Zac Williams - Ordineroli Speaking

#OrdineroliSpeaking Zac Williams has become an AFL star after growing up in country NSW. The former GWS Giant and now Carlton recruit has overcome a lot of adversity in his life. He lost his Dad at a very young age and got caught up in the wrong kind of scene as an adolescent. Under the guidance of his Mum and older sister, Zac managed to turn his life around and now - at 26 - he has found his voice as a proud Indigenous man.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Ordinarily Speaking. I've always been a proud Indigenous man, but
now it's time to speak upon time.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello and welcome to Ordinarily Speaking, a podcast that celebrates
resilience in sport. I'm narrowly Meadows. Today's guest is AFL
star Zach Williams. The former GWS Giant and now Carlton recruit,
has overcome plenty of adversity in his life. Zach grew
up in a small town in New South Wales, raised

(00:48):
by his mum and big sister after they lost his
dad at a very young age. Last year, Zach made
the call to leave Sydney and moved to Melbourne to
join the team he supported as a kid, Carlton. It
was a lucrative deal that created plenty of headlines, but
behind the scenes, his family was going through heartache. This

(01:09):
is a story of a young man who says he
owes everything to two strong women in his life, and
now at twenty six, Zach has found his voice as
a proud Indigenous man. If this chat is triggering for you,
please ask for help. Lifeline and Beyond Blue are just
a couple of places you can go. I hope you

(01:29):
enjoy the chat.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
Well.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
Zaki thanks so much for spending some time with me.
Tell me about the country town you grew up in,
because we're talking proper country country town, are we.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
Yeah, thanks for having me on you. But yeah, so
full country on the river. I think I was not
too short that the population is now, but when I was,
there was about two thousand people. When I graduated year
twelve at my local high school. There was only I
think just around maybe less than thirty kids, maybe thirty
kids in my year twelve class, so it was a

(02:14):
very small party for us after we graduated. But yeah,
I grew up in a Rendra. It's very close to
eating where a few of the other boys I played
football with over my time. I'm from as well, and
we'll get area if people know where that is. But yeah,
I'm being I was up in Sydney for nine years
and now at you. Sorry, now I'm down in Melbourne.

Speaker 2 (02:35):
So tell me about your indigenous heritage.

Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah, so I'm a gradery man from obviously country as
well as like I just said, you know, growing up
indigenous in Dungea, it was a very I guess divided community.
There was a bit of racism, but you know, I
didn't really take too much notice to that sort of
growing up, you used to it and he just brushes
off you pretty quickly. But then once I got into

(03:01):
the I guess AFL and sort of saw it on
a national scale. And now they're a bit more mature,
sort of hits a lot more now when I think
back to my time living and growing up in our indra, So,
you know, I was tough at times. You know, my
mum is the Aboriginal liaison at the Narranger High School,
so at the local high school there, so she, you know,

(03:23):
obviously has a lot of connections with all the families
Indigenous families back home, so which a lot of my
family as well, a lot of cousins and stuff like
that back home. But you know, I was tough growing
up in a you know, very fifty to fifty indigenous
non indigenous community, so there was a lot of conflict,
a lot of disagreements with people's and but you know,

(03:45):
now that I'm a bit older and hopefully I can
go back home and help out the community and maybe
do some stuff, some community work back home and around
the region to get the awareness out and try and
stamp out racism.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
What do you know now, that when you reflect, you
think differently upon now.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
I guess maybe just taking notice of the little slight
racism comments or little actions that people do, whether they're
knowingly doing it or not. I think back when I
was growing up, I didn't take notice. It, Like I said,
just washes off you pretty quickly and you're like, oh,
that was a bit racist or whatever, and then you
just get on with your day or whatever. But now

(04:25):
that I'm a bit older, and if I hear something
in the news or you know, there was my teammate now,
Eddie Betts has obviously gone through a lot of that stuff.
So even stuff with him and other Indigenous boys in
the AFL, or when I'm talking to mum about what's
going on in the community. You know, there's little things
that are just hit me a lot harder, I guess,
and make me take more notice about racism back home.

Speaker 2 (04:48):
How does it make you feel when you feel like
something's racist and it's coming at you.

Speaker 1 (04:53):
Yeah, I guess first initial reactions, I get angry about
it and a bit frustrated, but it's just turning to more.
It's sad really, like that it's twenty twenty one and
there's still a lot of bad racism in Australia, and
you know, small country towns, obviously it hits a lot,
a lot harder because it's my home country town where

(05:14):
I grew up. And obviously it's hard to stamp about
racism and everyone's got to be on the same page
and be educated enough to be on the same page.
But it's just it's really sad to be honest, Like,
you know, my nieces she's only eight years old and
she's already caught racism where she's in Aubury. So if
a little eight year old girls coping racism, then bloody ell,

(05:36):
you know we haven't. We've gone nowhere over the last
fifty odds, so you use that. You know, we've actually
become part of the referendum Indigenous people. So it's just sad.
It makes me upset more than you know, you want
to be angry about it and everything, but you know,
if I get angry about it, then I'm no better
than the people that are given out the racism. So
they're auditioning it out. So I just I just feel

(05:59):
sad to be honest, and hopefully over the next few years,
while I've sort of you know, on the afhold stage
and I'm playing down Melbourne. I can sort of do
a bit more for my community.

Speaker 2 (06:09):
What did your niece cop?

Speaker 1 (06:12):
So they were watching I'm not too sure what the
movie was, but my sister rang me one day. I'm
just absolutely human and furious. They were watching a movie,
you know, about the Stolen Generation. I think it was
one day in class and you know, one of her
classmates actually just said, oh right, you should be on
TV with you know, like go back to where you're
from and all that kind of stuff. So for young kids,

(06:35):
she's only seven, eight years old. For young kids already
know that by that age, it's it's quite disappointing to
be honest. And like I said before, you know, my
teammate goes through through a lot of that as well.
Now in Eddie Bett's like he's copped. It's pretty well
well documented that he cops a fair bit on the
national stage. And you know that's two different ages. Like

(06:55):
there's Eddie who's you know, thirty odd and in his
back end of his career, and then I got my
young niece who's eight years old, who's competent at school,
and you know, these it's not the kids felt that
this young kid. Don't even know what they're really talking about.
You know, they're probably just saying it, you know, just
to try and get on my niece's nerves or you know,
trying to do something just to make her angry. But

(07:16):
you know, it's just sad that it's happening to young
kids like this.

Speaker 2 (07:20):
When you first get the call from your sister about that,
how do you feel in that moment.

Speaker 1 (07:24):
Oh, you know, obviously I'm not her parent, but I'm
her uncle, and it makes me want to drive down
to the school and you know, say what I need
to say to the school. But obviously platforms like this
your podcast and talking about it when an Indigenous Round
comes around, or whether I'm doing interviews and I need
to speak up on things, it's really important because it's

(07:47):
obviously still a massive issue in the nation that racism
is still around. And you know, but I don't think
people realize how much it actually affects not just the families,
but everyone, like the whole Indigenous community when people be racist.
So's just sad. But you know, people just need to
be educated and they want to have to learn, like
they don't want to learn. Then it just shows how

(08:07):
much of arrogance. They got to want to not learn
about the history of Australia.

Speaker 2 (08:11):
I guess what do you say to your niece? Do
you talk to her about it?

Speaker 1 (08:15):
Yeah, well, she gets very self conscious about because she's
fairly dark skin, very she's quite a ten young girl,
so a lot of people know she's Indigenous just from
the color of her skin. And then she starts getting
self conscious about the color of her skin. And I
just try and reinforce her that she's beautiful with her skin,
like she shouldn't shy away from being who she is

(08:37):
and being proud of being Indigenous. And you know, she's
still quite young, so it's good that she's sort of
learning to, you know, be comfortable in her skin and
be comfortable with her culture. And like I said, it's
just sad that's someone that young's got to cop it,
you know what I mean. So it is quite I
get quite furious about it, but it's more just sorry

(09:00):
for people that have to go through it. Like and
it's obviously personal to me because it's my little Nicks
And she comes home crying and upset, and you know,
my sister keeps her home from school the next day
just because she's worried about going to school. But you know,
my sister's pretty good at She's a strong black woman,
so she's pretty good at reinforcing her children that just

(09:22):
don't worry about what other people say. Obviously, you need
to speak up for yourself. And it's hard to tell
and that your old kid. Sort of the circumstances and
how serious it is that racism is still a thing,
So it's pretty hard.

Speaker 2 (09:34):
It's so heartbreaking here, isn't it in twenty twenty one
that we're having this conversation.

Speaker 1 (09:39):
Yeah, it's like you said, it's twenty twenty one and
it's still a massive issue unless people like Eddie Bett's
or Adam Good's bring it up. It's sort of it
just seems like sometimes it gets swept under the carpet.
And in the AFL there's a massive, massive range of
multicultural people in the game now and indigenous people. So
I think that fella doing a good job at the

(10:02):
moment of educating and doing as much as I can
to get multiculture and indigenous people's educate people on their cultures.
But there's always more that people can do. Obviously, if
there's stuff going on back with my local town with
my niece and stuff like that. So there's always more
work to do. But yeah, it's just sad that it's
still a massive issue.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
You bring up Adam Goods, how did that impact you
at the time, because you were a young footy player
trying to make your own way in the game and
then this situation arises. How did it make you feel
watching a champion of the game go through what he
went through as a young Indigenous man yourself.

Speaker 1 (10:43):
Yeah, so I think I was maybe my third year
in so I was still trying to find my feed.
I wasn't playing regularly in the AFL team, you know,
I was still trying to find my way. I guess
in terms of like being a football player. You know,
I grew up always knowing that I was Indigenous, and
I was like proud of being Indigenous, and you know,
like I said, racism back where I was from, it

(11:04):
sort of just brushed off you. So when I come
into the AFOL system, I didn't realize actually how serious
it was and how bad it actually was around the
whole nation when it all come out with Goodsy and
he was going through all that stuff, and I guess,
like you said, I was still a young bloke still
trying to find my way, So I didn't speak up
or anything, which I'm disappointed myself about. But I know

(11:26):
I was still young. But in these circumstances, doesn't matter
a young or how old you are, you always your
opinion matters on this, on this kind of stuff. So
when I think back on it and about it, and
I'm disappointed I didn't speak up, But at the same
time it was sort of all a big shock to
me as well. But if I had my time again,
I definitely if something like that happened again, then I'd
definitely be one of the first to speak up and

(11:48):
come forward and stick up from you know, my fellow
teammate or you know, if happened to one of the
boys and AFL, I will definitely be first first one
up to stand.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
Up when he was treated the way that he was
and essentially booed out of the game. When you go
home at night and think about that at the time,
does it impact your self image? Does it? You know
what the country is telling you.

Speaker 1 (12:14):
Yeah, it's just it's a bit of a hard one
because at the time I didn't really I was never
taking notice of the booze. I was taking. I was
actually taking notice of goods he playing because I knew
that he was back into his career. Growing up, he
was one of my idols in football, so I've always
just taking interest in watching him play football because I
love studying AFL, I love you know, I love studying

(12:36):
other players, and you know, I love watching goods he played.
So I didn't really take notice of the booze or
anything like that until I saw it on the news
or saw it in the documentary a few years later,
and just to see the way he was treated. He
will go down one of the greatest players of the game, like,
hands down, no matter what other players come in and

(12:57):
do from now on, he will go down as one
of the greatest players ever, Like he was an absolute gun.
And for him to get treated like that and not
even do the Grand Final drive around and be sent
off the way you deserve to be sent off, it's
just I think it's very sad for him and his
family obviously, but for someone like me, I'd look at

(13:18):
that and I get so upset that someone like I
know Goodsy fairly well from my time up in Sydney,
so to see him go through that, and it just
makes me feel sad as well. So I hope down
the track that the AFL do something for him, whether
it's they put up a statue for him, or get
him get him to a Grand Final to do a lap,

(13:39):
or do something for him because he deserves it, because
the way he was treated was just disgraceful.

Speaker 2 (13:44):
To be honest, Am I right in saying that the
Indigenous boys all got together and had a conversation about
it a year or two later and what was how
it was handled and how you all felt about it?

Speaker 1 (13:58):
Yes, so I think it might have even been a
year after Goodsy retired that Yeah, you know, all the
older boys like shawny Berger and Abets, Michael Walter's, all
these boys stood up at the camp and said, you know,
it's not good enough from a player's point of view,
Indigenous players point of view, that we didn't stand up
and make our voice heard and didn't have his back enough.

(14:19):
Because I guess that was a perfect opportunity for Indigenous
players to all come together and make a statement, try
and stamp out racism and look after Goodsy. If we'd
done that, it might have turned out a lot differently
than what it could have than what it actually did. Sorry,
So yeah, there was a few conversations after it all happened.
But like I said, I was still a young young
fellow at the time, So.

Speaker 2 (14:38):
What impact does that have on you as a young bloke?
Was that a pretty profound conversation to have witnessed.

Speaker 1 (14:43):
It was a very confronting conversation, but it was also
at the same time it gave me the confidence to
be able to speak up and have my opinion on
these issues, because on these issues, my opinion is never
wrong because I know that my opinion is quite similar
to Eddie Betsa's opinion and all the indigenous players in

(15:05):
the competition, we all have the same opinions, so we
all speak up and which I think over the last
few years a lot of boys have is so powerful
when we all do that together. And it was a
perfect opportunity to do that with the whole Goodsy scenario
and what happened. But yeah, we just probably didn't do
quite enough, I don't think.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
Because it's your lived experience.

Speaker 1 (15:26):
Yeah exactly. Like I'm sure it's not only just I'm
sure a lot of the other boys probably feel the
same way as I do, that they're disappointing themselves that
they didn't stick up for a brother in the AFL
competition and in the nation. So because if we've done that,
I'm sure a lot of things would have been different.

Speaker 2 (15:46):
What's the best thing about being an Indigenous man?

Speaker 1 (15:50):
Best thing probably having skinny, quick legs.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
To be honest, you were going to say family.

Speaker 1 (16:00):
Well, obviously, but like everyone says family, and everyone knows that.
You know, you grew up over in Wa, so I'm
sure you know that all the Indigenous firms are quite close.
The communities are, whether they're related or not. The Indigenous
people always support each other no matter what in the
indigenous community. So whether you're family or you're an Indigenous

(16:21):
person and you know that Indigenous person over there, you
know that you're going to have their back no matter what.
And I think the Indigenous cultures, it's obviously built on
family and that that side of culture.

Speaker 2 (16:32):
But those skinny legs.

Speaker 1 (16:33):
Those skinny legs, And the thing is, I think probably
most Indigenous people have the quick skinny legs too, So
I'm pretty sure a lot of the other boys would
be happy with their legs. I reckon, I love it.

Speaker 2 (16:47):
Have you embraced culture more as you've gotten older.

Speaker 1 (16:50):
Yes, that's a That's one thing that I'm definitely trying
to work on at the moment and get more knowledge
about when I'm from my tribe, even other tribes. Like
I live with Bobby Hill for a year and even
asking him questions about where he's from. And you know,

(17:10):
he's very close with his family as well, so you know,
even when his mum would come over, I would ask
her questions about where they're from. And it's the working
progress because growing up, I never really I knew I
was indigenous, and I was proud of that. I'd tell
everyone I was Indigenous and I'm a black man and whatever.
But in terms of getting into the culture side of things,
I never really, I guess, got into that. Yeah, I'd

(17:34):
never quite embraced it. And now over the last couple
of years, now that I've matured and you know, I've
had some things going on in my life over the
past couple of years, I felt like I'd need a
bit of that spiritual cultural awareness, I guess to make
my life and my well being a lot better. And
I think it's important for everyone to go down that

(17:54):
path where they're indigenous and not indigenous multicultural to go
down that spiritual path and you know, you find out
about yourself a lot more.

Speaker 2 (18:02):
What have you learned that you've you've embraced.

Speaker 1 (18:05):
Just the history, you know, my I've caught up on
obviously last year in the COVID breakout, I'd caught up
on zoom calls with like two or three times as
my cousin, and just learned about past and you know,
the I guess, the tragedies that have happened around my community.
It's quite shocking, to be honest, like what I've learned

(18:28):
about my local community and the way Indigenous people were
treated like around my area back back in the day.
But you know that's not just my area. There's a
lot of other communities that have gone through all of
that as well, and probably it's probably it's definitely happening
to this day in local communities that Indigenous people are
getting treated unfairly. So yeah, just learning the history, I guess.

(18:49):
So when I when I can speak about this stuff,
I know what I'm talking about, and I talk with
a bit of passion when I talk about it too,
because I know the history. That's why I think it's
important for everyone to learn and educate themselves on the
history of Australia, because it's shocking, it's very bad. But
you learn about it, you move on, you have a discussions,

(19:10):
you talk about it, acknowledge it, acknowledge it, and then
everyone heals from there and everyone can get along from there.
But until people want to do that, then all we
can do is just learn about our history.

Speaker 2 (19:24):
Tell me about your pop. He was alive around the
Stolen Generation each, how did that impact his life?

Speaker 1 (19:34):
Yeah, well, look, I haven't talked too much about that
with him too much, but there's definitely something that I
want to and probably need to get in touch with
him about a lot more. But yeah, he was a
young feller and you know he used to run away
from the police or the people whoever it was that
used to come and collect the kids, and you know,
you'd have to run away and hide and then come

(19:55):
back home when he could when they'd leave. So if
you met him now, you wouldn't really you would and
tell that he's been through all that. Obviously he's an
old man now, he's just a fun, caring black man
and you actually wouldn't even think that he had been
through that, just with how happy he is with his
life and you know, loves coming over tom Mum's place
of just randomly showing up, not even telling us and

(20:17):
showing up, and yeah, to have someone that's been through
all that, it's probably something Percy I need to tap
into and learn about a lot more. Like I said,
if I'm more educated on this stuff, then I can
go to other people in the community and talk to
them about Oh this actually this is personal for me
because he's actually happened to my pop.

Speaker 2 (20:36):
The level of fear that he and his parents must
have been living.

Speaker 1 (20:39):
Yeah, yeah, well even the fear of these days of
being racially realified is it's scary. So I can't imagine
what they would have went through back then, going through
Is there people going to come to my house and
take me away from my family? Like, I can't imagine
that absolute fear that he would have through and other

(21:02):
families as well for that matter. Like there was a
lot of a lot of kids taken. And that's one
of the things in Australi's history that people they acknowledge it,
but they I feel like they don't know enough about it.
They haven't learned enough about it. Yep, they acknowledged it,
but you know the scars it's left for a lot
of people. It's still traumatizing.

Speaker 2 (21:24):
You do a lot of work with Indigenous youth these days,
don't you tell me a little bit about that.

Speaker 1 (21:29):
Yeah, Up in Sydney I used to do. Like Western
Sydney is quite a big population of multiculture and Indigenous people.
So down here in Melbourne, I haven't really got me
bearings yet. But once I get sorted and stuff like that,
I've want to start up a community sort of academy
back home, whether that's in ner Andro, Wagga Aubrey, just

(21:51):
to help kids. You know, firstly, I want to help
the Indigenous kids about the same time, whether it's kids
that are struggling regardless whether they can come in and
get some help and find their way as well. Because
there's not a lot of growing up. There's not a
lot of opportunity in country New South Wales, in these
towns unless you know, you have to move away to
get noticed. If you want to play sport or play football,

(22:13):
you have to go to a boarding school and come
down to Melbourne, or go to Sydney or go to
Canberra for these opportunities. But on a startup something where
if there's a gun football in football or in Riindra,
he doesn't have to be taken away from his family
or has to leave his family to go try and
make the AFL football. Like, I want there to be

(22:33):
someone in Wogat for these kids and whether it's helping
him at school or helping him with sport or anything.
I want to start up a community academy or something
like that where just encourages kids to ask for helping
they know they got the help there to succeed in life.

Speaker 2 (22:52):
Because I feel like the two things that are coming
across most strongly from you talking about it and you
speak with such passion, which is amazing. One having people
like me acknowledge the pain and the history, but two
for having Indigenous people be proud Yeah yeah, of who

(23:14):
you are and what you stand for and where you
come from. Is that a fair summary?

Speaker 1 (23:19):
I guess yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of you know,
Indigenous people are shy people. You know you might not
see that you might see because you're watching football and
you see a lot of the Indigenous boys just absolutely
turn it on on TV and you think, oh wow.
But then when the cameras are not on, there's a
lot of shy boys that are afraid to speak up,
whether it's you know, they haven't really the same case

(23:42):
as me. Like growing up, I didn't know enough culturally
and the about the history, and so it's hard to
speak up when you don't really know these things. But yeah,
if you're proud and you want to learn your culture,
then that's what I'm passionate about, Like just learning. If
you learn about these things, it's not harming anyone, Like
you're you're doing better for yourself. And if you get

(24:05):
caught in the circumstance of whether there's racism or anything
like that, you're strong enough and your willingness to be
able to speak up on these things just goes to
a whole another level. And that's why one of my
favorite people ever, and even if I didn't know him
is Eddie Best, because he's so strong on this stuff
and he's been through so much, but he still keeps

(24:28):
speaking up about it because he knows that it's his
job to educate other people about this. And you know,
he's even educated me. He wants me to speak up
and talk about these things. So like, not even just
non indigenous people, it's everyone's got to acknowledge what's happened
and learn about it and then be strong enough to
talk about it.

Speaker 2 (24:48):
Tell me the first time he came across Eddie Betts.

Speaker 1 (24:51):
I think it might have been my first ever Indigenous
camp in Alice Springs. I think I was eighteen or nineteen,
my first, first or second year, I can't really remember,
but yeah, that was my first time meeting pretty much
all of the boys that I looked up to watching footage.

Speaker 2 (25:08):
So I was you're the biggest smelling Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:10):
Yeah, just because now that I never really thought like
I had to think about it too much, but you know,
it was the first time I saw Buddy was there,
Goods he was there, Lindsey Thomas was there, trav Varco
was there, like it was just all these older boys
I used to watch and they all played in Grand
finals at the time, like when I was growing up.
So I was like, holy ship, Like I'm actually sharing.

(25:33):
It's crazy. I know it's crazy because Travor I've roomed
with Trevor Varco and I don't even know if he
remembers this, but he I think he was coming off
a Grand Final with Geelong a few years prior, and
I was just like like I'm brooming with Holy shit,
I'm rooming with him right now. Like, but just to
see these boys up. No, I wasn't like that. I

(25:57):
was definitely not like that. I wasn't. Yeah, but Eddie
obviously I would grow up going for Coulton, and that's
when Eddie was kicking amazing goals and killing it for Coulton.
So to see Eddie like it was once in a
lifetime thing for me. I was just like shit like,
because I didn't know I was going to end up
a Culton. So when I was there, I was like, shit, like,

(26:18):
I'll better take this in because I don't know what
I'm going to see him again, you know what I mean.
And then yeah, I was just having to finally be
down here and play for Colon. Then he's bed teammates.
It's crazy, it's so crazy, so crazy.

Speaker 2 (26:31):
It's fair to say he tried to recruit you last
year too.

Speaker 1 (26:35):
Yeah. You know, during the game, like I was playing
on Zach Fisher, I was playing half back at the time,
and me and Zaki Fisher would be up and Eddie
would be standing behind me and I'd just hear Eddie
chirping and I'd be like what's he what's he saying?
I'll turn around. He's like, yeah, I'm talking to you,
like I better see you next year. I'm like, Eddie,
I'm trying to focus on playing and beating you guys here.

(26:55):
Don't talk to me like. But you know, it's all
fun and games. And he's always he's I've never seen
him not happy, Edie. He's always got a big smile
on his face. And you know, I'm actually stoked on
his teammate. And you know, I think it's pretty well
documented from the cult media that I think they went
to my school teacher when I was in high school

(27:16):
or no, back in primary school maybe I can't remember.
And I was kicking a football by myself or something,
just waiting for class or something to start, and I
was talking about Eddie Betts kicking me to the football
and I'd get it and I would kick a goal
and I'd be in a Grand Final. And you know,
so hopefully that's all true. Hopefully I have the next
well this year, I don't know how a lot much
longer Edie will play, but you know, if we make

(27:37):
it this year, Eddie, you better give me that handball,
mate and kick a win and go in the Grand Final.
But it's just it's so surreal meeting people like that,
not only from the football people like you know, like
I said before, the culture. So I think too, like
he's someone him and goods of people that I look
up to, and I want to be like when I'm

(27:57):
at the end of my career, I want to look
back in my career and be like, Yeah, I spoke up,
I've done this. I've done that for my indigenous culture,
and I helped a lot of kids out coming through
and I helped a lot of other people speak up
as well. So you know, if I can get to
that stage of where they are, I'm going the right
way in life.

Speaker 2 (28:15):
Really, you mentioned it before that Eddie's obviously copped a lot,
particularly on social media over the years. Have you copped
that sort of stuff?

Speaker 1 (28:24):
No, I haven't, But you know, when you know, Leem
Ryan and Eddie Betts and all these guys are copying it,
like it's it's not just those boys that suffer. It's
like the other Indigenous players get furious about it, like
other players get absolutely fired up about it, and it hurts.
It hurts, But it's not only that, Like you feel

(28:46):
for Eddie's family, Like Eddie's got five kids now and
his family and Goodsy's family, like I can't imagine what
you know, all of his kids are really young, so
like Eddie's kids are young, so they probably know the
extent of what's going on. But when they grow up
and they look back on what their dad went through,
like holy shit, Like it's you don't want your kids

(29:09):
to know that your family went through that kind of stuff.
As long as we and I know Eddie won't stop,
I keep speaking up on these things and talking about
these things and bringing it up and putting people that
are being racist in the spotlight, then it's only going
to be better in the long run.

Speaker 2 (29:27):
Are you in awe of him and the strength?

Speaker 1 (29:29):
Yeah? Like it was first it was always the footy
side of things, but now it's now that I'm a
lot mature, and you know, my sister's got three kids
and with my niece gone through that kind of stuff
at school, Like it's to look up to, Yeah, to
look up to Eddie and the way he goes about
being racially vialified. I do. He's He's one of my

(29:52):
idols in outside of football, in this aspect as well.

Speaker 2 (29:57):
You're listening to ordinarily speaking with Zach Williams. I want
to talk a little bit about your upbringing. Tell me
about your dad.

Speaker 1 (30:09):
Yeah, so my dad passed away in two thousand and
I was six. My sister was turning thirteen, just going
into high school. You know, obviously my sister had a
lot more memories than I do. I was still fairly young.
But from what I can remember, you know, he was
a rugby man. He was a rugby league man, so
but from what I've heard, he was pretty good at
It's pretty handy at AFL as well when he was

(30:30):
playing in foods local like Nrandre Eagles, so he's quite handy.
But for some unknown Shane reads and Mum always tells
me that she tried to sign me up for rugby
and he put me into I was kicked. So I
don't know if this was the plan the whole time
to get me here to where I am today. But
he knew something, that's what mum said. Mum said, he

(30:51):
knew something. But you know I used to I still
got memories of going to I was kick with him
and all that kind of stuff. But now that I
look back on it, I feel for I have a
lot more feeling for my sister and my mother because
you know, that was Mum's partner. My sister was going
through a stage going into high school, you know, probably

(31:12):
going through other issues becoming a woman and stuff like that,
you know, and for her dad to be taken away
as quick as he did, as quick as it happened, then,
you know, I sort of sit back and think, you know,
I sort of got sheltered from that because I was
so young. I had these two women shelter me from
all these So I sort of feel this is why

(31:34):
I love my mom and my sister so much. And
no matter what interview I do, and I matter what
media stuff, I'd always mention those two, those two women
in my life. And my mum and I mates now
we're like, she's a lad, so we're like we're like
best mates. And my sister's the mother figure. It's quite funny.
Every time I go home and I have big with
Ma Matt my sister's house, my sister, you know, wants

(31:55):
to kick us out because we're carrying on my pool chops,
you know, my mom and I. So this is the
mother figure in the household now, which is so funny
to me, but yeah, it was quite tough growing up
without a dad, going through being a teenager and then
doing all this stuff. He was a cult man as well.
So in fact I'm here now and you know, and

(32:18):
he's not here. It's sort of hits home pretty hard.
But I got mum, got my sister, got my sister's kids,
and got the people I need here. So it is tough,
but we've got by.

Speaker 2 (32:30):
Is it true that you write Dad on your wrists
every game?

Speaker 1 (32:34):
Yeah, so I get emotionally, but I didn't know You're
going to bring How do you know that? That's crazy,
That's that's so crazy. But yeah, every I've done it,
from my very first game against Gold Coast when I
first come into the league till now. Yeah, I still
do it. And his favorite number six, so I'm wearing
number six. Thanks Kate Simpson for that, but but yeah,

(32:58):
it's still his home. I put dad number six on
my wrist. And you know, obviously football is not perfect
when you're playing it, and you go through some hard
times on the on the field in the game. But
every time I'm struggling or I'm not playing the way
I want to, part, just look at that and gets
me gone again. How did you die from anemonia? Happened
pretty quickly, Yeah, just I think he got misdiagnosed with asthma,

(33:21):
and then yeah, just he had pneumonia. And then by
the time they realized that it was pneumonia in his
lungs and all that kind of stuff, it was, it
was too late, and it just happened fairly quickly, to
be honest.

Speaker 2 (33:33):
You have some memories of that time coming home from school.

Speaker 1 (33:36):
Yeah, it was quite quite scary, you know, coming home
and the I think it was the asthma machine, like,
it was quite loud, and I didn't know what was
going on, so I thought, you know, I was just
doing that to get better, and then never got better.
And then I remember being at the hospital, remember walking
into the room when he had this scary ass mask

(33:58):
on his face, like you, I mean, like to try
and help him breathe and all that because they thought
it was something else when it was in fact ammonia.
But quite traumatizing.

Speaker 2 (34:09):
How does it shape a young man when you lose
your dad that early? What impact did it have on
your life? Do you think.

Speaker 1 (34:17):
I think, you know, I wouldn't change anything because my
Mum and my sister. They raised me the right way
with I'm respectful to people, like treat people the way
I want to be treated. But you know, there's always
things growing up, like you know, my birthdays like eighteenth,
twenty first, or whether I was hitting high school or

(34:37):
making state teams or anything like that. You know, it
is hard and I think back that, you know, Mum
did struggle doing it by herself in terms of because
I was quite a sporty kid, paying for basketball, paying
for football, paying for soccer, playing for school staff. Like
it just it got to the point where I was
just doing too much. I had to choose one sport

(34:58):
and I chose AFL. And you know, maybe if Dad
was around, I could have been doing a lot more
different sports or whatever. But like like anything, you want,
you you want your parents and you want your family
around to be at milestones in your life. And I've
had a quite a fair few milestones in terms of
making my first state team growing up, and then getting

(35:21):
MVP for New South Wales under eighteens, and then being drafted,
going to the Giants, moving to the Giants, and you know,
for example, when I've done my Achilles, like not having
like mum, Mum can't trade away. Mum was absolutely star
during my Achilles red hat, but you know the fact
that she had to do it all by herself, and
if I just had another sort of shoulder to lene

(35:43):
and you know, would have obviously would have been a
lot better. But like I said, I wouldn't change anything.
My mum's been and my sister has been absolute rock
stars in the way they've gone about it and the
way they've raised me and the way that my sister's
raising her kids now, absolute superstars. So tough, but like
I said, I wouldn't change anything.

Speaker 2 (36:02):
It must have been so tough for your mum grieving
the sudden loss of your dad and raising two kids,
and like you say, the financial stress as well, that
it's so much for her.

Speaker 1 (36:16):
Yeah, it's I sort of took all of that for
granted when I was at home, because I didn't realize
the extent and how much pressure she was under and
how much strainer would have taken for her to raise
two kids and being able to pay for this and
that and pay the bills and having to work long
hours at a job and everything like that. But you know,

(36:37):
when dad passed away, Mum went, you know, through some stuff.
My sister at a young age had to step up
and help out a lot in terms of raising me
and getting me to ton from school and helping mom
out with the groceries or you know, helping around the
house or whatever. So you know, there was times where
my sister had to look after me, if like mother figure.

(37:00):
So I think that's why my sister and I are
fairly close. To be honest, I don't I don't blame
Mom for any of that because now when I look back,
it's it's fucking hard. It would have been hard for
her to lose her partner, and then she's got a
six year old kid and a young woman that's going
into high school. Like Jesus Christ, she would have been

(37:23):
going through some stuff. So all the stuff that she
had to dealt with mentally, I don't blame her one
bit for it, because I would have would have been
tough for anyone going through that circumstance and that situation.
So yeah, two strong women in my life and love them,
love them to death.

Speaker 2 (37:39):
Sound pretty proud of him?

Speaker 1 (37:40):
Yeah, Oh, I'll tell you what. Everything that I've accomplished
in my life now, and I've always said if I
could give my contract to those women, I would give
it to them and I'll just play footy. I'll just
give them all that I have and I'll just play footy.
But obviously it doesn't work like that. So but now
that I'm down Melbourne's a lot closer to them, and
no doubt they'll probably be down here every bloody weekend.

(38:02):
Won't be able to get rid of them. But yeah,
everything to them really fair to.

Speaker 2 (38:07):
Say you were a bit of a rascal. What kind
of words do you want to use?

Speaker 1 (38:12):
Yeah, I guess, you know, I did take advantage of
the fact that, you know, my sister moved, you know,
found her partner, and she moved out quite young and
had her oldest quite young. So sort of took advantage
of sneaking out when I was supposed to on school nights,
or going to parties all weekend and not telling mom,
and you know, just doing doing dumb shit really like

(38:35):
drinking obviously going to parties. You know, there was a
period of time there where I got sucked into smoking
weed when I was like fifteen, and I was just
doing dumb shit like that, And I guess I was
taking advantage of the fact that Mum was a single mom,
and I didn't realize how much stuff she was ying
through because I was just oblivious, because I was just
being a little shitted and I just wasn't worried about

(38:58):
that having to put up with a sixteen year old
boy in trying to get him to school high school.
He's not listening to you. He's going out drinking every weekend,
smoking like and not having a father to kick him
up the backside, you know what I mean. Like, it's
it's probably got to the extent where Mum would yell
on screen, but I would just brush it off. It

(39:18):
wouldn't even affect me. So it got to the point where,
you know, my sister. I was shit scared of my
sister because she's not afraid to throw a punch if
I should say so. She threatened me a few times
and like pull your head in and I'm gonna come

(39:38):
over there and I'll give it to you, you know
what I mean. So, so it was probably a good
thing that I had someone like her and her partner
that I was quite scared of in terms of like
a bit of fear exactly. So it made me think
twice of the some of the things I would do,
but you know, it's I think every teenage boy goes through.
That's that sort of segum stance. But I think I

(40:01):
took a lot more advantage of it because I only
had Mum at home and I knew you got to
the point where she couldn't control me because I was
becoming a young man. I just took advantage of it,
to be honest. But now I look back at it,
I'm just like, you fucking idiot, what are you doing?
You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (40:18):
So, is there is there any one moment that you
look back and you're particularly ashamed.

Speaker 1 (40:24):
Or definitely it's definitely the smoking. I think, you know,
I grew up around it, and there was a lot
of people back in my community, like Feemily doing it,
and you know, when Dad passed away, Mum started doing
it as well. So I was around a lot of it.
And Mum stopped doing it, like she obviously she went
down a road that she didn't want to go to,
so when she found a way back, she stopped smoking

(40:46):
and everything like that.

Speaker 2 (40:47):
But as far as mental health goal.

Speaker 1 (40:49):
Yeah, so I knew I could see it firsthand that
other people were doing it, and I didn't want to be.
I would always say that I didn't want to be
that kid, and I just got sucked into it. And yeah,
there's that. And obviously I always regret taking advantage of Mum,
so which is which is hard thing to say because

(41:12):
you know now now who I am today. I love
Mom to death. Like like I said, we're like best
mates now, you know what I mean. So when I
look back, I'm just like, you an idiot? What were
you doing? Like why would you treat your mother like that?
You know what I mean? Like when she's yelling and screaming,
I should have pulled my head inline got back into gear,
gonna rocked up the school on time or whatever. Like

(41:33):
they got to the point where Mum would just wake
up for work, wake me up, and then she'd because
she worked at the high school, she'd drive to work
early just because she's a teacher there and had to
look after other kids. I'll go back to bed and
go to sleep, you know what I mean. Just little
things like that, like.

Speaker 2 (41:47):
And your poor mums at the school at school show you.

Speaker 1 (41:50):
Know what I mean. Like, and she had a like
obviously had a good reputation, and I was letting her
down as her son and just like sort of like
she couldn't get her backyard clean, then how could she
go to school and tell other kids what to do.
So little things like that that I regret, but we
all live and learn. I guess.

Speaker 2 (42:10):
Is it fair to say that because you didn't get
picked up in the national draft you were rookie, rookie
listed and late in the rookie draft. Is it fair
to say that you think some of your off field
stuff maybe impacted your AFL career in that sense.

Speaker 1 (42:28):
I think the main thing that impacted me was I
went to boarding school in Aubrey and I only lasted
twelve months and I went back home to finish school.
So I knew if I stayed in Aubrey, I knew
I wasn't going to finish school. So what was that?
I just I didn't like it. Yeah, just I don't
know if it was home sick. I think it was homesick.

(42:48):
But it was the first time I moved away from
marm and moved away from home, so it was quite tough.
And I just couldn't get into the groove of being
at boarding school and doing the studying and putting time
into study, and on top of that I was driving
down to when you're at it for Murray Bush Range
training every week. So it was quite it's quite daunting

(43:09):
for me to one move away from home, but then
to have all this stuff on my plate at the
one time I wasn't used to. So I went back home,
finished year twelve, and then the draft come around. And
you know, during my year twelve year, I just should
have listened more in school in my year twelve year,
done better at school. But in school, yeah, exactly, do
better in school in year twelve, but done the eighteens

(43:32):
camp with the REMS. I was the MVP. I got
invited to the national combine. I was the only one
from New South where I was invited. You know, tested,
met with met with like eight teams, so I think
it was and done the interviews, which is scary as hell.
I'd love to do them interviews now. I think I'd
do a lot better. But yeah, you know, I thought

(43:52):
I was actually quite a good chance. And you know,
all these teams were gave me some pretty good signs,
but I was probably just oblivious as a seventeen eighteen
year old kid, and then I thought I was a
good chance. He get drafted, didn't. I didn't get drafted
in national Draft, and I think that's because teams saw
that I got homesick and they probably got worried that

(44:13):
I was gonna only last few years and then go
back home, which fucking infuriates me. It makes me so
angry because a lot of boys that you know, come
through the draft where they're from Wa South Australia, no
matter where they're from, if they get drafted a team.
There's been so many cases where even at the Giants,
I know a lot of boys that got homesick and

(44:33):
come home. So they left the Giants and come home
and they still went and top pixel, you know what
I mean. So I still keep a little chip on
my shoulder, like on my shoulder with that kind of stuff.
But I think that affected my getting draft as well,
the homesickness, and I was devastated. I was absolutely shattered.
And then the next day after the draft, Lucky Buzzard,

(44:56):
the academy recruit at the time, he run all the
the Giants academies around the regional areas and bring me up,
said if you want to get on a list, we
come train with us for I think it was four
weeks or something like that and try and get you
on aie rookie spot list. And I was training. I
was training fairly hard. I think when I first got

(45:17):
up there, I was living at the top of a
pub in a room until I could get into living
with the welfare Craig Lambert and the Lamberts at the time,
so I went from the pub into their oldest daughter, Briley.
She's my age, so she was away at the time,
so I moved into her room to the welfare people's
house for like a month and a half. So I

(45:38):
was literally living out of a backpack pretty much for
two months until the draft came. And then you know,
Sheeds and I think there was a few people at
the club at the time that didn't want to put
me on the rookie list. But fortunately I was training
fairly hard, and I think Sheeds and a few others,

(45:58):
Gabby Allen and craiglar but it saw the potential that
I had and they just end up checking on the
rookie rookie list. And I think I went the last
pick in the rookie here draft, I think. So, you know,
it's little little things like that I keep in the
back of my mind. And you know I always have
this I'm going to prove you wrong mentality, and which

(46:19):
is you know, coming down here, there's to Melbourne. There's
obviously the media down here is a lot bigger and
a lot more upfront than it is in Sydney. So
you know, I'm in the spotlight now and they love
it because if you got something to say about me,
I hope you got the same energy when I come
out and prove to you what I'm about, so you
get physically I'm getting bit sweaty talking about this, but

(46:44):
like I said, like that's what drives me, Like I
love I love thinking back in those moments and just
proving to people like you should have picked me up,
you should have done this, Like I know my worthy.
Why couldn't you see it? But at the end of
the day, like I said, like by the time my
career is over and done with, I'll be happy with

(47:06):
the footy side of things. I have no doubt. I'm
quite confident in what I can do and my ability
and what I can do to help my teammates to
get to where we need to be. So yeah, it
gets me fired up a little bit when I talk
about it. But it's all part of it, really, it's
all part of it.

Speaker 2 (47:22):
Last year, tell me about the phone call when you
found out about your sister.

Speaker 1 (47:28):
Yeah, so my sister had got diagnosed with cancer and
I'm quite furious with her because she didn't tell me
straight away. So if you listen to this, Smith, I'm
not happy about that.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
But is she trying to protect you?

Speaker 1 (47:43):
Yeah? I think, like I said, she's like a mother
figure as well. So I've really I've got two mums
in my life. So it was quite quite hard to
get that phone call because you know, I knew that
this was a contract year. I knew footy. I needed
to play well in footy. I needed to do what
I need to do to set myself up, and then
for this to happen just sort of almost a spender

(48:05):
in the works early days and then that might hamstring
as well. Like a week after I found out, so
I knew I was missing the first couple of rounds
of the year, and I was like, fuck sake, like
Smith has gone through this. I can't go see her
because like obviously COVID reasons, and you know, I need
to be playing footy. I need to be at the
club to get my contract year. It's a big year.

(48:28):
I need to make sure I'm doing everything I can
to set myself up so I know that I can
help them out in the future. But at the time,
all I want to do was just go home because
I was injured. I got the phone call from her,
and all I want to do was just go down
and support her and be around her. But at the
same time, I knew there was a risk with me
going home, like she was getting chemo and doing all

(48:48):
the treatment stuff. So I happened to have COVID and
I went back and she got it. It probably would
have affected her a lot more in a way than
what it does other people get people that have gone
through COVID. Yeah, it was tough. It was fucking tough
going through that, but it was just and it was
hard because we went into the I think we were

(49:09):
into lockdown, like away, like into the hub. Sorry, it
was a very stressful time. But yeah, she's all healthy now,
she's getting back on track, and yeah she's she's in
a happy spot at the moment, which is good.

Speaker 2 (49:20):
How'd you feel when you hear that news for her?
I imagine it goes from you know, feeling like she's
the mother figure, as you describe it to all of
a sudden wanting to protect her.

Speaker 1 (49:31):
I guess, yeah, it was. It was tough because our
dad passed away when he was fairly young. Well I
think he was twenty eight, twenty nine, so I think
she was thirty one thirty thirty one last year, so
she's still very young. And she's got three beautiful kids.
She had a husband. One. Mine went to shit, I'm
gonna lose someone at a young age again, and these

(49:54):
like my sister's kids are going to lose one of
their parents at a young age like I did. I
was like, shit, like this is just just it was scary.
It was very scary. But you know, there was a
couple of weeks there when I was down in the
dance and I was I think she what she needed
for me was just to be positive and be strong.

(50:14):
So my whole attitude just changed, and I told her, like,
we'll get through this, Like she's a very strong woman,
she'll be fine, she'll get through it. Just make sure
she's doing all the right things at home and getting
the treatments that she needs to get. And if she's
doing that, then you know, we got some looking up
over us. So you'll be fine. I said, you'll get

(50:36):
through it, and she did, and she's all healthy and
all the kids are healthy, and yeah, so we're in
a really good spot at the moment.

Speaker 2 (50:43):
What kind of cancer was that?

Speaker 1 (50:44):
Ovarian cancer? The doctor said, you got something on your
over it. You got a lump or cancer there, and
he goes, you need to within the next twenty four
to forty eight hours, you need to go get it checked.
You need to go get a blood test. You need
to get it checked because if you don't, it could
be fatal. And you know, she it's quite a scary

(51:05):
time when people in your family go through stuff like that.
Like everyone's got stories like that and their families and hardships,
but you don't really you know, you hear about people
and you're like, oh shit, that's that sucks, but until
you actually go through it, you don't realize actually how
tough it is for people to go through stuff like that.
So it was a very daunting time. But like I said,

(51:28):
I knew that she was going to get through it.
She was a strong she's a strong young black woman.
So and yeah, she's all healthy now, which is good.

Speaker 2 (51:35):
The word cancer hits you, doesn't it when you hear it.

Speaker 1 (51:37):
Yeah, it scares of shit out of you because it's
obviously very well known cancer around the world. So you know,
as soon as you hear that in any form of discussion,
it's quite scary.

Speaker 2 (51:51):
Knocks the window. Ay, Yeah, so she was getting she
lives in Aubrey, but she was getting treatment in Melbourne.
Was that part of the reason why you wanted to
head back to Melbourne?

Speaker 1 (52:04):
Yeah? You know I was in the Hub and you
know she was going back and forth to Melbourne a
few times. You know. For me, I was thinking, shit,
I should be there. If I was in Melbourne, she
could just live. She could be living at my house
now and not having to drive back and forth. Like
I can't imagine what it was like to go get

(52:25):
the treatment and then having to drive home or having
to stay the night in the hotel, you know what
I mean. So, and the kids were going through school,
you know, like, so her husband couldn't really come with her,
so it was quite it would have been a tough
time for her and for me it was just if
she had somewhere to stay, it would have been so
much more convenient for everyone and the whole family. So

(52:48):
that was the main reason for me to move away
from the Giants. It was a hard decision because I've
they gave him an opportunity. I grew up, I've become
a man there, grew up with a lot of the
boys there, become men with a lot of boys there.
I was close to a lot of the staff there,
the coaches, leon, you know, I was close with everyone involved.
So it was a tough decision. But you know, people

(53:09):
always speculate, you know, the contract side of things and
all that kind of Oh that's why he left, and
I was whether I was going to get a bag
of chips in my contract. I was coming downy anyways,
because for me, I've been away from my family for
too long and for that to happen too, my sister
and may not be here. That was the deciding factor
for me to come down here.

Speaker 2 (53:30):
When people it's fascinating to me though, the financial thing,
and you obviously get quite upset about people saying it
was a financial decision. But the way that I see
it from the outside is that a financial decision for
you is also about looking after your family. Because if
you've grown up in a situation where you didn't have
a heap. I'd imagine that part of the motivation for

(53:51):
you is looking after your mum and your sister and
your family in the long run. Is that fair?

Speaker 1 (53:56):
Yeah? Even when I got my first bloody page as
an eighteen year old and I was playing for the Giants,
I gave half of it to month for me to
get my contract in be sorted. I've not only set
myself up for life half a footy, but I'm setting
my family up as well. So like you said, you know,
growing up with not much is a driving factor for

(54:19):
me because it means I can support my family as well.
Like the money, Like my contract's not just for me.
Like if I could put my mum and sis's name
on the contract, I would, you know what I mean,
I'd get them to sign it as well.

Speaker 2 (54:30):
But you've bought your sister a house, is that right?

Speaker 1 (54:33):
Yeah? So I bought my sister a house in Aubury.
Yeah so in Thiguna. Well it was actually quite crazy
because I've bought the house, but I never saw the
house and my sister I said, go find a house
that you want. You know, I've saved up me money.
I'm ready to buy a family house now for you guys,
And she went and found one and then went through

(54:54):
bought it and everything. They moved in, and it would
have been maybe six months to a year twelve that
I actually finally saw it. I saw it through FaceTime
with the kids and everything like that, but once I
showed up to the house, it was more surreal that,
holy shit, this is out, like we finally we finally
own a house, like our family finally owned something that's ours.

(55:15):
And it was one of the best feelings. And you know,
my sister will always every time home, she will thank
me for the house and all that kind of stuff,
but I tell her that she doesn't need to thank me,
like always say thank you to her for the way
she's brought me up and been on my mass when
I'm playing up and I'm actually still scared of her

(55:36):
to this day, to be honest. So it was quite
a fulfilling thing. But you know, I want to get
to the stage where I got my sister a house.
I got my house, and I got Mum's house. So
once that, my job's not done yet in terms of
the family side of things and getting Mum and my
sisters sordered. So I still got a bit to do.

Speaker 2 (55:56):
You've made me to her up with us. It's my bad,
but that's just the picture that you paint of walking
into that house, and they're just the overwhelming sense of
pride of I did this.

Speaker 1 (56:10):
That's probably my biggest thing, perhaps moment in my life,
is when I could buy a house for them. Like
always sit down with Psmith and say, this is what
I want your kids and my kids one day to
grow up and know that they can own a house,
they can own a car, they can do these things.
And because growing up I never thought about own my

(56:33):
own house or owning anything, to be honest, always just
thought money. Oh yep, money I got in my pocket.
That's fine, that's all I need. But now that I've
grown up like owning that it's mine. It changes your
whole aspect of life. Really.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
So my final question is you're still only twenty six,
You're still young. If you heard your mum and sister
talk about you, what would you want them to say?
What would you, jeeves I want them to say about
you and the boy they raise God?

Speaker 1 (57:04):
Well, I know for a fact that they would start
off with saying on a pain in the heart. They
would absolutely one hundred percent start with that probably I
don't listen to what I'm told from them. Then that
they're always right. That's that's what you'll start. That's what
they're exactly I'll say first, But I think the way
Mum raised my sister and I, I think my mum
would say the same thing about my sister and I,

(57:26):
cause i'd say about my sister that she's very respectful person,
treats people the way she wants to be treated. She's
the person that everyone wants to be around, and she's
a very giving and caring person. And at the end
of the day, you know, no matter what, whether we
own our own house or we're living out of the
back of the car or whatever, I think we will

(57:46):
never change as people. And I've tried to keep myself
grounded and tried to be the same person from when
I was growing up. You know, I went through a
stage of being a little shit ed back home, but
then you know, i'd come back to being humble and
trying to be a person that everyone can get along
with and being respectful. So hopefully they'd say all that,

(58:07):
but they'd definitely let you know that I don't listen
to them very very often, and that that my mum
always says, all right, go do what you do. But
when you come back crying and saying that I'm right,
I'm gonna it's gonna be satisfying, you know.

Speaker 2 (58:19):
So, So for mum listening right now, is she right?

Speaker 1 (58:24):
I don't know if I but she's most of the time,
she's always right. I'll give her that. I'll say most
of the time. I won't say every time. I'll give
her most of the time. But my sister, like I said,
we're pretty much the same person, and there's six years
between us, but people would think that we're the same person.

Speaker 2 (58:39):
Really so, except she's a bit scarier.

Speaker 1 (58:42):
Yeah, she's definitely. She's definitely a bit scarier. She's definitely
the more. If she tells you she's gonna fight, you
put the gloves on because you're gonna get into a
fight with her. Really so.

Speaker 2 (58:55):
But yeah, Zachie, thank you so much. I really do
appreciate your honesty, your insight. I hope it helps a
lot of people listening to understand you a bit better,
understand culture a bit better, and hopefully have their own
conversations about it. So I really appreciate you coming.

Speaker 1 (59:11):
On nah, I loved it. It's good chat. Thanks Nis time.

Speaker 2 (59:18):
Thanks for listening to this episode of Ordinarily Speaking. If
this chat has been triggering for you, please ask for help.
Lifeline and Beyond Blue are just a couple of places
you can go if you want to get in touch
at ordinarily Underscore Speaking on Instagram or at narrowly Underscore
Meadows on Twitter. If you like the track, It's Woody Pitney,

(59:39):
check him out. A new episode will drop on Wednesday.
Don't forget to hit subscribe and tell your mates because

(01:00:02):
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