Few topics divide parents more than gender identity — and the stakes couldn’t be higher. On the last episode of Parental Guidance, the debate ignited strong emotions and hard truths about what it means to protect our kids’ mental health while avoiding irreversible mistakes.
In today’s podcast, Justin and Kylie break down the episode, share insights from research, and offer calm, practical advice for navigating this sensitive topic as a parent.
KEY POINTS:
- Why this issue is so emotionally loaded.
- What we don’t know
- The strong correlation between gender identity struggles and other issues like autism, anxiety, depression, and online influences
- Why ‘affirmation-only’ models are controversial
- The role of screens and peer groups in shaping kids’ beliefs about gender.
- Why delaying medical or surgical interventions while maintaining love and openness can be the wisest path forward
QUOTE OF THE EPISODE:
"You want to keep your kids safe, loved, and supported — but you also want to move slowly, with wisdom and care, because these decisions have lifelong consequences." — Justin Coulson
RESOURCES MENTIONED:
- Time to Think by Hannah Barnes (on the Tavistock Clinic and gender identity diagnoses)
- Articles and more resources at happyfamilies.com.au
ACTION STEPS FOR PARENTS:
- Limit screen time and social media exposure, especially to platforms like TikTok or Tumblr where gender identity narratives can be amplified.
- Check your child’s peer group influences — and watch for “cluster” patterns in friend groups.
- Find a good psychologist or counsellor who will explore underlying emotional, developmental, and psychological factors instead of rushing to affirm.
- Stay compassionate and keep the dialogue open with your child. Let them know you love and support them unconditionally — while explaining that serious medical decisions can wait.
- Delay irreversible interventions (like hormones or surgery) until your child is much older and has had time to mature and reflect.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
On Monday Night's episode of Parental Guidance, the fourth and
final episode in this limited series on Channel nine. Boy,
oh boy, did the conversation heat up. Today We're going
to be talking about what happened and why. There's going
to be a lot of audio. There's going to be
a lot of provocation. I guess I'm so excited for
today's episode of the podcast. Hello, Welcome to the Happy
(00:26):
Families Podcast, realparenting Solutions, every single day on Australia's most
downloaded parenting podcast. We are Justin and Kylie Colson.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
It's interesting to me that gender identity ended up in
our mental health episode, and I think the challenge is
that parents are desirous to ensure the happiness of their
children and they think that being enlightened and offering their
children every support necessary is going to ensure a strong,
(00:58):
healthy mental attitude and life. But this episode really highlighted
some significant challenges that our kids are facing.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Okay, let's set the stage. We were talking about gender
stereotypes yesterday based on Monday's show. That came up in conversation,
as you would expect when we were watching those boys
throw the baby doll around and I'm really.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Anti that boys will be boys. Okay, It really does
stereotype type of behavior that is not okay.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Now, the conversation moved really quickly from gender roles to
gender identity, and this is where the conversation got a
little bit heated. So let me just tell you who's
involved in the conversation because there's a lot of audio.
There's a lot of voices, and I want you to
know who's saying what. Nathan and Joanne there are traditional parents.
They are very very clear, as you'll hear in the
audio about what they believe about their daughters and their
(01:50):
gender identity. They were challenged by Nick and Sophia, our
positivity parents, Amy and Mark our active parents jumped on
board and got involved as well, and Mark and Tammy,
our upfront parents, also came in with an absolute clanger.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
If my kids decided, well, they're not going to but
if they decided they were men, that wouldn't be an
option in our house. So very clear. Oh my god,
if you're okay with gender to swapping, then you may
as well be an animal.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
So kylie, before we move on, there is a little
bit more audio that we need to talk about. But
first off, We've got to talk about Mark and Tammy's
comment about drawing the line at Furrey's they're okay with
a gender swap, but not with their child thinking that
they're a wall or a cat or a furry, and
the traditional parents saying, if you're okay with gender swapping,
then you may as well be an animal. It's quite
(02:42):
interesting that they've made that connection because gender identity issues
and furry issues, as we talked about on the podcast
several weeks ago, they are interlinked. So when Tumblr was
absolutely blowing up back in the day, there was a
whole lot of gender identity stuff going on, but that's
where the furry moved really took off, and so there's
a lot more going on there. The furry movement is
(03:05):
intertwined inseparably with gender identity issues. Anyway, I just wanted
to make that point now. These comments then sparked a
really long conversation about gender identity, with the parents having
some very different views on the topics.
Speaker 5 (03:20):
Don't you think some people are born like that?
Speaker 4 (03:22):
Though they don't.
Speaker 5 (03:23):
You don't think people are born feeling a certain way.
You don't think that at all, Because a lot of
people do commit suicide because of how they feel about
having those feelings, like they really are born that way
and they can't help how they feel. And if you're
saying to your child this is it. Imagine if they
actually felt that way and couldn't come.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
To you to tell you that, I don't have that
problem and I won't have that problem. But how do
you know? What you're saying is you're creating an environment
in your household where it's least likely to happen. Correct,
it won't happen.
Speaker 5 (03:58):
F I was your daughter and I felt like I
wasn't feeling like a stereotypical girl. Would I be able
to come to you as your daughter to tell you.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
That they can tell me whatever they want. We're very
open dialogue.
Speaker 5 (04:13):
But like you said, it's not going to happen. There's
no way of that happening. It's not happening. So I
was just concerned about that.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
As Christians bringing the faith into it, we really need
to be an open space for people that have these problems.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
I don't feel like it's a problem at all. It
can be what you want.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
As long as you don't heard anybody.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
What difference does it make.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
I don't care what you're doing as long as you're
a good, decent person. If my boy wants to identify
as a girl, and NAT is going to help towards
mental health, do what you gotta do.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Oh my goodness, that was intense. This is such a
challenging conversation, but it's such an important one.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Yeah. Yeah, So after the break, we're going to have
a conversation about what we know, what we don't know,
what the mental health implications are, what we can do
as parents, what was to be teaching our kids around
gender identity, gender identity confusion, and so on. Okay, there
(05:13):
was a lot to unpack from that first part of
this podcast and Monday night's episode. Let's just reset the scene.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
If my kids decided, well, they're not going to but
if they decided they were men, that wouldn't be an
option in our house. So very clear.
Speaker 5 (05:29):
Oh my god, if you're.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
Okay with gender to swapping, then you may as well
be an animal this man and female.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Okay, Kylie, where do you want to start on this one?
There's so many things we can react to.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
What do we know about this?
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Not nearly as much as people would like us to,
So there are I want to be as impartial neutral
and unemotional about what I'm going to talk about now
as possible, because this is one of those topics, as
you saw on the show, that people get very very
defensive about and very strongly emotional about.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
I think that if you're living with a child who's
struggling with this, you would be extremely passionate about how
you move forward.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
You just want to keep you kids safe.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
You just want to mention.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
And for someone who is not living with this, who
has not been exposed to this, it's very easy to
think that you've got all the answers.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
So I was very careful with what I said in
the show, but I was also very very clear. And
the reason that I was careful is because we don't
have good research from anywhere in the world. These gender
identity challenges are extremely uncommon. We don't have good science
on how to treat it at all. And what we
(06:40):
tend to see is that gender identity challenges, especially the
way they've been appearing in the last ten to twenty years,
seem to be associated with a whole lot of other things,
and the diagnosis therefore, I think is quite controversial what
I want to mean by that, So autistic kids often
(07:01):
also receive a gender identity issue a diagnosis. We also
see a high level of diagnosis with kids that are
super anxious, and a lot of kids who may be
struggling with their sexuality. Generally that maybe twenty or thirty
years ago would have come out as gay or lesbian,
they end up with a gender identity diagnosis as well. Now,
(07:23):
the reason that this is so provocative and so controversial
is because the stakes are really high. If you come
out as same sex attracted, then you get to continue
to live your life, but you start to look for
potential romantic partners, intimate partners that are of the same gender,
full stop, end of story. That's about it. There may
be some ostracism and some other psychological issues that could occur,
(07:46):
but in the modern world there's not nearly the same
stigma that there was decades ago.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
There's a level of acceptance that wasn't there.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
There is, and that level of acceptance can still be
a lot higher in certain areas. But the level of
acceptance is there, the compassion, the kindness, the understanding, the Okay,
if that's how you're going to live, that's fine. I'm hetero,
your homo that's okay. But when it comes to gender identity,
if somebody is born into a girl's body and they
(08:16):
think they're a boy, and then you start to do
things like hormone supplementation, top surgery where a girl's breasts
are removed, or you start to put men with all
of their male genitalia into women's change rooms or women's
dressing rooms or women's prisons, all of a sudden we
(08:37):
start to see some or have them competing in women's sports.
We have some situations that are challenging, to say the least.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
So as a heterosexual female who is nearly fifty and
has been going through peri menopause, the changes to my
body with hormones that are specifically mine has been such
a rollercoaster ride for me to deal with so female hormones,
(09:09):
female challenges. I can only imagine what it would be
like to be adding.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Fourteen or fifteen years old and going through this sort
of stuff.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
It's intense.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
So there are a number of things that I've read,
number of books that I've read. I've read as many
research papers as I can find, and there aren't many
good ones. The best book on this topic is a
book called Time to Think by Hannah Barnes, and she
goes through what happened at London's Tavistock Clinic when their
gender identity diagnoses and the programs associated with that absolutely exploded,
(09:43):
and once again her findings are consistent with what the
best data tells us, and that is that when children
come from quite often not always, but quite often challenging
home environments, or when they have depression anxiety, when they
have confusion, just general everyday confusion about life, but it
seems to be amplified because of them time online or
if they're autistic, the chances of getting a gender identity
(10:06):
diagnosis seem to go up substantially. And the argument made
both in her book and by I think the best
researchers in the world. There are lots of people who
would argue strongly and passionately against what I'm saying. I
just want to acknowledge that I think that they're more
ideologically driven than data driven, but that's probably because they've
(10:27):
got first hand experience with it, and that's why their
ideology their view of the world is so strong. From
a distance and being quite dispassionate and just looking at
the data, I think that it's really really clear that
there are a range of other challenges that are going on,
and if we could address those other challenges, we might
not have the same level of gender identity confusion that
we have. Nevertheless, you asked the question what do we
(10:50):
know about it? And that's kind of a long way
of saying not nearly as much as people who are
heavily ideologically driven would have us believe we know. What
we do know suggests that we should be far more
cautious than we are being One more quick thing on this.
In Australia, and I said this on the show, the
Australian Psychological Society requires that all practitioners, all people who
(11:12):
are registered with APRA, which is the governing body for
psychologists and psychiatrists, adopt an affirmation approach. That is, when
somebody steps into their office and says, I know I
was born into a girl's body, but I think I'm
a boy, that they are to be affirmed in that thinking. Now,
I think that that is malpractice because if somebody walks
(11:34):
in and they weigh forty two kilos and they say
I need to lose more weight, you don't say, well,
let's book you in For some surgery. Let's get the
lip suction happening. You start to invite introspection and encourage
them to do some inner work, and you recognize that
they've probably got a needing disorder, and if you were
to book them in for that surgery, then you should
(11:55):
have your license revoked. That's just not appropriate, the decisions
to put these kids onto hormone supplementation when they're only fourteen.
Often they've never even kissed somebody, they haven't even held
hands with somebody. They've got no experience of what it
is to be a man or a woman. Yeah, it's
I don't have a problem with somebody identifying as a
member of the opposite sex to what they were born into.
(12:17):
I actually don't have a problem with that if you've
lived your life and have had sufficient experience to be
able to get to that point. But I just don't
think that fourteen or sixteen or even eighteen year olds
have got the lived experience that the case is twenty
four year olds, like potentially potentially. So anyway, that's what
(12:37):
we know, and most of what we know is what
we don't know.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
And it feels like a conversation we were having twenty
years ago around screens. We had no data, we had
no understanding of the implications of what screens would do
for our children, and we're now dealing with the ramifications
of the devastation that screens have become.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's probably a fair point and
everything where there's a lack of data.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
What are the mental health implications for a young person
struggling with gender identity?
Speaker 1 (13:10):
So this is again why the emotions are so high. Devastating,
is the short answer. The mental health implications are devastating.
If a person doesn't get appropriate treatment, then they spiral
into depression and anxiety and suicidal ideation goes up, and
so too does a likelihood of them making an attempt
on their life.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Sophia are actually tapped into that and acknowledged that many
children have taken their lives when they haven't felt supported
or haven't felt like they can come out and share
the internal struggles that they're having.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
So I want to walk a really fine line here.
It doesn't happen a lot. Every time it does happen,
it's a devastating tragedy and it's completely avoidable, and we
don't want it to happen. So when I say it
doesn't happen a lot. I'm not trying to minimize the
impact on those who are affected, not at all, but
from a purely data driven, numerical, dispassionate perspective, it doesn't
(14:00):
happen a lot because there are not a lot of
people who have these gender identity confusion issues. And again,
the alarmists and the ideologically driven people will say, they
might die if we don't let them remove their breasts,
or they might die if we don't start the hormone
supplementation today, and that I think is understandable. I get
(14:26):
why the alarm is sounding for them, but I also
think that it does them an injustice and a disservice
because then we don't get to have them get the
psychological help that they need from a neuro diversity perspective
or from a depression an anxiety perspective, And we've got
to come at it from all of these different angles.
(14:47):
We can't just start throwing people into these really really
serious situations where irreversible damage can be done. Once that
hormone supplementation happens, or once that top surgery is done,
there's no going back. And for a fourteen year old
or a twelve year old or even a twenty one
year old to make that call. It's the lifelong ramifications
(15:10):
are really really significant.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
So what comparents do if they find themselves in this situation.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Well, again, the good news is the probability is extremely low.
Here's what I would encourage, and it ties in pretty
much with what I said on the TV. Number One,
I'd be removing your kids from screens. Take them away
from the influence of YouTube and tumbler and TikTok and
anywhere else where they can be ongoingly influenced and groomed.
In that direction.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
I would go as far as saying delay delay, delay
delay Once. Once kids have screens, it's really hard to
take a step back, but delaying their introduction to individual
and personal screens.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
They'll usually have been on their screens for quite some
time when these kinds of issues arise, and there is
a correlation between high levels of screen news and gender issues.
The second thing, I'd be having a look and seeing
what's going on in the friendship group because these things
kind of cluster. Third, and this this is absolutely pivotal.
Find good psychological help. And when I say good psychological help,
(16:12):
I mean somebody who's willing to do the hard work,
not just step into an affirmation approach, but actually say,
all right, well, this is how you're identifying right now,
you're identifying as a cat, or you're identifying as a
male even though you're born to a female body. But
we're going to ask you a lot of questions about
this before we start making any permanent decisions. And then
the last thing I'd say is, if your child is
(16:34):
absolute in this, then continue to be compassionate and kind
and accepting. You want to continue the conversations, but delay,
so don't do anything significant from a surgical point of
view or from a hormonal point of view until they
are much much older. Delay. Let them know. When they
(16:55):
are of age, they can make their own decisions about this,
and you will love them and you will support them.
But for now, because they're fourteen or fifteen, or twelve
or seventeen, for now, we're going to take a very
slow and careful approach. We're going to support them and
love them and do what we can to get them
the help that they need so that they can work
through this. And if at the age of twenty one,
twenty two, twenty six, whatever it is, they decide that
(17:17):
this is actually who they are and how they need
to proceed. That's a completely different conversation, a completely different
conversation than when you've got a child who's ten or
twelve or sixteen that's going through it. So that is
pretty heavy stuff. I think that it's really compelling. Wasn't
it a great series? Wasn't it such a great show?
Speaker 2 (17:37):
I just wish it was longer.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
I know, I know, I know. Another big season of
parental Guidance, all wrapped up. Four big topics mental health, bullying,
peer pressure, and screen time. We've covered them all. We've
had the conversations that have been happening right around the
country over the last month because of what this show does.
I just love that we get to do it. Kylie.
(17:58):
I've loved talking with you about it. That's it. We
go back to normal programming for the Happy Families podcast
as of next week. Thank you so much to everyone
who's listened, and hopefully you've found the conversations invigorating, provocative,
and helpful in the way that you are engaging with
your family and loved ones. The Happy Families podcast has
been produced by Justin Rouland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce
(18:20):
has been our executive producer during this limited series. We
appreciate Craig's help once again and Mim Hammond's provides all
of the additional support, ADMIN and additional guidance around research
for the podcast. More information and more resources about making
your family happier can be found at happyfamilies dot com
dot you see it Tomorrow
On Monday Night's episode of Parental Guidance, the fourth and
final episode in this limited series on Channel nine. Boy,
oh boy, did the conversation heat up. Today We're going
to be talking about what happened and why. There's going
to be a lot of audio. There's going to be
a lot of provocation. I guess I'm so excited for
today's episode of the podcast. Hello, Welcome to the Happy
(00:26):
Families Podcast, realparenting Solutions, every single day on Australia's most
downloaded parenting podcast. We are Justin and Kylie Colson.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
It's interesting to me that gender identity ended up in
our mental health episode, and I think the challenge is
that parents are desirous to ensure the happiness of their
children and they think that being enlightened and offering their
children every support necessary is going to ensure a strong,
(00:58):
healthy mental attitude and life. But this episode really highlighted
some significant challenges that our kids are facing.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Okay, let's set the stage. We were talking about gender
stereotypes yesterday based on Monday's show. That came up in conversation,
as you would expect when we were watching those boys
throw the baby doll around and I'm really.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Anti that boys will be boys. Okay, It really does
stereotype type of behavior that is not okay.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Now, the conversation moved really quickly from gender roles to
gender identity, and this is where the conversation got a
little bit heated. So let me just tell you who's
involved in the conversation because there's a lot of audio.
There's a lot of voices, and I want you to
know who's saying what. Nathan and Joanne there are traditional parents.
They are very very clear, as you'll hear in the
audio about what they believe about their daughters and their
(01:50):
gender identity. They were challenged by Nick and Sophia, our
positivity parents, Amy and Mark our active parents jumped on
board and got involved as well, and Mark and Tammy,
our upfront parents, also came in with an absolute clanger.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
If my kids decided, well, they're not going to but
if they decided they were men, that wouldn't be an
option in our house. So very clear. Oh my god,
if you're okay with gender to swapping, then you may
as well be an animal.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
So kylie, before we move on, there is a little
bit more audio that we need to talk about. But
first off, We've got to talk about Mark and Tammy's
comment about drawing the line at Furrey's they're okay with
a gender swap, but not with their child thinking that
they're a wall or a cat or a furry, and
the traditional parents saying, if you're okay with gender swapping,
then you may as well be an animal. It's quite
(02:42):
interesting that they've made that connection because gender identity issues
and furry issues, as we talked about on the podcast
several weeks ago, they are interlinked. So when Tumblr was
absolutely blowing up back in the day, there was a
whole lot of gender identity stuff going on, but that's
where the furry moved really took off, and so there's
a lot more going on there. The furry movement is
(03:05):
intertwined inseparably with gender identity issues. Anyway, I just wanted
to make that point now. These comments then sparked a
really long conversation about gender identity, with the parents having
some very different views on the topics.
Speaker 5 (03:20):
Don't you think some people are born like that?
Speaker 4 (03:22):
Though they don't.
Speaker 5 (03:23):
You don't think people are born feeling a certain way.
You don't think that at all, Because a lot of
people do commit suicide because of how they feel about
having those feelings, like they really are born that way
and they can't help how they feel. And if you're
saying to your child this is it. Imagine if they
actually felt that way and couldn't come.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
To you to tell you that, I don't have that
problem and I won't have that problem. But how do
you know? What you're saying is you're creating an environment
in your household where it's least likely to happen. Correct,
it won't happen.
Speaker 5 (03:58):
F I was your daughter and I felt like I
wasn't feeling like a stereotypical girl. Would I be able
to come to you as your daughter to tell you.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
That they can tell me whatever they want. We're very
open dialogue.
Speaker 5 (04:13):
But like you said, it's not going to happen. There's
no way of that happening. It's not happening. So I
was just concerned about that.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
As Christians bringing the faith into it, we really need
to be an open space for people that have these problems.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
I don't feel like it's a problem at all. It
can be what you want.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
As long as you don't heard anybody.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
What difference does it make.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
I don't care what you're doing as long as you're
a good, decent person. If my boy wants to identify
as a girl, and NAT is going to help towards
mental health, do what you gotta do.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Oh my goodness, that was intense. This is such a
challenging conversation, but it's such an important one.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Yeah. Yeah, So after the break, we're going to have
a conversation about what we know, what we don't know,
what the mental health implications are, what we can do
as parents, what was to be teaching our kids around
gender identity, gender identity confusion, and so on. Okay, there
(05:13):
was a lot to unpack from that first part of
this podcast and Monday night's episode. Let's just reset the scene.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
If my kids decided, well, they're not going to but
if they decided they were men, that wouldn't be an
option in our house. So very clear.
Speaker 5 (05:29):
Oh my god, if you're.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
Okay with gender to swapping, then you may as well
be an animal this man and female.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Okay, Kylie, where do you want to start on this one?
There's so many things we can react to.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
What do we know about this?
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Not nearly as much as people would like us to,
So there are I want to be as impartial neutral
and unemotional about what I'm going to talk about now
as possible, because this is one of those topics, as
you saw on the show, that people get very very
defensive about and very strongly emotional about.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
I think that if you're living with a child who's
struggling with this, you would be extremely passionate about how
you move forward.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
You just want to keep you kids safe.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
You just want to mention.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
And for someone who is not living with this, who
has not been exposed to this, it's very easy to
think that you've got all the answers.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
So I was very careful with what I said in
the show, but I was also very very clear. And
the reason that I was careful is because we don't
have good research from anywhere in the world. These gender
identity challenges are extremely uncommon. We don't have good science
on how to treat it at all. And what we
(06:40):
tend to see is that gender identity challenges, especially the
way they've been appearing in the last ten to twenty years,
seem to be associated with a whole lot of other things,
and the diagnosis therefore, I think is quite controversial what
I want to mean by that, So autistic kids often
(07:01):
also receive a gender identity issue a diagnosis. We also
see a high level of diagnosis with kids that are
super anxious, and a lot of kids who may be
struggling with their sexuality. Generally that maybe twenty or thirty
years ago would have come out as gay or lesbian,
they end up with a gender identity diagnosis as well. Now,
(07:23):
the reason that this is so provocative and so controversial
is because the stakes are really high. If you come
out as same sex attracted, then you get to continue
to live your life, but you start to look for
potential romantic partners, intimate partners that are of the same gender,
full stop, end of story. That's about it. There may
be some ostracism and some other psychological issues that could occur,
(07:46):
but in the modern world there's not nearly the same
stigma that there was decades ago.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
There's a level of acceptance that wasn't there.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
There is, and that level of acceptance can still be
a lot higher in certain areas. But the level of
acceptance is there, the compassion, the kindness, the understanding, the Okay,
if that's how you're going to live, that's fine. I'm hetero,
your homo that's okay. But when it comes to gender identity,
if somebody is born into a girl's body and they
(08:16):
think they're a boy, and then you start to do
things like hormone supplementation, top surgery where a girl's breasts
are removed, or you start to put men with all
of their male genitalia into women's change rooms or women's
dressing rooms or women's prisons, all of a sudden we
(08:37):
start to see some or have them competing in women's sports.
We have some situations that are challenging, to say the least.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
So as a heterosexual female who is nearly fifty and
has been going through peri menopause, the changes to my
body with hormones that are specifically mine has been such
a rollercoaster ride for me to deal with so female hormones,
(09:09):
female challenges. I can only imagine what it would be
like to be adding.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Fourteen or fifteen years old and going through this sort
of stuff.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
It's intense.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
So there are a number of things that I've read,
number of books that I've read. I've read as many
research papers as I can find, and there aren't many
good ones. The best book on this topic is a
book called Time to Think by Hannah Barnes, and she
goes through what happened at London's Tavistock Clinic when their
gender identity diagnoses and the programs associated with that absolutely exploded,
(09:43):
and once again her findings are consistent with what the
best data tells us, and that is that when children
come from quite often not always, but quite often challenging
home environments, or when they have depression anxiety, when they
have confusion, just general everyday confusion about life, but it
seems to be amplified because of them time online or
if they're autistic, the chances of getting a gender identity
(10:06):
diagnosis seem to go up substantially. And the argument made
both in her book and by I think the best
researchers in the world. There are lots of people who
would argue strongly and passionately against what I'm saying. I
just want to acknowledge that I think that they're more
ideologically driven than data driven, but that's probably because they've
(10:27):
got first hand experience with it, and that's why their
ideology their view of the world is so strong. From
a distance and being quite dispassionate and just looking at
the data, I think that it's really really clear that
there are a range of other challenges that are going on,
and if we could address those other challenges, we might
not have the same level of gender identity confusion that
we have. Nevertheless, you asked the question what do we
(10:50):
know about it? And that's kind of a long way
of saying not nearly as much as people who are
heavily ideologically driven would have us believe we know. What
we do know suggests that we should be far more
cautious than we are being One more quick thing on this.
In Australia, and I said this on the show, the
Australian Psychological Society requires that all practitioners, all people who
(11:12):
are registered with APRA, which is the governing body for
psychologists and psychiatrists, adopt an affirmation approach. That is, when
somebody steps into their office and says, I know I
was born into a girl's body, but I think I'm
a boy, that they are to be affirmed in that thinking. Now,
I think that that is malpractice because if somebody walks
(11:34):
in and they weigh forty two kilos and they say
I need to lose more weight, you don't say, well,
let's book you in For some surgery. Let's get the
lip suction happening. You start to invite introspection and encourage
them to do some inner work, and you recognize that
they've probably got a needing disorder, and if you were
to book them in for that surgery, then you should
(11:55):
have your license revoked. That's just not appropriate, the decisions
to put these kids onto hormone supplementation when they're only fourteen.
Often they've never even kissed somebody, they haven't even held
hands with somebody. They've got no experience of what it
is to be a man or a woman. Yeah, it's
I don't have a problem with somebody identifying as a
member of the opposite sex to what they were born into.
(12:17):
I actually don't have a problem with that if you've
lived your life and have had sufficient experience to be
able to get to that point. But I just don't
think that fourteen or sixteen or even eighteen year olds
have got the lived experience that the case is twenty
four year olds, like potentially potentially. So anyway, that's what
(12:37):
we know, and most of what we know is what
we don't know.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
And it feels like a conversation we were having twenty
years ago around screens. We had no data, we had
no understanding of the implications of what screens would do
for our children, and we're now dealing with the ramifications
of the devastation that screens have become.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's probably a fair point and
everything where there's a lack of data.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
What are the mental health implications for a young person
struggling with gender identity?
Speaker 1 (13:10):
So this is again why the emotions are so high. Devastating,
is the short answer. The mental health implications are devastating.
If a person doesn't get appropriate treatment, then they spiral
into depression and anxiety and suicidal ideation goes up, and
so too does a likelihood of them making an attempt
on their life.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Sophia are actually tapped into that and acknowledged that many
children have taken their lives when they haven't felt supported
or haven't felt like they can come out and share
the internal struggles that they're having.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
So I want to walk a really fine line here.
It doesn't happen a lot. Every time it does happen,
it's a devastating tragedy and it's completely avoidable, and we
don't want it to happen. So when I say it
doesn't happen a lot. I'm not trying to minimize the
impact on those who are affected, not at all, but
from a purely data driven, numerical, dispassionate perspective, it doesn't
(14:00):
happen a lot because there are not a lot of
people who have these gender identity confusion issues. And again,
the alarmists and the ideologically driven people will say, they
might die if we don't let them remove their breasts,
or they might die if we don't start the hormone
supplementation today, and that I think is understandable. I get
(14:26):
why the alarm is sounding for them, but I also
think that it does them an injustice and a disservice
because then we don't get to have them get the
psychological help that they need from a neuro diversity perspective
or from a depression an anxiety perspective, And we've got
to come at it from all of these different angles.
(14:47):
We can't just start throwing people into these really really
serious situations where irreversible damage can be done. Once that
hormone supplementation happens, or once that top surgery is done,
there's no going back. And for a fourteen year old
or a twelve year old or even a twenty one
year old to make that call. It's the lifelong ramifications
(15:10):
are really really significant.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
So what comparents do if they find themselves in this situation.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Well, again, the good news is the probability is extremely low.
Here's what I would encourage, and it ties in pretty
much with what I said on the TV. Number One,
I'd be removing your kids from screens. Take them away
from the influence of YouTube and tumbler and TikTok and
anywhere else where they can be ongoingly influenced and groomed.
In that direction.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
I would go as far as saying delay delay, delay
delay Once. Once kids have screens, it's really hard to
take a step back, but delaying their introduction to individual
and personal screens.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
They'll usually have been on their screens for quite some
time when these kinds of issues arise, and there is
a correlation between high levels of screen news and gender issues.
The second thing, I'd be having a look and seeing
what's going on in the friendship group because these things
kind of cluster. Third, and this this is absolutely pivotal.
Find good psychological help. And when I say good psychological help,
(16:12):
I mean somebody who's willing to do the hard work,
not just step into an affirmation approach, but actually say,
all right, well, this is how you're identifying right now,
you're identifying as a cat, or you're identifying as a
male even though you're born to a female body. But
we're going to ask you a lot of questions about
this before we start making any permanent decisions. And then
the last thing I'd say is, if your child is
(16:34):
absolute in this, then continue to be compassionate and kind
and accepting. You want to continue the conversations, but delay,
so don't do anything significant from a surgical point of
view or from a hormonal point of view until they
are much much older. Delay. Let them know. When they
(16:55):
are of age, they can make their own decisions about this,
and you will love them and you will support them.
But for now, because they're fourteen or fifteen, or twelve
or seventeen, for now, we're going to take a very
slow and careful approach. We're going to support them and
love them and do what we can to get them
the help that they need so that they can work
through this. And if at the age of twenty one,
twenty two, twenty six, whatever it is, they decide that
(17:17):
this is actually who they are and how they need
to proceed. That's a completely different conversation, a completely different
conversation than when you've got a child who's ten or
twelve or sixteen that's going through it. So that is
pretty heavy stuff. I think that it's really compelling. Wasn't
it a great series? Wasn't it such a great show?
Speaker 2 (17:37):
I just wish it was longer.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
I know, I know, I know. Another big season of
parental Guidance, all wrapped up. Four big topics mental health, bullying,
peer pressure, and screen time. We've covered them all. We've
had the conversations that have been happening right around the
country over the last month because of what this show does.
I just love that we get to do it. Kylie.
(17:58):
I've loved talking with you about it. That's it. We
go back to normal programming for the Happy Families podcast
as of next week. Thank you so much to everyone
who's listened, and hopefully you've found the conversations invigorating, provocative,
and helpful in the way that you are engaging with
your family and loved ones. The Happy Families podcast has
been produced by Justin Rouland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce
(18:20):
has been our executive producer during this limited series. We
appreciate Craig's help once again and Mim Hammond's provides all
of the additional support, ADMIN and additional guidance around research
for the podcast. More information and more resources about making
your family happier can be found at happyfamilies dot com
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