July 22, 2025 • 18 mins
What does “boys will be boys” really mean—and why does it get under so many parents’ skin? In this powerful episode, we dive into the final challenge of Parental Guidance and unpack the loaded stereotypes around masculinity, parenting roles, and what it means to raise emotionally healthy boys in today’s world. From baby dolls to rough-and-tumble play, the conversation gets real about how we guide our sons—and what we might be getting wrong.
KEY POINTS:
- Why the phrase “boys will be boys” is not an excuse for bad behaviour
- How TV moments can misrepresent real-life parenting and child behaviour
- The critical role fathers can and should play in early parenting
- Gender roles, cultural expectations, and the policing of boys’ behaviour
- The concept of “surplus value” and helping boys become safe, strong contributors
- The challenge of letting boys be expressive without fear of being labelled or shamed
- Encouraging healthy masculinity without shaming traditional male traits
QUOTE OF THE EPISODE:
“Boys will be boys is never an acceptable excuse when a boy is making others feel unsafe or weaker. Healthy masculinity is about being a bonus — adding value and helping people feel safer and stronger." — Justin Coulson
RESOURCES MENTIONED:
- Parental Guidance Season 3, Episode 4 (available to stream on 9Now)
- Richard Reeves – Of Boys and Men
- Upcoming book on raising boys by Dr Justin Coulson
ACTION STEPS FOR PARENTS:
- Challenge the stereotype: Avoid using phrases like “boys will be boys” to excuse disrespectful or rough behaviour.
- Involve dads early: Regardless of breastfeeding or work roles, dads can actively participate in everything from settling babies to managing household chaos.
- Nurture competence: Support your partner’s (and your child’s) parenting confidence—especially when they feel unsure.
- Talk about gender norms: With both sons and daughters, talk openly about gender expectations, and give them permission to break the mould.
- Model and celebrate healthy masculinity: Encourage boys to add value to others' lives, and help them develop emotional literacy without forcing them to fit a mould.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
And I'm really anti that voice will be boys.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
He really does stereotype type of behavior that is not okay.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Boys will be boys. That is the topic of our
conversation today based on what you would have seen on
Monday night in episode for the limited season finale of
Parental Guidance on nine. You can catch up on nine now.
Streaming is still available for all three seasons. Oh my goodness,
do we have some stuff to talk about today? Could
(00:35):
Welcome to The Happy Family's podcast Real Parenting Solutions. Every
day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast, We are justin
and Kylie Colson. Kylie, your jaw was on the floor,
like you just kept on looking at me and gripping
my knee and going, oh my goodness, oh my goodness,
every time somebody would say something gripping, compelling, fascinating, television,
(00:59):
great conversations on Monday night.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
The frustration for me is that we're watching the edited version.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
I actually wanted to be in the room, like, whoa.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
It was so much fun. So let's let's let's set
this up. For those of you who are either overseas
listening to the pod or you just haven't been able
to get to it to watch it. Yet the challenge was, well,
let me play the audio and we'll share what the
challenge was.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Kids, we got a message, how do you really parent?
Speaker 5 (01:27):
To find out give your children a chance to act
as parents.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
The new baby is waiting. Are you ready? Yeah, I'm sure.
Speaker 6 (01:38):
How exciting.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
So yesterday we talked about three of the four families,
but today it's the five boys, the life school parent family.
Speaker 5 (01:47):
Ah, all right, he's grabbing.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
Come on you, my moms and dads.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
It's the world chambien Ship baby thrower.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Let's talk to our panel.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Parents.
Speaker 6 (02:05):
Your eldest is going to make a great father one day.
Obviously he remembers having the little siblings, and then you know,
they're playing, they're working around, having fun. The boys were boys.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
We need to have a conversation about that comment. Boys
will be boys. That's the whole purpose to yes, But
I just wanted to highlight first that I think it's
a very unfair reflection of who these boys are and
what they are as they played with this doll. Number one,
(02:36):
they're not versed with playing with dolls in general. This
is a very unique situation for them. But secondly, I
can almost certainly guarantee you that if a baby, a
real life baby, was placed in their arms, we would
see an entirely different side of them.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
I want to push even further. I would say they
would be nurturing.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
I would say that they would pick up that baby
and they would nurse it and cuddle it, and.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
They would be calm and they would be So what
we saw on TV was great TV, yes, but I
don't think it's a real reflection of who these boys are.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
I can vouch just for myself. I have literally footy
pasts our children's dolls around the living room when we've
had other men in the room, Hey catch and just
throwing the doll across the room. But here's the main
thing that I want to emphasize on what you've just said.
It's not about how they played doll. It's about the
conversation that it sparks. Yeah, and didn't it spark a conversation?
Speaker 6 (03:31):
And I'm really anti that boys will be boys?
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Okay. It really does stereotype type of behavior.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
That is not okay.
Speaker 5 (03:40):
Boys aren't naturally nurturing, you know, and they showed that there.
Speaker 6 (03:46):
You know, they can be if a man has to
change an happy or cook and clean doesn't make this
of a man.
Speaker 5 (03:52):
The first six to twelve months of the baby's life,
especially if you're naturally nursing, the father essentially not exists.
All it cares for is mum.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
So the boys will be boys. Conversation is coming, but
first we need to talk about this.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
I want to take on this idea that babies only
want their mums. This was actually probably a bit of
a fallacy that you lived into in our first few
years of marriage. But there is so much scope for
dads to get involved. If mum is breastfeeding, it makes
it a little bit trickier because they're nurturing takes place
(04:29):
in that space. But outside of that, a baby needs
their nappies change, a baby needs a bath, a baby
needs to be burped, a baby needs to be soothed
and comforted. If there's opportunities for bottle feeding, dads can
get involved with the bottle feeding. They can help put
the baby to sleep, they can do tummy time supervision,
they can read and sing to them. Like there is
so much scope for dads to get involved without having
(04:53):
to breastfeed a baby.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
They can push the baby around the neighborhood in the pram.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Which you were really good at, you were a really
good at. But then there's also getting up to the
baby at night. You know, even if mum is breastfeeding,
they can get up in the middle of the night,
pick the baby up so that or allow mum to
feed it and then do the rest. But there is
so much in just that. But they can also take
care of, you know, the meals. They can help with
(05:18):
the chores around the house. They can manage your visitors
in those early weeks dealing with the changes that take
place in your lifestyle, and especially for a mum, having
someone else manage all of that, that's huge. They can
encourage mum to rest, they can do what's needful so
that she gets what she needs in order to be
(05:39):
able to be at her best.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
They can look after the big kids if there are
older kids.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
They can attend appointments. They can help with the breastfeeding
set up like they you know, when when you go
out walking, they can push the pram or they can
carry the baby like it.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Just so, Joshua was wrong, is what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Highly entirely. Let me just pick that can do the laundry,
let me pick up I can take the photos.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
There are two things that I say here. First of all,
in the early days of our marriage and with our
first couple of kids, I was a radio announcer. I
always had to be on, Like, if you're showing up
on the radio, you've got to be able to do
the job and be sparky, right.
Speaker 6 (06:20):
Like.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
It's a bit like being a professional athlete. I can't
believe I've just compared radio anounces to professional athletes, but
I can't.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Believe to do that anyway.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
It's a performance kind of thing. You've got to be
able to be there and do it well.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Well, you did live into that excuse.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
I did, that's right, But I did many of the
things that you've highlighted there as well. But I definitely
sort of looked at it and said, no, I've got
to be able to I've got to be able to
perform during the day, so I need my sleep. You're
going to have to do the nighttime shift.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
But I think I think what it came down to, though, essentially,
is number one. I lived into that role of nurturer
deeply and cherished that. But for you, there was a
level of feeling incompetent totally, and I didn't recognize that
as a young mum and didn't recognize the part I
(07:08):
could play in nurturing your ability to develop and grow
as a dad.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
That's a great insight and so and I was much
more involved even at night times as we had children four,
five and six.
Speaker 6 (07:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yeah, but it comes down to a level of competence.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Competence.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
It had zero competence in the beginning, and therefore you
were fearful. Let's put it there. You were fearful.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Something important to highlight as well, though when Josh said
my child doesn't want me, that as someone's right in
saying how much time you're spending with the child. There
is that element of it. But there is this thing
called an attachment hierarchy, and children do have usually mum
at the top of that hierarchy, and quite often they
will push that away, especially from about nine to twelve months.
That's when it kicks in and it can carry on
(07:52):
for a couple of years. That's not an excuse for
dads to step out. In fact, if anything, is an
excuse for dads to take opportunities when the baby's not
being resist and build the relationship. We need to move
on because there's so much to talk about. Yeah, so
after the break we are going to talk about this.
Speaker 5 (08:08):
I think we should be very careful not to feminize
our males too much in society.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Oh, I guess what's rubbing me the wrong way?
Speaker 7 (08:17):
Your thoughts are really this is what goes on fair
enough in your world around the people that you choose
to hang around. That might happen, but that's not the
whole world. Also, I do a lot of men in
this society these days as well are.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Not great men. I think we need to change that, Kylie.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
The debate about gender stereotypes kicked off, and this was
the conversation that had everybody riveted to the screen like
we had another watch party, and everybody was just like, whoa, we've.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Been light on facials in this particular season. Holy smokes,
they all came out on Monday night.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Let's replay what Courtney said our pro tech mum.
Speaker 7 (09:10):
I do a lot of men in this society these
days as well are not great men.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
I think we need to change that.
Speaker 5 (09:18):
I think we should be very careful not to feminize
our males too much in society.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Oh okay, Kylie, let's talk about here about gender roles,
about kids about healthy concepts of masculinity. Where do you
want to start?
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I actually want to ask you a question.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
I love it when you ask me questions.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Go This conversation was massive. I can only imagine what
the long take would have given us if we have
been able to see everything that you guys talked about
in the studio. But what is the world telling our
young boys and girls about their genders that we need
to be aware of? Because this conversation that you had
in that room was intense.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
So really speaking, I think most people are pretty relaxed
about girls growing up and making whatever decisions they want.
So there was that line that Amy, the active parent mum, said.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
I don't think that you should have gender roles even
from a young age. The boys. My girls play with
trucks just as much as my boys will play with
dress gender and my boy's favorite carlor. If you'd ask
them right now, I'd be pink.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Most people are pretty relaxed about their daughters wanting to
be anything, including what have been traditionally male oriented roles
like plumbers and electricians and so on. Pretty rare that
you get a female plumber, by the way, about one
in two hundred and fifty. For every two hundred and
fifty men who are plumbers will be one woman. Electricians,
it's about one percent of electricians a female. But we
see more and more females. In fact, there are more
(10:46):
females doing a whole lot of professional roles now that
will want the domain of men.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
So I would have to believe that the feminist movement
has impacted that, yeah, in a huge way.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
And I would say for good, like this.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Idea that girls can be anything that they want to do,
and they can do yeah power.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Yeah, yeah, go girls, spice, girls, sporty spice. I've forgotten
the other one's theory, spice. Whoever. Like let's talk about
the boys, though, there was a question what about your
boy who wants to wear pink? Or what about if
your boy wants to wear a skirt. Here's what I'll say.
I'm a man who's very happy to wear a pink shirt.
I think I look really good in pink. I'm not
worried about that. As a man who is confident in
my masculinity and in my identity, I'm comfortable with who
(11:25):
I am. But boys police one another's behavior, and they
do it very very strongly, no matter how enlightened you
might be as a parent. No matter how much you
might tell boys that they can do anything and be anything.
In the playground and online, boys are policed in a
way that girls are not. So I've been writing my
(11:46):
book about boys. We'll put a link into the show
notes so that if you'd like to sign up for
when it's available, we can give you the first lot
of news. But as I'm writing this book, what I
found was this, When girls decide that they want to
go play with the boys, the boys think that's pretty weird,
but the girls are fine with it, like, no girls
are going, how can we playing with the boys? The
(12:06):
girls are just like, yeah, okay, play with who you want.
And when a boy wants to go and hang out
with the girls, the girls are fine with it. The
guy's like, yeah, you can hang out with us, that's fine,
Like it doesn't bother them at all. But when a
boy leaves his mates and goes to hang out with
the girls, the boys start to call him names. The
(12:27):
boys call him a simp, or they call him a
war so they call him they call him gay. They like,
the name calling starts, and the policing happens. Boy wearing pink.
I don't know where that's up to anymore. I don't
think it's as big a deal as it once was.
A boy wearing a skirt. It's just not gonna happen.
I know that everyone on the TV show, well not everyone,
but several people on the show are being quite enlightened.
And we'll talk about this more tomorrow. But when I
(12:50):
talk to the boys, when I talk to parents, when
I talk to school teachers, it just doesn't happen. And
when somebody chooses to do it, it's considered weird. That's
why it makes the papers. When Richard Wilkins from The
Today showed the Entertainment Reporter when his son Christian wears
a skirt on the red carpet, or when one of
the One Direction boys wears a skirt to a premiere
of something or other, it makes the news because it's
(13:12):
stepping outside the gender roles. No one cares about a
woman wearing pants, but everyone does care about a man
wearing a skirt unless he's Scottish. You know what's worn
under a scotsmanth kilt.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Please don't go there.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
Nothing. Everything is in perfect working order. That's okay. I'll
move on.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
There was definitely division in the room around what it
means to be a healthy masculine man. Yeah, yeah, yeah
on the show. Can you kind of just round it
out for us?
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Yeah, I mean, I'm giving away everything that my book
is about. But my book is about three things, and
they're all the same thing. It's just saying it three
different ways. First of all, it's about teaching our boys
that they need to show up and be a bonus
in the lives of the people around them. That they
need to provide surplus value. That's what Richard Reeves, the
author of Boys and Men and the president of the
(14:10):
American Institute for Boys and Men, describes. This guy is
a screaming left wing liberal. He is a mega feminist.
But he's created the Institute for Boys and Men because
boys and men are struggling. Males are struggling in our
community in a way that they never had before, and
they're just falling so far behind the girls.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
So when I was in high school, the acronym SNAG.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Was a sensitive new age guys.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yeah, And as a girl, it was such a positive
to have a male who was in touch enough with
his feelings that he could be open and vulnerable and
discuss those feelings with you like that was huge.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Yeah, And I think that's part of where the mannosphere
impacts people in comments like Josh's, I think.
Speaker 5 (14:59):
We should be very careful not to feminize our males
too much in society.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Oh, a lot of people feel like it is weak
to speak. There's bumper stickers everywhere. It ain't weak to speak, right,
But I'm not actually pushing for our boys to be
soft spoken and be sensitive new age guys. If that
doesn't resonate for them, I'm pushing for them too. And
this is the third of my three things. Be a
(15:24):
bonus ad surplus value, and help the people around you
to feel safer and stronger.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
So, as a female, when I have a male in
my mitt who is comfortable enough to connect with me
on that level, I feel safe and secure.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Great. Yeah. And therefore it's being able to read the
room and to be considerate of others, and to be
able to share in a way that allows others to
feel safe and secure that you're trustworthy.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yeah. I'm not expecting them to be a female. I'm
not expecting them to hide the robust natures that they
may have. It, but it makes a huge difference when
I also don't have to hide my emotional side, for instance,
because he can't cope with the emotions.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
There's a lot of eye rolls in the room. There
was a lot of big emotion when the comment boys
will be boys was trodden out. Boys will be boys
is never an acceptable reason to excuse poor behavior. That is,
when it's somebody, when a male is not being a bonus,
when he's not adding surplus value but he's actually taking
from the room, or when he is not helping people
(16:30):
to feel safer and stronger, when he's making people feel
weaker and unsafe. Boys will be boys is an appalling
and just It's devastating and detrimental for every male, but
also for every female when that gets trotted out. I'm
actually comfortable with the line. When we're laughing about a
bunch of boys kicking a foot around on the beach
(16:50):
and tackling each other in the waves while the girls
lay there in sun bacon read their phones or their books.
That's boys being boys, and I think that we should
celebrate those elements of masculine. That's the joy of being
a guy. Guys get to do that stuff and they
love it. But as soon as it crosses that line,
boys will be boys is anathema to what healthy masculinity is.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
There is enough research to suggest that we thrive on touch,
and as females, our touch is kind and gentle, and
we give each other a hug or you know, hold
hands or whatever it is. Men don't do that. No,
their touch comes from the rough and tumble. That's actually
where they get their touch so much. It's such an
(17:33):
important part development.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
But knowing when like, it's not okay for me to
tackle you, Okay, maybe don't roll your eyes and look
like that is a parenting podcast. Anyway, Our time's up.
We're going to stop there tomorrow. We are going to
deal with this.
Speaker 6 (17:50):
If my kids decided, well they're not going to but
if they decided they were men, that wouldn't be an
option in our house. So very clear, God, it won't happen.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
Strapian Astrapian, Oh my goodness, I mean, I just love
this show. Gosh. I hope we get to do a
season four. But we'll talk more about episode four from
season three and that big topic tomorrow on the podcast.
The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Roland from
Bridge Media. MIM Hammonds provides research and other support. Craig
(18:22):
Bruce has been our executive producer for this limited series.
More information and more resources to make you family happier
is available at happy families dot com dot au
And I'm really anti that voice will be boys.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
He really does stereotype type of behavior that is not okay.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Boys will be boys. That is the topic of our
conversation today based on what you would have seen on
Monday night in episode for the limited season finale of
Parental Guidance on nine. You can catch up on nine now.
Streaming is still available for all three seasons. Oh my goodness,
do we have some stuff to talk about today? Could
(00:35):
Welcome to The Happy Family's podcast Real Parenting Solutions. Every
day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast, We are justin
and Kylie Colson. Kylie, your jaw was on the floor,
like you just kept on looking at me and gripping
my knee and going, oh my goodness, oh my goodness,
every time somebody would say something gripping, compelling, fascinating, television,
(00:59):
great conversations on Monday night.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
The frustration for me is that we're watching the edited version.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
I actually wanted to be in the room, like, whoa.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
It was so much fun. So let's let's let's set
this up. For those of you who are either overseas
listening to the pod or you just haven't been able
to get to it to watch it. Yet the challenge was, well,
let me play the audio and we'll share what the
challenge was.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Kids, we got a message, how do you really parent?
Speaker 5 (01:27):
To find out give your children a chance to act
as parents.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
The new baby is waiting. Are you ready? Yeah, I'm sure.
Speaker 6 (01:38):
How exciting.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
So yesterday we talked about three of the four families,
but today it's the five boys, the life school parent family.
Speaker 5 (01:47):
Ah, all right, he's grabbing.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
Come on you, my moms and dads.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
It's the world chambien Ship baby thrower.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Let's talk to our panel.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Parents.
Speaker 6 (02:05):
Your eldest is going to make a great father one day.
Obviously he remembers having the little siblings, and then you know,
they're playing, they're working around, having fun. The boys were boys.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
We need to have a conversation about that comment. Boys
will be boys. That's the whole purpose to yes, But
I just wanted to highlight first that I think it's
a very unfair reflection of who these boys are and
what they are as they played with this doll. Number one,
(02:36):
they're not versed with playing with dolls in general. This
is a very unique situation for them. But secondly, I
can almost certainly guarantee you that if a baby, a
real life baby, was placed in their arms, we would
see an entirely different side of them.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
I want to push even further. I would say they
would be nurturing.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
I would say that they would pick up that baby
and they would nurse it and cuddle it, and.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
They would be calm and they would be So what
we saw on TV was great TV, yes, but I
don't think it's a real reflection of who these boys are.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
I can vouch just for myself. I have literally footy
pasts our children's dolls around the living room when we've
had other men in the room, Hey catch and just
throwing the doll across the room. But here's the main
thing that I want to emphasize on what you've just said.
It's not about how they played doll. It's about the
conversation that it sparks. Yeah, and didn't it spark a conversation?
Speaker 6 (03:31):
And I'm really anti that boys will be boys?
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Okay. It really does stereotype type of behavior.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
That is not okay.
Speaker 5 (03:40):
Boys aren't naturally nurturing, you know, and they showed that there.
Speaker 6 (03:46):
You know, they can be if a man has to
change an happy or cook and clean doesn't make this
of a man.
Speaker 5 (03:52):
The first six to twelve months of the baby's life,
especially if you're naturally nursing, the father essentially not exists.
All it cares for is mum.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
So the boys will be boys. Conversation is coming, but
first we need to talk about this.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
I want to take on this idea that babies only
want their mums. This was actually probably a bit of
a fallacy that you lived into in our first few
years of marriage. But there is so much scope for
dads to get involved. If mum is breastfeeding, it makes
it a little bit trickier because they're nurturing takes place
(04:29):
in that space. But outside of that, a baby needs
their nappies change, a baby needs a bath, a baby
needs to be burped, a baby needs to be soothed
and comforted. If there's opportunities for bottle feeding, dads can
get involved with the bottle feeding. They can help put
the baby to sleep, they can do tummy time supervision,
they can read and sing to them. Like there is
so much scope for dads to get involved without having
(04:53):
to breastfeed a baby.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
They can push the baby around the neighborhood in the pram.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Which you were really good at, you were a really
good at. But then there's also getting up to the
baby at night. You know, even if mum is breastfeeding,
they can get up in the middle of the night,
pick the baby up so that or allow mum to
feed it and then do the rest. But there is
so much in just that. But they can also take
care of, you know, the meals. They can help with
(05:18):
the chores around the house. They can manage your visitors
in those early weeks dealing with the changes that take
place in your lifestyle, and especially for a mum, having
someone else manage all of that, that's huge. They can
encourage mum to rest, they can do what's needful so
that she gets what she needs in order to be
(05:39):
able to be at her best.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
They can look after the big kids if there are
older kids.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
They can attend appointments. They can help with the breastfeeding
set up like they you know, when when you go
out walking, they can push the pram or they can
carry the baby like it.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Just so, Joshua was wrong, is what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Highly entirely. Let me just pick that can do the laundry,
let me pick up I can take the photos.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
There are two things that I say here. First of all,
in the early days of our marriage and with our
first couple of kids, I was a radio announcer. I
always had to be on, Like, if you're showing up
on the radio, you've got to be able to do
the job and be sparky, right.
Speaker 6 (06:20):
Like.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
It's a bit like being a professional athlete. I can't
believe I've just compared radio anounces to professional athletes, but
I can't.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Believe to do that anyway.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
It's a performance kind of thing. You've got to be
able to be there and do it well.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Well, you did live into that excuse.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
I did, that's right, But I did many of the
things that you've highlighted there as well. But I definitely
sort of looked at it and said, no, I've got
to be able to I've got to be able to
perform during the day, so I need my sleep. You're
going to have to do the nighttime shift.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
But I think I think what it came down to, though, essentially,
is number one. I lived into that role of nurturer
deeply and cherished that. But for you, there was a
level of feeling incompetent totally, and I didn't recognize that
as a young mum and didn't recognize the part I
(07:08):
could play in nurturing your ability to develop and grow
as a dad.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
That's a great insight and so and I was much
more involved even at night times as we had children four,
five and six.
Speaker 6 (07:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yeah, but it comes down to a level of competence.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Competence.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
It had zero competence in the beginning, and therefore you
were fearful. Let's put it there. You were fearful.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Something important to highlight as well, though when Josh said
my child doesn't want me, that as someone's right in
saying how much time you're spending with the child. There
is that element of it. But there is this thing
called an attachment hierarchy, and children do have usually mum
at the top of that hierarchy, and quite often they
will push that away, especially from about nine to twelve months.
That's when it kicks in and it can carry on
(07:52):
for a couple of years. That's not an excuse for
dads to step out. In fact, if anything, is an
excuse for dads to take opportunities when the baby's not
being resist and build the relationship. We need to move
on because there's so much to talk about. Yeah, so
after the break we are going to talk about this.
Speaker 5 (08:08):
I think we should be very careful not to feminize
our males too much in society.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Oh, I guess what's rubbing me the wrong way?
Speaker 7 (08:17):
Your thoughts are really this is what goes on fair
enough in your world around the people that you choose
to hang around. That might happen, but that's not the
whole world. Also, I do a lot of men in
this society these days as well are.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Not great men. I think we need to change that, Kylie.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
The debate about gender stereotypes kicked off, and this was
the conversation that had everybody riveted to the screen like
we had another watch party, and everybody was just like, whoa, we've.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Been light on facials in this particular season. Holy smokes,
they all came out on Monday night.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Let's replay what Courtney said our pro tech mum.
Speaker 7 (09:10):
I do a lot of men in this society these
days as well are not great men.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
I think we need to change that.
Speaker 5 (09:18):
I think we should be very careful not to feminize
our males too much in society.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Oh okay, Kylie, let's talk about here about gender roles,
about kids about healthy concepts of masculinity. Where do you
want to start?
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I actually want to ask you a question.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
I love it when you ask me questions.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Go This conversation was massive. I can only imagine what
the long take would have given us if we have
been able to see everything that you guys talked about
in the studio. But what is the world telling our
young boys and girls about their genders that we need
to be aware of? Because this conversation that you had
in that room was intense.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
So really speaking, I think most people are pretty relaxed
about girls growing up and making whatever decisions they want.
So there was that line that Amy, the active parent mum, said.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
I don't think that you should have gender roles even
from a young age. The boys. My girls play with
trucks just as much as my boys will play with
dress gender and my boy's favorite carlor. If you'd ask
them right now, I'd be pink.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Most people are pretty relaxed about their daughters wanting to
be anything, including what have been traditionally male oriented roles
like plumbers and electricians and so on. Pretty rare that
you get a female plumber, by the way, about one
in two hundred and fifty. For every two hundred and
fifty men who are plumbers will be one woman. Electricians,
it's about one percent of electricians a female. But we
see more and more females. In fact, there are more
(10:46):
females doing a whole lot of professional roles now that
will want the domain of men.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
So I would have to believe that the feminist movement
has impacted that, yeah, in a huge way.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
And I would say for good, like this.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Idea that girls can be anything that they want to do,
and they can do yeah power.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Yeah, yeah, go girls, spice, girls, sporty spice. I've forgotten
the other one's theory, spice. Whoever. Like let's talk about
the boys, though, there was a question what about your
boy who wants to wear pink? Or what about if
your boy wants to wear a skirt. Here's what I'll say.
I'm a man who's very happy to wear a pink shirt.
I think I look really good in pink. I'm not
worried about that. As a man who is confident in
my masculinity and in my identity, I'm comfortable with who
(11:25):
I am. But boys police one another's behavior, and they
do it very very strongly, no matter how enlightened you
might be as a parent. No matter how much you
might tell boys that they can do anything and be anything.
In the playground and online, boys are policed in a
way that girls are not. So I've been writing my
(11:46):
book about boys. We'll put a link into the show
notes so that if you'd like to sign up for
when it's available, we can give you the first lot
of news. But as I'm writing this book, what I
found was this, When girls decide that they want to
go play with the boys, the boys think that's pretty weird,
but the girls are fine with it, like, no girls
are going, how can we playing with the boys? The
(12:06):
girls are just like, yeah, okay, play with who you want.
And when a boy wants to go and hang out
with the girls, the girls are fine with it. The
guy's like, yeah, you can hang out with us, that's fine,
Like it doesn't bother them at all. But when a
boy leaves his mates and goes to hang out with
the girls, the boys start to call him names. The
(12:27):
boys call him a simp, or they call him a
war so they call him they call him gay. They like,
the name calling starts, and the policing happens. Boy wearing pink.
I don't know where that's up to anymore. I don't
think it's as big a deal as it once was.
A boy wearing a skirt. It's just not gonna happen.
I know that everyone on the TV show, well not everyone,
but several people on the show are being quite enlightened.
And we'll talk about this more tomorrow. But when I
(12:50):
talk to the boys, when I talk to parents, when
I talk to school teachers, it just doesn't happen. And
when somebody chooses to do it, it's considered weird. That's
why it makes the papers. When Richard Wilkins from The
Today showed the Entertainment Reporter when his son Christian wears
a skirt on the red carpet, or when one of
the One Direction boys wears a skirt to a premiere
of something or other, it makes the news because it's
(13:12):
stepping outside the gender roles. No one cares about a
woman wearing pants, but everyone does care about a man
wearing a skirt unless he's Scottish. You know what's worn
under a scotsmanth kilt.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Please don't go there.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
Nothing. Everything is in perfect working order. That's okay. I'll
move on.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
There was definitely division in the room around what it
means to be a healthy masculine man. Yeah, yeah, yeah
on the show. Can you kind of just round it
out for us?
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Yeah, I mean, I'm giving away everything that my book
is about. But my book is about three things, and
they're all the same thing. It's just saying it three
different ways. First of all, it's about teaching our boys
that they need to show up and be a bonus
in the lives of the people around them. That they
need to provide surplus value. That's what Richard Reeves, the
author of Boys and Men and the president of the
(14:10):
American Institute for Boys and Men, describes. This guy is
a screaming left wing liberal. He is a mega feminist.
But he's created the Institute for Boys and Men because
boys and men are struggling. Males are struggling in our
community in a way that they never had before, and
they're just falling so far behind the girls.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
So when I was in high school, the acronym SNAG.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Was a sensitive new age guys.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yeah, And as a girl, it was such a positive
to have a male who was in touch enough with
his feelings that he could be open and vulnerable and
discuss those feelings with you like that was huge.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Yeah, And I think that's part of where the mannosphere
impacts people in comments like Josh's, I think.
Speaker 5 (14:59):
We should be very careful not to feminize our males
too much in society.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Oh, a lot of people feel like it is weak
to speak. There's bumper stickers everywhere. It ain't weak to speak, right,
But I'm not actually pushing for our boys to be
soft spoken and be sensitive new age guys. If that
doesn't resonate for them, I'm pushing for them too. And
this is the third of my three things. Be a
(15:24):
bonus ad surplus value, and help the people around you
to feel safer and stronger.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
So, as a female, when I have a male in
my mitt who is comfortable enough to connect with me
on that level, I feel safe and secure.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Great. Yeah. And therefore it's being able to read the
room and to be considerate of others, and to be
able to share in a way that allows others to
feel safe and secure that you're trustworthy.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yeah. I'm not expecting them to be a female. I'm
not expecting them to hide the robust natures that they
may have. It, but it makes a huge difference when
I also don't have to hide my emotional side, for instance,
because he can't cope with the emotions.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
There's a lot of eye rolls in the room. There
was a lot of big emotion when the comment boys
will be boys was trodden out. Boys will be boys
is never an acceptable reason to excuse poor behavior. That is,
when it's somebody, when a male is not being a bonus,
when he's not adding surplus value but he's actually taking
from the room, or when he is not helping people
(16:30):
to feel safer and stronger, when he's making people feel
weaker and unsafe. Boys will be boys is an appalling
and just It's devastating and detrimental for every male, but
also for every female when that gets trotted out. I'm
actually comfortable with the line. When we're laughing about a
bunch of boys kicking a foot around on the beach
(16:50):
and tackling each other in the waves while the girls
lay there in sun bacon read their phones or their books.
That's boys being boys, and I think that we should
celebrate those elements of masculine. That's the joy of being
a guy. Guys get to do that stuff and they
love it. But as soon as it crosses that line,
boys will be boys is anathema to what healthy masculinity is.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
There is enough research to suggest that we thrive on touch,
and as females, our touch is kind and gentle, and
we give each other a hug or you know, hold
hands or whatever it is. Men don't do that. No,
their touch comes from the rough and tumble. That's actually
where they get their touch so much. It's such an
(17:33):
important part development.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
But knowing when like, it's not okay for me to
tackle you, Okay, maybe don't roll your eyes and look
like that is a parenting podcast. Anyway, Our time's up.
We're going to stop there tomorrow. We are going to
deal with this.
Speaker 6 (17:50):
If my kids decided, well they're not going to but
if they decided they were men, that wouldn't be an
option in our house. So very clear, God, it won't happen.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
Strapian Astrapian, Oh my goodness, I mean, I just love
this show. Gosh. I hope we get to do a
season four. But we'll talk more about episode four from
season three and that big topic tomorrow on the podcast.
The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Roland from
Bridge Media. MIM Hammonds provides research and other support. Craig
(18:22):
Bruce has been our executive producer for this limited series.
More information and more resources to make you family happier
is available at happy families dot com dot au
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