October 28, 2025 • 22 mins
What happens when our kids spend nine hours a day on screens? Dr Justin Coulson sits down with world-leading researcher Professor Jean Twenge (author of Ten Rules for Raising Kids in a High Tech World) to unpack the hidden costs of our always-online culture — and how parents can reclaim calm, connection and control. From brain changes to “go touch grass” moments, Jean shares the science behind tech overload and practical rules that actually work.
KEY POINTS:
- Why social media under 16 is a terrible idea — and why government regulation matters
- The shocking truth about teens’ 9-hour daily screen time
- How smartphones reshape childhood: less sleep, less play, less joy
- The “basic phone” revolution — why dumb phones might just save your child’s brain
- How to set firm rules (without becoming the enemy)
- Real-world freedom: why outdoor play is safer than scrolling
- The single biggest rule every parent should enforce tonight
QUOTE OF THE EPISODE:
“In ten years we’ll look back at giving kids smartphones at age eleven and think — what were we thinking?” — Professor Jean Twenge
RESOURCES MENTIONED:
- Ten Rules for Raising Kids in a High Tech World — Professor Jean Twenge
- Heads Up Alliance (Australia)
- Beginner Phones for Tweens & Teens [Free PDF from Rebecca Sparrow]
- Wait Until 8th Movement
- The Light Phone
- Unplugged Parenthood
ACTION STEPS FOR PARENTS:
- No phones in bedrooms. Ever.
- Delay social media until at least 16 — ideally later.
- Swap smartphones for basic phones to keep kids connected, not consumed.
- Model healthy tech habits — your kids are watching.
- Encourage real-world independence — let them walk, play, and explore offline.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Professor Gen Twangy is at San Diego State University of
the author of more than one hundred and ninety scientific
publications and several books based on her research, including the
brand new Ten Rules for Raising Kids in a High
Tech World. She's also written Generations Igen and Generation Me,
and her research has been everywhere from Time Magazine to
The Atlantic, News Week, The New York Times, USA Today,
(00:27):
the Washington Post. I could keep on going. Gene Professor
Twangy and her heart. We live in San Diego with
their three daughters, and today we go to step into
a conversation about her new book that I think every
parent needs to have a copy of. Ten Rules for
Raising Kids in a High Tech World. Ten Rules for
(00:47):
Raising Kids in a High Tech World. How parents can
stop smartphone, social media and gaming from taking over their
children's lives. I can't wait for this conversation. Stay with us,
it's coming up next. Hello and welcome to The Happy
Family's podcast, Real Parenting Solutions Every day on Australia's most
downloaded parenting podcast. My name's doctor Justin Coilson, and today
(01:09):
an interview that I have been looking forward to for
I was going to say months, but I've only known
about the book for a handful of weeks. Brand new
book that's just been released from one of my favorite academics,
Professor Gen Twangy. The books called Ten Rules for Raising
Kids in a High Tech World. One of my other
favorite books, in fact, I'm holding into my hand right
now is Generations The Real Differences between gen Z Millennials,
(01:30):
jen X Boomers and Silence What they mean for our future.
Gene wrote that one as well. There's also Igen and
a whole lot more, and Professor Twangy joined me on
the podcast right now to talk about the new one.
Thanks so much for being here.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Gene, Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
I want to start with a straight to it a
question about Australia's upcoming minimum age for social media legislation.
There is a lot of noise in the Australian media
about this at the moment. As you would be aware,
we've past world for legislation setting a minimum age or
a minimum limit for access to social media. Given your
(02:07):
research on the effect of tech and specifically social media
on kids, what's your assessment of government intervention versus parental
responsibility here, Like is this a good thing or is
it really what many people are saying, it's just up
to parents to parent. What's your take on that.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
I am so excited about this law. I have always
wanted to move to Australia. Now I really do. That
is my summary. So parents are in such a tough position.
Social media and most of the world is so underregulated,
if not completely unregulated. It's really hard for parents who
don't want their kids on social media to keep them
(02:47):
off the platforms. I do think there are some things
that can be done, which is why you know, I
wrote the ten Rules book. But parents are struggling, and
understandably so, because parental permission isn't required, age isn't usually verified.
The minimum age that's usually set of thirteen is way
too low. What parent or educator or developmental expert would
ever say thirteen puberty that's the best time to introduce
(03:09):
social media. It's just unimaginable. And if it's regulated, and
if fifteen and unders are not on the platform, then
parents don't have to listen to their twelve year old
sep But mom, everybody else is on Instagram, everybody else
is on TikTok, because then that argument won't be there.
It can be you need to wear your seat belt
(03:30):
because it's the law. No, you can't drink because you're
not old enough yet, it's the law. I really wish
I had that excuse. As a parent of three teenagers,
I can tell you.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
That, yeah, yeah, some of my greatest regrets. I mean,
I flip flipped on this. Over the years, I've been
a big fan of a love of the work that
Andy Shibolski has done out of the UK at Oxford.
I've also watched what you've been doing in John Hayden,
watching the ongoing debate over the last fifteen years. I've
been on one side of the fence, and then the other,
and then the other. I mean, I've got splinters on
my backside from climbing over the face so many times.
(04:01):
And yet in the last four or five years, I've
really solidified on this very clear sense that this is
not good for our kids. It's not even good for us.
The Internet. While it brings an enormous amount of benefits,
the Internet fundamentally is not good for us in so
many ways. I'd be curious to know, even at sixteen,
do you think that kids are ready at sixteen to
(04:23):
be a given carte blanche full access to everything that
the social media environment throws at them.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
No, So my rule about social media in the book
is no social media until sixteen or later. I think
you can make a solid argument for eighteen. Sixteen's a
nice compromise. I understand why the laws settled there. I
think even at that age they need limits. So, Okay,
you're sixteen, a lot of your friends are on Instagram,
(04:52):
but let's give you an hour a day and that's it,
so it doesn't become what it is now. In the US,
average team spends almost five hours a day using social media.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
So we've got Australian data showing that Australian teens are
spending nine hours per day in recreational screen time, which
is primarily TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, social media and some gaming.
OECD data as well as one of my friends in
New Southwest Macquarie unied, the Unplugged psychologist Brad Marshall. Doctor
(05:25):
Marshall and his research colleagues have found nine hours per
day of recreational screen use. I mean these numbers are
just astonishing. Walk us through what it does to a
child's brain. I mean, everyone's talking about brain rod at
the moment, that's the word of the year for me.
But what's actually going on inside their heads when they're
getting nine hours of TikTok a day?
Speaker 2 (05:46):
So Brain wrote chronically Online. What I love is that
gen Z themselves has advice for the chronically Online. They say,
go touch grass.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Yeah, you touch grass exactly, just.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Lovely, and that's one of the things that kids not doing.
So when screen time, recreational screen time, becomes that high,
there's the worries of what they're doing on the platforms
and all of the pressures of social media and the
toxic content and so on. But then there's also the
worry of what are they not doing. They're probably not
sleeping enough, they're not hanging out with their mates in person.
(06:19):
They're probably not exercising and getting outside, they're not reading
all of these things that are more beneficial for mental
health than nine hours a day on recreational screen time.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Prophisit Twangi in the book Ten Rules for Raising Kids
in a High Tech World, you begin with an Australian story.
We share that with us.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Yeah, So, Bannie Alacchi and his wife Claudia I have
five children, and when their oldest daughter was ten, they
gave her a smartphone because she said, Mom and dad,
all of my friends have smartphones, and if you don't
give me one, I'll be left out, an argument many
parents have heard. And as he has, she danced less,
(07:01):
she didn't play with your youngest siblings as much, she
wasn't around, you know, to help around the house. He said,
it transformed her entire childhood, And so that story opens
the book because I thought his words and his story
were so powerful to capture what happens in so many
families when kids get a smartphone. So they took that
(07:23):
smartphone back. They founded a group called the Heads Up Alliance,
where parents come together at schools to say, we're going
to agree that our kids are not going to get
smartphones until they're older. There's a group in the US
that does this too, called Wait until Eighth So it's
the end of eighth grade. Even that founder says, look,
I'm not suggesting you just give him a smartphone carte blanche.
(07:44):
At that point. Work them up to it. And that's
something that's worked really well in my family as well.
That my kids wanted to text their friends, they wanted
their own phones, but I was not going to give
them a smartphone where they could be on social media
or AI companion naps, you know, or have the Internet
in their pocket all the time. So they have basic
phones that are designed for kids, so that don't have
(08:06):
any of those things, but they could still tax their friends.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
I'm feeling inspired. So first off, Daniel Archie and the
heads up lines to friends of our podcast, and we
love the work that they're doing. I'm feeling inspired. My
fifteen year old, oh my goodness, she's only got a
what six months until she will get access to social
media based on this minimum age legislation. But one of
my great regrets, as I started to say before, was
giving our kids access to smartphones earlier than we should
(08:30):
have because I was flip flopping throughout all those years
and listening to you as we have this conversation, I
kind of just want to go into her bedroom and say, actually,
you need to give you that phone now we're done,
Which brings me to your first rule. Rule Number one
in the book is you're in charge. Parents need to
actually use their parental authority and be okay with saying
no to their kids. A lot of parents when they
(08:51):
hear that, though, they kind of think, well, hang on,
I'm going to become the enemy. We are going to
have a blow up. This is going to create a
lot of contention, a lot of disharmony in our home,
especially if you've already squeeze the toothpaste out of the tube,
like it's really hard to get it back in. And
I think about my interactions with my fifteen year old,
I'm kind of, even as the parenting expert who's written
the ten books and does the podcast, I'm thinking I've
(09:14):
just done of if I've got the energy for this
five I think it's easier to just say, you know what,
we've made the mess, and it just now is what
it is. What's your response to that? For parents who
are sort of going.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Ugh, So I'll take the toothpaste out of the two
genie out of the bottle thing first. Yeah, So you
can you can come to a halfway position with this.
You can say to your fifteen and a half year old, Okay,
I'm not going to take your smartphone away, but I
need it for an hour so I can make sure
that you're not spending too much time on social media.
(09:49):
I'm going to block app downloads, so if you want
a certain app, then it's a conversation between us, rather
than it being something unilateral. I want you to be safe,
I want you to be healthy, and we can do
this or no smartphone at all. Smart kid is going
to choose. Let's take that compromise position. So there are
(10:09):
things that can be done. You can And also that's
the point of you're in charge. You can put the
genie back in the bottle. If things are not going well,
and you don't have to be mean about it, and
you don't have to beat draconian. You can come to
some sort of solution that works for everybody. It is,
of course even better if you can start from the
beginning with those rules in place. And I have found
(10:33):
in my family that having set rules actually makes your
relationship with your kids easier. So one of my rules
is you get your first internet enabled phone, your first
actual smartphone when you get your driver's license. So here
in California, you can get your driver's license at sixteen,
but you know you have to get your permit and
do the driving practice and take your test. So my
(10:56):
middle one turned sixteen at the beginning of the month,
and she said to me a couple months ago, can
I have the smartphone when I turned sixteen, not just
want to get the driver's license. I said, nope, the
rules the driver's license, because that puts it off for longer,
and it also ties it to independence and then encourages
that driver's license, which with some kids is not going
to be an issue. My oldest was like, right in line,
(11:18):
I don't know if I'm gonnaone to be taking those
driving lessons if it wasn't for this incentive. So it
helped with that too, and that was it. We had
that one pushback and I said, nope, it has to
be with the driver's license, and that was it, and
she didn't bring it up again. She's really excited to
get that driver's lences in and that smartphone. It hasn't
changed her enthusiasm, but it cut off the arguments because
it was such a clear rule.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
So we've got three rules that have kind of come
out in that answer. Number one, you're in charge as
a parent. Rule number four in the book, I think
it's rule number four your first phone should be a
basic phone. Give kids just basic phones without social media,
without internet browsers, without AI apps and that sort of thing.
And I think it was rule number five. First smartphone
with the driver's license, and that makes sense because you
(11:59):
want to have access to things like navigation. Although I've
been playing around with a new phone that I purchased recently.
It took about nine months to arrive because of manufacturing
issues and Trump tariffs and moving things from China to
India so that it could be made. But the light phone.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Is this is the phone is amazing.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, so I've been I've been using it a little bit.
The amount of travel that I do and the amount
of tech that I use on a daily basis, it's
been a challenging phone for me to use. But I
have a daughter who's been overseas for eighteen months. She's
just recently come home. She needed a phone, and I said,
why don't you give this ago? So she's in her
early twenties and she just keeps on saying to me,
(12:38):
I love this phone because it's got navigation. You can
still take photos, but it doesn't have all the social media.
It doesn't have Internet browsing. And I'm watching this kid
blossom because there's nothing to do on the phone except
use it as a phone. It's a tool and that's it.
As expensive, there's some challenges with it that we're still
working our way through awhelmingly the upside versus the downside.
(13:02):
Oh my goodness, what a great idea.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
And seeing that with even a young adult in her
early twenties versus a twelve year old. I mean, I
think what that says to me is the benefits would
potentially be even bigger if that was the choice she
made for a younger kid, and then they grew up
with that type of phone, and then by the time
they have a smart phone, you know, maybe they say, hey,
(13:26):
I don't even need this.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
We're so grateful for that experience that she's having and
trying to work out how we can bring that downstream
to the other kids. Again, one of those things that
we're going to have to negotiate over time. Let me
ask you a couple of other questions about the book
(13:48):
and your take on some things. So one of the
other rules that you have, I think it's towards the end,
maybe rule number eight is give your kids real world freedom.
This ties in with something that Lenaskanasi, who has been
on our podcast a number of times, talks about all
the time, a founder of the Let Grow movement and
the author of The New York Times best selling Free
Range Kids. You talk about how parents and grandparents grew
(14:12):
up with tremendous independence but now don't want to give
their own children that same freedom. And what I'd love
to know is why what's driving the disconnect? And how
does a phone based childhood actually make kids less safe
than the real world freedom we're afraid to give them, Like,
why are we happier to have them in the living
room or in their bedroom staring at the screen rather
(14:33):
than letting them go to the park or the beach
or whatever down the road with their friends.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Well, media has given us the idea that it's unsafe
for kids to walk to school, which it's not in
the vast majority of places, and to protect kids when
they're scared of something. And because I got this at
a talk the other day, Oh but if I let
my six year old go into the next aisle in
the grocery store to grab something for me, that they
(14:58):
might get kidnapped. Right, Nope, No, that's just not going
to happen. So I think that's the disconnect is we've
come to see the real world is really really dangerous
in an exaggerated way. But then because most parents did
not grow up with social media and smartphones, we are
(15:24):
overlooking the dangers of those platforms. Even if we use
social media in now our feet is not going to
look like our kids. We may not even you know,
fully process the effect of some of these things on
children and teens. So we've really underprotected kids in the
online world, overprotected them in the real world. We need
to bring things back into balance, so that real world
(15:45):
freedom part is part of that. So getting places on
your own, handing a ten year old to credit card
or some cash to go in the grocery store and
buy a few things. Even if you just want to
start at home, having your kids do their own laundry,
having them cook for the family every once in a while,
then bonus, you don't have to do their laundry or
(16:07):
cook that night. Everybody wins.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
I love it. Have you got time for a lightning round?
Speaker 2 (16:13):
I will try.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Okay, let's see how we go thinking on your feet.
You can pass if you need to, And I'd just
love to get your take on some of these unfair
and fun questions. We're social media platform for adolescent mental health.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Oh that's a tough one. Either TikTok or.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Instagram one app that you wish had never been invented.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Oh, definitely, TikTok?
Speaker 1 (16:37):
Can you say more on that? I know this is
a lightning round, but I would love for parents to
understand why that's such a I mean, that was a
definite there's no hesitation there, and I feel the same way.
Why do you say that.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
There's a bunch of reasons. I'll be brief. It has
stickiest algorithm. Yeap, So people including adults, intend to spend
only a little time on it end up spending a
lot of time. If you look at negative content, it'll
show you more. That happens a lot to adolescence in particular.
And it's not an app that teens used to contact
(17:09):
their friends.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
It's just short form TV.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yeah it is, And so you know there's memes and
there's popular videos and so on that the kids talk about,
but they're not directly communicating with their friends on that app.
So for me as a parent, that's a really easy no.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Okay, back to the Lightning Round. Thank you for that
quick collaboration. If you could only enforce one of your
ten rules universally, which one would you choose.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
I'm looking at my list of rules. It would probably
be no. Electronic devices in the bedroom overnight, because that's
for adults as well, because you can preserve sleep. That
just helps with with everything else. Although no social media
until sixteen is a close second. So way to go
to Australia.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Okay, nice, Do your own teenages follow all of your
ten rules.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
They do, although there are some where we make exceptions
from time to time. One about the phones on vacation
being one place where sometimes you know, on the plane
or in the car, like fine, you know for half
of this you can be on your phone, but most
of the rest of them, Yeah, we followed. We followed
them pretty well.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Now they have occasionally tried to get around them, and
I describe those stories right exactly. I mean, that's what
you got to keep in mind, is you know, I
think it's so easy to go, oh my god, this
is impossible because your kids found a way around it.
That's okay. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of
the good. They may find their way around some things,
but you you hold firm on everything that you can.
(18:37):
You're still doing well.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Okay, just a few more. You've already answered this one,
but for emphasis, because we really did gloss over and
I asked the most important one, but I had the
question phones in bedrooms at night? Yes or no? Can
you just for emphasis answer that one again? Because it
really matters.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
It does. I mean, the research is so clear on
phones in the bedroom overnight. I mean out of ten
US teens use their phone between midnight and five am,
when common sense media attract their phones on school nights,
on real not even weekend nights, on school nights. So
this is a really really big problem. Sleep is just
(19:14):
so it's so important for physical health, the mental health
technology can interfere with it even if the phone's off,
even if it's on. Do not disturb the presence of
that phone. Your brain knows it's there, and you don't
sleep as deeply.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Do you sleep with the phone in your bedroom?
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Eck?
Speaker 1 (19:27):
No?
Speaker 2 (19:28):
And I almost said another word, No, I do not.
I have it out of the bedroom behind a closed door.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Okay, AI companions for kids over blind panic or legitimate concern.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Oh, definitely legitimate concern. I mean, do you want your
twelve year old's first romantic relationship to be with an
AI girlfriend? I'll just leave it at that, you know what.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
I know this is a lightning around but I have
to quickly share an anecdote. I've got a TV show
here in Australia called Parental Guidance, Prime time top writing
parenting TV show, and we got kids to have some
AI companion chats with a well known and popular AI bot,
and the manipulative tactics and the exploitative tactics that the
(20:07):
bot used to keep kids chatting were simply astonishing. Like
the lack of ethics around this is phenomenal. So I
figured that you would say that, but I love hearing
it from other authority. Figures three more grip chats communication
tool or social anxiety generator.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
So you mean like on WhatsApp or a text.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
No, I mean like group chats has in like on
Instagram or I guess on WhatsApp as well, yeah, or
in Messenger, so you know the big the whole class
is involved in it, and we've got the we've got
the thing coming up on Friday night. And is it
a good communication tool or does it generate social anxiety?
Speaker 2 (20:42):
So I think the group chat is better than algorithm
social media, but it depends on what it's used for.
If it is to communicate, here's when the next you know,
sport practice is awesome. But yeah, if it becomes performative,
if it becomes a time seeing, if it becomes thing
where you kids are showing off and trying to get
attention so on, then not so great either.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Okay, if a parent can only do one thing tomorrow
to improve their kids tech relationship, what is it?
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Get the phone out of the bedroom?
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Great? And lastly, complete this sentence. In ten years we'll
be looking back at how we gave kids smartphones at
age eleven and think.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
What the heck are we thinking?
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Yeah? I feel that way already. I feel that way already,
Professor Twangy. I just I love when we get to talk.
Thank you so much for taking time out to chat
with an Australian audience and to share some of your
rules from the book Ten Rules for Raising Kids in
a High Tech World, How parents can stop smartphones, social
media and gaming for taking over their children's lives. As always,
(21:49):
it's a pleasure and really appreciate your time.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Thanks very much.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Professor Geene Twangy from San Diego State University is the
author of Ten Rules for Raising Kids in a High
Tech World. You can get it where wherever you get
your books. The Happy Families Podcast is produced by Justin
Ruland from Bridge Media. Mmhammonds provides research, admin and other support,
and if you'd like more info to make your family happier,
visit us at happy families dot com dot au
Professor Gen Twangy is at San Diego State University of
the author of more than one hundred and ninety scientific
publications and several books based on her research, including the
brand new Ten Rules for Raising Kids in a High
Tech World. She's also written Generations Igen and Generation Me,
and her research has been everywhere from Time Magazine to
The Atlantic, News Week, The New York Times, USA Today,
(00:27):
the Washington Post. I could keep on going. Gene Professor
Twangy and her heart. We live in San Diego with
their three daughters, and today we go to step into
a conversation about her new book that I think every
parent needs to have a copy of. Ten Rules for
Raising Kids in a High Tech World. Ten Rules for
(00:47):
Raising Kids in a High Tech World. How parents can
stop smartphone, social media and gaming from taking over their
children's lives. I can't wait for this conversation. Stay with us,
it's coming up next. Hello and welcome to The Happy
Family's podcast, Real Parenting Solutions Every day on Australia's most
downloaded parenting podcast. My name's doctor Justin Coilson, and today
(01:09):
an interview that I have been looking forward to for
I was going to say months, but I've only known
about the book for a handful of weeks. Brand new
book that's just been released from one of my favorite academics,
Professor Gen Twangy. The books called Ten Rules for Raising
Kids in a High Tech World. One of my other
favorite books, in fact, I'm holding into my hand right
now is Generations The Real Differences between gen Z Millennials,
(01:30):
jen X Boomers and Silence What they mean for our future.
Gene wrote that one as well. There's also Igen and
a whole lot more, and Professor Twangy joined me on
the podcast right now to talk about the new one.
Thanks so much for being here.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Gene, Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
I want to start with a straight to it a
question about Australia's upcoming minimum age for social media legislation.
There is a lot of noise in the Australian media
about this at the moment. As you would be aware,
we've past world for legislation setting a minimum age or
a minimum limit for access to social media. Given your
(02:07):
research on the effect of tech and specifically social media
on kids, what's your assessment of government intervention versus parental
responsibility here, Like is this a good thing or is
it really what many people are saying, it's just up
to parents to parent. What's your take on that.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
I am so excited about this law. I have always
wanted to move to Australia. Now I really do. That
is my summary. So parents are in such a tough position.
Social media and most of the world is so underregulated,
if not completely unregulated. It's really hard for parents who
don't want their kids on social media to keep them
(02:47):
off the platforms. I do think there are some things
that can be done, which is why you know, I
wrote the ten Rules book. But parents are struggling, and
understandably so, because parental permission isn't required, age isn't usually verified.
The minimum age that's usually set of thirteen is way
too low. What parent or educator or developmental expert would
ever say thirteen puberty that's the best time to introduce
(03:09):
social media. It's just unimaginable. And if it's regulated, and
if fifteen and unders are not on the platform, then
parents don't have to listen to their twelve year old
sep But mom, everybody else is on Instagram, everybody else
is on TikTok, because then that argument won't be there.
It can be you need to wear your seat belt
(03:30):
because it's the law. No, you can't drink because you're
not old enough yet, it's the law. I really wish
I had that excuse. As a parent of three teenagers,
I can tell you.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
That, yeah, yeah, some of my greatest regrets. I mean,
I flip flipped on this. Over the years, I've been
a big fan of a love of the work that
Andy Shibolski has done out of the UK at Oxford.
I've also watched what you've been doing in John Hayden,
watching the ongoing debate over the last fifteen years. I've
been on one side of the fence, and then the other,
and then the other. I mean, I've got splinters on
my backside from climbing over the face so many times.
(04:01):
And yet in the last four or five years, I've
really solidified on this very clear sense that this is
not good for our kids. It's not even good for us.
The Internet. While it brings an enormous amount of benefits,
the Internet fundamentally is not good for us in so
many ways. I'd be curious to know, even at sixteen,
do you think that kids are ready at sixteen to
(04:23):
be a given carte blanche full access to everything that
the social media environment throws at them.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
No, So my rule about social media in the book
is no social media until sixteen or later. I think
you can make a solid argument for eighteen. Sixteen's a
nice compromise. I understand why the laws settled there. I
think even at that age they need limits. So, Okay,
you're sixteen, a lot of your friends are on Instagram,
(04:52):
but let's give you an hour a day and that's it,
so it doesn't become what it is now. In the US,
average team spends almost five hours a day using social media.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
So we've got Australian data showing that Australian teens are
spending nine hours per day in recreational screen time, which
is primarily TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, social media and some gaming.
OECD data as well as one of my friends in
New Southwest Macquarie unied, the Unplugged psychologist Brad Marshall. Doctor
(05:25):
Marshall and his research colleagues have found nine hours per
day of recreational screen use. I mean these numbers are
just astonishing. Walk us through what it does to a
child's brain. I mean, everyone's talking about brain rod at
the moment, that's the word of the year for me.
But what's actually going on inside their heads when they're
getting nine hours of TikTok a day?
Speaker 2 (05:46):
So Brain wrote chronically Online. What I love is that
gen Z themselves has advice for the chronically Online. They say,
go touch grass.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Yeah, you touch grass exactly, just.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Lovely, and that's one of the things that kids not doing.
So when screen time, recreational screen time, becomes that high,
there's the worries of what they're doing on the platforms
and all of the pressures of social media and the
toxic content and so on. But then there's also the
worry of what are they not doing. They're probably not
sleeping enough, they're not hanging out with their mates in person.
(06:19):
They're probably not exercising and getting outside, they're not reading
all of these things that are more beneficial for mental
health than nine hours a day on recreational screen time.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Prophisit Twangi in the book Ten Rules for Raising Kids
in a High Tech World, you begin with an Australian story.
We share that with us.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Yeah, So, Bannie Alacchi and his wife Claudia I have
five children, and when their oldest daughter was ten, they
gave her a smartphone because she said, Mom and dad,
all of my friends have smartphones, and if you don't
give me one, I'll be left out, an argument many
parents have heard. And as he has, she danced less,
(07:01):
she didn't play with your youngest siblings as much, she
wasn't around, you know, to help around the house. He said,
it transformed her entire childhood, And so that story opens
the book because I thought his words and his story
were so powerful to capture what happens in so many
families when kids get a smartphone. So they took that
(07:23):
smartphone back. They founded a group called the Heads Up Alliance,
where parents come together at schools to say, we're going
to agree that our kids are not going to get
smartphones until they're older. There's a group in the US
that does this too, called Wait until Eighth So it's
the end of eighth grade. Even that founder says, look,
I'm not suggesting you just give him a smartphone carte blanche.
(07:44):
At that point. Work them up to it. And that's
something that's worked really well in my family as well.
That my kids wanted to text their friends, they wanted
their own phones, but I was not going to give
them a smartphone where they could be on social media
or AI companion naps, you know, or have the Internet
in their pocket all the time. So they have basic
phones that are designed for kids, so that don't have
(08:06):
any of those things, but they could still tax their friends.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
I'm feeling inspired. So first off, Daniel Archie and the
heads up lines to friends of our podcast, and we
love the work that they're doing. I'm feeling inspired. My
fifteen year old, oh my goodness, she's only got a
what six months until she will get access to social
media based on this minimum age legislation. But one of
my great regrets, as I started to say before, was
giving our kids access to smartphones earlier than we should
(08:30):
have because I was flip flopping throughout all those years
and listening to you as we have this conversation, I
kind of just want to go into her bedroom and say, actually,
you need to give you that phone now we're done,
Which brings me to your first rule. Rule Number one
in the book is you're in charge. Parents need to
actually use their parental authority and be okay with saying
no to their kids. A lot of parents when they
(08:51):
hear that, though, they kind of think, well, hang on,
I'm going to become the enemy. We are going to
have a blow up. This is going to create a
lot of contention, a lot of disharmony in our home,
especially if you've already squeeze the toothpaste out of the tube,
like it's really hard to get it back in. And
I think about my interactions with my fifteen year old,
I'm kind of, even as the parenting expert who's written
the ten books and does the podcast, I'm thinking I've
(09:14):
just done of if I've got the energy for this
five I think it's easier to just say, you know what,
we've made the mess, and it just now is what
it is. What's your response to that? For parents who
are sort of going.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Ugh, So I'll take the toothpaste out of the two
genie out of the bottle thing first. Yeah, So you
can you can come to a halfway position with this.
You can say to your fifteen and a half year old, Okay,
I'm not going to take your smartphone away, but I
need it for an hour so I can make sure
that you're not spending too much time on social media.
(09:49):
I'm going to block app downloads, so if you want
a certain app, then it's a conversation between us, rather
than it being something unilateral. I want you to be safe,
I want you to be healthy, and we can do
this or no smartphone at all. Smart kid is going
to choose. Let's take that compromise position. So there are
(10:09):
things that can be done. You can And also that's
the point of you're in charge. You can put the
genie back in the bottle. If things are not going well,
and you don't have to be mean about it, and
you don't have to beat draconian. You can come to
some sort of solution that works for everybody. It is,
of course even better if you can start from the
beginning with those rules in place. And I have found
(10:33):
in my family that having set rules actually makes your
relationship with your kids easier. So one of my rules
is you get your first internet enabled phone, your first
actual smartphone when you get your driver's license. So here
in California, you can get your driver's license at sixteen,
but you know you have to get your permit and
do the driving practice and take your test. So my
(10:56):
middle one turned sixteen at the beginning of the month,
and she said to me a couple months ago, can
I have the smartphone when I turned sixteen, not just
want to get the driver's license. I said, nope, the
rules the driver's license, because that puts it off for longer,
and it also ties it to independence and then encourages
that driver's license, which with some kids is not going
to be an issue. My oldest was like, right in line,
(11:18):
I don't know if I'm gonnaone to be taking those
driving lessons if it wasn't for this incentive. So it
helped with that too, and that was it. We had
that one pushback and I said, nope, it has to
be with the driver's license, and that was it, and
she didn't bring it up again. She's really excited to
get that driver's lences in and that smartphone. It hasn't
changed her enthusiasm, but it cut off the arguments because
it was such a clear rule.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
So we've got three rules that have kind of come
out in that answer. Number one, you're in charge as
a parent. Rule number four in the book, I think
it's rule number four your first phone should be a
basic phone. Give kids just basic phones without social media,
without internet browsers, without AI apps and that sort of thing.
And I think it was rule number five. First smartphone
with the driver's license, and that makes sense because you
(11:59):
want to have access to things like navigation. Although I've
been playing around with a new phone that I purchased recently.
It took about nine months to arrive because of manufacturing
issues and Trump tariffs and moving things from China to
India so that it could be made. But the light phone.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Is this is the phone is amazing.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, so I've been I've been using it a little bit.
The amount of travel that I do and the amount
of tech that I use on a daily basis, it's
been a challenging phone for me to use. But I
have a daughter who's been overseas for eighteen months. She's
just recently come home. She needed a phone, and I said,
why don't you give this ago? So she's in her
early twenties and she just keeps on saying to me,
(12:38):
I love this phone because it's got navigation. You can
still take photos, but it doesn't have all the social media.
It doesn't have Internet browsing. And I'm watching this kid
blossom because there's nothing to do on the phone except
use it as a phone. It's a tool and that's it.
As expensive, there's some challenges with it that we're still
working our way through awhelmingly the upside versus the downside.
(13:02):
Oh my goodness, what a great idea.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
And seeing that with even a young adult in her
early twenties versus a twelve year old. I mean, I
think what that says to me is the benefits would
potentially be even bigger if that was the choice she
made for a younger kid, and then they grew up
with that type of phone, and then by the time
they have a smart phone, you know, maybe they say, hey,
(13:26):
I don't even need this.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
We're so grateful for that experience that she's having and
trying to work out how we can bring that downstream
to the other kids. Again, one of those things that
we're going to have to negotiate over time. Let me
ask you a couple of other questions about the book
(13:48):
and your take on some things. So one of the
other rules that you have, I think it's towards the end,
maybe rule number eight is give your kids real world freedom.
This ties in with something that Lenaskanasi, who has been
on our podcast a number of times, talks about all
the time, a founder of the Let Grow movement and
the author of The New York Times best selling Free
Range Kids. You talk about how parents and grandparents grew
(14:12):
up with tremendous independence but now don't want to give
their own children that same freedom. And what I'd love
to know is why what's driving the disconnect? And how
does a phone based childhood actually make kids less safe
than the real world freedom we're afraid to give them, Like,
why are we happier to have them in the living
room or in their bedroom staring at the screen rather
(14:33):
than letting them go to the park or the beach
or whatever down the road with their friends.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Well, media has given us the idea that it's unsafe
for kids to walk to school, which it's not in
the vast majority of places, and to protect kids when
they're scared of something. And because I got this at
a talk the other day, Oh but if I let
my six year old go into the next aisle in
the grocery store to grab something for me, that they
(14:58):
might get kidnapped. Right, Nope, No, that's just not going
to happen. So I think that's the disconnect is we've
come to see the real world is really really dangerous
in an exaggerated way. But then because most parents did
not grow up with social media and smartphones, we are
(15:24):
overlooking the dangers of those platforms. Even if we use
social media in now our feet is not going to
look like our kids. We may not even you know,
fully process the effect of some of these things on
children and teens. So we've really underprotected kids in the
online world, overprotected them in the real world. We need
to bring things back into balance, so that real world
(15:45):
freedom part is part of that. So getting places on
your own, handing a ten year old to credit card
or some cash to go in the grocery store and
buy a few things. Even if you just want to
start at home, having your kids do their own laundry,
having them cook for the family every once in a while,
then bonus, you don't have to do their laundry or
(16:07):
cook that night. Everybody wins.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
I love it. Have you got time for a lightning round?
Speaker 2 (16:13):
I will try.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Okay, let's see how we go thinking on your feet.
You can pass if you need to, And I'd just
love to get your take on some of these unfair
and fun questions. We're social media platform for adolescent mental health.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Oh that's a tough one. Either TikTok or.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Instagram one app that you wish had never been invented.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Oh, definitely, TikTok?
Speaker 1 (16:37):
Can you say more on that? I know this is
a lightning round, but I would love for parents to
understand why that's such a I mean, that was a
definite there's no hesitation there, and I feel the same way.
Why do you say that.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
There's a bunch of reasons. I'll be brief. It has
stickiest algorithm. Yeap, So people including adults, intend to spend
only a little time on it end up spending a
lot of time. If you look at negative content, it'll
show you more. That happens a lot to adolescence in particular.
And it's not an app that teens used to contact
(17:09):
their friends.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
It's just short form TV.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yeah it is, And so you know there's memes and
there's popular videos and so on that the kids talk about,
but they're not directly communicating with their friends on that app.
So for me as a parent, that's a really easy no.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Okay, back to the Lightning Round. Thank you for that
quick collaboration. If you could only enforce one of your
ten rules universally, which one would you choose.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
I'm looking at my list of rules. It would probably
be no. Electronic devices in the bedroom overnight, because that's
for adults as well, because you can preserve sleep. That
just helps with with everything else. Although no social media
until sixteen is a close second. So way to go
to Australia.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Okay, nice, Do your own teenages follow all of your
ten rules.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
They do, although there are some where we make exceptions
from time to time. One about the phones on vacation
being one place where sometimes you know, on the plane
or in the car, like fine, you know for half
of this you can be on your phone, but most
of the rest of them, Yeah, we followed. We followed
them pretty well.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Now they have occasionally tried to get around them, and
I describe those stories right exactly. I mean, that's what
you got to keep in mind, is you know, I
think it's so easy to go, oh my god, this
is impossible because your kids found a way around it.
That's okay. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of
the good. They may find their way around some things,
but you you hold firm on everything that you can.
(18:37):
You're still doing well.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Okay, just a few more. You've already answered this one,
but for emphasis, because we really did gloss over and
I asked the most important one, but I had the
question phones in bedrooms at night? Yes or no? Can
you just for emphasis answer that one again? Because it
really matters.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
It does. I mean, the research is so clear on
phones in the bedroom overnight. I mean out of ten
US teens use their phone between midnight and five am,
when common sense media attract their phones on school nights,
on real not even weekend nights, on school nights. So
this is a really really big problem. Sleep is just
(19:14):
so it's so important for physical health, the mental health
technology can interfere with it even if the phone's off,
even if it's on. Do not disturb the presence of
that phone. Your brain knows it's there, and you don't
sleep as deeply.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Do you sleep with the phone in your bedroom?
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Eck?
Speaker 1 (19:27):
No?
Speaker 2 (19:28):
And I almost said another word, No, I do not.
I have it out of the bedroom behind a closed door.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Okay, AI companions for kids over blind panic or legitimate concern.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Oh, definitely legitimate concern. I mean, do you want your
twelve year old's first romantic relationship to be with an
AI girlfriend? I'll just leave it at that, you know what.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
I know this is a lightning around but I have
to quickly share an anecdote. I've got a TV show
here in Australia called Parental Guidance, Prime time top writing
parenting TV show, and we got kids to have some
AI companion chats with a well known and popular AI bot,
and the manipulative tactics and the exploitative tactics that the
(20:07):
bot used to keep kids chatting were simply astonishing. Like
the lack of ethics around this is phenomenal. So I
figured that you would say that, but I love hearing
it from other authority. Figures three more grip chats communication
tool or social anxiety generator.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
So you mean like on WhatsApp or a text.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
No, I mean like group chats has in like on
Instagram or I guess on WhatsApp as well, yeah, or
in Messenger, so you know the big the whole class
is involved in it, and we've got the we've got
the thing coming up on Friday night. And is it
a good communication tool or does it generate social anxiety?
Speaker 2 (20:42):
So I think the group chat is better than algorithm
social media, but it depends on what it's used for.
If it is to communicate, here's when the next you know,
sport practice is awesome. But yeah, if it becomes performative,
if it becomes a time seeing, if it becomes thing
where you kids are showing off and trying to get
attention so on, then not so great either.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Okay, if a parent can only do one thing tomorrow
to improve their kids tech relationship, what is it?
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Get the phone out of the bedroom?
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Great? And lastly, complete this sentence. In ten years we'll
be looking back at how we gave kids smartphones at
age eleven and think.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
What the heck are we thinking?
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Yeah? I feel that way already. I feel that way already,
Professor Twangy. I just I love when we get to talk.
Thank you so much for taking time out to chat
with an Australian audience and to share some of your
rules from the book Ten Rules for Raising Kids in
a High Tech World, How parents can stop smartphones, social
media and gaming for taking over their children's lives. As always,
(21:49):
it's a pleasure and really appreciate your time.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Thanks very much.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Professor Geene Twangy from San Diego State University is the
author of Ten Rules for Raising Kids in a High
Tech World. You can get it where wherever you get
your books. The Happy Families Podcast is produced by Justin
Ruland from Bridge Media. Mmhammonds provides research, admin and other support,
and if you'd like more info to make your family happier,
visit us at happy families dot com dot au
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