October 6, 2025 • 17 mins
Few things break a parent’s heart like leaving your toddler at childcare while they cry, scream, and beg you not to go. Is this the same as “cry it out”? Is it harming their development—or just part of growing up?
In this episode, Justin and Kylie unpack the science of separation anxiety and share practical, compassionate strategies to ease drop-off stress—for your child and for you.
KEY POINTS
- Why toddler separation anxiety is different from cry-it-out sleep training
- The role of support networks, emotional development, and cognition in how kids cope
- Two critical signs that reveal if your child is actually okay
- When to worry: What ongoing distress might really mean
- Practical strategies: routines, comfort items, quick goodbyes, and positive pick-up rituals
QUOTE OF THE EPISODE
“Separation hurts—but if your child settles quickly, connects with others, and greets you with joy at the end of the day, you can breathe easier. They’re okay.”
RESOURCES MENTIONED
- Little People, Big Feelings [The Summit]
- The Kissing Hand by Audrey Penn – a beautiful story for easing separation anxiety
ACTION STEPS FOR PARENTS
- Stick to routine – predictability builds security.
- Use comfort anchors – a hand-kiss, fabric scrap, or pocket token.
- Keep drop-offs short – no lingering, quick and confident goodbye.
- Plan pick-up rituals – a special “after care” routine your child can look forward to.
- Check in with carers – ask how quickly your child settles and how they engage during the day.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
This is the Happy Famili's podcast. One of society's perennial problems.
One of the biggest challenges that parents face is kids
being upset at daycare drop off.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Today, we answer a tricky.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Question that involves what's going on in kids' brains when
we drop them off and they melt down?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
And how is that different to cry it out?
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Specifically, if crying it out is so bad for kids,
that isolation, that parental separation, how is that any different
to leaving bigger kids at daycare, preschool, kinder so that
they can have a day without you. That is coming
up in just a sec as well as some answers
for what to do around these separation challenges on the
(00:52):
Happy Familiess podcast Stay with us. Hello, Welcome to the
Happy Famili's podcast, Real Parenting Solutions. Every single day we
are Justin and Kylie calls and parents have six children.
I'm the author of a bunch of books, including I'm
Still Breathing, Size of Relief, after how Long, Kylie, After
Forever and ever and ever. I've handed in the Boys' Manuscript.
(01:12):
The Boys Book is now being edited.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
At the publisher. Oh, and it feels so good.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
I'm glad it feels good for you. I'm still kind
of holding my breath a little.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
There's more work to come over. We're getting close.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
We've got a publication date for sort of early to
mid next year as well.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Details on that soon.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
But today, as we do every Tuesday on the pod,
we answer your tricky questions. If you have a tricky
question that you'd like to ask us, it doesn't really
matter what it's about. We'll pretty much talk about anything
at all. Just jump online to happy families dot com
dot you scroll down to where it says podcasts and
click the record button. It's a super simple system. You
literally push the button and start talking and we'll talk
(01:49):
about it all Happy families dot com dot au. If
you would like your question featured on the podcast, Kylie.
Today's question is a tough one from icy wa.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
Hi daughter Justin. I'm Icy I'm from Basleton. We have
a three and a half year old son and a
nine months old daughter. I'm just wondering as if cryed
our sleep training is not appropriate for babies as they
feel abandoned. Wouldn't that be the same when I dropped
my son of childcare, having him crying, kicking and scream
mummy while watching me walk away from him. He go
(02:22):
there twice a week and he's still we feel same
to go, even he has been there for over a
year now. I often tell him beforehand, is there any
other way I can help him? Is it not good
for his mental development? Or should I just believe it's
got to be good for him as he can learn
how to socialize with other people.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
I see.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
It's such a tough one, and this is one of
those things that's been going on forever and ever and
ever since we've had childcare for our kids. Kids have
said but no, but no, I want to stay with mom.
I love the question, Carly. I'm going to throw it
strike to you. You've got a background in the child care.
You spent the first several years of our life together
working in that industry. When you hear this baby crying
(03:02):
it out versus three and a half year old dealing
with separation anxiety ically saying that the same things are different,
I certainly have some strong opinions here, and I think
we've got good evidence behind what I'm going to say.
But what's your initial impulse, your initial reaction?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
It's not the same. It's definitely not the same. When
you think about a nine month old baby left in
a room or by themselves to cry it out, there's
no one there to support them through that process. You've
walked away and as far as they're concerned, you're not
coming back. Yeah yeah, yeah, compared to your three and
a half year old who you're dropping off that daycare
clearly in a place that you feel comfortable with, you
(03:37):
feel safe in. You've got carers who are taking care
of them, You've got others peers there who can help
rally around him, and he's got the support he needs
to work through the process.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Yeah, okay, so support networks are a critical difference there.
There are a couple of other things that I'm going
to step into from a developmental emotional perspective, a cognitive
perspective as well. The first is that a baby has
no concept whatsoever of the fact that there's time, there's routines,
there's schedules. They just think that they've been left alone,
(04:10):
whereas a three and a half year old does know
and you can explain again and again and again. I mean,
they'll be upset about it, but you can explain, here's
what's happening, here's what I'm doing. They do get it.
It's not they don't have the cognitive capacity of an
older child, but they do get that.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
They understand I will be back later. Later is a thing.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
It does exist, and we've got history. Every time I've
told you I'm coming back, I've come back. So from
a cognitive point of view, the big kid versus the
little kid, the three and a half year old versus
the six month old and the nine month old, it
is a significant difference. The other thing outside of your
comment about support networks and mine about cognitive differences is
emotional development, the ability to regulate your emotions. So emotion
(04:50):
regulation is really really poor in three year olds, but
it is in its early stages of development. You've got
a baby. They have no ability to regulate their emotions
at all. If they're feeling something, you know it. If
they're feeling isolated, scared, they've got a pee nappy, they
will let you know.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
They don't regulate. They don't think.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Now it's not convenient, I'll just give mom and dad
another ten minutes. They just lose the plot right away
because they're uncomfortable or they need help. So with a three,
three and a half, four year old. They they want
your love, they want your security, and when they feel
like they're being deprived of it, they will lose the plot.
But Kylie, let me ask you this, and I'm not
(05:30):
saying this is ideal by any stretch, but when kids
would lose it after being dropped off at childcare when
you were working in centers, how many of them, as
a percentage continued to cry for another ten, twenty thirty
minutes or even all day.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
So I can only remember one child in my training
days came from a different country so did not speak
the language oh wow, and was placed in care every
day and he literally cried from the time his parents
dropped him off to the time he was picked up.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Okay, so that's a really unusual one. But the norm
when a child is upset.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
The norm would be maybe two three five minutes max.
Generally speaking, Mum and Dad walk out the door, they
have a big cuddle with Cara, and they get distracted. Yeah,
and they go find something big and shining to play with, right,
And that would be general practice.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
So that's my biggest response here to Icee is that, yeah,
separation hurts. I mean it as an adult when I
leave you in the morning to go off to work
or do what. I've got a home office. Even when
I'm working in the office, sometimes I don't want to
take the ten steps from the front door to the office.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Because I miss you. I want to be with you.
And so even as adults, we crave one another. We're
ultrasocial beings. We're supposed to be together. That's how we're
wirde precisely.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
But if your child is recovering really quickly and then
adapting well for the remainder of the day, then I'm
just not that concerned about it. Am I a little
bit concerned about it? Yeah, it's it's not natural, it's
not normal. It's not how we've done things for the
entire history of the planet, across every culture. But it
is what we do now, and kids seem to adapt okay,
And we don't have any evidence that it's creating any
long term mental health challenges for our children. If your
(07:13):
children are going to have mental health challenges, it's much
likely to be a whole lot of other stuff that
happens at other points in their life, both both when
the young and when they're all But I don't think
this is the key criteria here.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
So two key indicators to help you feel I guess
more at ease with your decision. Number one, the recognition
that after you leave, they calm down very quickly, they
get into their social networks and they engage in activities
throughout the day. And number two, how do they present
when you pick them up?
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Right?
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Are they happy to see you?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Or are they devastated? You know, if there's big emotions
around a pick up, well we.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Call that an ambivalent or an avoidant attachment style, and
that is a signal that there are concerns.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Good news really really uncommon.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
So we would often drop off at one of our children.
She would lose the plot every year, but then by
the time I'd go and pick her up, I couldn't
get her to love. So that's a clear indicator that
while we don't love separating, once we're there, we're actually
so engaged and so enjoying and experienced and.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
We don't want to separating again.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
That's right at the other end of the day, even
though that is normal development, and there is an attachment
hierarchy riot like if your child has a choice between
usually it's mum at the top of the hierarchy. That's
quite normal, and dad can sometimes be offended by it,
but that's totally normal. Your child is clearly going to
choose you over the childcare center staff or over the
(08:47):
friends at the childcare center, because let's.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Be real, if they're not choosing you over the childcare stuff,
you're going to be devastated, which mum goes off. Great,
I'm glad you love them more than me.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
All right.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
After the break, we needed to tackle a couple of
the other questions that Icy has asked, specifically, if my
child is still upset like this after a year, is
that a problem? And secondly, will he ever learn how
to make this work? That's coming up in just a
sec on the Happy Families podcast Stay with.
Speaker 5 (09:16):
Us today on The Happy Family's podcast, Answering tricky questions
this one childhood attachment.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Security, whether or not kids like or don't like being
dropped off at childcare, and should we do anything about it?
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Kylie.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
The second thing that Icee really zeroed in on was
I've been taking my child's to childcare for a year now.
Child is currently three and a half, so it started
at two and a half. Not happy, still having the
tantrums twice a week, this is just.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
An ongoing dilemma. I'd love again your take before I
throw in my two cents.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
So again, if we go back to those two key
factors after you leave, how is the child.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Responding, settling in or not yet?
Speaker 3 (10:01):
If they're not settling in, then we actually do have
an issue. We've got a child who's distressed all day
and is not able to regulate at all. And then
the second thing is how are they coping at the
other end, So they would be my first two things
having conversations with care is finding out what's happening during
the day and then assessing the situation from there.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
We haven't swapped notes here, but I've got pretty much
exactly the same thing written down. If there are ongoing problems,
this is what I say to I've had parents say, like,
my child doesn't like going to swimming lessons. We're having tantrums,
can't get him in the pool, can't get her in
the pool. It's usually a boy and there's all this
drama going on. And so my normal response to that
is take them out for six months, take them out
for a year, and help them to just sort of
(10:44):
grow up a bit. They learn how to emotionally regulate
better and then they will figure it out. Now with preschool,
you might not have that same level of privilege to
be able to have your child at home. Maybe you
need to work. The child has to be in care.
But to the degree that you can either change the environment,
change the tea, or take them out, that might be
something to consider. If there's daily distress all day every
(11:05):
day while they're in the center.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
So Icy is asked whether or not he's going to
be able to learn to socialize with kids. That seems
to be her main motivator for having him in care.
I think so often we fall into this trapp as parents,
thinking if we don't socialize our children from an early age,
that they're going to struggle when it comes to school.
(11:27):
If we have a strong social network, if we have
a strong village around us, then socialization in a formalized
setting is actually not needed at all. Our children are
going to receive the socializing that they need through daily
interactions with friends and family. If we don't have that,
(11:50):
then our next step, instead of using childcare as the
socialization vehicle, is to create it. We become part of
a playgroup. We pick one or two families where we
see the kids actually have something in common and we say, hey,
would you like to catch up for morning tea? Would
you like to meet me at the park. It actually
takes a little bit more effort on our part, but
(12:12):
it is definitely an easier way for children who are
really struggling with separation anxiety.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah, the idea.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Alfiekne talks about what he calls the bagooty principle. Bagouty
is an acronym bg ut I better get used to it,
And a lot of parents use the bagooty principle to
get the kids to all kinds of things that are
really hard and horrible because at some point in the
future they're going to have to do it anyway, so
they might as well get used to it now. And childcare,
in some circumstances can be exactly that. If a child
(12:40):
doesn't have to be there, then why get them used
to it. They'll get used to it when they're five
and they have to go to big school.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
So a couple of tips. If this is something that
you actually really need to continue doing.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Yeah, if he's got to be at childcare and you're
just stuck with it, how do you minimize the distress.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Do you tell them before you go one hundred percent?
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Tell me more bit on the fence on that one.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Don't ever surprise a kid.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Well, yeah, you don't want to say, guess what, we're
at kinder again today, that's right, Yeah, fair enough.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
They're smart enough. They know what's going on. You're packing
their bag, you're putting their.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Shoes down this street.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
We've done this before. Okay, so you actually the best
thing you can do. Kids at this age need consistency, routine,
and predictability. That's how their world feels safe. So it's
not a sometimes thing. We have to give them a
clear routine so that they know exactly what's happening. That's
the first thing. I know that that sounds a little
(13:36):
bit counterproductive for a kid who is anxious about leaving
his mum.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Yeah, is it going to spike my anxiety? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (13:43):
So then the second thing is to find something, whether
it might be just a small small piece of fabric
or you don't want to take a toy because it
can get stolen or lost or broken, but something that
represents mum and him, something that he can take from
that's kind of like a comfort he's got that just
(14:03):
even if he keeps it in his pocket. There's a
beautiful book called The Kissing Hand by Audrey Penn, and
it just shares the experience of a mum kissing her
child's hand and getting him to kind of, you know,
wrap his fingers around it, and the acknowledgment that even
though she's not there, whenever he feels a little bit anxious,
that he can open his hand up and kind of
(14:24):
place it on his cheeker, on his heart and know
that Mom's there.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
That is a big gully.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
I like that finding opportunities to just not bubble wrap him,
but just scaffold him so that he knows, even telling
him and teaching him how to read the clock and
that you will be here at that time, and then
honoring that if it's three o'clock, you can't be three
or five, you have to be three o'clock. So those
(14:48):
few things will help him to recognize that not only
do you love him, that you're with him all day
even when he can't see you, but that you will
be back. Are definitely going to help.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
And I'm just going to th one more in. I mean,
I've actually liked this podcast. Normally I am the voice.
Normally I am the expert. You've you've owned, You've dominated
this one. It's been so so great. But let me
throw one last one in, and that is give him
something to look forward to when he's going. So who
is he going to see? Who can he meet at
the front gate? Who is his favorite person? And can
(15:19):
they meet you in the car park so that they
can be excited to get out of the car together
and walk in together. Is there something that the childcare
teacher can greet him with or get him to do
straight away so that he's a distracted, be busy and
c making a meaningful contribution, something to look forward to, someone.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
To be with. It makes his experience of being.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
At childcare feel a lot more personally choiceful and therefore
easier to smooth that transition.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
You've just said that, and it's made me think of
two things.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
We're out of time. You're going to do it fast.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Don't linger when you drop him off.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Look at you being the expert and taking all the
time today.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
If don't linger, don't linger. The longer you take to
say good by, the harder it is. This is again
counted intuitive, but you actually need to make it crisp,
concise and just.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Moves just like our podcasts crisp and concise.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Yeah, but that will require you working really closely with
the caregiver, right, They need to be a part of
that process. It's a quick exchange. You leave, they take over.
And the last thing is you talk about having having
something to look forward to when you get there, having
a ritual that you do when you pick him up,
something that he gets to do with you and he
(16:32):
gets to look forward to it.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Baby Chinos could be a baby Chino.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
It could be stopping off at the park. It could
be gonna give Grammar a hug. Like literally, it's just
about the same thing every time that lights him up.
He knows at the end of the day, I get
to do this and it excites him.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
I see from Busso we really hope that we've answered
your question effectively and helpfully today. Thanks so much for
sending it through. You can send your tricky questions to
podcasts at happy families dot com dot You just send
a voice note podcasts at Happy Families or visit us
at happy families dot com dot I U scroll down
to the podcast section, press the record button, then start
talking another tricky question next Tuesday on the pod Tomorrow
(17:10):
on the podcast, Karna Savage, registered accredited practicing dietician talking
about neurodiversity and diet. How do we deal with kids
that have all kinds of fussiness and challenges around eating.
We're going to discuss that on the pod. The Happy
Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media.
Mimhammon's provides additional research, admin and other support and if
(17:30):
you'd like more info to make your family happier, especially
on topics like this, check out the webinar Little People,
Big Feelings online now at happy families dot com dot
you
This is the Happy Famili's podcast. One of society's perennial problems.
One of the biggest challenges that parents face is kids
being upset at daycare drop off.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Today, we answer a tricky.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Question that involves what's going on in kids' brains when
we drop them off and they melt down?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
And how is that different to cry it out?
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Specifically, if crying it out is so bad for kids,
that isolation, that parental separation, how is that any different
to leaving bigger kids at daycare, preschool, kinder so that
they can have a day without you. That is coming
up in just a sec as well as some answers
for what to do around these separation challenges on the
(00:52):
Happy Familiess podcast Stay with us. Hello, Welcome to the
Happy Famili's podcast, Real Parenting Solutions. Every single day we
are Justin and Kylie calls and parents have six children.
I'm the author of a bunch of books, including I'm
Still Breathing, Size of Relief, after how Long, Kylie, After
Forever and ever and ever. I've handed in the Boys' Manuscript.
(01:12):
The Boys Book is now being edited.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
At the publisher. Oh, and it feels so good.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
I'm glad it feels good for you. I'm still kind
of holding my breath a little.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
There's more work to come over. We're getting close.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
We've got a publication date for sort of early to
mid next year as well.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Details on that soon.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
But today, as we do every Tuesday on the pod,
we answer your tricky questions. If you have a tricky
question that you'd like to ask us, it doesn't really
matter what it's about. We'll pretty much talk about anything
at all. Just jump online to happy families dot com
dot you scroll down to where it says podcasts and
click the record button. It's a super simple system. You
literally push the button and start talking and we'll talk
(01:49):
about it all Happy families dot com dot au. If
you would like your question featured on the podcast, Kylie.
Today's question is a tough one from icy wa.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
Hi daughter Justin. I'm Icy I'm from Basleton. We have
a three and a half year old son and a
nine months old daughter. I'm just wondering as if cryed
our sleep training is not appropriate for babies as they
feel abandoned. Wouldn't that be the same when I dropped
my son of childcare, having him crying, kicking and scream
mummy while watching me walk away from him. He go
(02:22):
there twice a week and he's still we feel same
to go, even he has been there for over a
year now. I often tell him beforehand, is there any
other way I can help him? Is it not good
for his mental development? Or should I just believe it's
got to be good for him as he can learn
how to socialize with other people.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
I see.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
It's such a tough one, and this is one of
those things that's been going on forever and ever and
ever since we've had childcare for our kids. Kids have
said but no, but no, I want to stay with mom.
I love the question, Carly. I'm going to throw it
strike to you. You've got a background in the child care.
You spent the first several years of our life together
working in that industry. When you hear this baby crying
(03:02):
it out versus three and a half year old dealing
with separation anxiety ically saying that the same things are different,
I certainly have some strong opinions here, and I think
we've got good evidence behind what I'm going to say.
But what's your initial impulse, your initial reaction?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
It's not the same. It's definitely not the same. When
you think about a nine month old baby left in
a room or by themselves to cry it out, there's
no one there to support them through that process. You've
walked away and as far as they're concerned, you're not
coming back. Yeah yeah, yeah, compared to your three and
a half year old who you're dropping off that daycare
clearly in a place that you feel comfortable with, you
(03:37):
feel safe in. You've got carers who are taking care
of them, You've got others peers there who can help
rally around him, and he's got the support he needs
to work through the process.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Yeah, okay, so support networks are a critical difference there.
There are a couple of other things that I'm going
to step into from a developmental emotional perspective, a cognitive
perspective as well. The first is that a baby has
no concept whatsoever of the fact that there's time, there's routines,
there's schedules. They just think that they've been left alone,
(04:10):
whereas a three and a half year old does know
and you can explain again and again and again. I mean,
they'll be upset about it, but you can explain, here's
what's happening, here's what I'm doing. They do get it.
It's not they don't have the cognitive capacity of an
older child, but they do get that.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
They understand I will be back later. Later is a thing.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
It does exist, and we've got history. Every time I've
told you I'm coming back, I've come back. So from
a cognitive point of view, the big kid versus the
little kid, the three and a half year old versus
the six month old and the nine month old, it
is a significant difference. The other thing outside of your
comment about support networks and mine about cognitive differences is
emotional development, the ability to regulate your emotions. So emotion
(04:50):
regulation is really really poor in three year olds, but
it is in its early stages of development. You've got
a baby. They have no ability to regulate their emotions
at all. If they're feeling something, you know it. If
they're feeling isolated, scared, they've got a pee nappy, they
will let you know.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
They don't regulate. They don't think.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Now it's not convenient, I'll just give mom and dad
another ten minutes. They just lose the plot right away
because they're uncomfortable or they need help. So with a three,
three and a half, four year old. They they want
your love, they want your security, and when they feel
like they're being deprived of it, they will lose the plot.
But Kylie, let me ask you this, and I'm not
(05:30):
saying this is ideal by any stretch, but when kids
would lose it after being dropped off at childcare when
you were working in centers, how many of them, as
a percentage continued to cry for another ten, twenty thirty
minutes or even all day.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
So I can only remember one child in my training
days came from a different country so did not speak
the language oh wow, and was placed in care every
day and he literally cried from the time his parents
dropped him off to the time he was picked up.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Okay, so that's a really unusual one. But the norm
when a child is upset.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
The norm would be maybe two three five minutes max.
Generally speaking, Mum and Dad walk out the door, they
have a big cuddle with Cara, and they get distracted. Yeah,
and they go find something big and shining to play with, right,
And that would be general practice.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
So that's my biggest response here to Icee is that, yeah,
separation hurts. I mean it as an adult when I
leave you in the morning to go off to work
or do what. I've got a home office. Even when
I'm working in the office, sometimes I don't want to
take the ten steps from the front door to the office.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Because I miss you. I want to be with you.
And so even as adults, we crave one another. We're
ultrasocial beings. We're supposed to be together. That's how we're
wirde precisely.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
But if your child is recovering really quickly and then
adapting well for the remainder of the day, then I'm
just not that concerned about it. Am I a little
bit concerned about it? Yeah, it's it's not natural, it's
not normal. It's not how we've done things for the
entire history of the planet, across every culture. But it
is what we do now, and kids seem to adapt okay,
And we don't have any evidence that it's creating any
long term mental health challenges for our children. If your
(07:13):
children are going to have mental health challenges, it's much
likely to be a whole lot of other stuff that
happens at other points in their life, both both when
the young and when they're all But I don't think
this is the key criteria here.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
So two key indicators to help you feel I guess
more at ease with your decision. Number one, the recognition
that after you leave, they calm down very quickly, they
get into their social networks and they engage in activities
throughout the day. And number two, how do they present
when you pick them up?
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Right?
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Are they happy to see you?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Or are they devastated? You know, if there's big emotions
around a pick up, well we.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Call that an ambivalent or an avoidant attachment style, and
that is a signal that there are concerns.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Good news really really uncommon.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
So we would often drop off at one of our children.
She would lose the plot every year, but then by
the time I'd go and pick her up, I couldn't
get her to love. So that's a clear indicator that
while we don't love separating, once we're there, we're actually
so engaged and so enjoying and experienced and.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
We don't want to separating again.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
That's right at the other end of the day, even
though that is normal development, and there is an attachment
hierarchy riot like if your child has a choice between
usually it's mum at the top of the hierarchy. That's
quite normal, and dad can sometimes be offended by it,
but that's totally normal. Your child is clearly going to
choose you over the childcare center staff or over the
(08:47):
friends at the childcare center, because let's.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Be real, if they're not choosing you over the childcare stuff,
you're going to be devastated, which mum goes off. Great,
I'm glad you love them more than me.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
All right.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
After the break, we needed to tackle a couple of
the other questions that Icy has asked, specifically, if my
child is still upset like this after a year, is
that a problem? And secondly, will he ever learn how
to make this work? That's coming up in just a
sec on the Happy Families podcast Stay with.
Speaker 5 (09:16):
Us today on The Happy Family's podcast, Answering tricky questions
this one childhood attachment.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Security, whether or not kids like or don't like being
dropped off at childcare, and should we do anything about it?
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Kylie.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
The second thing that Icee really zeroed in on was
I've been taking my child's to childcare for a year now.
Child is currently three and a half, so it started
at two and a half. Not happy, still having the
tantrums twice a week, this is just.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
An ongoing dilemma. I'd love again your take before I
throw in my two cents.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
So again, if we go back to those two key
factors after you leave, how is the child.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Responding, settling in or not yet?
Speaker 3 (10:01):
If they're not settling in, then we actually do have
an issue. We've got a child who's distressed all day
and is not able to regulate at all. And then
the second thing is how are they coping at the
other end, So they would be my first two things
having conversations with care is finding out what's happening during
the day and then assessing the situation from there.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
We haven't swapped notes here, but I've got pretty much
exactly the same thing written down. If there are ongoing problems,
this is what I say to I've had parents say, like,
my child doesn't like going to swimming lessons. We're having tantrums,
can't get him in the pool, can't get her in
the pool. It's usually a boy and there's all this
drama going on. And so my normal response to that
is take them out for six months, take them out
for a year, and help them to just sort of
(10:44):
grow up a bit. They learn how to emotionally regulate
better and then they will figure it out. Now with preschool,
you might not have that same level of privilege to
be able to have your child at home. Maybe you
need to work. The child has to be in care.
But to the degree that you can either change the environment,
change the tea, or take them out, that might be
something to consider. If there's daily distress all day every
(11:05):
day while they're in the center.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
So Icy is asked whether or not he's going to
be able to learn to socialize with kids. That seems
to be her main motivator for having him in care.
I think so often we fall into this trapp as parents,
thinking if we don't socialize our children from an early age,
that they're going to struggle when it comes to school.
(11:27):
If we have a strong social network, if we have
a strong village around us, then socialization in a formalized
setting is actually not needed at all. Our children are
going to receive the socializing that they need through daily
interactions with friends and family. If we don't have that,
(11:50):
then our next step, instead of using childcare as the
socialization vehicle, is to create it. We become part of
a playgroup. We pick one or two families where we
see the kids actually have something in common and we say, hey,
would you like to catch up for morning tea? Would
you like to meet me at the park. It actually
takes a little bit more effort on our part, but
(12:12):
it is definitely an easier way for children who are
really struggling with separation anxiety.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah, the idea.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Alfiekne talks about what he calls the bagooty principle. Bagouty
is an acronym bg ut I better get used to it,
And a lot of parents use the bagooty principle to
get the kids to all kinds of things that are
really hard and horrible because at some point in the
future they're going to have to do it anyway, so
they might as well get used to it now. And childcare,
in some circumstances can be exactly that. If a child
(12:40):
doesn't have to be there, then why get them used
to it. They'll get used to it when they're five
and they have to go to big school.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
So a couple of tips. If this is something that
you actually really need to continue doing.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Yeah, if he's got to be at childcare and you're
just stuck with it, how do you minimize the distress.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Do you tell them before you go one hundred percent?
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Tell me more bit on the fence on that one.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Don't ever surprise a kid.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Well, yeah, you don't want to say, guess what, we're
at kinder again today, that's right, Yeah, fair enough.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
They're smart enough. They know what's going on. You're packing
their bag, you're putting their.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Shoes down this street.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
We've done this before. Okay, so you actually the best
thing you can do. Kids at this age need consistency, routine,
and predictability. That's how their world feels safe. So it's
not a sometimes thing. We have to give them a
clear routine so that they know exactly what's happening. That's
the first thing. I know that that sounds a little
(13:36):
bit counterproductive for a kid who is anxious about leaving
his mum.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Yeah, is it going to spike my anxiety? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (13:43):
So then the second thing is to find something, whether
it might be just a small small piece of fabric
or you don't want to take a toy because it
can get stolen or lost or broken, but something that
represents mum and him, something that he can take from
that's kind of like a comfort he's got that just
(14:03):
even if he keeps it in his pocket. There's a
beautiful book called The Kissing Hand by Audrey Penn, and
it just shares the experience of a mum kissing her
child's hand and getting him to kind of, you know,
wrap his fingers around it, and the acknowledgment that even
though she's not there, whenever he feels a little bit anxious,
that he can open his hand up and kind of
(14:24):
place it on his cheeker, on his heart and know
that Mom's there.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
That is a big gully.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
I like that finding opportunities to just not bubble wrap him,
but just scaffold him so that he knows, even telling
him and teaching him how to read the clock and
that you will be here at that time, and then
honoring that if it's three o'clock, you can't be three
or five, you have to be three o'clock. So those
(14:48):
few things will help him to recognize that not only
do you love him, that you're with him all day
even when he can't see you, but that you will
be back. Are definitely going to help.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
And I'm just going to th one more in. I mean,
I've actually liked this podcast. Normally I am the voice.
Normally I am the expert. You've you've owned, You've dominated
this one. It's been so so great. But let me
throw one last one in, and that is give him
something to look forward to when he's going. So who
is he going to see? Who can he meet at
the front gate? Who is his favorite person? And can
(15:19):
they meet you in the car park so that they
can be excited to get out of the car together
and walk in together. Is there something that the childcare
teacher can greet him with or get him to do
straight away so that he's a distracted, be busy and
c making a meaningful contribution, something to look forward to, someone.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
To be with. It makes his experience of being.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
At childcare feel a lot more personally choiceful and therefore
easier to smooth that transition.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
You've just said that, and it's made me think of
two things.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
We're out of time. You're going to do it fast.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Don't linger when you drop him off.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Look at you being the expert and taking all the
time today.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
If don't linger, don't linger. The longer you take to
say good by, the harder it is. This is again
counted intuitive, but you actually need to make it crisp,
concise and just.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Moves just like our podcasts crisp and concise.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Yeah, but that will require you working really closely with
the caregiver, right, They need to be a part of
that process. It's a quick exchange. You leave, they take over.
And the last thing is you talk about having having
something to look forward to when you get there, having
a ritual that you do when you pick him up,
something that he gets to do with you and he
(16:32):
gets to look forward to it.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Baby Chinos could be a baby Chino.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
It could be stopping off at the park. It could
be gonna give Grammar a hug. Like literally, it's just
about the same thing every time that lights him up.
He knows at the end of the day, I get
to do this and it excites him.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
I see from Busso we really hope that we've answered
your question effectively and helpfully today. Thanks so much for
sending it through. You can send your tricky questions to
podcasts at happy families dot com dot You just send
a voice note podcasts at Happy Families or visit us
at happy families dot com dot I U scroll down
to the podcast section, press the record button, then start
talking another tricky question next Tuesday on the pod Tomorrow
(17:10):
on the podcast, Karna Savage, registered accredited practicing dietician talking
about neurodiversity and diet. How do we deal with kids
that have all kinds of fussiness and challenges around eating.
We're going to discuss that on the pod. The Happy
Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media.
Mimhammon's provides additional research, admin and other support and if
(17:30):
you'd like more info to make your family happier, especially
on topics like this, check out the webinar Little People,
Big Feelings online now at happy families dot com dot
you
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.