September 22, 2019 • 58 mins
He was living just a few doors down from Margaret. His history is shocking. Did he get away with murder?
Credits:
Presenter / Investigative Crime Journalist - Paula Doneman
Producer / Writer - Sally Eeles
Sound Design - Marc Wright
TV reporter - Mackenzie Ravn
Graphics - Jason Blandford
With thanks to:
The team at 7 News Brisbane, Annette Caltabiano, Georgia Done, Letitia Wallace, Susan Bush, Charlie Dally-Watkins, Alex Wright Media, Mackay City Council Library.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
In nineteen seventy eight, a young mum dies violently in
a small Queensland town. Suicide or murder. What happened to
Margaret Kirstenfeld? Someone knows? This is Pendulum Episode ten. Pendulum
(00:43):
wishes to advise that some listeners may find parts of
the following podcast episode Confronting It contains details of sexual
violence and trauma. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander. Listeners are
also advised that reference is made to deceased Indigenous people. However,
names have been withheld or disguised.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I'm Paulodonoman. At the time of Margaret's death, Person X
was living two doors down from her home on Serena
Beach Road. They were acquainted but didn't know each other well.
In the eyes of local detectives, Person X was immediately
(01:27):
someone to investigate because of something that happened three years
earlier in nineteen seventy five, in the central Queensland city
of Rockhampton. Rockhampton or Rocky as it's known, is the
beef capital of Australia. You'll find plenty of statues of
(01:48):
bulls around town. The city sits on the Tropic of
Capricorn and straddles the Fitzroy River, which has a long
history of flooding, particularly during cyclone season. In summer, temperatures
can peak above forty degrees celsius. These days, Rocky boasts
(02:12):
the population of around eighty thousand. In the mid nineteen seventies,
about fifty thousand people lived there. It's one of Queensland's
oldest cities and it's always been a hub. On April nineteenth,
nineteen seventy five, the body of a young woman was
(02:32):
found in the Fitzroy River. She was naked and her
arms were bound tightly behind her back. Reeds and sticks
were found in her vagina and rectum.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Her arms were trussed behind her back with her slip
which had been knotted twice behind her shoulders. They believed
she had been thrown into the river like this and
left to drought. Doctors in a post mortem yesterday found
her body bore traces of perverted sexual indignities. The body
is believed to be that of an Aboriginal woman aged
about twenty eight. A fisherman found the body at five
(03:05):
forty five on Saturday, caught in mangroves on the north
bank of the river at Lakes Creek. She's believed to
have been killed near where the body was found. The
body had apparently been carried into the mangroves by the
tide and covered by mud and debris drifting on the tide.
Two blouses and a long white slip the woman was
wearing were gathered around her neck and shoulders. Her slip
(03:26):
had been tied around her arms just below the shoulders,
pulling her arms together behind her back and making any
arm movement impossible.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Police determined that she died about four days earlier, around
April the fourteenth, and witnesses gave statements. Publican Dorothy Vvash,
also known as mar Vivash, said one of her regular
male customers had been drinking with quote a young colored
(03:57):
woman at the Victoria Hotel on that date, and they
had left together with a carton of studies of beer
around nine pm. Bar attendant Pauline Ball provided similar evidence.
Taxi driver Ronald Redon said he'd given the woman and
man a lift from the Victoria Hotel to Lakes Creek Road,
(04:21):
near the railway station, which is right beside the Fitzroy River.
They had a carton of beer and even gave the
cave a study to other people Francis Hawkins and Rosalie
Cooper in a car driving past also reported seeing the
pair near the Lakes Creek Railway station. It wasn't long
(04:48):
before police tracked down a man on a train heading
west with a woman and her children. It was person X.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
Detectives who bought to train at DURINGA detained a man
traveling with his wife and two young children for questioning
about a macabre murder at Rockhampton. The DURINGA drama followed
discovery of the naked and bound body of an Aboriginal
woman in the Fitzroy River at five pm on Saturday.
She was identified by fingerprints as twenty eight single of
(05:21):
no fixed address. Detectives found that sexual depravities had been
committed on her. A Brisbane CIB Homicide Squad detective flew
to Rockhampton with a pathologist to help in the investigation.
The investigators checked round several Rockhampton hotels and found that
a man traveling with his wife and children had left
(05:43):
Rockhampton by train. Detectives sped one hundred and twelve kilometers
west of Rockhampton to Juringa At nine forty five last night.
They intercepted the train and detained a man in Rockhampton
Magistrate's Court today Mister Loane s m minded a man
twenty five until next Monday on a charge of murder.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
It is worth noting that doctor Ian Wilke, the pathologist
involved in Margaret Kirstenfeld's matter, also conducted the autopsy in
this case, and scientific officer Nil Raywood, who studied the
Kurstonfelt crime scene, examined the sticks found inside the Fitzroy
River body, though forty five years on he can't recall it.
Speaker 5 (06:27):
Hello, yeah, hi PAULA.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
One person who does have very sharp memories of April
nineteen seventy five is the man who gave the young
woman and Person X a lift. Taxi driver Ron Reardon.
Speaker 6 (06:40):
Yeah, Well, I was a prageman and just for part
time work. I started driving taxis of a night. Then
I eventually took up full time taxi driving.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Ron's taxi was a Black Valiant, one of only two
in Rockampton. He taken up driving in late nineteen seventy four,
a matter of months before the woman's death.
Speaker 6 (07:02):
Well, on that night I was parked on a taxi
rank across from the Victoria Hotel. I got a call
from the taxi base and for a fair at Victoria Hotel,
and when I looked across, I could see a couple
standing on the footpath. So I just went over and
(07:23):
picked the couple up, and they asked me to drive
them down to Layte S Creek, which I did down
Lastick Road and then they told me to pull up
I think there was an old house up on the
left near the railway line. They just asked me to
drop them off there. On the way down there, they
were like very friendly, offered me a beer. They had
(07:44):
a six pack of beer with him. I couldn't drink
because I'm driving, so the man was pretty persistent have
a beer driving and I said, look, I'll take one.
I put in the glove box of the car. But
they were in very good spirits. There was no problem
there as if they were going to a party. They
were like in very very good mood. From what I observed,
they weren't drunk, they were just happy. He did stand
(08:08):
out because I think he seemed to be a little
bit tallish, very bit. He was like, it's a very
good looking in these days, tall and youngish and sandy
blondie hair. I don't know what the man was wearing,
but I do remember the lady was very well dressed
(08:30):
because the clothes she had on. The clothes were like
you could wear to a nightclub or to a wedding
or something, not the sort of clothes you wear to
a hotel with a bar, you know, normalous jeans and
thongs or whatever. She's very well dressed that night.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
One said music didn't play in the pubs back then.
There was a public bar where the men usually drank,
and more of a lounge bar down the side where
the women would congregate.
Speaker 6 (08:56):
Normally, them days were just men in the bar. Didn't
see tim any women drinking a bar. Back in seventy five.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
He recalled that at the time there were two pubs
in Rockhampton which were popular with Aboriginal and Islander patrons,
the Ponderosa Hotel and the Victoria Hotel known as the VIT.
Speaker 6 (09:15):
There wasn't a lot of hotels in Rocky in them
days that the Aborigin and Ireland the people seemed to
drink at. They seemed to pick their hotels where they
were welcome.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Until that night, he'd never seen person X or the women.
Speaker 6 (09:30):
They were just laughing and goking, giggling and carrying on.
It was about it. You know, everything was happy. Nothing
would make you think that then think it was going
to go wrong. Well, I didn't know where they were
going because actually there was only one house there, and
I think the house was either owned by the council
(09:50):
or the railway, so I'm not sure. They're very isolated.
ILL often go past there and I think it still
looks vacant.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
When you dropped them off. Person X paid for the fair.
Then the woman had an unusual request.
Speaker 6 (10:05):
Yeah, she actually said will you come back? And picked
me up in an hour, But I think it was
a busy night and I sort of forgot, But I
thought where would I pick her up? Because there was
sort of nothing there where I dropped them off.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Ron got busy with other fairs and never went back.
But several days later, after a body was found in
the river, he was called into the office.
Speaker 6 (10:29):
The taxi company called me in and asked me if
I had picked up a couple on that night and
where I took him, and when I said yes, I
remember picking them up, and then they told me to
go to the police station and asked for I think
it was defective, and that's when I found out what
had happened.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
On Tuesday May twenty seven, nineteen seventy five. The case
was the subject of a committal hearing in the Magistrate's Court.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
A twenty five year old settler north rock Hampton was
committed for trial on a murder charge. At the completion
of evidence called by the Crown in the Magistrate's Court yesterday,
pleaded not guilty to having murdered at Lakes Creek near
Rockhampton on or about April fourteen. He was committed to
stand trial at the Criminal Sittings of the Supreme Court,
(11:19):
rock Hampton on August nineteen. In all, twenty witnesses were
called to give evidence before mister B. G. Waller sm
The body of a young colored woman was found on
the bank of the Fitzroy River on April nineteen, at
a spot about four hundred yards from where it was
alleged she was last seen alive. Death was stated to
be due to drowning. Most of the evidence from nine
(11:42):
witnesses yesterday concerned the movements of the deceased woman on
the evening of Monday, April fourteen. At the end of
the Crown case, Mister R. D. Hall, appearing, submitted that
there was insufficient evidence for committal that no reasonable jury
properly directed could bring in a verdict of guilty on
the charge of murder. Mister Wallace said he was satisfied
(12:03):
there was sufficient evidence to place them on trial.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
There was a similar but shorter report of the case
in a Brisbane newspaper.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
May twenty eighth, nineteen seventy five. Twenty five, A Fettler
of North Rockhampton was committed for trial on a murder charge.
At the completion of evidence called by the Crown in
the Magistrate's Court yesterday, he pleaded not guilty to a
charge of having murdered at Lakes Creek near Rockhampton about
April fourteen. He was committed to stand trial at the
(12:33):
Criminal settings of the Supreme Court beginning on August nineteen.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
We'll be using the pseudonym Rosie when we refer to
this woman who drowned in the Fitzroy River. There are
two reasons why. The first is a legal one. Naming
this victim may also identify a person X, which we
are not legally allowed to do. Secondly, Rosie was an
(13:04):
Aboriginal woman, and there is a practice among some Indigenous
communities that a deceased person's name is changed and their
image suppressed for a period of mourning. After many months
trying to track down family members, I managed to speak
with two of Rosy's relatives. Her niece, Debbie, was a
(13:26):
young girl when her aunt died. She's given us approval
to use the name Rosy as a pseudonym. How well
were you in nineteen seventy five when your aunt died?
Are you being born nineteen seventy five?
Speaker 7 (13:39):
I would have been Or that's a good one, I
would have been eleven.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Do you remember how her death impacted on your family?
Speaker 7 (13:48):
Well, that's the thing. My grandmother, my mother, never spoke
of her death till we started getting ova. Maybe my
oldest brothers may have known. I'm not sure, but we
only knew about she had passed away.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
She remembers her grandmother's sadness at Rosie's passing, but was
never told details of the death until now. Debbie recently
sat down with me to go through news clippings and
court documents of Rosie's case and was horrified at what
she learned.
Speaker 7 (14:21):
My first reaction, you know, I was angry, sometimes sad
because I didn't know about her and what had actually
happened to her. Then, when I seen the transcripts and
how the court proceeding was done, I found that was
unjust of my Auntie, uns for our family that we
(14:45):
didn't get any justice for her. I felt like she
was treated as a piece of meat. She just didn't
matter at all, And how someone could be so ignorant
to see the evidence that was put forward within the
So I was pretty angry about that no justice was
done for it at all.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
What was your reaction to your aunt being described as
a prostitute.
Speaker 7 (15:10):
My Auntie was never a prostitute. They portrayed there as
you know, this person when she was far from it.
I've never met my Auntie, but other people, family members
have spoken about her. But to be called a prostitute,
that was so wrong. The way, you know, an Aboriginal
(15:32):
woman is portrayed as this. It is so wrong, especially
in the media when they never took the time to
come and speak to family members. My grandmother was suffering
at that moment, her best friend, my uncle, No one
never came to speak to them. Yeah, it's just sad. Well,
you know, she was portrayed as a prostitute where she
(15:55):
was far far from it. An outgoing, kind person, generous
and you know, a little our hard worker. She was
a hard worker because in them days, we didn't have
any choices at that time. She was never a prostitute.
She was a woman that went out and enjoyed life.
She went out, she was a young girl going out,
(16:16):
you know, doing free wills, you know, and enjoying ourselves,
enjoying their company with their auntie, you know. And she
just happened to walk off with this lad or, the perpetrator,
and then slung into court and be called a prostitute. Now,
I feel that's wrong for a abitional woman to be
(16:36):
painted that picture when no one never knew her. And
I feel that in my own heart because how my
aunties were read. They were brought up real strict my mom.
You know, she was very protected of her younger sisters.
You know, it's very upsetting that they are to portray
he as a prostitute. I know that she wasn't when we,
(16:57):
as aborisinal people were probably I will class said, you know,
a well spoken young lady, well dressed, very quiet, never
made any trouble mind the our own business, and as
far from a prostitute, and so wrong she.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Wants her Auntie's story told.
Speaker 7 (17:14):
Also speaking with family members that knew Artie. She was
a very quiet person. She loved being around their family
and friends. She just loved life. Out of personality. She
always outgoing, she always stressed, really presentable. She also helped
(17:35):
in the community with various little jobs that needed to
be done on the community.
Speaker 5 (17:39):
That was it.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Sheberg Debbie Yep in Cherbay.
Speaker 7 (17:42):
And she she was getting a little bit mushal. Sorry,
she she just she was brought up in a Christian home.
Her grandmother will her mother was very was Christian. My
(18:02):
grandfather worked really hard too. Our family was brought up
in a strict household because of my grandmother's Christianity. She
helped out a lot when she could. But she loved fashion.
She loved sports, but she was in the marching girls.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Debbie tells me Rosie had been a member of the
Mergen in Paris marching girl team, which won a state
championship in nineteen sixty. She loved playing sports, going to church,
in the movies, and was well known and liked in
the community in which she grew up. After completing her schooling,
she worked as a domestic in various locations and liked traveling.
(18:46):
Debbie says Rosie's mother was a long standing member of
the local church and her father was a strict laura
abiding man who worked hard for his family.
Speaker 7 (18:55):
In a big family. She was one of nine. She
would have been the second and youngest sisters. There were
four sisters.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Did she have any children, did she marry?
Speaker 7 (19:05):
She didn't have any children. But by this time, you
know there was other nieces and plus my siblings.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Do you know how she came to be in Rockhampton.
Speaker 7 (19:16):
She went to Rockhampton to see their Auntie. That's what
brought her up to Rockampton.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
The case went to trial and the Supreme Court of
Queensland in Rockhampton on August twenty seventh, nineteen seventy five,
before Justice Kelly person X, represented by mister R. Greenwood,
was indicted on a charge of murdering Rosie. He pleaded
not guilty. Jurors were impaneled, All were men, and any
(19:52):
witness who wasn't white was described as a colored person.
At the time, these factors would not have raised an eyebrow.
It was the way things were done. But now looking back,
one can only wonder how a panel of white male
(20:13):
jurors before a white male judge and lawyers would look
upon a case involving a homeless, young Aboriginal woman regarded
by Manny as a prostitute. What perspectives would all of
these white men have taken into the courtroom. Soon after
(20:35):
the jury was impaneled, mister Greenwood, who represented person X,
raised a query, I was.
Speaker 8 (20:43):
Not able to glean how the crown or alleging that
my client caused the death of the deceased woman. He
opened that it would be alleged that she died from drowning.
I did not hear him put the proposition how the
accused is to alleged to have caused that drowning. If
your honor is to take a break, perhaps he could
give that some consideration during the course of the break.
(21:03):
I feel it is fundamental in this case for me
to be in a position to know exactly what proposition
along those lines the offense is called upon to meet.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
So what the defense is trying to determine is how
the prosecution case claims person X caused Rosy to drown
The court adjourned at eleven twenty one am, then resumed
ten minutes later with the Crown prosecutor saying, to make it.
Speaker 9 (21:30):
Quite clear, the Crown says that from the circumstances, from
the inferences, the common sense inferences you draw from the circumstances,
the only rational conclusion you can come to is that
the accused cause to enter the water of the river,
thus drowning a trust. That makes it clear that is
(21:50):
the Crown case.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
But the legal argument continued. The jury was retired at
eleven forty four am so that a question of law
could be clarified. Defense barrister mister Greenwood gave an account
of what he says happened between Person X and Rosie.
Speaker 8 (22:07):
The evidence suggests that this was their first meeting. There
was no noticeable antagonism or argument between them by the
taxi driver, who was the last person to seek alive.
In fact, the evidence was to the contrary that my
client had his arm around her and they were cuddling,
following an active intercourse between the accused and the deceased.
(22:29):
The decease suffered certain physical disabilities in as far as
she had or was found later to have in her
rectum and also her vagina. Portions of this reed material,
this stick material, which has been described that she was
physically distressed thereby, and that she was further debilitated by
having around the upper part of her body and around
(22:50):
her arms certain items of clothing which were, on the
admission of the accused, deliberately placed thereby. The deliberate acts
that the accused admit are limited to these, and there
is no suggestion that when the accused left the deceased
she was other than conscious.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
So Rosie was distressed and may have been in pain
after some unusual sexual activity that may not have been consensual.
Person X admitted tying Rosy's arms behind her back with
two separate knots, which he then looped together. He also
admitted to inserting a stick inside her genitals before leaving
(23:31):
her alive, apparently to call an ambulance. Mister Green would
argue that a jury could not be satisfied beyond reasonable
doubt that person X carried out a direct act which
forced Rosy into the water to drown. He also raised
a subject of intent, saying that murder could only result
(23:53):
if person X intended to kill. The defense then suggested
ways Rosy may be ended up in the water. He
said the tide was on the way in when person
X last saw Rosie in an area of thick mud,
and that she was.
Speaker 8 (24:11):
Waiting for the accused to return with the ambulance.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
But perhaps in a position.
Speaker 8 (24:15):
Where the tide took her away.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
He also said.
Speaker 8 (24:19):
There is nothing on which the jury could reject the
hypothesis that, for reasons of her own, after the accused left,
this woman, who was not restrained from being able to
get up and walk around, walked deliberately into the river.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
His reasoning was as follows. Firstly, Rosie had been in
and out of local hotels since opening time until after
eight pm. An evidence showed she was at the time.
Speaker 8 (24:46):
When she went on this escapade with the accused, considerably
the worse for wear from liquor. We know from the
statements of the accused to the police that she was
at one stage crying out for help, and we know
that she was di by these bonds around her. She
could have got to her feet, walked onto the jetty,
and there lost her balance and fallen in due to
(25:08):
her advanced state of being affected by alcohol.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
So here the defense is suggesting an accident. He also
claimed that the sticks found jammed into her rectum got
there by accident, too.
Speaker 8 (25:23):
So she could have toppled from the jetty into the
river as a result of alcohol, as a result of
the combined effect of alcohol and perhaps pain from what
cannot really be proven to the other than the accidental
entry of this item into her rear passage. There is
no evidence to explain that other than the accused explanation
that she inflicted that through her own agency, but one
(25:46):
in her vagina was admitted by him to be placed there.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
The defense also said that a head injury suffered by
Rosy may have been inflicted when she fell from the
jetty or while she was in the river.
Speaker 8 (25:59):
The accused deny causing it.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Here's mister Greenwood's second theory. Rosie was a prostitute who
had earlier in the evening given her body for the
amount of sixty cents. He then referred to the reeds
found in her vagina.
Speaker 8 (26:15):
She had also found herself in a debating situation this
interference with her private area. I would suggest this was
a most unfortunate woman in a most unfortunate set of circumstances,
who had become debased and perhaps humiliated in these circumstances,
and the theory of suicide must loom very strongly as
(26:35):
a reasonable theory.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
He suggested, a degraded and humiliated Rosy may have taken
her own life. However, mister Greenwood also told the court
that Person X was asked, did you.
Speaker 8 (26:50):
Have any conversation with her which might have led you
to believe that she could have taken her own life?
He answered, no, she seemed all write to me. That,
of course, is relevant to how she seemed to be
accused at the time he claims to have left her.
As to my hypothesis a possible suicide, a knowledge of
human nature would not have to be very deep for
(27:10):
one to realize that the situation could easily change, or
that the accused could have been mistaken about the matter.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Ultimately, mister Greenwood concluded by reiterating his argument, it cannot be.
Speaker 8 (27:23):
Said that a jury could safely come to the decision
beyond any reasonable doubt. That the only difference that could
be rationally drawn is that the accused deliberately placed that
has ceased in the river.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Mister Dodds, the Crown prosecutor, then moved to counter mister
Greenwood's claims. Before doing so, however, he asked the judge, has.
Speaker 9 (27:44):
Your honor not seen the photographs nor nor should I.
Speaker 10 (27:48):
This is because I am dealing with the mutter on
the Crene Opening.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
So Justice Kelly had not seen photographs of the scene
of Rosy's body, the injuries she'd suffered, the way she
was tied up. Wouldn't such photos be helpful when considering
the point of law that was raised prosecuted. Dodds went
on to point out that person X had not been
(28:13):
truthful in his admissions.
Speaker 9 (28:15):
There is firstly a circumstance that she has the stick
in her anus, and his description of how that happened,
which I submit, is unlikely. It is unlikely that such
a thing could penetrate in that fashion, in the way
that has been described by him. Secondly, there is the
evidence that he placed the stick in her vagina. Thirdly,
(28:36):
there is the fact that he tied her up in
the fashion which he describes. He offers these explanations after
he is made aware that Detective Bolton knows these things,
that these had in fact been found about the body.
Speaker 8 (28:49):
In my submission.
Speaker 9 (28:50):
The explanations are not common sense that he not just
stand up. He offers no reason, he says, he can
offer no reason for breaking the stick off and putting
it inside her vagina. He offers a reason for tying
her up to stop her hurting herself. In my submission,
it just does not make sense to tie her up
in that fashion for that reason. So we have a
(29:12):
position where he is there with her, the body is
found days later with sticks. In these positions, and apparently
that clothing tide around the arms, he offers explanations which
I submit do not make.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Sense, mister Dudd said, the jury would be entitled to
draw the inference that he is not telling the truth.
Speaker 9 (29:33):
In all common sense. The jury, I submit, would say,
we do not accept that the tying was done for
the reason he said it was done, and we do
not accept that because it just does not make sense,
firstly to tie her in that fashion. For that reason,
the jury could also look to the circumstances that he
left her there tied, walked some distance, intending as he said,
(29:54):
to get an ambulance, changed his mind, and went home,
leaving her there. The jury could look at that circumstance also,
I submit, and say to themselves, we do not accept
that in these circumstances he just walked away and changed
his mind about getting an ambulance, that he went home
and did absolutely nothing. They could say, we just do
not accept that he was going to get an ambulance
(30:14):
at all, and we do not accept that he tied
her up for this reason that he supplied.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Justice Kelly then asked a question, So.
Speaker 10 (30:24):
You see that the Jewish unfair that the reason he
tad their arms was to impeter where else she was
in the river and thus closet to drene.
Speaker 9 (30:32):
What I am saying is that the inference that the
accused caused her to enter the water and thus dran
our weigh sufficiently any other available inference.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Later, the judge suggested, but there's.
Speaker 10 (30:45):
Not any evidence of motive.
Speaker 8 (30:47):
There is no evidence of motive.
Speaker 9 (30:49):
No, but there is, in my submission sufficient evidence for
the jury to be able to find, to the exclusion
of any other inference, that the accused caused the death
of the deceased.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
The quote A journed for lunch at twelve fifty PM,
during which time Justice Kelly considered the submissions from the
defense council. At two thirty PM, in the absence of
the jury, court resumes with the decision from the judge.
Speaker 10 (31:17):
To my mind, the evidence opened is such that there
are various possibilities open as to the manner in which
the deceased met her death, and that the jury properly directed,
could not properly be satisfied beyond a recental doubt that
the accused court of death, either directly or indirectly, that
being so, the jury would necessarily find accused not guilty
(31:37):
both of murder and manslaughter.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
The indictment was withdrawn, The jury was informed and retired.
Then at two thirty nine pm, will.
Speaker 8 (31:48):
The accused stand?
Speaker 10 (31:52):
You have discharged upon this indictment.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
The murder charge was dropped. The court was adjourned at
two forty pm, a matter of hours after the case began,
and Person X walked away. A Freeman taxi driver, Ron Readon,
had been sitting outside the courtroom a witness, waiting to
(32:20):
be called to give evidence, when a dejected looking police
officer came looking for him.
Speaker 7 (32:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (32:26):
I was sitting outside the courtroom and a policemen come
out and just said you're right to go. You won't
be needed. He's got up. I didn't know what to say.
I said, oh, he said no, you can go, and
as I actually walked out down the stairs, he followed
behind me.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Rosie's death was formally announced with a funeral notice in
the Rockhampton Bulletin.
Speaker 11 (32:55):
The relatives and friends of missus and family of Sherberg
respectfully invited to attend a service for her beloved daughter
and their sister sister in law Aren't and relative at
the North Rockhampton Cemetery this Thursday afternoon, commencing at three o'clock.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
On a road trip to gather research with this podcast,
I visited Rockhampton with my friend and producer Annette Caltabiano
and went to the cemetery to try to find Rosy's grave.
It is a huge, huge cemetery. We had a map
of the plots, but it wasn't easy. What's ending.
Speaker 12 (33:38):
Let's just keep walking down here because maybe this represents
maybe middle section, I don't know, and we're not sure
if she'll have a marked grave or not.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
So well, that's the other difficulty is actually she could
have been buried in unmarked grave, which will make this
exercise somewhat difficult.
Speaker 12 (33:56):
So there are some graves here that are marked, but
there's a lot that aren't.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Well, and it was number coming to the end of
the rod.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
There's nine.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yeah, I wonder if she's back this way. Well, there's
a few sites here that are unmarked. Okay, so we
need to look on this side. Now that's this side, Jim.
There's quite a few unmarked graves here. The cemetery is huge,
(34:25):
particularly compared to the one where Margaret Kursenfeld is buried.
This outside of Jan Dowie and see graves as far
as the eye can see. Sometimes for those who couldn't
afford or whose families couldn't afford a proper burial, they
were often given a pauper's grave funded by the government,
which would basically mean it was an unmarked grave. We
(34:48):
returned the next day and asked for help. With the
help of counsel employees, we have now pinpointed Her final
resting place is one of about thirty five thousand people
buried in this one hundred and thirty year old cemetery,
hemmed in by two major arterial roads. According to cemetery records,
(35:08):
she was buried here ten days after her body was
found on the bank of Rockhampton's Fitzroy River on April fourteenth,
nineteen seventy five. Rosy's grave is unmarked, with nothing to
say who she was or who loved her. In the
twenty eight years she was alive. It's really sad and infuriating.
(35:33):
Rosie's niece, Debbie, tells me her grandmother, Rosie's mother, desperately
wanted her daughter's body return to Sherburg, four hundred and
fifty kilometers away. This never happened.
Speaker 7 (35:47):
We strongly believe that she'd never got justice. A family
never got justice. My grandmother never got justice because of
the where can I put it? The system that was
put in place for our Aboriginal people in the first
place is feel like we're nobody on this earth, in
(36:08):
the society, and we still looked at as nothing as
anybody as people in the society in this world. I
know for a fact that my grandmother hasn't got justice.
When she tried, my uncle tried to help her. But
MIAUNTI still never got justice.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
How do you mean your uncle try to help her.
Speaker 7 (36:29):
He was trying to communicate with the inspector that was
on Aberishal community.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
There was a police inspector, Debbie.
Speaker 7 (36:39):
No, they they we used to call them inspectors because
they were like protectors of the community that was still
running Aboriginal affairs on the community.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
So that included controlling your grandmother's finances.
Speaker 7 (36:51):
That's right. They controlled our finance, even their pension. They
controlled everything because my grandmother, being on their community, must
have been well a well respected person, and they didn't
give her the opportunity to bury Auntie back home on
our country, on Walker Walker Country. And you know, from
(37:12):
my uncle, it was very disheartening because he offered, you know,
to help my grandmother because he was living in Brisbane
at the time and working. My mother and my aunties
looked at my uncle as their brother, even though they
were first cousins. So he was trying to do everything
he can to get her body back to share it
(37:32):
to be buried, and that was refused through in them days,
it was the office and an inspector that was in
the office at that time.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
So Rosie wasn't returned home for burial because the government
inspector was in control of her family's finances. Why because
at the time, Aboriginal families were not allowed to make
decisions about money, and the inspector did not agree that
bringing Rosie's body home was a financially sound decision. But
(38:03):
her family still wants her back.
Speaker 7 (38:06):
I have spoken to my uncle about it, and I've
spoke to my older cousin Steven. I've spoken to a
cousin over in Western Australia. I said to my uncle,
I said, we may not get any justice, but I
want to go on my grandmother's wishes to have a
daughter buried where their parents are, any other extended family
(38:28):
are buried, and we really want justice. If something can
bring the case alive again, you know, that'll be a
miracle and we might finally get justice for our auntie,
bring the perpetrator to a full, grow and core procedure.
But at the end of the day, my grandmother's wish
was to take your daughter back home and give her
(38:49):
a proper burial. My grandmother passed away in nineteen eighty three.
We've never spoken in them days. We weren't allowed to
speak about anything unless we were asked to. We've never
had any input inward because I think my grandmother would
have been traumatized of everything and you know, not fully
(39:11):
understanding the legal procedures through everything that fails most of
us abigal people when we depend on a system to
be treated as equal. You know, we try to be
upstanding citizens and we're just disappointed in the system when
we know that the system should be there to do
the right thing by all people within the legal system.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Do you remember whether your any of your family attended
that court that day.
Speaker 7 (39:40):
I'm not sure, but I think my grandmother and my
auntie did go to Rockampton one day. My grandmother was
on a pension, so she couldn't really travel us. She
had most of her grandchildren with there at this time too.
She wouldn't have had time to stay away long time
from her grandchildren.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Did you of what their reaction was when the charges
were dropped against the man accused of murdering her.
Speaker 7 (40:06):
I think my uncle was just angry with the situation.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
We've also received a written statement from Rosie's cousin, who
grew up with her and remembers her well. We've taken
out any references that may be identifying.
Speaker 13 (40:22):
My name is Lewis. I lived in the same home
asge during the early nineteen fifties to mid nineteen sixties.
I am still to this day troubled bos murder in
Rockampton all those years ago, also by the lack of
justice and dignity that was afforded her by those responsible
for upholding law and order, and the courts for not
pursuing more vigorously justice for my deceased cousin. They claimed
(40:45):
she was a prostitute. That, plus the fact she was
an obvious aboriginal in appearance, did not order well for her.
If they could demonize and make her less human, would
make it easier for all to callously disregard her very
basic human right. Say that I knew very well their
claim that she was a prostitute is not that I
knew or would expect from her. We were raised in
(41:08):
a very religious environment, with her mother ensuring that we
attend the Australian Inland Mission Church at least twice on
Sundays and once during the week. Her mother, Auntie Jane,
would also be quoting Bible passages in the meantime, we
all held Auntie Jane in high regard, and like me,
would not do anything like prostituting to embarrass her mother.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
He goes on to clarify that it shouldn't matter anyway
whether a person is a prostitute or not, that everybody
should be entitled to and afforded the protection of the law,
justice and fair treatment from all levels of government. He
also explains his family's distress at not being able to
(41:49):
bring Rosy back to her home country.
Speaker 13 (41:52):
My Auntie Jane expressed to me that she would have
liked to bury back home in the cemetery at Cherbourg.
She however, had no money or resource to do exactly that.
The only collateral she had was her fortnightly federal government pension.
I too had no extra money to help my Auntie Jane,
as I had four children of my own to support.
I was not in the position to help, and most
other family members were not able to assist with her
(42:14):
request as well. I said to her, let's go down
to the office to see if they can help. So
I accompanied Arnie Jane down to the office as it
was called back then. It was occupied by bureaucrats doing
what I perceived to be administration work. However, these bureaucrats
had extraordinary powers over residents in the settlements, with no
regard for cultural values or tradition. To my understanding, back then,
(42:35):
they would not have had any cultural training whatsoever, making
decisions based on everyday life of the residents. In fact,
they had more power over residence than the Queensland Police
and they would let you know about it. They could
separate families with a signature. This was intimidation and control
of residence lives and was an ever present concern to
the residents. So with this knowledge, we approached a bureaucrat
(42:56):
with the request to assist Auntie Jane to bring her
daughter back to Sherbourg for the bars. Unfortunately, with all
the powers and resources of the Queensland Government, he callously
and cold heartedly refused to assist her. I pleaded with
him to use her fortnightly federal government pension to take
out a determined amount until it was paid off, but
it fell on deaf ears. My Auntie was crushed, but
(43:17):
this little old Aboriginal woman still maintained her dignity and
Christian values while I was ranting about the ineptitude of
that bureaucrat. From there, it was a mad dash to
take my Auntie and my wife to Gimpi to catch
the overnight train to Rockampton to attend the funeral. Justice
delayed is justice denied. My beloved Auntie Jane has passed on.
All of your sisters have passed on not seeing justice prevail.
(43:41):
I hope somebody can read this and say, yes, she
deserves justice and finally right the wrong that was done
to this woman. If I was confronted with the accused
of the murder, I would ask, why did you brutalize
my cousin in the manner that you did. Why did
you not let the family have some dignity in their loss?
You are truly an evil being.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
Rosie's niece Debbie, also has a message for the man
once charged with murdering her auntie.
Speaker 7 (44:15):
This is sad, but you put us to our family
through hell and doing this to my auntie like a
piece of meat. I won't wish anything bad on you
because I think karma can come around, and I just
live your guilty, guilty life. Yeah, that's it. I'm sorry,
I can't.
Speaker 4 (44:39):
Ron.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
The taxi driver who gave Rosie her final trip, said
the case didn't seem to create a ripple among the
residents of Rockhampton. Back in the nineteen seventies, there was
no outrage. Person X was still accepted.
Speaker 6 (44:54):
I did see him after that drinking outside of Hope
with a group of Aboriginal and Island of people, which
I didn't understand because they knew what he'd done, and
in them days, I didn't think he'd be around for
(45:15):
too long. I thought the payback system would work. I
thought he'd have be an outcast or who would have
left down and not still hanging around Rocky. But apparently
he must have been accepted in with the Aboriginal people.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
It wasn't the only time Ron saw Person X in
the weeks after the court case.
Speaker 6 (45:34):
I was a little bit weighed after that when he
got off free.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
His fear was that Person X would remember he was
a key witness who identified him.
Speaker 6 (45:43):
I picked him up another time from the Ponderosa Hotel
and I actually drove him over to the Victoria Hotel.
I wasn't one to knock back a bear, but I
realized he didn't recognize me or anything like that, so
it wasn't a problem.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
One night Ron saw him brawling outside a pub.
Speaker 6 (46:01):
He was actually out on the foot path with a
group of people. They were fighting. He was involved in
the pipe.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
When you say he was involved in a fight, was
he actually fighting or was he being attacked?
Speaker 6 (46:13):
No, he was fighting there. He was fighting. It was
like just a bit of a brawl going on. I
didn't hang around. I think I picked the bear up
whoever I was picking up, and left, But I just
knew it was him, and I knew what he'd done.
I thought under. I could understand what type of person
he was.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
But within a matter of months person X moved on.
Ron never saw him again. But he could not forget Rosie.
Speaker 6 (46:39):
Because it's always been on my mind why he got off.
I could not ever understand that, so, you know, forty
something is always thought about it. I can still remember
her face and how she was dressed. Damn, I just
don't think that he got justice.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
When Margaret Kirsenfeld died in Serena in nineteen seventy eight,
it was the detectives from Rockcampton who highlighted the person
ex connection and his history in regards to Rosie's case.
This is how former Serena police officer Peter Howard remembers it.
Speaker 14 (47:27):
One of the investigators, perhaps two of them, from Rockampton,
had been involved in an investigation of the death of
an Aboriginal woman in Rockhampton, and this person was actually
charged in relation to that death and subsequently was not
(47:48):
convicted of that murder by the time the postborning examination
come back. There were aspects of that death in Rockampton
and the injuries Margaret Kirstenfel would have had that had
striking similarities.
Speaker 2 (48:06):
Can you elaborate a little bit more on the nature
of those injuries.
Speaker 14 (48:10):
Foreign objects inserted into both those women, Vagina.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Did the investigators take that man into custody to interview him?
Do you know what happened?
Speaker 4 (48:22):
No?
Speaker 14 (48:22):
Look, I know he was spoken to, but I'm just
not sure how far that was pursued.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
Hello, Peter ib was a plain close Constable Roor Campton
cib in February nineteen seventy eight and a company detective
Sergeant Clarie Williams to Serena for the Kurston Felt.
Speaker 5 (48:42):
Matter, and two of us went up there to give
him a hand, just as that didn't inquiries that wouldn't
have to make.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
While he wasn't directly involved in the investigation into Rosie's
death three years earlier, he knew a lot about it.
He'd helped to pull her body out of the Fitzroy River,
and he could see clear links between Rosy's case and Margaret's.
Speaker 5 (49:05):
I knew about the one in Rocky Eampton in the
same name. Come up, you know I think that killed her.
I reckon, he's killed it. DMA, Well, it's the same way.
And he said, at one place Rocky, next one he's
up in Serena and There's two women died and they
both got interference with their vagina. Just seems strange to me.
Speaker 12 (49:29):
You know.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
Ivy says homicide detectives were quick to run with the
suicide theory, even though he and Clarie Williams tried to
fight it.
Speaker 5 (49:37):
Clary and I think we were the only two disagree
with the conference of that it was suicide. I don't know.
Clary and I disagree with what they said. Made ourselves known,
but we didn't like it.
Speaker 12 (49:49):
You know.
Speaker 5 (49:50):
They weren't happy, and that was about all we could do.
Speaker 2 (49:54):
Ivy is now a retired grandfather battling cancer. A year ago,
he was given only months to live. Fortunately, he's managed
to defy that prognosis. He says. When Margaret's case was
reopened as a murder more than a decade ago, police
got in touch, and in recent months homicide detectives have
(50:16):
again contacted him. I interviewed Clary Williams in two thousand
and seven. Back then, he told me he always believed
Margaret had been murdered.
Speaker 15 (50:29):
The uniform police thought she was murdered. Some of the
detectives did too. The position of the body and the
nature of the injuries didn't indicate suicide to me.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
For Williams, there was a distinct link to Rosy's case
and the proximity of Person X living just meters from
Margaret when she died rang along Bells.
Speaker 15 (50:54):
And the fact she had vaginal injuries, and the similarities
were there, the whole situation didn't look like suicide.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
William says he called Person X in for cursory questioning,
but Albert Barkie and Person X provided an alibi, something
to do with work on the railway between Serena and Marlborough.
He cannot remember whether the alibi was checked. William says
there wasn't enough evidence to hold Person X, so police
(51:26):
released him. The Rockhampton detectives made further inquiries and spoke
with the de facto wife of Person X the day
after Margaret's death. She had told them she had washed
his clothes the night before. However, Williams and Ivy could
(51:46):
not recall whether Person X had asked her to wash
his clothes, if it was out of the ordinary for
her to do his laundry on a Friday night, or
if his clothes were stained with blood. Williams said they
returned to Serena the following day, the day before Valentine's Day,
(52:07):
and took a statement from Person x's de facto. But
once the suicide theory was advanced in Margaret's case, the
matter was out of their hands. I spoke to Clary
Williams more recently on the phone. He's now eighty five
years old. His memory is fading, but his position that
(52:28):
Margaret was murdered had not changed, as he told me
in two thousand six, Williams again spoke of a gun
belt with blood on it that had been found weeks
after Margaret's death had been declared as suicide. He described
it as a leather rifle sling with blood on it
that had possibly turned up at Person x's house. One
(52:52):
of the Serena uniform police officers, who also thought Margaret's
death was a murder, contacted Williams at the Rockhampton CIB.
The officer told him about the bloodstains gun belt. William
said he told the officer to contact the homicide squad
in Brisbane. And if you recall from episode nine the
(53:13):
statement of Marsha Breed when she was talking about the
hunt for a prowler on the Thursday night before Margaret's death.
Speaker 11 (53:20):
I saw the man had a gun and he had
a bullet belt around his waist.
Speaker 2 (53:25):
She's referring to person X. So what happened to this
blooded gun belt? Former Serena constables Peter Howard and Craig
Robertson can't remember it, but they weren't the only police
officers in Serena at the time. We're still trying to
find out. Retired homicide Squad detective Keith Smith remembers the
(53:50):
division among police about the cause of Margaret's death and
the questions raised about Person X.
Speaker 16 (53:57):
The final fighting is Doctor Wilkie were questioned by the
local detectives who were strongly of the opinion that Kirsten
Felt had been murdered. Their opinion was reinforced by the
fact that they had identified a male person who lived
nearby who had been friendly and had an association of
some kind with kirston film. Now aparently the same man
(54:22):
had previously been known to detectives as a first of
interest in the suspicious depth of a woman whose body
with some injuries had been recovered from the Fitzroy River
in Rockampton in recent times. I don't have any personal
knowledge of that particular matter, but this was what could
(54:45):
be described as circumstantial evidence had unsubstantiated by any direct evidence,
but they were seen by the local detective as more
than pure coincidence.
Speaker 7 (54:54):
He said.
Speaker 2 (54:55):
He admired the tenacity of the rock Canton detectives, but
he could not be suayed. Even now. Smith wonders how
the Curson Felt case could be investigated as a murder.
Speaker 16 (55:07):
Well, I don't know what their evidence is that she
was murdered unless I've unless they've discovered some evidence it
wasn't available to us or to me. But what they
would have to establish was and to satisfy a court
or to reopen have anybody charged. I can't see that happening.
But they would have to overturn They don't have to
(55:30):
produce medical evidence, overturning the decisions and the filings of
doctor Ian Wilkie and the coroner who were at the
time on the scene and actually viewed the body. So
how they're going to overturn that kind of evidence and
reach a conclusion of murder is beyond my belief. I mean,
(55:50):
I can't believe that they could ever. Doesn't matter. I
know there's been a lot of these developments in forensic
and scientific investigations, but how they have tickso going to
be able to overturn a forty year old case that
was closed is really beyond my belief.
Speaker 2 (56:10):
It was doubt in the mind of another officer though,
that led to Margaret's case being reopened as a murder
in two thousand and three. Before becoming Queensland's my senior
Detective and Assistant Commissioner overseeing State Crime Operations Command, Peters
Wendell's had been a detective in Rockhampton in the nineteen seventies.
(56:31):
He didn't work on Margaret's case or Rosy's case, but
both left a mark on him. He could see connections
and he wanted answers for the sake of justice and
the women's families. So Person X lived near Margaret Kirstenfeldt
when she died violently in nineteen seventy eight, and he
(56:53):
was the last person seen with Rosy before she drowned
after he tied her arms behind her back in nineteen
seventy five. But there's another major reason why Person X
raises a red flag for me. If you have information
(57:38):
about the Margaret kirstenfeld case, please let us know. Email
us at Pendulum Podcast at gmail dot com or go
to sevenews dot com dot au. Forward Slash Pendulum presenter
(58:01):
and executive producer Paula Donovan, writer and producer Sally Eels.
Sound design Mark Wright, Graphics Jason Blandford, producer Annette Caltabiano.
Transcripts Charlie Dally Watkins. Our theme music is the Clock
(58:22):
is Ticking by dark Org Music. See our show notes
for full music credits. With thanks to seven Years Brisbane
In nineteen seventy eight, a young mum dies violently in
a small Queensland town. Suicide or murder. What happened to
Margaret Kirstenfeld? Someone knows? This is Pendulum Episode ten. Pendulum
(00:43):
wishes to advise that some listeners may find parts of
the following podcast episode Confronting It contains details of sexual
violence and trauma. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander. Listeners are
also advised that reference is made to deceased Indigenous people. However,
names have been withheld or disguised.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I'm Paulodonoman. At the time of Margaret's death, Person X
was living two doors down from her home on Serena
Beach Road. They were acquainted but didn't know each other well.
In the eyes of local detectives, Person X was immediately
(01:27):
someone to investigate because of something that happened three years
earlier in nineteen seventy five, in the central Queensland city
of Rockhampton. Rockhampton or Rocky as it's known, is the
beef capital of Australia. You'll find plenty of statues of
(01:48):
bulls around town. The city sits on the Tropic of
Capricorn and straddles the Fitzroy River, which has a long
history of flooding, particularly during cyclone season. In summer, temperatures
can peak above forty degrees celsius. These days, Rocky boasts
(02:12):
the population of around eighty thousand. In the mid nineteen seventies,
about fifty thousand people lived there. It's one of Queensland's
oldest cities and it's always been a hub. On April nineteenth,
nineteen seventy five, the body of a young woman was
(02:32):
found in the Fitzroy River. She was naked and her
arms were bound tightly behind her back. Reeds and sticks
were found in her vagina and rectum.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Her arms were trussed behind her back with her slip
which had been knotted twice behind her shoulders. They believed
she had been thrown into the river like this and
left to drought. Doctors in a post mortem yesterday found
her body bore traces of perverted sexual indignities. The body
is believed to be that of an Aboriginal woman aged
about twenty eight. A fisherman found the body at five
(03:05):
forty five on Saturday, caught in mangroves on the north
bank of the river at Lakes Creek. She's believed to
have been killed near where the body was found. The
body had apparently been carried into the mangroves by the
tide and covered by mud and debris drifting on the tide.
Two blouses and a long white slip the woman was
wearing were gathered around her neck and shoulders. Her slip
(03:26):
had been tied around her arms just below the shoulders,
pulling her arms together behind her back and making any
arm movement impossible.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Police determined that she died about four days earlier, around
April the fourteenth, and witnesses gave statements. Publican Dorothy Vvash,
also known as mar Vivash, said one of her regular
male customers had been drinking with quote a young colored
(03:57):
woman at the Victoria Hotel on that date, and they
had left together with a carton of studies of beer
around nine pm. Bar attendant Pauline Ball provided similar evidence.
Taxi driver Ronald Redon said he'd given the woman and
man a lift from the Victoria Hotel to Lakes Creek Road,
(04:21):
near the railway station, which is right beside the Fitzroy River.
They had a carton of beer and even gave the
cave a study to other people Francis Hawkins and Rosalie
Cooper in a car driving past also reported seeing the
pair near the Lakes Creek Railway station. It wasn't long
(04:48):
before police tracked down a man on a train heading
west with a woman and her children. It was person X.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
Detectives who bought to train at DURINGA detained a man
traveling with his wife and two young children for questioning
about a macabre murder at Rockhampton. The DURINGA drama followed
discovery of the naked and bound body of an Aboriginal
woman in the Fitzroy River at five pm on Saturday.
She was identified by fingerprints as twenty eight single of
(05:21):
no fixed address. Detectives found that sexual depravities had been
committed on her. A Brisbane CIB Homicide Squad detective flew
to Rockhampton with a pathologist to help in the investigation.
The investigators checked round several Rockhampton hotels and found that
a man traveling with his wife and children had left
(05:43):
Rockhampton by train. Detectives sped one hundred and twelve kilometers
west of Rockhampton to Juringa At nine forty five last night.
They intercepted the train and detained a man in Rockhampton
Magistrate's Court today Mister Loane s m minded a man
twenty five until next Monday on a charge of murder.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
It is worth noting that doctor Ian Wilke, the pathologist
involved in Margaret Kirstenfeld's matter, also conducted the autopsy in
this case, and scientific officer Nil Raywood, who studied the
Kurstonfelt crime scene, examined the sticks found inside the Fitzroy
River body, though forty five years on he can't recall it.
Speaker 5 (06:27):
Hello, yeah, hi PAULA.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
One person who does have very sharp memories of April
nineteen seventy five is the man who gave the young
woman and Person X a lift. Taxi driver Ron Reardon.
Speaker 6 (06:40):
Yeah, Well, I was a prageman and just for part
time work. I started driving taxis of a night. Then
I eventually took up full time taxi driving.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Ron's taxi was a Black Valiant, one of only two
in Rockampton. He taken up driving in late nineteen seventy four,
a matter of months before the woman's death.
Speaker 6 (07:02):
Well, on that night I was parked on a taxi
rank across from the Victoria Hotel. I got a call
from the taxi base and for a fair at Victoria Hotel,
and when I looked across, I could see a couple
standing on the footpath. So I just went over and
(07:23):
picked the couple up, and they asked me to drive
them down to Layte S Creek, which I did down
Lastick Road and then they told me to pull up
I think there was an old house up on the
left near the railway line. They just asked me to
drop them off there. On the way down there, they
were like very friendly, offered me a beer. They had
(07:44):
a six pack of beer with him. I couldn't drink
because I'm driving, so the man was pretty persistent have
a beer driving and I said, look, I'll take one.
I put in the glove box of the car. But
they were in very good spirits. There was no problem
there as if they were going to a party. They
were like in very very good mood. From what I observed,
they weren't drunk, they were just happy. He did stand
(08:08):
out because I think he seemed to be a little
bit tallish, very bit. He was like, it's a very
good looking in these days, tall and youngish and sandy
blondie hair. I don't know what the man was wearing,
but I do remember the lady was very well dressed
(08:30):
because the clothes she had on. The clothes were like
you could wear to a nightclub or to a wedding
or something, not the sort of clothes you wear to
a hotel with a bar, you know, normalous jeans and
thongs or whatever. She's very well dressed that night.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
One said music didn't play in the pubs back then.
There was a public bar where the men usually drank,
and more of a lounge bar down the side where
the women would congregate.
Speaker 6 (08:56):
Normally, them days were just men in the bar. Didn't
see tim any women drinking a bar. Back in seventy five.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
He recalled that at the time there were two pubs
in Rockhampton which were popular with Aboriginal and Islander patrons,
the Ponderosa Hotel and the Victoria Hotel known as the VIT.
Speaker 6 (09:15):
There wasn't a lot of hotels in Rocky in them
days that the Aborigin and Ireland the people seemed to
drink at. They seemed to pick their hotels where they
were welcome.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Until that night, he'd never seen person X or the women.
Speaker 6 (09:30):
They were just laughing and goking, giggling and carrying on.
It was about it. You know, everything was happy. Nothing
would make you think that then think it was going
to go wrong. Well, I didn't know where they were
going because actually there was only one house there, and
I think the house was either owned by the council
(09:50):
or the railway, so I'm not sure. They're very isolated.
ILL often go past there and I think it still
looks vacant.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
When you dropped them off. Person X paid for the fair.
Then the woman had an unusual request.
Speaker 6 (10:05):
Yeah, she actually said will you come back? And picked
me up in an hour, But I think it was
a busy night and I sort of forgot, But I
thought where would I pick her up? Because there was
sort of nothing there where I dropped them off.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Ron got busy with other fairs and never went back.
But several days later, after a body was found in
the river, he was called into the office.
Speaker 6 (10:29):
The taxi company called me in and asked me if
I had picked up a couple on that night and
where I took him, and when I said yes, I
remember picking them up, and then they told me to
go to the police station and asked for I think
it was defective, and that's when I found out what
had happened.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
On Tuesday May twenty seven, nineteen seventy five. The case
was the subject of a committal hearing in the Magistrate's Court.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
A twenty five year old settler north rock Hampton was
committed for trial on a murder charge. At the completion
of evidence called by the Crown in the Magistrate's Court yesterday,
pleaded not guilty to having murdered at Lakes Creek near
Rockhampton on or about April fourteen. He was committed to
stand trial at the Criminal Sittings of the Supreme Court,
(11:19):
rock Hampton on August nineteen. In all, twenty witnesses were
called to give evidence before mister B. G. Waller sm
The body of a young colored woman was found on
the bank of the Fitzroy River on April nineteen, at
a spot about four hundred yards from where it was
alleged she was last seen alive. Death was stated to
be due to drowning. Most of the evidence from nine
(11:42):
witnesses yesterday concerned the movements of the deceased woman on
the evening of Monday, April fourteen. At the end of
the Crown case, Mister R. D. Hall, appearing, submitted that
there was insufficient evidence for committal that no reasonable jury
properly directed could bring in a verdict of guilty on
the charge of murder. Mister Wallace said he was satisfied
(12:03):
there was sufficient evidence to place them on trial.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
There was a similar but shorter report of the case
in a Brisbane newspaper.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
May twenty eighth, nineteen seventy five. Twenty five, A Fettler
of North Rockhampton was committed for trial on a murder charge.
At the completion of evidence called by the Crown in
the Magistrate's Court yesterday, he pleaded not guilty to a
charge of having murdered at Lakes Creek near Rockhampton about
April fourteen. He was committed to stand trial at the
(12:33):
Criminal settings of the Supreme Court beginning on August nineteen.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
We'll be using the pseudonym Rosie when we refer to
this woman who drowned in the Fitzroy River. There are
two reasons why. The first is a legal one. Naming
this victim may also identify a person X, which we
are not legally allowed to do. Secondly, Rosie was an
(13:04):
Aboriginal woman, and there is a practice among some Indigenous
communities that a deceased person's name is changed and their
image suppressed for a period of mourning. After many months
trying to track down family members, I managed to speak
with two of Rosy's relatives. Her niece, Debbie, was a
(13:26):
young girl when her aunt died. She's given us approval
to use the name Rosy as a pseudonym. How well
were you in nineteen seventy five when your aunt died?
Are you being born nineteen seventy five?
Speaker 7 (13:39):
I would have been Or that's a good one, I
would have been eleven.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Do you remember how her death impacted on your family?
Speaker 7 (13:48):
Well, that's the thing. My grandmother, my mother, never spoke
of her death till we started getting ova. Maybe my
oldest brothers may have known. I'm not sure, but we
only knew about she had passed away.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
She remembers her grandmother's sadness at Rosie's passing, but was
never told details of the death until now. Debbie recently
sat down with me to go through news clippings and
court documents of Rosie's case and was horrified at what
she learned.
Speaker 7 (14:21):
My first reaction, you know, I was angry, sometimes sad
because I didn't know about her and what had actually
happened to her. Then, when I seen the transcripts and
how the court proceeding was done, I found that was
unjust of my Auntie, uns for our family that we
(14:45):
didn't get any justice for her. I felt like she
was treated as a piece of meat. She just didn't
matter at all, And how someone could be so ignorant
to see the evidence that was put forward within the
So I was pretty angry about that no justice was
done for it at all.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
What was your reaction to your aunt being described as
a prostitute.
Speaker 7 (15:10):
My Auntie was never a prostitute. They portrayed there as
you know, this person when she was far from it.
I've never met my Auntie, but other people, family members
have spoken about her. But to be called a prostitute,
that was so wrong. The way, you know, an Aboriginal
(15:32):
woman is portrayed as this. It is so wrong, especially
in the media when they never took the time to
come and speak to family members. My grandmother was suffering
at that moment, her best friend, my uncle, No one
never came to speak to them. Yeah, it's just sad. Well,
you know, she was portrayed as a prostitute where she
(15:55):
was far far from it. An outgoing, kind person, generous
and you know, a little our hard worker. She was
a hard worker because in them days, we didn't have
any choices at that time. She was never a prostitute.
She was a woman that went out and enjoyed life.
She went out, she was a young girl going out,
(16:16):
you know, doing free wills, you know, and enjoying ourselves,
enjoying their company with their auntie, you know. And she
just happened to walk off with this lad or, the perpetrator,
and then slung into court and be called a prostitute. Now,
I feel that's wrong for a abitional woman to be
(16:36):
painted that picture when no one never knew her. And
I feel that in my own heart because how my
aunties were read. They were brought up real strict my mom.
You know, she was very protected of her younger sisters.
You know, it's very upsetting that they are to portray
he as a prostitute. I know that she wasn't when we,
(16:57):
as aborisinal people were probably I will class said, you know,
a well spoken young lady, well dressed, very quiet, never
made any trouble mind the our own business, and as
far from a prostitute, and so wrong she.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Wants her Auntie's story told.
Speaker 7 (17:14):
Also speaking with family members that knew Artie. She was
a very quiet person. She loved being around their family
and friends. She just loved life. Out of personality. She
always outgoing, she always stressed, really presentable. She also helped
(17:35):
in the community with various little jobs that needed to
be done on the community.
Speaker 5 (17:39):
That was it.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Sheberg Debbie Yep in Cherbay.
Speaker 7 (17:42):
And she she was getting a little bit mushal. Sorry,
she she just she was brought up in a Christian home.
Her grandmother will her mother was very was Christian. My
(18:02):
grandfather worked really hard too. Our family was brought up
in a strict household because of my grandmother's Christianity. She
helped out a lot when she could. But she loved fashion.
She loved sports, but she was in the marching girls.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Debbie tells me Rosie had been a member of the
Mergen in Paris marching girl team, which won a state
championship in nineteen sixty. She loved playing sports, going to church,
in the movies, and was well known and liked in
the community in which she grew up. After completing her schooling,
she worked as a domestic in various locations and liked traveling.
(18:46):
Debbie says Rosie's mother was a long standing member of
the local church and her father was a strict laura
abiding man who worked hard for his family.
Speaker 7 (18:55):
In a big family. She was one of nine. She
would have been the second and youngest sisters. There were
four sisters.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Did she have any children, did she marry?
Speaker 7 (19:05):
She didn't have any children. But by this time, you
know there was other nieces and plus my siblings.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Do you know how she came to be in Rockhampton.
Speaker 7 (19:16):
She went to Rockhampton to see their Auntie. That's what
brought her up to Rockampton.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
The case went to trial and the Supreme Court of
Queensland in Rockhampton on August twenty seventh, nineteen seventy five,
before Justice Kelly person X, represented by mister R. Greenwood,
was indicted on a charge of murdering Rosie. He pleaded
not guilty. Jurors were impaneled, All were men, and any
(19:52):
witness who wasn't white was described as a colored person.
At the time, these factors would not have raised an eyebrow.
It was the way things were done. But now looking back,
one can only wonder how a panel of white male
(20:13):
jurors before a white male judge and lawyers would look
upon a case involving a homeless, young Aboriginal woman regarded
by Manny as a prostitute. What perspectives would all of
these white men have taken into the courtroom. Soon after
(20:35):
the jury was impaneled, mister Greenwood, who represented person X,
raised a query, I was.
Speaker 8 (20:43):
Not able to glean how the crown or alleging that
my client caused the death of the deceased woman. He
opened that it would be alleged that she died from drowning.
I did not hear him put the proposition how the
accused is to alleged to have caused that drowning. If
your honor is to take a break, perhaps he could
give that some consideration during the course of the break.
(21:03):
I feel it is fundamental in this case for me
to be in a position to know exactly what proposition
along those lines the offense is called upon to meet.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
So what the defense is trying to determine is how
the prosecution case claims person X caused Rosy to drown
The court adjourned at eleven twenty one am, then resumed
ten minutes later with the Crown prosecutor saying, to make it.
Speaker 9 (21:30):
Quite clear, the Crown says that from the circumstances, from
the inferences, the common sense inferences you draw from the circumstances,
the only rational conclusion you can come to is that
the accused cause to enter the water of the river,
thus drowning a trust. That makes it clear that is
(21:50):
the Crown case.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
But the legal argument continued. The jury was retired at
eleven forty four am so that a question of law
could be clarified. Defense barrister mister Greenwood gave an account
of what he says happened between Person X and Rosie.
Speaker 8 (22:07):
The evidence suggests that this was their first meeting. There
was no noticeable antagonism or argument between them by the
taxi driver, who was the last person to seek alive.
In fact, the evidence was to the contrary that my
client had his arm around her and they were cuddling,
following an active intercourse between the accused and the deceased.
(22:29):
The decease suffered certain physical disabilities in as far as
she had or was found later to have in her
rectum and also her vagina. Portions of this reed material,
this stick material, which has been described that she was
physically distressed thereby, and that she was further debilitated by
having around the upper part of her body and around
(22:50):
her arms certain items of clothing which were, on the
admission of the accused, deliberately placed thereby. The deliberate acts
that the accused admit are limited to these, and there
is no suggestion that when the accused left the deceased
she was other than conscious.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
So Rosie was distressed and may have been in pain
after some unusual sexual activity that may not have been consensual.
Person X admitted tying Rosy's arms behind her back with
two separate knots, which he then looped together. He also
admitted to inserting a stick inside her genitals before leaving
(23:31):
her alive, apparently to call an ambulance. Mister Green would
argue that a jury could not be satisfied beyond reasonable
doubt that person X carried out a direct act which
forced Rosy into the water to drown. He also raised
a subject of intent, saying that murder could only result
(23:53):
if person X intended to kill. The defense then suggested
ways Rosy may be ended up in the water. He
said the tide was on the way in when person
X last saw Rosie in an area of thick mud,
and that she was.
Speaker 8 (24:11):
Waiting for the accused to return with the ambulance.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
But perhaps in a position.
Speaker 8 (24:15):
Where the tide took her away.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
He also said.
Speaker 8 (24:19):
There is nothing on which the jury could reject the
hypothesis that, for reasons of her own, after the accused left,
this woman, who was not restrained from being able to
get up and walk around, walked deliberately into the river.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
His reasoning was as follows. Firstly, Rosie had been in
and out of local hotels since opening time until after
eight pm. An evidence showed she was at the time.
Speaker 8 (24:46):
When she went on this escapade with the accused, considerably
the worse for wear from liquor. We know from the
statements of the accused to the police that she was
at one stage crying out for help, and we know
that she was di by these bonds around her. She
could have got to her feet, walked onto the jetty,
and there lost her balance and fallen in due to
(25:08):
her advanced state of being affected by alcohol.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
So here the defense is suggesting an accident. He also
claimed that the sticks found jammed into her rectum got
there by accident, too.
Speaker 8 (25:23):
So she could have toppled from the jetty into the
river as a result of alcohol, as a result of
the combined effect of alcohol and perhaps pain from what
cannot really be proven to the other than the accidental
entry of this item into her rear passage. There is
no evidence to explain that other than the accused explanation
that she inflicted that through her own agency, but one
(25:46):
in her vagina was admitted by him to be placed there.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
The defense also said that a head injury suffered by
Rosy may have been inflicted when she fell from the
jetty or while she was in the river.
Speaker 8 (25:59):
The accused deny causing it.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Here's mister Greenwood's second theory. Rosie was a prostitute who
had earlier in the evening given her body for the
amount of sixty cents. He then referred to the reeds
found in her vagina.
Speaker 8 (26:15):
She had also found herself in a debating situation this
interference with her private area. I would suggest this was
a most unfortunate woman in a most unfortunate set of circumstances,
who had become debased and perhaps humiliated in these circumstances,
and the theory of suicide must loom very strongly as
(26:35):
a reasonable theory.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
He suggested, a degraded and humiliated Rosy may have taken
her own life. However, mister Greenwood also told the court
that Person X was asked, did you.
Speaker 8 (26:50):
Have any conversation with her which might have led you
to believe that she could have taken her own life?
He answered, no, she seemed all write to me. That,
of course, is relevant to how she seemed to be
accused at the time he claims to have left her.
As to my hypothesis a possible suicide, a knowledge of
human nature would not have to be very deep for
(27:10):
one to realize that the situation could easily change, or
that the accused could have been mistaken about the matter.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Ultimately, mister Greenwood concluded by reiterating his argument, it cannot be.
Speaker 8 (27:23):
Said that a jury could safely come to the decision
beyond any reasonable doubt. That the only difference that could
be rationally drawn is that the accused deliberately placed that
has ceased in the river.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Mister Dodds, the Crown prosecutor, then moved to counter mister
Greenwood's claims. Before doing so, however, he asked the judge, has.
Speaker 9 (27:44):
Your honor not seen the photographs nor nor should I.
Speaker 10 (27:48):
This is because I am dealing with the mutter on
the Crene Opening.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
So Justice Kelly had not seen photographs of the scene
of Rosy's body, the injuries she'd suffered, the way she
was tied up. Wouldn't such photos be helpful when considering
the point of law that was raised prosecuted. Dodds went
on to point out that person X had not been
(28:13):
truthful in his admissions.
Speaker 9 (28:15):
There is firstly a circumstance that she has the stick
in her anus, and his description of how that happened,
which I submit, is unlikely. It is unlikely that such
a thing could penetrate in that fashion, in the way
that has been described by him. Secondly, there is the
evidence that he placed the stick in her vagina. Thirdly,
(28:36):
there is the fact that he tied her up in
the fashion which he describes. He offers these explanations after
he is made aware that Detective Bolton knows these things,
that these had in fact been found about the body.
Speaker 8 (28:49):
In my submission.
Speaker 9 (28:50):
The explanations are not common sense that he not just
stand up. He offers no reason, he says, he can
offer no reason for breaking the stick off and putting
it inside her vagina. He offers a reason for tying
her up to stop her hurting herself. In my submission,
it just does not make sense to tie her up
in that fashion for that reason. So we have a
(29:12):
position where he is there with her, the body is
found days later with sticks. In these positions, and apparently
that clothing tide around the arms, he offers explanations which
I submit do not make.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Sense, mister Dudd said, the jury would be entitled to
draw the inference that he is not telling the truth.
Speaker 9 (29:33):
In all common sense. The jury, I submit, would say,
we do not accept that the tying was done for
the reason he said it was done, and we do
not accept that because it just does not make sense,
firstly to tie her in that fashion. For that reason,
the jury could also look to the circumstances that he
left her there tied, walked some distance, intending as he said,
(29:54):
to get an ambulance, changed his mind, and went home,
leaving her there. The jury could look at that circumstance also,
I submit, and say to themselves, we do not accept
that in these circumstances he just walked away and changed
his mind about getting an ambulance, that he went home
and did absolutely nothing. They could say, we just do
not accept that he was going to get an ambulance
(30:14):
at all, and we do not accept that he tied
her up for this reason that he supplied.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Justice Kelly then asked a question, So.
Speaker 10 (30:24):
You see that the Jewish unfair that the reason he
tad their arms was to impeter where else she was
in the river and thus closet to drene.
Speaker 9 (30:32):
What I am saying is that the inference that the
accused caused her to enter the water and thus dran
our weigh sufficiently any other available inference.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Later, the judge suggested, but there's.
Speaker 10 (30:45):
Not any evidence of motive.
Speaker 8 (30:47):
There is no evidence of motive.
Speaker 9 (30:49):
No, but there is, in my submission sufficient evidence for
the jury to be able to find, to the exclusion
of any other inference, that the accused caused the death
of the deceased.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
The quote A journed for lunch at twelve fifty PM,
during which time Justice Kelly considered the submissions from the
defense council. At two thirty PM, in the absence of
the jury, court resumes with the decision from the judge.
Speaker 10 (31:17):
To my mind, the evidence opened is such that there
are various possibilities open as to the manner in which
the deceased met her death, and that the jury properly directed,
could not properly be satisfied beyond a recental doubt that
the accused court of death, either directly or indirectly, that
being so, the jury would necessarily find accused not guilty
(31:37):
both of murder and manslaughter.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
The indictment was withdrawn, The jury was informed and retired.
Then at two thirty nine pm, will.
Speaker 8 (31:48):
The accused stand?
Speaker 10 (31:52):
You have discharged upon this indictment.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
The murder charge was dropped. The court was adjourned at
two forty pm, a matter of hours after the case began,
and Person X walked away. A Freeman taxi driver, Ron Readon,
had been sitting outside the courtroom a witness, waiting to
(32:20):
be called to give evidence, when a dejected looking police
officer came looking for him.
Speaker 7 (32:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (32:26):
I was sitting outside the courtroom and a policemen come
out and just said you're right to go. You won't
be needed. He's got up. I didn't know what to say.
I said, oh, he said no, you can go, and
as I actually walked out down the stairs, he followed
behind me.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Rosie's death was formally announced with a funeral notice in
the Rockhampton Bulletin.
Speaker 11 (32:55):
The relatives and friends of missus and family of Sherberg
respectfully invited to attend a service for her beloved daughter
and their sister sister in law Aren't and relative at
the North Rockhampton Cemetery this Thursday afternoon, commencing at three o'clock.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
On a road trip to gather research with this podcast,
I visited Rockhampton with my friend and producer Annette Caltabiano
and went to the cemetery to try to find Rosy's grave.
It is a huge, huge cemetery. We had a map
of the plots, but it wasn't easy. What's ending.
Speaker 12 (33:38):
Let's just keep walking down here because maybe this represents
maybe middle section, I don't know, and we're not sure
if she'll have a marked grave or not.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
So well, that's the other difficulty is actually she could
have been buried in unmarked grave, which will make this
exercise somewhat difficult.
Speaker 12 (33:56):
So there are some graves here that are marked, but
there's a lot that aren't.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Well, and it was number coming to the end of
the rod.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
There's nine.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yeah, I wonder if she's back this way. Well, there's
a few sites here that are unmarked. Okay, so we
need to look on this side. Now that's this side, Jim.
There's quite a few unmarked graves here. The cemetery is huge,
(34:25):
particularly compared to the one where Margaret Kursenfeld is buried.
This outside of Jan Dowie and see graves as far
as the eye can see. Sometimes for those who couldn't
afford or whose families couldn't afford a proper burial, they
were often given a pauper's grave funded by the government,
which would basically mean it was an unmarked grave. We
(34:48):
returned the next day and asked for help. With the
help of counsel employees, we have now pinpointed Her final
resting place is one of about thirty five thousand people
buried in this one hundred and thirty year old cemetery,
hemmed in by two major arterial roads. According to cemetery records,
(35:08):
she was buried here ten days after her body was
found on the bank of Rockhampton's Fitzroy River on April fourteenth,
nineteen seventy five. Rosy's grave is unmarked, with nothing to
say who she was or who loved her. In the
twenty eight years she was alive. It's really sad and infuriating.
(35:33):
Rosie's niece, Debbie, tells me her grandmother, Rosie's mother, desperately
wanted her daughter's body return to Sherburg, four hundred and
fifty kilometers away. This never happened.
Speaker 7 (35:47):
We strongly believe that she'd never got justice. A family
never got justice. My grandmother never got justice because of
the where can I put it? The system that was
put in place for our Aboriginal people in the first
place is feel like we're nobody on this earth, in
(36:08):
the society, and we still looked at as nothing as
anybody as people in the society in this world. I
know for a fact that my grandmother hasn't got justice.
When she tried, my uncle tried to help her. But
MIAUNTI still never got justice.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
How do you mean your uncle try to help her.
Speaker 7 (36:29):
He was trying to communicate with the inspector that was
on Aberishal community.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
There was a police inspector, Debbie.
Speaker 7 (36:39):
No, they they we used to call them inspectors because
they were like protectors of the community that was still
running Aboriginal affairs on the community.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
So that included controlling your grandmother's finances.
Speaker 7 (36:51):
That's right. They controlled our finance, even their pension. They
controlled everything because my grandmother, being on their community, must
have been well a well respected person, and they didn't
give her the opportunity to bury Auntie back home on
our country, on Walker Walker Country. And you know, from
(37:12):
my uncle, it was very disheartening because he offered, you know,
to help my grandmother because he was living in Brisbane
at the time and working. My mother and my aunties
looked at my uncle as their brother, even though they
were first cousins. So he was trying to do everything
he can to get her body back to share it
(37:32):
to be buried, and that was refused through in them days,
it was the office and an inspector that was in
the office at that time.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
So Rosie wasn't returned home for burial because the government
inspector was in control of her family's finances. Why because
at the time, Aboriginal families were not allowed to make
decisions about money, and the inspector did not agree that
bringing Rosie's body home was a financially sound decision. But
(38:03):
her family still wants her back.
Speaker 7 (38:06):
I have spoken to my uncle about it, and I've
spoke to my older cousin Steven. I've spoken to a
cousin over in Western Australia. I said to my uncle,
I said, we may not get any justice, but I
want to go on my grandmother's wishes to have a
daughter buried where their parents are, any other extended family
(38:28):
are buried, and we really want justice. If something can
bring the case alive again, you know, that'll be a
miracle and we might finally get justice for our auntie,
bring the perpetrator to a full, grow and core procedure.
But at the end of the day, my grandmother's wish
was to take your daughter back home and give her
(38:49):
a proper burial. My grandmother passed away in nineteen eighty three.
We've never spoken in them days. We weren't allowed to
speak about anything unless we were asked to. We've never
had any input inward because I think my grandmother would
have been traumatized of everything and you know, not fully
(39:11):
understanding the legal procedures through everything that fails most of
us abigal people when we depend on a system to
be treated as equal. You know, we try to be
upstanding citizens and we're just disappointed in the system when
we know that the system should be there to do
the right thing by all people within the legal system.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Do you remember whether your any of your family attended
that court that day.
Speaker 7 (39:40):
I'm not sure, but I think my grandmother and my
auntie did go to Rockampton one day. My grandmother was
on a pension, so she couldn't really travel us. She
had most of her grandchildren with there at this time too.
She wouldn't have had time to stay away long time
from her grandchildren.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Did you of what their reaction was when the charges
were dropped against the man accused of murdering her.
Speaker 7 (40:06):
I think my uncle was just angry with the situation.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
We've also received a written statement from Rosie's cousin, who
grew up with her and remembers her well. We've taken
out any references that may be identifying.
Speaker 13 (40:22):
My name is Lewis. I lived in the same home
asge during the early nineteen fifties to mid nineteen sixties.
I am still to this day troubled bos murder in
Rockampton all those years ago, also by the lack of
justice and dignity that was afforded her by those responsible
for upholding law and order, and the courts for not
pursuing more vigorously justice for my deceased cousin. They claimed
(40:45):
she was a prostitute. That, plus the fact she was
an obvious aboriginal in appearance, did not order well for her.
If they could demonize and make her less human, would
make it easier for all to callously disregard her very
basic human right. Say that I knew very well their
claim that she was a prostitute is not that I
knew or would expect from her. We were raised in
(41:08):
a very religious environment, with her mother ensuring that we
attend the Australian Inland Mission Church at least twice on
Sundays and once during the week. Her mother, Auntie Jane,
would also be quoting Bible passages in the meantime, we
all held Auntie Jane in high regard, and like me,
would not do anything like prostituting to embarrass her mother.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
He goes on to clarify that it shouldn't matter anyway
whether a person is a prostitute or not, that everybody
should be entitled to and afforded the protection of the law,
justice and fair treatment from all levels of government. He
also explains his family's distress at not being able to
(41:49):
bring Rosy back to her home country.
Speaker 13 (41:52):
My Auntie Jane expressed to me that she would have
liked to bury back home in the cemetery at Cherbourg.
She however, had no money or resource to do exactly that.
The only collateral she had was her fortnightly federal government pension.
I too had no extra money to help my Auntie Jane,
as I had four children of my own to support.
I was not in the position to help, and most
other family members were not able to assist with her
(42:14):
request as well. I said to her, let's go down
to the office to see if they can help. So
I accompanied Arnie Jane down to the office as it
was called back then. It was occupied by bureaucrats doing
what I perceived to be administration work. However, these bureaucrats
had extraordinary powers over residents in the settlements, with no
regard for cultural values or tradition. To my understanding, back then,
(42:35):
they would not have had any cultural training whatsoever, making
decisions based on everyday life of the residents. In fact,
they had more power over residence than the Queensland Police
and they would let you know about it. They could
separate families with a signature. This was intimidation and control
of residence lives and was an ever present concern to
the residents. So with this knowledge, we approached a bureaucrat
(42:56):
with the request to assist Auntie Jane to bring her
daughter back to Sherbourg for the bars. Unfortunately, with all
the powers and resources of the Queensland Government, he callously
and cold heartedly refused to assist her. I pleaded with
him to use her fortnightly federal government pension to take
out a determined amount until it was paid off, but
it fell on deaf ears. My Auntie was crushed, but
(43:17):
this little old Aboriginal woman still maintained her dignity and
Christian values while I was ranting about the ineptitude of
that bureaucrat. From there, it was a mad dash to
take my Auntie and my wife to Gimpi to catch
the overnight train to Rockampton to attend the funeral. Justice
delayed is justice denied. My beloved Auntie Jane has passed on.
All of your sisters have passed on not seeing justice prevail.
(43:41):
I hope somebody can read this and say, yes, she
deserves justice and finally right the wrong that was done
to this woman. If I was confronted with the accused
of the murder, I would ask, why did you brutalize
my cousin in the manner that you did. Why did
you not let the family have some dignity in their loss?
You are truly an evil being.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
Rosie's niece Debbie, also has a message for the man
once charged with murdering her auntie.
Speaker 7 (44:15):
This is sad, but you put us to our family
through hell and doing this to my auntie like a
piece of meat. I won't wish anything bad on you
because I think karma can come around, and I just
live your guilty, guilty life. Yeah, that's it. I'm sorry,
I can't.
Speaker 4 (44:39):
Ron.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
The taxi driver who gave Rosie her final trip, said
the case didn't seem to create a ripple among the
residents of Rockhampton. Back in the nineteen seventies, there was
no outrage. Person X was still accepted.
Speaker 6 (44:54):
I did see him after that drinking outside of Hope
with a group of Aboriginal and Island of people, which
I didn't understand because they knew what he'd done, and
in them days, I didn't think he'd be around for
(45:15):
too long. I thought the payback system would work. I
thought he'd have be an outcast or who would have
left down and not still hanging around Rocky. But apparently
he must have been accepted in with the Aboriginal people.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
It wasn't the only time Ron saw Person X in
the weeks after the court case.
Speaker 6 (45:34):
I was a little bit weighed after that when he
got off free.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
His fear was that Person X would remember he was
a key witness who identified him.
Speaker 6 (45:43):
I picked him up another time from the Ponderosa Hotel
and I actually drove him over to the Victoria Hotel.
I wasn't one to knock back a bear, but I
realized he didn't recognize me or anything like that, so
it wasn't a problem.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
One night Ron saw him brawling outside a pub.
Speaker 6 (46:01):
He was actually out on the foot path with a
group of people. They were fighting. He was involved in
the pipe.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
When you say he was involved in a fight, was
he actually fighting or was he being attacked?
Speaker 6 (46:13):
No, he was fighting there. He was fighting. It was
like just a bit of a brawl going on. I
didn't hang around. I think I picked the bear up
whoever I was picking up, and left, But I just
knew it was him, and I knew what he'd done.
I thought under. I could understand what type of person
he was.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
But within a matter of months person X moved on.
Ron never saw him again. But he could not forget Rosie.
Speaker 6 (46:39):
Because it's always been on my mind why he got off.
I could not ever understand that, so, you know, forty
something is always thought about it. I can still remember
her face and how she was dressed. Damn, I just
don't think that he got justice.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
When Margaret Kirsenfeld died in Serena in nineteen seventy eight,
it was the detectives from Rockcampton who highlighted the person
ex connection and his history in regards to Rosie's case.
This is how former Serena police officer Peter Howard remembers it.
Speaker 14 (47:27):
One of the investigators, perhaps two of them, from Rockampton,
had been involved in an investigation of the death of
an Aboriginal woman in Rockhampton, and this person was actually
charged in relation to that death and subsequently was not
(47:48):
convicted of that murder by the time the postborning examination
come back. There were aspects of that death in Rockampton
and the injuries Margaret Kirstenfel would have had that had
striking similarities.
Speaker 2 (48:06):
Can you elaborate a little bit more on the nature
of those injuries.
Speaker 14 (48:10):
Foreign objects inserted into both those women, Vagina.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Did the investigators take that man into custody to interview him?
Do you know what happened?
Speaker 4 (48:22):
No?
Speaker 14 (48:22):
Look, I know he was spoken to, but I'm just
not sure how far that was pursued.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
Hello, Peter ib was a plain close Constable Roor Campton
cib in February nineteen seventy eight and a company detective
Sergeant Clarie Williams to Serena for the Kurston Felt.
Speaker 5 (48:42):
Matter, and two of us went up there to give
him a hand, just as that didn't inquiries that wouldn't
have to make.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
While he wasn't directly involved in the investigation into Rosie's
death three years earlier, he knew a lot about it.
He'd helped to pull her body out of the Fitzroy River,
and he could see clear links between Rosy's case and Margaret's.
Speaker 5 (49:05):
I knew about the one in Rocky Eampton in the
same name. Come up, you know I think that killed her.
I reckon, he's killed it. DMA, Well, it's the same way.
And he said, at one place Rocky, next one he's
up in Serena and There's two women died and they
both got interference with their vagina. Just seems strange to me.
Speaker 12 (49:29):
You know.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
Ivy says homicide detectives were quick to run with the
suicide theory, even though he and Clarie Williams tried to
fight it.
Speaker 5 (49:37):
Clary and I think we were the only two disagree
with the conference of that it was suicide. I don't know.
Clary and I disagree with what they said. Made ourselves known,
but we didn't like it.
Speaker 12 (49:49):
You know.
Speaker 5 (49:50):
They weren't happy, and that was about all we could do.
Speaker 2 (49:54):
Ivy is now a retired grandfather battling cancer. A year ago,
he was given only months to live. Fortunately, he's managed
to defy that prognosis. He says. When Margaret's case was
reopened as a murder more than a decade ago, police
got in touch, and in recent months homicide detectives have
(50:16):
again contacted him. I interviewed Clary Williams in two thousand
and seven. Back then, he told me he always believed
Margaret had been murdered.
Speaker 15 (50:29):
The uniform police thought she was murdered. Some of the
detectives did too. The position of the body and the
nature of the injuries didn't indicate suicide to me.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
For Williams, there was a distinct link to Rosy's case
and the proximity of Person X living just meters from
Margaret when she died rang along Bells.
Speaker 15 (50:54):
And the fact she had vaginal injuries, and the similarities
were there, the whole situation didn't look like suicide.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
William says he called Person X in for cursory questioning,
but Albert Barkie and Person X provided an alibi, something
to do with work on the railway between Serena and Marlborough.
He cannot remember whether the alibi was checked. William says
there wasn't enough evidence to hold Person X, so police
(51:26):
released him. The Rockhampton detectives made further inquiries and spoke
with the de facto wife of Person X the day
after Margaret's death. She had told them she had washed
his clothes the night before. However, Williams and Ivy could
(51:46):
not recall whether Person X had asked her to wash
his clothes, if it was out of the ordinary for
her to do his laundry on a Friday night, or
if his clothes were stained with blood. Williams said they
returned to Serena the following day, the day before Valentine's Day,
(52:07):
and took a statement from Person x's de facto. But
once the suicide theory was advanced in Margaret's case, the
matter was out of their hands. I spoke to Clary
Williams more recently on the phone. He's now eighty five
years old. His memory is fading, but his position that
(52:28):
Margaret was murdered had not changed, as he told me
in two thousand six, Williams again spoke of a gun
belt with blood on it that had been found weeks
after Margaret's death had been declared as suicide. He described
it as a leather rifle sling with blood on it
that had possibly turned up at Person x's house. One
(52:52):
of the Serena uniform police officers, who also thought Margaret's
death was a murder, contacted Williams at the Rockhampton CIB.
The officer told him about the bloodstains gun belt. William
said he told the officer to contact the homicide squad
in Brisbane. And if you recall from episode nine the
(53:13):
statement of Marsha Breed when she was talking about the
hunt for a prowler on the Thursday night before Margaret's death.
Speaker 11 (53:20):
I saw the man had a gun and he had
a bullet belt around his waist.
Speaker 2 (53:25):
She's referring to person X. So what happened to this
blooded gun belt? Former Serena constables Peter Howard and Craig
Robertson can't remember it, but they weren't the only police
officers in Serena at the time. We're still trying to
find out. Retired homicide Squad detective Keith Smith remembers the
(53:50):
division among police about the cause of Margaret's death and
the questions raised about Person X.
Speaker 16 (53:57):
The final fighting is Doctor Wilkie were questioned by the
local detectives who were strongly of the opinion that Kirsten
Felt had been murdered. Their opinion was reinforced by the
fact that they had identified a male person who lived
nearby who had been friendly and had an association of
some kind with kirston film. Now aparently the same man
(54:22):
had previously been known to detectives as a first of
interest in the suspicious depth of a woman whose body
with some injuries had been recovered from the Fitzroy River
in Rockampton in recent times. I don't have any personal
knowledge of that particular matter, but this was what could
(54:45):
be described as circumstantial evidence had unsubstantiated by any direct evidence,
but they were seen by the local detective as more
than pure coincidence.
Speaker 7 (54:54):
He said.
Speaker 2 (54:55):
He admired the tenacity of the rock Canton detectives, but
he could not be suayed. Even now. Smith wonders how
the Curson Felt case could be investigated as a murder.
Speaker 16 (55:07):
Well, I don't know what their evidence is that she
was murdered unless I've unless they've discovered some evidence it
wasn't available to us or to me. But what they
would have to establish was and to satisfy a court
or to reopen have anybody charged. I can't see that happening.
But they would have to overturn They don't have to
(55:30):
produce medical evidence, overturning the decisions and the filings of
doctor Ian Wilkie and the coroner who were at the
time on the scene and actually viewed the body. So
how they're going to overturn that kind of evidence and
reach a conclusion of murder is beyond my belief. I mean,
(55:50):
I can't believe that they could ever. Doesn't matter. I
know there's been a lot of these developments in forensic
and scientific investigations, but how they have tickso going to
be able to overturn a forty year old case that
was closed is really beyond my belief.
Speaker 2 (56:10):
It was doubt in the mind of another officer though,
that led to Margaret's case being reopened as a murder
in two thousand and three. Before becoming Queensland's my senior
Detective and Assistant Commissioner overseeing State Crime Operations Command, Peters
Wendell's had been a detective in Rockhampton in the nineteen seventies.
(56:31):
He didn't work on Margaret's case or Rosy's case, but
both left a mark on him. He could see connections
and he wanted answers for the sake of justice and
the women's families. So Person X lived near Margaret Kirstenfeldt
when she died violently in nineteen seventy eight, and he
(56:53):
was the last person seen with Rosy before she drowned
after he tied her arms behind her back in nineteen
seventy five. But there's another major reason why Person X
raises a red flag for me. If you have information
(57:38):
about the Margaret kirstenfeld case, please let us know. Email
us at Pendulum Podcast at gmail dot com or go
to sevenews dot com dot au. Forward Slash Pendulum presenter
(58:01):
and executive producer Paula Donovan, writer and producer Sally Eels.
Sound design Mark Wright, Graphics Jason Blandford, producer Annette Caltabiano.
Transcripts Charlie Dally Watkins. Our theme music is the Clock
(58:22):
is Ticking by dark Org Music. See our show notes
for full music credits. With thanks to seven Years Brisbane
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