January 7, 2024 • 56 mins
Allyship is defined by the Cambridge Dictionary as “the quality or practice of helping or supporting other people who are part of a group that is treated badly or unfairly, although you are not yourself a member of this group. One of the most important ways to practise allyship is just to listen. Allyship means using your power, position, or privilege to uplift others.” It is also an acronym for Action, Listening, Learning and Yielding (A.L.L.Y.).
From #BlackLivesMatter, #StopAsianHate, #LGTBQIA+rights to the #warinGaza and the #warinUkraine, there have been numerous global incidents over the last few years that have garnered attention and highlighted the need for allies.
In this episode, we discuss allyship, what it is, the challenges of it, why it is necessary, how to properly inform oneself and encourage participation in some causes. We also delve into allyship on the ground level as Zimbabweans, dissecting patriarchy and how men can be allies against it. This is truly a layered topic which evokes a myriad of emotions and questions.
How can you be an ally? What should you read to be properly informed when seeking to be an ally? What is the best way to be an ally? Delve deeper with us into allyship and how complex yet necessary it is.
Zim Shoutout: Stephanie Travers
Zimbabwean born Stephanie Travers is the deputy team principal of Louis Hamilton's Extreme E team X44 Vida Carbon Racing. Before that, she spent three years working with the Mercedes F1 team. Shoutout to her for making waves in spaces where women don’t often get a chance to shine.
Keep up with Stephanie
Instagram: @stephanietravers (https://www.instagram.com/stephanietravers/)
We'd love to hear from you!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:13):
I'm always always, sir, be careful love.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Those um books. Let well use your head. They will
tear you lack a purple talk. Oh no, no, no, yeah,
yeah yeah yeah, oh no no no. Hi. I'm Amanda
(00:40):
and I'm Rumby.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Welcome to its lay It.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
We're in a long distance friendship that started over twenty
years ago when we were in high school.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
We'll be talking about all things life, love, family, anything
and everything else under the sun.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Delve deeper with us because in life, you know my layers.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Oh no, no, no, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Welcome to another episode of It's Layered Podcast. What I Do,
What I do, What I do? Good?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, somebody we need to find that sound
I know, asked DJ it kicks or something and just like.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
A salad because apps all the time, honey, it defeats
the purpose. Anyway. How are you doing, Amanda?
Speaker 3 (01:30):
I'm good, my love.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
How are you? How are you? Yo? Girl? We could
go on, we could write a novel. I'm doing alright,
surviving winter monthsA here like it's great, gloomy trying to
I'm that vitamin d intake and just the little sunshine
we get.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
So I don't know if I envy you guys, Like
I mean, I love I love European Christmas or like
I should say more than Hemisphere Christmas.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
With the cold, the snow, that that whole.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
But I love it.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
But to actually live it, it's like, okay, no, I
like to visit and leave and leave.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
I don't want to be like seeing the build up.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Yeah, the build up is that's what breaks you because
you see these days. I think at like for for
thirty now or just before four thirty, it's black, like
it's dark outside, like pitch black.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
So and meanwhile we're recording now and it's meant to
be my evening and it's like some obviously, so it's
still light outside, trying to put a child down when
it's just like you'd be looking at you like are
you crazy?
Speaker 3 (02:33):
It's like are you there? There's no winning in life.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
You need to know there's no winning.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
To pick your battles, use your yeah, and speaking about that,
which is so apt for our episode today, our episode
on ally ship.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Yeah, how do you define ally ship? So that'st word,
very big buzz word. I decided to let me use
the dictionary. Okay, it's dictionary. It okay, So according to
the Cambridge English Dictionary, it's allyship is the quality or
practice of helping or supporting other people who are part
of a group that is treated badly or unfairly, although
(03:09):
you are not yourself a member of this group. One
of the most important ways to practice allyship is just
to listen. I thought that was quite a.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Again for the people on the back, just to listen.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Just to listen. One of the most important ways to
practice allyship is just to listen. So just listening, close
your mouth and open your ears and listen. Actually, so,
I think that's a definition that was given and I
thought it was really I need I say more.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
That's now you've just yeah, I guess that's just nailed it.
I mean, I guess the only thing in our to
make it more like less dictionary is just that it's
obviously come up in the last couple of years. It's
a concept that's probably always exists, but it's actually now
(04:01):
got terms and all these things around it, you know,
and some people do it naturally and semple I've had
to learn to do it. So I think that's the
only thing with allyship that is like something that I
think future from now on and future generations.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
It's just going to be part of living.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Yes, really yes, because I think for some time there
was just no awareness or understanding of the need. You know,
they say that if you don't have the word for
a term or something you need, it's hard to feel like,
how can you actually get the support.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
To conceptualize and sexualize?
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Now that we have the vocabulary, it helps and will
help build stronger forms of allyship and so on and
so forth. So it's really interesting. So of course a
man has already spoken about how it's become a topic
that's come up more and more over the last couple
of years, after social movements such as Black Lives Matter,
(04:59):
Stop Asian Hate or advocating for the lgbt QUI plus community,
as well as we've seen the wars in Gaza and Ukraine. Yo,
how do allies play a role? Like actually just listing
those and in the last few years it's right, wild,
(05:19):
okay wild, But how do allies play a role actually
in these scenarios and situations?
Speaker 1 (05:27):
I think the way you first described it, that is
like rallying and advocating for a group of people that
you're not a part of, yes, who have been marginalized
essentially right, So all those social movements, I mean that
you've mentioned the wars happening that you've mentioned, We're obviously
not there. I'm obviously not of Asian descent all those things.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Hence we need to show up, right.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
That's that's the that's the I think it was Rihanna
who said, no, tell all your white friends pull up pully,
want to put they want to have dinner with you
and and love your culture, blah blah blah, talk about it.
And I think that is how allies play a role,
Like not only are we listening intently, we're now also
(06:12):
educating ourselves on the right stuff. And that's now we're
also taking action as well, Like then what And I
feel like it's so it's a tricky thing social media
because like, in some ways people want to know where
you stand, where you do this, But I feel like
it's such a personal role or maybe in my life
I've had to like break it down to day to
(06:34):
day things, like are they moments when I can be
an ally in the situation for sure?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
I don't know for sure. It's definitely tricky And I
think you hit the nail on the head when you
say that educate yourself. I think during Black Lives Matter,
for us as black people, it was obviously quite It
affected us a lot. Yes, we know we're not black
American because some people brought that up. You're not you
know it's happening in America. But it's like, we know
(07:05):
what it means to be black. If you're black, you're black,
you're black. If you're black here, you're black there, you're
black everywhere. I'm sorry, there's no sort of differentiation. And
when people are like, but why and wanting you to
explain all these things, and it actually gets exhausting for
the person in that community experiencing that. So that the
Asian who's experiencing Asian hate, people in the lgbtq I
(07:28):
A plus community who are being marginalized, they're tired of
having to explain how they're being killed off, how in
Uganda it's illegal, and you know they are afraid of
their lives. Do you understand what I'm saying? Definitely, I'm
I'm dealing with and trying to persist it internally for
myself and now you want me to break it down
(07:51):
for you. And usually people who ask that come across
with an ignorant mindset, like they're not wanting it's just like, oh,
but why is it an issue? You know, and it's
very why is it a problem? Why is it a problem? Yes?
Speaker 1 (08:06):
And I think also in this year of twenty twenty three,
twenty twenty four plus we got the internet.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Yeah, it's like what why are you asking me?
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Like there's people who've done research articles on this, you
can explain the whole history, reliable resources you can use
to find out the history of what's going on. Yes,
you know, and I think like even like and try
to think of even in Australia now with what's happening
in Gaza, and it's like Palestine Israel, which side and
then you find out that the history on both ends
(08:37):
is so layered, So okay, but let's not even But
then there's also that whole thing with ceasefire, Like as
much as the history is there and whoever thinks they
write things, they're right, But at the same time, it's
like you there's people dying who are.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Innocently part of this as well.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
So it's like all these things where it's like, Okay,
you need to just really find an independent resource we
can really go through everything, and you still have to
use your judgment to realize, Okay, what am I what's next?
And I feel like a lot of times people just
want to be told like this is right, this is wrong, yes,
And I think allyship really pushes you to be like, no,
(09:17):
it's your own journey, like you think, what do you
think sounds right?
Speaker 2 (09:22):
You know for sure? For sure? I completely agree. And
part of it too, and I don't know, maybe we'll
go into this later, but I think part of it
too is taking a step back from what you're seeing
on social media and all the buzzwords and this person
saying you have to do you really need to take
a step back from you know, other opinion and take
(09:44):
a moment to formulate your own informed yeah, keyword informed opinion.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Yeah, and also give yourself space to say I don't know.
So I feel like with social media, especially when something happens,
people are so quick to post on their stories or whatever,
whichever side they support or don't support or and yeah,
in one way, that's great, but it's like, okay, but
have you processed this enough to come from a space
(10:11):
where you knew nothing about this to now enough for
you to have such a strong stance whatever side yes,
So I think that's just one makes it tough because like,
do you actually know exactly? Yeah, yeah, any situations that
you feel allies make things worse.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Oh, so many, so many. I think allies can make
it worse one when their opinion, well, they develop an
opinion shaped with misinformation. Absolutely, I think just in general
as humans, we cause problems when you are misinformed. I
think too when sometimes aggression you know or I don't know,
(10:54):
causing beef or wanting to fight. Yes, of course we
appreciate you stuff for us and supporting us, but sometimes
the message doesn't get across. I'll give you this example.
You know, we all heard about all lives matter, you know,
when people that that conversation, and the issue with that is,
(11:18):
you know, people are saying, yes, but we all matter,
and it's like putting yourself in the shoes of the
one being suffering someone who's having a hard time, and saying,
but also me trying to put yourself here. Yes, you
don't even need to you don't need to be in
the equation. It's about empathy. What you need to understand
is allyship is about empathy. I may not understand fully,
(11:41):
I may not have experienced anything similar to this. However,
I'm here for you. What can I do? Not you
assuming what you can do? I e. Being aggressive people
are going during the protests and causing scenes or creating chaos,
or do you understand what I'm saying. There's so many
way where you make it about yourself. I think the
key thing is when people make it about themselves. We
(12:05):
the progression that you need. What an ally should be
doing is saying, you know, in certain rooms, when you're
at dinner with similar people who may not understand what
exactly is happening in gaza or so on and so forth,
you can be the person who says, actually, you know
the reason why X y Z is because ABC? Do
you undersund like giving them the information so that me,
(12:27):
as the one who's marginalized or suffering, doesn't have to
be like, oh but you know this. This this is
easier people. It's more palatable when it comes from someone
who looks like yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
And also to offer different perspectives. I find a lot
of times in these rooms they're trying to make its
trivialize it right, like ah.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
Why are they even stressing about that?
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Like you know, and it's like have you ever folt,
how we feel if this and that happened to you.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
No, so.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
You know, and I feel like a lot of times,
especially here with immigration issues, you know, you got people
who there's this whole theory of your jumping the queue,
like they call them boat people, people who come on
a boat as opposed to like applying from a detention
center overseas.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Or for asylum or whatever.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Okay, obviously, once you come over on a boat, you're
already here. So now that you have to like pretty
much something people yeah, see it as a fast track
to get in, and then there's this whole thing about it,
like people were very opinionated about it.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
But it's like have you ever thought how desperate.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
One must be to get a little boat, right, to
like seek a better life? And like, yes, of course
the system is broken, we already know that, but it's
like such a wide up. And I think that's where
the word empathy, as you said, comes in, because it's like, Okay,
don't make it such such a broad thing. That's why
I think I think allyship needs to be very singular.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
And you you.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Decide do you think that sounds right yes or not?
And what do you do about it? How are you listening,
how are you providing a voice if you can? Yes,
and for everything as well.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
I was gonna say, sometimes you need to know when
you don't need to say anything. It's like I cannot
I don't have the information, I don't have the ability
because there are a lot of causes to if I
and they stay coming up and speaking to a point
actually about do you know what it's like to have
to hop on a boat to make your way to
(14:22):
another country to seek asylum? If anyone has not yet,
you should watch The Swimmers on Netflix. That film will
give you a great sort of understanding of what it
means for all these immigrants who are escaping wars and
you know, difficulties back home, even in Europe. You know,
there's been a lot of talk about illegal immigration, which
(14:44):
is a whole other but when you're just seeing it
as with humanity in your heart, it changes how your
perspective on how how things done and how hard it
must be. Brutal, Yes, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
And we already know that living in the sport, but
there's another level.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
It's another level, yeah, another anyway, So watch that if
you haven't. But do you think you're a strong. Ally,
this is.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
A quot.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Because I don't know.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
I literally as you said that to you girl, you
put me on the chopping blog. Yeah, it's literally, I
don't know. I would like to think I am. I
would like to think I am learning to become become one.
I would like to think that. One thing I definitely
know that came out of Black Lives Matter for me
(15:42):
personally was that if you're silent, you're complicit, not silent
as in you're listening. Listening silence is different because that's
when you're like educating yourself. But like when something happens
and you have the power or the space to speak
up and you don't because you're like too high to
awkward in most cases, then we are also complicit because
(16:04):
your silence makes it seem like it's okay and that
person should be added. So I think I have learned
that my voice, even if it's a quiet, meek voice,
it's it's it's important as well, right, because a lot
of times people will see things and it's like and
when someone speaks up, everyone's yeah, like if I'm thinking
the same thing.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Because we are human, we do all.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Feel the same things, and like most times and then
like I feel like I've learned that and I think
I'm still I'm realizing that allyship is a journey and
it's not said and done like Okay, I was an ally,
it stop Asian hate, I'm done.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
It's back.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Like it's like there's so many things that we need
to I don't know, human levels usually actually daily that
we need to be calling things out.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
And I was going to ask you to ask you
do you think it's only about the posting? Hey, you
guys need to know that x y Z is is
that if you don't post, you're not an ally or
if you don't say hey you guys, do you understand
like on a public sade?
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yeah, I think you know what, This is a tricky
one because I do think when you have a huge platform,
your voice matters. So like you know, you see on
a KIMK and you know, they post pretty quickly when
things happen because they almost have to in a way,
they have to because they have to show that. And
also and that's yeah, if there's such a word, because
(17:38):
it's like okay, then now you start to think, Okay,
what are you actually standing for?
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Study you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (17:42):
But at the same time, if they don't say anything,
it's such a problem. So it's like I don't envy celebrities,
so my my, in my everyday life. I don't think
you're forced to do anything that you're not that's not
coming from the heart, you know. I think you have
to be honest with yourself and honest the people are
(18:04):
trying to uphold and uplift in that moment. It's not
about you, as you said, so why and if you
feel the urge to to obviously talk about it and
to help and to post, and you have the correct resources,
then yeah, reliable resources, then why not. But if you're
still in a moment of learning, a moment of education,
(18:27):
then maybe premature to really.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
So it's like it's so dependent. What do you think
I think. I think it is very dependent. And I
think sometimes the strong form of allyship is in the
closed within closed doors, and I've seen it personally in
rooms where people have these opinions and then to be
(18:50):
able to actually use your voice and say, actually, I
don't think that's so correct, or actually it's actually harder
than just posting that on So I will tell yeah,
for free, I will tell you this. It is so
much harder to be in a room where you have
people who probably look like you or believe the same
same values, that have the same values that you do,
(19:13):
and they bring up something that may seem sort of
is left fields, especially if you consider yourself an ally
and having to say no, actually, I don't think that's correct,
or have you ever considered that? So there's actually sometimes
more power of influence in those spaces. So I just
want people to know that it's not always about Yes.
(19:36):
Of course, if you have a platform and can share,
do so. Sometimes I think we are scared to share
because we don't know. There's a lot of information going around.
Am I sharing the right thing in the right way,
especially when a buzzy topic.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Yeah, you don't have time to educate a buzzy topic
you might not know lots about exactly.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
And that's why sometimes it's good to take a step back,
take a moment, to do what you need to do
to figure out.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
That's just like that Empire dude, which do you remember
the sorry story time the Empire guy?
Speaker 3 (20:08):
I forget what just small letter?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
I think, oh, yes, all the celebrities were like he
was attacked.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
I know, Jersey, he's innocent.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Jersey's in the Nigerian dudes were like a man you
were paid to paid those posts of support because the
initial thing was he had been it was a hate
crime and he had been attacked. And I think the
thing was stand with Jesse. So it's like that's the
thing as well with posting, because you got both talk
(20:40):
quick to far stored out.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
So edumate yourself. You gotta edumacate yourself to Speaking of edumacation,
you know when we talk about the right resources, Sorry,
I'm really digressing. It's just because what are the right resources?
Because we recently had this conversation We're talking about the
war and the conflict in Gaza, and we're like, okay,
(21:10):
what are the informed resources, especially for things like war,
because war is genders on every side. Every side, someone
will tell you what they want you and put it
in a way you want to hear. Will they want
you to hear it, and someone else will come and
give it to you in a way that you want
to hear it. It's personal disclaiment. I want to say,
(21:32):
I get very triggered by reading the news. I'm very
all the time. It's a very hard thing for me
to do. I typically will be like, Okay, this keeps
coming up, and then headlines and then eventually I'll be like,
let me do my research. But I'm not someone who's
like quick fast, like yeah, let's hear what's more So,
(21:53):
it's very triggering. So if you're someone who feels like
I have a very difficult time with reading the news
in general.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
The empathy level was on one hundred room big, I
feel it's hard. It's tough as well, because let's not
to get even deeper into it, let's not lie that
the media is media is controlled by certain entities. So
when you're even if you say I'm going to watch
CNN or BBC, somebody's paying them checks march and they
(22:22):
have a certain they have a certain image American Well yeah, exactly.
So it's like I remember, even for Zimbabwe, there was
a time when I had to like grow a lot
of respect for our Jazerra because it felt like when
they reported our news about Zimbabwe, it was like the
real thing that's going on, and they will show you
both sides and literally decide, you know what I mean,
(22:43):
where As like BBC was doing it, you ain't know Gabi.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Was in trouble, like it was just gab is the
worst thing ever?
Speaker 1 (22:49):
There was no nuance to it, Yes, because obviously all
the white farmers are being kicked out, so BBC just
you know, So it's like you really have to.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
I think that's where you have to practice your coming sense.
And maybe this is where this common sense is not
so common, but.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Yes it's not. And I think that's where discussions play
a pivotal role. Okay, this is what the media is saying,
is what that outlet is saying. But like you know,
can I hear from someone on the ground or can
I what more can I find out about this situation?
And you just have to go Sometimes you just have to.
As you said before, you don't have to say anything.
(23:24):
You can just be absorbing, absorbing and.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
Just say no.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Look again, I'm in a space of I don't know.
I'm still taking it all in because yeah, how do
you trust?
Speaker 2 (23:35):
How do you honestly? And also in your media outlets,
it's also personalities, media personalities and all that. Be careful.
It's hard. There's no there's no answer. Basically, the answer
to that question is there's you need to forget figure
it out, figure it out, apply your is that your
(23:59):
brain is that what theta.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
Yes, use your.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Exactly you know this.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
So what allieship is?
Speaker 1 (24:09):
There's action we spoke a there's listening, there's learning, and
then there's yielding. So I think yielding is more to
do with oh, okay, maybe I don't quite know as
much on this topic, or okay, I need to get
back on that, or you know, so, how do you
think we can adopt each of these to become better allies?
Speaker 2 (24:27):
It's a really good, uh, really good question. And I
think for me, action we've spoken about already quite a bit,
whether we're learning when to speak up and again I
will reiterate sometimes speaking up is in those uncomfortable space.
I think I've had to do this too many times.
That's why it's like I'm just like, yeah, are you
doing it? But speaking up? Listening, I think it's as
(24:53):
we saw from the Cambridge Dictionary, definition being one of
the most important parts and listening with our prejudgment prejudice
to listen for what it is and hear that person's
point of view and then apply your medulla oblongata to
make a you know, informed, you know decision we spoke about,
(25:17):
which is reading multiple resources. Also, history is a great
way to learn beyond just like the news saying this
is what's happened is well, but if you can go
back to the history of that culture, of those people
of that country or that area, it's also very informative
(25:37):
because it's like it gives you a greater perspective like, oh,
we've been done, We've done been dealing with this, you know,
even history in the sense for example, Biblical history with
the issue of Gaza, with the issue like there's so
many beyond just what is current affairs looking back and
(25:57):
then yielding. I think A Manda said did so well
when she said, sometimes you have to be like, you know, here,
I don't have enough for me to form an opinion
that is capable of moving things forward positively in some
positive direction. You know, maybe I need to take a
(26:18):
step back and just say I don't know. I'm here
for you to listen. And also yielding could be how
can I help you in terms of removing self and
saying yes, I must tell them how to do this?
How what do you need? How do you need me
to stand up for you and support you?
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Yeah, yeah, it's so funny you say that because I remember,
like another story it was just becoming story time.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
She just have done this episode a story time.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
But like, like literally, I remember we were hiring a
lady of African descent. I'm not gonna, in fact Nigerian.
Why am I gonna actually like, I'm just gonna say it,
just a Nigerian. And then we have some American ladies
at our work as well, and one of them is Colombian.
So like, the accents are coming in thick and fast
from all over the world, right, and like our hi
(27:08):
manager after interviewing her because I don't quite understand her,
and I was like, oh, but you understand the quity downstairs.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
We's Columbian.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Then you know looks, you know, because Colombians are known
to be really good looking as united so many times.
So like but it's just like that, like sometimes even
the ally ship is in showing someone else their own prettages. Like,
you know, we can't really use accents as like a
way to hire or fire someone one two if you
(27:41):
accept this person with this accent, that one with an
accent like open the doors, you know, just because the
other one the quity ptuity doesn't mean that, you know.
So it's like I find a lot of times I've
had to have those where it's not like I guess
it's like calling out right because it's like, hmm, but
why can you explain your logic? Like because if he
(28:04):
had said, look, I don't do accents like Aussie's and
our workplace is full of Aussi's, then maybe I would
have been like, this is really bad, but I'm you
surround you surrounded yourself in that world. But no, you're
fine tochchat with Columbia but not Miss Nigeria up.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
Stop correct, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Come correct? And also calling out isn't always like be
like hey, you can't do this, just like why but why?
Sometimes it's like get them.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
Thinking understand Miss Columbia.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Sometimes I just ask her to repeat herself. So if
you don't understand Miss Nigeria, just ask Miss Nigeria to
repeat herself.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
And it's so crazy for me because like sometimes you
listen even Aussie accents, I must say, like sometimes I'll
be like what are they saying like and then it's
like I'm like is it English? And I'm like, yes,
it's English, then having to dissect. So here's the here's
the fun part. Guys.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
It's not only not only one way, right, we also
don't understand you.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
I'll never anyway. Yeah, we digress, we digress. Why do
you think it has become of great importance to have
strong allies?
Speaker 1 (29:16):
I think because we've been quiet, quiet for too long.
People have been quiet for too long, suffering for too long,
you know. I know, on a personal note, when Black
Lives Matter happened, my dad was like.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Ah, but and did you offer season?
Speaker 3 (29:30):
So like get in their spaces? So what.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Like like like obviously.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Going to be macro microaggression.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Obviously they're going to touch your hair, Like what do
you expect you are in their office, in.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Their building, you know, come back home? You know what
I mean that mentality, And like.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
He just realized that, Okay, obviously for a parents' generation
that had bigger problems like yeah, colonialism, to fight in
the Yeah, some of our I mean it was relatives
were probably also actually in the actual warfare war zones.
So they're not gonna think microagreation is a path, you
know what I mean. So it's like one of those
things where you start to think, Okay, but just because
(30:12):
it wasn't as quote unquote severe as you might think
for you comparing to you, doesn't mean it's not as
equally important. Yes, so I think it's it's and it
just showed me I actually really educated. But like, no,
the world is more global now and we people shouldn't
have to I should be able to call the cops
and not have them think not but have them want
(30:32):
to arrest me based on my skin color.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Do you know?
Speaker 1 (30:35):
I should feel safe with the cops. That's everyone should,
but everyone has a right to. So I think it's
just one of those things where you just realize that
times are changing, people are changing, and why not be
more inclusive for sure? Why not stand up for what
is right, what is humane? So I think that's why
(30:57):
it's important to have strong allies totally.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
And I also think if you know better, you got
to do better. And we just happen to know more
that part, So we got to know better and we
got to do better. Back in the day, you could
excuse it to oh, the newspapers don't report it or
they don't tell us enough about this, so I don't
have the right information about this. Ah so oh well,
but even then, let me tell you, people still protested
(31:22):
injustices things like a put daid. They protested in other
parts of the world. So it's not like allyship is
something completely new. It's just we know more. So in
knowing more, you hope we know better. Of course we
have false effake news and all that, but hopefully you'll do.
Speaker 4 (31:42):
Better, that's yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
And like why not And even on a personal level,
you know, we can't imagine lize people because of their
sexual preference, because of sexual orientation, because of the like
it seems so like why.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
What has that got to do with true? Like, that's
the thing. I mean, this is what I always say.
It's like being an ally. Sometimes something doesn't affect you,
it has nothing to do with you. It's not part
of you. Sure, but if someone that is part of
their realm, and that's how they just just let people live.
(32:17):
I don't know. I don't know how to explain it,
Like let people imagine you. Let's say you love football
and someone comes to you and it's like football is trash,
like and anyone who watches football, we're gonna, you know,
knock off, like you just be like, but it's not
a fake. Let me watch my football in peace. That's
what that's all people want. That's what they just want
(32:38):
to watch.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
It basic, right, Like Yeah, why can't I am I
right to like what sport I like or to.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Live without fear of being killed. I don't know exactly,
I'm just putting it out there.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Yeah, And I feel like sometimes when you dig deeper,
it's like, are you finding this behavior threatening?
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Is there some stuff we need to work on there?
Because why?
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Why trigger?
Speaker 3 (33:01):
Why do you?
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Why was so triggered? Why are you so triggered?
Speaker 3 (33:06):
Have you been living in the closets? And like why?
I love your life?
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Food?
Speaker 3 (33:14):
Where do you go boo and do what you need
to do? Like, no one's going to judge you.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
But I think it's like a lot of times, And
obviously religion plays a huge role because then everyone and
I mean, I'm sure a lot of the stuff happening
in Gaza as well.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Steeped in religion steeped.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
So it's like all these things that people just have
this mentality of I'm right, you're wrong, and it's like why.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
And I've been reading I've been reading The Power of
Now by ear Toll that he was talking about how
one of the biggest issues of the ego. He talks
about ego a lot in his book, and the biggest
issue of ego is that need to be right and
the inability of hearing someone else's perspective which may be
(34:00):
different to your own, and just being like, okay, you fail.
As humans too, we fail. It's always I want you
to know that I was right. The way I see
the world is right, and the way I do things
is right, and everyone should do it. It's like sometimes
it's okay, just like, wow, that's such an interesting person.
(34:22):
I literally have conversations with people and I'm like, wow,
that's such an interesting take. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Most of the times it doesn't even have to affect
your own takes. It's just like, oh it's interesting, yes,
move on, child like, but people really won't take it,
like to task if you don't agree.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Also, that energy of carrying that, it's like it's too much.
There's a lot in life. We all have a lot
going on. You don't need to carry that, you know.
So So for me, that's.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Like what was that book like the subtle art of
giving fivefucks to give today?
Speaker 3 (35:00):
I can't be giving them to you. Thanks, So why
are you forcing me?
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Like?
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Let us move on?
Speaker 3 (35:11):
But I think it's just yeah, you're right, it is ego.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
People just want to know that what they do is righteous,
good and the better person, blah blah blah, without actually
just thinking it's okay for you.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
To live and live well doing your own thing.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Yeah, it's fine. We don't have to go back and
forth about this. It's not that. It's not that pressing,
like you're making it pressing. You know, if there's something
you could change around the concept of allyship, though, what
would it be.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
I would make it mandatory for people to read multiple
resources on opposing ends of the spectrum to form an
opinion first before they start shooting their words out and
making arguing with people on the internet. Yeah, I don't
(36:02):
know if it's changing any and that's what we shouldn't do.
No fair enough.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
But in new educating yourself, you actually realize that there's
a lot of nuance with a lot of these things.
There's some stuff that's to me black and white, like
like especially with LGBTQIA rights, it's like, okay, no, let
them live, it's fine, love we want to love me.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
I'm like, what is that we need?
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Then there's some.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Stuff obviously with the wars and you know, that might
have a bit more nuance. Then there's some stuff like
with Ukraine, where you're like, but why are you coming
to someone else's sundary?
Speaker 3 (36:32):
Like you know, there's like there's.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Some stuff that's just so obvious, so obviously you have
to practice where where it lands and where it doesn't.
But I think for me a lot, I would love
to change the whole performative part of allies. Yes, like
oh I donated, Oh I did this, and it's like okay, yeah, fine,
or you post your receipts because people want to see
(36:55):
them receipts.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
But it's like, okay, but what now? What after?
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Like I think with and then we keep resorting back
to black lives no matter because I guess that one
was on a personal level when it comes to allyeship.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
But it's like people really were like, oh yeah, I'm donating.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
But I'm like, okay, now it's been five years later,
three years later, whatever, what have you done? Have you
given someone of color a platform? You know, if you
have one, have you you know? Have you done I've
actually on a personal level, change your circle. I think
there's a picture someone shared was making the runs on
the internet. Some celebrity was having like I think tea
(37:30):
or something in the Hamptons and the whole table was
full of like, well, these white actors, white writers, white
and it's like this is what Hollywood looks like. These
were the decisions are getting made. This is where you
know things are moving, and there's no body of color,
Like we're not even I'm not even talking black, I'm talking.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
In Hispanic age like it is. White is right like,
and there's nothing else.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
So it was like one of those things where it's like, Okay,
so clearly in these rooms, as Ruby spoke about before,
there is no one to represent someone who's another There's
literally no one. You're getting people deciding what we wear,
what we do, what we watch, who are not involved
and what we wear, what we do, what we watch.
(38:11):
And I think, yeah, I know nothing about it. Just
want to look at the dollar sign, you know, at
the end of everything. And I think it's like, that's
so jarring to me that we're just so performative heir
diversity inclusion all these teams here, let's do this DEI
blah blah blah.
Speaker 3 (38:26):
But it's like, Okay, what does that actually mean?
Speaker 1 (38:30):
And look like, who have you hired in a top
executive position, who's of color, who's well deserving by the way,
we're not just saying just chucking it.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
There's a lot of people out there.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
Have you've done your research, you know, and like, I
think that's why a lot of people, like even with
fashion like Edward Nifel pushing British Vogue and all these
black places you'll see because you can do this.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Yes, Dave, it's a little bit.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Harder because you've always used that same photographer for years,
but like diversify it's okay.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Yep, totally agree, one hundred percent. I think what it
is it's it's work, Yeah, exactly. Not everyone is willing
and ready to do the work or take on the work,
so hey, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
And also people don't the ego, don't want to share,
that's true.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
So it's also like, ah, that's.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
Why why should I have to I thought I thought
tooth and nail to get here. Meanwhile, it's like inheritance.
But anyway, that's another story for another day. But it's like, oh, yeah, no,
so why would I Why would I share my space
with anybody? Why would I give a voice to anyone
else when I'm enjoying the fruits of my labor?
Speaker 2 (39:44):
Totally So Mommy, Mommy and Daddy's labor anyway as women
and to bring it a bit closer to home for
ourselves as women, specifically black zimbabwe And women, that is,
how do men play a role in being good allies?
M it's real clubs.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
The way we've talked about this, the way we have
chattered about this girl, especially when you go back to
zoom and you're with your habby there or your brother
there and you're like, I know, when you're overseas you
wash these dishes? Why anting like you can't see them
dishes now? And the only way in these with patriarchy especially,
(40:27):
the only way things would change is if people in
the patriarchal society call out these changes. Of course, women
also uphold the patriarchy. That's not like, but it also
takes a man to be like.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
It's too much. Yeah, So, Amanas, you've definitely touched on
one of the issues we face as Zimbabwean women, specifically
black women. Patriarchy is a huge thing. There's a lot
of we've had in an episode around abuse. There's a
lot of that. There's class and status and all these things,
(41:08):
so much financial emotional, like there's just so I'm losing
the words. I'm just telling you so for those who
don't know what issues are being faced by black women,
and we obviously are speaking specifically as black women because
we are black women and we are from Zabwe, those
there are a lot of issues, and I think it's
the silence, the silence of men in these scenarios and
(41:33):
situations where women are suffering. Do you know I didn't
actually realize what allyship was really in terms of a
man helped or signing up for You went home for
the first time after getting married in March April, and
we love these story times. By the way, we had
(41:55):
we had a brier barbecue for for my parents. Throw
us a barbecue, and my husband and I to be like, oh,
you guys are here, so family can come see you
since the wedding, so on and so forth. And of
course in our culture, who's going to be doing the cooking?
Me as the guest is the one? Yeah, both thinker,
(42:15):
so you do the work, Oh the heck, and I'm there.
And then when it's time to serve, my mom was like, oh, sir,
for your husband, you guys surf first, be surved for
your husband, because you know that's how it's done there.
And then my husband was like, no, I can come
the dish for myself totally. And the whole time when
you saw me up and down, he was like stressed
(42:37):
because he was stressful. He was supposed to sit with
family and engage them in conversation, and I was, you know,
running around and he just kept seeing me and he's like,
are you okay? Do you need anything? And I was like,
because we know what our society is, and just for
him to say, no, I will serve myself. The wood's here,
it's easy again. That was just him saying like I
(42:59):
don't need you to labor even more for me, which
was something I appreciated, you know, him even saying that
in front of my parents. It's a big thing with
family there. Then I had a cousin whose wife had
a baby. She's taking care of this baby. He's younger
than me, by the way, and then he's like, go
dish for me to his wife. So I'm looking at
(43:21):
him like this is a this is a free for
all buffet, and he's like, no, that's why we got married, right,
And not only was she requested so because she came
and I was like, oh no, but like he can
time help himself, like the table's ready, Like it's not.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
That everything's there, everything is.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Everything is set, and then she's like, oh no. I
was told no to sir go and asked like, how
can you make him? You know, obviously you have to
be like not too like intense, but it's like, how
can you make yourself? You know, she's been with the
baby all day and he's just like, oh, that's why
we got married. And I was like, not only dishing
(44:00):
for her husband, she had a dish for her husband's brother,
younger brother too. It's just like, what in the what
in the actual I'm using a very simplified scenario to
just break down how many and I really called it.
I was like, how can you do that? No, like
(44:22):
you've got your and he's like, no, that's why I
have a wife. I was like, m and.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
Be your own because you're thinking this guy is younger
than me. He clearly you should be more quote unquote woke,
but here we are nope, pushing it, pushing pushing gender.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
He's sleeping Oma. That's just that's just been there.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
And you know what, people probably were looking at Tom
like that Tom is checked, so obviously that's why he'd
be doing this Like you know, if it was a
fellow zimbabwe and man, the question then becomes, do you
have enough cahunas to stand up for your wife and
be like, ah, you know, I do the dishes at home.
I can do the dishes. Yeah, Like yep, it's exactly problem.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
Exactly, so it's we could go on. I think it
really it really confuses me because I'm like, it's so confusing.
We were educated the same for the most part. People
were global minded to some degree. Obviously it depends on
you know, situation, circumstance. We all have access to the internet.
(45:26):
We're all trying to play a part. I was so confused,
and it's I think what hurts and I think it
ultimately why it affects me. I think it really hurts
as a black woman to see black men being quiet
when black women suffer. And I'm not saying.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
It's the ultimately, it's the ultimate hard Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
Yeah, I think it's not that we want you to
now or whatever. Like we understand there's a whole history
and it's hard to like and do a lot of that,
but to carry your plate or to offer to help
with I don't know how to explain it. There's just yeah,
you know what, I should think.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
It's so deep because there's a lot of and I'm
sure at some point we're going to have a whole
episode or centered around this because there's a lot of
self hate attached there, because it's like, sometimes it feels
like black men will treat any other race decent but us.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
You know, my mom was strong, so you'll be strong.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
But I'm not a quiet rath like you know, I'm
a fellow sister who uphold me, uplift me the same
way I want to uphold and uplift you. And I
feel like we then race races. Sometimes a lot of
times you notice and we're digressing here, but hey, just
come with us. Yes, a lot of times you you
notice that we are very especially when it comes to
(46:52):
a black man. It feels as if they're complimentary of
everyone else but us.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
They treat everyone else.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
And sometimes you see this guy in a soft life
with the with the twy honey, and then I was
like you was like, no, you're being treated like this. Yeah,
why can't you just be as soft as you are?
But obviously there's a lot of, as you said, things,
we have to learn their history and this whole I
have to be the strong black man and lead my family.
(47:19):
And I think that's more so when it's black on black,
you know, And it's it's heartbreaking to not be loved
and nurtured.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
In your own home and surrounds.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
Before you go elsewhere, you know, so you can be like,
I understand why people not understand, but you can see
people due to ignorance or whatever, might not appreciate me,
but you you know me, you should love me, and
I appreciate you know, yeah too.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
And yeah, it's it's it's really heartbreak. It's something that
I think I'm trying to wrap my head around in
a lot of ways because it's like, yeah, if we
can't like each other up.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
How we women in the world and who will Yeah,
because all the other men also look at us, but
your own men don't appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
Yeah, so yeah, And I know it's almost there's a
whole argument women, you don't do this or whatever, But
I don't know. I don't. I don't know. Maybe because
I'm a woman, I don't buy it, because, as you said,
the ability to support and be there for a woman
of a different hue or whatever compared to or background,
(48:29):
compared to you. It's really disheartening.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
And sometimes it's not even about a love relationship. It's
even like siblings. You know, a lot of times my
brothers tender mosha. We we've gone to the royal areas.
They have to push for me, like no, no, no, Amanda'll
harp you get the bucket and get the water.
Speaker 3 (48:46):
We all grow. We're all in this because you all.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
Know this too, you know.
Speaker 1 (48:52):
So it's like it's not but I'm not even talking
about like you know that's romantic club is another step.
But even just your own brother helping you in the
morning to get tea for everybody to do this, to
do that, it's just like, be my ally, help me.
You know, this is a struggle. I'm not I don't
have to be strong twenty for seven, especially with my
(49:14):
own family, Like can I not be vulnerable here?
Speaker 2 (49:18):
If I can't be vulnerable, we know they're like thinking
Rooney is watching New Slave Aways.
Speaker 1 (49:26):
So sometimes even like you just got to commend men,
black men, black Zimbabwean men who are willing to fight
the status quo, who are willing to question it even
let's not even fight this is question, Like there's twenty guys,
yeah and two girls. We expect those two girls to
give everybody their bucket.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
For like to wash hands or whatever.
Speaker 3 (49:46):
Yeah, yeah, be ages them.
Speaker 1 (49:48):
Okay, all the young guns go and get my bucket,
like you know ye to be another aspect that's not
just women do everything for sure. Notes because you're sitting
on top, right, So who wants to just while saying
for who wants to share when you're on top, who
wants to go back and lift someone out?
Speaker 2 (50:04):
Clearly nobody And that brings it so much more into
perspective to say, this is why we need allies because
it's like it's so comfortable and you need to get
a little bit uncomfortable for you to actually help. And
I think what people don't realize. It's like it's like
(50:25):
someone must lose for me to win. But it's like
what if we all win? And if you push it forward.
Imagine you're pushing forward and society benefits as a whole,
like you become I don't know, And I honestly think
speaking of the you know, black men black women scenario,
I think black women were revered back in the day,
(50:50):
but then I think with colonialism and the introduction of
all these ideas of patriarchy. It shifted things to being
almost like women as an asset or something to do things.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
And also I feel like as a skate knowledge right,
because these men were being disrespected because you listen, I
could only take it home. I could only take my
anger home, you know, because it workout to be as bass.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
Yes, So now when I'm home, I can beat up
on you. I can get all that anger and frustration
out out. Yeah, so we're not denying that. That's why
we were saying so much to work through, you know,
But we's just like, can we work though? Yeah, next
time you go move out to your sister, please just
say something.
Speaker 3 (51:31):
Please just go help me with something, just please. You
already got to sleep in.
Speaker 2 (51:37):
Yeah that wake up early, brah.
Speaker 4 (51:41):
And then they're just like you are already swathing. I mean,
could try and actually you help me with the tear.
Do something, just a little small steps.
Speaker 1 (51:51):
Somebody asking you to do slave away, but it's a
little bring your plate after you eat.
Speaker 2 (51:56):
Just bring a plate. Let's start there, guys, very simple.
Let's just bring the plate. That's it.
Speaker 3 (52:01):
We're clearly very triggered.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
But yeah, oh my gosh, it's such a layered topic
and there's so many aspects to it, and I guess
you just wanted people to question within themselves. Allies ship
their thoughts, and I think a lot of times when
you're like, I think it happened in America where they
had Black Lives Matter and they felt like other people
(52:26):
of color supported Germen, stop Asian hate started.
Speaker 2 (52:29):
There's a lot of talk about African.
Speaker 1 (52:31):
Americans not pulling up to help Asian. So I think
a lot of times as well, even within our own communities, Yes,
I'm already marginalized, but I can still for someone else,
you know, because because again you should understand because you
also sometimes go through it in your way. And I
guess we just wanted to have an episode where we
honor all the people doing the hard work out there
(52:54):
in these closed rooms, behind closed doors, we see, we
love you and keep going please.
Speaker 2 (53:02):
And the conspiracy theorists in me is like they don't
want us to support each other because they know powerful too. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
You know, my dad and I actually have gone to
depth talking about this. Tribalism was back back in the
back back day. People used to actually some people there
were different tribes used to share things and do batter trading.
Then on colonism came was like, oh, that tribe and
then people started going against each other, try bullying each
other and exactly, and whilst you're busy doing that, I
(53:33):
can come and take over. So really there's layers to this.
Speaker 2 (53:38):
Don't let them win, guys, don't let them wind.
Speaker 3 (53:45):
We're gonna be getting the DS.
Speaker 2 (53:48):
Just my theory on life conspiracy theorists. I think I
got a lot of that from my dad.
Speaker 1 (53:54):
Just conspiracy theories anyway, but you gotta deep your dad
was onto something.
Speaker 2 (54:00):
Always. What's our zim shout out for this episode? Room?
So our zim shout out quite befitting is zimbabwe And
born Stephanie Travis, who is deputy team principal of Lewis
Hamilton's Extreme E team X four four Vida Carbon Racing.
Oh that was a mufful before that, she spent three
(54:22):
years working with the Mercedes F one team. We just
wanted to shout out her for making waves and spaces
where women don't often get a chance to shine. Stephanie
travers at Stephanie Travis as her handle and talking about allyship. Essentially,
Lewis Hamilton of her and she's not the only woman
on his team, I think is really really what it
(54:46):
is to bring them in, open the door, allow them
into these spaces, and that's what he did. So shout
out to her and being in an unconventional field, in
an unconventional space as a woman. I know there are
a lot of more women who are now into Formula one.
I know Amanda's a fan of watching one, so you know,
(55:07):
it's shout out to that. I'm not quite there, but
I can appreciate the speed we can edit. Being Zimbabwean bra,
that's the extra flavor on top of that. Yes, exactly, exactly,
So shout out to you Stephanie Travis for what you're doing.
Keep shining and guys, we just hope this episode was helpful.
It's a complex topic. This is why we do this
(55:29):
podcast actually is to discuss these very layered topics which
are not straightforward, but we strongly believe in talking about things,
we start thinking about things, and starting to think about things,
we start to find ways to shift and change and
discuss them with others too. Yeah for sure. Yeah, thank
you so much, Amanda, Thank you all for listening. You
(55:50):
know we're on all the socials.
Speaker 1 (55:52):
Just find our website and our website on your website.
Speaker 2 (55:56):
Okay, anyway, thank you so much, thank for listening, thank
you and for your time. And we'll catch you guys
on the next one. Take care bye. We'll use your hand.
Speaker 3 (56:08):
They will tear you up.
Speaker 2 (56:10):
Lack a paper two. Oh no no no, yeah yeah
yeah yeah
I'm always always, sir, be careful love.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Those um books. Let well use your head. They will
tear you lack a purple talk. Oh no, no, no, yeah,
yeah yeah yeah, oh no no no. Hi. I'm Amanda
(00:40):
and I'm Rumby.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Welcome to its lay It.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
We're in a long distance friendship that started over twenty
years ago when we were in high school.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
We'll be talking about all things life, love, family, anything
and everything else under the sun.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Delve deeper with us because in life, you know my layers.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Oh no, no, no, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Welcome to another episode of It's Layered Podcast. What I Do,
What I do, What I do? Good?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, somebody we need to find that sound
I know, asked DJ it kicks or something and just like.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
A salad because apps all the time, honey, it defeats
the purpose. Anyway. How are you doing, Amanda?
Speaker 3 (01:30):
I'm good, my love.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
How are you? How are you? Yo? Girl? We could
go on, we could write a novel. I'm doing alright,
surviving winter monthsA here like it's great, gloomy trying to
I'm that vitamin d intake and just the little sunshine
we get.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
So I don't know if I envy you guys, Like
I mean, I love I love European Christmas or like
I should say more than Hemisphere Christmas.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
With the cold, the snow, that that whole.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
But I love it.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
But to actually live it, it's like, okay, no, I
like to visit and leave and leave.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
I don't want to be like seeing the build up.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Yeah, the build up is that's what breaks you because
you see these days. I think at like for for
thirty now or just before four thirty, it's black, like
it's dark outside, like pitch black.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
So and meanwhile we're recording now and it's meant to
be my evening and it's like some obviously, so it's
still light outside, trying to put a child down when
it's just like you'd be looking at you like are
you crazy?
Speaker 3 (02:33):
It's like are you there? There's no winning in life.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
You need to know there's no winning.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
To pick your battles, use your yeah, and speaking about that,
which is so apt for our episode today, our episode
on ally ship.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Yeah, how do you define ally ship? So that'st word,
very big buzz word. I decided to let me use
the dictionary. Okay, it's dictionary. It okay, So according to
the Cambridge English Dictionary, it's allyship is the quality or
practice of helping or supporting other people who are part
of a group that is treated badly or unfairly, although
(03:09):
you are not yourself a member of this group. One
of the most important ways to practice allyship is just
to listen. I thought that was quite a.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Again for the people on the back, just to listen.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Just to listen. One of the most important ways to
practice allyship is just to listen. So just listening, close
your mouth and open your ears and listen. Actually, so,
I think that's a definition that was given and I
thought it was really I need I say more.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
That's now you've just yeah, I guess that's just nailed it.
I mean, I guess the only thing in our to
make it more like less dictionary is just that it's
obviously come up in the last couple of years. It's
a concept that's probably always exists, but it's actually now
(04:01):
got terms and all these things around it, you know,
and some people do it naturally and semple I've had
to learn to do it. So I think that's the
only thing with allyship that is like something that I
think future from now on and future generations.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
It's just going to be part of living.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Yes, really yes, because I think for some time there
was just no awareness or understanding of the need. You know,
they say that if you don't have the word for
a term or something you need, it's hard to feel like,
how can you actually get the support.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
To conceptualize and sexualize?
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Now that we have the vocabulary, it helps and will
help build stronger forms of allyship and so on and
so forth. So it's really interesting. So of course a
man has already spoken about how it's become a topic
that's come up more and more over the last couple
of years, after social movements such as Black Lives Matter,
(04:59):
Stop Asian Hate or advocating for the lgbt QUI plus community,
as well as we've seen the wars in Gaza and Ukraine. Yo,
how do allies play a role? Like actually just listing
those and in the last few years it's right, wild,
(05:19):
okay wild, But how do allies play a role actually
in these scenarios and situations?
Speaker 1 (05:27):
I think the way you first described it, that is
like rallying and advocating for a group of people that
you're not a part of, yes, who have been marginalized
essentially right, So all those social movements, I mean that
you've mentioned the wars happening that you've mentioned, We're obviously
not there. I'm obviously not of Asian descent all those things.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Hence we need to show up, right.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
That's that's the that's the I think it was Rihanna
who said, no, tell all your white friends pull up pully,
want to put they want to have dinner with you
and and love your culture, blah blah blah, talk about it.
And I think that is how allies play a role,
Like not only are we listening intently, we're now also
(06:12):
educating ourselves on the right stuff. And that's now we're
also taking action as well, Like then what And I
feel like it's so it's a tricky thing social media
because like, in some ways people want to know where
you stand, where you do this, But I feel like
it's such a personal role or maybe in my life
I've had to like break it down to day to
(06:34):
day things, like are they moments when I can be
an ally in the situation for sure?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
I don't know for sure. It's definitely tricky And I
think you hit the nail on the head when you
say that educate yourself. I think during Black Lives Matter,
for us as black people, it was obviously quite It
affected us a lot. Yes, we know we're not black
American because some people brought that up. You're not you
know it's happening in America. But it's like, we know
(07:05):
what it means to be black. If you're black, you're black,
you're black. If you're black here, you're black there, you're
black everywhere. I'm sorry, there's no sort of differentiation. And
when people are like, but why and wanting you to
explain all these things, and it actually gets exhausting for
the person in that community experiencing that. So that the
Asian who's experiencing Asian hate, people in the lgbtq I
(07:28):
A plus community who are being marginalized, they're tired of
having to explain how they're being killed off, how in
Uganda it's illegal, and you know they are afraid of
their lives. Do you understand what I'm saying? Definitely, I'm
I'm dealing with and trying to persist it internally for
myself and now you want me to break it down
(07:51):
for you. And usually people who ask that come across
with an ignorant mindset, like they're not wanting it's just like, oh,
but why is it an issue? You know, and it's
very why is it a problem? Why is it a problem? Yes?
Speaker 1 (08:06):
And I think also in this year of twenty twenty three,
twenty twenty four plus we got the internet.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Yeah, it's like what why are you asking me?
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Like there's people who've done research articles on this, you
can explain the whole history, reliable resources you can use
to find out the history of what's going on. Yes,
you know, and I think like even like and try
to think of even in Australia now with what's happening
in Gaza, and it's like Palestine Israel, which side and
then you find out that the history on both ends
(08:37):
is so layered, So okay, but let's not even But
then there's also that whole thing with ceasefire, Like as
much as the history is there and whoever thinks they
write things, they're right, But at the same time, it's
like you there's people dying who are.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Innocently part of this as well.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
So it's like all these things where it's like, Okay,
you need to just really find an independent resource we
can really go through everything, and you still have to
use your judgment to realize, Okay, what am I what's next?
And I feel like a lot of times people just
want to be told like this is right, this is wrong, yes,
And I think allyship really pushes you to be like, no,
(09:17):
it's your own journey, like you think, what do you
think sounds right?
Speaker 2 (09:22):
You know for sure? For sure? I completely agree. And
part of it too, and I don't know, maybe we'll
go into this later, but I think part of it
too is taking a step back from what you're seeing
on social media and all the buzzwords and this person
saying you have to do you really need to take
a step back from you know, other opinion and take
(09:44):
a moment to formulate your own informed yeah, keyword informed opinion.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Yeah, and also give yourself space to say I don't know.
So I feel like with social media, especially when something happens,
people are so quick to post on their stories or whatever,
whichever side they support or don't support or and yeah,
in one way, that's great, but it's like, okay, but
have you processed this enough to come from a space
(10:11):
where you knew nothing about this to now enough for
you to have such a strong stance whatever side yes,
So I think that's just one makes it tough because like,
do you actually know exactly? Yeah, yeah, any situations that
you feel allies make things worse.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Oh, so many, so many. I think allies can make
it worse one when their opinion, well, they develop an
opinion shaped with misinformation. Absolutely, I think just in general
as humans, we cause problems when you are misinformed. I
think too when sometimes aggression you know or I don't know,
(10:54):
causing beef or wanting to fight. Yes, of course we
appreciate you stuff for us and supporting us, but sometimes
the message doesn't get across. I'll give you this example.
You know, we all heard about all lives matter, you know,
when people that that conversation, and the issue with that is,
(11:18):
you know, people are saying, yes, but we all matter,
and it's like putting yourself in the shoes of the
one being suffering someone who's having a hard time, and saying,
but also me trying to put yourself here. Yes, you
don't even need to you don't need to be in
the equation. It's about empathy. What you need to understand
is allyship is about empathy. I may not understand fully,
(11:41):
I may not have experienced anything similar to this. However,
I'm here for you. What can I do? Not you
assuming what you can do? I e. Being aggressive people
are going during the protests and causing scenes or creating chaos,
or do you understand what I'm saying. There's so many
way where you make it about yourself. I think the
key thing is when people make it about themselves. We
(12:05):
the progression that you need. What an ally should be
doing is saying, you know, in certain rooms, when you're
at dinner with similar people who may not understand what
exactly is happening in gaza or so on and so forth,
you can be the person who says, actually, you know
the reason why X y Z is because ABC? Do
you undersund like giving them the information so that me,
(12:27):
as the one who's marginalized or suffering, doesn't have to
be like, oh but you know this. This this is
easier people. It's more palatable when it comes from someone
who looks like yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
And also to offer different perspectives. I find a lot
of times in these rooms they're trying to make its
trivialize it right, like ah.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
Why are they even stressing about that?
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Like you know, and it's like have you ever folt,
how we feel if this and that happened to you.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
No, so.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
You know, and I feel like a lot of times,
especially here with immigration issues, you know, you got people
who there's this whole theory of your jumping the queue,
like they call them boat people, people who come on
a boat as opposed to like applying from a detention
center overseas.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Or for asylum or whatever.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Okay, obviously, once you come over on a boat, you're
already here. So now that you have to like pretty
much something people yeah, see it as a fast track
to get in, and then there's this whole thing about it,
like people were very opinionated about it.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
But it's like have you ever thought how desperate.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
One must be to get a little boat, right, to
like seek a better life? And like, yes, of course
the system is broken, we already know that, but it's
like such a wide up. And I think that's where
the word empathy, as you said, comes in, because it's like, Okay,
don't make it such such a broad thing. That's why
I think I think allyship needs to be very singular.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
And you you.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Decide do you think that sounds right yes or not?
And what do you do about it? How are you listening,
how are you providing a voice if you can? Yes,
and for everything as well.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
I was gonna say, sometimes you need to know when
you don't need to say anything. It's like I cannot
I don't have the information, I don't have the ability
because there are a lot of causes to if I
and they stay coming up and speaking to a point
actually about do you know what it's like to have
to hop on a boat to make your way to
(14:22):
another country to seek asylum? If anyone has not yet,
you should watch The Swimmers on Netflix. That film will
give you a great sort of understanding of what it
means for all these immigrants who are escaping wars and
you know, difficulties back home, even in Europe. You know,
there's been a lot of talk about illegal immigration, which
(14:44):
is a whole other but when you're just seeing it
as with humanity in your heart, it changes how your
perspective on how how things done and how hard it
must be. Brutal, Yes, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
And we already know that living in the sport, but
there's another level.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
It's another level, yeah, another anyway, So watch that if
you haven't. But do you think you're a strong. Ally,
this is.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
A quot.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Because I don't know.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
I literally as you said that to you girl, you
put me on the chopping blog. Yeah, it's literally, I
don't know. I would like to think I am. I
would like to think I am learning to become become one.
I would like to think that. One thing I definitely
know that came out of Black Lives Matter for me
(15:42):
personally was that if you're silent, you're complicit, not silent
as in you're listening. Listening silence is different because that's
when you're like educating yourself. But like when something happens
and you have the power or the space to speak
up and you don't because you're like too high to
awkward in most cases, then we are also complicit because
(16:04):
your silence makes it seem like it's okay and that
person should be added. So I think I have learned
that my voice, even if it's a quiet, meek voice,
it's it's it's important as well, right, because a lot
of times people will see things and it's like and
when someone speaks up, everyone's yeah, like if I'm thinking
the same thing.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Because we are human, we do all.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Feel the same things, and like most times and then
like I feel like I've learned that and I think
I'm still I'm realizing that allyship is a journey and
it's not said and done like Okay, I was an ally,
it stop Asian hate, I'm done.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
It's back.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Like it's like there's so many things that we need
to I don't know, human levels usually actually daily that
we need to be calling things out.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
And I was going to ask you to ask you
do you think it's only about the posting? Hey, you
guys need to know that x y Z is is
that if you don't post, you're not an ally or
if you don't say hey you guys, do you understand
like on a public sade?
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yeah, I think you know what, This is a tricky
one because I do think when you have a huge platform,
your voice matters. So like you know, you see on
a KIMK and you know, they post pretty quickly when
things happen because they almost have to in a way,
they have to because they have to show that. And
also and that's yeah, if there's such a word, because
(17:38):
it's like okay, then now you start to think, Okay,
what are you actually standing for?
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Study you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (17:42):
But at the same time, if they don't say anything,
it's such a problem. So it's like I don't envy celebrities,
so my my, in my everyday life. I don't think
you're forced to do anything that you're not that's not
coming from the heart, you know. I think you have
to be honest with yourself and honest the people are
(18:04):
trying to uphold and uplift in that moment. It's not
about you, as you said, so why and if you
feel the urge to to obviously talk about it and
to help and to post, and you have the correct resources,
then yeah, reliable resources, then why not. But if you're
still in a moment of learning, a moment of education,
(18:27):
then maybe premature to really.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
So it's like it's so dependent. What do you think
I think. I think it is very dependent. And I
think sometimes the strong form of allyship is in the
closed within closed doors, and I've seen it personally in
rooms where people have these opinions and then to be
(18:50):
able to actually use your voice and say, actually, I
don't think that's so correct, or actually it's actually harder
than just posting that on So I will tell yeah,
for free, I will tell you this. It is so
much harder to be in a room where you have
people who probably look like you or believe the same
same values, that have the same values that you do,
(19:13):
and they bring up something that may seem sort of
is left fields, especially if you consider yourself an ally
and having to say no, actually, I don't think that's correct,
or have you ever considered that? So there's actually sometimes
more power of influence in those spaces. So I just
want people to know that it's not always about Yes.
(19:36):
Of course, if you have a platform and can share,
do so. Sometimes I think we are scared to share
because we don't know. There's a lot of information going around.
Am I sharing the right thing in the right way,
especially when a buzzy topic.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Yeah, you don't have time to educate a buzzy topic
you might not know lots about exactly.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
And that's why sometimes it's good to take a step back,
take a moment, to do what you need to do
to figure out.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
That's just like that Empire dude, which do you remember
the sorry story time the Empire guy?
Speaker 3 (20:08):
I forget what just small letter?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
I think, oh, yes, all the celebrities were like he
was attacked.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
I know, Jersey, he's innocent.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Jersey's in the Nigerian dudes were like a man you
were paid to paid those posts of support because the
initial thing was he had been it was a hate
crime and he had been attacked. And I think the
thing was stand with Jesse. So it's like that's the
thing as well with posting, because you got both talk
(20:40):
quick to far stored out.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
So edumate yourself. You gotta edumacate yourself to Speaking of edumacation,
you know when we talk about the right resources, Sorry,
I'm really digressing. It's just because what are the right resources?
Because we recently had this conversation We're talking about the
war and the conflict in Gaza, and we're like, okay,
(21:10):
what are the informed resources, especially for things like war,
because war is genders on every side. Every side, someone
will tell you what they want you and put it
in a way you want to hear. Will they want
you to hear it, and someone else will come and
give it to you in a way that you want
to hear it. It's personal disclaiment. I want to say,
(21:32):
I get very triggered by reading the news. I'm very
all the time. It's a very hard thing for me
to do. I typically will be like, Okay, this keeps
coming up, and then headlines and then eventually I'll be like,
let me do my research. But I'm not someone who's
like quick fast, like yeah, let's hear what's more So,
(21:53):
it's very triggering. So if you're someone who feels like
I have a very difficult time with reading the news
in general.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
The empathy level was on one hundred room big, I
feel it's hard. It's tough as well, because let's not
to get even deeper into it, let's not lie that
the media is media is controlled by certain entities. So
when you're even if you say I'm going to watch
CNN or BBC, somebody's paying them checks march and they
(22:22):
have a certain they have a certain image American Well yeah, exactly.
So it's like I remember, even for Zimbabwe, there was
a time when I had to like grow a lot
of respect for our Jazerra because it felt like when
they reported our news about Zimbabwe, it was like the
real thing that's going on, and they will show you
both sides and literally decide, you know what I mean,
(22:43):
where As like BBC was doing it, you ain't know Gabi.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Was in trouble, like it was just gab is the
worst thing ever?
Speaker 1 (22:49):
There was no nuance to it, Yes, because obviously all
the white farmers are being kicked out, so BBC just
you know, So it's like you really have to.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
I think that's where you have to practice your coming sense.
And maybe this is where this common sense is not
so common, but.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Yes it's not. And I think that's where discussions play
a pivotal role. Okay, this is what the media is saying,
is what that outlet is saying. But like you know,
can I hear from someone on the ground or can
I what more can I find out about this situation?
And you just have to go Sometimes you just have to.
As you said before, you don't have to say anything.
(23:24):
You can just be absorbing, absorbing and.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
Just say no.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Look again, I'm in a space of I don't know.
I'm still taking it all in because yeah, how do
you trust?
Speaker 2 (23:35):
How do you honestly? And also in your media outlets,
it's also personalities, media personalities and all that. Be careful.
It's hard. There's no there's no answer. Basically, the answer
to that question is there's you need to forget figure
it out, figure it out, apply your is that your
(23:59):
brain is that what theta.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
Yes, use your.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Exactly you know this.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
So what allieship is?
Speaker 1 (24:09):
There's action we spoke a there's listening, there's learning, and
then there's yielding. So I think yielding is more to
do with oh, okay, maybe I don't quite know as
much on this topic, or okay, I need to get
back on that, or you know, so, how do you
think we can adopt each of these to become better allies?
Speaker 2 (24:27):
It's a really good, uh, really good question. And I
think for me, action we've spoken about already quite a bit,
whether we're learning when to speak up and again I
will reiterate sometimes speaking up is in those uncomfortable space.
I think I've had to do this too many times.
That's why it's like I'm just like, yeah, are you
doing it? But speaking up? Listening, I think it's as
(24:53):
we saw from the Cambridge Dictionary, definition being one of
the most important parts and listening with our prejudgment prejudice
to listen for what it is and hear that person's
point of view and then apply your medulla oblongata to
make a you know, informed, you know decision we spoke about,
(25:17):
which is reading multiple resources. Also, history is a great
way to learn beyond just like the news saying this
is what's happened is well, but if you can go
back to the history of that culture, of those people
of that country or that area, it's also very informative
(25:37):
because it's like it gives you a greater perspective like, oh,
we've been done, We've done been dealing with this, you know,
even history in the sense for example, Biblical history with
the issue of Gaza, with the issue like there's so
many beyond just what is current affairs looking back and
(25:57):
then yielding. I think A Manda said did so well
when she said, sometimes you have to be like, you know, here,
I don't have enough for me to form an opinion
that is capable of moving things forward positively in some
positive direction. You know, maybe I need to take a
(26:18):
step back and just say I don't know. I'm here
for you to listen. And also yielding could be how
can I help you in terms of removing self and
saying yes, I must tell them how to do this?
How what do you need? How do you need me
to stand up for you and support you?
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Yeah, yeah, it's so funny you say that because I remember,
like another story it was just becoming story time.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
She just have done this episode a story time.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
But like, like literally, I remember we were hiring a
lady of African descent. I'm not gonna, in fact Nigerian.
Why am I gonna actually like, I'm just gonna say it,
just a Nigerian. And then we have some American ladies
at our work as well, and one of them is Colombian.
So like, the accents are coming in thick and fast
from all over the world, right, and like our hi
(27:08):
manager after interviewing her because I don't quite understand her,
and I was like, oh, but you understand the quity downstairs.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
We's Columbian.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Then you know looks, you know, because Colombians are known
to be really good looking as united so many times.
So like but it's just like that, like sometimes even
the ally ship is in showing someone else their own prettages. Like,
you know, we can't really use accents as like a
way to hire or fire someone one two if you
(27:41):
accept this person with this accent, that one with an
accent like open the doors, you know, just because the
other one the quity ptuity doesn't mean that, you know.
So it's like I find a lot of times I've
had to have those where it's not like I guess
it's like calling out right because it's like, hmm, but
why can you explain your logic? Like because if he
(28:04):
had said, look, I don't do accents like Aussie's and
our workplace is full of Aussi's, then maybe I would
have been like, this is really bad, but I'm you
surround you surrounded yourself in that world. But no, you're
fine tochchat with Columbia but not Miss Nigeria up.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
Stop correct, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Come correct? And also calling out isn't always like be
like hey, you can't do this, just like why but why?
Sometimes it's like get them.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
Thinking understand Miss Columbia.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Sometimes I just ask her to repeat herself. So if
you don't understand Miss Nigeria, just ask Miss Nigeria to
repeat herself.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
And it's so crazy for me because like sometimes you
listen even Aussie accents, I must say, like sometimes I'll
be like what are they saying like and then it's
like I'm like is it English? And I'm like, yes,
it's English, then having to dissect. So here's the here's
the fun part. Guys.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
It's not only not only one way, right, we also
don't understand you.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
I'll never anyway. Yeah, we digress, we digress. Why do
you think it has become of great importance to have
strong allies?
Speaker 1 (29:16):
I think because we've been quiet, quiet for too long.
People have been quiet for too long, suffering for too long,
you know. I know, on a personal note, when Black
Lives Matter happened, my dad was like.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Ah, but and did you offer season?
Speaker 3 (29:30):
So like get in their spaces? So what.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Like like like obviously.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Going to be macro microaggression.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Obviously they're going to touch your hair, Like what do
you expect you are in their office, in.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Their building, you know, come back home? You know what
I mean that mentality, And like.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
He just realized that, Okay, obviously for a parents' generation
that had bigger problems like yeah, colonialism, to fight in
the Yeah, some of our I mean it was relatives
were probably also actually in the actual warfare war zones.
So they're not gonna think microagreation is a path, you
know what I mean. So it's like one of those
things where you start to think, Okay, but just because
(30:12):
it wasn't as quote unquote severe as you might think
for you comparing to you, doesn't mean it's not as
equally important. Yes, so I think it's it's and it
just showed me I actually really educated. But like, no,
the world is more global now and we people shouldn't
have to I should be able to call the cops
and not have them think not but have them want
(30:32):
to arrest me based on my skin color.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Do you know?
Speaker 1 (30:35):
I should feel safe with the cops. That's everyone should,
but everyone has a right to. So I think it's
just one of those things where you just realize that
times are changing, people are changing, and why not be
more inclusive for sure? Why not stand up for what
is right, what is humane? So I think that's why
(30:57):
it's important to have strong allies totally.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
And I also think if you know better, you got
to do better. And we just happen to know more
that part, So we got to know better and we
got to do better. Back in the day, you could
excuse it to oh, the newspapers don't report it or
they don't tell us enough about this, so I don't
have the right information about this. Ah so oh well,
but even then, let me tell you, people still protested
(31:22):
injustices things like a put daid. They protested in other
parts of the world. So it's not like allyship is
something completely new. It's just we know more. So in
knowing more, you hope we know better. Of course we
have false effake news and all that, but hopefully you'll do.
Speaker 4 (31:42):
Better, that's yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
And like why not And even on a personal level,
you know, we can't imagine lize people because of their
sexual preference, because of sexual orientation, because of the like
it seems so like why.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
What has that got to do with true? Like, that's
the thing. I mean, this is what I always say.
It's like being an ally. Sometimes something doesn't affect you,
it has nothing to do with you. It's not part
of you. Sure, but if someone that is part of
their realm, and that's how they just just let people live.
(32:17):
I don't know. I don't know how to explain it,
Like let people imagine you. Let's say you love football
and someone comes to you and it's like football is trash,
like and anyone who watches football, we're gonna, you know,
knock off, like you just be like, but it's not
a fake. Let me watch my football in peace. That's
what that's all people want. That's what they just want
(32:38):
to watch.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
It basic, right, Like Yeah, why can't I am I
right to like what sport I like or to.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Live without fear of being killed. I don't know exactly,
I'm just putting it out there.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Yeah, And I feel like sometimes when you dig deeper,
it's like, are you finding this behavior threatening?
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Is there some stuff we need to work on there?
Because why?
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Why trigger?
Speaker 3 (33:01):
Why do you?
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Why was so triggered? Why are you so triggered?
Speaker 3 (33:06):
Have you been living in the closets? And like why?
I love your life?
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Food?
Speaker 3 (33:14):
Where do you go boo and do what you need
to do? Like, no one's going to judge you.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
But I think it's like a lot of times, And
obviously religion plays a huge role because then everyone and
I mean, I'm sure a lot of the stuff happening
in Gaza as well.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Steeped in religion steeped.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
So it's like all these things that people just have
this mentality of I'm right, you're wrong, and it's like why.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
And I've been reading I've been reading The Power of
Now by ear Toll that he was talking about how
one of the biggest issues of the ego. He talks
about ego a lot in his book, and the biggest
issue of ego is that need to be right and
the inability of hearing someone else's perspective which may be
(34:00):
different to your own, and just being like, okay, you fail.
As humans too, we fail. It's always I want you
to know that I was right. The way I see
the world is right, and the way I do things
is right, and everyone should do it. It's like sometimes
it's okay, just like, wow, that's such an interesting person.
(34:22):
I literally have conversations with people and I'm like, wow,
that's such an interesting take. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Most of the times it doesn't even have to affect
your own takes. It's just like, oh it's interesting, yes,
move on, child like, but people really won't take it,
like to task if you don't agree.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Also, that energy of carrying that, it's like it's too much.
There's a lot in life. We all have a lot
going on. You don't need to carry that, you know.
So So for me, that's.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Like what was that book like the subtle art of
giving fivefucks to give today?
Speaker 3 (35:00):
I can't be giving them to you. Thanks, So why
are you forcing me?
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Like?
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Let us move on?
Speaker 3 (35:11):
But I think it's just yeah, you're right, it is ego.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
People just want to know that what they do is righteous,
good and the better person, blah blah blah, without actually
just thinking it's okay for you.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
To live and live well doing your own thing.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Yeah, it's fine. We don't have to go back and
forth about this. It's not that. It's not that pressing,
like you're making it pressing. You know, if there's something
you could change around the concept of allyship, though, what
would it be.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
I would make it mandatory for people to read multiple
resources on opposing ends of the spectrum to form an
opinion first before they start shooting their words out and
making arguing with people on the internet. Yeah, I don't
(36:02):
know if it's changing any and that's what we shouldn't do.
No fair enough.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
But in new educating yourself, you actually realize that there's
a lot of nuance with a lot of these things.
There's some stuff that's to me black and white, like
like especially with LGBTQIA rights, it's like, okay, no, let
them live, it's fine, love we want to love me.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
I'm like, what is that we need?
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Then there's some.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Stuff obviously with the wars and you know, that might
have a bit more nuance. Then there's some stuff like
with Ukraine, where you're like, but why are you coming
to someone else's sundary?
Speaker 3 (36:32):
Like you know, there's like there's.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Some stuff that's just so obvious, so obviously you have
to practice where where it lands and where it doesn't.
But I think for me a lot, I would love
to change the whole performative part of allies. Yes, like
oh I donated, Oh I did this, and it's like okay, yeah, fine,
or you post your receipts because people want to see
(36:55):
them receipts.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
But it's like, okay, but what now? What after?
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Like I think with and then we keep resorting back
to black lives no matter because I guess that one
was on a personal level when it comes to allyeship.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
But it's like people really were like, oh yeah, I'm donating.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
But I'm like, okay, now it's been five years later,
three years later, whatever, what have you done? Have you
given someone of color a platform? You know, if you
have one, have you you know? Have you done I've
actually on a personal level, change your circle. I think
there's a picture someone shared was making the runs on
the internet. Some celebrity was having like I think tea
(37:30):
or something in the Hamptons and the whole table was
full of like, well, these white actors, white writers, white
and it's like this is what Hollywood looks like. These
were the decisions are getting made. This is where you
know things are moving, and there's no body of color,
Like we're not even I'm not even talking black, I'm talking.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
In Hispanic age like it is. White is right like,
and there's nothing else.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
So it was like one of those things where it's like, Okay,
so clearly in these rooms, as Ruby spoke about before,
there is no one to represent someone who's another There's
literally no one. You're getting people deciding what we wear,
what we do, what we watch, who are not involved
and what we wear, what we do, what we watch.
(38:11):
And I think, yeah, I know nothing about it. Just
want to look at the dollar sign, you know, at
the end of everything. And I think it's like, that's
so jarring to me that we're just so performative heir
diversity inclusion all these teams here, let's do this DEI
blah blah blah.
Speaker 3 (38:26):
But it's like, Okay, what does that actually mean?
Speaker 1 (38:30):
And look like, who have you hired in a top
executive position, who's of color, who's well deserving by the way,
we're not just saying just chucking it.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
There's a lot of people out there.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
Have you've done your research, you know, and like, I
think that's why a lot of people, like even with
fashion like Edward Nifel pushing British Vogue and all these
black places you'll see because you can do this.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Yes, Dave, it's a little bit.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Harder because you've always used that same photographer for years,
but like diversify it's okay.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Yep, totally agree, one hundred percent. I think what it
is it's it's work, Yeah, exactly. Not everyone is willing
and ready to do the work or take on the work,
so hey, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
And also people don't the ego, don't want to share,
that's true.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
So it's also like, ah, that's.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
Why why should I have to I thought I thought
tooth and nail to get here. Meanwhile, it's like inheritance.
But anyway, that's another story for another day. But it's like, oh, yeah, no,
so why would I Why would I share my space
with anybody? Why would I give a voice to anyone
else when I'm enjoying the fruits of my labor?
Speaker 2 (39:44):
Totally So Mommy, Mommy and Daddy's labor anyway as women
and to bring it a bit closer to home for
ourselves as women, specifically black zimbabwe And women, that is,
how do men play a role in being good allies?
M it's real clubs.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
The way we've talked about this, the way we have
chattered about this girl, especially when you go back to
zoom and you're with your habby there or your brother
there and you're like, I know, when you're overseas you
wash these dishes? Why anting like you can't see them
dishes now? And the only way in these with patriarchy especially,
(40:27):
the only way things would change is if people in
the patriarchal society call out these changes. Of course, women
also uphold the patriarchy. That's not like, but it also
takes a man to be like.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
It's too much. Yeah, So, Amanas, you've definitely touched on
one of the issues we face as Zimbabwean women, specifically
black women. Patriarchy is a huge thing. There's a lot
of we've had in an episode around abuse. There's a
lot of that. There's class and status and all these things,
(41:08):
so much financial emotional, like there's just so I'm losing
the words. I'm just telling you so for those who
don't know what issues are being faced by black women,
and we obviously are speaking specifically as black women because
we are black women and we are from Zabwe, those
there are a lot of issues, and I think it's
the silence, the silence of men in these scenarios and
(41:33):
situations where women are suffering. Do you know I didn't
actually realize what allyship was really in terms of a
man helped or signing up for You went home for
the first time after getting married in March April, and
we love these story times. By the way, we had
(41:55):
we had a brier barbecue for for my parents. Throw
us a barbecue, and my husband and I to be like, oh,
you guys are here, so family can come see you
since the wedding, so on and so forth. And of
course in our culture, who's going to be doing the cooking?
Me as the guest is the one? Yeah, both thinker,
(42:15):
so you do the work, Oh the heck, and I'm there.
And then when it's time to serve, my mom was like, oh, sir,
for your husband, you guys surf first, be surved for
your husband, because you know that's how it's done there.
And then my husband was like, no, I can come
the dish for myself totally. And the whole time when
you saw me up and down, he was like stressed
(42:37):
because he was stressful. He was supposed to sit with
family and engage them in conversation, and I was, you know,
running around and he just kept seeing me and he's like,
are you okay? Do you need anything? And I was like,
because we know what our society is, and just for
him to say, no, I will serve myself. The wood's here,
it's easy again. That was just him saying like I
(42:59):
don't need you to labor even more for me, which
was something I appreciated, you know, him even saying that
in front of my parents. It's a big thing with
family there. Then I had a cousin whose wife had
a baby. She's taking care of this baby. He's younger
than me, by the way, and then he's like, go
dish for me to his wife. So I'm looking at
(43:21):
him like this is a this is a free for
all buffet, and he's like, no, that's why we got married, right,
And not only was she requested so because she came
and I was like, oh no, but like he can
time help himself, like the table's ready, Like it's not.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
That everything's there, everything is.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Everything is set, and then she's like, oh no. I
was told no to sir go and asked like, how
can you make him? You know, obviously you have to
be like not too like intense, but it's like, how
can you make yourself? You know, she's been with the
baby all day and he's just like, oh, that's why
we got married. And I was like, not only dishing
(44:00):
for her husband, she had a dish for her husband's brother,
younger brother too. It's just like, what in the what
in the actual I'm using a very simplified scenario to
just break down how many and I really called it.
I was like, how can you do that? No, like
(44:22):
you've got your and he's like, no, that's why I
have a wife. I was like, m and.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
Be your own because you're thinking this guy is younger
than me. He clearly you should be more quote unquote woke,
but here we are nope, pushing it, pushing pushing gender.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
He's sleeping Oma. That's just that's just been there.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
And you know what, people probably were looking at Tom
like that Tom is checked, so obviously that's why he'd
be doing this Like you know, if it was a
fellow zimbabwe and man, the question then becomes, do you
have enough cahunas to stand up for your wife and
be like, ah, you know, I do the dishes at home.
I can do the dishes. Yeah, Like yep, it's exactly problem.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
Exactly, so it's we could go on. I think it
really it really confuses me because I'm like, it's so confusing.
We were educated the same for the most part. People
were global minded to some degree. Obviously it depends on
you know, situation, circumstance. We all have access to the internet.
(45:26):
We're all trying to play a part. I was so confused,
and it's I think what hurts and I think it
ultimately why it affects me. I think it really hurts
as a black woman to see black men being quiet
when black women suffer. And I'm not saying.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
It's the ultimately, it's the ultimate hard Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
Yeah, I think it's not that we want you to
now or whatever. Like we understand there's a whole history
and it's hard to like and do a lot of that,
but to carry your plate or to offer to help
with I don't know how to explain it. There's just yeah,
you know what, I should think.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
It's so deep because there's a lot of and I'm
sure at some point we're going to have a whole
episode or centered around this because there's a lot of
self hate attached there, because it's like, sometimes it feels
like black men will treat any other race decent but us.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
You know, my mom was strong, so you'll be strong.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
But I'm not a quiet rath like you know, I'm
a fellow sister who uphold me, uplift me the same
way I want to uphold and uplift you. And I
feel like we then race races. Sometimes a lot of
times you notice and we're digressing here, but hey, just
come with us. Yes, a lot of times you you
notice that we are very especially when it comes to
(46:52):
a black man. It feels as if they're complimentary of
everyone else but us.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
They treat everyone else.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
And sometimes you see this guy in a soft life
with the with the twy honey, and then I was
like you was like, no, you're being treated like this. Yeah,
why can't you just be as soft as you are?
But obviously there's a lot of, as you said, things,
we have to learn their history and this whole I
have to be the strong black man and lead my family.
(47:19):
And I think that's more so when it's black on black,
you know, And it's it's heartbreaking to not be loved
and nurtured.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
In your own home and surrounds.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
Before you go elsewhere, you know, so you can be like,
I understand why people not understand, but you can see
people due to ignorance or whatever, might not appreciate me,
but you you know me, you should love me, and
I appreciate you know, yeah too.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
And yeah, it's it's it's really heartbreak. It's something that
I think I'm trying to wrap my head around in
a lot of ways because it's like, yeah, if we
can't like each other up.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
How we women in the world and who will Yeah,
because all the other men also look at us, but
your own men don't appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
Yeah, so yeah, And I know it's almost there's a
whole argument women, you don't do this or whatever, But
I don't know. I don't. I don't know. Maybe because
I'm a woman, I don't buy it, because, as you said,
the ability to support and be there for a woman
of a different hue or whatever compared to or background,
(48:29):
compared to you. It's really disheartening.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
And sometimes it's not even about a love relationship. It's
even like siblings. You know, a lot of times my
brothers tender mosha. We we've gone to the royal areas.
They have to push for me, like no, no, no, Amanda'll
harp you get the bucket and get the water.
Speaker 3 (48:46):
We all grow. We're all in this because you all.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
Know this too, you know.
Speaker 1 (48:52):
So it's like it's not but I'm not even talking
about like you know that's romantic club is another step.
But even just your own brother helping you in the
morning to get tea for everybody to do this, to
do that, it's just like, be my ally, help me.
You know, this is a struggle. I'm not I don't
have to be strong twenty for seven, especially with my
(49:14):
own family, Like can I not be vulnerable here?
Speaker 2 (49:18):
If I can't be vulnerable, we know they're like thinking
Rooney is watching New Slave Aways.
Speaker 1 (49:26):
So sometimes even like you just got to commend men,
black men, black Zimbabwean men who are willing to fight
the status quo, who are willing to question it even
let's not even fight this is question, Like there's twenty guys,
yeah and two girls. We expect those two girls to
give everybody their bucket.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
For like to wash hands or whatever.
Speaker 3 (49:46):
Yeah, yeah, be ages them.
Speaker 1 (49:48):
Okay, all the young guns go and get my bucket,
like you know ye to be another aspect that's not
just women do everything for sure. Notes because you're sitting
on top, right, So who wants to just while saying
for who wants to share when you're on top, who
wants to go back and lift someone out?
Speaker 2 (50:04):
Clearly nobody And that brings it so much more into
perspective to say, this is why we need allies because
it's like it's so comfortable and you need to get
a little bit uncomfortable for you to actually help. And
I think what people don't realize. It's like it's like
(50:25):
someone must lose for me to win. But it's like
what if we all win? And if you push it forward.
Imagine you're pushing forward and society benefits as a whole,
like you become I don't know, And I honestly think
speaking of the you know, black men black women scenario,
I think black women were revered back in the day,
(50:50):
but then I think with colonialism and the introduction of
all these ideas of patriarchy. It shifted things to being
almost like women as an asset or something to do things.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
And also I feel like as a skate knowledge right,
because these men were being disrespected because you listen, I
could only take it home. I could only take my
anger home, you know, because it workout to be as bass.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
Yes, So now when I'm home, I can beat up
on you. I can get all that anger and frustration
out out. Yeah, so we're not denying that. That's why
we were saying so much to work through, you know,
But we's just like, can we work though? Yeah, next
time you go move out to your sister, please just
say something.
Speaker 3 (51:31):
Please just go help me with something, just please. You
already got to sleep in.
Speaker 2 (51:37):
Yeah that wake up early, brah.
Speaker 4 (51:41):
And then they're just like you are already swathing. I mean,
could try and actually you help me with the tear.
Do something, just a little small steps.
Speaker 1 (51:51):
Somebody asking you to do slave away, but it's a
little bring your plate after you eat.
Speaker 2 (51:56):
Just bring a plate. Let's start there, guys, very simple.
Let's just bring the plate. That's it.
Speaker 3 (52:01):
We're clearly very triggered.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
But yeah, oh my gosh, it's such a layered topic
and there's so many aspects to it, and I guess
you just wanted people to question within themselves. Allies ship
their thoughts, and I think a lot of times when
you're like, I think it happened in America where they
had Black Lives Matter and they felt like other people
(52:26):
of color supported Germen, stop Asian hate started.
Speaker 2 (52:29):
There's a lot of talk about African.
Speaker 1 (52:31):
Americans not pulling up to help Asian. So I think
a lot of times as well, even within our own communities, Yes,
I'm already marginalized, but I can still for someone else,
you know, because because again you should understand because you
also sometimes go through it in your way. And I
guess we just wanted to have an episode where we
honor all the people doing the hard work out there
(52:54):
in these closed rooms, behind closed doors, we see, we
love you and keep going please.
Speaker 2 (53:02):
And the conspiracy theorists in me is like they don't
want us to support each other because they know powerful too. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
You know, my dad and I actually have gone to
depth talking about this. Tribalism was back back in the
back back day. People used to actually some people there
were different tribes used to share things and do batter trading.
Then on colonism came was like, oh, that tribe and
then people started going against each other, try bullying each
other and exactly, and whilst you're busy doing that, I
(53:33):
can come and take over. So really there's layers to this.
Speaker 2 (53:38):
Don't let them win, guys, don't let them wind.
Speaker 3 (53:45):
We're gonna be getting the DS.
Speaker 2 (53:48):
Just my theory on life conspiracy theorists. I think I
got a lot of that from my dad.
Speaker 1 (53:54):
Just conspiracy theories anyway, but you gotta deep your dad
was onto something.
Speaker 2 (54:00):
Always. What's our zim shout out for this episode? Room?
So our zim shout out quite befitting is zimbabwe And
born Stephanie Travis, who is deputy team principal of Lewis
Hamilton's Extreme E team X four four Vida Carbon Racing.
Oh that was a mufful before that, she spent three
(54:22):
years working with the Mercedes F one team. We just
wanted to shout out her for making waves and spaces
where women don't often get a chance to shine. Stephanie
travers at Stephanie Travis as her handle and talking about allyship. Essentially,
Lewis Hamilton of her and she's not the only woman
on his team, I think is really really what it
(54:46):
is to bring them in, open the door, allow them
into these spaces, and that's what he did. So shout
out to her and being in an unconventional field, in
an unconventional space as a woman. I know there are
a lot of more women who are now into Formula one.
I know Amanda's a fan of watching one, so you know,
(55:07):
it's shout out to that. I'm not quite there, but
I can appreciate the speed we can edit. Being Zimbabwean bra,
that's the extra flavor on top of that. Yes, exactly, exactly,
So shout out to you Stephanie Travis for what you're doing.
Keep shining and guys, we just hope this episode was helpful.
It's a complex topic. This is why we do this
(55:29):
podcast actually is to discuss these very layered topics which
are not straightforward, but we strongly believe in talking about things,
we start thinking about things, and starting to think about things,
we start to find ways to shift and change and
discuss them with others too. Yeah for sure. Yeah, thank
you so much, Amanda, Thank you all for listening. You
(55:50):
know we're on all the socials.
Speaker 1 (55:52):
Just find our website and our website on your website.
Speaker 2 (55:56):
Okay, anyway, thank you so much, thank for listening, thank
you and for your time. And we'll catch you guys
on the next one. Take care bye. We'll use your hand.
Speaker 3 (56:08):
They will tear you up.
Speaker 2 (56:10):
Lack a paper two. Oh no no no, yeah yeah
yeah yeah
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