May 26, 2025 • 6 mins
Former CIA Agent Tracy Walder from Netflix's American Manhunt: Osama bin Laden joins Jonesy & Amanda for an incredible chat.
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
My Heart podcasts here, more Gold one on one point
seven podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Playlists and listen live on the Free iHeart app.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
New Jersey and Amanda jam Nations the new docu series
on Netflix. I watched it last night. It's got everyone
in the office talking. It's called American Man Hunt, the
Sama Bin Laden. It follows, of course, the hunt for
Bin Laden following the nine to eleven attacks. Amongst those
featured is Tracy Walder, a former CIA agent who was
in the space of a year, went from being a
(00:39):
university student to joining the hunt for Sama bin Laden.
Quite extraordinary.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Tracy, Hello, Hi, thank you all so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
How do you get to that?
Speaker 1 (00:50):
How do you go from being a UNI student one
year to being that the next?
Speaker 3 (00:56):
I mean, it's a long story, but I'll shorten it
up obviously for radio. But you know, it wasn't something
that I had set out to be. I wanted to
be a high school history teacher. This is we have
to remember the world was very different rat pre nine
to eleven. Terrorism wasn't of mine in America. It just
wasn't a thing. And I watched Bin Laden's interview in
nineteen ninety seven, and that's when he issued his declaration
(01:17):
of war against the United States, and I wanted to
find out more about who this person was, what he
was about. So I started taking classes international affairs, those
kinds of things. But I didn't know that you could
work in the CIA and work counter terrorism there. I
went to a career fair at my university spring of
my junior year, saw that there was a table said CIA,
(01:38):
and I gave them my resume, really not expecting any
call whatsoever, and they called. I was cleared by Gosh
November December of my senior year, contingent upon my graduating
college obviously. I graduated in May of two thousand and
started two weeks later.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Wow, right into the drop zone of when the world changed.
It's quite extraordinary because we've seen the story play out
a number of times, but to see it from an
intelligence point of view was so interesting. That were the
first boots on the ground in Afghanistan, and in a
why the intelligence community took the hat with Congress, with
the public for not finding bin Laden, but there was
so much more to it.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Yeah, it was very frustrating. It was frustrating obviously being
at the agency at that time. I think I talk
a little bit in the documentary that there weren't that many.
There wasn't a lot of time to have feelings about things, right,
no one really cared what we thought. But obviously, I
think looking back, we were all very deeply affected by
the fact that we were essentially blamed right for missing
(02:40):
September eleventh. The nine to eleven Commission blamed us for that,
and I think we thought, specifically at that moment in
Tora Bora, really that we could in a way avenge
the deaths of these individuals and kind of shirk some
of that blame that we had gotten and changed the
narrative just a little bit. So it was really frustrating,
(03:00):
obviously being on duty that night and losing Bin Laden essentially,
and that's when he made his journey into Pakistan.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Because Toura Bora was when, you know, about a month
after September eleven, you knew he was in the Afghanistan mountains.
You said, we can get him. You wanted the military
to come in, and you didn't get the backup.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
I mean, I think it's human nature, right, if you're
bombed from above, you're going to run away if you survive, right,
we all want to live and so I think we
knew that, right. We knew that that would essentially happen.
We knew we wouldn't kill every single terrorist that was there,
and unfortunately, that's exactly what happened.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
And when you look at it, nineteen ninety seven, that's
when you discovered Asama bin laden Laden. That was before
any of us knew who he was. So you must
have been increasingly frustrated when September eleven actually had happened
and you thought, hang on, knew this. I know this guy,
I know what his intentions are.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
I don't know that I necessarily knew what he would do, right,
Like I have lived through that First World Trade Center
bombing that we had in nineteen ninety three from the
blind Shake, and then we also were in the kind
of don of terrorism, homegrown terrorism. We had the Oklahoma
City bombing that had happened just two years after that,
(04:14):
And so now we have this person who is declaring
war on us, and I think, yes, it was very frustrating,
particularly once I got to the agency, to realize that
actually that's not where the focus was. So at the time,
the focus was very much on Central and South America.
There was like a lot of coudetars and counter narcotics
issues going on there as well as Russia, because Russia's
(04:37):
kind of always been on our radar. It was a
very small group that, in all honesty, didn't get a
whole lot of attention.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
What was the you say you weren't you didn't have
time for emotion. But in this documentary, that final episode
in particular is so hot, so extraordinary to watch. When
you captured Osama bin Laden, How did that feel for you?
Speaker 3 (04:57):
So I want to be completely transparent, Amanda Jersey. I
have not watched it, and I want to. I want
to explain why I have a lot of PTSD to diagnose,
you know, mental health issues surrounding September eleventh. I served
to tours in Afghanistan. You know, there's a lot that
goes around that, and so it's difficult for me to
(05:18):
watch it. So I just want to beat me honest
and open about that. But I do think that it
felt good to get him, and this might surprise listeners.
I didn't necessarily feel relieved, and let me explain why.
Because you can't kill an idea. And I talk about
this in the book that I wrote that it's like
(05:38):
starfish right, you cut off, you know, one of the
arms of the star, and it grows back over time.
And what I was concerned about was that we got
in laden. Therefore, people, the government money would stop caring
about terrorism, and it would grow and fester again, and
then there would be another attack. So that was actually
my concern. I was obviously happy he wasn't that influential
(06:03):
anymore at that point because he was in such a
sheltered state by then. But at this time I was concerned, Yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
How do you feel now with terrorism? Can we get
past it? Because to me, it just seems to be
an ideology. If you go to the Middle East, it's
like Muslim versus Christian. Yeah, so you've got all these
religious groups subsets, and you've got an archaic religion versus
another archaic religion. How do you get past that?
Speaker 3 (06:32):
That's I mean, that is a million dollar question.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
If I could solve that, it would really be if
you could wrap that up right now, if you wrapped
up Middle East peace, we would be out of here.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
We could play a nickelback and we'd be happy. But
it's not going to happen, and it's not going to
happen now. But Tracy. It's a great Netflix series, American Manhunt, Anyone,
Tracy Wallace, thank you for joining us, Thank you for
having me.
My Heart podcasts here, more Gold one on one point
seven podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Playlists and listen live on the Free iHeart app.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
New Jersey and Amanda jam Nations the new docu series
on Netflix. I watched it last night. It's got everyone
in the office talking. It's called American Man Hunt, the
Sama Bin Laden. It follows, of course, the hunt for
Bin Laden following the nine to eleven attacks. Amongst those
featured is Tracy Walder, a former CIA agent who was
in the space of a year, went from being a
(00:39):
university student to joining the hunt for Sama bin Laden.
Quite extraordinary.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Tracy, Hello, Hi, thank you all so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
How do you get to that?
Speaker 1 (00:50):
How do you go from being a UNI student one
year to being that the next?
Speaker 3 (00:56):
I mean, it's a long story, but I'll shorten it
up obviously for radio. But you know, it wasn't something
that I had set out to be. I wanted to
be a high school history teacher. This is we have
to remember the world was very different rat pre nine
to eleven. Terrorism wasn't of mine in America. It just
wasn't a thing. And I watched Bin Laden's interview in
nineteen ninety seven, and that's when he issued his declaration
(01:17):
of war against the United States, and I wanted to
find out more about who this person was, what he
was about. So I started taking classes international affairs, those
kinds of things. But I didn't know that you could
work in the CIA and work counter terrorism there. I
went to a career fair at my university spring of
my junior year, saw that there was a table said CIA,
(01:38):
and I gave them my resume, really not expecting any
call whatsoever, and they called. I was cleared by Gosh
November December of my senior year, contingent upon my graduating
college obviously. I graduated in May of two thousand and
started two weeks later.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Wow, right into the drop zone of when the world changed.
It's quite extraordinary because we've seen the story play out
a number of times, but to see it from an
intelligence point of view was so interesting. That were the
first boots on the ground in Afghanistan, and in a
why the intelligence community took the hat with Congress, with
the public for not finding bin Laden, but there was
so much more to it.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Yeah, it was very frustrating. It was frustrating obviously being
at the agency at that time. I think I talk
a little bit in the documentary that there weren't that many.
There wasn't a lot of time to have feelings about things, right,
no one really cared what we thought. But obviously, I
think looking back, we were all very deeply affected by
the fact that we were essentially blamed right for missing
(02:40):
September eleventh. The nine to eleven Commission blamed us for that,
and I think we thought, specifically at that moment in
Tora Bora, really that we could in a way avenge
the deaths of these individuals and kind of shirk some
of that blame that we had gotten and changed the
narrative just a little bit. So it was really frustrating,
(03:00):
obviously being on duty that night and losing Bin Laden essentially,
and that's when he made his journey into Pakistan.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Because Toura Bora was when, you know, about a month
after September eleven, you knew he was in the Afghanistan mountains.
You said, we can get him. You wanted the military
to come in, and you didn't get the backup.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
I mean, I think it's human nature, right, if you're
bombed from above, you're going to run away if you survive, right,
we all want to live and so I think we
knew that, right. We knew that that would essentially happen.
We knew we wouldn't kill every single terrorist that was there,
and unfortunately, that's exactly what happened.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
And when you look at it, nineteen ninety seven, that's
when you discovered Asama bin laden Laden. That was before
any of us knew who he was. So you must
have been increasingly frustrated when September eleven actually had happened
and you thought, hang on, knew this. I know this guy,
I know what his intentions are.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
I don't know that I necessarily knew what he would do, right,
Like I have lived through that First World Trade Center
bombing that we had in nineteen ninety three from the
blind Shake, and then we also were in the kind
of don of terrorism, homegrown terrorism. We had the Oklahoma
City bombing that had happened just two years after that,
(04:14):
And so now we have this person who is declaring
war on us, and I think, yes, it was very frustrating,
particularly once I got to the agency, to realize that
actually that's not where the focus was. So at the time,
the focus was very much on Central and South America.
There was like a lot of coudetars and counter narcotics
issues going on there as well as Russia, because Russia's
(04:37):
kind of always been on our radar. It was a
very small group that, in all honesty, didn't get a
whole lot of attention.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
What was the you say you weren't you didn't have
time for emotion. But in this documentary, that final episode
in particular is so hot, so extraordinary to watch. When
you captured Osama bin Laden, How did that feel for you?
Speaker 3 (04:57):
So I want to be completely transparent, Amanda Jersey. I
have not watched it, and I want to. I want
to explain why I have a lot of PTSD to diagnose,
you know, mental health issues surrounding September eleventh. I served
to tours in Afghanistan. You know, there's a lot that
goes around that, and so it's difficult for me to
(05:18):
watch it. So I just want to beat me honest
and open about that. But I do think that it
felt good to get him, and this might surprise listeners.
I didn't necessarily feel relieved, and let me explain why.
Because you can't kill an idea. And I talk about
this in the book that I wrote that it's like
(05:38):
starfish right, you cut off, you know, one of the
arms of the star, and it grows back over time.
And what I was concerned about was that we got
in laden. Therefore, people, the government money would stop caring
about terrorism, and it would grow and fester again, and
then there would be another attack. So that was actually
my concern. I was obviously happy he wasn't that influential
(06:03):
anymore at that point because he was in such a
sheltered state by then. But at this time I was concerned, Yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
How do you feel now with terrorism? Can we get
past it? Because to me, it just seems to be
an ideology. If you go to the Middle East, it's
like Muslim versus Christian. Yeah, so you've got all these
religious groups subsets, and you've got an archaic religion versus
another archaic religion. How do you get past that?
Speaker 3 (06:32):
That's I mean, that is a million dollar question.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
If I could solve that, it would really be if
you could wrap that up right now, if you wrapped
up Middle East peace, we would be out of here.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
We could play a nickelback and we'd be happy. But
it's not going to happen, and it's not going to
happen now. But Tracy. It's a great Netflix series, American Manhunt, Anyone,
Tracy Wallace, thank you for joining us, Thank you for
having me.
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