March 22, 2022 • 68 mins
#OrdineroliSpeaking Cate Campbell is a swimming superstar, with eight Olympic medals to her name, not to mention flag bearing honours at Tokyo 2020. Her success in the pool is even more remarkable given her struggles out of it. Diagnosed with anxiety and depression, Cate wants to share her story to try and help normalise conversations around mental health. Her candid nature and humour makes for an enjoyable and eye-opening chat.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Ordinarily Speaking. We always talk about the shiny side of success,
but don't see what happens on the flip side of
that coin, all the dark, crazy, heartbreaking challenges that go
into making success too soon time.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Hello, and welcome to a new episode of Ordinarily Speaking.
Kate Campbell is a swimming superstar. The four time Olympian
and Tokyo flag bearer has won eight Olympic medals, four gold,
one silver, and three bronze. She's using her success in
the pool as a platform to start a conversation out
of it, a way to help people emerge from the
(00:50):
deep end. In this chat, the effervescent twenty nine year
old speaks from the heart about being diagnosed with depression
and anxiety. Kate opens up on her lowest moments and
her ongoing struggle with a stigma surrounding mental health issues.
If this chat is triggering for you, please know there
is help out there. Beyond blue dot org, dot AU
(01:12):
or Lifeline one three double one one four are just
a couple of places you can go. I hope you
enjoyed the chat.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Myself down again.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
I mean you are okay, Thanks so much for spending
some time with me. I'm really looking forward to this chat.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Ah, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
You've been really open about your mental health in recent months.
Why did you decide to take a private subject public.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
I think a long time before I felt comfortable sharing
it publicly, I kept it very private. Why I decided
to start speaking about it was if I knew that
other people may be struggled with the same things that
I did, maybe it would have been more normalized, and
maybe I would have sought help a little bit earlier,
(02:05):
or maybe I just wouldn't have felt so ashamed and
so isolated and so lonely. And I think that sometimes
we look at quote unquote successful people and I guess that,
you know, if I was going to be lumped in
a category, I could get lumped in that successful category.
And I think that sometimes we think that they are
(02:26):
inherently different from us, that they reach their success without
experiencing the same things that we do, or feeling the
same emotions or going through the same setbacks. And that's
just not the case. And so I wouldn't want anyone
who is struggling with mental health or low mood or
(02:47):
anxiety or anything like that to think I can't go on.
And I can't achieve something. It took a long time
for me to be able to feel comfortable enough to
share publicly. And I I'm now on medication for anxiety
and depression and I still am And it's interesting because
I still feel ashamed when I go to the chemist
(03:09):
and go and fill those scripts and having the pharmacist,
you know, possibly recognize me and then look at the
medication that I'm taking, and I know that I shouldn't
feel ashamed, and logically I'm not ashamed, but that there
are still those feelings of stigma and shame associated with
(03:30):
mental ill health. And I think the more that we
can talk about it and normalize it, the less people
have to be feeling like that.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Ashamed is a big word, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
M Yeah, you want to like curl up and shrivel
up and hide, and you don't want to be seen,
and you're afraid to step into your own skin. You
want to hide within it and look. I think that
women in particular are told to feel ashamed about so
many things. There are so many things that and we
(04:01):
can feel ashamed about if we can start to peel
back the layers and question why we're being conditioned to
feel these things. I think that once you begin to
name something, you begin to have a bit more power
over it. And even though I have these feelings of
shame still associated with my mental health, I can rise
(04:25):
above it, and I can continue to speak about it
while carrying those feelings with me. I'm no longer mastered
by them, so to speak. I can recognize that, you know,
feelings are irrational, but I like to think that most
of the time, I'm a pretty rational creature, so I
can continue to behave an irrational manner even though I
might be feeling a little irrational.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
It's so funny that you mentioned being a woman as
a part of mental health, because I've got a bit
of a theory or something that I've noticed that men
seem to be getting more comfortable talking about mental health
than women are. My theory is that women have always
sort of been told that they're good at talking about
their feelings, but it's almost now been seen as an
(05:10):
empowering thing for men to do it, whereas when women
do it, it's still labeled a little bit of Oh, you're
not tough enough, or you're too emotional, or you're nodding along.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
What do you think.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
About that as a sort of theory I guess of
the way, the direction we're moving in.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
I think it's really interesting because for so long women
have been tainted by this hysteria brush, right, and we've
been told that our feelings are what make us weak,
they are what make us irrational, they're what make us poorer.
(05:47):
Decision makers are not as good at leading people or
making really logical, rational decisions. We're actually finding that's not
the case, right, We're actually finding that emotional intelligence is
a really key factor to making clear, rational decisions. It's
a really important factor in making connections, which inherently makes
(06:09):
you a better leader because you can take people along
the journey with you. But I think that when women
are talking about mental health, it's just like, ah, that's
just hysterical. You know, they're just having a bit of
a cry, or it's a bit of PMS, right, or
maybe they're going through menopause or perimenopause, and we just
(06:31):
expect women to be more emotional and more teary. And
I think that there's a real difference between being emotional
and then you know that mental ill health, and sometimes
it's a fine line and you can kind of dip
into one or dip into the other. But I don't
(06:53):
want to take away anything from the progress that has
been made in men talking about them mental health and
seeking support and beginning to share their feelings and shedding
that kind of toxic masculinity banner that they've been forced
to labor under for a really long time. And I
think that that's a really good thing. But I think
(07:15):
that we also need to recognize that when women say
that I'm really not feeling well, they're not being hysterical,
they're not on PMS. They maybe have shared this many
times with their friends, but maybe they still need to
go and seek help.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
You are so eloquent, this is going to be a
lot of You've had a heape of success across your career,
but with that comes a lot of public pressure, a
lot of I would imagine your own expectations are so
high on yourself just hearing you talk over the years.
How do you handle the fear of failure because that
(07:56):
particularly for athletes, but all humans that fear of failure,
and you are somebody that demands excellence of yourself, how
does that hit you across life?
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Yeah, it's really interesting because I think that fear of
failure is wrapped up in that feeling of shame that
we were talking about earlier, and that feeling of social ostracism,
which you know, we can get into the science of
human evolution and how humans fear that worse than death.
That's why you feel really nervous when you're speaking in
(08:28):
front of people, because you just want people to like you, right,
because being a part of a tribe is so entrenched
and part of our DNA. It's how we were wired
to survive. It's paramount to death. If in the clan
times you were cast out from your clan, you would
be in the wilderness. You'd freeze to death, or you
get eaten by a wild animal. So there is this
(08:54):
real psychological, deep seated fear of failure and the so
ostracism that comes with it. And I think that for
a long time, I'm a big believer that if you
don't accept something, then you can't learn from it. And
for a long time I was unable to accept that
(09:17):
I had this fear of failure, and so I was
hiding from it and I was refusing to acknowledge that
it was there. And I have incredibly high standards for myself.
I'm not afraid of that, but I think that sometimes
we measure success too narrowly, and it is all outcome
(09:40):
focused and outcome based. My wind lose margins, so my
success failure margins one hundreds and tenths of a second
once every four years, or if you're lucky, once every
five years. And I just think that if we're measuring
our success off of that which can be so closely
tied to our personal identity, then we are setting ourselves
(10:04):
up for this fear of failure. Whereas my goal was
and always has been to win an individual Olympic gold medal,
and I have been to four Olympics and I have
not achieved that, and that begs the question, if that
is my goal and I have not achieved it, am
I successful?
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Right?
Speaker 1 (10:23):
And that's a really interesting question, because if we look
at my career over many many years subjectively objectively, I
am successful.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Bloody is successful?
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Right.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
But if we have such narrow definitions of success, then
we really set ourselves up for failure. And so I've
had to learn to change my definition of success and
have it as a more internal model that I work
off and an internal scorecard. If I can do that,
(10:56):
then even though the outcome may not be exactly what
I wanted, and this big goal that I've put out
there and I have been chasing my whole life, I
can still walk away and feel like I've had some
measure of success.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
It's funny you mentioned that I had aim In Sullivan
on in Season one of Ordinarily Speaking, and obviously he
was the hot you know, favorite to be the world
record holder to win, and he said he wants to
get to a point where he can proudly tell his
kids I won silver, and not that I didn't win
gold or that I lost gold. Can you empathize with
(11:35):
that sentiment?
Speaker 1 (11:37):
I can. And it's interesting because if we take my
results from the most recent Olympics in Tokyo, I won
two gold medals as part of relay teams and one
individual bronze medal. And it's interesting when I feel like
I'm a Grade fiver and go to show and tell
so often because I just take my medals and show
(11:58):
them around to people, get them out.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Where are they actually are? We're in your hotel room
at the moment, and there is a metal wrapped up
in I hope they're they're clean socks clean socks.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Don't worry, they're clean. So oh that's brilliant. Oh so,
But when when I go and I show people, they
instantly gravitate towards those gold medals and they grab them,
and those are the ones that they want photos with.
But when I look at them, and I'm incredibly proud
(12:36):
of all of them, but when I look at them,
there the bronze metal has like extra special meaning to me.
But externally, that's that's not seen and that's not validated.
I would say, though, that we are so quick to
own our successes, but we are less quick to own
our failures. And something that I am really passionate about
(12:59):
is is owning both of those and owning both of
those publicly. So when I speak, I usually mentioned what
happened in Rio, where I was like Aiman, I was
the gold medal favorite, the world record holder going in,
except that instead of winning a silver medal, I won
no medals in that race. And the more I talk
(13:22):
about it, the less sting it has. But it also
helps me own that part of my story and that
part of my journey, and the more I've spoken about it,
the less ashamed I feel about it, because it's out
there and people can see it and they can judge
me for all the successes, but then all the failures
(13:44):
as well. It's really interesting whenever I go and speak,
the MC will introduce me and they'll just be like
this long highlight list, and I'm like, well, that's not
actually a true representation of what I have done and
who I am. Underneath every one of those successes, there's
like three or four really big failures. If I want
(14:06):
to be seen and accepted for who I am, then
I think that I need to display those as well,
and not just the highlights.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
And I guess that's what this podcast is about. It's
about celebrating the resilience that it took to have those
successful moments. I do want to also state, though I
know for you and not getting a medal in a
final is a failure for the rest of the world,
being one of the eight fastest swimmers in that field
is still bloody successful. But just going back to when
(14:36):
I first it was really interesting because obviously this is
a podcast, so nobody can see, but when I first
asked you about fear of failure, you put your hand
on your chest and almost leaned forward as though you
were constricted by just the conversation of it. And you
mentioned there how you are so hard on yourself, and
it's brilliant for a journalist to hear the raw honesty.
(14:58):
But how hard is that to to live within your
own head, I guess, and those elite expectations.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
So it's funny because I think that sometimes our greatest
weaknesses and our greatest strengths are two sides of the
same coin.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Agree totally.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
So I have incredibly high standards for myself, and I
set big goals and I challenge myself. I am relentless,
and that is a really good thing. It's driven me
to get to where I am. But if I go
too far and I tip over into constantly relentlessly pushing
(15:39):
myself and not acknowledging the little winds along the way,
or not being kind to myself when things don't go
your way, whether it's my fault, whether it's luck. Like
I don't think that we acknowledge the role that luck
plays in life enough because sometimes you can do absolutely
everything right and then just luck doesn't go your way right,
(16:02):
and we don't acknowledge that enough. But when that strength,
that that motivation, those high standards, those expectations. When they
flip and they go too far, then they begin to
beat me down instead of pull me up. And so
it's about finding that right balance between pushing myself and
challenging myself, but then also knowing when it's okay to
(16:26):
be kind to yourself and to let those standards lax.
And for so long, you know, I think that self
care is having like a real moment and like taking
time for you and all of that. And I used
to I used to hate that, like and you know,
do something for fun, Like I don't have time for fun.
I need to go and do things. But I now
see the real benefit in that. And yes, there's there's
(16:49):
a time to knuckle down, and there's a time to
work when you don't feel like it and it's not fun.
But it is also really important to find joy in
life because that is going to keep you motivated for
a long time. So it's about figuring out what makes
you tick, what makes you work, but then being really
careful that that strength that you have doesn't become this
(17:13):
weapon that you beat yourself with and drive yourself into
the ground.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
It's so true you mentioned rio. Take me back to
that moment and how you felt in that moment.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Yeah, it's really interesting. I remember feeling fine until sort
of twenty four hours or so, but before the final
and I received a message from a friend and I
was kind of like intermittently checking my social media, not
(17:49):
Instagram or not Facebook, but some of my more private channels.
And I got a message from a friend saying, oh,
I've hired out whole boardroom so that everyone in my
office can watch you race. And I just I suddenly
was like, Oh my god, they're going to be expecting
me to win. That's why they hied the boardroom. That's why.
(18:13):
And I was like, and if I don't win, then
I'm going to look like an absolute fool. They're going
to look like a fool. And it just I was
just like, and I bet there's so many other people
who are going to be watching this, and if I
don't win, I'm going to be just the absolute laughing stock.
And it kind of flicked a bit of a switch,
(18:35):
and I was just stuck in this fight or flight mode.
You know, I've done all of the sports psychology and
the breathing and meditation and everything like that, but I
couldn't flick this switch off. Once it was on. From
that point on, when anyone spoke to me, I was
just like, they expect me to win, they want me
(18:57):
to win. I have to win. Tension shifted from what
I need to do if you want to be you know,
we talk a lot about being process driven instead of
outcome driven, and it just everything became outcome driven because
I suddenly saw this big danger of if I didn't win,
there was gonna be some really bad consequences. And I
(19:19):
was gonna, you know, be the absolute fol I'm a
pretty gullible person, so and I'm used to being laughed
at a lot, but I really don't like it, Like
I can't take it in a lot. And I was like,
everyone's gonna be laughing at me, and so behind the block,
I've never felt in such a heightened state. It was
like there were so many thoughts racing around my head
(19:40):
that I couldn't even grab hold of one of them.
It was felt like there was the equivalent of TV
static being played in my head when you want to
be cool and calm or have a focus point for
what you need to do in your race. But all
the time I was like, I'm you know, I'm doing
my breathing exercises. I'm doing everything that I can, like,
(20:01):
it's all going to be fine. You're telling yourself that
it's going to be fine when your subconscious brain is
like danger, danger, danger, And you know everyone has has
a small fear of false starting. I've never false started
in my life. I've never flinched on the block. It's
never been an issue for me. And yet when I
went down, I flinched on the block, which can end
(20:25):
up in disqualification or it cannot. It goes either way.
You know, a flinch on the block before the gun goes,
you're pretty lucky to get away with it. And I
was just like, oh my god, like I've never been
in that state before. It was really interesting because when
I turned and put my feet on the wall at
the fifty meter mark, I knew that this was going
(20:50):
to be a long way home. Like I just knew
that it would take everyone else in the race to
have as shocking a time as I was having for
me to get this done. And fifty meters can be
a really long way. And my brain was screaming at
me to go. But once you've opened the floodgates and
(21:10):
you flooded your body. With lyctoc acid, your muscles begin
to shut down, and it doesn't matter what your brain
is telling you, which is something that I really dislike.
In sport, we're told, oh, it's the last ten meters,
it's whoever's mentally tough enough to get there, and I
just think that's complete bullshit, because everyone who's in that
race is so mentally tough, and sometimes your body just
(21:31):
actually shuts down and it doesn't matter what your mind
screaming at you. So my mind was screaming at me,
but my body was like, oh, you've really cooked us,
You've really done a number on this. And I touched
the wall, and to be honest, like I could see
the girls next to me who were ahead of me,
who ended up winning, and so I knew I hadn't won.
(21:55):
I kind of vaguely looked at the board and saw
that I hadn't even got a medal, and then it
was just this big whirlwind blur of like, oh, my god,
you know that everything that you were terrified of before
the race, well that's your reality now. It was like
I was just in a daze, and I got out
(22:15):
and I did the post race interview, and then I
had the really long, lonely walk back down to the
Australian team area. And it's really interesting when people fail
or they don't perform well, other people don't know what
to do either, right, And so I felt really shunned
(22:37):
by some people because they were processing their discomfort with
what they just watched and maybe they were empathizing, right,
you know, and they don't know what to do. I
warmed down, but then there was this really beautiful moment.
By this stage, it was two or three am, and
(22:58):
I went back to the village and there were a
group of athletes who had finished competing and they were
waiting for me in the dining hall so that I
would have someone to eat dinner with. And it's funny,
it's like those moments that I remember really clearly, and
everything else around it, it's all just this big haze
because I didn't have time to fully process it or
(23:20):
understand it, because I still had races to do and
I had to refocus and I had to go again.
But it's those moments of kindness that really shone through
and helped me be like, oh, it's going to be okay.
And yeah, it was horrible and it was heartbreaking, and
after I finished racing, I think everyone went out on
(23:43):
that final night and I just went back to my
room in the village and just cried, like just sobbed
and couldn't didn't want to face anyone, and didn't want
to do anything. But the little bits of kindness that
were shown to me immediately after the race allowed me
to continue to do what I needed to do for
(24:04):
the rest of the week.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
You tell that whole story like you're staring back, Like
you know when you're in the pool, You're back in
the pool. When you're walking out, it's like you are
back doing that walk everything. It's almost like you're visualizing
being back in that moment.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Is that Yeah, Well, when we have really heightened emotions,
it brands that memory into our brains, and ultimately that's
why we have emotions, right, so that we can remember things.
So it's like a big warning sign like hey, this
was really dangerous and it was really bad and you
felt really awful. We're going to remember everything about it,
(24:41):
Like I can see it in crystically a deity detail,
and I've spoken about it enough that I don't have
to go back down into the feelings of the emotions.
I can kind of detach from them a little bit.
But for a long time, every time I spoke about it,
I could feel those emotions like welling up and put
pushing inside of me and leaking out my eyes. I
(25:03):
would just I'd start talking about it and it'd just
start crying. People be like, Oh, I'm so sad, I'm
so sorry. I don't mean to do it. I'm like,
it's okay, Like it'll stop. I'm actually I'm not that upset,
but for whatever reason, there's just that's just this well
of grief associated with it, and eventually it'll stop. And
sometimes if I'm really tired and you know, not in
(25:24):
a good frame of mind, it'll bubble up again. But
I think that for better or for worse, these moments
of high impact are really branded into our psyche. But
I think that I have consciously turned and looked at
and faced it, as opposed to turning away from it,
which is probably maybe the easier thing to do. But
(25:47):
then it spills out in other ways.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
What was the shame story that you told yourself after
that race?
Speaker 1 (25:53):
I have always thought of myself as someone who is
very reliable. When I stand up to deliver something, I
can usually do it, even in stressful situations or when
I'm nervous. Nerves actually sometimes bring out the best in me.
(26:16):
And so the story that I tell myself is like,
you can do it, and you are capable, and you're reliable.
People love winners, right.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
We do.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
We love winners, and I am no longer reliable. I
am no longer a winner, and therefore I am unlovable
and my only worth is what I can produce in
the pool, and I haven't delivered in that. So therefore,
why do people want to know me? And it was
(26:53):
really interesting because I was feeling like that, but I
found out that I was in the minority. Yes, there
were some horrible people and there were some horrible things
said about me, but the majority of people were actually
really kind about it. One of the best and worst
things that I did after the games was usually after
(27:15):
an Olympic Games, we get to go around and do
sort of ticke take parades in all the capital cities
around Australia. And I did that and I met so
many of the general public and every time, not every time,
but most of the time when I met people, they
were like, oh, you know, we're so proud of you.
Did such a good job, and that was so contrary
(27:36):
to how I was feeling about it. Felt like whenever
anyone gave me a compliment about Rio, felt like someone
was dragging their nails down a chalkboard. But the more
that I heard that from people, the more I realized
that the story that I was telling myself wasn't actually true.
And so while it was uncomfortable for me to hear that,
it was also really good. I actually wanted people to
(27:59):
tell me how awful I was and how disappointed they
were in me, and all of those things.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Because that sat more comfortably in that time.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Oh yeah, and it was in line with the story
that I was telling myself. And we like to be right.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
If I'm going to be a failure, I'm at least
going to be a correct failure.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
I'm at least going to be.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Correct in that failure.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Now you know why I don't have I didn't have
many friends at school that I like to be right
all the time. And also, why are you guys having fun?
We all need to be super serious and we need
to focus on what our career is and why are
you going out? And don't pull on all nighter. You
need to be more prepared. Yeah, Kate, it was not
(28:45):
very popular at school.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
But when to an Olympics at what sixteen was it?
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (28:51):
That didn't make up for all the socials episodes. Oh,
that's actually very funny.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
How long did it You've grown beautifully through that experience.
How long did it take you though, to get back
on track in your mind?
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Oh, I'm not sure that I have an exact time.
It just kind of gradually snuck up on me. So
I made the decision in twenty seventeen that I wouldn't
be competing at the World Championships, so I wouldn't be
competing for Australia at a major or our major international competition,
(29:39):
which was the first time I think since I was
nine years old that I decided that I didn't want
to push myself to be the best in the world
and to represent Australia. Once I made that decision in
probably sort of late twenty sixteen, I kind of was
able to take a breath. I still trained and and
(30:00):
I was able to go and travel and compete at
competitions all around the world, but I wasn't fit, I
wasn't strong. As long as I executed my best race
I was like, yeah, I'm happy with that. I wouldn't
make it on the podium, but there was something just
really joyous about discovering satisfaction in achieving my best performance
again without that burden of expectation. And I found that
(30:23):
joy and that love for the sport again and I
think that was kind of the turning point. So it
was just it was a step away, a conscious step away,
but still leaning in recognizing that, yeah, I want to
give this like another go, see what I can do.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Fell back in love with the sport.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Yeah. Yeah. I termed it as like we were just
on a break.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
We were on a break, Rachel.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Except did it take so many seasons? Was to get
back together?
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Oh there's a friend's episode over everything you're listening to
ordinarily speaking with Kate Campbell. So you get through Rio?
When did your mental health? When did you feel like
something isn't quite right?
Speaker 1 (31:15):
I really struggled after Rio, and I went to my
GP because I was really struggling, and I said, do
I need to be on antidepressants? Like I'm feeling really weird?
And she was like, you know, Okay, you've been through
something really traumatic. I can see that you've got a
good support system around you. You are really aware of this.
(31:38):
I don't think you need to be on antidepressants now.
It's actually completely normal for you to be grieving and
feeling like this. And I was like, oh, okay, cool,
And I'm really glad that at that point she didn't
put me on antidepressants because I don't think it was
the correct thing. And I have, you know, a wonderful
relationship with that GP. I really trusted her judgment. But
(31:59):
she said, keep coming back and we're just going to
keep checking in and making sure that you are progressing.
But I don't want to put you on something that
there are risks and side effects for everything, but that
also might not allow you to fully process this experience.
And then in twenty.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Sorry, just what were the things that you were feeling
at the time that made you have that conversation? Oh?
Speaker 1 (32:27):
I was just I was crying a lot, and I
was wanting to be like really reckless or I was
looking back with this really narrow, bitter lens on this
life that I had led, Like you know, I said, oh,
you know, my life is so beige. I'd been to
three Olympics, Like, that's not a beige life. But I
(32:50):
think that i'd just been I was just so embittered
by all of the sacrifices I'd had to make to
achieve this goal of an Olympic gold medal, and then
it hadn't paid off, and I was just like, well,
what was that for? Why did I put myself through
through that? So then I tried to go off the rails,
but I'm way too sensible to go off the rails, honestly.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
Why The most reckless thing I did was kind of.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Secondy of piercing in my left ear.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
Every time you look at your left ear and do you.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Just go, yeah, that's a reckless Kate nailed it.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Yeah. Yeah. For a long time it was like the
only earring I would wear. I'd be like, yeah, I'm
a bad bitch, like too.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Nerdy to be reckless. I just couldn't channel you inner,
just grable it.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
No, just really didn't enjoy it. And so then I
was like feeling like I was trying all these things
and nothing was making me feel any better. She was
just like, it's completely normal. You're you're going through a
process of grieving and rediscovery. I'm so thankful I don't
go and get a tattoo or something like because that
(34:09):
that could have been a possibility. So and and and
she was right. I took a step back from things
and lean into what life could look like outside of
the pool and got my second ear piercing. And then.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Is that part of your pre race ritual now to
look at that second year piece?
Speaker 1 (34:35):
I actually I actually play with it so much it's
become like a little thing. I'm just like, it's okay, Kate,
You're You're a bad bitch, your secondy and piercing.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Oh god.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
So yeah, I'm really really glad that that she was
cognizant enough just to recognize that this was a completely
normal react and behavior for me, because I'd never been
untethered from the yoke of swimming before I said the
yoke of swimming. But I loved it, really was. It
was a labor of love completely until it wasn't. And
(35:14):
then twenty eighteen was fantastic year for me. Twenty nineteen
was pretty good, but I went through a bad breakup
and I moved to Sydney and was incredibly isolated down there,
struggling to find friends. I also traveled for sort of
five months of that year, some of it by myself,
quite a lot of it by myself. And then I
(35:38):
was kind of hitting my groove and hitting the stride,
hitting my strides and going from strength to strength and
really feeling like this Olympics twenty twenty, it was going
to be my Olympics, right, This was it. Physically, I
was so good in training. I was just doing things
that were just stupid, like I'd never died, I'd never
(35:58):
be I've been able to perform as well as I was.
I was recovering from sets my times. We were so
fast and so consistent with racing really well. I was
strong and I've I've battled kind of weights, were lifting,
so chin ups are like my bread and butter. So
I was, you know, doing chin ups with forty two
(36:21):
forty five kilos around my waist and that's crazy. I'm
can't even do it chin up. I've been doing that
for a long time. So my injuries, you know, I've
been quite injured over the past couple of years, they
were all under control, and it was just like, yes,
I am finally hitting some momentum and moving forward. And
(36:42):
then the twenty third of March twenty twenty, the Olympics
are not happening, and it was just like, oh my god.
And then remember when the whole of Australia went into lockdown,
Like that seems like another lifetime ago. We lost all
access to all training facilities, no access to coach. I
(37:05):
ended up coming back to Brisbane because I'd been living
in Sydney at the time. I didn't want to go
through lockdown in a one bedroom apartment in a suburb
where I had no friends. Came back to Brisbane and
stayed at a house with a couple of my really
good mates, which was wonderful. Discovered that I'm not very
good at exercising by myself, shock horror. So I just
(37:26):
bullied all my housemates into exercising with.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
Me once again. Being friends with Kate sounds like.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Your I was running forty five sessions in the backyard
pilates at lunchtime and they were like locked out, in
the best shape of their life. So they're welcome, but
they were also Once they saw me get in my
car and drive down to Sydney, We're like, oh, thank god, ay.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Got you a bad bitch.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
So I had to leave this environment that where I
was like really well connected and go back down to Sydney.
I was incredibly isolated, and I think that it has
made me realize the impact that loneliness has on people,
and it's a real physical thing. You feel like it's
(38:19):
your fault and that you are unlovable, not that you know.
You live in a city with lots of people who
have incredibly busy lives, and I were already well connected
and plugged into a community. And it's not that they
don't like you, it's just that they don't have the
capacity to think of you. So I'd gone back to
Sydney in May of that year, and then it was
(38:42):
about July. I had no energy. I wasn't recovering. My
injuries were really bad. I was feeling really emotional all
the time and really sad all the time. There wasn't
any joy and sometimes I could go. I would speak
to members of my squad on a Saturday morning and
(39:05):
then not speak to another single person until I went
to training on Monday morning. And there are only so
many beaches that you can explore and sunsets that you
can watch or sunrises that you can photograph that will
try and fill that void. But eventually it kind of
(39:26):
opens up and becomes this chasm that I then just
fell into. So I I had this moment where I
just had a complete meltdown over something that was so irrational.
I was trying to make a cup of hot chocolate
before I went to bed, and the power kept on
tripping and so I couldn't heat up the milk, and
(39:46):
then I just I just cried, and not just like
a little tears, like full sobbing. And I was like, oh,
this isn't normal. There's something wrong. I think I need
to go get some help. So then i'd, like, you know,
(40:06):
I got up early the next morning before training and
googled frantically around for a psychologist because all I needed
to do was get some strategies.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
To help me stop crying. Needed a process.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
I just needed a process. And I remember like going
to training the next morning and being like, oh my god,
I have just booked in to see a psychologist. I
can't let anyone here know because that is admitting weakness.
And like I was so in such an emotionally heightened
place that I had to keep leaving the gym and
(40:41):
going like do breathing exercises in the bathroom to like
try and calm down so that I wouldn't just burst
into tears then, but yeah, it was. It was that
process of like complete meltdown, which I now am able
to pick up a lot earlier, saw a psychology just
for a while, and things got a bit better, and
(41:04):
I felt like I was feeling pretty good. But then
by the time Olympic trials rolled around in June of
twenty twenty one, I realized that things weren't as good
as I thought that they were. So I, like I said,
(41:27):
I'm used to competing in high pressure situations.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
And.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Competition is always Yes, it's nerve racking, but it's kind
of like why I swim, because no one trains to
train like my goodness, so me training it's so boring,
Like whoever says that it's not is a freak, because
sometimes it really is, like you're staring at the black
line for a really long time. You can't talk to people.
It's really hard work. I am only discovering this because
(41:57):
I'm on a bit of a break now, and I
realized that it's not normal to wake up with your
whole body hurting and headache. That it's completely normal to
be able to feel like you can manage the day
without having to like go and lie down for half
an hour finally enough. Training for an Olympic Games is
really hard work. Who would have thought, So you kind
of put yourself through that so that you can compete
(42:19):
and so that you can stand up and see what
you can do. And I had been working with a
psychologist after I moved I moved back to Brisbane at
the beginning of twenty twenty one because my coach moved
moved back to Brisbane. So we'd been training in Brisbane.
So I'd found a new psychologist and I was working
with her. I was working with a sport mindset coach.
I attended like meditation seminars, all of these things, all
(42:43):
of the right things, you know, did all the things
I did, all the things I had equipped myself so well.
And the closer we got to Olympic trials, the more
there was just like this impending sense of doom. So
I'm from Queensland, and the way that I describe it,
(43:06):
it was like before a big storm, you know, when
you can feel that pressure and there's like this mugginess
and this stickiness, and you can feel like something's gonna
happen and it's looming and it's coming, and the closer
I got to the trials sort of, the more intense
(43:26):
that that pressured state became. And nothing I did helped, right, Like,
none of my mind all the mindfulness training, all the
mindset stuff that I was going through, none of it
helped this this feeling that this overwhelming sense of dread
that there was this thing looming.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
It felt physical, It felt physical.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yeah, you know, I couldn't couldn't breathe properly. I started
to get really emotional again, and I just remember, you know,
calling my partner, and my friends are just being like
if I don't make it, like will you still love me?
Like I'm so afraid. I I just need to get
through this if it all goes bad, like will you
(44:11):
still be okay? Like We're still gonna be okay, And
they're all like yes, Kate, of course, of course. Anyway,
I managed to get through Olympic Trials and I qualified
for the one hundred freestyle and the fifty freestyle. But
after the race, there was no sense of joy. There
wasn't even a sense of relief. There was just like,
(44:33):
oh my god, I have to do this again in
five weeks time, I have to do this again. And
I have to feel like this again. And I was
kind of like laughing to disguise how awful I was feeling.
To people. They were like, oh, congratulations, Kate, and I
was like, ha ha ha, I'm never doing this again.
(44:53):
And in my head I was like, this is it.
I'm making it through this Olympics and then I'm retiring
and then I'm out. I'm done. Nothing is worth like this.
Two days after after that, I was lying awake at
night just contemplating that the next five weeks of my life,
and I was just like, hang on, this isn't normal, right,
This isn't you. You love racing and you love competing,
(45:16):
and yeah, you've always been a nervous racer. I always
get very nervous, but that's completely normal. But this is
something different. I think that you might need some help.
You've done everything right. It was at eleven o'clock when
I clicked on my phone and I was like, all right,
I need a book in and see my GP. And
(45:37):
I went in and I was like, I need some help.
And this was four weeks before the Olympic Games.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
How did you feel when you said those words, I
need some help?
Speaker 1 (45:52):
I at this point, I was kind of numb, but
because I was just like, well, I'm feeling so bad,
asking for help or asking to go I meet it
can't hurt, you know. I was very clear that I'm
a bit of a control freak. Surprise, surprise, and I
didn't I didn't want to lose myself. I wanted to
find myself again because I was so lost. You know.
(46:14):
My GP was so wonderful and she was like, Yep,
we definitely have things that we can help you with.
You have extreme high, extremely high levels of anxiety and
probably low levels of depression. The drugs take two to
three weeks to kick in, and I can say that
about sort of a week and a half, two weeks
(46:34):
out from when I was you to start racing, I
gradually began to notice that I was feeling a lot better.
And I now look back and I look at the
months that I spent, you know, working with the psychologists
(46:54):
and the mindset coach and the meditation and all of that,
and I think that all of that is useful, and
I'm really glad that I have those tools. But if
I had, if there had been a normal conversation about
seeking medical help around anxiety and depression, I would have
(47:14):
gotten help a lot earlier, and I probably would have
been able to have been in a much better mental
state for a lot longer and physical state. I've noticed
it since I've allowed my central nervous system to have
a bit of a break from that fight or flight state,
that my injuries have been a lot better as well.
The super acute random flare ups that I was getting
(47:39):
routinely in the lead into the Olympics have calmed down
a lot, not completely, but a lot. So I was
just like, well, if I didn't know how beneficial and
how common it is, you know, once I started, I
spoke to a few really close friends and they were like, oh, yeah,
(48:00):
I'm on that, or I've taken that before, or yeah,
at a really stressful point in my life I did that.
I was like, why didn't you tell me? If I'd
known that, I might have done something earlier. So if
me sharing it and normalizing it means someone who is
feeling really horrible is doing all the right things and
(48:21):
is unsure of, you know, what the future looks like
or what else they can do if it makes them go, oh, actually,
maybe I should go and speak to my GP, and
maybe that'll be really helpful for me. Then I think
that that's a really good thing.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
As an athlete. Were you a bit nervous or terrified
or going on a medicaid? You know, because everything that
you put into your body is is amplified or focused on.
I guess was that a cause of concern? Oh?
Speaker 1 (48:51):
Yeah, it was a massive cause of concern. And like
I said that, there are side effects with every medication,
but at that point, I was just like, it's wor
taking the risk. I don't want to be feeling this
awful when I'm supposed to be competing at an Olympic Games.
I've already felt awful in the wake of an Olympic
Games before. I don't want to go into one feeling
(49:12):
this bad.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
It's a brave call and a clearly a brilliant call.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
It's a desperate call, right, Okay, I wouldn't. I wouldn't
say that it is brave because it was desperation that
drove me to that point.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
Do you feel differently about medication now and even the
word medication? Do you feel differently about it now to
what you did what twelve months ago?
Speaker 1 (49:36):
I rationally feel very different about it because it's allowed
me to find myself again. I am able to cope
with situations and find joy and meaning and connection and
being able to completely relax into who I actually am
(49:57):
instead of constantly having to fight to find that person
through the haze of anxiety and depression. Like I said,
I still struggle every time I go and have to
fill my script in at the pharmacy because there is
such a stigma around it. But it's really interesting because medication, right,
everyone takes a lot of medication without even thinking about it.
(50:20):
I couldn't tell you how many anti inflammatory pills I've
taken in my life and I haven't even thought about it.
And I've been on like prescription anti inflammatory medication. I've
never even blinked. And yet somehow with a medication that
affects your mental state, there's no sense of what you
(50:43):
have an injury and this is to help the inflammation
around that, to help it bring you back down to
a normal level. It's like no, no, no, you're weak.
You should be able to figure this out. You need
to breathe or do mindfulness or speak to a psychologist
and sort out your issues, as opposed to like, actually,
hang on, here's a point of inflammation. There's an injury here,
(51:03):
whether it's either from a really acute event or repetitive strain.
And I think that mine was a repetitive strain injury
to my brain. But there's not a discussion of like,
hang on, there's this point of injury here, let's get
it back down so it's under control and so that
you can begin to function the gain. I don't know.
(51:24):
Maybe that's the way I rationalize it to myself.
Speaker 2 (51:26):
I think it's a great way of looking at it,
because it's not like you ever stand in the mirror
and look at your hamstrings or your calves and go
why you're so weak?
Speaker 3 (51:33):
No?
Speaker 1 (51:33):
No, And often you get to that point because you've
pushed so hard, right, and you know, for better or
for worse, you've pushed past the levels that your body
can cope with, which takes a lot of strength to
do that, right, to push yourself to a point of injury,
(51:53):
it's not something that anyone wants. But if you get
a physical injury, it's like, oh, well, you must have
pushed too hard. But if you are suffering with mental
ill health, it's, oh, well, you're a bit weak for
feeling like this.
Speaker 2 (52:05):
What kind of stuff? And you don't have to share.
What kind of stuff are you talking about with your psychologists?
Speaker 1 (52:10):
Oh, a bit of everything. And it was when I
went to that first session, I was very adamant that
there was absolutely nothing wrong with me. I just needed
some techniques to stop myself crying, right, I need some tools.
I need some tools because I'm a completely normal, rational
person and I am crying irrationally, so therefore, just give
(52:31):
me some tools to calm this down. And I went
in there and I was like, I'm going to be
so cool and so calm. Just you wait, I'm going
to be like the best patient that she's ever seen.
Speaker 3 (52:42):
You're even competitive with them?
Speaker 1 (52:45):
Oh my god, I know, I'm honestly insufferable. She gave
me like this survey to fill out, and I was like, yeap,
I really nailed that. She definitely doesn't think I am
a complete nut job, because only nut jobs come and
see psychologists. And she looked at it and she was like,
so I'm seeing extreme levels of anxiety and high levels
(53:08):
of depression. And I was just like I pretty much
cried for the whole session and then gave myself the
goal of, you know, in the subsequent weeks to make
it through a full session without crying, I think. And
sometimes I would cry, but I wouldn't cry enough to
(53:28):
need a tissue. So it was like a little half win.
Speaker 3 (53:38):
Oh you are brilliant.
Speaker 1 (53:40):
But and the way that I thought of her was
like a physio for my brain. Physios they feel around
and then they find a sore spot and they push
on it. And I felt like that's what she was
doing to my brain. Any little you know, feelings of
whether it was loneliness or not feeling worthy or struggling
(54:02):
or whatever it was. She should find that and then
should push and it should.
Speaker 3 (54:05):
Be like this.
Speaker 1 (54:07):
One hurts right, yeah, yeah, like why why do you
feel like this? And so yeah, a lot of things
and then you know, a lot of techniques. She did
help me with some techniques, and I was very clear.
I was like, I want to know why my brain
is doing this, and I want to know what I
can do when I'm in this state to get out
of it. And so she gave me, you know, a
whole heap of techniques and I was able to employ
(54:32):
them when I was starting to feel really overwhelmed. I
also wanted the physical description of what my brain was
going through because then I felt like it wasn't my
fault so much.
Speaker 2 (54:43):
That's interesting as well. I find with mental health it's
one thing the things that you start to tell yourself,
the shame stories that you start to tell yourself. But
when things tip over is when you start to believe
those things.
Speaker 3 (54:59):
Is the what you were experiencing.
Speaker 1 (55:02):
M and you know other things that we spoke about,
which she was like, we don't have to believe all
our thoughts, and I was like, you know, I'm having
all these thoughts and I was stuck in like this
thought voor takes of like your week, you're worthless, your
your life is good. You don't deserve to be feeling
(55:22):
this bad. Get a grip. You should be stronger, you
should be better, you should be able to get over this,
you know, or all of those that you are, or
then you should the two really bad things to get it.
And she was like, well, actually, you don't have to
believe the things that you think. People think all kinds
of things and that's not actually true. I don't know
(55:43):
about you, but whenever I walk over a bridge, I
think I'm gonna throw my phone off the bridge. I
never do, but before whatever reason, my brain feeds me
that thought every time I walk over a bridge, and
so if I can easily discredit that thought, I need
to be able to differentiate and discredit thoughts when they're
(56:04):
not rational or they're not serving me.
Speaker 2 (56:05):
Well, what have the struggles taught you? And are you
more of a compassionate person, not just to other people
but also to yourself?
Speaker 1 (56:14):
Oh, I have so so much more empathy and understanding
for people who are experiencing times of distress. The thing
that I struggled with the most was that, like, I
have a very good life, right, I get to live
out my childhood dream. I do have good friends, Like
(56:38):
they weren't in Sydney, but I do have good friends.
I have a good family. I make a really steady income,
Like I don't have to stress about money, I don't
have to stress about food. So I kind of thought
that the only time that you can feel bad is
when the external things in your life are really bad.
(56:58):
And so it's given me a much greater compassion for
people who maybe their lives look really perfect on the outside,
but on the inside, who knows what's going on? Right,
And more than anything else, I have complete compassion and
sympathy for people who are going somewhere new or doing
(57:21):
something new and don't have a support system. Because that
loneliness and isolation was the main driving force I think
it was. It was the thing that that tipped me over.
One of the things that I've learned over this process
is that, you know, I would berate myself for things
with the benefit of hindsight. So I'd look at a
(57:42):
situation in the past, but I'd bring the knowledge that
I have today and apply that to the situation in
the past, and I'd say, like, I should have I
should have known back then that I needed to embed
myself and find some friends and like, you know, really
try and do all these things, and I should have
done this, and I should have done that. And it's like, well,
hang on, at the time, you were just doing the
(58:03):
best that you could with the knowledge that you had
at your disposal.
Speaker 2 (58:06):
So taking all of this into consideration, you know, the
days of crying, the moments, the conversations, the bravery, the
desperation to go on medication. You touch the wall, you
look up, you win bronze, and your tears afterwards were
just beautiful. One of my favorite moments of the Olympics,
(58:27):
tell me what's going through your mind in that moment
when you know the rest of the world at this
point didn't know, but you know what you've been through.
Speaker 1 (58:39):
Yeah, it was. It was really strange but really lovely
that that morning before the final, Like, yes, I was nervous,
I one hundred percent was, but it was almost like
I was just accepting of whatever there was to come,
which was a very different sty eight compared to where
(59:02):
I was at in Rio, where I was just terrified
and the only outcome that I could possibly see or
possibly cope with would be a gold medal. Yeah, I
was nervous, but there was this really beautiful sense of
calm as well, which was so lovely because considering like
five weeks earlier, when I was just hot mess, I
(59:22):
was really scared that I would get to get into
the Olympics and feeling like that, and I wasn't you know,
I was myself again, because I'm usually someone who's pretty
in control, and I was. I was calm, and I
was like, oh, this feels good going into these Olympics.
My goal was best execution. Can I execute the race
(59:43):
to the best of my ability in whatever physical or
mental state that I have on the day, can I
swim a race that is the best representation of that?
And that's ultimately all you can ask of yourself, right
because at some time, invariably, someone is going to be
better than you, and they're going to do a better
job than you. And if you believe that the only
(01:00:03):
way that you've done a good job is if you
want a gold medal, at some point you're going to
just be so bitterly disappointed. And I had been in
that point before. I was just I was really clear
on exactly what I needed to do in that race,
and standing behind the blocks, I was really deliberate in
my thought processes, and you know, remained in the moment,
(01:00:24):
and then I touched the wall and I knew with
complete certainty that I had executed that perfect race right,
that I had done everything that I possibly could to
get the best out of myself. But I also knew
I had one because I was right next to Emma McKeon,
who did win, and she was, you know, a good
(01:00:46):
arm's length in front of me. So I had this
this moment where I had peace before I turned around
and looked at the scoreboard, and then once I saw
I want a bronze medal and that at all like
came out and I was just yeah, and I'd won
a bronze medal by six one hundreds of a second
because I was six one hundreds of a second in
(01:01:07):
front of the person who got fourth. That's the blink
of a human eye. If I had allowed myself to
be derailed for even a fraction of a second before
or during the race, I wouldn't have ended up on
the podium. So yeah, and then I was just so happy,
and I honestly, I honestly felt like i'd want gold,
(01:01:30):
like and I know that I did it, but I.
Speaker 3 (01:01:32):
Just I really felt like I didn't.
Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
And then it was beautiful because Emma of caused one
gold and so we got to see the national anthem
on the podium together and I was like, ah, the
thing I just cried for for the whole rest of
the session. I look back, I'm like, oh my god,
I'm so embarrassed by it, but at the same time,
I'm just fully embraced it and led it. I couldn't
(01:01:56):
contain it.
Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
I have full body goosebump when you talk about that.
That must have just been such a fulfilling, tremendous feeling.
After putting yourself through such torment for so long.
Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
Yeah, and I think that, you know, so many people
were like, oh, you know, do you need to atone
for real? Like the narrative was around this redemption story,
and to be honest, I was just like, it's not
a redemption story. I'm just lugging to be here and
no one knows that. So I've done a lot just
(01:02:30):
to get here. Forget the redemption. It's just about getting here.
It's been that much of a struggle.
Speaker 3 (01:02:35):
Tell me about Iron Woman.
Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
Oh, I pick a song before each competition and that
just kind of gets put on repeat, and it has
to be catchy, so it like sticks in your brain
so that when you start to I tend to catastrophize
a lot. And there was just something about those lyrics
that I just just resonated with me so strongly. You
(01:03:02):
are the person you are because of the experiences that
you had, and like, yes, that you know you've been down,
but that's what's made you stronger and all of these things.
I think what resonated with me about that song was
that it didn't shy away from the fact that things
were really hard. But it's in the tough times that
you get your strength, and I was like, I've had
(01:03:24):
some tough types, so I'm really strong.
Speaker 3 (01:03:28):
I've got a second ear ring in my left. Look
how badass I am. It's a pretty cool anthem.
Speaker 1 (01:03:38):
Though, like, ah yeah, it was my mindset coach who
kind of suggested it. She was like, for me, when
I think of you, I just think of I a woman.
And I was like, yes, that is the song that
is going to be it mew.
Speaker 2 (01:03:54):
With all that said and done, what would you tell
the sixteen year old that was first going to to
an Olympics, the little girl that's going to be a
golden girl and the pressure on her shoulders and you've
got a massive smile when you're almost visualizing that little
sixteen year old.
Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
Oh, she was so earnest. She was so earnest, and
she thought she knew so much. She actually didn't know anything.
I think this whole experience has made me see the
(01:04:32):
value of people and human connections and relationships so much
more than I think I had previously. So I would
say that invest in people because they are going to
be what get you through life. It's not going to
be the highs or the accolades or the metal sitting
(01:04:54):
in socks down there. It's interesting because part of me says, oh,
you know, try and have a bit more balanced life.
But when you're trying to achieve something really great, balance
gods out of whack. And that's just the way it is.
But I would say that in investing a bit more
time and effort and energy into the people around you,
and I was just lucky that I had some really
(01:05:16):
great people who allowed themselves to be completely neglected by
me and was still there. But it makes me very
grateful that I had them. If I have one regret
out of it all, it was that I allowed myself
to be so consumed by my ambition that I forgot
how important those people were to me.
Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
And to be kind to yourself and to be kind
to yourself.
Speaker 1 (01:05:42):
Yeah, but I think that one of the beauties is
when you invest in other people when you can't be
kind to yourself, they can help you be kind to yourself.
But when you're kind to other people, you're more likely
to be kind to yourself, And when you're kind yourself,
you're more like to be kind to other people. Like
a kind of it's all circuit so profound.
Speaker 2 (01:06:02):
It's funny because I've said, you know, in the last
couple of years that if you can't find the capacity
to be kind to yourself, do something nice for somebody else,
Because you're right, it does help. If nothing else, it
gets you out of your own head. And the other
thing is I think now the good people life experiences.
If you can tick those two things off, the rest
(01:06:23):
of it doesn't seem to matter so much.
Speaker 1 (01:06:25):
Yeah, and I think that the past eighteen months have
really shone a light on how warped our aspirations have become.
I'm no longer impressed by fancy things or chines, trinkets.
The people who I look to and respect to those
who make meaningful connections with other people.
Speaker 3 (01:06:46):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (01:06:47):
I mean, you have achieved so much, but this has
just been a real joy, getting a greater insight into
the mentality and the resilience and what you've overcome.
Speaker 3 (01:06:57):
And you have a lot of things that you say
that I'm.
Speaker 2 (01:06:58):
Like, yeah, So I really appreciate your time and congratulations
because it was an epic campaign, a couple of gold
and a bronze that I think the whole country was
super proud of you, So well done. I really appreciate
your time today, that's bad time. Thanks for listening to
(01:07:20):
this episode of Ordinarily Speaking. If this chat was triggering
for you, please know there is help out there beyond
blue dot Org, dot au or Lifeline are just a
couple of places you can go if you want to
get in touch with the podcast at Ordinarily Underscore Speaking
on Instagram or at Narrowly Underscore Meadows on Twitter. A
(01:07:41):
new episode will drop next week.
Speaker 1 (01:07:45):
Jesus or a meg.
Speaker 2 (01:08:02):
Because I'm comp between the fire and with send me
that you want a mego
Ordinarily Speaking. We always talk about the shiny side of success,
but don't see what happens on the flip side of
that coin, all the dark, crazy, heartbreaking challenges that go
into making success too soon time.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Hello, and welcome to a new episode of Ordinarily Speaking.
Kate Campbell is a swimming superstar. The four time Olympian
and Tokyo flag bearer has won eight Olympic medals, four gold,
one silver, and three bronze. She's using her success in
the pool as a platform to start a conversation out
of it, a way to help people emerge from the
(00:50):
deep end. In this chat, the effervescent twenty nine year
old speaks from the heart about being diagnosed with depression
and anxiety. Kate opens up on her lowest moments and
her ongoing struggle with a stigma surrounding mental health issues.
If this chat is triggering for you, please know there
is help out there. Beyond blue dot org, dot AU
(01:12):
or Lifeline one three double one one four are just
a couple of places you can go. I hope you
enjoyed the chat.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Myself down again.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
I mean you are okay, Thanks so much for spending
some time with me. I'm really looking forward to this chat.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Ah, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
You've been really open about your mental health in recent months.
Why did you decide to take a private subject public.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
I think a long time before I felt comfortable sharing
it publicly, I kept it very private. Why I decided
to start speaking about it was if I knew that
other people may be struggled with the same things that
I did, maybe it would have been more normalized, and
maybe I would have sought help a little bit earlier,
(02:05):
or maybe I just wouldn't have felt so ashamed and
so isolated and so lonely. And I think that sometimes
we look at quote unquote successful people and I guess that,
you know, if I was going to be lumped in
a category, I could get lumped in that successful category.
And I think that sometimes we think that they are
(02:26):
inherently different from us, that they reach their success without
experiencing the same things that we do, or feeling the
same emotions or going through the same setbacks. And that's
just not the case. And so I wouldn't want anyone
who is struggling with mental health or low mood or
(02:47):
anxiety or anything like that to think I can't go on.
And I can't achieve something. It took a long time
for me to be able to feel comfortable enough to
share publicly. And I I'm now on medication for anxiety
and depression and I still am And it's interesting because
I still feel ashamed when I go to the chemist
(03:09):
and go and fill those scripts and having the pharmacist,
you know, possibly recognize me and then look at the
medication that I'm taking, and I know that I shouldn't
feel ashamed, and logically I'm not ashamed, but that there
are still those feelings of stigma and shame associated with
(03:30):
mental ill health. And I think the more that we
can talk about it and normalize it, the less people
have to be feeling like that.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Ashamed is a big word, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
M Yeah, you want to like curl up and shrivel
up and hide, and you don't want to be seen,
and you're afraid to step into your own skin. You
want to hide within it and look. I think that
women in particular are told to feel ashamed about so
many things. There are so many things that and we
(04:01):
can feel ashamed about if we can start to peel
back the layers and question why we're being conditioned to
feel these things. I think that once you begin to
name something, you begin to have a bit more power
over it. And even though I have these feelings of
shame still associated with my mental health, I can rise
(04:25):
above it, and I can continue to speak about it
while carrying those feelings with me. I'm no longer mastered
by them, so to speak. I can recognize that, you know,
feelings are irrational, but I like to think that most
of the time, I'm a pretty rational creature, so I
can continue to behave an irrational manner even though I
might be feeling a little irrational.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
It's so funny that you mentioned being a woman as
a part of mental health, because I've got a bit
of a theory or something that I've noticed that men
seem to be getting more comfortable talking about mental health
than women are. My theory is that women have always
sort of been told that they're good at talking about
their feelings, but it's almost now been seen as an
(05:10):
empowering thing for men to do it, whereas when women
do it, it's still labeled a little bit of Oh, you're
not tough enough, or you're too emotional, or you're nodding along.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
What do you think.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
About that as a sort of theory I guess of
the way, the direction we're moving in.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
I think it's really interesting because for so long women
have been tainted by this hysteria brush, right, and we've
been told that our feelings are what make us weak,
they are what make us irrational, they're what make us poorer.
(05:47):
Decision makers are not as good at leading people or
making really logical, rational decisions. We're actually finding that's not
the case, right, We're actually finding that emotional intelligence is
a really key factor to making clear, rational decisions. It's
a really important factor in making connections, which inherently makes
(06:09):
you a better leader because you can take people along
the journey with you. But I think that when women
are talking about mental health, it's just like, ah, that's
just hysterical. You know, they're just having a bit of
a cry, or it's a bit of PMS, right, or
maybe they're going through menopause or perimenopause, and we just
(06:31):
expect women to be more emotional and more teary. And
I think that there's a real difference between being emotional
and then you know that mental ill health, and sometimes
it's a fine line and you can kind of dip
into one or dip into the other. But I don't
(06:53):
want to take away anything from the progress that has
been made in men talking about them mental health and
seeking support and beginning to share their feelings and shedding
that kind of toxic masculinity banner that they've been forced
to labor under for a really long time. And I
think that that's a really good thing. But I think
(07:15):
that we also need to recognize that when women say
that I'm really not feeling well, they're not being hysterical,
they're not on PMS. They maybe have shared this many
times with their friends, but maybe they still need to
go and seek help.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
You are so eloquent, this is going to be a
lot of You've had a heape of success across your career,
but with that comes a lot of public pressure, a
lot of I would imagine your own expectations are so
high on yourself just hearing you talk over the years.
How do you handle the fear of failure because that
(07:56):
particularly for athletes, but all humans that fear of failure,
and you are somebody that demands excellence of yourself, how
does that hit you across life?
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Yeah, it's really interesting because I think that fear of
failure is wrapped up in that feeling of shame that
we were talking about earlier, and that feeling of social ostracism,
which you know, we can get into the science of
human evolution and how humans fear that worse than death.
That's why you feel really nervous when you're speaking in
(08:28):
front of people, because you just want people to like you, right,
because being a part of a tribe is so entrenched
and part of our DNA. It's how we were wired
to survive. It's paramount to death. If in the clan
times you were cast out from your clan, you would
be in the wilderness. You'd freeze to death, or you
get eaten by a wild animal. So there is this
(08:54):
real psychological, deep seated fear of failure and the so
ostracism that comes with it. And I think that for
a long time, I'm a big believer that if you
don't accept something, then you can't learn from it. And
for a long time I was unable to accept that
(09:17):
I had this fear of failure, and so I was
hiding from it and I was refusing to acknowledge that
it was there. And I have incredibly high standards for myself.
I'm not afraid of that, but I think that sometimes
we measure success too narrowly, and it is all outcome
(09:40):
focused and outcome based. My wind lose margins, so my
success failure margins one hundreds and tenths of a second
once every four years, or if you're lucky, once every
five years. And I just think that if we're measuring
our success off of that which can be so closely
tied to our personal identity, then we are setting ourselves
(10:04):
up for this fear of failure. Whereas my goal was
and always has been to win an individual Olympic gold medal,
and I have been to four Olympics and I have
not achieved that, and that begs the question, if that
is my goal and I have not achieved it, am
I successful?
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Right?
Speaker 1 (10:23):
And that's a really interesting question, because if we look
at my career over many many years subjectively objectively, I
am successful.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Bloody is successful?
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Right.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
But if we have such narrow definitions of success, then
we really set ourselves up for failure. And so I've
had to learn to change my definition of success and
have it as a more internal model that I work
off and an internal scorecard. If I can do that,
(10:56):
then even though the outcome may not be exactly what
I wanted, and this big goal that I've put out
there and I have been chasing my whole life, I
can still walk away and feel like I've had some
measure of success.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
It's funny you mentioned that I had aim In Sullivan
on in Season one of Ordinarily Speaking, and obviously he
was the hot you know, favorite to be the world
record holder to win, and he said he wants to
get to a point where he can proudly tell his
kids I won silver, and not that I didn't win
gold or that I lost gold. Can you empathize with
(11:35):
that sentiment?
Speaker 1 (11:37):
I can. And it's interesting because if we take my
results from the most recent Olympics in Tokyo, I won
two gold medals as part of relay teams and one
individual bronze medal. And it's interesting when I feel like
I'm a Grade fiver and go to show and tell
so often because I just take my medals and show
(11:58):
them around to people, get them out.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Where are they actually are? We're in your hotel room
at the moment, and there is a metal wrapped up
in I hope they're they're clean socks clean socks.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Don't worry, they're clean. So oh that's brilliant. Oh so,
But when when I go and I show people, they
instantly gravitate towards those gold medals and they grab them,
and those are the ones that they want photos with.
But when I look at them, and I'm incredibly proud
(12:36):
of all of them, but when I look at them,
there the bronze metal has like extra special meaning to me.
But externally, that's that's not seen and that's not validated.
I would say, though, that we are so quick to
own our successes, but we are less quick to own
our failures. And something that I am really passionate about
(12:59):
is is owning both of those and owning both of
those publicly. So when I speak, I usually mentioned what
happened in Rio, where I was like Aiman, I was
the gold medal favorite, the world record holder going in,
except that instead of winning a silver medal, I won
no medals in that race. And the more I talk
(13:22):
about it, the less sting it has. But it also
helps me own that part of my story and that
part of my journey, and the more I've spoken about it,
the less ashamed I feel about it, because it's out
there and people can see it and they can judge
me for all the successes, but then all the failures
(13:44):
as well. It's really interesting whenever I go and speak,
the MC will introduce me and they'll just be like
this long highlight list, and I'm like, well, that's not
actually a true representation of what I have done and
who I am. Underneath every one of those successes, there's
like three or four really big failures. If I want
(14:06):
to be seen and accepted for who I am, then
I think that I need to display those as well,
and not just the highlights.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
And I guess that's what this podcast is about. It's
about celebrating the resilience that it took to have those
successful moments. I do want to also state, though I
know for you and not getting a medal in a
final is a failure for the rest of the world,
being one of the eight fastest swimmers in that field
is still bloody successful. But just going back to when
(14:36):
I first it was really interesting because obviously this is
a podcast, so nobody can see, but when I first
asked you about fear of failure, you put your hand
on your chest and almost leaned forward as though you
were constricted by just the conversation of it. And you
mentioned there how you are so hard on yourself, and
it's brilliant for a journalist to hear the raw honesty.
(14:58):
But how hard is that to to live within your
own head, I guess, and those elite expectations.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
So it's funny because I think that sometimes our greatest
weaknesses and our greatest strengths are two sides of the
same coin.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Agree totally.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
So I have incredibly high standards for myself, and I
set big goals and I challenge myself. I am relentless,
and that is a really good thing. It's driven me
to get to where I am. But if I go
too far and I tip over into constantly relentlessly pushing
(15:39):
myself and not acknowledging the little winds along the way,
or not being kind to myself when things don't go
your way, whether it's my fault, whether it's luck. Like
I don't think that we acknowledge the role that luck
plays in life enough because sometimes you can do absolutely
everything right and then just luck doesn't go your way right,
(16:02):
and we don't acknowledge that enough. But when that strength,
that that motivation, those high standards, those expectations. When they
flip and they go too far, then they begin to
beat me down instead of pull me up. And so
it's about finding that right balance between pushing myself and
challenging myself, but then also knowing when it's okay to
(16:26):
be kind to yourself and to let those standards lax.
And for so long, you know, I think that self
care is having like a real moment and like taking
time for you and all of that. And I used
to I used to hate that, like and you know,
do something for fun, Like I don't have time for fun.
I need to go and do things. But I now
see the real benefit in that. And yes, there's there's
(16:49):
a time to knuckle down, and there's a time to
work when you don't feel like it and it's not fun.
But it is also really important to find joy in
life because that is going to keep you motivated for
a long time. So it's about figuring out what makes
you tick, what makes you work, but then being really
careful that that strength that you have doesn't become this
(17:13):
weapon that you beat yourself with and drive yourself into
the ground.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
It's so true you mentioned rio. Take me back to
that moment and how you felt in that moment.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Yeah, it's really interesting. I remember feeling fine until sort
of twenty four hours or so, but before the final
and I received a message from a friend and I
was kind of like intermittently checking my social media, not
(17:49):
Instagram or not Facebook, but some of my more private channels.
And I got a message from a friend saying, oh,
I've hired out whole boardroom so that everyone in my
office can watch you race. And I just I suddenly
was like, Oh my god, they're going to be expecting
me to win. That's why they hied the boardroom. That's why.
(18:13):
And I was like, and if I don't win, then
I'm going to look like an absolute fool. They're going
to look like a fool. And it just I was
just like, and I bet there's so many other people
who are going to be watching this, and if I
don't win, I'm going to be just the absolute laughing stock.
And it kind of flicked a bit of a switch,
(18:35):
and I was just stuck in this fight or flight mode.
You know, I've done all of the sports psychology and
the breathing and meditation and everything like that, but I
couldn't flick this switch off. Once it was on. From
that point on, when anyone spoke to me, I was
just like, they expect me to win, they want me
(18:57):
to win. I have to win. Tension shifted from what
I need to do if you want to be you know,
we talk a lot about being process driven instead of
outcome driven, and it just everything became outcome driven because
I suddenly saw this big danger of if I didn't win,
there was gonna be some really bad consequences. And I
(19:19):
was gonna, you know, be the absolute fol I'm a
pretty gullible person, so and I'm used to being laughed
at a lot, but I really don't like it, Like
I can't take it in a lot. And I was like,
everyone's gonna be laughing at me, and so behind the block,
I've never felt in such a heightened state. It was
like there were so many thoughts racing around my head
(19:40):
that I couldn't even grab hold of one of them.
It was felt like there was the equivalent of TV
static being played in my head when you want to
be cool and calm or have a focus point for
what you need to do in your race. But all
the time I was like, I'm you know, I'm doing
my breathing exercises. I'm doing everything that I can, like,
(20:01):
it's all going to be fine. You're telling yourself that
it's going to be fine when your subconscious brain is
like danger, danger, danger, And you know everyone has has
a small fear of false starting. I've never false started
in my life. I've never flinched on the block. It's
never been an issue for me. And yet when I
went down, I flinched on the block, which can end
(20:25):
up in disqualification or it cannot. It goes either way.
You know, a flinch on the block before the gun goes,
you're pretty lucky to get away with it. And I
was just like, oh my god, like I've never been
in that state before. It was really interesting because when
I turned and put my feet on the wall at
the fifty meter mark, I knew that this was going
(20:50):
to be a long way home. Like I just knew
that it would take everyone else in the race to
have as shocking a time as I was having for
me to get this done. And fifty meters can be
a really long way. And my brain was screaming at
me to go. But once you've opened the floodgates and
(21:10):
you flooded your body. With lyctoc acid, your muscles begin
to shut down, and it doesn't matter what your brain
is telling you, which is something that I really dislike.
In sport, we're told, oh, it's the last ten meters,
it's whoever's mentally tough enough to get there, and I
just think that's complete bullshit, because everyone who's in that
race is so mentally tough, and sometimes your body just
(21:31):
actually shuts down and it doesn't matter what your mind
screaming at you. So my mind was screaming at me,
but my body was like, oh, you've really cooked us,
You've really done a number on this. And I touched
the wall, and to be honest, like I could see
the girls next to me who were ahead of me,
who ended up winning, and so I knew I hadn't won.
(21:55):
I kind of vaguely looked at the board and saw
that I hadn't even got a medal, and then it
was just this big whirlwind blur of like, oh, my god,
you know that everything that you were terrified of before
the race, well that's your reality now. It was like
I was just in a daze, and I got out
(22:15):
and I did the post race interview, and then I
had the really long, lonely walk back down to the
Australian team area. And it's really interesting when people fail
or they don't perform well, other people don't know what
to do either, right, And so I felt really shunned
(22:37):
by some people because they were processing their discomfort with
what they just watched and maybe they were empathizing, right,
you know, and they don't know what to do. I
warmed down, but then there was this really beautiful moment.
By this stage, it was two or three am, and
(22:58):
I went back to the village and there were a
group of athletes who had finished competing and they were
waiting for me in the dining hall so that I
would have someone to eat dinner with. And it's funny,
it's like those moments that I remember really clearly, and
everything else around it, it's all just this big haze
because I didn't have time to fully process it or
(23:20):
understand it, because I still had races to do and
I had to refocus and I had to go again.
But it's those moments of kindness that really shone through
and helped me be like, oh, it's going to be okay.
And yeah, it was horrible and it was heartbreaking, and
after I finished racing, I think everyone went out on
(23:43):
that final night and I just went back to my
room in the village and just cried, like just sobbed
and couldn't didn't want to face anyone, and didn't want
to do anything. But the little bits of kindness that
were shown to me immediately after the race allowed me
to continue to do what I needed to do for
(24:04):
the rest of the week.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
You tell that whole story like you're staring back, Like
you know when you're in the pool, You're back in
the pool. When you're walking out, it's like you are
back doing that walk everything. It's almost like you're visualizing
being back in that moment.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Is that Yeah, Well, when we have really heightened emotions,
it brands that memory into our brains, and ultimately that's
why we have emotions, right, so that we can remember things.
So it's like a big warning sign like hey, this
was really dangerous and it was really bad and you
felt really awful. We're going to remember everything about it,
(24:41):
Like I can see it in crystically a deity detail,
and I've spoken about it enough that I don't have
to go back down into the feelings of the emotions.
I can kind of detach from them a little bit.
But for a long time, every time I spoke about it,
I could feel those emotions like welling up and put
pushing inside of me and leaking out my eyes. I
(25:03):
would just I'd start talking about it and it'd just
start crying. People be like, Oh, I'm so sad, I'm
so sorry. I don't mean to do it. I'm like,
it's okay, Like it'll stop. I'm actually I'm not that upset,
but for whatever reason, there's just that's just this well
of grief associated with it, and eventually it'll stop. And
sometimes if I'm really tired and you know, not in
(25:24):
a good frame of mind, it'll bubble up again. But
I think that for better or for worse, these moments
of high impact are really branded into our psyche. But
I think that I have consciously turned and looked at
and faced it, as opposed to turning away from it,
which is probably maybe the easier thing to do. But
(25:47):
then it spills out in other ways.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
What was the shame story that you told yourself after
that race?
Speaker 1 (25:53):
I have always thought of myself as someone who is
very reliable. When I stand up to deliver something, I
can usually do it, even in stressful situations or when
I'm nervous. Nerves actually sometimes bring out the best in me.
(26:16):
And so the story that I tell myself is like,
you can do it, and you are capable, and you're reliable.
People love winners, right.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
We do.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
We love winners, and I am no longer reliable. I
am no longer a winner, and therefore I am unlovable
and my only worth is what I can produce in
the pool, and I haven't delivered in that. So therefore,
why do people want to know me? And it was
(26:53):
really interesting because I was feeling like that, but I
found out that I was in the minority. Yes, there
were some horrible people and there were some horrible things
said about me, but the majority of people were actually
really kind about it. One of the best and worst
things that I did after the games was usually after
(27:15):
an Olympic Games, we get to go around and do
sort of ticke take parades in all the capital cities
around Australia. And I did that and I met so
many of the general public and every time, not every time,
but most of the time when I met people, they
were like, oh, you know, we're so proud of you.
Did such a good job, and that was so contrary
(27:36):
to how I was feeling about it. Felt like whenever
anyone gave me a compliment about Rio, felt like someone
was dragging their nails down a chalkboard. But the more
that I heard that from people, the more I realized
that the story that I was telling myself wasn't actually true.
And so while it was uncomfortable for me to hear that,
it was also really good. I actually wanted people to
(27:59):
tell me how awful I was and how disappointed they
were in me, and all of those things.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Because that sat more comfortably in that time.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Oh yeah, and it was in line with the story
that I was telling myself. And we like to be right.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
If I'm going to be a failure, I'm at least
going to be a correct failure.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
I'm at least going to be.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Correct in that failure.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Now you know why I don't have I didn't have
many friends at school that I like to be right
all the time. And also, why are you guys having fun?
We all need to be super serious and we need
to focus on what our career is and why are
you going out? And don't pull on all nighter. You
need to be more prepared. Yeah, Kate, it was not
(28:45):
very popular at school.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
But when to an Olympics at what sixteen was it?
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (28:51):
That didn't make up for all the socials episodes. Oh,
that's actually very funny.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
How long did it You've grown beautifully through that experience.
How long did it take you though, to get back
on track in your mind?
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Oh, I'm not sure that I have an exact time.
It just kind of gradually snuck up on me. So
I made the decision in twenty seventeen that I wouldn't
be competing at the World Championships, so I wouldn't be
competing for Australia at a major or our major international competition,
(29:39):
which was the first time I think since I was
nine years old that I decided that I didn't want
to push myself to be the best in the world
and to represent Australia. Once I made that decision in
probably sort of late twenty sixteen, I kind of was
able to take a breath. I still trained and and
(30:00):
I was able to go and travel and compete at
competitions all around the world, but I wasn't fit, I
wasn't strong. As long as I executed my best race
I was like, yeah, I'm happy with that. I wouldn't
make it on the podium, but there was something just
really joyous about discovering satisfaction in achieving my best performance
again without that burden of expectation. And I found that
(30:23):
joy and that love for the sport again and I
think that was kind of the turning point. So it
was just it was a step away, a conscious step away,
but still leaning in recognizing that, yeah, I want to
give this like another go, see what I can do.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Fell back in love with the sport.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Yeah. Yeah. I termed it as like we were just
on a break.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
We were on a break, Rachel.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Except did it take so many seasons? Was to get
back together?
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Oh there's a friend's episode over everything you're listening to
ordinarily speaking with Kate Campbell. So you get through Rio?
When did your mental health? When did you feel like
something isn't quite right?
Speaker 1 (31:15):
I really struggled after Rio, and I went to my
GP because I was really struggling, and I said, do
I need to be on antidepressants? Like I'm feeling really weird?
And she was like, you know, Okay, you've been through
something really traumatic. I can see that you've got a
good support system around you. You are really aware of this.
(31:38):
I don't think you need to be on antidepressants now.
It's actually completely normal for you to be grieving and
feeling like this. And I was like, oh, okay, cool,
And I'm really glad that at that point she didn't
put me on antidepressants because I don't think it was
the correct thing. And I have, you know, a wonderful
relationship with that GP. I really trusted her judgment. But
(31:59):
she said, keep coming back and we're just going to
keep checking in and making sure that you are progressing.
But I don't want to put you on something that
there are risks and side effects for everything, but that
also might not allow you to fully process this experience.
And then in twenty.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Sorry, just what were the things that you were feeling
at the time that made you have that conversation? Oh?
Speaker 1 (32:27):
I was just I was crying a lot, and I
was wanting to be like really reckless or I was
looking back with this really narrow, bitter lens on this
life that I had led, Like you know, I said, oh,
you know, my life is so beige. I'd been to
three Olympics, Like, that's not a beige life. But I
(32:50):
think that i'd just been I was just so embittered
by all of the sacrifices I'd had to make to
achieve this goal of an Olympic gold medal, and then
it hadn't paid off, and I was just like, well,
what was that for? Why did I put myself through
through that? So then I tried to go off the rails,
but I'm way too sensible to go off the rails, honestly.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
Why The most reckless thing I did was kind of.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Secondy of piercing in my left ear.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
Every time you look at your left ear and do you.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Just go, yeah, that's a reckless Kate nailed it.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Yeah. Yeah. For a long time it was like the
only earring I would wear. I'd be like, yeah, I'm
a bad bitch, like too.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Nerdy to be reckless. I just couldn't channel you inner,
just grable it.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
No, just really didn't enjoy it. And so then I
was like feeling like I was trying all these things
and nothing was making me feel any better. She was
just like, it's completely normal. You're you're going through a
process of grieving and rediscovery. I'm so thankful I don't
go and get a tattoo or something like because that
(34:09):
that could have been a possibility. So and and and
she was right. I took a step back from things
and lean into what life could look like outside of
the pool and got my second ear piercing. And then.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Is that part of your pre race ritual now to
look at that second year piece?
Speaker 1 (34:35):
I actually I actually play with it so much it's
become like a little thing. I'm just like, it's okay, Kate,
You're You're a bad bitch, your secondy and piercing.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Oh god.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
So yeah, I'm really really glad that that she was
cognizant enough just to recognize that this was a completely
normal react and behavior for me, because I'd never been
untethered from the yoke of swimming before I said the
yoke of swimming. But I loved it, really was. It
was a labor of love completely until it wasn't. And
(35:14):
then twenty eighteen was fantastic year for me. Twenty nineteen
was pretty good, but I went through a bad breakup
and I moved to Sydney and was incredibly isolated down there,
struggling to find friends. I also traveled for sort of
five months of that year, some of it by myself,
quite a lot of it by myself. And then I
(35:38):
was kind of hitting my groove and hitting the stride,
hitting my strides and going from strength to strength and
really feeling like this Olympics twenty twenty, it was going
to be my Olympics, right, This was it. Physically, I
was so good in training. I was just doing things
that were just stupid, like I'd never died, I'd never
(35:58):
be I've been able to perform as well as I was.
I was recovering from sets my times. We were so
fast and so consistent with racing really well. I was
strong and I've I've battled kind of weights, were lifting,
so chin ups are like my bread and butter. So
I was, you know, doing chin ups with forty two
(36:21):
forty five kilos around my waist and that's crazy. I'm
can't even do it chin up. I've been doing that
for a long time. So my injuries, you know, I've
been quite injured over the past couple of years, they
were all under control, and it was just like, yes,
I am finally hitting some momentum and moving forward. And
(36:42):
then the twenty third of March twenty twenty, the Olympics
are not happening, and it was just like, oh my god.
And then remember when the whole of Australia went into lockdown,
Like that seems like another lifetime ago. We lost all
access to all training facilities, no access to coach. I
(37:05):
ended up coming back to Brisbane because I'd been living
in Sydney at the time. I didn't want to go
through lockdown in a one bedroom apartment in a suburb
where I had no friends. Came back to Brisbane and
stayed at a house with a couple of my really
good mates, which was wonderful. Discovered that I'm not very
good at exercising by myself, shock horror. So I just
(37:26):
bullied all my housemates into exercising with.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
Me once again. Being friends with Kate sounds like.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Your I was running forty five sessions in the backyard
pilates at lunchtime and they were like locked out, in
the best shape of their life. So they're welcome, but
they were also Once they saw me get in my
car and drive down to Sydney, We're like, oh, thank god, ay.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Got you a bad bitch.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
So I had to leave this environment that where I
was like really well connected and go back down to Sydney.
I was incredibly isolated, and I think that it has
made me realize the impact that loneliness has on people,
and it's a real physical thing. You feel like it's
(38:19):
your fault and that you are unlovable, not that you know.
You live in a city with lots of people who
have incredibly busy lives, and I were already well connected
and plugged into a community. And it's not that they
don't like you, it's just that they don't have the
capacity to think of you. So I'd gone back to
Sydney in May of that year, and then it was
(38:42):
about July. I had no energy. I wasn't recovering. My
injuries were really bad. I was feeling really emotional all
the time and really sad all the time. There wasn't
any joy and sometimes I could go. I would speak
to members of my squad on a Saturday morning and
(39:05):
then not speak to another single person until I went
to training on Monday morning. And there are only so
many beaches that you can explore and sunsets that you
can watch or sunrises that you can photograph that will
try and fill that void. But eventually it kind of
(39:26):
opens up and becomes this chasm that I then just
fell into. So I I had this moment where I
just had a complete meltdown over something that was so irrational.
I was trying to make a cup of hot chocolate
before I went to bed, and the power kept on
tripping and so I couldn't heat up the milk, and
(39:46):
then I just I just cried, and not just like
a little tears, like full sobbing. And I was like, oh,
this isn't normal. There's something wrong. I think I need
to go get some help. So then i'd, like, you know,
(40:06):
I got up early the next morning before training and
googled frantically around for a psychologist because all I needed
to do was get some strategies.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
To help me stop crying. Needed a process.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
I just needed a process. And I remember like going
to training the next morning and being like, oh my god,
I have just booked in to see a psychologist. I
can't let anyone here know because that is admitting weakness.
And like I was so in such an emotionally heightened
place that I had to keep leaving the gym and
(40:41):
going like do breathing exercises in the bathroom to like
try and calm down so that I wouldn't just burst
into tears then, but yeah, it was. It was that
process of like complete meltdown, which I now am able
to pick up a lot earlier, saw a psychology just
for a while, and things got a bit better, and
(41:04):
I felt like I was feeling pretty good. But then
by the time Olympic trials rolled around in June of
twenty twenty one, I realized that things weren't as good
as I thought that they were. So I, like I said,
(41:27):
I'm used to competing in high pressure situations.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
And.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Competition is always Yes, it's nerve racking, but it's kind
of like why I swim, because no one trains to
train like my goodness, so me training it's so boring,
Like whoever says that it's not is a freak, because
sometimes it really is, like you're staring at the black
line for a really long time. You can't talk to people.
It's really hard work. I am only discovering this because
(41:57):
I'm on a bit of a break now, and I
realized that it's not normal to wake up with your
whole body hurting and headache. That it's completely normal to
be able to feel like you can manage the day
without having to like go and lie down for half
an hour finally enough. Training for an Olympic Games is
really hard work. Who would have thought, So you kind
of put yourself through that so that you can compete
(42:19):
and so that you can stand up and see what
you can do. And I had been working with a
psychologist after I moved I moved back to Brisbane at
the beginning of twenty twenty one because my coach moved
moved back to Brisbane. So we'd been training in Brisbane.
So I'd found a new psychologist and I was working
with her. I was working with a sport mindset coach.
I attended like meditation seminars, all of these things, all
(42:43):
of the right things, you know, did all the things
I did, all the things I had equipped myself so well.
And the closer we got to Olympic trials, the more
there was just like this impending sense of doom. So
I'm from Queensland, and the way that I describe it,
(43:06):
it was like before a big storm, you know, when
you can feel that pressure and there's like this mugginess
and this stickiness, and you can feel like something's gonna
happen and it's looming and it's coming, and the closer
I got to the trials sort of, the more intense
(43:26):
that that pressured state became. And nothing I did helped, right, Like,
none of my mind all the mindfulness training, all the
mindset stuff that I was going through, none of it
helped this this feeling that this overwhelming sense of dread
that there was this thing looming.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
It felt physical, It felt physical.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yeah, you know, I couldn't couldn't breathe properly. I started
to get really emotional again, and I just remember, you know,
calling my partner, and my friends are just being like
if I don't make it, like will you still love me?
Like I'm so afraid. I I just need to get
through this if it all goes bad, like will you
(44:11):
still be okay? Like We're still gonna be okay, And
they're all like yes, Kate, of course, of course. Anyway,
I managed to get through Olympic Trials and I qualified
for the one hundred freestyle and the fifty freestyle. But
after the race, there was no sense of joy. There
wasn't even a sense of relief. There was just like,
(44:33):
oh my god, I have to do this again in
five weeks time, I have to do this again. And
I have to feel like this again. And I was
kind of like laughing to disguise how awful I was feeling.
To people. They were like, oh, congratulations, Kate, and I
was like, ha ha ha, I'm never doing this again.
(44:53):
And in my head I was like, this is it.
I'm making it through this Olympics and then I'm retiring
and then I'm out. I'm done. Nothing is worth like this.
Two days after after that, I was lying awake at
night just contemplating that the next five weeks of my life,
and I was just like, hang on, this isn't normal, right,
This isn't you. You love racing and you love competing,
(45:16):
and yeah, you've always been a nervous racer. I always
get very nervous, but that's completely normal. But this is
something different. I think that you might need some help.
You've done everything right. It was at eleven o'clock when
I clicked on my phone and I was like, all right,
I need a book in and see my GP. And
(45:37):
I went in and I was like, I need some help.
And this was four weeks before the Olympic Games.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
How did you feel when you said those words, I
need some help?
Speaker 1 (45:52):
I at this point, I was kind of numb, but
because I was just like, well, I'm feeling so bad,
asking for help or asking to go I meet it
can't hurt, you know. I was very clear that I'm
a bit of a control freak. Surprise, surprise, and I
didn't I didn't want to lose myself. I wanted to
find myself again because I was so lost. You know.
(46:14):
My GP was so wonderful and she was like, Yep,
we definitely have things that we can help you with.
You have extreme high, extremely high levels of anxiety and
probably low levels of depression. The drugs take two to
three weeks to kick in, and I can say that
about sort of a week and a half, two weeks
(46:34):
out from when I was you to start racing, I
gradually began to notice that I was feeling a lot better.
And I now look back and I look at the
months that I spent, you know, working with the psychologists
(46:54):
and the mindset coach and the meditation and all of that,
and I think that all of that is useful, and
I'm really glad that I have those tools. But if
I had, if there had been a normal conversation about
seeking medical help around anxiety and depression, I would have
(47:14):
gotten help a lot earlier, and I probably would have
been able to have been in a much better mental
state for a lot longer and physical state. I've noticed
it since I've allowed my central nervous system to have
a bit of a break from that fight or flight state,
that my injuries have been a lot better as well.
The super acute random flare ups that I was getting
(47:39):
routinely in the lead into the Olympics have calmed down
a lot, not completely, but a lot. So I was
just like, well, if I didn't know how beneficial and
how common it is, you know, once I started, I
spoke to a few really close friends and they were like, oh, yeah,
(48:00):
I'm on that, or I've taken that before, or yeah,
at a really stressful point in my life I did that.
I was like, why didn't you tell me? If I'd
known that, I might have done something earlier. So if
me sharing it and normalizing it means someone who is
feeling really horrible is doing all the right things and
(48:21):
is unsure of, you know, what the future looks like
or what else they can do if it makes them go, oh, actually,
maybe I should go and speak to my GP, and
maybe that'll be really helpful for me. Then I think
that that's a really good thing.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
As an athlete. Were you a bit nervous or terrified
or going on a medicaid? You know, because everything that
you put into your body is is amplified or focused on.
I guess was that a cause of concern? Oh?
Speaker 1 (48:51):
Yeah, it was a massive cause of concern. And like
I said that, there are side effects with every medication,
but at that point, I was just like, it's wor
taking the risk. I don't want to be feeling this
awful when I'm supposed to be competing at an Olympic Games.
I've already felt awful in the wake of an Olympic
Games before. I don't want to go into one feeling
(49:12):
this bad.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
It's a brave call and a clearly a brilliant call.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
It's a desperate call, right, Okay, I wouldn't. I wouldn't
say that it is brave because it was desperation that
drove me to that point.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
Do you feel differently about medication now and even the
word medication? Do you feel differently about it now to
what you did what twelve months ago?
Speaker 1 (49:36):
I rationally feel very different about it because it's allowed
me to find myself again. I am able to cope
with situations and find joy and meaning and connection and
being able to completely relax into who I actually am
(49:57):
instead of constantly having to fight to find that person
through the haze of anxiety and depression. Like I said,
I still struggle every time I go and have to
fill my script in at the pharmacy because there is
such a stigma around it. But it's really interesting because medication, right,
everyone takes a lot of medication without even thinking about it.
(50:20):
I couldn't tell you how many anti inflammatory pills I've
taken in my life and I haven't even thought about it.
And I've been on like prescription anti inflammatory medication. I've
never even blinked. And yet somehow with a medication that
affects your mental state, there's no sense of what you
(50:43):
have an injury and this is to help the inflammation
around that, to help it bring you back down to
a normal level. It's like no, no, no, you're weak.
You should be able to figure this out. You need
to breathe or do mindfulness or speak to a psychologist
and sort out your issues, as opposed to like, actually,
hang on, here's a point of inflammation. There's an injury here,
(51:03):
whether it's either from a really acute event or repetitive strain.
And I think that mine was a repetitive strain injury
to my brain. But there's not a discussion of like,
hang on, there's this point of injury here, let's get
it back down so it's under control and so that
you can begin to function the gain. I don't know.
(51:24):
Maybe that's the way I rationalize it to myself.
Speaker 2 (51:26):
I think it's a great way of looking at it,
because it's not like you ever stand in the mirror
and look at your hamstrings or your calves and go
why you're so weak?
Speaker 3 (51:33):
No?
Speaker 1 (51:33):
No, And often you get to that point because you've
pushed so hard, right, and you know, for better or
for worse, you've pushed past the levels that your body
can cope with, which takes a lot of strength to
do that, right, to push yourself to a point of injury,
(51:53):
it's not something that anyone wants. But if you get
a physical injury, it's like, oh, well, you must have
pushed too hard. But if you are suffering with mental
ill health, it's, oh, well, you're a bit weak for
feeling like this.
Speaker 2 (52:05):
What kind of stuff? And you don't have to share.
What kind of stuff are you talking about with your psychologists?
Speaker 1 (52:10):
Oh, a bit of everything. And it was when I
went to that first session, I was very adamant that
there was absolutely nothing wrong with me. I just needed
some techniques to stop myself crying, right, I need some tools.
I need some tools because I'm a completely normal, rational
person and I am crying irrationally, so therefore, just give
(52:31):
me some tools to calm this down. And I went
in there and I was like, I'm going to be
so cool and so calm. Just you wait, I'm going
to be like the best patient that she's ever seen.
Speaker 3 (52:42):
You're even competitive with them?
Speaker 1 (52:45):
Oh my god, I know, I'm honestly insufferable. She gave
me like this survey to fill out, and I was like, yeap,
I really nailed that. She definitely doesn't think I am
a complete nut job, because only nut jobs come and
see psychologists. And she looked at it and she was like,
so I'm seeing extreme levels of anxiety and high levels
(53:08):
of depression. And I was just like I pretty much
cried for the whole session and then gave myself the
goal of, you know, in the subsequent weeks to make
it through a full session without crying, I think. And
sometimes I would cry, but I wouldn't cry enough to
(53:28):
need a tissue. So it was like a little half win.
Speaker 3 (53:38):
Oh you are brilliant.
Speaker 1 (53:40):
But and the way that I thought of her was
like a physio for my brain. Physios they feel around
and then they find a sore spot and they push
on it. And I felt like that's what she was
doing to my brain. Any little you know, feelings of
whether it was loneliness or not feeling worthy or struggling
(54:02):
or whatever it was. She should find that and then
should push and it should.
Speaker 3 (54:05):
Be like this.
Speaker 1 (54:07):
One hurts right, yeah, yeah, like why why do you
feel like this? And so yeah, a lot of things
and then you know, a lot of techniques. She did
help me with some techniques, and I was very clear.
I was like, I want to know why my brain
is doing this, and I want to know what I
can do when I'm in this state to get out
of it. And so she gave me, you know, a
whole heap of techniques and I was able to employ
(54:32):
them when I was starting to feel really overwhelmed. I
also wanted the physical description of what my brain was
going through because then I felt like it wasn't my
fault so much.
Speaker 2 (54:43):
That's interesting as well. I find with mental health it's
one thing the things that you start to tell yourself,
the shame stories that you start to tell yourself. But
when things tip over is when you start to believe
those things.
Speaker 3 (54:59):
Is the what you were experiencing.
Speaker 1 (55:02):
M and you know other things that we spoke about,
which she was like, we don't have to believe all
our thoughts, and I was like, you know, I'm having
all these thoughts and I was stuck in like this
thought voor takes of like your week, you're worthless, your
your life is good. You don't deserve to be feeling
(55:22):
this bad. Get a grip. You should be stronger, you
should be better, you should be able to get over this,
you know, or all of those that you are, or
then you should the two really bad things to get it.
And she was like, well, actually, you don't have to
believe the things that you think. People think all kinds
of things and that's not actually true. I don't know
(55:43):
about you, but whenever I walk over a bridge, I
think I'm gonna throw my phone off the bridge. I
never do, but before whatever reason, my brain feeds me
that thought every time I walk over a bridge, and
so if I can easily discredit that thought, I need
to be able to differentiate and discredit thoughts when they're
(56:04):
not rational or they're not serving me.
Speaker 2 (56:05):
Well, what have the struggles taught you? And are you
more of a compassionate person, not just to other people
but also to yourself?
Speaker 1 (56:14):
Oh, I have so so much more empathy and understanding
for people who are experiencing times of distress. The thing
that I struggled with the most was that, like, I
have a very good life, right, I get to live
out my childhood dream. I do have good friends, Like
(56:38):
they weren't in Sydney, but I do have good friends.
I have a good family. I make a really steady income,
Like I don't have to stress about money, I don't
have to stress about food. So I kind of thought
that the only time that you can feel bad is
when the external things in your life are really bad.
(56:58):
And so it's given me a much greater compassion for
people who maybe their lives look really perfect on the outside,
but on the inside, who knows what's going on? Right,
And more than anything else, I have complete compassion and
sympathy for people who are going somewhere new or doing
(57:21):
something new and don't have a support system. Because that
loneliness and isolation was the main driving force I think
it was. It was the thing that that tipped me over.
One of the things that I've learned over this process
is that, you know, I would berate myself for things
with the benefit of hindsight. So I'd look at a
(57:42):
situation in the past, but I'd bring the knowledge that
I have today and apply that to the situation in
the past, and I'd say, like, I should have I
should have known back then that I needed to embed
myself and find some friends and like, you know, really
try and do all these things, and I should have
done this, and I should have done that. And it's like, well,
hang on, at the time, you were just doing the
(58:03):
best that you could with the knowledge that you had
at your disposal.
Speaker 2 (58:06):
So taking all of this into consideration, you know, the
days of crying, the moments, the conversations, the bravery, the
desperation to go on medication. You touch the wall, you
look up, you win bronze, and your tears afterwards were
just beautiful. One of my favorite moments of the Olympics,
(58:27):
tell me what's going through your mind in that moment
when you know the rest of the world at this
point didn't know, but you know what you've been through.
Speaker 1 (58:39):
Yeah, it was. It was really strange but really lovely
that that morning before the final, Like, yes, I was nervous,
I one hundred percent was, but it was almost like
I was just accepting of whatever there was to come,
which was a very different sty eight compared to where
(59:02):
I was at in Rio, where I was just terrified
and the only outcome that I could possibly see or
possibly cope with would be a gold medal. Yeah, I
was nervous, but there was this really beautiful sense of
calm as well, which was so lovely because considering like
five weeks earlier, when I was just hot mess, I
(59:22):
was really scared that I would get to get into
the Olympics and feeling like that, and I wasn't you know,
I was myself again, because I'm usually someone who's pretty
in control, and I was. I was calm, and I
was like, oh, this feels good going into these Olympics.
My goal was best execution. Can I execute the race
(59:43):
to the best of my ability in whatever physical or
mental state that I have on the day, can I
swim a race that is the best representation of that?
And that's ultimately all you can ask of yourself, right
because at some time, invariably, someone is going to be
better than you, and they're going to do a better
job than you. And if you believe that the only
(01:00:03):
way that you've done a good job is if you
want a gold medal, at some point you're going to
just be so bitterly disappointed. And I had been in
that point before. I was just I was really clear
on exactly what I needed to do in that race,
and standing behind the blocks, I was really deliberate in
my thought processes, and you know, remained in the moment,
(01:00:24):
and then I touched the wall and I knew with
complete certainty that I had executed that perfect race right,
that I had done everything that I possibly could to
get the best out of myself. But I also knew
I had one because I was right next to Emma McKeon,
who did win, and she was, you know, a good
(01:00:46):
arm's length in front of me. So I had this
this moment where I had peace before I turned around
and looked at the scoreboard, and then once I saw
I want a bronze medal and that at all like
came out and I was just yeah, and I'd won
a bronze medal by six one hundreds of a second
because I was six one hundreds of a second in
(01:01:07):
front of the person who got fourth. That's the blink
of a human eye. If I had allowed myself to
be derailed for even a fraction of a second before
or during the race, I wouldn't have ended up on
the podium. So yeah, and then I was just so happy,
and I honestly, I honestly felt like i'd want gold,
(01:01:30):
like and I know that I did it, but I.
Speaker 3 (01:01:32):
Just I really felt like I didn't.
Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
And then it was beautiful because Emma of caused one
gold and so we got to see the national anthem
on the podium together and I was like, ah, the
thing I just cried for for the whole rest of
the session. I look back, I'm like, oh my god,
I'm so embarrassed by it, but at the same time,
I'm just fully embraced it and led it. I couldn't
(01:01:56):
contain it.
Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
I have full body goosebump when you talk about that.
That must have just been such a fulfilling, tremendous feeling.
After putting yourself through such torment for so long.
Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
Yeah, and I think that, you know, so many people
were like, oh, you know, do you need to atone
for real? Like the narrative was around this redemption story,
and to be honest, I was just like, it's not
a redemption story. I'm just lugging to be here and
no one knows that. So I've done a lot just
(01:02:30):
to get here. Forget the redemption. It's just about getting here.
It's been that much of a struggle.
Speaker 3 (01:02:35):
Tell me about Iron Woman.
Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
Oh, I pick a song before each competition and that
just kind of gets put on repeat, and it has
to be catchy, so it like sticks in your brain
so that when you start to I tend to catastrophize
a lot. And there was just something about those lyrics
that I just just resonated with me so strongly. You
(01:03:02):
are the person you are because of the experiences that
you had, and like, yes, that you know you've been down,
but that's what's made you stronger and all of these things.
I think what resonated with me about that song was
that it didn't shy away from the fact that things
were really hard. But it's in the tough times that
you get your strength, and I was like, I've had
(01:03:24):
some tough types, so I'm really strong.
Speaker 3 (01:03:28):
I've got a second ear ring in my left. Look
how badass I am. It's a pretty cool anthem.
Speaker 1 (01:03:38):
Though, like, ah yeah, it was my mindset coach who
kind of suggested it. She was like, for me, when
I think of you, I just think of I a woman.
And I was like, yes, that is the song that
is going to be it mew.
Speaker 2 (01:03:54):
With all that said and done, what would you tell
the sixteen year old that was first going to to
an Olympics, the little girl that's going to be a
golden girl and the pressure on her shoulders and you've
got a massive smile when you're almost visualizing that little
sixteen year old.
Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
Oh, she was so earnest. She was so earnest, and
she thought she knew so much. She actually didn't know anything.
I think this whole experience has made me see the
(01:04:32):
value of people and human connections and relationships so much
more than I think I had previously. So I would
say that invest in people because they are going to
be what get you through life. It's not going to
be the highs or the accolades or the metal sitting
(01:04:54):
in socks down there. It's interesting because part of me says, oh,
you know, try and have a bit more balanced life.
But when you're trying to achieve something really great, balance
gods out of whack. And that's just the way it is.
But I would say that in investing a bit more
time and effort and energy into the people around you,
and I was just lucky that I had some really
(01:05:16):
great people who allowed themselves to be completely neglected by
me and was still there. But it makes me very
grateful that I had them. If I have one regret
out of it all, it was that I allowed myself
to be so consumed by my ambition that I forgot
how important those people were to me.
Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
And to be kind to yourself and to be kind
to yourself.
Speaker 1 (01:05:42):
Yeah, but I think that one of the beauties is
when you invest in other people when you can't be
kind to yourself, they can help you be kind to yourself.
But when you're kind to other people, you're more likely
to be kind to yourself, And when you're kind yourself,
you're more like to be kind to other people. Like
a kind of it's all circuit so profound.
Speaker 2 (01:06:02):
It's funny because I've said, you know, in the last
couple of years that if you can't find the capacity
to be kind to yourself, do something nice for somebody else,
Because you're right, it does help. If nothing else, it
gets you out of your own head. And the other
thing is I think now the good people life experiences.
If you can tick those two things off, the rest
(01:06:23):
of it doesn't seem to matter so much.
Speaker 1 (01:06:25):
Yeah, and I think that the past eighteen months have
really shone a light on how warped our aspirations have become.
I'm no longer impressed by fancy things or chines, trinkets.
The people who I look to and respect to those
who make meaningful connections with other people.
Speaker 3 (01:06:46):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (01:06:47):
I mean, you have achieved so much, but this has
just been a real joy, getting a greater insight into
the mentality and the resilience and what you've overcome.
Speaker 3 (01:06:57):
And you have a lot of things that you say
that I'm.
Speaker 2 (01:06:58):
Like, yeah, So I really appreciate your time and congratulations
because it was an epic campaign, a couple of gold
and a bronze that I think the whole country was
super proud of you, So well done. I really appreciate
your time today, that's bad time. Thanks for listening to
(01:07:20):
this episode of Ordinarily Speaking. If this chat was triggering
for you, please know there is help out there beyond
blue dot Org, dot au or Lifeline are just a
couple of places you can go if you want to
get in touch with the podcast at Ordinarily Underscore Speaking
on Instagram or at Narrowly Underscore Meadows on Twitter. A
(01:07:41):
new episode will drop next week.
Speaker 1 (01:07:45):
Jesus or a meg.
Speaker 2 (01:08:02):
Because I'm comp between the fire and with send me
that you want a mego
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