May 21, 2025 • 8 mins
We put some controversial questions to Jonesy & Amanda.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
And Amanda jam We've joined in the studio by Steve
Van Apparn Poker Faces out on stan which I'm looking
forward to seeing. That's such a great, great show. But
Steve has come along here today and give us the
ins and outs of detecting. He's a human lie detect he.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Is, and he's worked with police departments and homicide teams
and all kinds of things for a number of years.
We're going to put his skill set to Looking at you, Brendan,
as I ask you some questions, why to me as
you put your hand up and said you'd do it
when you were tired after a meeting one day.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I think I was paying attention.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
I know, so Steve, I think that Jonesy has I
don't think he can play poker because I think he
has such a girning face that he rubs his eyes,
he mimics and move. I think I can tell when you.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Often find that people. That's a tell when someone you
know how you going and they go I'm great, they
touch their face.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Is that really? Is that a talent?
Speaker 3 (01:04):
What is We look for conflict or contradiction between what
a person's saying and what the body language is stating
so there are more neural connections between the hand and
the face than any other part of the body. So
usually it's what we call a masking, concealment, or blocking behavior.
So psychologically our hand goes up to our mouth to
block those false words really yeah, because we feel uncomfortable
(01:25):
about it. But at the last moment will be a
deflection like a nose touch, eye rub or something. If
you've got a decent itch, you give it a scratch
as opposed to just a cursory touch. So also behavioral
psychologists believe it's a way of offset and the anxiety
of being associated with knowing that they're telling a lot.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Because I saw the boss the other day and I said,
has a show going? He said, oh, it's so good
you got You're here forever.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Yeah. But the FBI teacher agents to baseline or benchmark
then look for deviations from that. So if you've got
somebody who always does that and then you ask a question,
they do it again, that tells me nothing what we
look for. Does the question become the threatening stimulus which
engages a change in behavior, and they're evasive, a missive,
dismissive side step the issue, don't answer the question I'm
sure you both have been viewed politicians and they'll ask
(02:10):
you a question and they'll just deflect. Good journalists go
back and ask the same question again because there's usually
a pretty good reason when those red flags are there,
and that is because they feel uncomfortable with.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
A question as just ask you this before we start.
Are women better at detecting lies than men?
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Not only are they better at detecting lies, they're better
at reading body language because you have more evaluation centers
in your brain. So there was a study and they
found that women make better lies because there's less response latency,
arms and ours, and they can include more content, information, structure,
and detail. So sometimes I get people on stage and
(02:48):
I'll say, look, tell me you know a lie whatever,
And what will happen is often women will not only
create a false memory that never existed, they'll also create
a false conversation with someone that never existed. So it's
like lying twice within the one lie, whereas men's lies
are very basic, like you know I'm running late, or
you know no, your bum doesn't look bigger.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Though, Well that's question one.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Well, Steve, I say what do I do? I just
do I just I'm going to ask the question to
ask a question.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Now, bear in mind I can only see the top
of your head over this concept.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Okay, you I'm going to drop the desk.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Good, All good.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
I just like blaying with the right Brendan His question
Do I look at Amanda or you?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
I was just looking at He's looking awkward already. Brendan
His question One, This is from a listener. When you
say people have adelaide legs, what do you really mean
they're athletic legs?
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Yeah, okay, I have a problem with that. When somebody
has a doubt, or they're not serious about something, or
they may not actually believe what they're saying, there'll be
a number of things that happened. The shoulder shrugged, the
eyes and hands usually up towards this, which is indicative
of doubt or uncertainty. So I'm not too sure on that.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
So you're saying, lie, I think.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
When you say athletic, you don't when you say adelaide,
you don't mean athletic.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
I mean athletic.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Okay, it depends on what your definition of.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Where's that buzzy coming from?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
All right, here's another one, Brendan, do you think that
I'm a good driver. Nah.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Yeah, Look what I saw then was his body language
matched what he was saying. So he shook his head
in the nugget while saying no. So, yeah, I believe him.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Oh that's horrendous. Do you think you're superior to the
women who work here?
Speaker 3 (04:35):
No?
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Of course not.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Yeah, I actually believe that.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Really? Yeah, you believe that he does?
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Or does? No? No, I believe he's telling the truth.
And the reason why was sometimes I look for tonal
inflections and changes, and that was very direct. Usually truthful
people will answer the question very clearly, very succinctly, and
very directly, whereas deceptive people will often use an objection,
why would I do something like that? I'm not that
sort of person, But he answered the question very directly.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Here's another one. Would you be a better host of
Sunrise and Matt Shirvington?
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Of course I would. Now this is interesting, right, because
this is an opinion question, So alive by definition is
where somebody wilfully misleads somebody knowing that what they're saying
is factually incorrect. But you're asking him a question that
calls for his subjective opinion. So can your opinion be
wrong or right? Is the question. So yeah, look, he
(05:27):
probably believes that's the case. He doesn't make it a.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Quagging in his boots this morning.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Right, here's one. A lot of people have asked me
to ask you have you had a crush on me
for twenty years?
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Of course I have.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
So what was interesting about that? It's quite an animated response.
And there was hand to face masking, concealment blocking behaviors,
and there was what I call the ant hill. I
remember watching Shane Warn being interviewed once and the question
has become a little bit uncomfortable in the slight shift
in the chair, a slight shrivel in the chair. So
usually if a question makes someone feel uncomfortable, there will
(06:06):
be some sign. In your case, it was to face moving.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
And so SE's uncomfortable with that.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
And also what we know through science is when a
person lies there, blink rate increases six to eightfold after
the delivery of the deception, not necessarily during it. And
that makes sense because you're looking at the interview and
you're thinking, does he or she believe this or are
they buying this story?
Speaker 2 (06:27):
So can you train yourself not to have those traits?
Can you train yourself not to look like you're lying.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
Yeah. Look, I interviewed a clinically diagnosed psychopath, and a
lot of people say, I think psychopathy is one of
the most misunderstood words in the English language. A lot
of people think psychopaths people who go out and kill.
Not necessarily, You've guarantee both of you, at some stage
in your career have worked with somebody whose psychopathic behaviors.
A psychopath, by definition, is somebody who was recklessly oblivious
(06:54):
to the physical or emotional harm they cause somebody. So
if you and I applying for a job, I'll destroy you,
but I'll get the job. I don't care what happens
to you, but I get it. And there's a great
study done in the US and they found that even
psychopaths are not really good lives. The difference is you
or I may feel guilty about if we've done something
wrong with some minor misdemeanor, whereas they don't. They're more
(07:16):
concerned about being apprehended for their crime. But the tells
are pretty much the same. So everything from and usually
one of the things I always look for is breaking
into three parts, verbal, nonverbal, and paralinguistic. Parlinguistic is tone, pitch, voice,
modulation of response latency. When you felt uncomfortable, your tone changed,
(07:37):
and usually there's a slight tunnel change towards the end
of the sentence.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Right, can I ask a man of a question, Oh
don't I don't want you to.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Did you enjoy me in a pair of speedos when
I came onto the set of the living Room?
Speaker 3 (07:48):
No, Actually, I believe one hundred percent that's true. And
the reason why is Professor Paul Ekman. Professor Paul Ekman
did a lot of research into micro expressions. Now, micro
expression takes place within one twenty five to one one
hundredth of a second. And you just showed the facial
expression of shock and horror. So your body language reflected
(08:11):
your exact answer.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Well, have you seen the footage, Steve? Everyone would agree
that was fascinating. Thank you for joining us, Steve. Season
two of Poker Faces out now on stand, Steve, Steve
van Appur, and thank you for joining us.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
I've really enjoyed it.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Thanks, Thanks,
And Amanda jam We've joined in the studio by Steve
Van Apparn Poker Faces out on stan which I'm looking
forward to seeing. That's such a great, great show. But
Steve has come along here today and give us the
ins and outs of detecting. He's a human lie detect he.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Is, and he's worked with police departments and homicide teams
and all kinds of things for a number of years.
We're going to put his skill set to Looking at you, Brendan,
as I ask you some questions, why to me as
you put your hand up and said you'd do it
when you were tired after a meeting one day.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I think I was paying attention.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
I know, so Steve, I think that Jonesy has I
don't think he can play poker because I think he
has such a girning face that he rubs his eyes,
he mimics and move. I think I can tell when you.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Often find that people. That's a tell when someone you
know how you going and they go I'm great, they
touch their face.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Is that really? Is that a talent?
Speaker 3 (01:04):
What is We look for conflict or contradiction between what
a person's saying and what the body language is stating
so there are more neural connections between the hand and
the face than any other part of the body. So
usually it's what we call a masking, concealment, or blocking behavior.
So psychologically our hand goes up to our mouth to
block those false words really yeah, because we feel uncomfortable
(01:25):
about it. But at the last moment will be a
deflection like a nose touch, eye rub or something. If
you've got a decent itch, you give it a scratch
as opposed to just a cursory touch. So also behavioral
psychologists believe it's a way of offset and the anxiety
of being associated with knowing that they're telling a lot.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Because I saw the boss the other day and I said,
has a show going? He said, oh, it's so good
you got You're here forever.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Yeah. But the FBI teacher agents to baseline or benchmark
then look for deviations from that. So if you've got
somebody who always does that and then you ask a question,
they do it again, that tells me nothing what we
look for. Does the question become the threatening stimulus which
engages a change in behavior, and they're evasive, a missive,
dismissive side step the issue, don't answer the question I'm
sure you both have been viewed politicians and they'll ask
(02:10):
you a question and they'll just deflect. Good journalists go
back and ask the same question again because there's usually
a pretty good reason when those red flags are there,
and that is because they feel uncomfortable with.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
A question as just ask you this before we start.
Are women better at detecting lies than men?
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Not only are they better at detecting lies, they're better
at reading body language because you have more evaluation centers
in your brain. So there was a study and they
found that women make better lies because there's less response latency,
arms and ours, and they can include more content, information, structure,
and detail. So sometimes I get people on stage and
(02:48):
I'll say, look, tell me you know a lie whatever,
And what will happen is often women will not only
create a false memory that never existed, they'll also create
a false conversation with someone that never existed. So it's
like lying twice within the one lie, whereas men's lies
are very basic, like you know I'm running late, or
you know no, your bum doesn't look bigger.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Though, Well that's question one.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Well, Steve, I say what do I do? I just
do I just I'm going to ask the question to
ask a question.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Now, bear in mind I can only see the top
of your head over this concept.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Okay, you I'm going to drop the desk.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Good, All good.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
I just like blaying with the right Brendan His question
Do I look at Amanda or you?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
I was just looking at He's looking awkward already. Brendan
His question One, This is from a listener. When you
say people have adelaide legs, what do you really mean
they're athletic legs?
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Yeah, okay, I have a problem with that. When somebody
has a doubt, or they're not serious about something, or
they may not actually believe what they're saying, there'll be
a number of things that happened. The shoulder shrugged, the
eyes and hands usually up towards this, which is indicative
of doubt or uncertainty. So I'm not too sure on that.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
So you're saying, lie, I think.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
When you say athletic, you don't when you say adelaide,
you don't mean athletic.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
I mean athletic.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Okay, it depends on what your definition of.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Where's that buzzy coming from?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
All right, here's another one, Brendan, do you think that
I'm a good driver. Nah.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Yeah, Look what I saw then was his body language
matched what he was saying. So he shook his head
in the nugget while saying no. So, yeah, I believe him.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Oh that's horrendous. Do you think you're superior to the
women who work here?
Speaker 3 (04:35):
No?
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Of course not.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Yeah, I actually believe that.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Really? Yeah, you believe that he does?
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Or does? No? No, I believe he's telling the truth.
And the reason why was sometimes I look for tonal
inflections and changes, and that was very direct. Usually truthful
people will answer the question very clearly, very succinctly, and
very directly, whereas deceptive people will often use an objection,
why would I do something like that? I'm not that
sort of person, But he answered the question very directly.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Here's another one. Would you be a better host of
Sunrise and Matt Shirvington?
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Of course I would. Now this is interesting, right, because
this is an opinion question, So alive by definition is
where somebody wilfully misleads somebody knowing that what they're saying
is factually incorrect. But you're asking him a question that
calls for his subjective opinion. So can your opinion be
wrong or right? Is the question. So yeah, look, he
(05:27):
probably believes that's the case. He doesn't make it a.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Quagging in his boots this morning.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Right, here's one. A lot of people have asked me
to ask you have you had a crush on me
for twenty years?
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Of course I have.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
So what was interesting about that? It's quite an animated response.
And there was hand to face masking, concealment blocking behaviors,
and there was what I call the ant hill. I
remember watching Shane Warn being interviewed once and the question
has become a little bit uncomfortable in the slight shift
in the chair, a slight shrivel in the chair. So
usually if a question makes someone feel uncomfortable, there will
(06:06):
be some sign. In your case, it was to face moving.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
And so SE's uncomfortable with that.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
And also what we know through science is when a
person lies there, blink rate increases six to eightfold after
the delivery of the deception, not necessarily during it. And
that makes sense because you're looking at the interview and
you're thinking, does he or she believe this or are
they buying this story?
Speaker 2 (06:27):
So can you train yourself not to have those traits?
Can you train yourself not to look like you're lying.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
Yeah. Look, I interviewed a clinically diagnosed psychopath, and a
lot of people say, I think psychopathy is one of
the most misunderstood words in the English language. A lot
of people think psychopaths people who go out and kill.
Not necessarily, You've guarantee both of you, at some stage
in your career have worked with somebody whose psychopathic behaviors.
A psychopath, by definition, is somebody who was recklessly oblivious
(06:54):
to the physical or emotional harm they cause somebody. So
if you and I applying for a job, I'll destroy you,
but I'll get the job. I don't care what happens
to you, but I get it. And there's a great
study done in the US and they found that even
psychopaths are not really good lives. The difference is you
or I may feel guilty about if we've done something
wrong with some minor misdemeanor, whereas they don't. They're more
(07:16):
concerned about being apprehended for their crime. But the tells
are pretty much the same. So everything from and usually
one of the things I always look for is breaking
into three parts, verbal, nonverbal, and paralinguistic. Parlinguistic is tone, pitch, voice,
modulation of response latency. When you felt uncomfortable, your tone changed,
(07:37):
and usually there's a slight tunnel change towards the end
of the sentence.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Right, can I ask a man of a question, Oh
don't I don't want you to.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Did you enjoy me in a pair of speedos when
I came onto the set of the living Room?
Speaker 3 (07:48):
No, Actually, I believe one hundred percent that's true. And
the reason why is Professor Paul Ekman. Professor Paul Ekman
did a lot of research into micro expressions. Now, micro
expression takes place within one twenty five to one one
hundredth of a second. And you just showed the facial
expression of shock and horror. So your body language reflected
(08:11):
your exact answer.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Well, have you seen the footage, Steve? Everyone would agree
that was fascinating. Thank you for joining us, Steve. Season
two of Poker Faces out now on stand, Steve, Steve
van Appur, and thank you for joining us.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
I've really enjoyed it.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Thanks, Thanks,
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