September 2, 2025 • 13 mins
Exams, ATARs, scaling, university preferences—no wonder Year 12 feels overwhelming. But what if success doesn’t come down to one number? In this episode, Dr Justin Coulson is joined by careers counsellor Amy Dyer to unpack the myths around scaling, ATAR pressure, gap years, trades, and vocational pathways. If your teen feels lost—or if you’re a parent caught in the stress—this conversation will help you breathe easier and see the bigger picture.
KEY POINTS:
- Scaling and ATARs: what really matters (and what doesn’t).
- Achievement, capability, enjoyment - what is success?
- Burnout in young people after school
- Why a gap year can be the best choice for mental health and clarity.
- The hidden value of vocational studies and trade careers.
- How to help kids define success beyond exam scores.
- Why parents should focus on fit, not prestige, when guiding school and career choices.
QUOTE OF THE EPISODE:
“You’re not supposed to know. You just try. Just be productive. Just do something.” — Dr Justin Coulson
RESOURCES MENTIONED:
- Connect with Amy Dyer
- More parenting support: happyfamilies.com.au
- Check out our "Failed at School, Successful at Life" podcast series [episodes #875-879]
ACTION STEPS FOR PARENTS:
- Start conversations about learning styles and interests - not just grades.
- Normalise multiple pathways: university, TAFE, trades, or gap years.
- Reduce pressure by reminding your teen that life doesn’t hinge on a single number.
- Create safe spaces at home for career and study discussions.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Okay, so we are getting towards the business end of
the year, especially if you are sending a year twelve
student off to school. We only have a matter of
weeks now until year twelve exams kick off. A whole
lot of schools have demanded that university applications go in
so that kids know what they're doing next year, assuming
they're going to go to UNI. Today on the podcast,
(00:27):
a conversation about careers, career counseling and what your kids
are supposed to do when it comes to the end
of school. Stay with us. Hello and welcome to The
Happy Family's podcast. Moname's doctor Justin Coulson. This is where
you get real parenting solutions every day on Australia's most
downloaded parenting podcast. Today, I am delighted to be joined
(00:48):
by Amy Dyer. Amy Dyer is a careers counselor with
more than twenty years of experience working with senior school
students in schools around Queensland. Her aim is to empowers
you some parents to make informed decisions regarding senior schooling
and vocational and tertiary pathways. We will link to Amy's
(01:08):
details in the show notes. But Amy really glad that
you've joined me on the podcast today, I'm putting my
fourth daughter, three year twelve. As we speak, she's about
to do a final exams. We're literally living it and
going through everything's associated with it right now. And the
scaling conversation is one that keeps on coming up, and
it's one that I sort of dismissed with a wave
of the hand and say, don't worry about it, it
(01:30):
doesn't matter. But for parents who are really concerned about
how their students subjects, how their child subjects are going
to be scaled up or down, and where they come
in the class and the cohort and that sort of thing,
what does this really mean?
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Yeah, this could be a controversial answer because it's not
going to suit the narrative of all schools. So scaling
is something if we're going to keep it really simple,
where there is a governing body and they determine what
subjects scale higher or lower. Scaling simply means that there
is a decision that has been made by somebody else,
(02:04):
not the school, that determines that, for example, a higher
level math is harder.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
To achieve well in than a lower level math. But
that spreads across the entire curriculum of subjects.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
So when we're talking scaling, there are a lot of
myths out there, and I spend a lot of my
day busting those myths. But essentially, from my point of
view and from my opinion only, I look at scaling
as important if you are wanting, needing or know you
can achieve an ATAR of about a ninety five or higher.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
When we're playing in that.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Upper end of the atars, we do need to look
at scaling. Unfortunately, there are just some subjects that if
you choose to do them, they could limit your ability
to get.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Up into that range. But I guess the question justin
is whether or not you need to be in that range, because.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
There is a way to get into any course and
any outcome in any career, irrespective of ATA. And that
is the job that I essentially do working with students
to look at what's direct and what we can use
as a backup to get to UNI. But if we
start talking about scaling and making sure that we're doing
subjects that get us up into that high range, I
(03:16):
think what we're essentially doing to our students is teaching
them that the purpose of learning is to get the
best result possible. And as you and I know, if
we can look at our time in industry and time
in work, we're not actually about the best result. We're
about the most appropriate result, what works for our business,
what works for our day to day world. And that
(03:38):
doesn't have to mean that we have achieved exceptionally well,
it just means that we know what we're doing, and
we're capable, and we actually enjoy what we're learning and
what we're working toward.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Amy, let's go there. I was going to come to
this later, but you've brought it up tertiary pathways. Well,
first of all, I just have this belief that children
and shouldn't be going straight to university. So here's my
question for your gap years gap yeares, Over the last
i'd say ten years, I've shifted enormously from maybe to
(04:11):
almost definitely accept in the rarest of cases. Now, that's
a fairly extreme position to hold. But where do you
stand on gap years? What are your thoughts?
Speaker 2 (04:19):
I'm with you there, justin I would say that there
was a point in time where I was the same
as you that just be careful.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
We don't want to stop the momentum.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
We want that learning to continue from school, into university
and then into industry. But recently there has been and
when I say recently, I'm thinking somewhere in around the
last five to ten years, there has been a certain
change that has we just seem to be seeing higher
levels of burnout with our students. And I find that
(04:52):
I'm having a lot of conversations with students where they're saying,
I just need a minute, I just need to finish
year twelve, and I just need a in it.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
And I think because we go.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Back to this narrative all the time of what is
success when you're in a school system, success is the
atar that's the ultimate for most students that are eligible.
I find that if I'm having a conversation with my
vocational students, that is not their narrative of success. They
have found a different way to work through their schooling
(05:22):
and they have a different idea of what their goals
are and why they're working in the way that they are.
But those that are working in an atar narrative, we
are looking at success based on the number that they achieve.
And I will often ask students do you have a
number in mind? And they will simply say yes, I do.
And I ask if you don't achieve that how you feel,
(05:43):
and I do here certainly through a wide variety of
clients that it can look like failure if they don't
get to that number.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
So University, a couple of quick ideas here, and I'd
love to get your support or any pushback on what
I'm about to share. First off, I failed year twelve.
I mean, I keep on talking about how I graduated
year twelve, but I think that's an inappropriate term to
use because I scored on the bottom fifteenth percent of
the state. But I did complete year twelve somehow. I've
got a piece of paper that said that I was finished.
(06:20):
So I finished school somehow. I got to the end
of year twelve, had a radio career media for nearly
a decade, and then went back to Taife and then
university as a twenty seven year old and stayed for
eight and a half years full time study and ended
up being a doctor. I have a couple of friends
who have done similar things. In fact, I've got one
mate who've finished school halfway through year eleven, just hated
(06:41):
it and then went on to go to university later
in life and became a He's now a specialist working
in hospitals in South Australia. All of this is to say,
we make such a big deal about getting into your
first preference or getting into university or whatever it is.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
I feel like.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
There's just so much angst and so much stress around
it completely unnecessarily tell me where I'm wrong or am
I dead on?
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Here? Are you dead on?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
That's a big one to unpack, and I think I
want to start with saying that when I meet with
students and we are having genuine and authentic conversations about
their interest areas, and I don't talk to them about
their results at all, I ask them about the way
in which they process information, how they like to learn,
are they problem solvers?
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Are they communicators? I ask them a simple question like
what does leadership look like to you?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
And because we don't ask students these questions, because they're
not wrapped up around assessments, they actually don't really know
how to answer some of these questions. So when they
are picking a course, and when we've sort of narrowed
it down to a few areas, I'll find there's often
hesitancy when we're looking at courses that have a high atar,
(07:57):
and I will ask them is this because this is
not some thing that you're thinking is for you, or
are you worried you simply can't get the atar, so
you are going to.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Exclude it from your choices.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
And more often than not, students are putting those invisible
barriers up because they think, well, I can't get to
that atar, so therefore that can't be the career for me,
even though after all of my questions that I've asked them,
it would be a great fit.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
So that's when we have the conversation about what a
pathway can look like.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Let's talk about vocational studies and trades. My contention, my
hypothesis is as follows. We have a trades shortage. We
don't have enough houses, we don't have enough electricians, we
don't have enough plumbers, we don't have enough people who
can build stuff, and our country is only getting bigger.
And therefore, my sense is that if you've got a
child who wants to get into any of the trades,
manual trades, or even the indoor trades, there is going
(08:48):
to be so much demand for their services that they
will be able to forge a successful career, make all
the money that they need, and do just fine in life.
Two questions here, Am I right? And how do we
reduce the stigma for kids who go to university given
that only thirty percent of Australia dults do have a
university degree.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Well, that's a big question and one that I actually
feel genuinely passionate about. I've grown up in a family
of tradees. I personally went to university, but I have
a number of trades that surround me and they've been
extremely successful in their lives. I think that we as
parents need to do our research on the school we are.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Sending our student to.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
And I might be baking a broad statement here, but
we don't know what We don't know who our children.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
Are when we start them somewhere in prep.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
So for me, if I was looking for a school
that was able to support my student whichever way that
they decide to grow and develop, I would be looking
at a school that comes from the angle of do
they offer a broad curriculum and can my student or
can my child world be successful in school with a
(10:03):
trade and can they achieve well with an am tariff?
Speaker 3 (10:06):
UNI is for them?
Speaker 2 (10:07):
So we have our state schooling is amazing for that
they have one of the most broadest curriculums that they
can to suit all the different learners that go into
our state system from the private sector. It is a business,
and they are going to choose the narrative that best
suits the clients how they're aiming for.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
So some private schools are going to be very heavy
and vocational.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Some are going to balance their curriculum across both, and
others are going to stay in that more academic space.
None of those schools are right or wrong. They all
have a place. We just have to make sure that
if our student is at a school where you're feeling
it's not going to meet their needs moving forward, that
(10:54):
it's okay to make a move.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
It's safe to make a move.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
And it will allow your student or your child to
be able to develop a skill set that aligns more
with who they are as they grow and develop and
as we learn who they are.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Okay, so my segue into my final question, how does
other than maybe listen to a conversation like this, How
does a kid in your ten year eleven or year twelve,
or even a twenty four year old, or perhaps even
a forty six year old who's listening to us talk now,
how do you decide what you're supposed to do with
your life.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
You start with your best guess and see where it
leads you.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
I'm so glad you said that. I literally just put
my hand up in the air. This is what I
keep saying to my kids. You're not supposed to know.
You just try you just try stuff. Yeah, just be productive,
Just do something.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
And I want to also add to that, I just
want students and parents out there to genuinely hear just
because you don't follow the crowd doesn't mean you're not
learning and not continuing to develop your skill set. I
genuinely think it's a better type of learning when you
get out of what is such a standardized system that
(12:07):
schools are and you take a minute to work out
who you are.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Amy Dyer, what a delightful conversation. I really hope that
parents will share this with their kids who are going
through those senior years of school, and hopefully it will
lead to some great discussions over the dining table about
what to do, how to do it, and when to
do it.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Yes, I hope so too that they need that safe
space to be able to come.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
Up with it on their own.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Amy Dyer is a careers counselor. You can find her
details at Amydier dot com dot you if you'd like
to engage with Amy and see if she can offer
the advice, support and direction that you might be struggling
to find in your family with your kids. Amy delight
to talk with you. Thanks so much for being on
the podcast. The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin
Ruland from Bridge Media. More information and resources to make
(12:53):
your family happier available at happy families dot com dot
u
Okay, so we are getting towards the business end of
the year, especially if you are sending a year twelve
student off to school. We only have a matter of
weeks now until year twelve exams kick off. A whole
lot of schools have demanded that university applications go in
so that kids know what they're doing next year, assuming
they're going to go to UNI. Today on the podcast,
(00:27):
a conversation about careers, career counseling and what your kids
are supposed to do when it comes to the end
of school. Stay with us. Hello and welcome to The
Happy Family's podcast. Moname's doctor Justin Coulson. This is where
you get real parenting solutions every day on Australia's most
downloaded parenting podcast. Today, I am delighted to be joined
(00:48):
by Amy Dyer. Amy Dyer is a careers counselor with
more than twenty years of experience working with senior school
students in schools around Queensland. Her aim is to empowers
you some parents to make informed decisions regarding senior schooling
and vocational and tertiary pathways. We will link to Amy's
(01:08):
details in the show notes. But Amy really glad that
you've joined me on the podcast today, I'm putting my
fourth daughter, three year twelve. As we speak, she's about
to do a final exams. We're literally living it and
going through everything's associated with it right now. And the
scaling conversation is one that keeps on coming up, and
it's one that I sort of dismissed with a wave
of the hand and say, don't worry about it, it
(01:30):
doesn't matter. But for parents who are really concerned about
how their students subjects, how their child subjects are going
to be scaled up or down, and where they come
in the class and the cohort and that sort of thing,
what does this really mean?
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Yeah, this could be a controversial answer because it's not
going to suit the narrative of all schools. So scaling
is something if we're going to keep it really simple,
where there is a governing body and they determine what
subjects scale higher or lower. Scaling simply means that there
is a decision that has been made by somebody else,
(02:04):
not the school, that determines that, for example, a higher
level math is harder.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
To achieve well in than a lower level math. But
that spreads across the entire curriculum of subjects.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
So when we're talking scaling, there are a lot of
myths out there, and I spend a lot of my
day busting those myths. But essentially, from my point of
view and from my opinion only, I look at scaling
as important if you are wanting, needing or know you
can achieve an ATAR of about a ninety five or higher.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
When we're playing in that.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Upper end of the atars, we do need to look
at scaling. Unfortunately, there are just some subjects that if
you choose to do them, they could limit your ability
to get.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Up into that range. But I guess the question justin
is whether or not you need to be in that range, because.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
There is a way to get into any course and
any outcome in any career, irrespective of ATA. And that
is the job that I essentially do working with students
to look at what's direct and what we can use
as a backup to get to UNI. But if we
start talking about scaling and making sure that we're doing
subjects that get us up into that high range, I
(03:16):
think what we're essentially doing to our students is teaching
them that the purpose of learning is to get the
best result possible. And as you and I know, if
we can look at our time in industry and time
in work, we're not actually about the best result. We're
about the most appropriate result, what works for our business,
what works for our day to day world. And that
(03:38):
doesn't have to mean that we have achieved exceptionally well,
it just means that we know what we're doing, and
we're capable, and we actually enjoy what we're learning and
what we're working toward.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Amy, let's go there. I was going to come to
this later, but you've brought it up tertiary pathways. Well,
first of all, I just have this belief that children
and shouldn't be going straight to university. So here's my
question for your gap years gap yeares, Over the last
i'd say ten years, I've shifted enormously from maybe to
(04:11):
almost definitely accept in the rarest of cases. Now, that's
a fairly extreme position to hold. But where do you
stand on gap years? What are your thoughts?
Speaker 2 (04:19):
I'm with you there, justin I would say that there
was a point in time where I was the same
as you that just be careful.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
We don't want to stop the momentum.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
We want that learning to continue from school, into university
and then into industry. But recently there has been and
when I say recently, I'm thinking somewhere in around the
last five to ten years, there has been a certain
change that has we just seem to be seeing higher
levels of burnout with our students. And I find that
(04:52):
I'm having a lot of conversations with students where they're saying,
I just need a minute, I just need to finish
year twelve, and I just need a in it.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
And I think because we go.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Back to this narrative all the time of what is
success when you're in a school system, success is the
atar that's the ultimate for most students that are eligible.
I find that if I'm having a conversation with my
vocational students, that is not their narrative of success. They
have found a different way to work through their schooling
(05:22):
and they have a different idea of what their goals
are and why they're working in the way that they are.
But those that are working in an atar narrative, we
are looking at success based on the number that they achieve.
And I will often ask students do you have a
number in mind? And they will simply say yes, I do.
And I ask if you don't achieve that how you feel,
(05:43):
and I do here certainly through a wide variety of
clients that it can look like failure if they don't
get to that number.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
So University, a couple of quick ideas here, and I'd
love to get your support or any pushback on what
I'm about to share. First off, I failed year twelve.
I mean, I keep on talking about how I graduated
year twelve, but I think that's an inappropriate term to
use because I scored on the bottom fifteenth percent of
the state. But I did complete year twelve somehow. I've
got a piece of paper that said that I was finished.
(06:20):
So I finished school somehow. I got to the end
of year twelve, had a radio career media for nearly
a decade, and then went back to Taife and then
university as a twenty seven year old and stayed for
eight and a half years full time study and ended
up being a doctor. I have a couple of friends
who have done similar things. In fact, I've got one
mate who've finished school halfway through year eleven, just hated
(06:41):
it and then went on to go to university later
in life and became a He's now a specialist working
in hospitals in South Australia. All of this is to say,
we make such a big deal about getting into your
first preference or getting into university or whatever it is.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
I feel like.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
There's just so much angst and so much stress around
it completely unnecessarily tell me where I'm wrong or am
I dead on?
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Here? Are you dead on?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
That's a big one to unpack, and I think I
want to start with saying that when I meet with
students and we are having genuine and authentic conversations about
their interest areas, and I don't talk to them about
their results at all, I ask them about the way
in which they process information, how they like to learn,
are they problem solvers?
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Are they communicators? I ask them a simple question like
what does leadership look like to you?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
And because we don't ask students these questions, because they're
not wrapped up around assessments, they actually don't really know
how to answer some of these questions. So when they
are picking a course, and when we've sort of narrowed
it down to a few areas, I'll find there's often
hesitancy when we're looking at courses that have a high atar,
(07:57):
and I will ask them is this because this is
not some thing that you're thinking is for you, or
are you worried you simply can't get the atar, so
you are going to.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Exclude it from your choices.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
And more often than not, students are putting those invisible
barriers up because they think, well, I can't get to
that atar, so therefore that can't be the career for me,
even though after all of my questions that I've asked them,
it would be a great fit.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
So that's when we have the conversation about what a
pathway can look like.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Let's talk about vocational studies and trades. My contention, my
hypothesis is as follows. We have a trades shortage. We
don't have enough houses, we don't have enough electricians, we
don't have enough plumbers, we don't have enough people who
can build stuff, and our country is only getting bigger.
And therefore, my sense is that if you've got a
child who wants to get into any of the trades,
manual trades, or even the indoor trades, there is going
(08:48):
to be so much demand for their services that they
will be able to forge a successful career, make all
the money that they need, and do just fine in life.
Two questions here, Am I right? And how do we
reduce the stigma for kids who go to university given
that only thirty percent of Australia dults do have a
university degree.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Well, that's a big question and one that I actually
feel genuinely passionate about. I've grown up in a family
of tradees. I personally went to university, but I have
a number of trades that surround me and they've been
extremely successful in their lives. I think that we as
parents need to do our research on the school we are.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Sending our student to.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
And I might be baking a broad statement here, but
we don't know what We don't know who our children.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
Are when we start them somewhere in prep.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
So for me, if I was looking for a school
that was able to support my student whichever way that
they decide to grow and develop, I would be looking
at a school that comes from the angle of do
they offer a broad curriculum and can my student or
can my child world be successful in school with a
(10:03):
trade and can they achieve well with an am tariff?
Speaker 3 (10:06):
UNI is for them?
Speaker 2 (10:07):
So we have our state schooling is amazing for that
they have one of the most broadest curriculums that they
can to suit all the different learners that go into
our state system from the private sector. It is a business,
and they are going to choose the narrative that best
suits the clients how they're aiming for.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
So some private schools are going to be very heavy
and vocational.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Some are going to balance their curriculum across both, and
others are going to stay in that more academic space.
None of those schools are right or wrong. They all
have a place. We just have to make sure that
if our student is at a school where you're feeling
it's not going to meet their needs moving forward, that
(10:54):
it's okay to make a move.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
It's safe to make a move.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
And it will allow your student or your child to
be able to develop a skill set that aligns more
with who they are as they grow and develop and
as we learn who they are.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Okay, so my segue into my final question, how does
other than maybe listen to a conversation like this, How
does a kid in your ten year eleven or year twelve,
or even a twenty four year old, or perhaps even
a forty six year old who's listening to us talk now,
how do you decide what you're supposed to do with
your life.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
You start with your best guess and see where it
leads you.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
I'm so glad you said that. I literally just put
my hand up in the air. This is what I
keep saying to my kids. You're not supposed to know.
You just try you just try stuff. Yeah, just be productive,
Just do something.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
And I want to also add to that, I just
want students and parents out there to genuinely hear just
because you don't follow the crowd doesn't mean you're not
learning and not continuing to develop your skill set. I
genuinely think it's a better type of learning when you
get out of what is such a standardized system that
(12:07):
schools are and you take a minute to work out
who you are.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Amy Dyer, what a delightful conversation. I really hope that
parents will share this with their kids who are going
through those senior years of school, and hopefully it will
lead to some great discussions over the dining table about
what to do, how to do it, and when to
do it.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Yes, I hope so too that they need that safe
space to be able to come.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
Up with it on their own.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Amy Dyer is a careers counselor. You can find her
details at Amydier dot com dot you if you'd like
to engage with Amy and see if she can offer
the advice, support and direction that you might be struggling
to find in your family with your kids. Amy delight
to talk with you. Thanks so much for being on
the podcast. The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin
Ruland from Bridge Media. More information and resources to make
(12:53):
your family happier available at happy families dot com dot
u
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