Joe Cinque

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
In October nineteen ninety seven, a law student in Canberra, Australia,
made a plan to murder her devoted boyfriend after a
dinner party. But it wasn't a secret. The dinner guests
had all heard rumors about the plan and went along
with morbid curiosity. But in what could be described as

(00:23):
the ultimate bystander effect, nobody warned the young man.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Surely they thought it was a joke.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
Surely everybody knew but him. This is the devastating case
of Joe chinque.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
Oh. I know of this one, but I didn't know
all even already all those.

Speaker 1 (00:42):
Oh well, you are going to need to strap yourself in.
It's kind of like aws.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
Sounded bit like Exactually fuck.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
Hey there, everybody, welcome it to It not another crime podcast.
I'm Georgia, I'm Sammy Peterson.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
I'm a journalist.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
I am not and today if you want to skip
ahead and just listen to the story, do you know
how to do that? What do you do?

Speaker 2 (01:29):
Ge? You look at the time stamp in the show notes.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
God, you're good, you got that right away?

Speaker 2 (01:36):
Thank you. Has the week been?

Speaker 1 (01:38):
It's been okay. I got a new fridge this week,
Actually got a new fridge, and I was feeling I
was still a little bit sick when the new fridge
was coming, and I was like, this is gonna be quick.
It's gonna be fine. Or get the fridge in. It's
gonna be great. And it was a huge fridge. But
I was gonna fit through everything. It's gonna be great.
They got it through the first door, they got it
through the second door, and in my apartment, I have

(01:58):
got a slightly narrower doors.

Speaker 2 (02:01):
I'm looking at it right now that he's actually quite
a narrow door.

Speaker 1 (02:03):
It's quite narrow about that. The first and who sold
it to me knew more about fridges than I know
about anything in my whole life.

Speaker 2 (02:09):
That's so beautiful.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
I love that they were very excited about the free door.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
Give him a shout out, non spawn Harvey Norman, your salespeople, they.

Speaker 1 (02:18):
Were very good with his name.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
Harvey.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
Yes, Harvey Norman was his name.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
That's amazing.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
Yes, And yeah, I basically got it through both doors.
Then the next door actual apartment. Yeah, it just was
not going to fit through unless I took the door off.
So they were like, oh we can't, we just can't
do it. And I was doing that thing of going no,
just try, just try, just knowing that it wasn't just
break the doorframe, break the doorframe, and I designed a

(02:45):
thing to be because theres any damage to the fridge
like blah blah blah, so I had to do that.
Then I could just see it coming forward and that
it just wasn't going to fit in, you know. And
you know, when I well, maybe I just do this.
I do stuff sometimes when I'm like, I know this
isn't going to work, but I'd just like you to try.

Speaker 2 (02:59):
You have to try, because otherwise will always think what if.
And one of my life mottos is I would rather think.
I would rather have a regret than think what if forever.

Speaker 1 (03:08):
Yeah, well you know that. I well, actually, when I
moved into this place, I got dog balls way too.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
Small for digs and no, no, no, no, no, you got
cat bowls.

Speaker 1 (03:18):
I got cat bowles so way too small for digs,
and I kept them for longer than I need to
because my mum told me that they were too small
for him, and I was like, I meant to get
them this size, and I kept them just for ages
and I was just like, no, I'm right.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
I saw them when I first came around here, and
I was because you'd said I've got.

Speaker 1 (03:34):
Dig some new Yeah, I got very excited.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
And I saw them here and I looked at them
and I was like, I think they're meant to be
for cats. But I kept it to myself, and then
you told me a few weeks later. He meant I
got new bowls because I had accidentally bought cat bolls.
But I refused to admit that because my mom she
was which has a thirty three year old man, thirty
four year old man is amazing.

Speaker 1 (03:57):
It's pretty good. But yeah, So the door was then
taken off. So took the door off, but it took
it took a while to get the door off. I
was feeling really sick. And then I put the door
on the wall and straight away Digs ran out and
met the neighbors. He ran into their place. Then I
had to go into the next door neighbors and get
down and he was having the best time ever. And
so Dix is like, I don't think we need a
door anymore.

Speaker 2 (04:18):
Why was this here in the first place you can
visit your neighbors.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
And he was running through the apartment just so free,
just loving everything. It was so cute to watch him
like they were down and they were fine with it,
thank god. But it was very funny watching him going,
I don't need a door.

Speaker 2 (04:34):
We need it. Well, my story for you this week,
what's happened this week is also about clearing the way
for traffic to get past if you will. Yeah, it's
my segue. Yeah, my car got towed because I parked.

Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
So, as you guys know, if you listened last week
and the week before, I was very sick for two weeks.
The first day I was feeling alive again. I went
to the he addresser, got my hair done, was feeling myself.
Posted on Instagram. I feel alive again thanks to Reese
Mitchel Harrison, my hairdresser, not spawn Um. Ten minutes later,

(05:12):
ten minutes after that post, next post, my fucking car
got I went out in front of the addresser. This
sounds made up, I promised to you it is not.
As it opened the door of the hairdresser, I saw
the tow truck leaving in front of me, like it
was literally driving past me with my car on the back.

(05:33):
I hadn't realized it was a movie moment where I
had parked and my hair point went longer than I thought.
This is boring detail. Blah blah blah. My car got
towed because I parked in a place I shouldn't have.
It cost me so much to get it out of
the impound center. And I'm also going to get a
fine like an infringement for having parked in a clear way.
And the freaking toe truck company scratched my new car. Yeah,

(06:00):
and they say they have they don't think they did it.
And they said, well, can you send any photos you
took before or during? And not only photos that have
are from the front and you can't sit scratch. So
that was the most expensive haircut of all time. Thanks
for noticing it.

Speaker 1 (06:13):
But worth it because Reese something Harrison. Reese Mitchell Harrison
does the best cuts you've ever seen. He runs a
place called Just Cuts. No, he doesn't, and he does
some of the finest hairs from Just Cut. Georgia Lovely
Haircuts haircuts she has lovely haircuts from Reese Mitchell Jordan's Mitchell.

Speaker 2 (06:35):
Rich Mitchell Harrison. He doesn't work at us Carrison.

Speaker 1 (06:38):
It was Just Cuts and he does some of the
greatest cuts you money can bow. He works at Melbourne
Central No, he doesn't. Georgia parked on the tram tracks.

Speaker 2 (06:45):
No I didn't, No, but you.

Speaker 1 (06:46):
But yeah, it's so frustrating because I had that happened
to me once and I had just moved to Melbourne.
I didn't know where the car was.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
Well yeah, I mean even if you have lived in Melbourne,
if you've ever had it toad before, you don't orries Google?
Where does my car? Hey? Google? Where does cargo went to?

Speaker 1 (07:03):
Where does cargo to?

Speaker 2 (07:04):
Anyway? So I'm angry because I was sick and I
spent a lot of money on well, to be fair,
I spent a normal amount of money on my haircut,
but I spent a lot of money in my car
just for it to get scratched. And I'm going to
put that I have in my Poudrey Peeves list for today,
which we forgot last week. Clearways, but I've just decided
to do it as a Harriet.

Speaker 1 (07:24):
Hate Harriet hate, because you're furious, aren't you?

Speaker 2 (07:28):
Just?

Speaker 1 (07:29):
You're furious? Hey, everybody, we'hen getting to this episode really soon.
But if you want, you can send us an email
just another company dot com dot au. You can leave
us a voicemail that's called a speak Pipe. All the
links are below.

Speaker 2 (07:43):
Lead said as an email at Sammy it just another
company dot com. I got the email address right though.
Follow us on Instagram and TikTok getting on another crime podcast.
You must leave us the five star rating him than
a Slaver survive star.

Speaker 1 (08:01):
Yes, thank you so much, everybody. Enjoy this week's episode
Sammy Special. Today it's a Sami Special. Enjoy the riffins.

Speaker 2 (08:12):
No spont no if you want to spawn though emas
at Sammy just another company.

Speaker 1 (08:22):
This case has affected me in more ways than I
could have imagined. I picked up the book by Helen Ghana,
Joe Chinkway's Consolation, after going to buy Helen Ghana's latest
book on the mushroom cook Aaron Patterson our favorite. This
story is devastating and it's honestly a case that I
cannot stop thinking about. I read the book quickly, I

(08:45):
listened to anything I could, and I feel like my
mind was pretty made up about how I felt about
what happened. I'd love to hear your opinion, Ge, and
I'd also love to hear what listeners think.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
Brinita tells the story first.

Speaker 1 (08:57):
Okay, okay, you know you're right you are right, Thank you.

Speaker 2 (09:00):
I usually.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
Joe was murdered. What I didn't expect to learn was
how many complex feelings I had about the killer and
the friend who helped her.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
Oh okay.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
In fact, it resonated with me on a personal level,
with my own brother developing drug psychosis and completely changing
as a brother I once loved and grew up with.
I cannot recommend the book highly enough. As always, I
commit my undying love for Helen Ghana and how she
can find the human in people who were often deemed monsters.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
It's interesting to say that, because I mean just that
sentence itself, a lot of people would say, well, no,
there's no human in here.

Speaker 1 (09:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:39):
Yeah, that's how beautifully she writes, and how I suppose
in depth she goes into her story.

Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yes, and she looks at things a different way. Yeah.
This is a story of a man's life who was
taken too soon, far too soon, and a complex look
into the lives and why from what we can glean,
the pair did it and why no one did anything
to stop it.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
My God, tell me what happened?

Speaker 1 (10:04):
Well, do you know a lot about this case already? No?

Speaker 2 (10:06):
I know that a girlfriend, I think it was like
a murder, like a suicide pack.

Speaker 1 (10:11):
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, she backed out.

Speaker 2 (10:14):
That's about all I remember.

Speaker 1 (10:15):
Okay, well we'll go into it, and I really want
to hear your thoughts on it. Yeah, because it is.
It's really fascinating and there's a lot. There's a lot
in here. Joe Chinkwe was a twenty six year old
engineer living with his girlfriend, a new Singh in their
terrace house in Canberra.

Speaker 2 (10:32):
Yeah, I remember, I remember a news name.

Speaker 1 (10:34):
Yeah. Yeah, there's an interesting part of this, but I
think it's kind of glossed over when I read the
trans script of the Call to the Ambulance. I'd like
you to keep in mind what kind of house they
lived in. Joe was working full time and a new
was finishing her final year of law. Joe was killed.

Speaker 2 (10:54):
That's ironic, I know.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yeah, Well, all the people that were at the dinner
party were actually lawyers. Oh my god, Joe was killed
by a lethal injection of heroin while he was unconscious
from rohipnol, which she had drugged him with in his coffee.

Speaker 2 (11:09):
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (11:10):
I'm going to refer to the book for a transcript
of the Call to the ambulance. This is what Halen
Ghana writes as the opening to that transcript.

Speaker 2 (11:20):
He's even getting out.

Speaker 1 (11:21):
His physical book, like I put a little post it note.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
Oh my god, you're so cute, just like my father.
Why is there an apple on the cover.

Speaker 1 (11:29):
We'll get into it. A bad apple to it?

Speaker 2 (11:31):
Well you hey apple asle Okay, very big apple.

Speaker 1 (11:36):
The house he died in on Sunday twenty sixth of
October nineteen ninety seven was not far from the Canberra
Ambulance headquarters. Oh, the paramedics would have been able to
reach him in a flash, but it took the dispatcher
almost twenty minutes to get to the right address from
the hysterical young woman who placed the zero zero zero call,

(11:57):
the triple zero call. Like all emergency calls, this one
was recorded. This is the male dispatcher. Okay, and the
phone number you're ringing from. Could I get an ambulance please?
I have a person potentially overdosed on heroine. Potentially overdosed.
Well he's not. He's vomiting everywhere, blood stuff. He's vomiting

(12:18):
blood right. Okay, what's the address? Is that a bad sign?
What's the address? Can you hang on, Please just tell me.
Is that a bad sign? That's well, it's not good
if he's vomiting blood? Oh is he going to be? Okay?
I don't know. I'll send an ambulance for them to
check him out. Fair enough. What's the address? Thirty Antil Street?

(12:43):
Is that a flat or a house? Oh? It's a flat?
What number is Antil Street? What number in Antel Street?
What's going to happen? What's the flat number? Oh? Shit, shit,
listen to me, says apparently medic again. Oh hang on,
what am I going to do? Settle down? Settle down? Okay,

(13:07):
what am I going to do? Well? If you tell
me the address, I'll get an ambulance out to you.
Will he be? Okay? Oh?

Speaker 2 (13:15):
This is so frustrating.

Speaker 1 (13:16):
I don't know. We'll have to get an ambulance to
you to assess him. What is the number of the
flat in Antel is is? Oh shit? What is the
number of the flat in Antel Street? It's seventy nine?
Maybe flat thirty seventy nine? Is that correct? Yeah? No,

(13:38):
hang on, flat thirty? Hang on? Where's the ambulance. The
ambulance is at Dixon. Now just calm down. What's your name.
What's your name? Oh shit, he's vomiting blood? What and
the dispatcher again says, what's your name? I know? Who says?
Is he going to die? What is your name? Tell me?

(14:01):
Tell me? Please? Cries? What is your name? Oh? Oh god,
Olivia says anw oh what is your name? Please? Olivia? Olivia?
Oh fuck? Hang on? Hang on? What's the number you're
ringing from? Hang on? His heart's still beating? Good right, Okay,

(14:23):
just settle down, for God's sake, says the dispatcher. Oh God.
To be pretty uncommon, you'd think for a dispatcher to
say that flat thirty seventy nine Antil Street. Okay, we've
got the flat thirty seventy nine, No, seventy nine Antil Street.
What's the flat number? It's a townhouse? What it's seventy

(14:44):
nine in Antil Street? Yeah, yeah, get here quickly. All right,
we've got someone there. Now. Now that was not the
only call that was made that night, but it's a
really interesting call because a new calls herself Olivia in
that call, name of time a number of times. And
as we heard before, they lived in a townhouse.

Speaker 2 (15:04):
And it was her address she lived there.

Speaker 1 (15:06):
I lived there. Yeah, yeah, which could be you know,
she was like, what happened?

Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yeah, exactly, because the way that reads is as if
she didn't really know she was there for a dinner party.
She didn't really know the address she was at, so
she was trying to find out what it was. And
I mean, god, touch would. I don't know what it's
like to be in that situation where you're panicking and
calling an ambulance. But I mean it's very easy to
say from this point of view, but you would think
you could just spit out the address if you knew it.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
You think you'd be able to Yeah, it was your
own home. On June eleventh, nineteen seventy one, Joe was
born to Nino and Maria Chinque in Newcastle, New South Wales.
He was named after his grandfather, Giuseppe or Joe for sure.
That a beautiful Yeah, it was a way to carry
on his heritage. They thought she most that's right, German heritage.

(15:55):
They thought he was the most beautiful baby they'd ever seen,
do you.

Speaker 2 (15:59):
I mean most parents say that about that. Mine did
not about me. What because my older sister Katie was
the most beautiful baby anyone's ever seen. And then I
came out and my mom was like, oh, she does
not look like she does look like The reason my
godmother is my godmother is because she was like, oh,
my god, she's beautiful. And Mom was like, no, she's not.
And I don't like it. And I'll listening to this too, actually,

(16:21):
and I was like, yeah, she is, and Mama, well
you can have.

Speaker 1 (16:26):
Joe's parents immigrated to Australia from Italy four years prior.

Speaker 2 (16:30):
I knew it in.

Speaker 1 (16:31):
He said, Germany. In nineteen seventy five, Nino and Maria
welcomed their second boy, Anthony. With two boys, the house
was bustling, often described as chaotic. It's my worst night,
toys and games all over the floor like digs. I
was living with digs. But Nino and Maria loved everything
about it. They were happy to have their two boys.

(16:53):
They lived in a red brick house in Newcastle. Newcastle
is a harbor city in the Australian state of New
South Wales. It's located one hundred and sixty two kilometers
or one hundred and one miles from Sydney. Joe's mum
was a housewife and his father worked as a tradesman.
Joe saw that his dad. Joe saw what his dad

(17:14):
had done for a living, and he ended up working
at the same company that he and his grandfather and
his father had all worked out. Oh my god, before
they knew it. Joe and Anthony were young men, growing
up all too soon from Marea's liking, but they would
all have family dinners every single night because they all
stayed close by. Joe was a gifted athlete, playing tennis

(17:38):
and soccer. There were trophies littered all around the family home.
He also radiated confidence and energy. He was a great
student and a fantastic friend, often the one to bury
the hatchet in any quarrel and find a way to
move on. So two friends were kind of finding he'd
be the one to go to. He was extremely well

(17:58):
liked by everyone who met him. You just couldn't help
but be drawn to him. He wanted to study architecture,
but also didn't want a career that would keep him
inside all day, strapped to the desk, so instead he
decided to take up a career in civil engineering. Wow.
In nineteen ninety four, at just twenty four years old,

(18:18):
he graduated university. His parents had bought him a ticket
overseas as a gift for graduating.

Speaker 2 (18:24):
Oh nice marine.

Speaker 1 (18:26):
He really wanted to go traveling before starting his working life,
and at the time broke it off with his girlfriend, Rebecca,
who everyone kind of thought he'd end up with.

Speaker 2 (18:35):
Oh god, that's not very nice. Like see, I want
to go.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
Yeah, I know, I don't know if you said it
like that, but that's probably dead. After Joe died, Rebecca
turned up to the family home and told Maria that
she just wished Joe had loved her like she had
loved him. I was so heartbreaking. She bought flowers and
told her that.

Speaker 2 (18:53):
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (18:55):
When he got back, he found a job at a
civil engineering company as a project manager, which was close
to his family in Newcastle.

Speaker 2 (19:02):
I want to get sorry. I wanted to look at
what Joe looks like. I'd like to have a visual
of him. Yeah, of course, I actually know what a
new thing looks like. But isn't that terrible? I know
what she looks like, and I've actually got in my
notes the name a new sin for an episode to do.
Oh really, not Joe's. Isn't that terrible? We always talk
about how you know that shouldn't be the case. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:24):
Yeah. Maria, Joe's mother said in Helen Ganner's book that
Joe's father and grandfather worked at the same engineering company.
Like I said before, so it's a big over you know,
International Corporation.

Speaker 2 (19:36):
Oh yes, yeah, I'm looking at him. H yeah. They
look very I mean, this is such a boring basic
thing to say. They look like a couple in the nineties. Yeah,
like in a kind of mid to late twenties, a.

Speaker 1 (19:47):
Good looking couple.

Speaker 2 (19:48):
Yeah, very good. Okay, Yeah, he looks quite American.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
He does, doesn't he.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
He's very like chiseled jaw a bit like.

Speaker 1 (19:55):
Like Italian American. Doesn't mean like he's got a very
Italian kind of face. If he didn't have enough to do,
like you know, all week, he'd find he'd find himself
really restless. Maria kind of noticed this with him from
a young age. He would hang out with friends, go
to the pub, or put in extra hours at work
with his friends. He would regularly hang out at a

(20:17):
local pub called the Brewery. That's when he met twenty
two year old a new Thing on two only twenty
two at the time. Yeah. Anu was born in India
on September third, nineteen seventy two. Her parents relocated to
Newcastle when she was really young. Both of her parents
were doctors and push their children to do well in

(20:37):
their studies. And you had completed her schooling and got
a HSC. Did I say that right?

Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (20:45):
But HS and HSC to go into economics and law
at ANU, which is the Australian National University in Canberra.
She also called the Act Act Act the.

Speaker 2 (21:01):
Act of going to University a little bit of trivia
for our international listeners because I would has it. I
guess most people outside of Australia don't know this. Canberra
is actually our capital city, not Sydney.

Speaker 1 (21:15):
Yeah, and that it was because the two were fighting
it out, won't they.

Speaker 2 (21:18):
Melbourne and Sydney were fighting it out as we always do,
even two hundred years ago we were, And so they
just picked a They just made a city in the middle.

Speaker 1 (21:26):
And you know what's it is a lovely place, Canberra.
I quite like Canberra, but there is nothing around it.

Speaker 2 (21:31):
No, it's yeah, it's in them.

Speaker 1 (21:32):
It's it's in the middle, just.

Speaker 2 (21:34):
A city that they was not even in the middle.
It's closer to Sydney. But that's a very Melbourne person
being of me.

Speaker 1 (21:38):
To say they got it close up. Yeah, So she
moved down there and started her degree. So that a
New moved to Canberra and started her degree in the
early nineties, but didn't cope living away from home. She
called her mother a lot and would go back home frequently.
And it was extremely attractive, high achieving, and very well spoken.

(22:00):
She had a focus on going to the gym and
was an obsessive dieter. Her parents ended up moving to
Sydney and lived and worked there, and You graduated in
economics and her plan was to go back and finish
her law degree.

Speaker 2 (22:15):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (22:16):
When Anew and Joe met at the brewery, they immediately
hit it off. Anew was back home for a short
period of time, their two friendship groups happened to know
each other and they got chatting. Anew had a boyfriend
at the time who she lived with in Canberra.

Speaker 2 (22:32):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (22:33):
His name was Simon Walsh. One report stated that he
found out about the fling and ended it. Another stated
that the more time Joe and a New spent together,
the less she could see Simon and it eventually fizzled out.
So I don't really know which one is true. There
it seemed like yeah, he found out about it big
blow up, or that they stayed together for a while

(22:54):
and adventually there.

Speaker 2 (22:55):
It sounds like there was some kind of crossover with
some sort of crossover meeting Joe was the reason she
Diamon ended.

Speaker 1 (23:00):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (23:01):
Yet whatever the timeline was.

Speaker 1 (23:02):
That's right. Yeah, but a New was really heartbroken by
the breakup with Simon. Senior parole Officer Naomi Buick had
spent hours interviewing a New and said that she had
terminated a pregnancy while with Simon, which had a lasting
and traumatic effect on her.

Speaker 2 (23:18):
Oh sad.

Speaker 1 (23:19):
She was particularly hurt by a claim he made calling
her intellectually inferior. Oh ye, which which is what she
said about others. So it really hit her heart, she
said about everybody. Yeah, it had a really big impact
on her. It was a huge turning point in her behavior.

Speaker 2 (23:37):
So she's allogical, other people intellectually inferior. But if someone
calls her that, yeah she was crazy.

Speaker 1 (23:43):
Yeah, okay, dish it out, but you can't take.

Speaker 2 (23:45):
Care not me and that crowd.

Speaker 1 (23:50):
I didn't growl and I didn't cut that out of
the podcast. By late nineteen ninety five, she developed bolimia.
She spiraled into a deep depression and move back in
with her parents. She wanted liposunction and refused to admit
that she was suffering. She had a diet of Coca cola,
tim tams and she would smoke. She also dabbled in drugs.

(24:13):
So she actually I think that her dad actually went
through with the liposuction, which there was no shed went
through with it. Oh sorry, So I actually paid for
her to have liposuctions. So she was really kind of
the way that she spoke to people. She kind of
seemed like she could kind of get her way with
anything that she said, and there was nothing to her.

(24:35):
She was the skinniest person and actually had liposunction.

Speaker 2 (24:38):
Oh, I just looked up. The photo is a understand that.

Speaker 1 (24:41):
Joe had been in an awful car accident with his
family at the age of just eight years old. His mother, Maria,
had a debilitating foot injury, and so Joe acted as
caretaker during this time. He was soon to become a
caretaker once again to a new They would talk on
the phone dozens of times per day, dozens dozens, so

(25:03):
when he was in Newcastle and she was in Canberra,
a call about fifteen times a day.

Speaker 2 (25:07):
Well, that's toxic.

Speaker 1 (25:08):
Joe was now by her side. In her condition, it
did not show signs of improvements. One of the things
that I was often commented that Anew would say that
she was really sick, she had something, and Joe would
have to continually go back to Camber to look after her.

Speaker 2 (25:20):
I've known a couple like that. Yeah, it's really yeah,
Well I didn't end in murder, my lord, No I didn't.

Speaker 1 (25:24):
But no, what did you look at me and the
iron growl? No?

Speaker 2 (25:30):
I cut that out of a podcast too.

Speaker 1 (25:32):
Joe had fallen head over heels for a new and
it was a strikingly beautiful person. Like I mentioned before,
a new and Joe would talk for hours and hours
at a time. By nineteen ninety six, they were dating exclusively. Nice.

Speaker 2 (25:47):
Nice.

Speaker 1 (25:48):
They spent It's like I looked at you like.

Speaker 2 (25:50):
A caused and he looked at me.

Speaker 1 (25:53):
Nice.

Speaker 2 (25:54):
You never't been talking about that exclusively? Ready? One? Two three? Nice.

Speaker 1 (26:01):
They spent most of their free time together and from
the outside looked like a very happy couple. Joe's family
sat down for dinner with Anew to finally meet her.
They wanted to know kind of who this person was
that their son was spending all this time with Joe's
parents believed she was intelligent, but thought that something was
a bit off about her.

Speaker 2 (26:21):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (26:22):
She brought up a lot of odd topics, talking a
lot about the afterlife, and also spoke about a previous
relationship in great detail, saying there was almost a little incestuous.
It was very strange, but her parents passed it off
as someone who liked to shock people with different out
their ideas.

Speaker 2 (26:43):
Hang on, I'm going to need to ask more about
the ancestuous comment. There was a relationship with his family
was incestuous.

Speaker 1 (26:50):
There was nothing more about it. But she described their
sex life in ing detail, I think, kind of saying
that he was like a brother to her. It was
like Joe didn't say anything at the time and continued eating,
so she just kind of spoke about all of this
in great detail.

Speaker 2 (27:07):
Kind of insinuating he is used to it, she speaks
like that all the time. Or maybe he felt uncomfortable
so just didn't get involved in the conversation.

Speaker 1 (27:13):
Yeah, well, it is kind of alleged that he felt
uncomfortable and that she was quite controlling. She did all
the talking.

Speaker 2 (27:19):
There's nothing wrong with that, Sammy way looking in the
iron growling and growl for Joe's friends, Anu was confident
and domineering.

Speaker 1 (27:27):
It was pushing Joe into the background. He was becoming
less sociable and let Anew take the lead in every
single conversation. It didn't help when the Chinquas found out
that Anew was keeping their relationship a secret from her parents.
They wanted her to prioritize her studies over boys. Joe
instructed his parents to say if they ever met, the

(27:49):
Sings to say that he was just a friend of
a news brother, which is.

Speaker 2 (27:54):
Interesting because why would they meet if it weren't because
they were dating.

Speaker 1 (27:58):
Well, I don't know. In case they just dropped in Canberra.
Maybe I don't know that because I was living together.
They ended up living together.

Speaker 2 (28:06):
You know, I think I reckon the only partner I
don't know, the only like parents of a partner My
parents ever met was like at you know, maybe a
twenty first birthday party, Like until I was living my
parents would crushing. Yes, yes they weren't invited and made
them but didn't invite them.

Speaker 1 (28:26):
So the fact that that you know, she didn't want
to say anything about Joe to any way they were
living together. Yeah. It made Joe's parents feel a little
bit off. They didn't like that, and Neew wasn't telling
anyone about Joe and making him seem really small. They
noticed that Joe wasn't quite himself and would now fade
away in the background anytime Joe, anytime I knew was around,

(28:49):
and New would interrupt every time they tried to talk
with Joe. One time when Nino the dand was trying
to have a private conversation with Joe, and You walked
up behind Joe, hugged him, kissed him, and pulled him away.
He seemed to the family that Anew was always there
to snatch Joe away.

Speaker 2 (29:08):
Right, There's not a lot I hate more than that
level of yuck jealousy. Yeah, I mean murder. I do
hate you.

Speaker 1 (29:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
First um, in no particular order.

Speaker 1 (29:19):
Asual, their nightly dinner was often interrupted by a new
and New eventually went back to Canberra. So this is
this is you know, the timeline here is that she
kept coming back to Newcastle at different points. She come
back for a summer period or any holiday. She'd come
back she wanted to be with her mum, and then
she eventually went back to Canberra, four hundred and fifty

(29:41):
kilometers south, which meant that Joe and her couldn't see
each other as.

Speaker 2 (29:46):
Often didn't realize it was that far.

Speaker 1 (29:48):
It's a really long way from Yeah. Yeah. He would
drive five and a half hours to see her on
a Friday and return early Monday morning to start work
hardly sleeping.

Speaker 2 (29:58):
Oh my god, that's a good boy friend.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
Very good boyfriend, very good boyfriend. A new called Joe
every night, often during the family meal, sometimes after. He
would go and talk to her every time she called.

Speaker 2 (30:12):
No, sorry, rude, if you're having dinner with your family
to take the call.

Speaker 1 (30:15):
Later, Maria thought. Marie would often take the phone off
him and tell a knew to let him eat his meal.

Speaker 2 (30:22):
I am like Maria, Maria's great because it's from my
said story Marie. I just met a girl named Maria.

Speaker 1 (30:32):
That's beautiful. Because of all the calls, their phone bill skyrocketed.
The calls were excessive, not to mention the expense. Joe
was spending every weekend to spend time with her back
in Canberra, and Niel often complained about being sick, which
crippled her. From time to time. He would drop everything
when she complained about being sick. Maria worried that Joe

(30:55):
was exhausting himself and finding it hard to juggle everything
with all the other things had going on in his life.
Maria tried to warn Joe not to let Anew control him,
but he said, don't make me choose. I love you,
but she needs me. Oh that broke Maria's heart.

Speaker 2 (31:11):
That breaks my heart.

Speaker 1 (31:12):
I am Maria, You're Maria. In September nineteen ninety six,
Joe finally decided that he was going to move in
to be with a new He was going to move
to Canberra. They moved into a semi detached townhouse together
and even opened up a joint bank account called ANEW
and Joe's marriage account whoa as while Anew was studying,

(31:34):
Joe was going to have to be the financial provider.
Their house was in a bustling part of town near
the university, in a place called Downer.

Speaker 2 (31:44):
In huge Downer, it sounds like a real upper of
a town.

Speaker 1 (31:48):
Hey, you should you should? You should say that there?
I think I did nobe, you should say it there? Ok?
In Newcastle. At the end of the semester, the couple
spent three weeks with Joe's family in Newcastle, but Maria
did not like her. She continued to feel that there
was something very strange about her.

Speaker 2 (32:07):
I mean, I'm going to play devil's advocatire and he's
giving a little bit of Italian mother loving her son
and not wanting another woman to take her away as
well as Yeah, New sounds a bit alarm a lot
for a couple in the early twenties.

Speaker 1 (32:22):
Absolutely. Yeah. Once back in Canberra, things took a downward spiral?

Speaker 2 (32:27):
Was it a bit of a downer?

Speaker 1 (32:28):
Nice one again? You did it again?

Speaker 2 (32:30):
Thank you?

Speaker 1 (32:31):
Yes, it was okay. A New continued to be hyper
fixated on her weight, excessively, going to the gym and
watching what she was eating.

Speaker 2 (32:40):
Well, that's sad, it's that's a she's got a mental disorder.

Speaker 1 (32:43):
Yeah, absolutely yeah. She was suffering from bolimia and like
I said before, her parents she she kind of asked
her parents time and time again for liposuction. Her dad
allegedly gave in and helped in nineteen ninety seven, and
Knew was complaining about chronic fatigue and muscle aches. Her

(33:03):
health was her obsession and Knew constantly had something wrong
with her, that she was fixated on but it was
all psychological. She approached Maria to speak about her car
accident and how she dealt with the problem she faced
with her foot. She noticed that Anew was really fidgety
that time and thought that perhaps she was having some

(33:25):
kind of drug withdrawal. Robert, the Chinque's godson was really
concerned about Joe during his visits to Canberra. He watched
the spark disappear from Joe's eyes. By mid nineteen ninety seven,
Anneu was convinced that she had contracted AIDS, which made

(33:46):
her focus more and more on her health. Oh God,
so she always had a new fixation of how sick
she was and thought it was always something happening.

Speaker 2 (33:53):
Is that like a bit of insinuation, maybe some Monchausen syndrome?

Speaker 1 (33:57):
Yes, yeah, they could be that. But also you know
that there is some kind of drug effect there.

Speaker 2 (34:03):
As well, and medical anxiety.

Speaker 1 (34:05):
Absolutely yeah, as she believed her body was shutting down. God,
she was furious with Joe that didn't seem to care
enough about her many ailments. When the results came back
negative about the AIDS, she continued on various other diagnosises, diagnosesses, diagnosis, diagnosis.
Her parents attempted to have her admitted to a psychiatric facility,

(34:29):
but she wasn't seen as a threat to herself or
others and could not be admitted against her will. And
this is this is what happens. You know, once you're
over eighteen here in Australia, you cannot be admitted anywhere.

Speaker 2 (34:42):
Against will unless you're deemed.

Speaker 1 (34:44):
Unless you're deemed unfit. Yeah, you can't make choices for yourself.
And who was taking ipp acac for a period of time.
She said that Joe would point I'm going to explain that.
Don't you worry about how Aha? She said that Joe
had pointed out out this drug to her. Now it
has been said that perhaps Joan mentioned the drug at
a dinner party in passing as it's what supermodels take

(35:08):
to keep weight off. Oh, this is a definition I
found of the drug. Syrup of Ippacac, or simply ippocac,
is a drug that was once widely used as an
ex expertrrent acceptaurrent ecce and a rapid acting emetic. It

(35:29):
is obtained from the dried rhizome and roots of the
epicaquana plant, from which it derives its name. It is
no longer regularly used in medicine.

Speaker 2 (35:41):
So it like an appetite of presidtism.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
Yeah yeah, and kind of like a weight loss thing.
So a lot of supermodels did it to keep the
weight off, you know, And the big thing here was that,
and it was like, oh, we mentioned it as a
suggestion for me, But it later went on to say
that he probably just mentioned it at one time and
she thought, I'll use that. And Neil had been taking

(36:06):
a lot of drugs for recreational use at the time.
Drugs were really big at the time at ANU and
Canberra in general. She would take ecstasy with her previous
boyfriend Simon. She would stop when she went home to
her parents and would often have withdrawals at the time.
Oh dear, her parents are both doctors as well, so
they've kind of would have seen what was happening. At

(36:28):
the time, Anew had some building resentment, stating that Joe
didn't do anything around the house and that she felt
that she was a housewife. She made another complaint to
the university counselor, saying that Joe had hit her, yelled
at her, and abused her. He had blamed her for
hitting her, and that she couldn't leave him because he

(36:49):
was financially supporting her. This took place a few months
before Joe's death.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
Do we know that was allegations?

Speaker 1 (36:57):
Oh yeah, yeah, since come out and it was sentenced
that she made that up?

Speaker 2 (37:04):
Is in she admitted to making it up or other
people up said she.

Speaker 1 (37:07):
Made it up. Yeah, she told the counselor and that
she was building a case. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:12):
Oh Jesus, okay, I was going to have a believe
women moment if other people had said, no, actually made
that up?

Speaker 1 (37:19):
Yeah, no, no, no, it was definitely yeah, something that she
made up and knew then believed that she had a
degenerative muscle wasting disease that was fatal and believed that
she only had a few months to live.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
Does that a bit Munchausen, doesn't It does if she's
really believing she's got all these things that are wrong.
Oh dear, is it?

Speaker 1 (37:40):
Or is it?

Speaker 2 (37:41):
Yeah? Munchausen by proxy is when a parent or someone
else but Munchausen.

Speaker 1 (37:47):
Is well, I don't like a hypercontract.

Speaker 2 (37:50):
Yeah yeah, maybe it's just that, To be fair, I
think Munchausen is more you kind of believe you've got
illness and that actually wheels.

Speaker 1 (37:57):
It on, right.

Speaker 2 (37:59):
I think I'm wrong, dear listeners, But yeah, maybe it's
just HYPOCHONDI Yeah, yeah, like she just kind of felt
like she had everything.

Speaker 1 (38:08):
She didn't tell her parents what it was exactly, just
that she was sick. Her parents continued to encourage her
to go to the doctor time and time again. She
told her friends, but her friends kind of thought that
it was a tall tale. So she was known for
exaggerate exactly.

Speaker 2 (38:27):
Okay, she's got something else again, now.

Speaker 1 (38:28):
Something else again. Yeah, it was a figment of her imagination,
but it was like she believed it. She started giving
away her CDs and clothes. She showered up to seven
times a day. Oh god, she's really obsessive, really obsessive.
She believed that she got the disease from taking ippocac
and blamed Joe for that.

Speaker 2 (38:49):
Oh dear.

Speaker 1 (38:50):
She actually told some people that she was going to
kill Joe. Okay, she also told several people that she
was going to kill herself, and new made several attempts
to get a gun. She went, god, yeah, so she
wanted to kill herself with a gun. That didn't happen,
and so then she decided she'll go to different dealers
to get heroin and have a lethal overdose of heroin.

(39:11):
Someone told her that that's actually a pain free way to.

Speaker 2 (39:15):
Do it, and she had never like she wasn't a
heroin user.

Speaker 1 (39:18):
No, well, yeah, no, I don't think so. I think
that was the first time she did heroin. I mean, yeah,
other drugs, but not so.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
It was kind of like, I've never done heroin, so
it would be quite easy to overdose on that. Maybe
it was the thought she had.

Speaker 1 (39:29):
Well, someone told her that that's how you can kill yourself. Yeah,
so saying that if you actually had a lethal dose,
it would be the best way to go be pain free.
God and Knew would allegedly talk about it, how much
smarter she was than Joe and constantly put him down
in front of everyone.

Speaker 2 (39:45):
Again, because you felt so good when your ex boyfriend
did that to you. Let's go and do it to
your co.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
Let's never think about that. She does far worse, but
let's ever think about that as well. Joe was getting
sick of the relationship and wanted an out. He was
starting to make plans to break it off. He had
purchased a new car, which was the first part of
his exit plan. And the first time you could see
the joy back in his eyes. Many have since stated

(40:09):
that a new knew. Who knew? That's a hard one there, Sorry,
everyone knew that he was going to leave. In fact,
in his diary he had a note that he was
going to pack up and leave. On the Monday, Joe's mother, Maria,
had noticed that most of his things were gone in
the house, like he had already been packing up and

(40:29):
trying to leave. And Who spoke quite openly.

Speaker 2 (40:33):
Sorry, I'm so sorry. He was just crawling along the ground,
but with his leg both his front and back legs
stretched out as far as he could possibly do, Like
that's kind of.

Speaker 1 (40:42):
Cool, say no comment. And wh spoke quite openly about
killing herself and a suicide packed between her and Joe.
She would speak quite openly about it, but no one
ever paid attention.

Speaker 2 (40:58):
So, I'm so sorry, I'm laughing, He digs, and I'll
stop looking at him, obviously not laughing about this story.
I'm so sorry, bless you more so.

Speaker 1 (41:06):
Yeah, she spoke openly about wanting to take her own
life with a suicide pact with Joe. She would speak
quite openly about it, but no one paid any attention.
To her anymore.

Speaker 2 (41:16):
Oh god, it sounds like a proper boy who cried
wolf at this.

Speaker 1 (41:19):
Point, absolutely, and who was diagnosed with a personality disorder
and depression. But a lot of people around her said
that she was just being dramatic and often lied about
what was going on. Oh God, and what she was
going to do at that point as well.

Speaker 2 (41:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:33):
In nineteen ninety seven, a new told a friend that
she hated Joe and wanted to go on a rampage
and kill Joe, her ex boyfriend Simon, and all of
the doctors that had misdiagnosed her and did not take
her seriously. She said, I studied psychiatric texts and it
wouldn't be too hard to convince someone you're insane.

Speaker 2 (41:53):
Oh, oh god, I'm sorry. Like I'm flicking between oh no,
the poor thing and oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:04):
She visited the library with her close friend and fellow student,
martav Row. Great name, great name. A little bit about MARTYVI.
Martive was an only child until the birth of a
much younger sibling who was disabled. The family's hopes then
focused on Martive and all pressure that seemed to be
placed on her. She was a great tennis player growing

(42:25):
up and a good student, although she didn't get high
enough a high enough score after high school to get
into medicine, so decided she'd do law instead.

Speaker 2 (42:36):
Imagine a law I guess I'll just do law.

Speaker 1 (42:39):
Her father was a well respected teacher and her mother
a doctor. They both retired by the time that Martivi
was at in university, but by the time the trial
began they both had to start working again to pay
for her legal fees and a defense. In the family
home there was strictly no smoking and no drinking.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
Is it's a friend of our news, he's a friend
of a nurse? Yep.

Speaker 1 (43:02):
Martivi was the quieter, more studious of her in Anu,
and she followed her blindly. It was since been kind
of stated that she was a bit of a doormat
and was constantly walked on by stronger people. So Anu
and Martave sourced a book about the individual's right to die.

(43:22):
It contained information about assisted suicide and legislation. They photocopied
several pages of this book. During this time, her parents
tried to have her committed to a psychiatric facility again
without her consent. This time this had to go through
a magistrate, and before this long long approval process. Joe

(43:45):
Chinque would be dead.

Speaker 2 (43:47):
Oh shit.

Speaker 1 (43:58):
Her parents tried to have her committed to a psychiatric
facility again without her consent. This time this had to
go through a magistrate. And before this long long approval process,
Joe chinkwe would be dead, oh shit? And who told
several people that Joe and her would be overdosing together

(44:18):
in a suicide pact. She and Joe, sorry, sorry, sorry
that she and Joe would be overdosing in a suicide pact.
But Joe had no idea about this.

Speaker 2 (44:28):
But that's not a suicide packed then suicide.

Speaker 1 (44:31):
She was telling people to get them on kind of
so that they would not raise aus ficion with Joe,
which is just sorry.

Speaker 2 (44:38):
So she was saying, it's a suicide pact, so don't
say anything.

Speaker 1 (44:42):
Don't say anything, Okay, far out.

Speaker 2 (44:45):
So it's obviously not a suicide pact, but that's what
she was telling us.

Speaker 1 (44:49):
She told other people that she was going to drug
him so that he was not aware that she was
killing herself. So an another part of what she was
saying was I'm going to kill myself with Joe would
get too upset, So what I'm gonna do is I'm
gonna drug him with row hipnole in his coffee. He's
nightly coffee. He's one of tho people that has coffee.

Speaker 2 (45:07):
Weirdo.

Speaker 1 (45:07):
I don't understand.

Speaker 2 (45:08):
No, no, no, no Italian Italian.

Speaker 1 (45:10):
It's Italian, not a weirdo Italian.

Speaker 2 (45:12):
Sometimes they're confused.

Speaker 1 (45:15):
A new purchased another graham of heroin.

Speaker 2 (45:18):
Hang on, could we just go back to the I'll
drug him because they'll get too upset. So it would
be much better if he wakes up from a drugged
stupor not knowing why he passed out and found his
girlfriend dead. Yeah, that's maybe worse.

Speaker 1 (45:34):
It's a perfect plan. I don't I don't really, I
don't really understand. I think she was I don't think
she's thinking clearly of this, And I think that this
was part of her plan that she thought and Martivey
was going along.

Speaker 2 (45:46):
For the ride, like willingly sorry, not willingly knowingly or
was she just kind of thinking, my friend's just kind
of talk and smoke again.

Speaker 1 (45:54):
There's a bit of that. There's a bit of who knows,
there's a bit of who knows your honor, who her magistrate?
And magistrate? You can I can I raise this. I
don't know. I think in this it was she kind
of always thought that a New was talking smack. She

(46:14):
she said this several times before. However, she did continually
tell people throughout all of this that it.

Speaker 2 (46:20):
Told people that this is what I knew was saying,
that's what I was doing. Okay.

Speaker 1 (46:25):
A New purchased a graham of heroin. The dealer asked
why she needed so much, and she said, someone's coming
with me. The dealer asked if a New intended to
end her own life, and she said that she did,
but she would never reveal who the other person was.

Speaker 2 (46:42):
And the dealer still sold it to her.

Speaker 1 (46:44):
A dealer is or what's going to sell it?

Speaker 2 (46:45):
Okay, Yeah, that's a good point. There is.

Speaker 1 (46:49):
I don't think with a dealer there is anything.

Speaker 2 (46:51):
Deal was like, I just wanted to have a good
time and that's all I care about.

Speaker 1 (46:56):
House is for? Who's that for? Good point? Good point?
Good point? Good Now what we are going to go
is the first part of this horrible, horrible, horrible event
titled the First Dinner Party. Oh October Sunday, Okay, in
the weirdest way. October Sunday, nineteenth, Joe visited his parents.

Speaker 2 (47:19):
In Newcastle Sunday, October nineteen.

Speaker 1 (47:21):
Easier Sunday, October nineteen, beautiful Joe, I'll do it one
more time.

Speaker 2 (47:27):
No.

Speaker 1 (47:27):
Sunday, October nineteenth, Joe visited his parents in Newcastle. He
told his mum that he and anew were hosting a
dinner party the following evening back in Canberra. He wanted
to know if his mum had any meals prepared that
he could serve his guests. So what a young Isewan boy?

Speaker 2 (47:46):
If such? Did I tell you? Bo? I love that Mama.

Speaker 1 (47:48):
Please please to Newcastle, sorry not to Sydney, So.

Speaker 2 (47:54):
Take your home cooked meals four hundred and something.

Speaker 1 (47:57):
So he wanted to know if she had any pre
prepared meals so she could serve all of his guests
for a dinner party.

Speaker 2 (48:01):
Don't feel like she would have?

Speaker 1 (48:03):
Well, Maria offered to cook something. Yeahad he'd pick up
some fried chicken on the way home dinner party if
she was getting fried And.

Speaker 2 (48:11):
It's not comparable to Maria's beautiful Italian food. No beautiful food, Maria,
I'll have your Italian food plan. Well.

Speaker 1 (48:18):
The beautiful thing about this story, and there is only
kind of one, is that Helen Ghana got to spend
quite a lot of time with Maria and Maria would
always cook for her over Maria, Maria is Beautiful. October twentieth,
nineteen ninety seven. Dinner party Monday was set to be
held and everyone showed up fully aware of a new's

(48:40):
a new a news mental state. Martivi turned up with
one of her friends, Olivia, who had not met Joe
or anew before.

Speaker 2 (48:51):
Sorry when you're aware of her mental state, meaning that
she wasn't in a good place at your time, or
knowing what her plans were both What, No, I don't
believe that. I can't believe that. Yeah, so they've come
to a dinner party knowing.

Speaker 1 (49:06):
Martav has told everybody exactly why they're going along.

Speaker 2 (49:09):
We're going to this dinner party tonight, awards and a
Nu is going to drug her boyfriend with rehypnot.

Speaker 1 (49:15):
No, not that there's going to be suicide packed after.

Speaker 2 (49:17):
What the fuck? Why would you go to that dinner party?

Speaker 1 (49:20):
Well, this is the thing everyone went. It was a
more curiosity.

Speaker 2 (49:23):
No.

Speaker 1 (49:24):
Before the dinner, Martav showed her a needle mark in
her skin, explaining that Aniu had been practicing injecting on
her to practice for her suicide. She explained to Olivia
that the dinner was a final dinner before Aneu and
Joe's joined packed and.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
Olivia is a random friend who came with MARTIVI that
who didn't know the others.

Speaker 1 (49:45):
That's right, No, sorry, he was actually visiting from out
of town. I think it was that friend there, Sammy.

Speaker 2 (49:50):
If you invited me to a dinner party with a
friend and they're like on the way, you were like, oh,
by the way, the friends are going to kill themselves afterwards,
what would you say, I won't come, thank you very much?

Speaker 1 (50:03):
Will you jump out of the card? Stop dropping roll?

Speaker 2 (50:05):
I'd stopped up and roll, and then I would get
your mum to make me dinner, me and my whole family.

Speaker 1 (50:09):
You know what. Nothing against my mother, but I don't
think it'd be a beautiful meal, like Maria's cooking.

Speaker 2 (50:15):
Better than mine.

Speaker 1 (50:17):
Anu told Olivia and Martavi that she had prepared too
much food, and that they had that they should go
and knock on the doors of nearby people and get
them to come.

Speaker 2 (50:29):
It's going on. This is the weirdest store I've ever heard.

Speaker 1 (50:32):
Rumors had spread. By that point of the news, intentions
for that night, spurring other students, some of which were
total strangers, to attend in some kind of morbid curiosity.

Speaker 2 (50:43):
What are you talking about, Sammy?

Speaker 1 (50:46):
This is why this case is so bizarre. And through
Helen Ganna's book, she says, why did these people not
do more? Joe Chinque was dead. That's what she kind
of repeats throughout the book, and it's.

Speaker 2 (50:59):
Very powerful love the power of that. It's the effect
that I need the answer. I don't just want no question.

Speaker 1 (51:06):
Giving lawyers and a lot of them have since spoken
out about it. Some of them have not what what that.
They all wanted to go and see why the people
invited all new of a news plans to take her
and Joe's life. They all believed it was some kind

(51:26):
of fairwell party. Now the only person that didn't know
again was Joe chinquay yucky.

Speaker 2 (51:31):
I hate this, and.

Speaker 1 (51:33):
New made it clear to everyone invited that Joe was
in on the pact. They appeared really loving towards each
other all night, which made a lot of people who
intended to believe it was all now a harmless joke.
So they went along and then they went, oh, okay,
maybe it's a joke. All a lot.

Speaker 2 (51:49):
I feel like, I mean, as I've just very obviously said,
I wouldn't go anyway, but I feel like if they
were seeing me really lovey and nice, that would almost
make me believe it more, because you often hear the
people who have decided they're going to take their own
lives are quite happy and at peace and COMFORTA last

(52:11):
days well because.

Speaker 1 (52:12):
He didn't know what was going on, but you know,
but maybe they could eat both of them. They're both happy.

Speaker 2 (52:16):
But the guests thought he did know. Yeah, yeah, so yeah,
I don't know. I think I would go, oh, yeah,
they've decided to do this, and then oh god, yeah,
I wouldn't do that again. I wouldn't be there.

Speaker 1 (52:29):
Martave drove quite a few of the guests home, telling
them that the suicide was going ahead. Later that night,
a few of the people asked if they should seek
medical assistance, but Martive told them not to a few
of the people thought that it was a news choice
if she really wanted to do that, and it wasn't
their place to get involved or intervene. Ah, yes, it was,

(52:50):
it's well. That night, a new crushed sedatives into Joe's
drink so that he would drift off. She then fetched
a pre prepared ringe, but she struggled to find the
right vein. Joe got up in the morning and went
to work, seemingly unaware of what had happened.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
Oh by God.

Speaker 1 (53:11):
Akneu called MARTIVI and told her what happened. Martive was
doing work experience at the Community and Health Services Complaints Commission. Ironic,
she told two colleagues that something really serious had happened
the night before and was paranoid the police were going
to come after Tell the.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
Police, Tell the police. She told me to tell your colleagues,
tell the police.

Speaker 1 (53:35):
It was the major crime of the century. Ah and
it had to do with revenge. Ha ha and New
asked one of her heroin dealer friends to source her
some row hipnol. The friend had no problem getting it.
She got fifteen tablets. When paired with heroin, only one
tablet was necessary. Jesus so that the heroin had actually

(53:57):
congealed and she couldn't get it to work. It had
been too long in the syringe and she couldn't get
the heroin. She couldn't actually get it to inject. So
Joe was knocked out after having in his morning coffee,
woke up the next morning and went, oh, we probably
felt a bit groggy and as when he had no
idea that it happened. A few days later, the same
guests was surprised to receive another invitation, all of them

(54:20):
all the same guests yep, for I don't know if
it's all the same guests, but a lot of the
same people for Friday, October twenty.

Speaker 2 (54:27):
Fourth, Oh my god, same week the.

Speaker 1 (54:30):
Second dinner party. Yep, Monday was the first one.

Speaker 2 (54:32):
And then I hate this story.

Speaker 1 (54:35):
Despite the unsettling knowledge of their plans, they went along.
The guests were told again that she was planning to
take her and Joe's lives. Joe returned home to see
a full house of people. He was surprised. He didn't
know about the second dinner party, but went along with it.

(54:55):
He was gracious and a sociable host.

Speaker 2 (54:58):
Oh my god, if I came home and there was
a house full of people eating cracked and.

Speaker 1 (55:04):
That fried chicken again. He was talking excitedly about his
new car and his upcoming holiday to Queensland. Martivy told
her friend Olivia that the plan was going ahead for
real this time, but Olivia dismissed her, saying, people who
are going to do this sort of thing don't just
talk about it. They go ahead and do.

Speaker 2 (55:23):
It, or they're only talking about it. Yeah again, I
suppose that. I feel like that's what I.

Speaker 1 (55:29):
Would say happened once before the year. Oh okay, yeah, yeah.
I think it's lot of one.

Speaker 2 (55:33):
Of her things that she just talks about.

Speaker 1 (55:36):
And she did this, and she Martavey was certain that
there was nothing she could do to stop it. Another
guest thought it couldn't be true, and others thought it
was another one of a news tall tales. The couple
interacted exactly the same that night. They were both happy
and bubbly.

Speaker 2 (55:55):
Which is interesting when we've just said that Joe had
been planning to break up with her. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:02):
Yeah, maybe he was acting for his friends. I don't know. Maybe,
I don't know, who knows. The party continued into the
early hours without incident. After a while, people started heading home.
At six am the following morning, Martivi arrived home and
told one of her friends that anew had put ten
rote hypnal tablets into Joe's coffee and tried to inject

(56:25):
him with a lethal dose of heroin.

Speaker 2 (56:28):
Was Martaby saying this because she was there or because
that's what Anu said she was going to do.

Speaker 1 (56:34):
She was apparently there at the time because left after
she did that.

Speaker 2 (56:37):
Oh shit, yeah, that's accessory.

Speaker 1 (56:41):
Yes, it didn't work. It's amazing. It wasn't his time
to go.

Speaker 2 (56:47):
Marvy said that.

Speaker 1 (56:48):
Yeah. When the friend asked why Anu was trying to
hurt Joe, Martavi said, Joe's the problem. She wants to
take Joe with her. It's because she blames him for
her condition.

Speaker 2 (57:01):
Oh no.

Speaker 1 (57:02):
Martavy decided at that point that she wasn't going to
be involved in any further plan, so her friend kind
of talked her out of it and said, what are
you doing?

Speaker 2 (57:09):
Hang on? Sorry, after being there to witness someone give someone.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
Tenro hipnos, yeah, tenor hypnos and then heroins. Yeah, well
didn't see the heroin but.

Speaker 2 (57:21):
Okay, and said, you know what, I've let my friend
taught me out of doing that ever again.

Speaker 1 (57:26):
I'm not gonna do it anymore.

Speaker 2 (57:27):
I don't like Martiby.

Speaker 1 (57:28):
As the day continued, word of a news plan spread.
One friend threatened to contact the police, but a new
found out about this and talk to the friend out
of it.

Speaker 2 (57:38):
Hang on sirs, Joe, do we know what Joe's condition
is at this point? Okay?

Speaker 1 (57:44):
And New told the friend that she would do nothing
to hurt Joe. And who told this person that they
were going to be engaged? Why would she hurt him?

Speaker 3 (57:51):
What?

Speaker 1 (57:52):
A New admitted to these concerned people that she had
given Joe the sedatives, but she had only done it
so that he would be a s when she tried
to end her own life. She convinced them that Joe
was not in any danger and she would confess to
him about spiking his drink. Everyone decided to let this go.
Oh wow, so the news at that point had only

(58:14):
spread of the temper hypnoal tablets. But I'm sure at
that point it was I'm sure at that point though
it wasn't ten like I'm sure.

Speaker 2 (58:20):
People, Oh she drugged him to put him say exactly.

Speaker 1 (58:24):
At ten nineteen that evening, Anu called her friend Len,
who was fully aware of the sinister plans, but expressed
his opinion to others that it was just a New
being dramatic and a desperate cry for attention.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
Ten pm the following night, Saturday night.

Speaker 1 (58:40):
Neil asked how strong ra hypnol was. She said, that
Joe had been asleep for a really long time, about
fifteen hours, and was now groggy and couldn't keep his
eyes open. She was worried about what she had done,
but Len told her that she wouldn't have caused any
long term damage. Joe took the phone and said, hey, mate,

(59:02):
my mind is one hundred percent functional. Joe said that apparently,
yet my body just wants to sleep like crazy. That's all.
She's worried for nothing. Now. I'm very confused about that, apparently,
he I don't know if she ever told him that
she had given him that much for hypnol, but it
seems like she did confess that to him, told him

(59:24):
that on the phone, I gave you a hypnole. Blah
blah blah blah.

Speaker 2 (59:27):
That's why you can't stay awake.

Speaker 1 (59:30):
That's right, I think she had told him at that point.
After midnight, Anew called another friend, asking if it was impossible,
if it was possible to inject heroin into your legs
or the backs of your arm. The next morning, Sunday,
October twenty sixth, nineteen ninety seven, a new visited Martavi

(59:51):
and told her that Joe wasn't breathing and she needed
money to get some heroin to take her own life.
Martave drove her to an EIGHTE and withdrew two hundred
and fifty dollars cash.

Speaker 2 (01:00:03):
Sorry, get alone, I'm so sorry, Marty By Martive can get.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
Fucked, yeash and get fucked. At nine am, a new
purchased half a gram of heroin. She was anxious and
kept saying today's the day. Anu continually called Martive that day.
Martyve told Anu to leave her alone, but eventually caved
after Anu was extremely persistent. Martive went to pick her up.

Speaker 2 (01:00:30):
So she was like, leave me alone, Go kill yourself
in peace. Yeah, fuck this girl.

Speaker 1 (01:00:35):
They both had a heated argument. While Anu appeared to
be very distressed. Martivi went to speak to Len and
told him that after Joe awoke the night before, he
told Anew that he was going to leave her. Martivi
then explained that a new tried to kill Joe with heroin.
Len had been convinced it was all a tall tale
up until this point. He suggested calling a news parents

(01:00:57):
to tell them in case. Anew later claimed that Joe
had injected himself. Lenn and Martivey went for a drive
just in case anew tried to involve them further. During
that drive, Martivi told Lenn that she had actually been
to their house earlier that day and had witnessed Joe
unconscious on their bed.

Speaker 2 (01:01:20):
She'd seen that, She's seen.

Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
That, and she went to the house, saw him unconscious,
not moving, and left.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
And then was like, I don't want to help anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
I don't know anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:01:29):
Took her to get cash now to him and all that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:33):
Car to keep the car. His skin was pale, his
lips were blue, but he was still breathing, and decided
to leave anywhere.

Speaker 2 (01:01:41):
This is the person who wanted to study medicine.

Speaker 1 (01:01:43):
That's right, right, a new phone, the friend who had
supplied the Rowe hypnole. She was advised to call an ambulance,
but I knew, said that she couldn't because Joe didn't
know and he would be furious. She said that Joe
didn't know what didn't know, that that she had given

(01:02:04):
him the hypno.

Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
That if don't call the ambulance for Joe, because he'll
be mad at me for giving him a hypno.

Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
That's right?

Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
Is this story?

Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
She said that Joe was taking one breath every ten seconds.
The friend said that she needed to do mouth to
mouth resuscitation. Joe began vomiting black liquid. The friend told
her time and time again to hang up and call
an ambulance, but a news said it was all too late.
The friend then told a new that if she didn't
call the ambulance then she might have a murder change

(01:02:36):
to deal with. At this point, a new disconnected the call.
At twelve ten PMS. Is on the Sunday, a new
called emergency services.

Speaker 2 (01:02:47):
So we're bordering on twenty four hours from when she
first gave him a hypno.

Speaker 1 (01:02:51):
Hypno, not the heroine, but yeah, the rapnoeah louck it
hell and just watched him. Was absolutely hysterical on the phone,
which we spoke about at the start. She continually changed
the address or kind of justs gave a fake address.
When asked for her name, she said her name was Olivia.

(01:03:11):
The dispatcher told her to provide mouth to mouth resuscitation,
but she couldn't because he was coughing up so much
blood and his teeth were cleanched shut. When paramedics are
coughing up blood, I don't know, I don't know. This
is this is what's bullshit from I know. When paramedics arrived,
a new waved them down. Joe was lying diagonally across

(01:03:32):
the bed, naked from the waist down. He could not
be resuscitated, and knew begged them to keep trying, throwing
herself onto his body. It wasn't supposed to happen this way,
she said. We were supposed to go together. Oh God.
When police arrived, they had to physically remove anew from

(01:03:52):
the bedroom. She explained that she had given Joe four
or hypnoal tablets and then injected him. She was taken
into custody.

Speaker 2 (01:04:01):
She said that to police straight away, straight away, that's interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:04:05):
On the twenty sixth of October, Joe's mother, Maria was
on the edge. Joe called her always to check in
every Sunday, but this time he hadn't. When Joe still
hadn't called, Maria called Joe, but was met with the
police officers. Oh god, God, blood ran cold. At the
same time, there was an officer knocking on her door.

(01:04:27):
The police told Maria and Nino that they were there
about Joe. Maria begged them not to tell her anything more.
She knew that Joe was gone, but she did not
want to hear it. Family and friends traveled to the
margue to identify Joe. Robert, the Chinkway's godson, could hardly
believe it. He had seen Joe smiling like he used

(01:04:50):
to when he spoke about his car. Police explained that
foul play was suspected and anew had been taken into custody.
Toxicology are showed high levels of heroin and roe hypnol.
It was so ro hypnol itself is ten times stronger
than vallium.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
Oh wow. So yeah, it's probably a stupid question. I'm
sure the answer is for sedation. But what is very
hypno used for except drugging someone unwittingly? I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:05:22):
It is a very strong sedative, I don't. I don't
think we have it here.

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
Yeah, anymore if you only hear about it used as
it like for exactly so strong drugging people in nightclubs
and exactly and it's you know, ten times stronger than
valium just one. So yeah, that's what I mean. I
almost feel like I don't know why it exists, which
is I understand it's an ignorant comment, but it just
feels like, why can people get it?

Speaker 1 (01:05:46):
At all. Yeah, it must be used if you have
a prescription for it must be used for something. But
I don't really know, Like there.

Speaker 2 (01:05:53):
Was it fentanyl that Michael Jackson, Yeah, yeah, maybe that
kind of thing.

Speaker 1 (01:05:57):
Maybe that. Yeah, So it didn't take too long for
Martiv row, a New's best friend to be brought in
for questioning. Detectives soon learned that Joe's murder had been
planned for months. Detectives soon learned that Joe's murder had

(01:06:26):
been planned for months and Knew had studied suicide methods
extensively and how to inject someone with heroin.

Speaker 2 (01:06:32):
Then it's not suicide if it's injecting someone else.

Speaker 1 (01:06:35):
Yeah, Anew needed to rely on her friend, Martivi, who
had rehypnol, who had connections on how to obtain it.
So yeah, Martiv's friend who actually had the hypnoal and
how to obtain it. At both dinner parties, a New
laced Joe's coffee with a sedative. So first it was
it was another sedative, and then the second time it

(01:06:55):
was hypnoal. The first attempt to inject him with the
heroin didn't work, it had congealed inside of the syringe.
On the second evening, a new managed to inject a
fatal amount of heroin in his bloodstream while he lay
paralyzed and unable to save himself. Martive was taken to
the station and was also charged for the murder of

(01:07:18):
Joe Chinque. Martavi said, I tried at every stage to intercede.
Three days later, her parents secured her one hundred thousand
dollars bail, which she had to remain under supervision. Most
disturbing of all, ANWSE sat and watched as Joe suffered
in pain for a very very long time. It was

(01:07:42):
only when his lips started turning blue and started coughing blood,
and people repeatedly taught her to call paramedics that a
new called an acquaintance and told her that there had
been an overdose.

Speaker 2 (01:07:54):
Called an acquaintance, well called her.

Speaker 1 (01:07:55):
I remember she called the friend and said, oh what
I do? Pressure second was eaten up with the wild
goose chase. She put the paramedics through, giving incorrect information
and even referring to herself as Olivia on the phone.

Speaker 2 (01:08:09):
Yeah, I want to know more about that.

Speaker 1 (01:08:11):
Meanwhile, Joe died of a cardiac arrest.

Speaker 2 (01:08:15):
Police is that the most is that commonly what an
overdose would cause.

Speaker 1 (01:08:20):
I think I think it's pretty common. Yeah, I think
it is pretty common. Yeah, yeah, especially when you can't
you can't really breathe properly. And there's yeah, I don't know,
like with Yeah. Police searched Joe's diary and found an
appointment scheduled get ready to move move urgent today. Joe
was obviously trying to leave a new he wanted out.

Speaker 2 (01:08:41):
I mean that's interesting in itself. One, why do you
put that in your diary when you live with someone?
Two he was happy at the dinner party. By all
accounts from other people. I don't know. Maybe they've said
that because they feel like they realize they might be
access to.

Speaker 1 (01:08:57):
Yeah, well you know people, do you know, playne in
front of other people if there's other people around. I
think sure, true. True. One year later, Anew and MARTIVI
were scheduled to be tried together.

Speaker 2 (01:09:08):
Oh wow, both charged with murder.

Speaker 1 (01:09:10):
Yeah, this is what was going to happen. Yeah. Anew
was held in custody a new phone of friend asking
them to bring her all the high court cases where
somebody had pled not guilty due to reasons of insanity.

Speaker 2 (01:09:22):
I decided that's what she's going to thought, you're going.

Speaker 1 (01:09:24):
To go with. The joint trial began on October sixth,
nineteen ninety eight. At the Supreme Court, anw pled not
guilty for reasons of diminished responsibility. This meant that she
admitted to what she had done, but she could not
be held liable for murder because of her mental state
at the time. She claimed that she was suffering from

(01:09:46):
untreated borderline personality disorder, a major depressive disorder, which include
explosive anger, unstable relationships, chronic fears of abandonment, and a
false sense of reality.

Speaker 2 (01:09:59):
I don't really know if any of them would.

Speaker 1 (01:10:01):
Justify murder killing someone, No, exactly. Borderline personal disorder is
an interesting one, Like I don't really know heaps about that.
I certainly know people who have had borderline personal disorder,
and it is it is a very heartbreaking thing to see.

Speaker 2 (01:10:16):
Yes, I can't think of a case I've heard of
where that's been successfully as a defense for killing somebody.
But I could be very wrong. I just can't think
of the time I've heard that far. It may have.

Speaker 1 (01:10:33):
The dealer who supplied the heroine was granted immunity for
providing evidence against the pair. Many people came forward saying
that they knew of the plans and that Martavi assisted
in carrying out the plan. When pressed, when no one
came forward at the time, no one could provide a
sufficient explanation. That's why you got swangry before. We can't

(01:10:54):
provide one. I'm so sorry.

Speaker 2 (01:10:55):
I'm still waiting for you too. You haven't finished this
story yet, and if you don't provide me what, I'm
going to be really mad.

Speaker 1 (01:11:00):
During the fourth week of the trial, the judge realized
that that mounting evidence against the pair would likely cause
unfair prejudice against MARTIVI. He terminated the proceedings, deciding that
Martive and Anu should be tried separately at a later date.

Speaker 2 (01:11:17):
Wait, what so I understand.

Speaker 1 (01:11:19):
That realized that Martive should not be tried with a new.

Speaker 2 (01:11:24):
You can't do that four weeks into her trial.

Speaker 1 (01:11:26):
Surely, well apparently they did.

Speaker 2 (01:11:29):
What This whole thing is so confusing, Like none of
the things you're saying sound like they're real.

Speaker 1 (01:11:37):
I know, they're just words, I say the prosecution.

Speaker 2 (01:11:40):
Oh, not long enough now. I just listened to the
words you say, and then after a while I go, wait.

Speaker 1 (01:11:45):
Wait, what the prosecution offered Anew the opportunity to plead
to manslaughter for a reduced sentence, but she refused, maintaining
her innocence. While awaiting her second trial, Anew had a
letter seized from her locker. It read, I've decided to
write down how this happened to get it clear in

(01:12:05):
my mind. Also, she went on to describe all of
the events that led to Joe's death, starting with her
and Martave going to the library to find the book
on a Sister Dying. She said that she had initially
intended to end her own life, but then after reading
about partners were married who had married a couple of
years after their loved ones had died of suicide, she

(01:12:28):
decided it was only fair that Joe would die with her.

Speaker 2 (01:12:31):
So that's not your choice to be heartbroken.

Speaker 1 (01:12:33):
Blah blah blah.

Speaker 2 (01:12:34):
No, that is not your choice.

Speaker 1 (01:12:36):
From then, all she thought about was death. She wrote,
Didn't I think at the time that these friends of
mine were helping me to die? Didn't I stop and
think that Joe was helping me to live?

Speaker 3 (01:12:49):
No?

Speaker 1 (01:12:50):
I felt compelled to do it because I thought everyone
was against me and only cared if Joe died or not.

Speaker 2 (01:12:56):
No, sorry, I'm aware, and at the start you said
you know compassion or understanding for her, and maybe we're
getting there, but right now, quit with your poetic bullshit
and now and just admit guilt.

Speaker 1 (01:13:13):
She goes on, Then, I wasn't sure whether to call
the ambulance because Martavy said that if you call the ambulance,
he will leave you and put you.

Speaker 2 (01:13:24):
Oh my God.

Speaker 1 (01:13:26):
In a letter addressed to her mother, a new wrote,
the most wonderful man in the world loved me so much,
would have made a perfect husband and father ruined, perfect
life ruined. Now everyone is better off than me when
I had it all. I bet everyone is laughing at
me now because of my own artist stupidity and selfishness.

(01:13:48):
You must start preparing for my death. Now my life
is over. I made the wrong choice when so many
others were available at the time, worked with Druggies rather
than Joe. Should have protected him and worked with him.
Now so many lives are ruined.

Speaker 2 (01:14:04):
She's written this letter to her mother mother more than
a year after Yeah, Oh God.

Speaker 1 (01:14:10):
A new solo trial began in March nineteen ninety nine.
It was a judge only trial.

Speaker 2 (01:14:17):
Her plays and.

Speaker 1 (01:14:20):
There's also no way, yeah, that you could have any
kind of person in the camera that wouldn't have known
about you exactly. Her plea was not guilty. The defense
stated that she suffered from borderline personal disorder and severe
oppression since her teens. She was in a delusional world
where she truly believed that she was going to die
from a disease. She was suffering from a depressive illness

(01:14:44):
that culminated in Joe's death. Oh my God. Psychiatrist spoke
of a personal disorder as exacerbated by her substance abuse
and bolimia. If she had sought how help, it would
have changed everything. The psychiatrist stated that Anew should be

(01:15:05):
put into a facility, not to prison. The prosecution argued
that a News actions were not impacted by her mental
state and she was perfectly capable of making rational decisions.
This was proven by her waiting to call an ambulance
and by the time she did it it seemed as
though she was hindering efforts to saves to save Joe's

(01:15:27):
life by giving false information. They argued that she was
depressed she would have actually killed herself after Joe not
made not made her up, sorry, not made a decision
for herself after that fact not to go. Her diara
was also displayed, which was destroyed and pieced back together,
which showed a vengeance against Joe. She also watched him die,

(01:15:52):
which was an act of extraordinary cruelty. Various witnesses described
Anew as psycho dramatic and appeared healthy, which is why
no one questioned whether she was serious in killing herself, which.

Speaker 2 (01:16:06):
That's not fairver.

Speaker 1 (01:16:07):
A psychiatrist for the prosecution concluded that Anew was of
sound mind when she killed Joe. Her problem was a
lack of maturity, which impaired her from being able to
control her moods or temper. She had actually called a
friend to ask for help, which showed that she was
trying to remove any guilt away from her and worried

(01:16:30):
about the consequences. Justice Crispin acknowledged the profound challenges of
the case. He was satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that she
intended to murder Joe, but he also accepted that she
was suffering from an abnormality of mind. It was impossible

(01:16:51):
to determine what she was thinking at the time or
what led her to take such actions. The case was
absolutely massive camera crews and journalists were everywhere ready for
the verdicts. The Chinque sat at the front of the
courtroom awaiting the verdict. They did not miss a day

(01:17:12):
of court. Maria was sobbing into a handkerchief. The family
could not accept that so many people knew of a
news claims and that no one, particularly at both dinner parties,
did anything about it. Just as Crispin addressed anew directly,

(01:17:33):
in the next few years, you will have to come
to terms with the fact that you killed the man
you love. You have caused immense pain. If you find
the moral courage, you may be able to rebuild from
this wreckage, to repay the trust people have put in you.
He then declared her not guilty of Joe's murder, but

(01:17:57):
guilty of manslaughter on grounds of diminished responsibility. Wow Aneur
was sentenced to only ten years in prison, with a
non parole period of four years backdated to the time
of Joe's death. She would be eligible in two years.

(01:18:18):
When Justice Crispin left the courtroom, Maria turned to Anneu
and said, this is where you belong. You stay forever.
Rod In how you bitch devil. She's a demon? My
son that's all four years? How can you sleep at night?

(01:18:41):
Four years? Is that all my son is worth? So sad,
so sad. Maria told the journalists outside that Aneu should
have been sentenced to death. It was widely believed that
Anu had fooled the court into believing that she wasn't
of sound mind. Joe Chinque was twenty six years old.

(01:19:05):
He was looking forward to sharing his life with his girlfriend,
a new singer. He had supported her and he stayed
with her with all her ailments, real or not real.
She herself called him the most wonderful man in the world.
She was premeditated, she planned to kill him, and she
was acquitted of murder for diminished responsibility. Six months later,

(01:19:34):
Martivi Rau pled not guilty for Fuck's sake. The prosecution
stated that she was criminally responsible for aiding Anew. She
was fully aware of the plot to kill Joe and
failed her duty of care. The prosecution believed that she
was present when Anu put the sedatives in Joe's coffee

(01:19:55):
or a hypnoal that morning at six am, but it
could not be proven what time this all happened and
when Joe was injected. When she saw Joe ill in
his bedroom. She did not have a duty of care
and she was a friend, what not a spouse?

Speaker 2 (01:20:13):
No no, no, no, no, no, no no no.

Speaker 1 (01:20:17):
The defense maintained that she had no more legal responsibility
than a complete stranger.

Speaker 2 (01:20:23):
Yeah. Sorry, surely there's still a duty of care for
a stranger. If you see someone with blue lips past out,
do something about it.

Speaker 1 (01:20:29):
She was alarmingly passive in her friendship with Anew and
went to unhealthy lengths to put her friend's needs ahead
of her own. She had difficulty standing up for herself.
She taught a classmate, I've got a friend who's suicidal.
She smothers me. A prison welfare officer overheard Anew putting

(01:20:50):
the pressure on Martivi about getting their stories straight. Martive
was declared not guilty, fuck off of all charges.

Speaker 2 (01:20:59):
Fuck off.

Speaker 1 (01:21:00):
Although her story was suspicious, they could not prove that
she shared a news criminal intent. Maria and Nino had
to be escorted out of the court for their protesting
about what had happened. Nino collapsed and was rushed to
hospital with heart problems. Martivi was let off. She was
now for just.

Speaker 2 (01:21:21):
Not guilty, completely just acquitted.

Speaker 1 (01:21:23):
Yeah, I was allowed to leave for sake. A new
later said, it's my fault entirely. I was hysterical and
she just loved me and wanted to help me. What
would sending her to jail have really done? Would it
have eased Maria and Nino's pain anymore?

Speaker 2 (01:21:40):
That's not the only point of a guilty verdict, That's
not the only point of punishment and rehabilitation, of retribution.

Speaker 1 (01:21:48):
Having some sort of justice. It seemed this perpetuating sorrow
on so many people. Her family would have suffered as
my family suffered. I don't put any blame on martyv
I Knew served her sentence in a maximum security prison,
where she worked in a prison library and shoot at
other inmates. She underwent psychotherapy and was prescribed for medication

(01:22:14):
to treat depression, anxiety, and obsessed with combalsive disorder. She
was later transferred and granted day release to the University
of Sydney. In October two thousand and one, she was
released on parole at the age of just twenty nine,
two years old. Two years yeah, only a few years
older than Joe was when his life was taken away

(01:22:35):
from him. In two thousand and four, she breached her
parole conditions for smoking cannabis and went back to prison
for three months. In two thousand and nine, she was
awarded a doctorate from the University of Sydney for a
thesis offending Women toward a greater understanding of women's pathways

(01:22:56):
into and out of crime in Australia. She has since
admitted that she lied in nineteen ninety seven when she
told a counselor that Joe had been abusive to her.
Joe had expressed frustration with her, but he never indicated
that he wanted to leave her. She had told him
various times of her intention to take her own life,

(01:23:17):
but he encouraged her to keep living. Then asked why
she did it, she said, there's absolutely no legitimate or
rational motivation at all. Martyve changed her name and moved
to the United States with her husband and kids. She
got to have a life.

Speaker 2 (01:23:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:23:37):
A lot of the people who went to the party
on those nights went on to finish their law degrees.
The townhouse has since been demolished to make way for
a new government housing project. Joe's childhood room remains untouched.
The Chinquays are, of course still The Chinquas are of course,
still perplexed as to why no one came to Joe's aid.

(01:24:00):
If you see a dog on the street from a
car accident, you call somebody to help the bloody dog.
Her father, Nino said so his father, Nino said. Joe
Chinkway's death has often been cited as a tragic example
of the bystander effect, a social psychological claim where people
are less likely to help someone if others are present,

(01:24:21):
believing someone else will act. A new made a public
apology to the Chinquei family on television a Current Affair
in two thousand and seven scene, saying, there are many
things people don't understand. There's a lot of things that
have been overlooked. I was suffering from a very very
severe mental illness of the time. If I could have

(01:24:44):
listened to people and sought the right sort of mental help,
this wouldn't have happened. I would like to say to
Maria and Nino that I'm deeply, deeply sorry for what happened,
and to that if I could, if there was any
way I could turn back the clock, I would do
so in a heartbeat. In the same episode, Maria rejected

(01:25:05):
the apology, calling anew the devil and responding, don't tell
me this bullshit. You have killed the most precious thing
I had in my life. My first son, my firstborn,
the one who was going to carry his grandfather's name,
is not here anymore. Maria Chinque believes that Joe wasn't
just betrayed by anew but also the entire justice system.

(01:25:29):
In the book Joe's Hinque's Consolation, Helen Ghana goes to
visit Justice Crispin, who presided over the case. Maria had
called him all kinds of names and said that she
hoped a child of his was murdered so he would understand.
Justice Crispin understood her hurt and frustration. In fact, he
had lost a child too, Oh God. Helen asked him

(01:25:52):
about his lenient ruling in the case of Sing. He
said both her parents were doctors. They were terrified about
the way she was behaving. They lugged her to doctors
and psychiatrists, and then twice tried to have her locked
up as an involuntary patient. Imagine how frightened you'd have

(01:26:13):
to be about your own child to want to do that.
Justice Crispin also goes on to say about Martavi, I
think Rau was very coerced as to what to do.
She was paralyzed with indecision. I think Rau was very

(01:26:34):
concerned as to what to do. I think it means
she was paralyzed with indecision. Her friend was saying these
things that were off the planet. Nobody else was taking
it seriously. Should she take it seriously? What if she
blew the whistle and rang the police and then it
all turned out to be a hoax.

Speaker 2 (01:26:52):
That that doesn't matter.

Speaker 1 (01:26:54):
By the time of her release, Arne already had a
boyfriend who she met during her trial. Back in nine
ninety nine. She spent eighteen months at the remand Center,
where male and female inmates were able to make contact.
She had three romantic attachments in that time, but only
one serious, who later went on to become her partner.

(01:27:16):
After being released, they moved to Sydney together. I Knew
managed to finish her PhD in prison and actually wanted
to become a criminologist. I Knew attempted to make a
documentary about prison and approach the founder of a victim
support group called Enough Is Enough. The founder's response was
that if she wanted to genuinely help people, yes, but

(01:27:37):
if she wanted to make a film, then forget about it.
If she just wanted to make a film and just
forget about it, they never heard back from a new
A few months later, a new spoker out about how
annoyed she had been about the public mistreatment and how
difficult she felt it was to get a job in
a chosen field. Her boyfriend was quoted as saying she

(01:27:58):
wasn't an angel, but has served her two years. In
the book Joe Chinquay's Consolation by Helen Ghana, she starts
out wanting to talk to to Martvi to get their
sides of the story, but what she realizes is that
she needed to get to dojo. She visited with his

(01:28:20):
family so many times and learned not to sit in
Joe's chair every time she visited that was his as
if they were waiting for him to return home. They
also had a photo of him in the kitchen, and
when Halen would bring something along like a bottle of wine,
it was placed next to Joe as if he was
waiting for his house guest. I'd like to end today

(01:28:42):
with Helen talking about sitting with Marie Chinkuey on the
couch of their family home they're watching Joe at a
wedding that he was seeing. He looks somehow different from
his companions at the wedding, with his rather harsh haircut
that swept any kind of mullet, bared his long, slender neck,

(01:29:05):
and stripped his cheeks of side burns. How much of
this was projecting with the knowledge I had of horrible fate.
It was magic, thinking, sentimental. I tried to pull myself
into line, but I wasn't the only person to be
struck by Joe An a casual moment of proceedings with

(01:29:26):
the guests were attacking the dessert and nothing for more
was in progress, where children were tearing about the dance
floor among the drifting balloons, and Joe was just standing
there alone behind the long bridle table, smiling benignly and
looking around him with a calm, bright curiosity. The camera

(01:29:46):
zoomed in discreetly and framed him front m head and
shoulders against the dark curtain. It had no reason to
single him out in that moment, let alone focus on
his agreeable face, but it found it, and it dwelt
on him. It lingered intimately and without He's ever realizing

(01:30:06):
for a good seven or eight seconds. His face was
fine and sensitive, still faintly blurred look, with youth not
yet said in the hard lines of manhood. He looked
like a man who was lightly poised on the very
rim of the world he came from. I sat on
his parents couch and watched him with my heart in

(01:30:29):
my mouth. Maria too, ceased her murmured commentary. We gazed
in silence on our undefended son. That g is a
devastating case of jo chinqua.

Speaker 2 (01:30:46):
Thanks, I hate it. Oh my god, We've never cried
this much. Do you think we should take a break
and come back and Sammy, thank you so much for
telling that story. Jesus Christ, what a roller coaster the motion.

Speaker 1 (01:31:08):
We just take kind of a big break just then.

Speaker 2 (01:31:10):
Yea, we just sat and cried a lot and hugged
and then discussed it a bit.

Speaker 1 (01:31:14):
And you sent me a photo that you took of
digs during during that which actually bright my day. It is.
It is such a I highly recommend the book.

Speaker 2 (01:31:24):
I just asked you literally as you were pressing record,
did you cry while you were reading that or was
it just because you were kind of like saying it
all together as one story? And please repeat your I did.

Speaker 1 (01:31:34):
I absolutely cried during it.

Speaker 2 (01:31:36):
It is the words were I cried a lot, cried
a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:31:39):
It's also I was crying on the train when they read,
which isn't a good look. But it is so beautiful.
I think my connection to it, other than it is
just a it is just a horrible story. Is my brother.
So he had drug psychosis from a young young age
and he would do things like he became a very
violent person. We had all the restrained orders on him.

(01:32:01):
He became someone that I didn't know any more, didn't recognize,
and I grew up with that from the age of
about fifteen. That was my life, and I had all
these reading orders with my brother. I kind of understood
how someone can fall through the cracks quite easily. And
I don't think there's a lot of support for mental
health in Australia. I also find it so disappointing that
you cannot get someone there are so many you have

(01:32:23):
to be assessed by a cat team, and my brother
was quite charming when it came to it, And I
think there are just there's so much wrong with the
legal system, There is so much wrong with the mental
health system, and you know, throughout this book, the line
is repeated over and over again, no matter what, Joe

(01:32:46):
Chinkway is dead. And that line is repeated fifty times
throughout the book, and she talks to every single person.
Then she goes, Joe Chinkway is dead, and that is
what the book should be called, because it is just yeah,
but a young man who everyone loved, who.

Speaker 2 (01:33:07):
Didn't do anything, to do.

Speaker 1 (01:33:09):
Anything, and his mum was you know, called him JOSEPPI
to follow on you know, his grandfather's footsteps. It is.
It's so heartbreaking a case and our tickes come on.

Speaker 2 (01:33:21):
Dis just come to.

Speaker 1 (01:33:23):
Kisses. But dear, well, yeah, but it is so yeah,
he's very shy, digs never that in his love. But
it is it is so sad because you you look
at these people and you go even the people that
went to the dinners even like I just don't understand.

(01:33:45):
I can't understand, like you said during it, like if
you were invited to a dinner like that, you would
if you don't know someone, of course you would say
what is going on and understand what's happening.

Speaker 2 (01:33:58):
I'd tell people I wouldn't go to the dinner, but
I would also then tell people what was said and
report that, like, I'm quite common, quite confident. It's very
easy to say I would have should have cut her.
I really feel quite confident I would yeah, no, I'm
not coming to that dinner, and I would call authorities
like I would feel quite confident. Yeah, yeah, like I'm
a big dipper dubba though parently from way back.

Speaker 1 (01:34:22):
Yeah, do you ever hear that what you used to say?
Dip dubbers with chocolate nappies.

Speaker 2 (01:34:26):
That's disgusting.

Speaker 1 (01:34:27):
Yeah, chocolate chocolate nappy What.

Speaker 2 (01:34:32):
Does that mean?

Speaker 1 (01:34:33):
I think they put themselves and then everyone else will go,
oh what, I don't want to be one of them.
Then I'll keep this secret with myself.

Speaker 2 (01:34:40):
No no secret secrets. And if one secret secrets hurt.

Speaker 1 (01:34:44):
Someone, that's actually true. And also dubbers chocolate no no, no,
take that, but it is. I don't know. I found
the whole book so interesting. So Helen Ghana wrote a
Monkey Grip and this it was her first as I know,
her first true crime, and it really made her a

(01:35:06):
national bestseller because it was like, how do you write
about this in a way? You know, she talks about
her own divorce during this she wow, you know, having
an abortion. She talks there is so much in here
that you go, oh wow, So she can at the time,
you know, when if that story about And I kind
of canvas this by saying, if all of this is true,

(01:35:28):
when when a new terminated her pregnancy, then Helen talks
about that, and she has a way of connecting with people.
Then obviously she wrote this House of Grief, which catapulted her,
catapulted her into the worldwide stage like as a as
this this incredible, incredible writer. But I went in to
get the Mushroom cook Book and I came out with this,

(01:35:51):
and I mean I bought both, but it was just
like so interested in going and yeah, and I just
looked at it and when you know, it's got a
green apple on the front cover like you said at
the start, and I just went, what is this and
what is this story? And it wasn't you know, I'm
not a big I mean I really I am a
big true crime fanatic, but I don't source it out

(01:36:13):
and sit and devoured and this was just fascinating and
like people looking at this book, we'll just go what
is that? Oh? Do you ever hear about the story.
Some people had heard of the story, but a lot
of people didn't know that Martave left and.

Speaker 2 (01:36:29):
Oh my god, I've got so many things on the.

Speaker 1 (01:36:30):
Country, and also that a new only got you know,
in the end two years.

Speaker 2 (01:36:34):
Okay, I want to get to that. First of all,
I want to talk about the book. Why do you
think it's titled Joe Chinkwa's Consolation? And why has got
the green apple on the front?

Speaker 1 (01:36:44):
I kind of feel that that was the poison apple, aha,
that was given to him a consolation. I don't really know.
Why do you think it's called I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:36:53):
I don't like the title. No, I don't like it.

Speaker 1 (01:36:56):
What does the world? What's the definition of consolation?

Speaker 2 (01:36:59):
Look it up?

Speaker 1 (01:37:00):
It up right, because, yeah, I find the title. I
think it should have been called in Sorry, Helen's is
just one note, Hell's health belt. I think Joe Joe
Chinkway's Dead would have been. It would have been a
great title. But I wonder why she chose.

Speaker 2 (01:37:15):
I don't don't I'll look up the actual definition.

Speaker 1 (01:37:19):
I don't like.

Speaker 2 (01:37:23):
Great chick, good right, good right, great chick? Okay, So
the comfort received by a person after a loss or disappointment.
The example sentence is there was a consolation in knowing
that others were worse off. Wow. Yeah, yeah, I just
it's like, you know, a consolation prize where you go, oh, sorry,

(01:37:46):
you didn't get this, but here's a consolation prize. To me,
That's why I don't like that title. It makes it
feel like there's something that's okay about it.

Speaker 1 (01:37:55):
Yeah. Yeah, maybe in a way that would sounds bizarre.

Speaker 4 (01:38:00):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:38:00):
I think maybe the consolation is that she received the help.
I don't know. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:38:08):
Well, the tag is a true story of death, grief,
and the law.

Speaker 2 (01:38:15):
Yeah, I'm really fascinated about that title. I'm a real nerd.
I think I've said this on him before. Whenever I
read or watch something that I really like or really hate,
I go into a deep dive of reviews and interviews
with the authors or the writers. And I know that
I'm going to do that as soon as I leave here.

Speaker 1 (01:38:33):
What I love the most about this is that it
ends with a photo of Joe, which is lovely, so
you can kind of see the person that he was,
and I, you know, I just go oh wow, Like
he was so young, he was such a beautiful looking person.
He had just a face that you can imagine Maria like,
you know, like just loving and being obsessed with and
grabbing his face. That's what I felt. And you can

(01:38:57):
kind of understand how, you know, a family that came
to us Aralia for a better life would look at
this and go this is criminal and they and also
I think the big thing that really struck me was
in grief. These this family are going through this unspeakable grief.
They ran out of money because because they were going

(01:39:20):
to Canberra, and they went to every single day of
the trial and would take their own lunch and they
would sit in the park and Alen Ghan would walk
by and sit with him in the park. And there
was a police officer that was lovely to them that
would just chat with them every day and would drive
up to Newcastle to talk to them and they would
I don't know that. I think a lot of the time,
when people get really sick or people you know, go

(01:39:42):
through something like this, you don't think about that. They
can't work, they can't do anything there. They just got
this huge cost of living and they're having to do
all this stuff. I don't know, it just it just
seems wild to me that this you don't think about
these poor people went along to everything, and then they.

Speaker 2 (01:39:58):
Didn't do anything. Joe didn't do anything to deserve it.
They didn't do anything to deserve it either, and they've
got this life sentence that she doesn't have and who
doesn't have, Okay, which brings me to talk about that.
What do you think about first of all, put aside
the sentence, what do you think about the guilty of
manslaughter but not of murder verdict? I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:40:23):
I feel like there was a lot of intent. I
feel like it was premeditated. I feel like it because
of the first party Monday. You have a week to
think about it. Like, I feel like it was murder
and I but I also know that she didn't have
I know, the mental stability.

Speaker 2 (01:40:41):
And that's something that yeah, I you know, I'm touching
what as I say this, don't have lived experience with
someone with reduced mental capacity like that, or you know,
I don't know that. I don't know what that's like

(01:41:03):
to be in or to be around, which I'm very
grateful for. But it's very hard from my privileged perspective
to understand or to agree that there's no criminal capacity.
Well sorry, not no criminal capacity. She was still found
guilty of manslaughter, But the criminal diminishment of that I

(01:41:28):
find really hard to understand.

Speaker 1 (01:41:32):
Isn't there is there a minimum term for manslaughter.

Speaker 2 (01:41:35):
There's no minimum term for anything. There's only maximum terms
for things. But yeah, then that follows on to the
next question, is the four years with two years, four years,
four years minimum sentence, that's fucking nothing.

Speaker 1 (01:41:51):
At the time of Joe's death. I don't really understand
that because she's a man center for that.

Speaker 2 (01:41:55):
Time, but because she was incarcerated for the whole time.
It's always with time served. A sentence is never from
the day you are sentenced if you've been incarcerated for
that whole time. So she did spend four years in
jail essentially.

Speaker 1 (01:42:11):
But so too there a man center and then romance.

Speaker 2 (01:42:14):
Center is jail, and that is arguably worse. A lot
of people say that's worse than the prison and everything,
But then you know you've also gone on to say
she found a lovely boyfriend there too.

Speaker 1 (01:42:28):
People, I think a couple of relationships. What do you
think you think? Yeah, obviously that she should be that
she should have been tried for murder.

Speaker 2 (01:42:36):
Yeah, look, I don't know if I disagree, even on
the on the finding of it being man's sort rather
than murder. But I think she should have got whatever
the maximum penalty is for maximum sentences for manswater. I
cannot and do not agree with the four years.

Speaker 1 (01:42:58):
Minimum, and I don't agree with might have be just
getting off.

Speaker 2 (01:43:01):
Oh my god. Okay, then that brings me to my
last part, and the reason I left that to last
is because I'm sorry. In my humble opinion, that is
fucked to me. She is potentially the guiltiest or as guilty. No,
I think, I mean my opinion, she's the most guilty.
She wasn't mentally incapacitated. She wasn't she didn't have psychosis,

(01:43:25):
borderline personality disorder anything she says she was.

Speaker 3 (01:43:29):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:43:29):
I think he used the word coorse but then actually
corrected that she wasn't like under course of control by it.
She just didn't know what to do. Like sorry, that's
not a defense in my mind, that's I think that's fucked.
That person is guilty of murder at the very least
man's order. We didn't have murder in the first to
murder in the second degree like America does. This is

(01:43:50):
probably the only case I've ever thought and maybe we
need that. So I think that's murder in the second degree.
I cannot believe she was entirely acquitted. She's married and
has a fan. I mean, that's not to say anyone
after doing their time can go on and have a
wonderful life and marry and have a family. That's not
to take that away from her, but that she's been
acquitted and she's never she's never had.

Speaker 1 (01:44:14):
I know, justice, I know, And what I kind of
in the in the book, what I what I found
really difficult was Helen Ganna goes to talk to and
who his dad And it is really heartbreaking, it is,
you know, and he's turning up going oh, Marie Chino
won't look at me and everything, and going yeah, of course,

(01:44:35):
but these people are human.

Speaker 2 (01:44:36):
You know, yes, And that is really sad too. It's
not the parents fault. I understand being mad a new
and mar Devi, but obviously not the parents. But then
of course I can understand, well I can't understand, but
I can imagine you wouldn't want to look at anyone
from their camp at all. And oh god, the whole
thing is just heartbreaking. What a terrible waste of.

Speaker 1 (01:45:00):
Life, lives yeah. Yeah, well, well I think I think,
you know, there are a lot of people who have
been hurt by.

Speaker 2 (01:45:10):
This, but there has been lost.

Speaker 1 (01:45:13):
Yeah. Yeah, and I found I found the letter that
a new wrote to her mum really interesting. Yeah, because
it says I'm completely guilty of what I did. I
don't know why I did it.

Speaker 2 (01:45:26):
Yeah, okay, Devil's advocate. That can be a bit of
woe is me? Feel sorry for me because a year
later and I want to have a diminished responsibility?

Speaker 1 (01:45:33):
I do, I do wonder you know how much of
it was her going I'm going to act like I'm
mad too, Yeah, I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:45:40):
You just don't know diminished responsibility for a number of reasons.
I'm going to act like this, or I'm going to go,
oh I'm sad, I might be found guilty. I'll say, oh,
he didn't deserve this, he was wonderful. I'm the one
that should have gone.

Speaker 1 (01:45:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:45:53):
I feel a little bit like getting out my mini violin?

Speaker 1 (01:45:55):
Is it only dimished and you don't have one? Is
the only diminished responsibility in Australia? Is that what it's called? Everywhere?

Speaker 3 (01:46:02):
Is it?

Speaker 1 (01:46:03):
Yeah? Because there's another term for it where I'm digs
just fun. Didn't he said?

Speaker 2 (01:46:10):
He didn't say he didn't because he's sleeping and I'm
upset enough now I'm also choking.

Speaker 1 (01:46:18):
She's yelling at you.

Speaker 2 (01:46:19):
He smells like he's wearing a chocolates.

Speaker 1 (01:46:23):
You're a dipper.

Speaker 2 (01:46:25):
Because he's a Hey, can we go?

Speaker 1 (01:46:29):
Before we end today's can we go? Can we go?
We've had so many, so many messages about the Fred
and Rose West episode. People have absolutely devoured that. I
know a lot of people listen to it in one city.

Speaker 2 (01:46:40):
I know, and God love you all. But also I'm
really mad at you all for all going yay two
and a half of our episode.

Speaker 1 (01:46:47):
It was so much work.

Speaker 2 (01:46:49):
I love you all so much.

Speaker 1 (01:46:50):
But let us rest. Look, we're going to go to
some letters. So this one comes from Shanna, our mail bag.
If you want to leave us and internet letter, you
can Sammy at justinother company, dot com dot au.

Speaker 2 (01:47:03):
We'll follow us on Instagram. You can send us message
there at just another podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:47:07):
Come on, you can do it. You can do it.
You can do it.

Speaker 2 (01:47:10):
Not another crime focus.

Speaker 1 (01:47:12):
Yeah, Also you can leave as a voicemail. All the
links are below. We call the website to speak pipe,
but we're going to be here through the Christmas and
holiday periods and we would absolutely love to hear from
you during that time. We're going to keep you company,
so why don't you keep us company as well. This
is from Shanna. Hey guys, I just finished the Fred
and Rose West episode. Oh wow. I had to stop

(01:47:33):
a few times to get through it, but I made
it to the end. I'm from England and neew of them,
but I was like five when all of this happened,
so didn't really know any of the details. On a
different note and not true crime related, Georgia, I need
recommendations for shows to see in London please. I am

(01:47:54):
heading back home to England for the first time in
nine years on Saturday and staying in London for a
few days. I need to know what is good, so
please let me know. As always love the podcast Heaps.
You guys are awesome. Have a beautiful afternoon.

Speaker 2 (01:48:11):
Oh my god. Thanks Shanna. Sammy please send me email
address so I can email her before because if she's
going on Saturday, this episode doesn't come out to Monday,
so I'll email you before anyone else who's interested. Lamey's
on the West End always it's like one of the
longest running I think maybe the longest running after Fantom
finished up there. Yeah that always. I think six is

(01:48:34):
still playing there. That's great, it's quick and fun.

Speaker 1 (01:48:38):
Yeah, funny.

Speaker 2 (01:48:40):
Trying to think of what else is playing there at
the moment. Bless o cal and SEENI but I would
like to I apologize. I've been to Broadway twice in
the last year, but not the West End, so I've
got to know what else. Oh, Operation mince Meat? Great?

Speaker 1 (01:48:54):
Great, right, Operation mince Meat? Yes, okay, well, yeah, there's
some great options there and so yeah, so glad that
you enjoyed the Fred and Rose Rose West episode. Not enjoyed,
but you know, but I found it really interesting because
you did it in a really in depth way. A
lot of people are talking about how how the documentary
did it in a different way, and this was good

(01:49:15):
to hear kind of the full story, even if people
knew this before. Oh.

Speaker 2 (01:49:19):
Thanks, that's really nice as well, because I even said
in the episode like it wasn't really in that in
depth because I didn't go into any of the heinous
sexual abuse.

Speaker 1 (01:49:29):
Yeah, well it was.

Speaker 2 (01:49:30):
I didn't want to, but it was in Yeah. Yeah,
there's even obviously more to it than that. But you're right,
the docos just kind of goes into kind of starts
with an assumption that you.

Speaker 1 (01:49:41):
Know, yeah, yeah, exactly, which is always hard for a
documentary like I think the John Benet Ramsey wanted. Netflix
did that as well, and sometimes you go, Okay, well
we don't know what if we don't know much about it.

Speaker 2 (01:49:53):
Sammy, that's why people need to listen to this podcast, right,
people that they get the background story and that's how
they fallen love.

Speaker 1 (01:50:00):
With us, fall in love with us and.

Speaker 2 (01:50:03):
He perform out of Love with him for the moment.

Speaker 1 (01:50:06):
Also, there was someone who commented, Joe Turner who's been.

Speaker 2 (01:50:09):
On the Yes, oh my god, so Joe Turner longtime
listeners will recognize his name or if you don't, please
go back and listen. Sammy did a one on one
Thursday Treat episode with him about the Danie La Plant story.
He wrote a book about daniela plant, and Joe Turner's
commented on our Instagram and I'm saying this off the

(01:50:32):
top of my goddamn head. I'm not even looking at
my phone right now. He messaged and said, not only
did I do an episode with you about Daniel plant.
My parents lived near the West and I bought furniture
from Fred West. Is that right?

Speaker 1 (01:50:47):
Memory installed their fireplace.

Speaker 2 (01:50:49):
Installed their fire.

Speaker 1 (01:50:51):
In the house. They had it removed since he did
say that.

Speaker 2 (01:50:54):
He said after after finding out what they did, we
had it removed. But I'm sorry, Joe Turner, but things
come in threes. So what other true crime story do
you have a connection with?

Speaker 3 (01:51:07):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:51:07):
Absolutely, what about this one. This is a speak pipe
aka voice Welcome Cat.

Speaker 4 (01:51:14):
Hi, Georgie, and Sammy.

Speaker 1 (01:51:15):
This is Cat.

Speaker 4 (01:51:17):
I've been listening from the start of your podcast. Still
loving it. This is my second speak pipe. I'm sitting
here with my dog Clancy.

Speaker 2 (01:51:26):
Oh, I remember Cat mug.

Speaker 4 (01:51:30):
And I've just finished the Friend and Rose Good Story,
which was Yeah, I mean we all know what that is. Now.
I love this podcast. I've been recommending it to people.
I've been getting them.

Speaker 2 (01:51:44):
To listen to it.

Speaker 4 (01:51:45):
I've got other people hooked and I'm trying to let
go of something because this is from quite a few
episodes ago now, but it keeps popping into my head
and I just need to get it out. When Sammy
did an episode on the Mona Lisa being stolen, he
was not saying Mona as I believe it's pronounced. He

(01:52:06):
was saying Mona, Lisa. The thing is, Georgia, you didn't
correct her, which makes me feel like maybe Mona is correct.

Speaker 2 (01:52:17):
But oh my god, I really thought it was Mona.

Speaker 4 (01:52:20):
So I'm just questioning myself now because I feel like Georgia,
you would have corrected him if he was wrong. You didn't,
But I feel like I'm right. It just needs to
get that off my chest. Okay, love you guys, eve
to what you're doing.

Speaker 1 (01:52:39):
Fuck.

Speaker 2 (01:52:39):
I love our listeners. Fuck I love our listeners. Okay,
can you be really honest. I didn't correct you because
I was hearing myself and going, you stupid bitch, are
so annoying, and you just stop correcting your best friend.
I'm just being like an annoying I'm being Have you
ever watched How I Met Your Mother?

Speaker 1 (01:52:59):
No? Really? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:53:02):
Okay, you know my best friend anyone? Anyway. I like
that show. But Ted Moseby is the main character who
I love but like really famously people hate him, and
one of the things he does is correct people's English
and brother, so I know that I do it a lot. Also,
it's funny that I said correct English because obviously, Mona

(01:53:23):
Lisa is not English English, Yeah, Inglish, se yes. I
correct people. Often sometimes I stop myself because I'm going
you're being a bitch. Just let it go now, Mona Lisa.
Mona Lisa is Italian. I believe in Italian it's Mona Lisa,

(01:53:48):
which could be heard Mona Lisa or Monalesea. It's kind
of in between. I let it go because I don't know.
I believe that English speaking people usually pronounce it Mona Lisa,
but I'm not certain that that is correct. So I

(01:54:09):
didn't say I let it go, but Cat did not. Cat,
you are one of mine.

Speaker 1 (01:54:16):
Thank you, Cat for getting me in trouble after the fact,
we've also got let's do.

Speaker 2 (01:54:24):
Why is this why I am in the position of
life that I am.

Speaker 1 (01:54:31):
No, you're a wonderful person.

Speaker 2 (01:54:33):
Why wou't you look me in the eye. I can't.

Speaker 1 (01:54:38):
Love the show.

Speaker 3 (01:54:41):
Since you got Mister Sunday Movies was my first introduction.
Then you know, every time I'm going to drive through
you know, Hoddle street work and stuff, I've been yeah,
pumping it so good ship. I have a suggestion for
I'm living in Melbourne, but I'm from the Blue mountains

(01:55:02):
outside of Sydney, and there's this case of a missing
woman called Blinda Peasley and basically you can find a
doco on iView.

Speaker 1 (01:55:14):
I think that's where I got right.

Speaker 3 (01:55:15):
Okay, it's this woman who or young lady who got
a house from like a dead relative I think it was,
and it basically turned into a trap house. Katoomba at
the time was like big Heroin capital.

Speaker 1 (01:55:31):
So I turned into a trap house.

Speaker 3 (01:55:33):
And she went missing and no one really looked into
it for like thirteen years in open up a thing
until thirteen years later. So they're asking a bunch of
like you know, Heroin addicts, what happened on.

Speaker 2 (01:55:46):
The specific nor years ago.

Speaker 1 (01:55:49):
I just think that's crazy.

Speaker 3 (01:55:51):
But I bring it up because I actually lived in
that house after she'd gone missing a rent, so that
would just be an interesting listening.

Speaker 1 (01:56:03):
All right, thanks go.

Speaker 2 (01:56:06):
Bye bye bye bye bye. Wow, that's fascinating many thank
you for.

Speaker 1 (01:56:09):
Listening down Hoddle Street.

Speaker 2 (01:56:12):
When he said I drive down Hoddle Street to work,
first of all, you'll drive past my work. Secondly, I
thought you were going to suggest Julian Knight And if
if any listeners don't know what I'm talking about. Don't
look it up. I'll do it another time. Yeah, yeah, Benny,
that's fascinating.

Speaker 1 (01:56:31):
Wow, we'll definitely have to do that. Thank you to
everyone that always writes in. You can write in, send
me an email to send me at just another company
dot com dot au. You can send a voicemail. All
the links are below.

Speaker 2 (01:56:43):
You can follow us at not Another Crime Podcast on TikTok.

Speaker 1 (01:56:48):
Also, you can leave well, no, leave us.

Speaker 2 (01:56:52):
Five us, leave us a five star, Tell at least
three friends.

Speaker 1 (01:56:58):
Still on social media.

Speaker 2 (01:57:00):
Oh my god, tag us on such media. Sammy, I
love our listeners so freaking much.

Speaker 1 (01:57:07):
SAME's Oh good.

Speaker 2 (01:57:10):
I was actually at a funeral last week and had
three different people come up to me to say how
much they.

Speaker 1 (01:57:14):
Loved this podcast. Oh I love that so much.

Speaker 2 (01:57:16):
How beautiful is that?

Speaker 1 (01:57:17):
That is beautiful? Thank you to Oliver Clark doing the
music and the artwork.

Speaker 2 (01:57:23):
You sound like you're about to wrap up. Repeave again.
Now we don't always do it. We forgot it last week.

Speaker 1 (01:57:29):
But we always do it right at the end. So, Georgia,
what is your repeat?

Speaker 2 (01:57:32):
It will start churning, people start turning off when they
hear us.

Speaker 3 (01:57:36):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:57:36):
No, I'll do mine first. Okay, looking up. I had
to call the doctor last week because I need to
get a repeat prescription for my anxiety medication. I only
did it as a tallyhealth appointment ninety two dollars, oh.

Speaker 2 (01:57:53):
My, just to get a new prescription. And then you've
got to pay for the subscription.

Speaker 1 (01:57:57):
That is nuts. When when you only we are getting
a script refilled. It is a two second conversation. My
pet peeve is that they're charging you through the asshole,
charging you through the goddamn asshole.

Speaker 2 (01:58:10):
We're talking about bums today.

Speaker 1 (01:58:11):
A lot about bums today.

Speaker 2 (01:58:13):
All right, mind, I've got two things that I'm actually
gonna say us stories. They're not pet beeves, they're straight
up hates. But then the third thing on my list.

Speaker 1 (01:58:25):
A woopy Goldberg once said, they said to you have
pet peeves, and she says, I have whole kennels of irritation.

Speaker 2 (01:58:32):
Oh my god, that's me. I'm woopi Goldberg say that
because you're thinking of will be a cushion, because you're
talking about bums a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:58:39):
Yeah, I'm talking about.

Speaker 2 (01:58:39):
Bumps people dressing. Oh my god, my pet Beeves were bumps.

Speaker 1 (01:58:44):
This is great. I'm a bordal of them.

Speaker 2 (01:58:47):
People dressing their bums on planes.

Speaker 1 (01:58:51):
I hate what do you mean?

Speaker 2 (01:58:54):
People dressing like they are sitting on their couch eating
their KFC in front of a movie. The freaking airport,
dirty tracksuit pants and active wear, and just like people
dressing like they are sitting on their own couch at home.

(01:59:17):
On a plane, you don't have to dress up, right,
You don't have to wear a suit unless you're a
business class. That is caveat. But if you're going to
the airport and you're going on a plane, just dress
like you're leaving the house. Do you not notice that?
Like these days this scene, babes, I'm such an old,
grumpy carrying lady. But in my day you would get

(01:59:40):
dressed nicely and that could just be jeans and a
goddamn T shirt. Sure to get on a plane. Everyone
is walking through the airport in their big oversized tracksuit
pants and like little crop tops and stupid big huge
over the top of headphones, like all slouchy walking through
the airport and getting on the plane. If you're going

(02:00:01):
on a long flight that you're gonna sleep, change into
comfort clothes on the plane. If you're not even it's
a domestic flight, So you wear them on the plane
because you are in like society, you are interacting with
other people, You're sitting in communal chairs, you're in like
cafes and stuff at the airport terminal. Dress normally, dress nicely. Again,

(02:00:26):
I'm not saying like you have to dress up, but
just where like you and I wearing. Now, I'm wearing
like a white shirt and denim shorts. You're wearing jeans
and a T shirt. That's great, that's fine. Don't wear
over oversized, gross, dirty trackies and a crop top like
you're going to the gym or lounging on your couch.
I'm angry. Now, Okay, you meant to agree with me
with that. You don't agree, but I think right we're

(02:00:50):
going angry. You and I are both going to Hoba
on the weekend. We're not gonna be at the airport
at same time.

Speaker 1 (02:00:56):
But I'm gonna wear my tracksuit. No, if I don't
get dressed on the way.

Speaker 2 (02:01:02):
When you arrive in Hobert and we reconvene, I'm going
to say to you, did you look around and notice
everyone dressed like bums? And did it make you angry?
And you're going to say no, that's.

Speaker 1 (02:01:17):
I was wearing my strike eye mask.

Speaker 2 (02:01:21):
Just you don't have to dress up. Just dress please,
just like you're going to work in normal off its.
Dress like you're going to walk down the street and
see somebody for a coffee. That's fine, that's fine, that's
I'm fine with that. Okay, you're going to meet somebody
for a coffee dressed like that. Don't dress like you're
going to sit on your couch all day or go

(02:01:41):
to the before. I love KFC, but that's the thing.
When you're eating your KFC at home on the couch,
you want to be comfy. You don't need No, no,
you don't. Now my poeldry peeve is you do not
agree with I love you guys. There's another really long episode, Sammy,
that was really beautiful. Thank you so much. That was devastating.

(02:02:04):
I'm gonna go on a deep dive as soon as
I get home and probably cry some more. Please or
let us know how much you love, hated, hated, loved
this episode, Sammy. Thank you, goodbye bye,

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