August 12, 2025 • 18 mins
Bullying doesn’t just hurt feelings — it can rewire a child’s brain. In this powerful conversation for No Bullying Week, I speak with Professor Donna Cross, one of Australia’s leading bullying experts, about the profound short- and long-term impacts of bullying, why some children are targeted, and the surprising protective factors that can help shield kids from harm. You’ll learn what’s really going on in the minds of both bullies and their targets — and how parents can build a network of support that keeps kids safer at school and online.
KEY POINTS
- Bullying can trigger long-term neurological and genetic changes through repeated stress responses.
- Effects can be similar to those seen in children experiencing abuse.
- High-risk factors for being bullied include loneliness, visible differences, lack of supportive bystanders, and not being well known or liked by teachers.
- Protective factors include multiple friendship groups, strong peer relationships, a culture of kindness, and supportive school environments.
- Social and physical environments — from seating arrangements to equipment availability — can influence bullying dynamics.
- Parents can play a key role by facilitating diverse friendship opportunities and monitoring online activity.
QUOTE OF THE EPISODE
"Probably the most protective factor is your child’s relationships with other young people — especially having multiple friendship groups." – Professor Donna Cross
RESOURCES
- Professor Donna Cross’s research and publications
- Happy Families resources on bullying prevention and response
- When Your Child is Bullied: A Calm, Practical Guide for Parents [HF Article]
- Rebecca Sparrow (Australia's "Friendship Whisperer") - resources for parents and kids to help build, repair, and strengthen friendships.
- Friendship resources for schools and educators from Rebecca Sparrow.
- No Bullying Week: "Be Bold. Be Kind. Speak Up."
- Kid's Helpline for Bullying
- Spotlight on cyberbullying - a resource for schools
- The eSafety Commissioner's Guide to Cyberbullying
ACTION STEPS FOR PARENTS
- Help your child build multiple, diverse friendship groups.
- Encourage empathy and kindness at home and in school conversations.
- Partner with your child’s school to promote a positive social environment.
- Teach your child how to respond calmly to provocation.
- Monitor and guide your child’s online interactions to reduce cyberbullying risk.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
All this week on the Happy Families Podcast, we're talking bullying, well,
how we can stop bullying, what we can do to
prevent bullying, and especially unfortunately, because the world is not perfect,
how we can respond if our child is either a
bully or being bullied.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
It's No Bullying Week.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
And up next we're going to have a conversation with
Professor Donnacross, one of Australia's most esteemed and.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Highly regarded bullying experts.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Stay with us, okay, this is the Happy Families Podcast,
Real parenting solutions every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
My name is doctor Justin Coulson.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Doctor Donna Cross is a behavioral scientist and emeritus Professor
at the University of Western Australia, Honorary Distinguished Fellow at
the Kids Research Institute Australia and Donna a couple of
years ago was appointed as the inaugural New South Wales
Chief Behavior Advisor, which means Donna is working in the
New South Wales government to do something about prevention and
(01:03):
safety when it comes to bullying. Just before I bring
Donna in, I've just got a highlight of all the
people that I could talk to about bullying. Donna was
at the top of my list when I started to
look around and think about who we could talk to.
Donna is literally an internationally renowned academic. She's worked on education,
research and policy in the US, Canada, Finland, Norway, Sweden,
den March, Japan, Israel, and a range of other places,
(01:26):
and has received more awards than we have time for
me to identify and discuss.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Professor cross An Honor.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
What a delight to be able to spend fifteen or
so minutes with you talking about bullying today. Thank you
for being on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Thanks very much, Justin, It's great to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Okay, let me ask you a couple of basic questions
then we'll get into some more serious stuff. First one,
we know that we're supposed to be concerned about bullying,
but can you just outline a little bit about why
what happens to a child when they are bullied?
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Sadly, there is evidence to suggest that of all of
the effects that probably all of us have known for years,
that the children will drop off academically. It affects their
well being, It obviously affects their social development in terms
of their levels of trust. We know it's intergenerational and
intra generational, and that means that it's likely if you've
(02:17):
been targeted, or if you're someone who bullies, if someone
doesn't help you, it will continue through your life that behavior,
that sense of loss of trust, or that bullying is
an okay way to treat people. It's also intergenerational because
parents who have bullied are more likely to have children
who bully, and similarly, parents who have been targeted are
(02:40):
more likely to have children who are targeted. I think
the most interesting element justin is the work that we
now have regarding its effects on genetics. So epigenetics is
the study of how your environment affects your genetic development,
that influences your DNA, influences your neural development, and the
(03:01):
most recent science is demonstrating that, in fact, it can
change how your brain is structured from the successive exposure.
So it's so worth your attention. Thanks so much for
picking this issue to address this week.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Let me ask you about the epigenetic issues the brain
structure changes. Can you go a little deeper on that?
How does a child's brain change when they are subject
to repeated, consistent, ongoing bullying? And I presume there's a
dose response that is, the more bullying occurs, the greater
the changes. If that's correct, what are those changes and
(03:35):
how do they impact their lives?
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Yes, the neuroscience sits behind bullying is so interesting, and
as you suggested justin it is a dose response outcome.
The more you use a neural pathway, the thing it becomes,
and the more automatic the response. So one of the
neural changes is that if you are successful in responding
(04:00):
to someone who bullies, that pathways thinking. But if you
don't have the appropriate skills and you are defaulting to
a cortisole response, for example, you are setting up a
sort of a fight and flight response that is more automatic,
and it goes back to trauma based responses. In fact,
(04:23):
some researchers have argued that the changes we see in
the brain of a child who's been bullied over a
period of time is not unlike the changes we see
in a child who has been abused by a parent
or somewhere else. So child abuse and bullying is very
similar in terms of the traumatic long term change. Cortisole
responses being triggered to respond in a certain way when
(04:46):
somebody shouts, the sorts of ongoing challenges that we have
in that area. So it's so worth the time and
attention as parents and teachers and so on that we
address this issue thoroughly.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah, donad When I hear say that, my mind immediately
and tell me if I'm right or wrong here. I
think straight away of the downstream effects of bullying long term,
so adrenaline overdrive, high levels of cortisol. These are stress hormones.
What I'm seeing is down the road, a child who
is bullied is much more likely to be highly reactive,
(05:18):
highly anxious, and either aggressive or stressed, and just trying
to do everything they can to stay away from any
hostile situations. As they get older, my sense is that
they're not going to be highly adaptive and communicative in
challenging moments, whether it's when they're older and they're married
and raising their own kids, or having some relationship to
(05:41):
stress or anything like that. My sense is that these patterns,
these ways of responding distress become maladaptive. I don't know
if there's any long term research in this area, but
to me, how does that sit for you? What's your
reaction or response to that?
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Yes, well, certainly those maladaptive responses are of that sort
of intergenerational and intra generational change that we see. It
continues over your life, you model these behaviors for your
children going forward. I think what's really important justin is
there's things we can do about it. You know, those
changes occur if there's no help, or there's no intervention,
or there's no prevention. You know, I am skilled to
(06:19):
respond to that event when it occurs, unless likely to
have cortisol response, and unless likely to have the kind
of neurological response that it's more automated. So in us
talking about this, I'm so nervous that we don't want
listeners to think, oh my goodness, this is dreadful, there's
nothing we can do, and it's so serious. It is serious,
(06:40):
but there are definitely actions that can be taken to
protect children.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
I have a couple of other fairly quick, almost lightning
round style questions to just cover off that I think
are really important for setting the foundation for how we
can intervene later. The first one of those is, what
have you seen in research that puts children and young
people at the greatest risk of being bullied?
Speaker 3 (07:10):
When a child wants to bully somebody, they look for
a certain profile. They mostly look for a lonely child
and a child that won't have an uprising of bystanders
around them. Unfortunately, a child who wants to bully will
fire this bullying at a lot of different children and
wait for the response that they want most of all,
(07:30):
and then concentrate their bullying on that child or group
of children. So, in addition to them being lonely or
not having a group of friends who'd stand up for them. Really, sadly,
and I hate saying this out loud, but sadly it's true,
it's also a child who's not well known by their
teacher and possibly not well liked by their teacher, so
(07:52):
again giving you the extreme profile. But they are two
really important factors they also look for. He gives them
a response, so gets angry or gets upset. So one
of the strategies, of course, is how do we help
kids to feel calm. They might be crumbling inside but
on the outside, stay firm until you can get out
(08:13):
of the situation. In addition to that, children who have
some difference are often targeted so unfairly, but that is
an element as well, and I think when we think
about the child who's doing the bullying. They're often looking
to try and assert their power, and they tell us
through our research that they're looking for ways to demonstrate
(08:37):
the quality of their relationships and to build popularity. So
they're looking to showcase their work and are looking for
an audience. So often they will try to do this
where there are lots of other children watching, and where
those other children won't take a stance against the behavior
they're engaging in.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
When you go through that list gives a response not
known and liked and diference as a couple of thoughts
pop up, and I just loved you to maybe elaborate
on a couple of them. Initially, when you said not
known or liked by the teacher, my immediate thought was
children who come from disadvantaged backgrounds are at the greatest
(09:16):
risk here because they're often the least understood. They're often
the most most likely to struggle with discipline and self
control and situational awareness in the classroom. They're much more
likely to have outbursts.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Do I need to be corrected on that?
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Or does that sit about right for you politically and
correct as it probably is.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Well. Certainly, when you look at aggregated data. Children who
come from more disadvantage backgrounds are more likely to be bullied. Now,
I don't think that they necessarily have a skills deficit,
but they might be bullied for their economic state. They
might not have the fanciest shoes or whatever that might be.
(09:59):
And also so they have less resources and support around them.
And maybe their disadvantages come from having a parent who
has mental health difficulty, so not having that level of support.
So yes, there are certainly subgroups of children. Girls are
bullied more than boys are. For example, boys are more
likely to bully than girls. We know that children in
(10:20):
regional areas are more likely to be bullied than kids
in metropolitan areas. We know that Aboriginal children are much
more likely to be bullied, but non Aboriginal cold children
from different cultural and linguistic backgrounds are often more likely
to be targeted, and children who are experiencing some disability
sadly are also more likely to be targeted.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
I feel like I need to ask why and why
and why again to every single thing that you've just highlighted.
Time will get the better of us today for that,
But just hearing that breakdown, I remember looking at some
research some years ago. You were talking before about differences
children who shop with differences, and you've just listed a
handful of them. But I'm also thinking about weight differences, neurodiversity,
and neurodivergent challenges. I remember somebody talking about if your
(11:06):
lunch box smells different, right, if you've got a different
cultural or ethnic heritage and therefore you're bringing different food
to school and everyone smells it goes oh, all of
a sudden, that's a point of difference that they can
pick on. It seems like if somebody wants to bully,
they're surrounded by opportunities to find somebody somewhere, no shortage
at all.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Unless there is there are bystanders or witnesses who are
willing to step up, say something, Sit next to the
child who's alone. You can really shift norms in schools around.
And if somebody's been picked on for what they've got
in their lunchbox, what if everyone else then laughed and said,
of course, you know, stood up for that person who's
(11:47):
been targeted. We know that that will extinguish bullying faster
than an adult saying anything, and is much more likely
to have a sustained effect because they're not getting the
popularity response looking for so we can shut it down.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Bullying is about status, right, It's just about me looking
better than somebody else.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Yes, kids, certainly, status is part of it, but it's
being popular. I want other kids to be popular. And
when you think I wanted popular, relative other children, and
it's a serious house of cards. And the child who
is bullying knows that. You know, we've interviewed children who
bully regularly. They know that they, in a sense, need
(12:29):
to keep bullying to keep their friends. Use that term
loosely around them because perhaps the friends are so afraid
that if they step away, they will be targeted next. So, yes,
its status is part of it.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Difference between being popular and being liked sort of stands
out to me.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
There.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
You can be very popular, but it's on a flimsy foundation.
Being liked means you've got people who actually care for
you and are interested in you. Donna, you've highlighted the
importance of witnesses bystanders. Somebody who says, hey, old and
sit beside you. Someone who says, can I have what
you've got in your lunchbox tomorrow? So that we've both
got sticky lunchboxes.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Or whatever it is.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
What other protective factors would reduce the likelihood prevent children
young people from being bullied.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
And probably the most protective factor is your relationships with
other young people. So I've already mentioned that a lonely
child sadly is a target. So from a parent's perspective,
you know social architecture enabling your kids to make multiple
friendship groups, and that multiple friendship groups is really important.
(13:42):
That I don't just have one very best friend, because
that makes me quite vulnerable because that friendship move school,
They'll be sick a day at school, then I'm suddenly
a lonely child. So in independent schools, for example, we
see children can sometimes join that school in kindergarten non
government schools and stay with that same group of friends
(14:03):
right way through to the end of school, without ever
having the ability to learn how to make friends. They
just can be around that same cohort. So it's important
that your children have practice in how to make friends,
how to walk up to somebody they don't know, start
a conversations, find something similar to chat about, or do
something with them. So a very important protective factor is
(14:27):
how to make friends, and how to make friends that
are reciprocated identifying people who have something in common. Other
protective factors are things like being in a school environment
that has a really clear ethos around how we treat
each other. A focus on kindness and what that looks like.
(14:48):
Caring for each other helps to build empathy. I'm very
protective if I'm an empathetic person because I'm less likely
to bully knowing that it could hurt somebody else. So
building that quality is important as well. Other protective factors
in addition to being around peers factors in our environment.
(15:12):
So a school structure can facilitate or prevent bullying by
the way that it's designed. So think about seating in
a school. If there's only five seats, five children will
sit on those and the rest of the children in
the group have to stand. There's a certain amount of
power around that allocation. Or if there's only two basketballs
(15:32):
out during the lunchtime break, most basketballs become very powerful
in terms of who's holding them. So ensuring that there's
enough equipment and the spaces are set up to encourage
kids to talk to each other and engage. So we
can give about physical environment here. Previously I was talking
about the social environment. These things are so critical now
(15:53):
for parents. There's lots of protective factors that parents could
engage in that I've already hinted at. One is that
social architecture, play playdates, inviting over different friends at different
times to help build that relationship with your children, helping
your children to have different friendship groups. So, for example,
(16:13):
my children obviously have their friendship group at school, but
they also have separate friendship groups where they learn music,
and they have separate friendship groups where they play football
or whatever sports they might engage in. And that's really
important to help kids have a good sense of themselves
if there's someone who can have lots of friends and
friends who are still standing when others start to fall away.
(16:36):
And then of course online bullying is another issue which
you might want to get into shortly, and there's certain
things that are very protective, like parent monitoring that keep
children safer online and obviously produce the likelihood of being
cyber bullyted.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
This has been so comprehensive and so useful, and I
feel like we've barely scratched the surface.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Donna.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
I know that I said that we would have a
short chat because this is a podcast that is for
time poor parents, But because it's such an important week,
because there's so much emphasis being put on no bullying
this week, would you mind chatting with me again tomorrow
so we can talk about the ubiquity of bullying and
what to do if your child is bullied.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
I'm very really happy to do that.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Just thank you, amazing. This has just been so valuable
and so useful. Tomorrow we continue this conversation with Professor
Donna Cross about bullying for our No Bullying Week.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
I can't wait. I can't wait to find out what
we're going.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
To talk about tomorrow and how we can respond when
our children are being bullied. I've been through it with
a couple of my kids. It's just torture as a
parent when you think you're doing everything right. You've got
all the protective factors in place, the school's telling you
all the right stuff, and it's still not working. So
we'll unpack that tomorrow on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
The Happy Families.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Podcast is produced by Justin Ruhland from Bridge Media. Mim
Hammond's supports with admin and research help. If you'd like
more info and more resources, we will link to a
whole range of Donna's me cereal and a whole lot
more about how to deal with and respond to bullying,
and you can also visit happyfamilies dot com dot au
All this week on the Happy Families Podcast, we're talking bullying, well,
how we can stop bullying, what we can do to
prevent bullying, and especially unfortunately, because the world is not perfect,
how we can respond if our child is either a
bully or being bullied.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
It's No Bullying Week.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
And up next we're going to have a conversation with
Professor Donnacross, one of Australia's most esteemed and.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Highly regarded bullying experts.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Stay with us, okay, this is the Happy Families Podcast,
Real parenting solutions every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
My name is doctor Justin Coulson.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Doctor Donna Cross is a behavioral scientist and emeritus Professor
at the University of Western Australia, Honorary Distinguished Fellow at
the Kids Research Institute Australia and Donna a couple of
years ago was appointed as the inaugural New South Wales
Chief Behavior Advisor, which means Donna is working in the
New South Wales government to do something about prevention and
(01:03):
safety when it comes to bullying. Just before I bring
Donna in, I've just got a highlight of all the
people that I could talk to about bullying. Donna was
at the top of my list when I started to
look around and think about who we could talk to.
Donna is literally an internationally renowned academic. She's worked on education,
research and policy in the US, Canada, Finland, Norway, Sweden,
den March, Japan, Israel, and a range of other places,
(01:26):
and has received more awards than we have time for
me to identify and discuss.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Professor cross An Honor.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
What a delight to be able to spend fifteen or
so minutes with you talking about bullying today. Thank you
for being on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Thanks very much, Justin, It's great to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Okay, let me ask you a couple of basic questions
then we'll get into some more serious stuff. First one,
we know that we're supposed to be concerned about bullying,
but can you just outline a little bit about why
what happens to a child when they are bullied?
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Sadly, there is evidence to suggest that of all of
the effects that probably all of us have known for years,
that the children will drop off academically. It affects their
well being, It obviously affects their social development in terms
of their levels of trust. We know it's intergenerational and
intra generational, and that means that it's likely if you've
(02:17):
been targeted, or if you're someone who bullies, if someone
doesn't help you, it will continue through your life that behavior,
that sense of loss of trust, or that bullying is
an okay way to treat people. It's also intergenerational because
parents who have bullied are more likely to have children
who bully, and similarly, parents who have been targeted are
(02:40):
more likely to have children who are targeted. I think
the most interesting element justin is the work that we
now have regarding its effects on genetics. So epigenetics is
the study of how your environment affects your genetic development,
that influences your DNA, influences your neural development, and the
(03:01):
most recent science is demonstrating that, in fact, it can
change how your brain is structured from the successive exposure.
So it's so worth your attention. Thanks so much for
picking this issue to address this week.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Let me ask you about the epigenetic issues the brain
structure changes. Can you go a little deeper on that?
How does a child's brain change when they are subject
to repeated, consistent, ongoing bullying? And I presume there's a
dose response that is, the more bullying occurs, the greater
the changes. If that's correct, what are those changes and
(03:35):
how do they impact their lives?
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Yes, the neuroscience sits behind bullying is so interesting, and
as you suggested justin it is a dose response outcome.
The more you use a neural pathway, the thing it becomes,
and the more automatic the response. So one of the
neural changes is that if you are successful in responding
(04:00):
to someone who bullies, that pathways thinking. But if you
don't have the appropriate skills and you are defaulting to
a cortisole response, for example, you are setting up a
sort of a fight and flight response that is more automatic,
and it goes back to trauma based responses. In fact,
(04:23):
some researchers have argued that the changes we see in
the brain of a child who's been bullied over a
period of time is not unlike the changes we see
in a child who has been abused by a parent
or somewhere else. So child abuse and bullying is very
similar in terms of the traumatic long term change. Cortisole
responses being triggered to respond in a certain way when
(04:46):
somebody shouts, the sorts of ongoing challenges that we have
in that area. So it's so worth the time and
attention as parents and teachers and so on that we
address this issue thoroughly.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah, donad When I hear say that, my mind immediately
and tell me if I'm right or wrong here. I
think straight away of the downstream effects of bullying long term,
so adrenaline overdrive, high levels of cortisol. These are stress hormones.
What I'm seeing is down the road, a child who
is bullied is much more likely to be highly reactive,
(05:18):
highly anxious, and either aggressive or stressed, and just trying
to do everything they can to stay away from any
hostile situations. As they get older, my sense is that
they're not going to be highly adaptive and communicative in
challenging moments, whether it's when they're older and they're married
and raising their own kids, or having some relationship to
(05:41):
stress or anything like that. My sense is that these patterns,
these ways of responding distress become maladaptive. I don't know
if there's any long term research in this area, but
to me, how does that sit for you? What's your
reaction or response to that?
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Yes, well, certainly those maladaptive responses are of that sort
of intergenerational and intra generational change that we see. It
continues over your life, you model these behaviors for your
children going forward. I think what's really important justin is
there's things we can do about it. You know, those
changes occur if there's no help, or there's no intervention,
or there's no prevention. You know, I am skilled to
(06:19):
respond to that event when it occurs, unless likely to
have cortisol response, and unless likely to have the kind
of neurological response that it's more automated. So in us
talking about this, I'm so nervous that we don't want
listeners to think, oh my goodness, this is dreadful, there's
nothing we can do, and it's so serious. It is serious,
(06:40):
but there are definitely actions that can be taken to
protect children.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
I have a couple of other fairly quick, almost lightning
round style questions to just cover off that I think
are really important for setting the foundation for how we
can intervene later. The first one of those is, what
have you seen in research that puts children and young
people at the greatest risk of being bullied?
Speaker 3 (07:10):
When a child wants to bully somebody, they look for
a certain profile. They mostly look for a lonely child
and a child that won't have an uprising of bystanders
around them. Unfortunately, a child who wants to bully will
fire this bullying at a lot of different children and
wait for the response that they want most of all,
(07:30):
and then concentrate their bullying on that child or group
of children. So, in addition to them being lonely or
not having a group of friends who'd stand up for them. Really, sadly,
and I hate saying this out loud, but sadly it's true,
it's also a child who's not well known by their
teacher and possibly not well liked by their teacher, so
(07:52):
again giving you the extreme profile. But they are two
really important factors they also look for. He gives them
a response, so gets angry or gets upset. So one
of the strategies, of course, is how do we help
kids to feel calm. They might be crumbling inside but
on the outside, stay firm until you can get out
(08:13):
of the situation. In addition to that, children who have
some difference are often targeted so unfairly, but that is
an element as well, and I think when we think
about the child who's doing the bullying. They're often looking
to try and assert their power, and they tell us
through our research that they're looking for ways to demonstrate
(08:37):
the quality of their relationships and to build popularity. So
they're looking to showcase their work and are looking for
an audience. So often they will try to do this
where there are lots of other children watching, and where
those other children won't take a stance against the behavior
they're engaging in.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
When you go through that list gives a response not
known and liked and diference as a couple of thoughts
pop up, and I just loved you to maybe elaborate
on a couple of them. Initially, when you said not
known or liked by the teacher, my immediate thought was
children who come from disadvantaged backgrounds are at the greatest
(09:16):
risk here because they're often the least understood. They're often
the most most likely to struggle with discipline and self
control and situational awareness in the classroom. They're much more
likely to have outbursts.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Do I need to be corrected on that?
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Or does that sit about right for you politically and
correct as it probably is.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Well. Certainly, when you look at aggregated data. Children who
come from more disadvantage backgrounds are more likely to be bullied. Now,
I don't think that they necessarily have a skills deficit,
but they might be bullied for their economic state. They
might not have the fanciest shoes or whatever that might be.
(09:59):
And also so they have less resources and support around them.
And maybe their disadvantages come from having a parent who
has mental health difficulty, so not having that level of support.
So yes, there are certainly subgroups of children. Girls are
bullied more than boys are. For example, boys are more
likely to bully than girls. We know that children in
(10:20):
regional areas are more likely to be bullied than kids
in metropolitan areas. We know that Aboriginal children are much
more likely to be bullied, but non Aboriginal cold children
from different cultural and linguistic backgrounds are often more likely
to be targeted, and children who are experiencing some disability
sadly are also more likely to be targeted.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
I feel like I need to ask why and why
and why again to every single thing that you've just highlighted.
Time will get the better of us today for that,
But just hearing that breakdown, I remember looking at some
research some years ago. You were talking before about differences
children who shop with differences, and you've just listed a
handful of them. But I'm also thinking about weight differences, neurodiversity,
and neurodivergent challenges. I remember somebody talking about if your
(11:06):
lunch box smells different, right, if you've got a different
cultural or ethnic heritage and therefore you're bringing different food
to school and everyone smells it goes oh, all of
a sudden, that's a point of difference that they can
pick on. It seems like if somebody wants to bully,
they're surrounded by opportunities to find somebody somewhere, no shortage
at all.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Unless there is there are bystanders or witnesses who are
willing to step up, say something, Sit next to the
child who's alone. You can really shift norms in schools around.
And if somebody's been picked on for what they've got
in their lunchbox, what if everyone else then laughed and said,
of course, you know, stood up for that person who's
(11:47):
been targeted. We know that that will extinguish bullying faster
than an adult saying anything, and is much more likely
to have a sustained effect because they're not getting the
popularity response looking for so we can shut it down.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Bullying is about status, right, It's just about me looking
better than somebody else.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Yes, kids, certainly, status is part of it, but it's
being popular. I want other kids to be popular. And
when you think I wanted popular, relative other children, and
it's a serious house of cards. And the child who
is bullying knows that. You know, we've interviewed children who
bully regularly. They know that they, in a sense, need
(12:29):
to keep bullying to keep their friends. Use that term
loosely around them because perhaps the friends are so afraid
that if they step away, they will be targeted next. So, yes,
its status is part of it.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Difference between being popular and being liked sort of stands
out to me.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
There.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
You can be very popular, but it's on a flimsy foundation.
Being liked means you've got people who actually care for
you and are interested in you. Donna, you've highlighted the
importance of witnesses bystanders. Somebody who says, hey, old and
sit beside you. Someone who says, can I have what
you've got in your lunchbox tomorrow? So that we've both
got sticky lunchboxes.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Or whatever it is.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
What other protective factors would reduce the likelihood prevent children
young people from being bullied.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
And probably the most protective factor is your relationships with
other young people. So I've already mentioned that a lonely
child sadly is a target. So from a parent's perspective,
you know social architecture enabling your kids to make multiple
friendship groups, and that multiple friendship groups is really important.
(13:42):
That I don't just have one very best friend, because
that makes me quite vulnerable because that friendship move school,
They'll be sick a day at school, then I'm suddenly
a lonely child. So in independent schools, for example, we
see children can sometimes join that school in kindergarten non
government schools and stay with that same group of friends
(14:03):
right way through to the end of school, without ever
having the ability to learn how to make friends. They
just can be around that same cohort. So it's important
that your children have practice in how to make friends,
how to walk up to somebody they don't know, start
a conversations, find something similar to chat about, or do
something with them. So a very important protective factor is
(14:27):
how to make friends, and how to make friends that
are reciprocated identifying people who have something in common. Other
protective factors are things like being in a school environment
that has a really clear ethos around how we treat
each other. A focus on kindness and what that looks like.
(14:48):
Caring for each other helps to build empathy. I'm very
protective if I'm an empathetic person because I'm less likely
to bully knowing that it could hurt somebody else. So
building that quality is important as well. Other protective factors
in addition to being around peers factors in our environment.
(15:12):
So a school structure can facilitate or prevent bullying by
the way that it's designed. So think about seating in
a school. If there's only five seats, five children will
sit on those and the rest of the children in
the group have to stand. There's a certain amount of
power around that allocation. Or if there's only two basketballs
(15:32):
out during the lunchtime break, most basketballs become very powerful
in terms of who's holding them. So ensuring that there's
enough equipment and the spaces are set up to encourage
kids to talk to each other and engage. So we
can give about physical environment here. Previously I was talking
about the social environment. These things are so critical now
(15:53):
for parents. There's lots of protective factors that parents could
engage in that I've already hinted at. One is that
social architecture, play playdates, inviting over different friends at different
times to help build that relationship with your children, helping
your children to have different friendship groups. So, for example,
(16:13):
my children obviously have their friendship group at school, but
they also have separate friendship groups where they learn music,
and they have separate friendship groups where they play football
or whatever sports they might engage in. And that's really
important to help kids have a good sense of themselves
if there's someone who can have lots of friends and
friends who are still standing when others start to fall away.
(16:36):
And then of course online bullying is another issue which
you might want to get into shortly, and there's certain
things that are very protective, like parent monitoring that keep
children safer online and obviously produce the likelihood of being
cyber bullyted.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
This has been so comprehensive and so useful, and I
feel like we've barely scratched the surface.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Donna.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
I know that I said that we would have a
short chat because this is a podcast that is for
time poor parents, But because it's such an important week,
because there's so much emphasis being put on no bullying
this week, would you mind chatting with me again tomorrow
so we can talk about the ubiquity of bullying and
what to do if your child is bullied.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
I'm very really happy to do that.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Just thank you, amazing. This has just been so valuable
and so useful. Tomorrow we continue this conversation with Professor
Donna Cross about bullying for our No Bullying Week.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
I can't wait. I can't wait to find out what
we're going.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
To talk about tomorrow and how we can respond when
our children are being bullied. I've been through it with
a couple of my kids. It's just torture as a
parent when you think you're doing everything right. You've got
all the protective factors in place, the school's telling you
all the right stuff, and it's still not working. So
we'll unpack that tomorrow on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
The Happy Families.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Podcast is produced by Justin Ruhland from Bridge Media. Mim
Hammond's supports with admin and research help. If you'd like
more info and more resources, we will link to a
whole range of Donna's me cereal and a whole lot
more about how to deal with and respond to bullying,
and you can also visit happyfamilies dot com dot au
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