard,
a little bit too hard to be completely successful all
the time, but not so hard that you become so
frustrated that you abandon it. And often school is the
complete opposite. It's either too easy or it's way too hard,
and either one of those will disengage kids. But video
(08:35):
games hit that sweet spot of being just hard enough
but not too hard. They give very clear feedback. It
just all of the things that keep us engaged. Video
games have nailed and they just know how to do it,
and so for that reason, they're extremely compelling. Also for
(08:55):
that reason is why I'm really delaying the time when
I introduce myself to video games. Not because I'm anti
video game by any means. I think there's a lot
of great, great opportunities, learning opportunities. There are games that
support exercise, well being, all sorts of different kinds of learning,
(09:16):
lots of research showing benefits of games. But however, they
are so compelling. I don't want to say addictive, because
you know, research is conflicted about whether or not we
can use that term.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Yes, just get pretty cranky about the term addiction.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Ba they do. That's a very polarizing word. But I
think it's pretty safe to say they're very compelling and
for some kids, for many kids, it's really difficult to
find a balance. And so for me, I'm just trying
to avoid it entirely until Oliver is a little bit older,
and then we're going to have to really do a
(09:54):
lot of hard work of trying to get that balance right.
And it's not something I believe that you can actually
achieve once and for all and say, Okay, I am
now engaging with video games in a balanced way. It's
sort of ada a daily act that you have to
engage in with your children because it's just too easy
(10:15):
to keep playing and playing and playing. And so yeah,
I think that there really is a danger sometimes to
let that balance get a little bit out of whack.
And so things to keep in mind are here. It
is really how long has my child been playing this game?
And what might they have been doing otherwise if they
(10:37):
hadn't been engaged with the game, Because sometimes it might
be that there actually wasn't so much great other alternatives
for them to do. Maybe they're on a plane and
there really isn't any opportunity, or maybe it's raining outside.
If you're noticing that there probably could have been some
other activities that might be good for them that they
could have been engaging, but instead they're just playing video
(10:59):
games over and over again, that's when we're starting to
think that maybe the balance needs to be recalibrated.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Yeah, it's that whole and balanced life kind of thing.
One of the things that frustrates me with video game
research is it doesn't say what I wanted to say,
Like I really want video game research to say too
much time gaming is bad for you and it lead
to all sorts of negative outcomes in your life. And
no matter how much of it I read it, it
(11:28):
doesn't know.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
It doesn't say that.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
It doesn't tell me that. It says that kids have
a great time, that they love it, that it's good
for their relationships, there's some cognitive benefit to it. Like
it's so frustrating that there's more advantages than the disadvantages
really stem from parent child conflicts, because parents want their
kids to go and live a whole and balanced life.
And even the violent.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Video game content, yeah, a lot of it does come
from that parent child conflict. A lot of it also
does come from you know, there are young people and
adults for whom if they're playing so so much, they're engaged,
you know, in video games for most of their day
or in a big part of their night. If it's
(12:09):
starting to interfere with sleep, if it's starting to interfere
with school work or social relationships outside of the game.
That's when alarm bell should be going off, and there
are certainly instances of that, but on the whole, you're right,
a lot of the research does show small but positive effects.
And then when it comes to violent video games, you know,
(12:33):
there's a camp of researchers who are pretty adamant that
there's a relationship between violent video games and aggression, and
then there's another camp that's pretty adamant that there isn't.
I think that there's very little evidence that convinces me
that playing violent video games causes kids to become violent.
(12:54):
There is research showing that perhaps right after a child
plays a violent video game, aim they're more aroused and
perhaps acting in a slightly more aggressive way. That doesn't
necessarily mean they become more aggressive, but they certainly are
more aroused. But you know, that's a far cry from
actually being violent. And so yeah, the research is a
(13:17):
little bit murky, and I think it you know, again,
we should come back to how is this affecting my
individual child? And here again I use this two step
decision tool to think about is this self directed? Are
they in control or is the game more in control?
And that's where that question can really help tease apart.
(13:40):
Is this something that where it's more likely to go
in the direction of the research that shows positive benefits
or more likely to go in the direction of the
research showing negative And then the second question is is
it community supported? Am I providing support around this experience?
Are they engaging with friends while playing games or family members?
(14:02):
You know, there's a lot of opportunity for community support
during video games, but then there's also an opportunity for
bullying and other things. So you want to take a
look at what are the social dynamics that are going
on during the scheme play those are that's can be
really important.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Sometimes it would be great if research just said what
we wanted to say. That's I know, I'm really compelled
by what you've said, though I'm reading it the same way.
Even things like empathy. There's some really cool studies that
show that when somebody walks out of playing a violent
video game, they may be a little less likely to
help somebody in the corridor that needs a hand with something.
(14:38):
But it's not like they go out and start beating
people up, or go and buy small arms and threaten people,
rob a bank, absolutely, there's no which is kind of frustrating.
Although I will say when I was a teenager, I've
got to I've got to say this, Katie. When I
was a teenager, race to play this car racing game
at the local arcade called I think it was called
Daytona five hundred or something like that, and I would
(14:59):
leave the arcade and get in my car, and I
did drive a little faster on the way home from
the arcade as I was driving.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Sure, sure, yeah, research definitely would support that. But whether
that turns you into just someone who's always racing fast
in your car, that's less supported.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, totally. And I would have to say I was
erratic for the first few minutes and then I sort
of calmed down and I was driving a human again.
And I was a young adolescent boy, which probably had
something to do with it as well, Katie. The last
thing that I just want to touch on, and we
have such limited time, is social media. I've been really
taken by the research that Jonathan Hate has been doing.
(15:37):
For those who are not familiar Jonathan Hate, he's probably
one of the world's foremost thinkers in social psychology, and
he has been working with Gene Twiney on some really
interesting ideas around kids, teenagers social media. He's got a
substack called after Babel, Katie. Have you been watching what
Jonathan Hate has been writing there, and I'd love to
(15:57):
get your take on the impact of social media and
whether or not, as he's saying, your rate of the
research is showing that it is a genuine, significant contributed
to the mental ill health that so many of adolescents
are struggling with.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Yeah. Well, so I have to say I have been
following Jonathan's work and gene twiness work, and they are
doing a great job. They have this ongoing document where
they're collecting all the research related to teen social media
use and their mental health concerns. And I'm convinced by
that research and my own research that there's definitely something
(16:35):
going on when it comes to teen social media use
and their mental health challenges. It's by no means the
sole cause. Whenever you have a mental health challenge or concern,
it's multifactorial. There are many factors involved, family relationships, pure relationships,
(16:55):
and existing vulnerability towards anxiety or depression. But what I
see in my work is that social media often acts
as an amplifier of existing challenges or struggles for teens,
and it can be a pretty profound amplifier. And so
I'm pretty convinced now that you know, at least in
the United States, where we're seeing some pretty alarming rises
(17:18):
over the last ten years in depression and even just
persistent feelings of sadness, particularly among teen girls in LGBTQ
plus youth, I am convinced that social media is having
a role in that, in addition to many factors that
are involved in young people's lives right now, not least
(17:41):
of which was the pandemic and the you know, young
people are still experiencing the pandemic and what you know,
the things that have transpired from it.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Yep, Katie, we have, during the course of our conversation
over the last two days, dropped several nuggets in terms
of how we can help our children to feel like
they have agency, to be self directed, to have the
level of community support that they need, and how we
as parents can engage with them and have hard conversations,
as you said, in that exhausting day to day business
(18:13):
of working with kids and their technology use. As much
as I'd love to do another two episodes talking further
about those solutions. What I'm going to do instead is
direct people to your book, Technologies Child, Digital Media's Role
in the Ages and Stages of Growing Up. It's a
book that takes a developmental approach and essentially says, here's
(18:34):
what's going on in kids a little, when they're medium,
when they're big, and even when they're grown ups in
terms of their technology use and what we can do
to help them. I found the book immensely helpful, as
somebody who has a background in psychology and has been
talking about this for a long time. I underlined and
made so many notes on what you've written. The science
is fantastic, and I just love the way you've made
(18:54):
it so accessible for parents. Thank you for your book,
and thanks for the conversation.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Well, thank you so much. I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Katie Davis is an associate professor at the University of
Washington Information School and the author of the brand new book,
Technologies Child Digital Media's Role in the Ages and Stages
of Growing Up. The Happy Family's podcast is produced by
Justin Ruland for Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer.
For More information about Technology's Child you can see the
show notes and also check out Katie's website katidavisresearch dot com.
(19:25):
If you go there and sign up for Katie's newsletter,
she'll be able to send you a weekly tidbit of
research and ideas for how you can manage to tech
better in your home with your kids. That's Katidavisresearch dot com.
Sign up for the newsletter there
It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
time poor parent who just wants answers. Now, Hello, Welcome
back to the Happy Family's podcast. This is doctor Justin
Coulson continuing our conversation from yesterday with Associate Professor Katie
Davis from the University of Washington Information School. If you
missed yesterday's conversation, please go back and have listen to
(00:25):
that before you listen to today's discussion, because what today
is a continuation of what we were talking about. Katie,
I'd like to kick off today's continued conversation by hitting
you with a lightning rounde straight up? Can we get
your brain going really fast?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Sure, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
So a lightning round one or two word or one
or two sentence answers. We're going to move really really quickly.
What was your favorite TV show when you were young?
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Oh? I guess The Full House. That's neating me.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
And I was about to say I used to watch
that too, which is terribly for me to date myself.
Do you ever not be the calm psychology mom, the
screen expert? Do you ever not be the calm mom
when it comes to you and your one son?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Six?
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Year old Oliver.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Oh. Absolutely, So it's just Oliver and me at home
and so and I have a pretty demanding job, so
I am often extremely tired. And you know, sometimes I'm
trying as much as I can to make sure that
he's engaging with technology and all the ways that I
know are supportive of his development. But sometimes I'm exhausted,
(01:33):
or sometimes he's exhausted, and it's just okay to sit
in front of the TV and veg out a little bit,
especially when one or both of us is sick. Then
all bets are off and screen time is unlimited.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Even though he is the son of an associate professor
of psychology who knows this stuff inside and out and
has written the book, does he ever just lose and say,
but I just want my screen I don't care about
the psychological theory.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah. It's really funny how he's he He doesn't seem
to really believe that I know what I'm talking about
when I say, you know, it's time to turn it off,
or especially what he really hates is when he complains
that he's bored and I say, you know what, boredom
is great, that's the way you develop your ability to
regulate your emotions and figure out what you're going to
do next, You're going to You're developing all sorts of
(02:19):
resilience that way, and he's very unimpressed by that.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
I can imagine, what is the biggest screen challenge that
you have as an expert in technology use across the lifespan?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Right now, with my six year old, it's pretty much time.
I think he's really obsessed with Pokemon right now, and
all of his friends are equally obsessed. And I allow
him to watch two Pokemon episodes a day, and he
really struggles to get me to increase that as much
(02:54):
as possible. And this is every day, so even though
I don't budge on it every day, it's a bit
of a fight and it can get exhausting. But we
have a role in the house where he can watch
two Pokemon and then he watches two programs in German
because we just moved back from living for four years
in Germany and I want him to keep up his
(03:16):
German speaking, so he has to divide his screen time
between English and German.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
We have a nine year old daughter who is excessively
engaged with screens and especially Pokemon, and we've ended up.
We've actually set the parental lock on the television so
it switches off after an hour, because otherwise just it's
amazing when we step in and say that's enough, it's
time to switch it off, or end of the episode,
(03:42):
you've got eight minutes to go, we have these huge tantrums.
But when the TV switches itself off because the screen
time is up, she just sort of gets up off
a couch.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
And oh, it's amazing. Yeah, no, it's incredible. Some of
my colleagues at the University of Washington wrote a paper
where they they found that tantrums in the house substantially
decrease when Alexa intervenes. So instead of a parent saying
it's time to turn off the TV or turn off
(04:12):
your tablet, if Alexa says time is up, or some
other conversational agent, then the kids all of a sudden
say okay, Alexa says, so, so I'll turn it off.
It's really a little bit disconsidering.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Yeah, they intuitively know that Alexa is not going to budge,
whereas parents maut, that's right. I want to switch that
question up, and now I'll ask you what's your biggest
screen challenge for you? As an adult, as an expert
in the lifespan development and technology use.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Oh I'm so glad you asked that, because that's the thing.
Adults are struggling just as much as kids, and our
kids are seeing us struggle, and I think there's a
lot of opportunity there to own our struggles and not
just sort of, you know, become embarrassed and put them aside,
but lean into them and share these struggles with our kids.
(05:01):
So with me, I definitely struggle. You know, I'm a
bit of a workaholic, so I'm always checking my email
and I have this compulsion to respond to emails quite quickly,
and whether it's on my phone or my computer, and
Oliver certainly calls me on that if we're playing Pokemon,
which I admit I'm not always super engaged with, so
(05:25):
I find my eyes wandering to my phone a lot.
But when I do, I try to catch myself and
call attention and say, oh, you know what, Oliver, these
phones are designed to really hook us and it can
actually come develop into a good teachable moment, especially as
he gets older. So with a lot of my research
(05:46):
focuses on older tweens and teens, and as their thinking
gets more sophisticated. They're able to really understand how you know,
if you talk to them about how these devices and
applications are specifically designed to hold our attention, that can
be a really fruitful conversation because then it's not all
(06:07):
on us. It's not just we are weak because we
are succumbing to these social media apps or the phone notifications,
but actually, you know what, they're designed specifically for that purpose.
So those kinds of conversations I really encourage parents to
engage their kids around.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
I love everything that you've shared there about that. Thank
you for that offering. When I look at the impact
that technology has on our children, our adolescents, and even
on us, I think it's hard to make an argument
that the impact isn't becoming increasingly concerning over time as
technology becomes increasingly pervasive and integrated into our lives. I'd
(06:49):
like to spend the last part of our conversation talking
about two areas that this is particularly the case, mainly
for adolescents, although younger children are involved as well. Those
two areas are gaming and social media. So if I
can start with something, I am going to read you
to you for just a second if I can from
your book Technology's Child, You've said interactivity, low cost of failure,
(07:14):
clear and immediate feedback, an optimal balance between challenge and frustration,
and social interaction. These are the things that video games
can offer children. When I read that, it reminded me
so much of everything that's in mid new book, The
Pairing Revolution about children and their basic psychological needs. That's
(07:36):
a really dense sentence that I read, with many many
parts to it. Can you explain from all of your
research what you're really seeing happen when kids are engaging
with games online and how that's affecting their psychology?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Right, So, all of those qualities that you just read out,
I was as you were reading them, I thought, oh,
I wish that school were more like that, you know, totally,
if only it were that engaging for kids, and unfortunately
it isn't. But one thing that games really get right,
and it's the reason why kids and adults keep playing
(08:12):
and playing, is that they're just a little bit hard,
a little bit too hard to be completely successful all
the time, but not so hard that you become so
frustrated that you abandon it. And often school is the
complete opposite. It's either too easy or it's way too hard,
and either one of those will disengage kids. But video
(08:35):
games hit that sweet spot of being just hard enough
but not too hard. They give very clear feedback. It
just all of the things that keep us engaged. Video
games have nailed and they just know how to do it,
and so for that reason, they're extremely compelling. Also for
(08:55):
that reason is why I'm really delaying the time when
I introduce myself to video games. Not because I'm anti
video game by any means. I think there's a lot
of great, great opportunities, learning opportunities. There are games that
support exercise, well being, all sorts of different kinds of learning,
(09:16):
lots of research showing benefits of games. But however, they
are so compelling. I don't want to say addictive, because
you know, research is conflicted about whether or not we
can use that term.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Yes, just get pretty cranky about the term addiction.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Ba they do. That's a very polarizing word. But I
think it's pretty safe to say they're very compelling and
for some kids, for many kids, it's really difficult to
find a balance. And so for me, I'm just trying
to avoid it entirely until Oliver is a little bit older,
and then we're going to have to really do a
(09:54):
lot of hard work of trying to get that balance right.
And it's not something I believe that you can actually
achieve once and for all and say, Okay, I am
now engaging with video games in a balanced way. It's
sort of ada a daily act that you have to
engage in with your children because it's just too easy
(10:15):
to keep playing and playing and playing. And so yeah,
I think that there really is a danger sometimes to
let that balance get a little bit out of whack.
And so things to keep in mind are here. It
is really how long has my child been playing this game?
And what might they have been doing otherwise if they
(10:37):
hadn't been engaged with the game, Because sometimes it might
be that there actually wasn't so much great other alternatives
for them to do. Maybe they're on a plane and
there really isn't any opportunity, or maybe it's raining outside.
If you're noticing that there probably could have been some
other activities that might be good for them that they
could have been engaging, but instead they're just playing video
(10:59):
games over and over again, that's when we're starting to
think that maybe the balance needs to be recalibrated.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Yeah, it's that whole and balanced life kind of thing.
One of the things that frustrates me with video game
research is it doesn't say what I wanted to say,
Like I really want video game research to say too
much time gaming is bad for you and it lead
to all sorts of negative outcomes in your life. And
no matter how much of it I read it, it
(11:28):
doesn't know.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
It doesn't say that.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
It doesn't tell me that. It says that kids have
a great time, that they love it, that it's good
for their relationships, there's some cognitive benefit to it. Like
it's so frustrating that there's more advantages than the disadvantages
really stem from parent child conflicts, because parents want their
kids to go and live a whole and balanced life.
And even the violent.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Video game content, yeah, a lot of it does come
from that parent child conflict. A lot of it also
does come from you know, there are young people and
adults for whom if they're playing so so much, they're engaged,
you know, in video games for most of their day
or in a big part of their night. If it's
(12:09):
starting to interfere with sleep, if it's starting to interfere
with school work or social relationships outside of the game.
That's when alarm bell should be going off, and there
are certainly instances of that, but on the whole, you're right,
a lot of the research does show small but positive effects.
And then when it comes to violent video games, you know,
(12:33):
there's a camp of researchers who are pretty adamant that
there's a relationship between violent video games and aggression, and
then there's another camp that's pretty adamant that there isn't.
I think that there's very little evidence that convinces me
that playing violent video games causes kids to become violent.
(12:54):
There is research showing that perhaps right after a child
plays a violent video game, aim they're more aroused and
perhaps acting in a slightly more aggressive way. That doesn't
necessarily mean they become more aggressive, but they certainly are
more aroused. But you know, that's a far cry from
actually being violent. And so yeah, the research is a
(13:17):
little bit murky, and I think it you know, again,
we should come back to how is this affecting my
individual child? And here again I use this two step
decision tool to think about is this self directed? Are
they in control or is the game more in control?
And that's where that question can really help tease apart.
(13:40):
Is this something that where it's more likely to go
in the direction of the research that shows positive benefits
or more likely to go in the direction of the
research showing negative And then the second question is is
it community supported? Am I providing support around this experience?
Are they engaging with friends while playing games or family members?
(14:02):
You know, there's a lot of opportunity for community support
during video games, but then there's also an opportunity for
bullying and other things. So you want to take a
look at what are the social dynamics that are going
on during the scheme play those are that's can be
really important.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Sometimes it would be great if research just said what
we wanted to say. That's I know, I'm really compelled
by what you've said, though I'm reading it the same way.
Even things like empathy. There's some really cool studies that
show that when somebody walks out of playing a violent
video game, they may be a little less likely to
help somebody in the corridor that needs a hand with something.
(14:38):
But it's not like they go out and start beating
people up, or go and buy small arms and threaten people,
rob a bank, absolutely, there's no which is kind of frustrating.
Although I will say when I was a teenager, I've
got to I've got to say this, Katie. When I
was a teenager, race to play this car racing game
at the local arcade called I think it was called
Daytona five hundred or something like that, and I would
(14:59):
leave the arcade and get in my car, and I
did drive a little faster on the way home from
the arcade as I was driving.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Sure, sure, yeah, research definitely would support that. But whether
that turns you into just someone who's always racing fast
in your car, that's less supported.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, totally. And I would have to say I was
erratic for the first few minutes and then I sort
of calmed down and I was driving a human again.
And I was a young adolescent boy, which probably had
something to do with it as well, Katie. The last
thing that I just want to touch on, and we
have such limited time, is social media. I've been really
taken by the research that Jonathan Hate has been doing.
(15:37):
For those who are not familiar Jonathan Hate, he's probably
one of the world's foremost thinkers in social psychology, and
he has been working with Gene Twiney on some really
interesting ideas around kids, teenagers social media. He's got a
substack called after Babel, Katie. Have you been watching what
Jonathan Hate has been writing there, and I'd love to
(15:57):
get your take on the impact of social media and
whether or not, as he's saying, your rate of the
research is showing that it is a genuine, significant contributed
to the mental ill health that so many of adolescents
are struggling with.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Yeah. Well, so I have to say I have been
following Jonathan's work and gene twiness work, and they are
doing a great job. They have this ongoing document where
they're collecting all the research related to teen social media
use and their mental health concerns. And I'm convinced by
that research and my own research that there's definitely something
(16:35):
going on when it comes to teen social media use
and their mental health challenges. It's by no means the
sole cause. Whenever you have a mental health challenge or concern,
it's multifactorial. There are many factors involved, family relationships, pure relationships,
(16:55):
and existing vulnerability towards anxiety or depression. But what I
see in my work is that social media often acts
as an amplifier of existing challenges or struggles for teens,
and it can be a pretty profound amplifier. And so
I'm pretty convinced now that you know, at least in
the United States, where we're seeing some pretty alarming rises
(17:18):
over the last ten years in depression and even just
persistent feelings of sadness, particularly among teen girls in LGBTQ
plus youth, I am convinced that social media is having
a role in that, in addition to many factors that
are involved in young people's lives right now, not least
(17:41):
of which was the pandemic and the you know, young
people are still experiencing the pandemic and what you know,
the things that have transpired from it.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Yep, Katie, we have, during the course of our conversation
over the last two days, dropped several nuggets in terms
of how we can help our children to feel like
they have agency, to be self directed, to have the
level of community support that they need, and how we
as parents can engage with them and have hard conversations,
as you said, in that exhausting day to day business
(18:13):
of working with kids and their technology use. As much
as I'd love to do another two episodes talking further
about those solutions. What I'm going to do instead is
direct people to your book, Technologies Child, Digital Media's Role
in the Ages and Stages of Growing Up. It's a
book that takes a developmental approach and essentially says, here's
(18:34):
what's going on in kids a little, when they're medium,
when they're big, and even when they're grown ups in
terms of their technology use and what we can do
to help them. I found the book immensely helpful, as
somebody who has a background in psychology and has been
talking about this for a long time. I underlined and
made so many notes on what you've written. The science
is fantastic, and I just love the way you've made
(18:54):
it so accessible for parents. Thank you for your book,
and thanks for the conversation.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Well, thank you so much. I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Katie Davis is an associate professor at the University of
Washington Information School and the author of the brand new book,
Technologies Child Digital Media's Role in the Ages and Stages
of Growing Up. The Happy Family's podcast is produced by
Justin Ruland for Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer.
For More information about Technology's Child you can see the
show notes and also check out Katie's website katidavisresearch dot com.
(19:25):
If you go there and sign up for Katie's newsletter,
she'll be able to send you a weekly tidbit of
research and ideas for how you can manage to tech
better in your home with your kids. That's Katidavisresearch dot com.
Sign up for the newsletter there
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.