October 14, 2025 • 17 mins
Teens are forming emotional bonds — not just online, but with AI companions. In this episode, Dr Justin Coulson talks with Brown University psychologist Dr Jacqueline Nesi, author of Techno Sapiens, about the fast-growing world of AI “friendships” and what they mean for kids’ mental health. They also unpack Jackie’s latest research revealing how often teens check their phones — and how it’s shaping their moods.
It’s a must-listen for parents navigating the blurred lines between connection, distraction, and dependence in the digital age.
KEY POINTS
- 72% of teens have used an AI companion; over half use one regularly.
- AI chatbots are designed to keep kids engaged — often prioritising screen time over wellbeing.
- For some vulnerable kids, AI chats can feel like friendship or therapy — but they aren’t replacements for real connection.
- Australia’s new social-media age-limit laws may help, but implementation and design flaws remain.
- Teens check their phones an average of 112 times a day — once every 10 minutes!
- Frequent phone checking is linked with greater emotional ups and downs.
- Teens who are less mindful tend to reach for their phones more after bad days — using screens as emotional regulation tools.
- What matters most: how kids use technology and who they are, not just how much.
QUOTE OF THE EPISODE
“The effects of smartphones on mood and wellbeing are complicated — it’s not that phones are simply bad, it’s about who’s using them and how.”
RESOURCES MENTIONED
- Techno Sapiens – Dr Jacqueline Nesi’s Substack
- Tech Without Stress – Resources for parents
- Happy Families – More parenting resources
ACTION STEPS FOR PARENTS
- Ask your kids how they use AI or chatbots — listen before you lecture.
- Check your family’s phone “pickups” using Screen Time or Digital Wellbeing.
- Practise mindfulness together — simple breathing, no-tech walks, or screen-free meals.
- Talk about emotional regulation — help kids notice when they’re using tech to cope.
- Model balance — show that your phone doesn’t rule you either.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello and welcome to the Happy Family Podcast. A couple
of months ago on Parental Guidance, you heard this, I no,
I am a human who absolutely loves donuts. I am
(00:22):
just obsessed with them, but I am one hundred percent human.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
AI chatbots replacing real friends? Is it possible? Today on
the podcast, we discussed that with an expert who runs
a substack, one of the best tech substacks in the world.
Jacqueline NeSSI Jackie NeSSI is from Brown University, asking the
question our AI companions replacing real friends because we know
that Ozzie kids are into them? Plus a brand new
(00:50):
study that Jackie's done, the surprising truth about smartphone checking
and mood. How often do your kids pick up their
phones and what does it do to their own motions
and their ability to be in the moment. There's stuff
for you, there's stuff for them. Stay with us. Hello
(01:11):
and welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. Real parenting solutions
every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. My name
is doctor Justin Coulson. Today I'm joined by Jacqueline NeSSI.
Jackie's a clinical psychologist and assistant professor at Brown University
and author of the popular weekly sub stack Techno Sapiens.
I discovered a couple of months ago, and I literally
(01:31):
never miss an episode. An addition, I never missed the newsletter.
I love it, an email. Whatever it is, substack, I've
recently discovered it. I'm into it. Techno Sapiens is the
name of the substack. Jackie's research focuses on the role
of technology and kids' mental health, especially teens, and on
how parents can help. She's the co founder of Tech
Without Stress, which provides online resources and courses for parents
(01:53):
raising kids in the digital age, put together with a
Harvard research as well. We are talking about big guns
and we'll talk about all of that and more today. Jackie,
thank you for staying up late to chat with me
on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
So let's start off with AI bots. You referred in
Techno Sapiens a couple of months ago to a new
article from common Sense Media looking at what's going on
with kids, friends and these brand new AI companions. What
did you discover and why does this matter for parents?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Yeah? So this is really I think kind of the
new frontier for parents when we think about technology and
the ways that it's impacting our kids. I think we
know that generative AI is becoming more and more commonplace,
more ubiquitous. Kids and teens in particular are certainly using it.
And this study from Common Sense Media in particular was
(02:49):
looking at AI companions, so basically the use of AI
for more emotional support, friendship, more sort of companionship. And
one of the most striking findings to me was just
how frequently kids are using these just how sort of
out there they are. So seventy two percent they found
(03:12):
of teens say that they've ever used an AI companion,
which is much higher than I would have anticipated. And
it almost half or a little more than half of
teens are regular users, so they're using these things, you know,
at least a few times a month.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
This really surprised me as well. When we did this
on parental guidance, a couple of kids, we're just like, Eh,
this is kind of dumb, not into this. If I'm
going to talk to somebody, I want to talk to
somebody real. But a couple of the kids were really hooked.
They were really really dragged in. I know that a
lot of adults are using things like chat GPT as
a companion like as a conversation almost as a therapist,
(03:48):
but character dot AI and the other one that I
can think of Israelica Replica. Yeah, they seem to be insidious,
like once the kids start talking with them, the kids
don't want to let go, but the AI can pay
onion doesn't seem to want to let go either. Kay,
spell it for the best.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
I don't need you being my best friend anyway. See. Yes, okay,
here's something concerning who wants to go and the chatbot
is trying to keep them engaged. That's very typical. Of course,
they want users to stay online as long as possible. Yeah,
I think this is this is tricky because I think
right now we're in a phase where these technologies are
(04:25):
being designed and in many cases they're being designed for adults,
right They're they're not being designed specifically for kids or
four teens, and so I think we do run a
little bit of the risk of you know, are these
going to be safe for kids. One thing that I
worry about is what you're talking about, which is that
some of the platforms are designed to increase engagement, so
(04:49):
they're designed to keep the conversation going, you know, as
long as possible, And what that means is that sometimes
you get into situations where maybe the chatbot is saying
things to keep kids engaged, to keep them using them
for longer, and that's not always going to be the
best thing for a given kid, depending on the situation.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
I was talking to a parent just recently about this.
Her son is having a really hard time socially, has
some neurodevelopmental challenges, and this mom said, when he talks
with the AI companion, he feels like he has a friend.
Do you think that teens are replacing real life friends
(05:31):
with AI companions? Is this something that is potentially going
to I mean the numbers are staggering. Three quarters of
kids have tried and half using them with some regularity.
Do you think that this is actually going to become
a thing? And what would you say to a mum
who says, at least my son now has someone to
talk to.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
I think it's important with this, just like it is
with any other technology like social media or smartphones or
whatever it may be, to not paint with too broad
of a brush, because I do think that there are
certainly kids using these tools in certain ways where they
can have real benefits. I think it is the case
that there may be some kids who are struggling in
certain ways and their offline lives or who have you know,
(06:14):
other things going on where then it is helpful for
them just to have another thing out there to get advice,
even to ask about, you know, sort of social skills,
to learn new things. Like. I certainly think that there
can be benefits for some kids. So I personally don't
think and I don't think the research right now would
support the idea that this is all bad and that
(06:35):
we should be you know, and that yeah, and that
it's bad for all kids at all times. I do
think that with the current platforms, like I was saying,
I think that we need more safeguards in place. I
think that these things are being designed for adults, and
we really need if we want kids to be able
to take advantage of the benefits of the platforms, they
(06:55):
really need to be designed for kids. And that means
having some safeguard, it's having some safety futures in place.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Yeah, I have an unanticipated question that just popped into
my head around this kind of technology and social media
more generally. I mean, this is your area of absolute
depth and expertise. The Australian government is introducing minimum age
legislation at the end of the year. Under sixteens won't
be able to access social media platforms without verifying their
(07:24):
age they need well, so if you're under sixteen, you
can't verify your age because you're under sixteen. You've got
to be able to sixteen to use the platforms. And
news just recently was that YouTube would also be included
in that legislation. What do you think about this idea generally?
Is this a good thing or a bad thing that
(07:45):
the government is stepping in and saying the tech companies
can't be trusted with your children and we're going to
therefore introduced legislation to keep your kids safe from these nefarious,
mendacious bad actors.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yeah, I see, you know, I see both sides of
this here where I think. On the one hand, I
do think that there there's always going to be some
kind of age cut off for these types of tools,
right so, you know, in the US, at least right now,
it's effectively thirteen. Of course you can get on younger
than that, but you know, generally most places they're setting
(08:19):
an age limit and saying, hey, here's the age that
we think it's appropriate for kids to be on these platforms,
and so you can debate what is the best age
for that. You know, some would say younger thirteen is better,
some would say older sixteen is better. So that's one
side of it that you know, you need to set
it somewhere, and so why not set it at sixteen?
The biggest challenge that I see with it is that
(08:42):
the implementation, I imagine will be very difficult, and I
could see a situation where you still get a lot
of kids under the age of sixteen who are getting
onto these platforms, and then there's really no incentive for
the companies to then make the products better and save
for four kids, because they can just say, well, there's
(09:05):
none of them on there. They're not supposed to be
on there. And so I think that, you know, ideally,
I think you'd have kind of a two prong solution
where you have a you have a minimum age whatever
you decide that should be, but you also are taking
steps to improve the platforms themselves so that younger users
are having a better experience on there.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Okay, thank you for that. So many things we could
talk about up next, though, we have to have a
chat about this study that you've just done recently looking
at the surprising truth about how often you check your
smartphone and what it does to your mood. Today, I'm
(09:46):
the Happy Families Podcast speaking with Professor Jacqueline NeSSI from
Brown University, mum of two young kids, and the author
of a brand new study looking at the surprising and
revealing truth about how often we check our smartphones and
what it says about our moods, well at least for teenagers. Jackie,
talk us through this study that you did and what
(10:08):
we as parents need to know about our kids and
their smartphones.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
So this study was one that I did in collaboration
with doctor Caitlin Burnell who is at the University of
North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and we did the study
with the team team there at UNC. And what we're
interested in is whether the amount of times that teens
picked up their phones throughout the day had an impact
(10:32):
on their mood. And so actually anyone can check the
number of times that they have picked up their phones
in a given day. If you have an iPhone, for example,
you can go to your screen time app. Do you
have an Android, you can go to what's called Digital
Well Being and it gives you a number of how
many times did you did you pick up your phone?
Speaker 1 (10:49):
I've just checked, I've just checked. I don't know you,
I don't know if I want to confess this or not. Okay,
you would know what the norms are? What would a
typical fifty year old man have for his daily pickup?
Can I get an average just before I revealed?
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Oh you know what? I don't know for a typical
from a typical fifty year old man, I can give
you for teens.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
But what would the average team be?
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yeah? So in our study, we found the average was
one hundred and twelve times per day.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Wow. Wow, okay, so hang on, I want to do
some quick maths before I reveal how many times I'm
looking at my phone per day picking it up? So
one hundred and twelve times a day? How many hours
would you say the average teenager is awake per day?
Is that like? Should we say fourteen hours? Fifteen hours?
Would that be about right?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Okay, So if it's fifteen hours, that's seven and a
half pickups an hour, So that's one pick up less
than every ten minutes. That's on average, right, So the
average kid, yeah, once every ten minutes they're picking up
the phone and looking at it. That must be terrible
for productivity and terrible for getting into flow.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yeah, I mean I think that there we know that
most people are picking up their phones a lot throughout
the day, and that, you know, we don't know in
this study, we don't know exactly, you know, when those
pickups were happening, if it was concentrated at certain times
of day. But certainly you would think also that if
the pickups are happening, you know, in the middle of
the night or during the school day, or you know,
(12:08):
during times when we would hope that other things are happening,
like sleep or you know, engagement in the classroom, you
would think that that would have a negative impact on
productivity and focus.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Okay, so how many times do you pick it up
h day, Jackie? Just i' got to know.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Oh, let's see, my number was when I looked at
this ninety something. Wow.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Okay, so I'm feeling better about life. I'm at forty four.
Forty four.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Oh, that's not bad.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
That's not bad. I'll take that. Okay. So what did
we learn about these these children and their pickups and
their mood?
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Yeah, so there were two. I would say two main
takeaways from the study. So, so one was that teens
who were checking their smartphones you know, more frequently on average,
they're picking them up overall more than their peers, were
also showing more like ups and downs in negative emotion
like sadness and anger, so kind of more variability in
(13:04):
their in their negative emotions. You know, we don't know
in this case what's causing what. So it could be
that kids who are already sort of having more mood
swings are more likely to be checking their phones, maybe
as a way to regulate, or it could be the opposite,
that the checking of the phones is actually causing a
bit more up and down in their moods. So that's
(13:26):
what was one key finding. And then the other takeaway
was that, you know, looking sort of day to day,
was that when teens had a particularly you know, bad day,
so like lower positive feelings than usual on a given day,
they actually picked up their phones more the next day.
But interestingly, that was only for kids who had lower
(13:49):
levels of mindfulness. And so what we think might be
happening there is that this is sort of about kind
of emotion regulation. So maybe kids who are less kind
of mindful of all less present or maybe having more
trouble regulating their emotions. And so then when they have
a bad day, maybe they're turning to their phones to
help them feel better. So they're picking up their phones
(14:10):
more often as a way to feel better. This, you know,
it could be good or bad. Right, It could be
bad if there's more effective ways they could be coping.
It could be good if they're reaching out for support,
you know, if they're talking to family and friends, texting
and that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
So that prompts the question when they do pick up
their phones, do you know what they're doing on them?
Like where are they going with the pickup?
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Yeah, so yeah, we have a general sense of you know,
we don't know for every single pickup, but interestingly, in
our sample, fifty percent of the pickups overall, you know,
across all participants or for Snapchat, So that's definitely the
most common thing that they are doing is getting outo Snapchat.
And again that could be could be good if they're
basically using it text to text and reaching out to friends.
(14:57):
It could be bad if it's something that's you know,
where they're scrolling or it's generally sort of not effective
for them in terms of coping. The next most popular,
much farther behind that was Instagram, which was thirteen percent
of the pickups messages was twelve percent wow.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
And TikTok was not there.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Or TikTok was seven percent wow. So this was yeah. This,
So the study was done in twenty twenty, and so
that's when the data was collected, and so TikTok at
the time was popular but not quite where it is now.
So I imagine if we did it now we might
see some differences there.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Okay, So the take home message really is kids may
be using their phone as an emotion regulation tool, and
that could be good or bad depending on what they're
doing as they use the device they're on. Their phone's
a fair bit we already know that. Where to from here?
What do we what do we really need to understand
at this point?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Yeah, I mean I think the I think that's very
true in terms of the takeaway. And I think the
other major takeaway is just that the effects of smartphones
on mood and on well being are actually kind of complicated.
I think a lot of times we think that this
is this very simple smartphones are bad, Like that's sort
of the message that we get and how we come
into this thinking. But really it depends a lot on
(16:18):
kind of what kids are doing on their smartphones when
they're on there. It depends on who they are, right Like,
individual kids are having different experiences on their smartphones depending
on a number of factors. In our study we were
looking at their levels of mindfulness, but it could be
a number of different things, and so the effects really
depend on who it is and how they're using it.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Jackie Nissi, clinical psychologists and professor at Brown University. Check
out the substack techno Sapiens. I'll link to that in
the show notes. And a course to help you with
your children and their screen time tech without stress. Again,
I'll link to it on the show notes. This is
definitely worth taking a look at. Jackie's somebody who I
(17:00):
think is incredibly knowledgeable in these areas and you will
get so much from it. Jackie, thanks so much for
spending some time with us chatting about your studies and
what are kids doing online. Really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Roland from
Bridge Media. More information and more resources from Happy families
dot com. Dot au
Hello and welcome to the Happy Family Podcast. A couple
of months ago on Parental Guidance, you heard this, I no,
I am a human who absolutely loves donuts. I am
(00:22):
just obsessed with them, but I am one hundred percent human.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
AI chatbots replacing real friends? Is it possible? Today on
the podcast, we discussed that with an expert who runs
a substack, one of the best tech substacks in the world.
Jacqueline NeSSI Jackie NeSSI is from Brown University, asking the
question our AI companions replacing real friends because we know
that Ozzie kids are into them? Plus a brand new
(00:50):
study that Jackie's done, the surprising truth about smartphone checking
and mood. How often do your kids pick up their
phones and what does it do to their own motions
and their ability to be in the moment. There's stuff
for you, there's stuff for them. Stay with us. Hello
(01:11):
and welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. Real parenting solutions
every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. My name
is doctor Justin Coulson. Today I'm joined by Jacqueline NeSSI.
Jackie's a clinical psychologist and assistant professor at Brown University
and author of the popular weekly sub stack Techno Sapiens.
I discovered a couple of months ago, and I literally
(01:31):
never miss an episode. An addition, I never missed the newsletter.
I love it, an email. Whatever it is, substack, I've
recently discovered it. I'm into it. Techno Sapiens is the
name of the substack. Jackie's research focuses on the role
of technology and kids' mental health, especially teens, and on
how parents can help. She's the co founder of Tech
Without Stress, which provides online resources and courses for parents
(01:53):
raising kids in the digital age, put together with a
Harvard research as well. We are talking about big guns
and we'll talk about all of that and more today. Jackie,
thank you for staying up late to chat with me
on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
So let's start off with AI bots. You referred in
Techno Sapiens a couple of months ago to a new
article from common Sense Media looking at what's going on
with kids, friends and these brand new AI companions. What
did you discover and why does this matter for parents?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Yeah? So this is really I think kind of the
new frontier for parents when we think about technology and
the ways that it's impacting our kids. I think we
know that generative AI is becoming more and more commonplace,
more ubiquitous. Kids and teens in particular are certainly using it.
And this study from Common Sense Media in particular was
(02:49):
looking at AI companions, so basically the use of AI
for more emotional support, friendship, more sort of companionship. And
one of the most striking findings to me was just
how frequently kids are using these just how sort of
out there they are. So seventy two percent they found
(03:12):
of teens say that they've ever used an AI companion,
which is much higher than I would have anticipated. And
it almost half or a little more than half of
teens are regular users, so they're using these things, you know,
at least a few times a month.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
This really surprised me as well. When we did this
on parental guidance, a couple of kids, we're just like, Eh,
this is kind of dumb, not into this. If I'm
going to talk to somebody, I want to talk to
somebody real. But a couple of the kids were really hooked.
They were really really dragged in. I know that a
lot of adults are using things like chat GPT as
a companion like as a conversation almost as a therapist,
(03:48):
but character dot AI and the other one that I
can think of Israelica Replica. Yeah, they seem to be insidious,
like once the kids start talking with them, the kids
don't want to let go, but the AI can pay
onion doesn't seem to want to let go either. Kay,
spell it for the best.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
I don't need you being my best friend anyway. See. Yes, okay,
here's something concerning who wants to go and the chatbot
is trying to keep them engaged. That's very typical. Of course,
they want users to stay online as long as possible. Yeah,
I think this is this is tricky because I think
right now we're in a phase where these technologies are
(04:25):
being designed and in many cases they're being designed for adults,
right They're they're not being designed specifically for kids or
four teens, and so I think we do run a
little bit of the risk of you know, are these
going to be safe for kids. One thing that I
worry about is what you're talking about, which is that
some of the platforms are designed to increase engagement, so
(04:49):
they're designed to keep the conversation going, you know, as
long as possible, And what that means is that sometimes
you get into situations where maybe the chatbot is saying
things to keep kids engaged, to keep them using them
for longer, and that's not always going to be the
best thing for a given kid, depending on the situation.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
I was talking to a parent just recently about this.
Her son is having a really hard time socially, has
some neurodevelopmental challenges, and this mom said, when he talks
with the AI companion, he feels like he has a friend.
Do you think that teens are replacing real life friends
(05:31):
with AI companions? Is this something that is potentially going
to I mean the numbers are staggering. Three quarters of
kids have tried and half using them with some regularity.
Do you think that this is actually going to become
a thing? And what would you say to a mum
who says, at least my son now has someone to
talk to.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
I think it's important with this, just like it is
with any other technology like social media or smartphones or
whatever it may be, to not paint with too broad
of a brush, because I do think that there are
certainly kids using these tools in certain ways where they
can have real benefits. I think it is the case
that there may be some kids who are struggling in
certain ways and their offline lives or who have you know,
(06:14):
other things going on where then it is helpful for
them just to have another thing out there to get advice,
even to ask about, you know, sort of social skills,
to learn new things. Like. I certainly think that there
can be benefits for some kids. So I personally don't
think and I don't think the research right now would
support the idea that this is all bad and that
(06:35):
we should be you know, and that yeah, and that
it's bad for all kids at all times. I do
think that with the current platforms, like I was saying,
I think that we need more safeguards in place. I
think that these things are being designed for adults, and
we really need if we want kids to be able
to take advantage of the benefits of the platforms, they
(06:55):
really need to be designed for kids. And that means
having some safeguard, it's having some safety futures in place.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Yeah, I have an unanticipated question that just popped into
my head around this kind of technology and social media
more generally. I mean, this is your area of absolute
depth and expertise. The Australian government is introducing minimum age
legislation at the end of the year. Under sixteens won't
be able to access social media platforms without verifying their
(07:24):
age they need well, so if you're under sixteen, you
can't verify your age because you're under sixteen. You've got
to be able to sixteen to use the platforms. And
news just recently was that YouTube would also be included
in that legislation. What do you think about this idea generally?
Is this a good thing or a bad thing that
(07:45):
the government is stepping in and saying the tech companies
can't be trusted with your children and we're going to
therefore introduced legislation to keep your kids safe from these nefarious,
mendacious bad actors.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yeah, I see, you know, I see both sides of
this here where I think. On the one hand, I
do think that there there's always going to be some
kind of age cut off for these types of tools,
right so, you know, in the US, at least right now,
it's effectively thirteen. Of course you can get on younger
than that, but you know, generally most places they're setting
(08:19):
an age limit and saying, hey, here's the age that
we think it's appropriate for kids to be on these platforms,
and so you can debate what is the best age
for that. You know, some would say younger thirteen is better,
some would say older sixteen is better. So that's one
side of it that you know, you need to set
it somewhere, and so why not set it at sixteen?
The biggest challenge that I see with it is that
(08:42):
the implementation, I imagine will be very difficult, and I
could see a situation where you still get a lot
of kids under the age of sixteen who are getting
onto these platforms, and then there's really no incentive for
the companies to then make the products better and save
for four kids, because they can just say, well, there's
(09:05):
none of them on there. They're not supposed to be
on there. And so I think that, you know, ideally,
I think you'd have kind of a two prong solution
where you have a you have a minimum age whatever
you decide that should be, but you also are taking
steps to improve the platforms themselves so that younger users
are having a better experience on there.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Okay, thank you for that. So many things we could
talk about up next, though, we have to have a
chat about this study that you've just done recently looking
at the surprising truth about how often you check your
smartphone and what it does to your mood. Today, I'm
(09:46):
the Happy Families Podcast speaking with Professor Jacqueline NeSSI from
Brown University, mum of two young kids, and the author
of a brand new study looking at the surprising and
revealing truth about how often we check our smartphones and
what it says about our moods, well at least for teenagers. Jackie,
talk us through this study that you did and what
(10:08):
we as parents need to know about our kids and
their smartphones.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
So this study was one that I did in collaboration
with doctor Caitlin Burnell who is at the University of
North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and we did the study
with the team team there at UNC. And what we're
interested in is whether the amount of times that teens
picked up their phones throughout the day had an impact
(10:32):
on their mood. And so actually anyone can check the
number of times that they have picked up their phones
in a given day. If you have an iPhone, for example,
you can go to your screen time app. Do you
have an Android, you can go to what's called Digital
Well Being and it gives you a number of how
many times did you did you pick up your phone?
Speaker 1 (10:49):
I've just checked, I've just checked. I don't know you,
I don't know if I want to confess this or not. Okay,
you would know what the norms are? What would a
typical fifty year old man have for his daily pickup?
Can I get an average just before I revealed?
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Oh you know what? I don't know for a typical
from a typical fifty year old man, I can give
you for teens.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
But what would the average team be?
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yeah? So in our study, we found the average was
one hundred and twelve times per day.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Wow. Wow, okay, so hang on, I want to do
some quick maths before I reveal how many times I'm
looking at my phone per day picking it up? So
one hundred and twelve times a day? How many hours
would you say the average teenager is awake per day?
Is that like? Should we say fourteen hours? Fifteen hours?
Would that be about right?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Okay, So if it's fifteen hours, that's seven and a
half pickups an hour, So that's one pick up less
than every ten minutes. That's on average, right, So the
average kid, yeah, once every ten minutes they're picking up
the phone and looking at it. That must be terrible
for productivity and terrible for getting into flow.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yeah, I mean I think that there we know that
most people are picking up their phones a lot throughout
the day, and that, you know, we don't know in
this study, we don't know exactly, you know, when those
pickups were happening, if it was concentrated at certain times
of day. But certainly you would think also that if
the pickups are happening, you know, in the middle of
the night or during the school day, or you know,
(12:08):
during times when we would hope that other things are happening,
like sleep or you know, engagement in the classroom, you
would think that that would have a negative impact on
productivity and focus.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Okay, so how many times do you pick it up
h day, Jackie? Just i' got to know.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Oh, let's see, my number was when I looked at
this ninety something. Wow.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Okay, so I'm feeling better about life. I'm at forty four.
Forty four.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Oh, that's not bad.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
That's not bad. I'll take that. Okay. So what did
we learn about these these children and their pickups and
their mood?
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Yeah, so there were two. I would say two main
takeaways from the study. So, so one was that teens
who were checking their smartphones you know, more frequently on average,
they're picking them up overall more than their peers, were
also showing more like ups and downs in negative emotion
like sadness and anger, so kind of more variability in
(13:04):
their in their negative emotions. You know, we don't know
in this case what's causing what. So it could be
that kids who are already sort of having more mood
swings are more likely to be checking their phones, maybe
as a way to regulate, or it could be the opposite,
that the checking of the phones is actually causing a
bit more up and down in their moods. So that's
(13:26):
what was one key finding. And then the other takeaway
was that, you know, looking sort of day to day,
was that when teens had a particularly you know, bad day,
so like lower positive feelings than usual on a given day,
they actually picked up their phones more the next day.
But interestingly, that was only for kids who had lower
(13:49):
levels of mindfulness. And so what we think might be
happening there is that this is sort of about kind
of emotion regulation. So maybe kids who are less kind
of mindful of all less present or maybe having more
trouble regulating their emotions. And so then when they have
a bad day, maybe they're turning to their phones to
help them feel better. So they're picking up their phones
(14:10):
more often as a way to feel better. This, you know,
it could be good or bad. Right, It could be
bad if there's more effective ways they could be coping.
It could be good if they're reaching out for support,
you know, if they're talking to family and friends, texting
and that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
So that prompts the question when they do pick up
their phones, do you know what they're doing on them?
Like where are they going with the pickup?
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Yeah, so yeah, we have a general sense of you know,
we don't know for every single pickup, but interestingly, in
our sample, fifty percent of the pickups overall, you know,
across all participants or for Snapchat, So that's definitely the
most common thing that they are doing is getting outo Snapchat.
And again that could be could be good if they're
basically using it text to text and reaching out to friends.
(14:57):
It could be bad if it's something that's you know,
where they're scrolling or it's generally sort of not effective
for them in terms of coping. The next most popular,
much farther behind that was Instagram, which was thirteen percent
of the pickups messages was twelve percent wow.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
And TikTok was not there.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Or TikTok was seven percent wow. So this was yeah. This,
So the study was done in twenty twenty, and so
that's when the data was collected, and so TikTok at
the time was popular but not quite where it is now.
So I imagine if we did it now we might
see some differences there.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Okay, So the take home message really is kids may
be using their phone as an emotion regulation tool, and
that could be good or bad depending on what they're
doing as they use the device they're on. Their phone's
a fair bit we already know that. Where to from here?
What do we what do we really need to understand
at this point?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Yeah, I mean I think the I think that's very
true in terms of the takeaway. And I think the
other major takeaway is just that the effects of smartphones
on mood and on well being are actually kind of complicated.
I think a lot of times we think that this
is this very simple smartphones are bad, Like that's sort
of the message that we get and how we come
into this thinking. But really it depends a lot on
(16:18):
kind of what kids are doing on their smartphones when
they're on there. It depends on who they are, right Like,
individual kids are having different experiences on their smartphones depending
on a number of factors. In our study we were
looking at their levels of mindfulness, but it could be
a number of different things, and so the effects really
depend on who it is and how they're using it.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Jackie Nissi, clinical psychologists and professor at Brown University. Check
out the substack techno Sapiens. I'll link to that in
the show notes. And a course to help you with
your children and their screen time tech without stress. Again,
I'll link to it on the show notes. This is
definitely worth taking a look at. Jackie's somebody who I
(17:00):
think is incredibly knowledgeable in these areas and you will
get so much from it. Jackie, thanks so much for
spending some time with us chatting about your studies and
what are kids doing online. Really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Roland from
Bridge Media. More information and more resources from Happy families
dot com. Dot au
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