April 5, 2022 • 63 mins
#OrdineroliSpeaking Kirby Bentley is a genuine trailblazer. A former netball and AFLW star, Kirby is now the first Indigenous woman to coach a VFLW or VFL side. Having grown up in country WA, Kirby is willing to engage in some uncomfortable conversations in order for us all to understand each other better. Her life has been shaped by tragedy - Kirby's Auntie Andrea was subjected to domestic violence and killed at the hands of her estranged husband. Kirby shares her story in the hope it will help empower young girls.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Aboriginal Enta stradi under listeners or advised. This episode contains
stories of someone who is deceased, including the use of
their name. Ordinarily speaking, we walk in one world, but
in my view, I think we walk in three. Your world,
(00:21):
our world, and my worlds on time.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Hello and welcome to this episode of Ordinarily Speaking, I'm
Narrowly Meadows. Kirby Bentley is a genuine trailblazer the West.
Dozzie started her sporting career in netball before making the
transition to the newly formed AFLW for filling a lifelong dream.
Now thirty five, she's recently been appointed as the senior
(00:58):
coach of the Western Bulldogs vfl W side, the first
Indigenous woman to hold such a role. Kirby wants to
use her standing to help change the narrative and empower
young girls challenging gender norms along the way, the memory
and strength of her Auntie Andrea with her every step
of the way. I ask you to listen to this
(01:20):
episode with an open heart as we discuss some uncomfortable truths.
Sharing stories helps us understand each other better, and Kirby
has an incredible story to tell. Please know this episode
contains a graphic conversation around violence. If it's triggering, there
is help out there. One eight hundred, Respect Beyond Blue,
(01:41):
dot org dot AU or Lifeline one three double one
one four are just a couple of places you can go.
We caught up in Melbourne just before the WA border reopened.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
I hope you enjoyed the chat.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Kervy, thank you so much for doing this. I really
appreciate it. Tell me what it means to you to
be a NOMA woman.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Well, I'm proud first of all. So growing up in Australia,
in Western Australian, in Country Australia, in Country w A especially,
it was always hard, hard in the sense of racism
and discrimination. So for me to be an Aboriginal and
to be proud is a powerful thing. So, you know,
(02:46):
First Nations and one of the oldest living cultures in
the world is huge and it's undervalued. I think.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Tell me about what it was like growing up.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
So yeah, country country is really black and white and
it feels like it's still set in the seventies. So
if you look at a lot of our country families,
their farmers and they tend to stay there. And it's
the generation that takes over the next and that flow
on effect and we learn what our elders teach us.
(03:20):
So if my mum and dad taught me to show disrespect,
then that's how I would be to anyone and everyone,
because that's what I know and understand. So if they
teach me to be respectful or to show courtesy or
loyalty or whatever that looks like, and then that's the
same thing. So in my head, from my experiences, a
(03:42):
lot of those people who are still in the country
that I grew up with, their generation above them and
above that have all stayed there and have all been
told and learned the same thing. So when you hear
racist comments or anything derogatory or discriminate, it's yeah, it's
come or stem from that.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
I think. Did you hear that growing up?
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Yep? Yep. I think the first time I heard it,
there were two of my cousins which I call my
cousins but were not blood related. But there were few
Aboriginal people in our town, but it was just that
it was Aboriginal and white people and they were in
the school yard. This is primary school, so I would
have been maybe year four or five, not very old,
(04:26):
and my best friends. They were all white and all
boys as well, and I remember watching my two cousins
scuffle with two white boys and two of my best
friends I've known since three four started using the word
bung and kone l like I don't worry about the colonel,
And it shocked me because I'd never heard it from
their mouth in my life. And as I said before,
(04:48):
the first time hearing that that's obviously come from their parents,
and that's a hard thing, I guess to hear from anyone.
But I remember snapping my head at them and just saying,
what the hell, like, why are you saying that? I'm
not you, just them. That's obviously they're categorizing us as
aboriginals are this, and that's their perception in a negative way,
(05:10):
so of course it's going to be offensive. And that
was probably the first time. And I remember going home to
Mum and Dad and saying the same thing, and they
just said, make sure you tell them that that's not okay.
So and I'm glad that I pulled them up on
that day. But I've never heard them say it ever again.
That's not to say that they've never used that language
ever again, but yeah, they've never used it in front
of me again.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Do you remember how that moment made you feel?
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Yeah, Well, like I was a pretty naive young kid.
This is probably put it into perspective. I thought Australia
was the world. I thought that the accents on TV
American asient whatever accents I didn't understand. I thought that
was all for TV. So that's how naive I was.
(05:54):
So yeah, when that was said to me, knowing that
I've grown up with these boys, like these are my kids,
where we've grown up forever together, and to hear that
is just, yeah, you don't really want to feel like
that shame about your own culture, because that's all I understood.
(06:15):
So I knew that I was Aboriginal, but I didn't
know what that meant, if that makes any sense. So
for me to say that I'm proud to be who
I am now, it's because I now understand what our
culture is and who I am and where that bloodline
flows on from.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
You talk about shame and you talk about pride. How
long did it take to make that transition from one
to the other.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
I think my whole childhood in regards to growing up
in Mount Barker, it was really hard to not feel
the shame factor and trying to show how proud you
are of who you are and who your family and
your bloodlines are because the perception and you go to
school and you're outnumbered. So most times in my year,
(07:05):
I was probably the only original person. Another two years older,
there was another cousin, and then my sisters were two
years younger and two years younger again, so there weren't
many of us all the time, but when there were
there were still we were still way out numbered to
be able to fight that battle or to know how
to as well.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
When did you get to a point where you went, Yeah,
I'm proud and I'm here and I'm unapologetic.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
So it's funny you asked. I was voted in his
head Girl, which is random because I was a tomboy
at school and I was friends with everyone. I thought
I was friends with everyone and got along and I
was cheeky, So I guess that's how that vote kind
of came in because I was able to bring people together.
All of my school friends, as I said, they were farmers,
so they had money in ours, they had money. We
(07:54):
didn't really have money. So Mum had this red falcon
ex I think it was called and it broke down.
So we had a prefect meeting and there were twelve
of us, and all of my school friends had all
these flash cars, and I just remember our car not
starting and I was in the passenger seat and I
slid down in a physical act, and it was my
(08:17):
dad blew up at me. So it was Dad took
me down to the school and he said, don't you
ever do that ever again. Don't ever feel like you
have to be shame about anything. This is what we
have and this is what it is. And it was
probably from that moment that I then realized that if
I had New Balance and somebody had nikes on it,
it was only because that was what we were able
(08:40):
to have. So I think I started to shift the
way that I thought about things. Then. Obviously you're young
and you're immature, and you don't fully grasp it, but
I think that was probably the turning point. If I
reflect on it, you were just.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Ahead of your time. Because New Balance is big now.
Steve Smith brought it back in a big how much
does it drive you representation?
Speaker 1 (09:04):
It's huge because it's still it's still so it's happening
so much in today's world and we're in two thousand
and twenty two. So when you look at it, like
even from a sexism stance, female and male and the
equality of that, even that's a fair bit behind. And
when it comes to being our Aboriginal in Australia, our
(09:26):
battles are still what they are. They're a little more
spoken about and people are a little bit more educated,
but not fully and to be able to have those open,
honest conversations in regards to just creating a conversation, not
knowing what is offensive and what isn't, we're still not
able to do that. That's huge for change and for
(09:48):
growth and for moving forward for both Aboriginals and Australians
in general. Regardless of what your bloodline is, So even
if you're an Asian Australia or Chinese Australian or a
French Australian, whatever that is so for me that's invaluable,
but that's still a long way away. So do you like.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
People coming up and asking the uncomfortable questions?
Speaker 1 (10:11):
So yeah, I would prefer that any day. I would
prefer them to say I don't know how to ask this,
but this is what I want to understand. And I
would either correct them and to say, yes, this is
offensive because of this, and I'd explain it because it's
important that they understand why it is so. Abbo and
kone and all those words are offensive because it was
(10:32):
used in a derogative way that we that were trying
to offend us or put us in a certain box
and make us feel small. When somebody, for example, has
brought up why can't we say abbo because we shorten everything.
That's an ouzzy thing to do, but not a part
of our history in culture and creating that change, that's
(10:53):
not okay. So explaining that and for people to hear
that and then share that with other people they're having
conversations with when Aboriginals aren't around is a very important
thing and impactful.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
You mentioned before sexism and being a woman, and in
so many industries that still exists when those two crossover,
and you are an indigenous woman, how challenging has it
been for you?
Speaker 1 (11:20):
If we look on a scale, I guess of where
people sit, So we've got the white male at the top,
and then probably the white female, and then every other
culture kind of fits in the middle, and then the
Aboriginal woman is at the bottom. So when we look
at anything to do with our health or help or
(11:42):
our needs and what it is that we need for
us to be better in our lives. In families, we
hold the responsibility of making sure everything stays together. So
we're the glue where everything and our matriarch, they're the
ones we always go to, but they're the ones that
always copy it and take all all the brunt of things. So,
as an Aboriginal woman in Australia and as a woman
(12:04):
in general, so we would have the same battles and
challenges in regards to our workplace, but then it'll be
on a different level when it comes to something else.
So if an opportunity comes up, you're more than likely
to get that step forward because it's easier for them
to help you than it is to help me.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
How tough is that to live with and not overcome
but work through? Knowing that those are the kind of
challenges that you're confronted by every day.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Well, yeah, it's definitely difficult. That sense of belonging that
I never really feel like I have, if that makes sense.
So if you go into a workplace, you're going in guarded.
So it's kind of like when we walk down a street,
just as a woman in general, we walk down the
street at night time, We've just got to be aware
(12:51):
of our surroundings, look around. That's just trying to put
that into perspective. When you go into any workplace, you
kind of have to know one under stand what that person, who,
that is, where they fit with you, and trying to
figure out how you fit with them to then know
what kind of guard you hold up and what you
let down to then know that it's going to be
(13:13):
okay or I've got to be careful here.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Is it rare to feel safe? And I don't mean
safe necessarily in a physical sense, but just feeling, like
you say, belonging accepted.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Yeah, yeah, yes, I think so. Bulldogs is probably the
first time I've genuinely felt like I do belong in
the sense that I'm well supported and they believe in
my ability and what I bring. And that's from a
football stance, but that's obviously empowering as an Aboriginal person,
but also as an Aboriginal woman.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
The analogy that I use for sort of what you
described about, you know, being a woman and walking down
the street and stuff like that. The footy analogy is
we talk about perceived pressure and pressure raps, and it's
not necessarily the actual statistics, but the corralling and the
you know, feeling under pressure, and that makes it draws
you into the mistake or the error. And that's kind
of for me how it feels when other people don't
(14:07):
necessarily see it happening, but you feel it happening to yourself.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Yeah, one hundred percent, like you know straight away. And
women can see it as well, and they can sense
like we've got a pretty good intuition naturally as women,
because we're always having to be two steps ahead. And
I explained this at work. So I was in construction
tunneling doing some rigging work, only female worker amongst all
(14:32):
one hundred men, and a superintendent was talking to me, Oh,
how do you find it? And everything else is said.
I feel like I'm always having to do everything well
above and beyond what is supposed to be done, because
the one time that I don't do it quite right,
I don't belong here. But men can kind of not
(14:55):
do it nine times out of ten, and that one
time they get it right. Yeah, yeah, they've got the job.
They're good for this role. And it's such a different
perception and world to live in. But that's the reality
of it. And he never ever thought of that because
obviously he has he's not a woman, and he's never
been in those shoes because he's always had opportunities given.
(15:16):
He's either said yes, I am capable, even if he's not,
and he's gone and done it and then learn just
off the cuff of it. So for us, we don't
really say yes unless we know that we can do
more than And it's a really interesting way of looking
at it, but that's us keeping ourselves safe.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Tell me a little bit about your parents and what
they were like.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
They were, Yeah, they were good. So Mum and Dad
both always they always said to me, kids have to
stay in a kids place. And I think that's why
I was so naive. I thought, obviously Astoria was the world,
so that that wasn't true. So I was able to
live and have that fun outside style of living in
a country, so playing football, doing whatever that looks like.
(16:01):
So I wasn't really allowed to be around adults. Bedtime
was always at seven, home and away. If they were
kissing or anything on there, I wasn't allowed to watch it.
It was just it was crazy and I was back
and you kind of go, what was going on there?
Kids are watching worse Now.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
I wasn't allowed to watch over and away, but.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
It must have been the generation of them and they
must have all talked about it too, So I don't
think most of us were allowed to because they did that,
and for me being naive, I was experiencing things for
the first time and only being educated when I needed
to know. So I was twelve when I first got
my period, so before that I didn't even know that
(16:41):
even happens.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
So when I used to do karate, I went up
to Perth for a grading, so Dad always drove me
up because I've got two younger sisters so that always
stay in Mount Barker to go to school. So Dad
would drive up four hours. This time I remember it happening.
I thought something was wrong with me. I said to Dad,
I said, something's wrong. We need to go to the hospital.
And he didn't know how to have the conversation with
(17:05):
me because Aboriginal men don't really that's not their area,
so they just wears mum. So Mum wasn't with us,
so nan I remember her sitting on the bed and
I was laying because I was a tomboy nickname was Billy,
and I had no idea what the hell was going
on with me, So hands behind my head, like pretty
(17:27):
pissed off about it, and it's going what the hell?
And Nan was trying to explain, you know when you
become a young woman, and I was like, I don't
want to be that pissed ohole, Like I was so angry,
and then when it left, I was like, oh, it's done,
so just one time. Two weeks later, I had a
netball kind of the same thing in Perth, but it
was worse. But I also wasn't prepared for it, so
(17:49):
it was probably it was the most embarrassing thing, but
most unspoken thing. On top of having women like female
coaches and older players around me and not being able
to pull me aside and help me understand that, I
was kind of left alone with it. And as embarrassing
as it was for me, I could see people looking
(18:10):
on reflection, I could see people looking at me, and
it was on a need to know basis, so I
only need to know about my period when it happened.
So sometimes staying in a kid's place was very beneficial
not understanding you know, some of the things that happen
in adult lives, but in those circumstances, yeah, you need
(18:31):
to know those things. So it was good in that
sense that they did keep me in a kid's place,
But yeah, I wish that they were one step ahead
and educating and the reasons why and so we can
ask questions and not feel that shame factor, because yeah,
I just didn't know what was going on. So even
without rest, I was remember standing in the shower trying
(18:53):
to push him back in because I wanted to play
afl with the West Coast Eagles, So I just didn't
know what was happening. Yeah, I'm trying to explain it,
and I think I was selective hearing and just I'll
still Adam and I was going to play football for
with Ben Cousins and we're a punda.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
So I mean that in itself is it's so telling
of how much has changed in the last few years
now that there is AFLW and you end up playing
in the afl W as well, but also gender identity
and all of those things. And we've seen, you know,
Darcy Vessio recently come out as non binary, and that
(19:31):
sounds like it was a really challenging time or confusing
time in your life.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Is that fair? Yeah? Well, so I'm a visual person
and if I don't see different, I don't understand it.
It wasn't until I was in Perth again, but I
was playing no shirt on hat backwards as Billy the kid,
football in hand all day with these two brothers kicking
and everything else. So Kirby is not exactly Charlotte, so
(19:56):
it's not noticeable that I'm a girl either, and I
look like a act like a boy. End of the day,
we're drinking around the side of the house and one
of the brothers. I don't know, boys can probably explain
this or men or why they would do this, but
one of the brothers pulled open their shorts and showed
me their little peanuts and same age, and I leaned
over and I was shocked. I was like, what the fuck?
(20:18):
What is that? What is happening? They're like and the
other brother did it, and they're like Charles Joel's curb,
and I just started feeling because I was I was
probably like eight or nine, and I was like, I
don't have one, and I just remember grabbing my shirt
because the mom came, what are you boys doing? Like?
Go back outside and play? And I remember tacking my
shirt on, walking back all confused and looking at Dad
(20:40):
and they're looking at Mum and then watching the foot
he was on that night as well, and just really
tripping out what's going on? I knew that I was
a girl, I just didn't know what that looked like
from a visual point.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
How do you feel about gender now?
Speaker 1 (20:55):
It is what it is. If people feel a certain
way and they want to be who they were to
be or who they feel they are, then that's who
they are. You can't argue with that. I can't change
who you are. And it's just like it's like anything else.
Why should you.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Netball champion, footy gun now, footy coach, first Indigenous woman
to be a senior coach of a VFL or VFLW team.
What is sport represented to you throughout your life?
Speaker 1 (21:27):
I think sports what has kept me together. So I
had not broken English, but because I didn't understand the
school system and what it is that I needed to
learn and understand. It wasn't until like I played in
my first state team and it was bringing Bianco Franklin
to original girls and blackfellows you always want to kind
(21:47):
of draw to, and they're like my big sisters, So
I've always seen him in that way and they've always
looked at me in that way as well, which is
a powerful thing, and it's a great thing as a
young original girl and a younger girl coming from Mount
Baker to step into a team that has that. But
I think in my first two state teams, because it
pretty much stayed the same players for those two years,
(22:09):
I don't think I ever spoke, and because I didn't
really know how to use a knife and fork, I
just do the old fork, stab into the food and
just smash it down as quick as I could because
I could because I wanted to go and play or whatever.
So I actually didn't know how to use utensils. As
small as it is. It was so significant when we
went out to dinner because I'd never been to a
restaurant before that, and before that, I'd never been to
(22:31):
an airport, let alone being on the plane. So my
first trials had just rewinder. Second, I remember seeing there
were two hundred girls and at the end there was
Phase one and there was a cart. One hundred girls
were cart and Phase two and another cart. Then phase
three it said team selection and then camera. So at
list this is showing me age once again driving home
(22:53):
four hours and so oh dad wears camera because when
we get home, looking the outlets. So the first thing
I did walked in the house, put my bags down,
pulled out this old Atlas book and was looking for
camber in wa searching for ages, and I said Dad,
I said I can't find it, and he goes, it's
over here. I was like, do we have to get
a plane and he goes, yeah, he goes. So I
(23:13):
started training my ass off because I wanted to go
on airplane. I didn't give a shit about what team up.
I didn't even know what I was trayling for, to
be honest. So I got selected and I was handed
this black and gold dress. So I was trailing for
State seventeens as a fourteen year old, no idea. It's
my whole family, my nan, my pop, Arnie's uncle's cousins.
I pretty much sat on half of the little theater
(23:35):
room that we're in, and then just mums and dads
of all the all the other girls. So yeah, I
got given this dress and gone on a plane and
flew to Canberra, and that was it. So learning about
knives and forks and speaking properly. The only reason I
started to speak the way that I speak and I
do what I do is because I've watched David Rupunda
(23:56):
and the way that he speaks and his stories and
using words in the right context for me to then understand, Oh,
that's what that means or this is how it should
have should sound, not like this. So I was learning
from that to then know how to interact. So two
years playing State with these girls, I started to use
(24:18):
similar language to what they would use because it was
private school girl and correct English. So that's the only
reason why I was able to speak the way I
speak and do what I do. And that's the only
reason why I am the way that I am and
I speak the way I speak. Now, so you can
get me to do any kind of work on the
internet or study, I just I won't know how to
(24:38):
do it, but I'd figure it out, but only because
I'd go and ask a thousand questions to people to
either show me or walk me through it. As an
Aboriginal woman in netball and then transitioning into football, I
need our girls and like white or whoever to understand
that we're not all the same and we do understand
(24:58):
things differently. And sometimes it's not that we don't want to,
sometimes we don't know how to, and it's just breaking
those barriers and understanding that our worlds are different. So
some girls don't come to training, it's not because they
don't want to, and it's not because they can't. It's
(25:19):
because there's something that just happened that they need to
make sure that is in place.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
First, do you know how powerful you are and your
voice is you talk about David Wode partner and stuff
like that. If you had listened to someone like you
at that age as a twelve year old listening to
a thirty five year old be as open and honest
as your being right now, how impactful would that have been.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
For you as a twelve year old girl. Oh, it's huge.
Because we're not taught to talk about a hardships. We're
not taught to talk about or go talk about anything
that has affected us in not necessarily a negative way,
but or even a growth way. But it's not allowed
to talk about it. We could talk about being proud
about things, but if it's say that our dad hit
(26:05):
mum last night. You can't say that you yelled at
or we don't have washing powder, we don't have money,
We're just not You don't talk about those things because
it's a shame factor, not on yourself but just from
a family perspective. But we're trying to shift perspectives too,
but we can't shift it unless people are open to it.
(26:26):
So can't I can't tell you that I don't have
any money because what I grew up to understand is
the perception is they don't think we have money. We
probably don't, but it's more saying this is why, or
this is this is where I fall down in this space.
Can you please help me? Those conversations haven't really been allowed.
(26:47):
If somebody had shared those things openly and I'd heard
that as a young Aboriginal woman, an end or man
or boy or whatever, you'd feel more inclined to then
know who they those people are that you can then
talk to because end of the day, your white friends
have a lot more influence and change than you do.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Let's hope that changes.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
But yeah, I can do as much as I as
much as I do, and I can have those conversations
around the dinner table, at breakfast with friends at footy clubs.
I can have those conversations, but unless we then go
to our homes. So there's thirty girls at Bulldogs and
they all go to their homes and then their brothers
(27:30):
and sisters then go to their friend's place. That's how
it expands. But if it just stays there with them,
that's as far as it gets.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
You need me to have the conversation as well.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Yeah, I need to continue it, to challenge it, educate yourself.
But I don't know everything about us and who we
are as a culture. But if I don't know, I'll
find it out and I'll own that too, because there's
a lot that I don't know, and vice versa. There's
a lot that I don't understand that you don't know either.
So unless we talk, we're walking in silence pretty much.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
You're listening to ordinarily speaking with Kirby Bentley, your mum.
You spoke a little bit about her, but what she
likes as a person, what she brings you up up.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
She is one of the strongest women. You always get
asked who's your role model as an athlete? It's never
been another athlete, or it's never been another superstar. It's
always been her, and I don't think she understands the
depth of her who she is and what she's done
to make me the woman I am, and how invaluable
(28:41):
and how valuable that has been. So her loyalty kind
of gets her stuck with people and it annoys me.
She's always kind and wants to help people first and
has always done that and has always been forgiving, but
at her detriment as a daughter. Now, I'll tell my
real age as a thirty five year old, you don't
(29:01):
want it. You don't want to see your mum in
that position, so I get really protective of it. But
growing up, she taught me the values that I that
I stand for and the way that I am, so loyalty, honesty, respect, integrity.
They're very key values and a lot of companies use
those values, but she's just done them instinctively. So she's
(29:23):
just Yeah, she's a good woman.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Massive smile on your Faceally and her sister, Andrea, your auntie,
tell me about her and what kind of person she
was to you.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Mum's sister was five years younger. Bubbly would yarn about
everything and call a spade a spade. In the most innocent,
funniest way, but it would just lighten the mood. But yeah,
be able to get somebody to own or be accountable
for something as well. So she was such a beautiful woman,
and I knew her up until I was twenty one.
(29:59):
But I'm sad that I didn't know her well as
an adult. So I love her and loved her unconditionally.
But yeah, you can't really live off regret. See that
an Andrew would call every week a few times, a
few times a week, and she had thirteen kids, so
they wanted to make sure that we knew them and
(30:21):
they knew us, and their relationship was a very, very
powerful bond.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
The day that you lost your auntie, which I realized
when we were sitting down to do this, was it's
the anniversary this week. So I'm really sorry because I
can't imagine anniversaries are particularly tough. No matter how many
years go by, what do you remember from that time?
Speaker 1 (30:48):
So that day, all significant things that have happened. I've
almost remembered everything that's happened in that day. So I
remember and Andrew going through this situation with her partner.
She had left him six months earlier. Restraining order in
place he'd breached it. There'd been a machete left on
(31:10):
letters saying I love Andrea Louise Pickett all and it
was just back in front of six pages written handwritten
on top of her diaries which he'd found, and he'd
left them in the house and basically left as a threat. Definitely,
definitely but ane. Andrea, another auntie and her two daughters
(31:32):
were at the house and when they came out to
get in the car with the evidence of what was
left there, he was at the restraining order distance, so
literally one hundred and fifty one meters standing there looking
at the house, looking at my aunties and cousins, leaving
as a threat. So he was in reach then. And
(31:56):
when and Andrew had made the complaint or report that
he'd breached the restraining order previously, it was disregarded, and
a time before that was also disregarded. So went to
the police station with the machete, the diaries, everything else,
and they were crying like Anandre knew in her in
her gut. She said it to us, she wrote it
(32:17):
in the diaries, that he's going to kill her some
way or another. And he said it to mum and
we tried as a family to put everything in place
to make sure that that wasn't going to happen. So
when they went to the police that day with the
machetes and the diaries and put it on and explained everything.
The moment Anandrea and my other Arnie went and sat
(32:39):
down or like literally turned around, they grabbed the machete
and just kind of playing swords with it, which is
like obviously a neglect of their role as policemen. So
they didn't take it seriously, which was found in the
court cases. And I think from that moment, I remember
(33:00):
her sitting with Mum crying and said, he's going to
kill me, and when he does, I need you to
take my babies and look after them. So I remember
Mum just saying yep, she goes, I will, but nothing's
going to happen. So the couple days later, and Andrea
(33:22):
went and stayed with the Arnie she was with that
her house, so a different house. My sister was with
Andrew that night and my other auntie and a cousin,
so they were walking from the house because he had
made another threat. That walked from the house down mirror
Booker av which is maybe a fifteen minute walk to
(33:43):
get to where they were going. So there was a
McDonald's at the end of two traffic lights, and he'd
come over and I really don't know how where he
came from and how he even knew where they were,
but he'd came over the hill, run at An Andrea,
my sister, and my cousins and threatened her. Then my
(34:03):
sister had her phone called triple zero. As calm as
she was, she was scared as all hell, but we
naturally were protective in nature, so she was also on
the defensive while making the phone call, trying to pull
Annie Andrea back, but throwing a bottle at him and
just saying triple zero. Kenneth Charles Pickett has a restraining
(34:28):
order against Andrea Luise Pickett. He's now threatened her and
us with a knife. He said he's going to kill her,
and he because the phone call was on, he'd taken
off again ran to the car. By the time he
got to the car, my auntie and cousins have all
just run back to the house. And he'd already been
at the house and cut the brake lines of all
(34:49):
the cars in the driveway and in the yard. So
this has happened in one week, within days of each other,
and the next day move locations again. So I went
to my Aunie's brother's house in North Beach and I
went to I was playing West Coast Fever at the time.
So that day I went to training. One of my teammates,
(35:09):
I was becoming a detective, and I said to Mama,
I said, I'll talk to Hell's I'll ask her what
we can do. So when we're getting to training, we
had we had a beat test, we had testing everything.
I just remember it being such a solid session and
running the beat test and doing court work and who
was running next to it was so vivid. So I
get home, it was late, it was maybe eleven o'clock.
(35:32):
Mum was on the phone to Annie Andrea that night,
so she was talking. Sounded good. Ani Andrew's on speaker,
like a walk in the door. Mum says, However, I
was training, how'd you go with your testing? And Annie
Andrew asking the same question, and I was like, I
think you should come over. I kept pressing it because
I had a shower and she's still on the phone,
so that are you going to come over and just
(35:54):
come and stay with us. You can sleep in my
sleep in my bed. I'll sleep on the couch or
whatever she does. No, no, no, it's okay. Uncle Dennis
is here, you know, Aunties and another uncle. So they
were were surrounded by adults and people. So from a
family perspective, we put in place what we thought would help.
(36:15):
But from him, from the attacker, he was just so
cunning and so patient, and everything was planned and premeditated.
But because he was such a coward and gutless, he
was so sly about it. Obviously we never saw what
(36:35):
was coming. So Mama had got off the phone, probably
about eleven forty pm, and I couldn't sleep in my room.
I was just something was just spinning in my head.
And I remember getting out. All the lights were still on,
and Mum and Dad were outside, and I went in
laid in like there was a spare room with a
single bed. It was just random full moon still night
(36:56):
blinds were up, and it was just before Mum walked
in the room. I sat up and I just remember
looking outside and just feeling off. It was such a
bizarre feeling. And I've always had these gut feelings when
things have happened, like significant things and Mum. As I
looked back, Mum and opened the door, flowing of tears,
(37:18):
and she said, Annie, Andrew's just being attacked. I was like,
what do you mean, what do you mean? She's been attacked?
She's been attacked, And her tears were saying what happened.
Her mouth was saying what she wanted to feel like
was happening. So I knew she was attacked, but she
wanted to be the extent that she knew in her
(37:40):
gut for what she heard on the phone calls. So
as soon as Mum left, I got them all up
and we followed. So when we got there, there were
four police cars and flagging off everything, and it was
a hot summer's night. Mum especially tried to run through
the barriers and the flagging because it was on the
(38:00):
side of the road and we you know, we could see,
we could see everything. So he'd found out where we
stayed by one of the older daughters, and one of
the older daughters drove him to this house and there
was an apartment block behind like my uncle's place. And
when you stand in front of a fence and there's
light shining from the back of the fence over to
(38:22):
the house. When you look at that building, you can't
you can see just shadow. So because he was standing
on the inside of the fence in the shadow, in
all black, we couldn't see him. No one could see him.
He'd jumped through the back window and it was stealth like.
It was so quick. He'd got in and out stabbed
(38:43):
the uncle that was in bed in the neck and
in the chest. By then, this uncle had yelled out,
he's here, he's here, and the three armies had run
out the front, but he was already at the front.
And Andrew had her second youngest base in her arms,
and he had already started attacking her or nicking her,
(39:05):
so she dropped her and he'd kept committing the attack.
So he had a machete and he knew what he
wanted to do. There were a few hundred nicks, and
then there were obviously stab wounds on top of that.
But that was his one thing that he went there
to do, and he did it. So yeah, one of
(39:28):
the arnies witnessed it. You can't really defend against someone
like that because he was there to kill. He was
there for no other reason. And if you were in
the way, you were also a part of that, So
that attack happened within ten minutes phone call shot to mum.
He'd already jumped that back fence, and in the end
(39:49):
we found out that he went and got dropped off
where he was staying with his brother in a suburb across.
So Bowga washed his clothes, put the knives on the
lawn sink, had to shower, and just sat there and
watched TV like nothing happened. So we were pressing the
police to find Canaya. We thought he had taken her,
(40:13):
and that was the only reason why they were extra
alarmed because it was a child. Now in this so
Danny Andrews is now laying on the bitchumen on the
road or the curb passed away, and now they're starting
to look because cana is missing. Two hours later found
her hiding inside behind the couch, drenched in sweat because
(40:34):
she's obviously in fear. She would have been three years old,
witnessed this whole scenario and have Yeah, he's just in
complete shock at this stage. There were helicopters and everything else,
but couldn't find him. That actually literally couldn't locate him.
He ended up driving with his family to the courthouse
(40:55):
because he thought that our family were going to attack
him before that. That was the only the police didn't
find him. The police didn't go and pick him up
and or visit that place for the severity and the
reports that an Andrea had made and that we had
made as families, Yeah, they just not at any stage
(41:17):
did they take it serious. And throughout the court findings,
the yeah, it was pretty noticeable. And that goes for police,
child support, refugees, everything.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Am I right in saying your auntie's case actually prompted
internal investigations and change in the way that they handled things.
They acknowledged publicly and apologized publicly.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Yes, yes, so, yes, the police had owned their wrongdoing
or acknowledged it. Four corners did their investigation and found
the same thing. But so one of the comments from
a cop like you lot always make this complaint and
then you always go back, so what's the point? And
that that was a comment, and that was throughout the
court cases. If you read back through the transcript, that's
(42:03):
what you'll see. Like, it's so disappointing because we're not
all the same. You and I are the same, We
can make the same decisions and same mistakes consistently but
it doesn't mean we're the same and we're in the
same circumstance or situation, or we can be in the
same circumstance situation, but you can make a different decision
and leave, but I can stay. And that was how
(42:24):
they were treating it all the average and women just
you just stay there, so it doesn't matter. But Annie
Andrewa never left him, and the one time she did,
she made that decision and that was final. So when
she left, she left, and when she put the restraining
order on, that was held there and then it was
(42:44):
revisited and then reissued. When you look at her case,
there was no reason why she shouldn't shouldn't have been
protected or believed or supported.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
Do you remember how you felt when you turned up
at their house that day and saw the scene in
front of you?
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Oh? Yeah, Like I was in shock, but I went
into not protective mode. But I was so aware of
Mum that I couldn't see anything else. So I just
remember following her around because I knew that like that
(43:24):
had changed all of us. And I always say I'm lucky,
like I've still got my sister's and I've still got
my mom and dad, So I'm lucky, but to see
that and to see my mom the way that she was,
that was probably the most heartbreaking experience at that time
that I've ever felt. So I don't think we slept
(43:45):
for nearly two and a half days. She didn't sleep,
I didn't sleep. I followed her through the backyard and
she's just gone and dropped on the grass, and I
didn't know how to help her. So she's dropped to
her knees and she's broke down and that. Yeah, I
don't know if I could just walk past me and
said I'll look after it. But yeah, I just remember
(44:08):
this feeling so broken.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
H that is such a lot to live through.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
It. Yeah, I don't know how I would. I don't
know how I would do it if I was if
that was my mum and dad, and I don't know
how I'll do it if it was my sister's. You know,
if you think about it, you just, yeah, it's just
(44:47):
such a if you Yeah, if you really, if you
really think, how people can get through that. I don't know.
I don't know, because it was, Yeah, that was hard
(45:08):
to watch. It was hard to live in.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
How has it changed your life?
Speaker 1 (45:18):
So when I so in the country we'll go back to,
just to put it into perspective. So I started playing
netball representing WA. I was with the Orioles squad, which
is West Coast fever since I was sixteen to year eleven.
(45:40):
I'd moved up in year eleven and twelve, and netball
was such a huge commitment with little monetary rewards. So
when I say little, I mean like we might get
fifty dollars to fly into state and play a national
ag game. If we make the court, we might get
one hundred dollars, If we play a whole game, might
get one hundred and fifty. So it was you literally
(46:01):
did it for the love of it, but the commitment
was massive. So at one stage I was so overly
I would say committed, but I think selfish. I was
going to sew so many of these training sessions morning
and afternoon after school, and having two younger sisters, I
lost that relationship with them, but without realizing, and when
(46:25):
I say without realizing, at that time, I didn't care
because of who I was at as a person and
what I understood. So I wanted to play for Australia
and it was about me training and everything else. So
It was probably literally until that night that I then
appreciated that I had sisters and I was the oldest,
(46:49):
and I saw the way that Mum was broken, and
I could see the way it affected my nan and
uncle Gary, so their brother, and I just didn't want that.
I didn't want that for us. I was twenty four,
and it was literally the week later I just started
making phone calls to my sisters and just trying to
(47:10):
establish or rebuild a relationship as adults, because we knew
each other as little kids. And I left like when
I was sixteen, so middle sister was just a teenager
and I didn't really live back home again. So that
was probably the biggest life changing or the turning point
in regards to valuing them and appreciating Mum and Dad
(47:33):
and time time with people. So I started to spend
time with people who wanted to spend time with me.
Annie Andrea asked Mum to take her seven babies, and
that's exactly from her values loyalty and integrity, and she
said she would, and she tried to do her absolute best.
(47:55):
But when you go through an experience like that, and
this is from the lens of a daughter who still
has her mum and still has her sisters. She was
in her darkest world and trying to be present as
an auntie and a mother figure while dealing with her.
(48:17):
I would say deep depression at the time, because you
can't not be depressed or heartbroken. And I believe in
real heartbreak, as in a genuine heart tear, because she
looked broken. There's no other way to describe it, and
I've never seen someone like that.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
Can you ever recover from a heartbreak a heart tear?
Speaker 1 (48:42):
I don't think you. No, I don't think you ever recover.
It's like crack glass. You can kind of glut back together,
but it will always still have its cracks in it.
There's not a day that I don't go without thinking
about the loved ones that have left this world. So
I can only imagine that it would be a couple
of times a day for her and f roun kle Garian.
(49:05):
My Nan was around when Mum hurt. She hurt and
it was deep, but she didn't know how to cope
with that or deal with it because talking or communicating
or sharing feelings wasn't something that we were familiar with.
So I understand the only reason I know how to
communicate differently is because of sport.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
How's your mum doing? Now?
Speaker 1 (49:28):
She's good, she's better, but it has taken since two
thousand and nine. She will never be full again or
complete again.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
Given everything that you've taken on and now you're over
in Victoria and even in the pandemic and the challenge
that that provides of you know, we haven't been able
to get back to wa or certainly not easily. How
tough has it been on you.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
You always know when you need to put your feet
back on country. It's for some people who don't understand
it's a bizarre concept to need to do that. But
I think I need to go home, even as for
a second, I just I need to get home. There's yeah,
you're stuck. There's no way of Actually you get on
(50:19):
a plane and then you're isolate. But we know as
adults we've got to also then provide an income and
everything else. So you go over for fourteen days and
you're stuck in a place that you don't really need
to be in because you just need to hug your
mum and put your feet back in your country and
just be grounded, just to rejuvenate or just to fill
(50:43):
the battery back up. But it's just yeah, it's been challenging. Yeah,
you'd say the same.
Speaker 2 (50:51):
It's going to be nice to get back home.
Speaker 1 (50:52):
Oh, I can't wait. I can't wait.
Speaker 2 (50:57):
I've taken up so much of your time.
Speaker 1 (50:59):
I know that.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
I did want to ask you about the injuries, because
they've had a big impact on your life, haven't they.
Because you talk about how sport has been a learning
environment but also almost a refuge for those things that
have gone down in your life. When that's then stripped
away by how many knee recos? Have you had three
(51:22):
knee recos? When it's stripped away, what kind of told
does that take on you? Mentally?
Speaker 1 (51:27):
Sport has been my place of belonging. It was a
bit of a showy or black magic stole netballer and footballer,
but that was what I knew and understood, and that
was where I was happiest. So I did my first
knee when I was twenty one, playing netball for reconstruction.
Twelve months out rehabbed, it came back fitter than I'd
(51:48):
ever been in the game. The tragedy happened with Nandrea
the following season. Then I started playing football and I
just remember it was a wet weather game, jumped up, slipped,
did my miniscus so and it was a bucket tear so,
which means your little cushioning between your bottom of your
leg and the top of your leg in your knee
(52:08):
joint folded in half and it locked my knee. So
that's called a bucket tear. It's just it stuck. So
I needed surgery and stitching, which was season ending again.
And I did my next knee just before the AFLW
season the year before it was due to be announced
to start.
Speaker 2 (52:26):
Which was that's your dream, that's what you wanted to
do since you really hit and didn't exist as an
actual thing.
Speaker 1 (52:32):
Yes, and it's I was able to play football at
my best throughout those those years prior to AFLW. When
I got to AFLW, I never fully felt right and
I never was able to be the best footballer I
could be. Probably shouldn't have even played season one. I
(52:53):
managed to get through that, but I think that was
just through reputation alone. Had my knee reconstructed, not that
I reruptured it, but I had that reconstructed again, came back.
The arthritis was getting worse in my left knee and
had my right one reconstructed, got delisted, came across the Carlton,
(53:14):
managed to get my body okay, so I was at
a good playing weight. My knee was at its worst.
So I'd get home from training, I'd barely be able
to walk out of the car. Some trainings, I'd barely
be able to walk into training, and it was just excruciating.
But mentally it impacted me because I knew what I
(53:35):
was capable of doing. Once physically, I think I played
three games with them trying to get back in the team.
I don't know if you know who Jess Edwards is,
but she was one of our best athletes and running
so fast, high speed running and everything else. Anyways, I
grabbed her GPS and I put mine in hers, and
she no, And I said, can you say, justin Kazitski story,
(53:59):
I was running a was okay, and she was hitting
tens with high speed running, whereas I was just kind
of pacing and timing everything. So it was obvious on
data got through that session, four trainers would walk past me,
walked straight to Jed's and said, are you okay? She
was okay because I'd known that I'd swapped the GPS's
(54:20):
and they're like, oh, yours must be broken, Caby, and
I was like, oh, what the fun I'm like, Jesus Christ,
you can't even just give me a break. Anyways, I
didn't get another game from that, but I think that's
where I knew. I knew that I was. I was
kind of done, but I didn't I didn't accept it mentally.
It's I've played sport my entire life, and when I say,
(54:44):
that's the only place that I felt like I belonged,
and that was truly truly the case. So I think
early on in our conversation, I didn't know. Sometimes I
don't know where I belong or if I do belong,
just in life in general, or if in people's lives
or where I sit with things. So it's taken me
three years after trying to run around with Hawthorne in
(55:05):
the freezing cold in Victoria trying to play VFL, I
just couldn't do it. But mentally hurt or it felt
like a breakup. It was just it was devastating and
I didn't know how to cope with it. I stopped
watching footy, I stopped being involved in football. I hated
sitting around like w girls who would talk about football.
(55:26):
But I didn't voice it, but I just hated it.
From a physical point of view. It wasn't my decision.
And I think that's where a lot of athletes struggle
when it's either season ending or career ending, which is
not in your control. When you can control things, you
can kind of mentally and emotionally prepare, and I just
I wasn't prepared for it.
Speaker 2 (55:47):
How much did that impact your mental health?
Speaker 1 (55:49):
Oh, heavily. I don't think I realized what it was doing.
I would find myself just sitting at home and not
feeling motivated like i've I felt lost. I didn't know
where I needed or had to be. I didn't know
how to feel better if I had a conversation about playing.
(56:09):
I was always trying to think, how could I make
my knee feel better so I can actually just run
because I can't run anymore because it's just the physical
pain itself. So I think I did dip into a
a stated depression. It was something that I've found really
hard to accept. Your knee.
Speaker 2 (56:29):
You were telling me the cult doctor, what did he
say about your knee?
Speaker 1 (56:34):
It's one of the worst he's ever seen in anyone
with arthritis, and that's old people included. So a lot
of athletes have just arthritis in general just from load itself.
But because I'd done my first ACO when I was
twenty one, and the buckets hair a couple of years later,
it was pretty well wearing out and fast.
Speaker 2 (56:56):
What does that mean for the rest of your life?
Speaker 1 (56:58):
At some stage need and they replacement if I was,
if I was in my fifties, I would have that.
Now it's tolerable to walk on, but it's it used
to be bad. It used to wake me up. Yep.
I'd wake up thinking about playing, and you'd wake up heartbroken.
It's such a bizarre feeling.
Speaker 2 (57:17):
You dream about playing, Oh.
Speaker 1 (57:19):
It would be so vivid, and I'd wake up with
that excitement of it, but the reality of it wasn't there.
And this happened for a couple of years after I stopped.
It did take me a while to accept and not
to necessarily get over it, but more accept it and
own that for me to then make a decision how
(57:41):
I want to stay involved in the game. But so
I want to be a part of that change, because
as you see in the nineties, football. You see, when
a lot of our a black fellows start playing, they
changed the way that we played football, which means the
game plans have to change. Your coaching has to be
challenged because you've got to also canterrac that. So then
the game kind of shifts in a skillful manner. That's
(58:04):
what we want for AFOW Our girls bring that spark,
which then changes the way we play, which changes the
way girls think, which helps growth.
Speaker 2 (58:14):
I spoke to Carl Antonio, now former Freo captain but
still playing one of your best mates. She said that
you're still the best footy player she's ever played with
or against. And as a person, you're the strongest friend
she's got.
Speaker 1 (58:34):
She's a beautiful girl. I love juddy.
Speaker 2 (58:41):
She's pretty bloody tough herself. To have that description, the
strongest friend she's got, does that mean something?
Speaker 1 (58:50):
Yeah, she's I know if I pick up the phone,
doesn't matter how long we go without speaking. I know
that she's that rock. And there's very few I could
probably say there'd be three people in my life that
I know would be that for me, and she's Yeah,
(59:13):
she's definitely one of those. She's an exceptional person. There's yeah,
there's very few people in this world that I that
I would do anything for, and she's one of them.
Speaker 2 (59:23):
My final question, do you ever have vulnerable moments where
you just you are so bloody strong and even as
you talk through all of this, I can see how
much you responsibility you put on your own shoulders to
represent and to be honest, And do you have moments
where you just allow yourself to feel however and whatever
(59:44):
you need to feel.
Speaker 1 (59:46):
I don't know why. I've just always held back, Like
even just even hearing you say that from Juddy, that
chokes me up. So that's that's not something that I've
that I hear often. But yeah, you you know, and
(01:00:08):
you expect them to know too. But it's also it's
so important that they hear that too. Yeah, but I don't.
I try not to be so vulnerable with myself, but
I can be. I can share with you what I
know and feel. That doesn't mean that that it doesn't
(01:00:31):
hurt me or upset me or make me feel a
certain wave. Yeah, because there has been times, probably the
first time that I've spoken about it and felt those
emotions and feel that coming up. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
Yeah, what are you scared of No, I'm not scared
of scared of anything. It's just I don't like feeling
upset or hurt. And you know that they're they are
emotions that are there and they're real because that's what's
(01:01:07):
changed you, that's what's impacted you, and that's what it is.
So I know that those feelings are there, and I
know that that's where they sit in and amongst whatever
story it is. But yeah, I don't know, I just
that's just how it is.
Speaker 2 (01:01:26):
Protection mode.
Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
Yeah, yeah, I think maybe.
Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
I appreciate your vulnerability and your honesty because I know
it doesn't sit comfortably with you, but it does help people.
I know it's going to help people, and you know,
whether it's you know, young indigenous girls or boys, or
people like me understanding better because as you said right
off the top, it's only three conversations like this that
(01:01:57):
we can try to comprehend and understand each other. So
I really appreciate it. Is there anything else you want
to add?
Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
That was awesome? Anytime?
Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (01:02:12):
Thanks for everything, as thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:02:17):
Time, Thanks for listening to this episode of Ordinarily Speaking,
which is also the final episode for season three. Thanks
to all of my guests and their families for allowing
their stories to be told. And thanks of course to
you for tuning in and getting in touch. If you
like the podcast, please tell your mates and share it
(01:02:37):
on your socials tag at ordinarily underscore Speaking on Instagram
and at narrowly underscore Meadows on Twitter. Thanks again, want me.
Speaker 1 (01:03:02):
Because I'm competrating the fire and the food.
Speaker 3 (01:03:08):
Send me that you
Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
Want me go
Aboriginal Enta stradi under listeners or advised. This episode contains
stories of someone who is deceased, including the use of
their name. Ordinarily speaking, we walk in one world, but
in my view, I think we walk in three. Your world,
(00:21):
our world, and my worlds on time.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Hello and welcome to this episode of Ordinarily Speaking, I'm
Narrowly Meadows. Kirby Bentley is a genuine trailblazer the West.
Dozzie started her sporting career in netball before making the
transition to the newly formed AFLW for filling a lifelong dream.
Now thirty five, she's recently been appointed as the senior
(00:58):
coach of the Western Bulldogs vfl W side, the first
Indigenous woman to hold such a role. Kirby wants to
use her standing to help change the narrative and empower
young girls challenging gender norms along the way, the memory
and strength of her Auntie Andrea with her every step
of the way. I ask you to listen to this
(01:20):
episode with an open heart as we discuss some uncomfortable truths.
Sharing stories helps us understand each other better, and Kirby
has an incredible story to tell. Please know this episode
contains a graphic conversation around violence. If it's triggering, there
is help out there. One eight hundred, Respect Beyond Blue,
(01:41):
dot org dot AU or Lifeline one three double one
one four are just a couple of places you can go.
We caught up in Melbourne just before the WA border reopened.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
I hope you enjoyed the chat.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Kervy, thank you so much for doing this. I really
appreciate it. Tell me what it means to you to
be a NOMA woman.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Well, I'm proud first of all. So growing up in Australia,
in Western Australian, in Country Australia, in Country w A especially,
it was always hard, hard in the sense of racism
and discrimination. So for me to be an Aboriginal and
to be proud is a powerful thing. So, you know,
(02:46):
First Nations and one of the oldest living cultures in
the world is huge and it's undervalued. I think.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Tell me about what it was like growing up.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
So yeah, country country is really black and white and
it feels like it's still set in the seventies. So
if you look at a lot of our country families,
their farmers and they tend to stay there. And it's
the generation that takes over the next and that flow
on effect and we learn what our elders teach us.
(03:20):
So if my mum and dad taught me to show disrespect,
then that's how I would be to anyone and everyone,
because that's what I know and understand. So if they
teach me to be respectful or to show courtesy or
loyalty or whatever that looks like, and then that's the
same thing. So in my head, from my experiences, a
(03:42):
lot of those people who are still in the country
that I grew up with, their generation above them and
above that have all stayed there and have all been
told and learned the same thing. So when you hear
racist comments or anything derogatory or discriminate, it's yeah, it's
come or stem from that.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
I think. Did you hear that growing up?
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Yep? Yep. I think the first time I heard it,
there were two of my cousins which I call my
cousins but were not blood related. But there were few
Aboriginal people in our town, but it was just that
it was Aboriginal and white people and they were in
the school yard. This is primary school, so I would
have been maybe year four or five, not very old,
(04:26):
and my best friends. They were all white and all
boys as well, and I remember watching my two cousins
scuffle with two white boys and two of my best
friends I've known since three four started using the word
bung and kone l like I don't worry about the colonel,
And it shocked me because I'd never heard it from
their mouth in my life. And as I said before,
(04:48):
the first time hearing that that's obviously come from their parents,
and that's a hard thing, I guess to hear from anyone.
But I remember snapping my head at them and just saying,
what the hell, like, why are you saying that? I'm
not you, just them. That's obviously they're categorizing us as
aboriginals are this, and that's their perception in a negative way,
(05:10):
so of course it's going to be offensive. And that
was probably the first time. And I remember going home to
Mum and Dad and saying the same thing, and they
just said, make sure you tell them that that's not okay.
So and I'm glad that I pulled them up on
that day. But I've never heard them say it ever again.
That's not to say that they've never used that language
ever again, but yeah, they've never used it in front
of me again.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Do you remember how that moment made you feel?
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Yeah, Well, like I was a pretty naive young kid.
This is probably put it into perspective. I thought Australia
was the world. I thought that the accents on TV
American asient whatever accents I didn't understand. I thought that
was all for TV. So that's how naive I was.
(05:54):
So yeah, when that was said to me, knowing that
I've grown up with these boys, like these are my kids,
where we've grown up forever together, and to hear that
is just, yeah, you don't really want to feel like
that shame about your own culture, because that's all I understood.
(06:15):
So I knew that I was Aboriginal, but I didn't
know what that meant, if that makes any sense. So
for me to say that I'm proud to be who
I am now, it's because I now understand what our
culture is and who I am and where that bloodline
flows on from.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
You talk about shame and you talk about pride. How
long did it take to make that transition from one
to the other.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
I think my whole childhood in regards to growing up
in Mount Barker, it was really hard to not feel
the shame factor and trying to show how proud you
are of who you are and who your family and
your bloodlines are because the perception and you go to
school and you're outnumbered. So most times in my year,
(07:05):
I was probably the only original person. Another two years older,
there was another cousin, and then my sisters were two
years younger and two years younger again, so there weren't
many of us all the time, but when there were
there were still we were still way out numbered to
be able to fight that battle or to know how
to as well.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
When did you get to a point where you went, Yeah,
I'm proud and I'm here and I'm unapologetic.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
So it's funny you asked. I was voted in his
head Girl, which is random because I was a tomboy
at school and I was friends with everyone. I thought
I was friends with everyone and got along and I
was cheeky, So I guess that's how that vote kind
of came in because I was able to bring people together.
All of my school friends, as I said, they were farmers,
so they had money in ours, they had money. We
(07:54):
didn't really have money. So Mum had this red falcon
ex I think it was called and it broke down.
So we had a prefect meeting and there were twelve
of us, and all of my school friends had all
these flash cars, and I just remember our car not
starting and I was in the passenger seat and I
slid down in a physical act, and it was my
(08:17):
dad blew up at me. So it was Dad took
me down to the school and he said, don't you
ever do that ever again. Don't ever feel like you
have to be shame about anything. This is what we
have and this is what it is. And it was
probably from that moment that I then realized that if
I had New Balance and somebody had nikes on it,
it was only because that was what we were able
(08:40):
to have. So I think I started to shift the
way that I thought about things. Then. Obviously you're young
and you're immature, and you don't fully grasp it, but
I think that was probably the turning point. If I
reflect on it, you were just.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Ahead of your time. Because New Balance is big now.
Steve Smith brought it back in a big how much
does it drive you representation?
Speaker 1 (09:04):
It's huge because it's still it's still so it's happening
so much in today's world and we're in two thousand
and twenty two. So when you look at it, like
even from a sexism stance, female and male and the
equality of that, even that's a fair bit behind. And
when it comes to being our Aboriginal in Australia, our
(09:26):
battles are still what they are. They're a little more
spoken about and people are a little bit more educated,
but not fully and to be able to have those open,
honest conversations in regards to just creating a conversation, not
knowing what is offensive and what isn't, we're still not
able to do that. That's huge for change and for
(09:48):
growth and for moving forward for both Aboriginals and Australians
in general. Regardless of what your bloodline is, So even
if you're an Asian Australia or Chinese Australian or a
French Australian, whatever that is so for me that's invaluable,
but that's still a long way away. So do you like.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
People coming up and asking the uncomfortable questions?
Speaker 1 (10:11):
So yeah, I would prefer that any day. I would
prefer them to say I don't know how to ask this,
but this is what I want to understand. And I
would either correct them and to say, yes, this is
offensive because of this, and I'd explain it because it's
important that they understand why it is so. Abbo and
kone and all those words are offensive because it was
(10:32):
used in a derogative way that we that were trying
to offend us or put us in a certain box
and make us feel small. When somebody, for example, has
brought up why can't we say abbo because we shorten everything.
That's an ouzzy thing to do, but not a part
of our history in culture and creating that change, that's
(10:53):
not okay. So explaining that and for people to hear
that and then share that with other people they're having
conversations with when Aboriginals aren't around is a very important
thing and impactful.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
You mentioned before sexism and being a woman, and in
so many industries that still exists when those two crossover,
and you are an indigenous woman, how challenging has it
been for you?
Speaker 1 (11:20):
If we look on a scale, I guess of where
people sit, So we've got the white male at the top,
and then probably the white female, and then every other
culture kind of fits in the middle, and then the
Aboriginal woman is at the bottom. So when we look
at anything to do with our health or help or
(11:42):
our needs and what it is that we need for
us to be better in our lives. In families, we
hold the responsibility of making sure everything stays together. So
we're the glue where everything and our matriarch, they're the
ones we always go to, but they're the ones that
always copy it and take all all the brunt of things. So,
as an Aboriginal woman in Australia and as a woman
(12:04):
in general, so we would have the same battles and
challenges in regards to our workplace, but then it'll be
on a different level when it comes to something else.
So if an opportunity comes up, you're more than likely
to get that step forward because it's easier for them
to help you than it is to help me.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
How tough is that to live with and not overcome
but work through? Knowing that those are the kind of
challenges that you're confronted by every day.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Well, yeah, it's definitely difficult. That sense of belonging that
I never really feel like I have, if that makes sense.
So if you go into a workplace, you're going in guarded.
So it's kind of like when we walk down a street,
just as a woman in general, we walk down the
street at night time, We've just got to be aware
(12:51):
of our surroundings, look around. That's just trying to put
that into perspective. When you go into any workplace, you
kind of have to know one under stand what that person, who,
that is, where they fit with you, and trying to
figure out how you fit with them to then know
what kind of guard you hold up and what you
let down to then know that it's going to be
(13:13):
okay or I've got to be careful here.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Is it rare to feel safe? And I don't mean
safe necessarily in a physical sense, but just feeling, like
you say, belonging accepted.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Yeah, yeah, yes, I think so. Bulldogs is probably the
first time I've genuinely felt like I do belong in
the sense that I'm well supported and they believe in
my ability and what I bring. And that's from a
football stance, but that's obviously empowering as an Aboriginal person,
but also as an Aboriginal woman.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
The analogy that I use for sort of what you
described about, you know, being a woman and walking down
the street and stuff like that. The footy analogy is
we talk about perceived pressure and pressure raps, and it's
not necessarily the actual statistics, but the corralling and the
you know, feeling under pressure, and that makes it draws
you into the mistake or the error. And that's kind
of for me how it feels when other people don't
(14:07):
necessarily see it happening, but you feel it happening to yourself.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Yeah, one hundred percent, like you know straight away. And
women can see it as well, and they can sense
like we've got a pretty good intuition naturally as women,
because we're always having to be two steps ahead. And
I explained this at work. So I was in construction
tunneling doing some rigging work, only female worker amongst all
(14:32):
one hundred men, and a superintendent was talking to me, Oh,
how do you find it? And everything else is said.
I feel like I'm always having to do everything well
above and beyond what is supposed to be done, because
the one time that I don't do it quite right,
I don't belong here. But men can kind of not
(14:55):
do it nine times out of ten, and that one
time they get it right. Yeah, yeah, they've got the job.
They're good for this role. And it's such a different
perception and world to live in. But that's the reality
of it. And he never ever thought of that because
obviously he has he's not a woman, and he's never
been in those shoes because he's always had opportunities given.
(15:16):
He's either said yes, I am capable, even if he's not,
and he's gone and done it and then learn just
off the cuff of it. So for us, we don't
really say yes unless we know that we can do
more than And it's a really interesting way of looking
at it, but that's us keeping ourselves safe.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Tell me a little bit about your parents and what
they were like.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
They were, Yeah, they were good. So Mum and Dad
both always they always said to me, kids have to
stay in a kids place. And I think that's why
I was so naive. I thought, obviously Astoria was the world,
so that that wasn't true. So I was able to
live and have that fun outside style of living in
a country, so playing football, doing whatever that looks like.
(16:01):
So I wasn't really allowed to be around adults. Bedtime
was always at seven, home and away. If they were
kissing or anything on there, I wasn't allowed to watch it.
It was just it was crazy and I was back
and you kind of go, what was going on there?
Kids are watching worse Now.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
I wasn't allowed to watch over and away, but.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
It must have been the generation of them and they
must have all talked about it too, So I don't
think most of us were allowed to because they did that,
and for me being naive, I was experiencing things for
the first time and only being educated when I needed
to know. So I was twelve when I first got
my period, so before that I didn't even know that
(16:41):
even happens.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
So when I used to do karate, I went up
to Perth for a grading, so Dad always drove me
up because I've got two younger sisters so that always
stay in Mount Barker to go to school. So Dad
would drive up four hours. This time I remember it happening.
I thought something was wrong with me. I said to Dad,
I said, something's wrong. We need to go to the hospital.
And he didn't know how to have the conversation with
(17:05):
me because Aboriginal men don't really that's not their area,
so they just wears mum. So Mum wasn't with us,
so nan I remember her sitting on the bed and
I was laying because I was a tomboy nickname was Billy,
and I had no idea what the hell was going
on with me, So hands behind my head, like pretty
(17:27):
pissed off about it, and it's going what the hell?
And Nan was trying to explain, you know when you
become a young woman, and I was like, I don't
want to be that pissed ohole, Like I was so angry,
and then when it left, I was like, oh, it's done,
so just one time. Two weeks later, I had a
netball kind of the same thing in Perth, but it
was worse. But I also wasn't prepared for it, so
(17:49):
it was probably it was the most embarrassing thing, but
most unspoken thing. On top of having women like female
coaches and older players around me and not being able
to pull me aside and help me understand that, I
was kind of left alone with it. And as embarrassing
as it was for me, I could see people looking
(18:10):
on reflection, I could see people looking at me, and
it was on a need to know basis, so I
only need to know about my period when it happened.
So sometimes staying in a kid's place was very beneficial
not understanding you know, some of the things that happen
in adult lives, but in those circumstances, yeah, you need
(18:31):
to know those things. So it was good in that
sense that they did keep me in a kid's place,
But yeah, I wish that they were one step ahead
and educating and the reasons why and so we can
ask questions and not feel that shame factor, because yeah,
I just didn't know what was going on. So even
without rest, I was remember standing in the shower trying
(18:53):
to push him back in because I wanted to play
afl with the West Coast Eagles, So I just didn't
know what was happening. Yeah, I'm trying to explain it,
and I think I was selective hearing and just I'll
still Adam and I was going to play football for
with Ben Cousins and we're a punda.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
So I mean that in itself is it's so telling
of how much has changed in the last few years
now that there is AFLW and you end up playing
in the afl W as well, but also gender identity
and all of those things. And we've seen, you know,
Darcy Vessio recently come out as non binary, and that
(19:31):
sounds like it was a really challenging time or confusing
time in your life.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Is that fair? Yeah? Well, so I'm a visual person
and if I don't see different, I don't understand it.
It wasn't until I was in Perth again, but I
was playing no shirt on hat backwards as Billy the kid,
football in hand all day with these two brothers kicking
and everything else. So Kirby is not exactly Charlotte, so
(19:56):
it's not noticeable that I'm a girl either, and I
look like a act like a boy. End of the day,
we're drinking around the side of the house and one
of the brothers. I don't know, boys can probably explain
this or men or why they would do this, but
one of the brothers pulled open their shorts and showed
me their little peanuts and same age, and I leaned
over and I was shocked. I was like, what the fuck?
(20:18):
What is that? What is happening? They're like and the
other brother did it, and they're like Charles Joel's curb,
and I just started feeling because I was I was
probably like eight or nine, and I was like, I
don't have one, and I just remember grabbing my shirt
because the mom came, what are you boys doing? Like?
Go back outside and play? And I remember tacking my
shirt on, walking back all confused and looking at Dad
(20:40):
and they're looking at Mum and then watching the foot
he was on that night as well, and just really
tripping out what's going on? I knew that I was
a girl, I just didn't know what that looked like
from a visual point.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
How do you feel about gender now?
Speaker 1 (20:55):
It is what it is. If people feel a certain
way and they want to be who they were to
be or who they feel they are, then that's who
they are. You can't argue with that. I can't change
who you are. And it's just like it's like anything else.
Why should you.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Netball champion, footy gun now, footy coach, first Indigenous woman
to be a senior coach of a VFL or VFLW team.
What is sport represented to you throughout your life?
Speaker 1 (21:27):
I think sports what has kept me together. So I
had not broken English, but because I didn't understand the
school system and what it is that I needed to
learn and understand. It wasn't until like I played in
my first state team and it was bringing Bianco Franklin
to original girls and blackfellows you always want to kind
(21:47):
of draw to, and they're like my big sisters, So
I've always seen him in that way and they've always
looked at me in that way as well, which is
a powerful thing, and it's a great thing as a
young original girl and a younger girl coming from Mount
Baker to step into a team that has that. But
I think in my first two state teams, because it
pretty much stayed the same players for those two years,
(22:09):
I don't think I ever spoke, and because I didn't
really know how to use a knife and fork, I
just do the old fork, stab into the food and
just smash it down as quick as I could because
I could because I wanted to go and play or whatever.
So I actually didn't know how to use utensils. As
small as it is. It was so significant when we
went out to dinner because I'd never been to a
restaurant before that, and before that, I'd never been to
(22:31):
an airport, let alone being on the plane. So my
first trials had just rewinder. Second, I remember seeing there
were two hundred girls and at the end there was
Phase one and there was a cart. One hundred girls
were cart and Phase two and another cart. Then phase
three it said team selection and then camera. So at
list this is showing me age once again driving home
(22:53):
four hours and so oh dad wears camera because when
we get home, looking the outlets. So the first thing
I did walked in the house, put my bags down,
pulled out this old Atlas book and was looking for
camber in wa searching for ages, and I said Dad,
I said I can't find it, and he goes, it's
over here. I was like, do we have to get
a plane and he goes, yeah, he goes. So I
(23:13):
started training my ass off because I wanted to go
on airplane. I didn't give a shit about what team up.
I didn't even know what I was trayling for, to
be honest. So I got selected and I was handed
this black and gold dress. So I was trailing for
State seventeens as a fourteen year old, no idea. It's
my whole family, my nan, my pop, Arnie's uncle's cousins.
I pretty much sat on half of the little theater
(23:35):
room that we're in, and then just mums and dads
of all the all the other girls. So yeah, I
got given this dress and gone on a plane and
flew to Canberra, and that was it. So learning about
knives and forks and speaking properly. The only reason I
started to speak the way that I speak and I
do what I do is because I've watched David Rupunda
(23:56):
and the way that he speaks and his stories and
using words in the right context for me to then understand, Oh,
that's what that means or this is how it should
have should sound, not like this. So I was learning
from that to then know how to interact. So two
years playing State with these girls, I started to use
(24:18):
similar language to what they would use because it was
private school girl and correct English. So that's the only
reason why I was able to speak the way I
speak and do what I do. And that's the only
reason why I am the way that I am and
I speak the way I speak. Now, so you can
get me to do any kind of work on the
internet or study, I just I won't know how to
(24:38):
do it, but I'd figure it out, but only because
I'd go and ask a thousand questions to people to
either show me or walk me through it. As an
Aboriginal woman in netball and then transitioning into football, I
need our girls and like white or whoever to understand
that we're not all the same and we do understand
(24:58):
things differently. And sometimes it's not that we don't want to,
sometimes we don't know how to, and it's just breaking
those barriers and understanding that our worlds are different. So
some girls don't come to training, it's not because they
don't want to, and it's not because they can't. It's
(25:19):
because there's something that just happened that they need to
make sure that is in place.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
First, do you know how powerful you are and your
voice is you talk about David Wode partner and stuff
like that. If you had listened to someone like you
at that age as a twelve year old listening to
a thirty five year old be as open and honest
as your being right now, how impactful would that have been.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
For you as a twelve year old girl. Oh, it's huge.
Because we're not taught to talk about a hardships. We're
not taught to talk about or go talk about anything
that has affected us in not necessarily a negative way,
but or even a growth way. But it's not allowed
to talk about it. We could talk about being proud
about things, but if it's say that our dad hit
(26:05):
mum last night. You can't say that you yelled at
or we don't have washing powder, we don't have money,
We're just not You don't talk about those things because
it's a shame factor, not on yourself but just from
a family perspective. But we're trying to shift perspectives too,
but we can't shift it unless people are open to it.
(26:26):
So can't I can't tell you that I don't have
any money because what I grew up to understand is
the perception is they don't think we have money. We
probably don't, but it's more saying this is why, or
this is this is where I fall down in this space.
Can you please help me? Those conversations haven't really been allowed.
(26:47):
If somebody had shared those things openly and I'd heard
that as a young Aboriginal woman, an end or man
or boy or whatever, you'd feel more inclined to then
know who they those people are that you can then
talk to because end of the day, your white friends
have a lot more influence and change than you do.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Let's hope that changes.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
But yeah, I can do as much as I as
much as I do, and I can have those conversations
around the dinner table, at breakfast with friends at footy clubs.
I can have those conversations, but unless we then go
to our homes. So there's thirty girls at Bulldogs and
they all go to their homes and then their brothers
(27:30):
and sisters then go to their friend's place. That's how
it expands. But if it just stays there with them,
that's as far as it gets.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
You need me to have the conversation as well.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Yeah, I need to continue it, to challenge it, educate yourself.
But I don't know everything about us and who we
are as a culture. But if I don't know, I'll
find it out and I'll own that too, because there's
a lot that I don't know, and vice versa. There's
a lot that I don't understand that you don't know either.
So unless we talk, we're walking in silence pretty much.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
You're listening to ordinarily speaking with Kirby Bentley, your mum.
You spoke a little bit about her, but what she
likes as a person, what she brings you up up.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
She is one of the strongest women. You always get
asked who's your role model as an athlete? It's never
been another athlete, or it's never been another superstar. It's
always been her, and I don't think she understands the
depth of her who she is and what she's done
to make me the woman I am, and how invaluable
(28:41):
and how valuable that has been. So her loyalty kind
of gets her stuck with people and it annoys me.
She's always kind and wants to help people first and
has always done that and has always been forgiving, but
at her detriment as a daughter. Now, I'll tell my
real age as a thirty five year old, you don't
(29:01):
want it. You don't want to see your mum in
that position, so I get really protective of it. But
growing up, she taught me the values that I that
I stand for and the way that I am, so loyalty, honesty, respect, integrity.
They're very key values and a lot of companies use
those values, but she's just done them instinctively. So she's
(29:23):
just Yeah, she's a good woman.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Massive smile on your Faceally and her sister, Andrea, your auntie,
tell me about her and what kind of person she
was to you.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Mum's sister was five years younger. Bubbly would yarn about
everything and call a spade a spade. In the most innocent,
funniest way, but it would just lighten the mood. But yeah,
be able to get somebody to own or be accountable
for something as well. So she was such a beautiful woman,
and I knew her up until I was twenty one.
(29:59):
But I'm sad that I didn't know her well as
an adult. So I love her and loved her unconditionally.
But yeah, you can't really live off regret. See that
an Andrew would call every week a few times, a
few times a week, and she had thirteen kids, so
they wanted to make sure that we knew them and
(30:21):
they knew us, and their relationship was a very, very
powerful bond.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
The day that you lost your auntie, which I realized
when we were sitting down to do this, was it's
the anniversary this week. So I'm really sorry because I
can't imagine anniversaries are particularly tough. No matter how many
years go by, what do you remember from that time?
Speaker 1 (30:48):
So that day, all significant things that have happened. I've
almost remembered everything that's happened in that day. So I
remember and Andrew going through this situation with her partner.
She had left him six months earlier. Restraining order in
place he'd breached it. There'd been a machete left on
(31:10):
letters saying I love Andrea Louise Pickett all and it
was just back in front of six pages written handwritten
on top of her diaries which he'd found, and he'd
left them in the house and basically left as a threat. Definitely,
definitely but ane. Andrea, another auntie and her two daughters
(31:32):
were at the house and when they came out to
get in the car with the evidence of what was
left there, he was at the restraining order distance, so
literally one hundred and fifty one meters standing there looking
at the house, looking at my aunties and cousins, leaving
as a threat. So he was in reach then. And
(31:56):
when and Andrew had made the complaint or report that
he'd breached the restraining order previously, it was disregarded, and
a time before that was also disregarded. So went to
the police station with the machete, the diaries, everything else,
and they were crying like Anandre knew in her in
her gut. She said it to us, she wrote it
(32:17):
in the diaries, that he's going to kill her some
way or another. And he said it to mum and
we tried as a family to put everything in place
to make sure that that wasn't going to happen. So
when they went to the police that day with the
machetes and the diaries and put it on and explained everything.
The moment Anandrea and my other Arnie went and sat
(32:39):
down or like literally turned around, they grabbed the machete
and just kind of playing swords with it, which is
like obviously a neglect of their role as policemen. So
they didn't take it seriously, which was found in the
court cases. And I think from that moment, I remember
(33:00):
her sitting with Mum crying and said, he's going to
kill me, and when he does, I need you to
take my babies and look after them. So I remember
Mum just saying yep, she goes, I will, but nothing's
going to happen. So the couple days later, and Andrea
(33:22):
went and stayed with the Arnie she was with that
her house, so a different house. My sister was with
Andrew that night and my other auntie and a cousin,
so they were walking from the house because he had
made another threat. That walked from the house down mirror
Booker av which is maybe a fifteen minute walk to
(33:43):
get to where they were going. So there was a
McDonald's at the end of two traffic lights, and he'd
come over and I really don't know how where he
came from and how he even knew where they were,
but he'd came over the hill, run at An Andrea,
my sister, and my cousins and threatened her. Then my
(34:03):
sister had her phone called triple zero. As calm as
she was, she was scared as all hell, but we
naturally were protective in nature, so she was also on
the defensive while making the phone call, trying to pull
Annie Andrea back, but throwing a bottle at him and
just saying triple zero. Kenneth Charles Pickett has a restraining
(34:28):
order against Andrea Luise Pickett. He's now threatened her and
us with a knife. He said he's going to kill her,
and he because the phone call was on, he'd taken
off again ran to the car. By the time he
got to the car, my auntie and cousins have all
just run back to the house. And he'd already been
at the house and cut the brake lines of all
(34:49):
the cars in the driveway and in the yard. So
this has happened in one week, within days of each other,
and the next day move locations again. So I went
to my Aunie's brother's house in North Beach and I
went to I was playing West Coast Fever at the time.
So that day I went to training. One of my teammates,
(35:09):
I was becoming a detective, and I said to Mama,
I said, I'll talk to Hell's I'll ask her what
we can do. So when we're getting to training, we
had we had a beat test, we had testing everything.
I just remember it being such a solid session and
running the beat test and doing court work and who
was running next to it was so vivid. So I
get home, it was late, it was maybe eleven o'clock.
(35:32):
Mum was on the phone to Annie Andrea that night,
so she was talking. Sounded good. Ani Andrew's on speaker,
like a walk in the door. Mum says, However, I
was training, how'd you go with your testing? And Annie
Andrew asking the same question, and I was like, I
think you should come over. I kept pressing it because
I had a shower and she's still on the phone,
so that are you going to come over and just
(35:54):
come and stay with us. You can sleep in my
sleep in my bed. I'll sleep on the couch or
whatever she does. No, no, no, it's okay. Uncle Dennis
is here, you know, Aunties and another uncle. So they
were were surrounded by adults and people. So from a
family perspective, we put in place what we thought would help.
(36:15):
But from him, from the attacker, he was just so
cunning and so patient, and everything was planned and premeditated.
But because he was such a coward and gutless, he
was so sly about it. Obviously we never saw what
(36:35):
was coming. So Mama had got off the phone, probably
about eleven forty pm, and I couldn't sleep in my room.
I was just something was just spinning in my head.
And I remember getting out. All the lights were still on,
and Mum and Dad were outside, and I went in
laid in like there was a spare room with a
single bed. It was just random full moon still night
(36:56):
blinds were up, and it was just before Mum walked
in the room. I sat up and I just remember
looking outside and just feeling off. It was such a
bizarre feeling. And I've always had these gut feelings when
things have happened, like significant things and Mum. As I
looked back, Mum and opened the door, flowing of tears,
(37:18):
and she said, Annie, Andrew's just being attacked. I was like,
what do you mean, what do you mean? She's been attacked?
She's been attacked, And her tears were saying what happened.
Her mouth was saying what she wanted to feel like
was happening. So I knew she was attacked, but she
wanted to be the extent that she knew in her
(37:40):
gut for what she heard on the phone calls. So
as soon as Mum left, I got them all up
and we followed. So when we got there, there were
four police cars and flagging off everything, and it was
a hot summer's night. Mum especially tried to run through
the barriers and the flagging because it was on the
(38:00):
side of the road and we you know, we could see,
we could see everything. So he'd found out where we
stayed by one of the older daughters, and one of
the older daughters drove him to this house and there
was an apartment block behind like my uncle's place. And
when you stand in front of a fence and there's
light shining from the back of the fence over to
(38:22):
the house. When you look at that building, you can't
you can see just shadow. So because he was standing
on the inside of the fence in the shadow, in
all black, we couldn't see him. No one could see him.
He'd jumped through the back window and it was stealth like.
It was so quick. He'd got in and out stabbed
(38:43):
the uncle that was in bed in the neck and
in the chest. By then, this uncle had yelled out,
he's here, he's here, and the three armies had run
out the front, but he was already at the front.
And Andrew had her second youngest base in her arms,
and he had already started attacking her or nicking her,
(39:05):
so she dropped her and he'd kept committing the attack.
So he had a machete and he knew what he
wanted to do. There were a few hundred nicks, and
then there were obviously stab wounds on top of that.
But that was his one thing that he went there
to do, and he did it. So yeah, one of
(39:28):
the arnies witnessed it. You can't really defend against someone
like that because he was there to kill. He was
there for no other reason. And if you were in
the way, you were also a part of that, So
that attack happened within ten minutes phone call shot to mum.
He'd already jumped that back fence, and in the end
(39:49):
we found out that he went and got dropped off
where he was staying with his brother in a suburb across.
So Bowga washed his clothes, put the knives on the
lawn sink, had to shower, and just sat there and
watched TV like nothing happened. So we were pressing the
police to find Canaya. We thought he had taken her,
(40:13):
and that was the only reason why they were extra
alarmed because it was a child. Now in this so
Danny Andrews is now laying on the bitchumen on the
road or the curb passed away, and now they're starting
to look because cana is missing. Two hours later found
her hiding inside behind the couch, drenched in sweat because
(40:34):
she's obviously in fear. She would have been three years old,
witnessed this whole scenario and have Yeah, he's just in
complete shock at this stage. There were helicopters and everything else,
but couldn't find him. That actually literally couldn't locate him.
He ended up driving with his family to the courthouse
(40:55):
because he thought that our family were going to attack
him before that. That was the only the police didn't
find him. The police didn't go and pick him up
and or visit that place for the severity and the
reports that an Andrea had made and that we had
made as families, Yeah, they just not at any stage
(41:17):
did they take it serious. And throughout the court findings,
the yeah, it was pretty noticeable. And that goes for police,
child support, refugees, everything.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Am I right in saying your auntie's case actually prompted
internal investigations and change in the way that they handled things.
They acknowledged publicly and apologized publicly.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Yes, yes, so, yes, the police had owned their wrongdoing
or acknowledged it. Four corners did their investigation and found
the same thing. But so one of the comments from
a cop like you lot always make this complaint and
then you always go back, so what's the point? And
that that was a comment, and that was throughout the
court cases. If you read back through the transcript, that's
(42:03):
what you'll see. Like, it's so disappointing because we're not
all the same. You and I are the same, We
can make the same decisions and same mistakes consistently but
it doesn't mean we're the same and we're in the
same circumstance or situation, or we can be in the
same circumstance situation, but you can make a different decision
and leave, but I can stay. And that was how
(42:24):
they were treating it all the average and women just
you just stay there, so it doesn't matter. But Annie
Andrewa never left him, and the one time she did,
she made that decision and that was final. So when
she left, she left, and when she put the restraining
order on, that was held there and then it was
(42:44):
revisited and then reissued. When you look at her case,
there was no reason why she shouldn't shouldn't have been
protected or believed or supported.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
Do you remember how you felt when you turned up
at their house that day and saw the scene in
front of you?
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Oh? Yeah, Like I was in shock, but I went
into not protective mode. But I was so aware of
Mum that I couldn't see anything else. So I just
remember following her around because I knew that like that
(43:24):
had changed all of us. And I always say I'm lucky,
like I've still got my sister's and I've still got
my mom and dad, So I'm lucky, but to see
that and to see my mom the way that she was,
that was probably the most heartbreaking experience at that time
that I've ever felt. So I don't think we slept
(43:45):
for nearly two and a half days. She didn't sleep,
I didn't sleep. I followed her through the backyard and
she's just gone and dropped on the grass, and I
didn't know how to help her. So she's dropped to
her knees and she's broke down and that. Yeah, I
don't know if I could just walk past me and
said I'll look after it. But yeah, I just remember
(44:08):
this feeling so broken.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
H that is such a lot to live through.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
It. Yeah, I don't know how I would. I don't
know how I would do it if I was if
that was my mum and dad, and I don't know
how I'll do it if it was my sister's. You know,
if you think about it, you just, yeah, it's just
(44:47):
such a if you Yeah, if you really, if you
really think, how people can get through that. I don't know.
I don't know, because it was, Yeah, that was hard
(45:08):
to watch. It was hard to live in.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
How has it changed your life?
Speaker 1 (45:18):
So when I so in the country we'll go back to,
just to put it into perspective. So I started playing
netball representing WA. I was with the Orioles squad, which
is West Coast fever since I was sixteen to year eleven.
(45:40):
I'd moved up in year eleven and twelve, and netball
was such a huge commitment with little monetary rewards. So
when I say little, I mean like we might get
fifty dollars to fly into state and play a national
ag game. If we make the court, we might get
one hundred dollars, If we play a whole game, might
get one hundred and fifty. So it was you literally
(46:01):
did it for the love of it, but the commitment
was massive. So at one stage I was so overly
I would say committed, but I think selfish. I was
going to sew so many of these training sessions morning
and afternoon after school, and having two younger sisters, I
lost that relationship with them, but without realizing, and when
(46:25):
I say without realizing, at that time, I didn't care
because of who I was at as a person and
what I understood. So I wanted to play for Australia
and it was about me training and everything else. So
It was probably literally until that night that I then
appreciated that I had sisters and I was the oldest,
(46:49):
and I saw the way that Mum was broken, and
I could see the way it affected my nan and
uncle Gary, so their brother, and I just didn't want that.
I didn't want that for us. I was twenty four,
and it was literally the week later I just started
making phone calls to my sisters and just trying to
(47:10):
establish or rebuild a relationship as adults, because we knew
each other as little kids. And I left like when
I was sixteen, so middle sister was just a teenager
and I didn't really live back home again. So that
was probably the biggest life changing or the turning point
in regards to valuing them and appreciating Mum and Dad
(47:33):
and time time with people. So I started to spend
time with people who wanted to spend time with me.
Annie Andrea asked Mum to take her seven babies, and
that's exactly from her values loyalty and integrity, and she
said she would, and she tried to do her absolute best.
(47:55):
But when you go through an experience like that, and
this is from the lens of a daughter who still
has her mum and still has her sisters. She was
in her darkest world and trying to be present as
an auntie and a mother figure while dealing with her.
(48:17):
I would say deep depression at the time, because you
can't not be depressed or heartbroken. And I believe in
real heartbreak, as in a genuine heart tear, because she
looked broken. There's no other way to describe it, and
I've never seen someone like that.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
Can you ever recover from a heartbreak a heart tear?
Speaker 1 (48:42):
I don't think you. No, I don't think you ever recover.
It's like crack glass. You can kind of glut back together,
but it will always still have its cracks in it.
There's not a day that I don't go without thinking
about the loved ones that have left this world. So
I can only imagine that it would be a couple
of times a day for her and f roun kle Garian.
(49:05):
My Nan was around when Mum hurt. She hurt and
it was deep, but she didn't know how to cope
with that or deal with it because talking or communicating
or sharing feelings wasn't something that we were familiar with.
So I understand the only reason I know how to
communicate differently is because of sport.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
How's your mum doing? Now?
Speaker 1 (49:28):
She's good, she's better, but it has taken since two
thousand and nine. She will never be full again or
complete again.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
Given everything that you've taken on and now you're over
in Victoria and even in the pandemic and the challenge
that that provides of you know, we haven't been able
to get back to wa or certainly not easily. How
tough has it been on you.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
You always know when you need to put your feet
back on country. It's for some people who don't understand
it's a bizarre concept to need to do that. But
I think I need to go home, even as for
a second, I just I need to get home. There's yeah,
you're stuck. There's no way of Actually you get on
(50:19):
a plane and then you're isolate. But we know as
adults we've got to also then provide an income and
everything else. So you go over for fourteen days and
you're stuck in a place that you don't really need
to be in because you just need to hug your
mum and put your feet back in your country and
just be grounded, just to rejuvenate or just to fill
(50:43):
the battery back up. But it's just yeah, it's been challenging. Yeah,
you'd say the same.
Speaker 2 (50:51):
It's going to be nice to get back home.
Speaker 1 (50:52):
Oh, I can't wait. I can't wait.
Speaker 2 (50:57):
I've taken up so much of your time.
Speaker 1 (50:59):
I know that.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
I did want to ask you about the injuries, because
they've had a big impact on your life, haven't they.
Because you talk about how sport has been a learning
environment but also almost a refuge for those things that
have gone down in your life. When that's then stripped
away by how many knee recos? Have you had three
(51:22):
knee recos? When it's stripped away, what kind of told
does that take on you? Mentally?
Speaker 1 (51:27):
Sport has been my place of belonging. It was a
bit of a showy or black magic stole netballer and footballer,
but that was what I knew and understood, and that
was where I was happiest. So I did my first
knee when I was twenty one, playing netball for reconstruction.
Twelve months out rehabbed, it came back fitter than I'd
(51:48):
ever been in the game. The tragedy happened with Nandrea
the following season. Then I started playing football and I
just remember it was a wet weather game, jumped up, slipped,
did my miniscus so and it was a bucket tear so,
which means your little cushioning between your bottom of your
leg and the top of your leg in your knee
(52:08):
joint folded in half and it locked my knee. So
that's called a bucket tear. It's just it stuck. So
I needed surgery and stitching, which was season ending again.
And I did my next knee just before the AFLW
season the year before it was due to be announced
to start.
Speaker 2 (52:26):
Which was that's your dream, that's what you wanted to
do since you really hit and didn't exist as an
actual thing.
Speaker 1 (52:32):
Yes, and it's I was able to play football at
my best throughout those those years prior to AFLW. When
I got to AFLW, I never fully felt right and
I never was able to be the best footballer I
could be. Probably shouldn't have even played season one. I
(52:53):
managed to get through that, but I think that was
just through reputation alone. Had my knee reconstructed, not that
I reruptured it, but I had that reconstructed again, came back.
The arthritis was getting worse in my left knee and
had my right one reconstructed, got delisted, came across the Carlton,
(53:14):
managed to get my body okay, so I was at
a good playing weight. My knee was at its worst.
So I'd get home from training, I'd barely be able
to walk out of the car. Some trainings, I'd barely
be able to walk into training, and it was just excruciating.
But mentally it impacted me because I knew what I
(53:35):
was capable of doing. Once physically, I think I played
three games with them trying to get back in the team.
I don't know if you know who Jess Edwards is,
but she was one of our best athletes and running
so fast, high speed running and everything else. Anyways, I
grabbed her GPS and I put mine in hers, and
she no, And I said, can you say, justin Kazitski story,
(53:59):
I was running a was okay, and she was hitting
tens with high speed running, whereas I was just kind
of pacing and timing everything. So it was obvious on
data got through that session, four trainers would walk past me,
walked straight to Jed's and said, are you okay? She
was okay because I'd known that I'd swapped the GPS's
(54:20):
and they're like, oh, yours must be broken, Caby, and
I was like, oh, what the fun I'm like, Jesus Christ,
you can't even just give me a break. Anyways, I
didn't get another game from that, but I think that's
where I knew. I knew that I was. I was
kind of done, but I didn't I didn't accept it mentally.
It's I've played sport my entire life, and when I say,
(54:44):
that's the only place that I felt like I belonged,
and that was truly truly the case. So I think
early on in our conversation, I didn't know. Sometimes I
don't know where I belong or if I do belong,
just in life in general, or if in people's lives
or where I sit with things. So it's taken me
three years after trying to run around with Hawthorne in
(55:05):
the freezing cold in Victoria trying to play VFL, I
just couldn't do it. But mentally hurt or it felt
like a breakup. It was just it was devastating and
I didn't know how to cope with it. I stopped
watching footy, I stopped being involved in football. I hated
sitting around like w girls who would talk about football.
(55:26):
But I didn't voice it, but I just hated it.
From a physical point of view. It wasn't my decision.
And I think that's where a lot of athletes struggle
when it's either season ending or career ending, which is
not in your control. When you can control things, you
can kind of mentally and emotionally prepare, and I just
I wasn't prepared for it.
Speaker 2 (55:47):
How much did that impact your mental health?
Speaker 1 (55:49):
Oh, heavily. I don't think I realized what it was doing.
I would find myself just sitting at home and not
feeling motivated like i've I felt lost. I didn't know
where I needed or had to be. I didn't know
how to feel better if I had a conversation about playing.
(56:09):
I was always trying to think, how could I make
my knee feel better so I can actually just run
because I can't run anymore because it's just the physical
pain itself. So I think I did dip into a
a stated depression. It was something that I've found really
hard to accept. Your knee.
Speaker 2 (56:29):
You were telling me the cult doctor, what did he
say about your knee?
Speaker 1 (56:34):
It's one of the worst he's ever seen in anyone
with arthritis, and that's old people included. So a lot
of athletes have just arthritis in general just from load itself.
But because I'd done my first ACO when I was
twenty one, and the buckets hair a couple of years later,
it was pretty well wearing out and fast.
Speaker 2 (56:56):
What does that mean for the rest of your life?
Speaker 1 (56:58):
At some stage need and they replacement if I was,
if I was in my fifties, I would have that.
Now it's tolerable to walk on, but it's it used
to be bad. It used to wake me up. Yep.
I'd wake up thinking about playing, and you'd wake up heartbroken.
It's such a bizarre feeling.
Speaker 2 (57:17):
You dream about playing, Oh.
Speaker 1 (57:19):
It would be so vivid, and I'd wake up with
that excitement of it, but the reality of it wasn't there.
And this happened for a couple of years after I stopped.
It did take me a while to accept and not
to necessarily get over it, but more accept it and
own that for me to then make a decision how
(57:41):
I want to stay involved in the game. But so
I want to be a part of that change, because
as you see in the nineties, football. You see, when
a lot of our a black fellows start playing, they
changed the way that we played football, which means the
game plans have to change. Your coaching has to be
challenged because you've got to also canterrac that. So then
the game kind of shifts in a skillful manner. That's
(58:04):
what we want for AFOW Our girls bring that spark,
which then changes the way we play, which changes the
way girls think, which helps growth.
Speaker 2 (58:14):
I spoke to Carl Antonio, now former Freo captain but
still playing one of your best mates. She said that
you're still the best footy player she's ever played with
or against. And as a person, you're the strongest friend
she's got.
Speaker 1 (58:34):
She's a beautiful girl. I love juddy.
Speaker 2 (58:41):
She's pretty bloody tough herself. To have that description, the
strongest friend she's got, does that mean something?
Speaker 1 (58:50):
Yeah, she's I know if I pick up the phone,
doesn't matter how long we go without speaking. I know
that she's that rock. And there's very few I could
probably say there'd be three people in my life that
I know would be that for me, and she's Yeah,
(59:13):
she's definitely one of those. She's an exceptional person. There's yeah,
there's very few people in this world that I that
I would do anything for, and she's one of them.
Speaker 2 (59:23):
My final question, do you ever have vulnerable moments where
you just you are so bloody strong and even as
you talk through all of this, I can see how
much you responsibility you put on your own shoulders to
represent and to be honest, And do you have moments
where you just allow yourself to feel however and whatever
(59:44):
you need to feel.
Speaker 1 (59:46):
I don't know why. I've just always held back, Like
even just even hearing you say that from Juddy, that
chokes me up. So that's that's not something that I've
that I hear often. But yeah, you you know, and
(01:00:08):
you expect them to know too. But it's also it's
so important that they hear that too. Yeah, but I don't.
I try not to be so vulnerable with myself, but
I can be. I can share with you what I
know and feel. That doesn't mean that that it doesn't
(01:00:31):
hurt me or upset me or make me feel a
certain wave. Yeah, because there has been times, probably the
first time that I've spoken about it and felt those
emotions and feel that coming up. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
Yeah, what are you scared of No, I'm not scared
of scared of anything. It's just I don't like feeling
upset or hurt. And you know that they're they are
emotions that are there and they're real because that's what's
(01:01:07):
changed you, that's what's impacted you, and that's what it is.
So I know that those feelings are there, and I
know that that's where they sit in and amongst whatever
story it is. But yeah, I don't know, I just
that's just how it is.
Speaker 2 (01:01:26):
Protection mode.
Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
Yeah, yeah, I think maybe.
Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
I appreciate your vulnerability and your honesty because I know
it doesn't sit comfortably with you, but it does help people.
I know it's going to help people, and you know,
whether it's you know, young indigenous girls or boys, or
people like me understanding better because as you said right
off the top, it's only three conversations like this that
(01:01:57):
we can try to comprehend and understand each other. So
I really appreciate it. Is there anything else you want
to add?
Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
That was awesome? Anytime?
Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (01:02:12):
Thanks for everything, as thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:02:17):
Time, Thanks for listening to this episode of Ordinarily Speaking,
which is also the final episode for season three. Thanks
to all of my guests and their families for allowing
their stories to be told. And thanks of course to
you for tuning in and getting in touch. If you
like the podcast, please tell your mates and share it
(01:02:37):
on your socials tag at ordinarily underscore Speaking on Instagram
and at narrowly underscore Meadows on Twitter. Thanks again, want me.
Speaker 1 (01:03:02):
Because I'm competrating the fire and the food.
Speaker 3 (01:03:08):
Send me that you
Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
Want me go
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