June 2, 2025 • 7 mins
The extraordinary Jacinda Ardern joins Jonesy & Amanda ahead of the release of her brand new book, A Different Kind Of Power: A Memoir.
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
My Heart podcasts here, more Gold one on one point
seven podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Playlists and listen live on the Free iHeart app.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Jersey and Amanda jam Nation Sinda A Durn, the former
Prime Minister of New Zealand, was the world's youngest female
head of government and just the second ever to give
birth in office. She's got a new book called A
Different Kind of Power. It's available right now.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
She is just Sinda A Durn. It's good to see you, Hi.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
To talk to you.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
I'm so excited and so thrilled. Are so taken by
your retelling of your of your life. And the book
starts with it with something that so many women have
had to deal with. Work baby, but the drama. You're
about to find out whether you're going to be Prime
Minister of New Zealand, and there's a pregnancy test waiting
(00:57):
to come to fruition on the bench. Those two things
could not have collided in a more dramatic way for you.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
It's all right. And I remember, Amanda, at the time
that it happened, I just thought you couldn't write about
this like this is just too much.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
How did you feel, obviously you wanted to be prime minister?
You want to be a mum. Did you feel in
that moment I can make both work?
Speaker 3 (01:25):
No? No, not at all. I mean, look, someone once
said to me in politics, there's no such thing as
perfect timing, Like you just can't get everything to line
up for when it suits you and for when it
suits life, and for when it suits your family. And
that statement was never truer than in that moment, you know,
one of the things I wanted to do. And telling
(01:47):
this story we share a little bit more about how
this came to me. Because I always worry that New
Zealanders when I became Prime Minister into twenty seventeen and
then twenty eighteen I'm taking maternity leave. I always worried
that they thought, what were you doing? And by sharing
this story, I can give a little more context that
(02:07):
I've been told I would struggle to he baby. I
wasn't sure it was going to happen for me, and
I carried a bit of sadness over that, and when
I was running as leader, I just put it aside
and decided that I would think about it later. But
lo and behold, there was no avoiding the subject when
that happened. When I found out I was pregnant during negotiations.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
And being a prime minister. It's one of those jobs
i'd imagine where you just don't know what your day
is going to be like, and particularly with the twenty
nineteen shooting at the mosque, yeah, your life must have
just matrix style to slow down at that point.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
It's an interesting way to describe it, because there are
moments that, amongst the chaos of crisis, do slow down.
And I have this very distinct memory of, you know,
during March fifteen, My just my desire as soon as
I heard about the attack was just to get on
the ground, to be there. But at that time they
weren't sure whether or not it was a wider attack,
(03:06):
whether it was called an ordinated, whether the other people involved,
whether I was a target. So I was bundled off
to a police station and kept the effort for some time.
And when I eventually got closer to where officials were
to be briefed, as I walked into the office, one
of my officials said to me, Prime Minister, this will
define you, and that kind of you know, I remember
(03:28):
in that moment thinking, I can't think about that, I
can't think about how people will see me as a
result of this event, I just have to think about
how I do my job when people are afraid.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Your anger is still palpable on the page as to
what that terrorist was trying to do to your country,
and in that moment, you chose to just open your
arms to everybody. You may be a new arrival in
New Zealand, but you are us.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
And I wonder if you know and sharing that string
of emotions, you know, finding out what had happened, that
our community had been targeted, and then so soon after
having the manifesto and knowing exactly what the intent of
the attacker was and feeling so angry, and I remember
the rage, just feeling so much anger about what his
(04:21):
ambition was, and it was to try and create almost
a war between our people and the idea that he
wanted to achieve. That I think New Zealanders as a
whole just rejected that that we weren't going to be manipulated.
In fact, we were going to hold closer the community
he had targeted. So I really credit New Zealanders in
the midst of for that response.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Midst of all that you're talking to a school and
you're trying to and this is a school where some
people had lot, some children had lost classmates, and one
little girl. You said, are there any questions? A little
girl said how are you? And it almost broke yes.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Oh and I just finished giving this, you know, this
long speech to these students about how it was okay
not to be okay. And then that was the question
she asked me. When you you're a leader, or you're
in public office, you grapple a lot with how much
of yourself to put out there, particularly when it's not
your grief it's other people's grief. Also when you're you know,
(05:21):
we're all climatized to this idea. I think that too
much emotion equals weakness. But what March Schaftine taught me
was that sometimes you actually you can't stop a human response,
and maybe we shouldn't.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
What's one of the cool things that you miss from
about being Prime Minister? From the cars to the free
stationary greenlight code or you know, things like that.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
You know, people, It's going to sound a bit tright,
but I miss I miss the great people I worked
with and the great people that you. I mean, you
could see something on the news and think, wow, look
at that thing that amazing person is doing. I'd like
to go and visit that, and you can. But you
also get to solve problems. I mean, how many times
you've been irritated by something in your life and they're
(06:09):
one Actually, you're going to have a chance to do
something on behalf of people to fix problems. It's an
immensely privileged job to have. But there are things I
don't miss as well. Yeah, I don't miss I don't
miss the weight of it because it is a weight.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
I'm me and you were made a dame, you were knighted,
My Prince William is an actual sword. Do you feel
the weight of the sword on your shoulder?
Speaker 3 (06:36):
So this is a really interesting point. I mean, did
you know they don't use the sword on woman? Ah,
but they were very kind at Windsor Castle to allow
a member of Nati Ranana in London to come and
cloak me. So I had a little piece of home
at that process.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
So you just can't keep adding stuff to it, though,
when does it stop? Then someone says I want I
want this, I want some crazy glasses. It looks like
Elton John up.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Well, I think if you're just like if you're saying,
well this is what we do for one and then
we'll do this one other thing over here. I think
it's probably okay. But look, if Elton wants a head
or approach.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
A man who would want some jewels a man, is
there a jewels? Because I'm not, can we get some jewels?
I just send her It's so great to talk to
you in the flesh. Your book a different kind of
power as in stores today. To send her a Durne.
Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Thank you so much, so nice to chat with you.
Take care and thanks for reading it.
My Heart podcasts here, more Gold one on one point
seven podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Playlists and listen live on the Free iHeart app.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Jersey and Amanda jam Nation Sinda A Durn, the former
Prime Minister of New Zealand, was the world's youngest female
head of government and just the second ever to give
birth in office. She's got a new book called A
Different Kind of Power. It's available right now.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
She is just Sinda A Durn. It's good to see you, Hi.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
To talk to you.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
I'm so excited and so thrilled. Are so taken by
your retelling of your of your life. And the book
starts with it with something that so many women have
had to deal with. Work baby, but the drama. You're
about to find out whether you're going to be Prime
Minister of New Zealand, and there's a pregnancy test waiting
(00:57):
to come to fruition on the bench. Those two things
could not have collided in a more dramatic way for you.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
It's all right. And I remember, Amanda, at the time
that it happened, I just thought you couldn't write about
this like this is just too much.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
How did you feel, obviously you wanted to be prime minister?
You want to be a mum. Did you feel in
that moment I can make both work?
Speaker 3 (01:25):
No? No, not at all. I mean, look, someone once
said to me in politics, there's no such thing as
perfect timing, Like you just can't get everything to line
up for when it suits you and for when it
suits life, and for when it suits your family. And
that statement was never truer than in that moment, you know,
one of the things I wanted to do. And telling
(01:47):
this story we share a little bit more about how
this came to me. Because I always worry that New
Zealanders when I became Prime Minister into twenty seventeen and
then twenty eighteen I'm taking maternity leave. I always worried
that they thought, what were you doing? And by sharing
this story, I can give a little more context that
(02:07):
I've been told I would struggle to he baby. I
wasn't sure it was going to happen for me, and
I carried a bit of sadness over that, and when
I was running as leader, I just put it aside
and decided that I would think about it later. But
lo and behold, there was no avoiding the subject when
that happened. When I found out I was pregnant during negotiations.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
And being a prime minister. It's one of those jobs
i'd imagine where you just don't know what your day
is going to be like, and particularly with the twenty
nineteen shooting at the mosque, yeah, your life must have
just matrix style to slow down at that point.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
It's an interesting way to describe it, because there are
moments that, amongst the chaos of crisis, do slow down.
And I have this very distinct memory of, you know,
during March fifteen, My just my desire as soon as
I heard about the attack was just to get on
the ground, to be there. But at that time they
weren't sure whether or not it was a wider attack,
(03:06):
whether it was called an ordinated, whether the other people involved,
whether I was a target. So I was bundled off
to a police station and kept the effort for some time.
And when I eventually got closer to where officials were
to be briefed, as I walked into the office, one
of my officials said to me, Prime Minister, this will
define you, and that kind of you know, I remember
(03:28):
in that moment thinking, I can't think about that, I
can't think about how people will see me as a
result of this event, I just have to think about
how I do my job when people are afraid.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Your anger is still palpable on the page as to
what that terrorist was trying to do to your country,
and in that moment, you chose to just open your
arms to everybody. You may be a new arrival in
New Zealand, but you are us.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
And I wonder if you know and sharing that string
of emotions, you know, finding out what had happened, that
our community had been targeted, and then so soon after
having the manifesto and knowing exactly what the intent of
the attacker was and feeling so angry, and I remember
the rage, just feeling so much anger about what his
(04:21):
ambition was, and it was to try and create almost
a war between our people and the idea that he
wanted to achieve. That I think New Zealanders as a
whole just rejected that that we weren't going to be manipulated.
In fact, we were going to hold closer the community
he had targeted. So I really credit New Zealanders in
the midst of for that response.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Midst of all that you're talking to a school and
you're trying to and this is a school where some
people had lot, some children had lost classmates, and one
little girl. You said, are there any questions? A little
girl said how are you? And it almost broke yes.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Oh and I just finished giving this, you know, this
long speech to these students about how it was okay
not to be okay. And then that was the question
she asked me. When you you're a leader, or you're
in public office, you grapple a lot with how much
of yourself to put out there, particularly when it's not
your grief it's other people's grief. Also when you're you know,
(05:21):
we're all climatized to this idea. I think that too
much emotion equals weakness. But what March Schaftine taught me
was that sometimes you actually you can't stop a human response,
and maybe we shouldn't.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
What's one of the cool things that you miss from
about being Prime Minister? From the cars to the free
stationary greenlight code or you know, things like that.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
You know, people, It's going to sound a bit tright,
but I miss I miss the great people I worked
with and the great people that you. I mean, you
could see something on the news and think, wow, look
at that thing that amazing person is doing. I'd like
to go and visit that, and you can. But you
also get to solve problems. I mean, how many times
you've been irritated by something in your life and they're
(06:09):
one Actually, you're going to have a chance to do
something on behalf of people to fix problems. It's an
immensely privileged job to have. But there are things I
don't miss as well. Yeah, I don't miss I don't
miss the weight of it because it is a weight.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
I'm me and you were made a dame, you were knighted,
My Prince William is an actual sword. Do you feel
the weight of the sword on your shoulder?
Speaker 3 (06:36):
So this is a really interesting point. I mean, did
you know they don't use the sword on woman? Ah,
but they were very kind at Windsor Castle to allow
a member of Nati Ranana in London to come and
cloak me. So I had a little piece of home
at that process.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
So you just can't keep adding stuff to it, though,
when does it stop? Then someone says I want I
want this, I want some crazy glasses. It looks like
Elton John up.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Well, I think if you're just like if you're saying,
well this is what we do for one and then
we'll do this one other thing over here. I think
it's probably okay. But look, if Elton wants a head
or approach.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
A man who would want some jewels a man, is
there a jewels? Because I'm not, can we get some jewels?
I just send her It's so great to talk to
you in the flesh. Your book a different kind of
power as in stores today. To send her a Durne.
Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Thank you so much, so nice to chat with you.
Take care and thanks for reading it.
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