October 6, 2019 • 60 mins
Word about the Margaret Kirstenfeldt case is spreading. More past and present Sarina residents are coming forward to share memories - some of which are shocking. For the first time, we hear from the children who resided with Person X.
Warning: This episode contains disturbing and graphic memories of abuse.
Credits:
Presenter / Investigative Crime Journalist - Paula Doneman
Producer / Writer - Sally Eeles
Sound Design - Marc Wright
TV reporter - Mackenzie Ravn
Graphics - Jason Blandford
With thanks to:
The team at 7 News Brisbane, Annette Caltabiano, Georgia Done, Letitia Wallace, Susan Bush, Charlie Dally-Watkins, Alex Wright Media, Mackay City Council Library.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
In nineteen seventy eight, a young mum dies violently in
a small Queensland town suicide or murder. What happened to
Margaret kirstenfeld Someone knows? This is Pendulum episode twelve. Pendulum
(00:43):
wishes to advise that some listeners may find parts of
the following podcast episode, Confronting It contains details of sexual
violence and trauma. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander. Listeners are
also advised that reference is made to deceased Indigenous people. However,
names have been withheld or disguised.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I'm Paula Donoman. This podcast series and the TV stories
that have accompanied it on seven News has sparked a
new conversation about Margaret Kirstenfeldt's death, especially in two rural
Queensland communities, in gen Dowie, where Margaret grew up, and
(01:30):
more particularly in Serena where she died. Some of the
discussion we've heard through the grapevine or as a result
of social media postings. Other information has come directly via email. Previously,
(01:52):
when we've visited Serena, it's been hard to track down
anyone who remembers the case or wants to, and those
who did clammed up pretty quickly, but things have been
changing and we are so grateful. Thank you to everybody
who has come forward with snippets of information or the
(02:15):
names of long forgotten friends and neighbors. As a result
of community help, we have managed to track down some
of the children who lived with Person X. We can't
reveal their names in case it identifies Person X, and
(02:37):
also because these people are survivors of child abuse. What
we've uncovered are childhood memories that are traumatic and horrific. However,
we would like to make it clear that these allegations
raised with the Pendulum Podcast have not been investigated by police,
(03:02):
nor had any complaints been made to authorities. At the
time we wrote this episode. Five children, two boys, and
three girls lived with Person X. They were aged between
five and eleven. One of the boys has since died
in sad circumstances, one of the girls has two Another
(03:26):
of the girls is now battling a drug addiction. They
were the three youngest. I have spoken to the oldest
boy and girl who lived in that home. Will be
referring to them as John and Jane, though that's not
their real names. John says he was eleven when he
(03:46):
lived with Person X. Jane was a year younger. Person
X was not their father. They were the sons and
daughters of a woman who was his partner for at
least a year or so. She was older than Person
X and had a large family In the late nineteen seventies,
(04:08):
Some of the older siblings lived with the elder sister
and her husband in another town. We're not sure how
long she was with him, but she did leave him
in Serena. Her daughter says this is because of what
he'd done to her family. Thanks to a leed from
a Serena resident, we were able to find family members
(04:31):
on social media. She was one of the older ones
who lived in central Queensland. We'll call her Jess. When
I contacted Jess, she thought it was a sign. You see.
A week earlier, her brother John had phoned out of
the blue and said he thought he should go to
police and tell them about the treatment he and his
(04:52):
siblings had suffered at the hands of person X. He'd
never heard of this podcast, but he'd seen story about
Margaret Kirstenfelt on seven News and images of Serena had
triggered memories. Now, this news story did not even mention
Person X. It spoke of Margaret and the police case
(05:13):
surrounding her death, but it was enough for John to
contact his sister and discuss whether he should come forward
to tell police about his mother's former partner, how close
he lived to Margaret, and how brutal he was. John
is a shy man and doesn't want to be identified,
(05:35):
but said we could use the information he told me
for this podcast. Some of this information has been paraphrased.
Some of it is a reading of the actual comments
he made during our phone conversation.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
He was my mother's partner at the time. I'm not
sure how they met. The only thing I knew was
that my brother in law didn't like him. There were
room as he murdered an Aboriginal woman in Rockhampton. I
was living at my sister's place and he came around
one night and my brother in law whacked him on
the stairs and threw him out of the yard. Then
my mother left and took us with them moved to
(06:09):
Serena to live with them.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
John remembers that Person X was a fettler, worked on
the railways, and life in Serena was good when he
wasn't around.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
It was a good place to grow up. He had
good friends. It was a country town. Go play in
the bush and run through the cane fields. Yeah, outside
of the home it was good, and sometimes it was
good at home when he'd go away for work, sometimes
for a couple of weeks.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
He said Person X was a violent predator, beating the
boys and praying on the girls.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
He was a bad man. He was a violent man.
I turned the TV on one day and he jumps
up and knocks me to the ground and starts booting
me in the guts, you know, booting me around the body.
Those sort of things would set him off. He was
sort of controlling. Had to be his way. One other
thing is he used to lock us in the dog
shed for several hours, me and my brother sometimes at night.
(07:04):
But outside of the house he was good, even when
we had visitors. He was the perfect gentleman, perfect man.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
If their mother went out, John remembers he and his
brother would barricade their sisters in a bedroom so Person
X couldn't get to them.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
He wasn't very nice. He could be violent sometimes, especially
when mother wasn't around. He was trying to do things
to my sisters that we didn't like. We tried to
protect them. You know, one night he was attacking my sister.
I walked in and turned the light on and told
my sister to get up and go back into the room.
And I thought he was going to attack me again,
but he didn't. I don't know why. Must have felt guilty.
(07:43):
He was a tall man, pretty fit, hard working, tough man.
It was better when our older brothers come to visit
and family. He sort of kept his distance.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
But despite what they endured, John and his siblings never
complained to their mum.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Sometimes heard her crying in her room. We never said nothing,
but she may have suspected him. I'm not sure. I
don't want to think bad of my mum.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
As he spoke of his memories, this man, now in
his fifties, broke down several times. It's clear that John
loved his mother and feels tortured by opening up, almost
as if he's betraying her. He is protective of her.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
No, we never really brought it up. Think she sort
of had suspicions. One day, he took my younger sister
for a walk through the cane fields walking our dogs,
and I remember when they came back, my mom took
my sister into her room and I walked in on
Mum checking her, checking her private parts, and she turned
around and growled at me. And I remember not long
(08:50):
after that we moved to Mackay until she found a
fair for us to go to Brisbane.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
John says Person X was a drunk, but his mother
rarely consumed alcohol. However, she did gamble and often played cards.
He distinctly remembers a night when his mother was out
and a teenage babysitter was looking after them.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
I remember we had a babysitter, a young girl, a
young white girl would have been probably fifteen. He tried
to rape her. I knew she went to the same
school as us, she was in a higher grade. Mum
was out and he was supposed to go to the pub,
but he came home early.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Person X told the children to go to bed. Soon
after John heard the teenager scream.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
I heard her scream from my mother's bedroom. We were
out of bed and didn't go to sleep for hours,
lying awake, and I could hear her screaming, telling him
to stop stop touching her, get off her and stop.
She was petrified, demanding to be taken home, which he did,
but I think he walked her left by ourselves and
(10:01):
walked her home. Yeah, it was pretty dark walking down
the street in back roads, cane fields all around. I
don't know what happened after they left. Don't remember her name.
Mother never spoke of her again.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
John can't remember Margaret Curson felt, but has a vague
recollection of the time she died.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
I remember the adults talking about her. I am sure
we played at her house. I don't remember her coming
to our house. When I see that article on the news,
I said to my sister, I said, my feeling it
was him. She was so close, two doors down and
a single mother. I wouldn't put it past him, especially
as he's been charged before. Just the way he was.
(10:45):
He was sleezy, you know. He was a very sleazy person,
very conniving, slimy, and he could be frightening without saying anything.
He would give you a look. I sort of had
a feeling something stuck in my mind. We also had
a prowler at the time running around Serena, and not
long after that murder happened, the prowling stopped. I couldn't
(11:07):
say it was him, because sometimes it happened when he
was home. He could have gone out when we were asleep.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
A few days after speaking with John on the phone,
his sister the one we're crawling, Jane, agreed to chat
with me. I met her at her home in Brisbane.
She also did not want her voice recorded, but said
we could use her comments. This is a reading of
some of them. Her memories of her childhood in Serena
(11:36):
and person X.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
What happened to us years ago? I put it at
the back of my head. I think it damaged the
youngest sister. She's on drugs, ice and on the streets.
There's nothing nice to say about him. He used to
do things he shouldn't touch us where he shouldn't touch us. Yeah,
it was mainly when my was asleep or mum was out. Yeah,
(12:02):
he used to come and feel us up.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
She says. He would often sneak into the girl's bedroom
at night. She remembers her brother John trying to protect
the girls, pushing furniture against the door so person X
couldn't enter.
Speaker 4 (12:20):
It was mainly every night he used to try and
get hold of myself and my younger sisters.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
I'd feel the.
Speaker 4 (12:26):
Hand going down and you're just lying there still, and
you know, and you don't want to scream or anything.
Where the bathroom was, the kitchen was right there, and
he used to stand to watch us take a shower,
just sit there look at us. We were just frightened,
you know, we were very frightened of him.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
He used to take.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
Us for a walk through the cane field at the back. Yeah.
He always took us where we couldn't find our way
back daytime, late in the afternoon, about three or four
times a week.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Jane described Person X as a sex maniac. She says
she and her sister, who will call Sue, were fit
and agile and would run away from him, off into
the cane fields and eventually find their way home to mum.
But the youngest girl, who will call Donna, was a
chubby five year old who couldn't get away.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
We just took off and left her. We just bolted.
She used to come back crying.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Donna died before her twenty first birthday from heart problems.
Jane and her sister tell me Donna left behind a
journal detailing her memories of abuse at the hands of
Person X. Jane thinks she may still have the diary
and is currently trying to find it.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
She remembered and she wrote it in the diary, but
I put it away so no one would see it.
There was a bit in the diary. Mom was upset
when she read it. She read it just after we
lost her. She just broke down. She didn't know he
was touched. She goes because he used to do it
when Mum wasn't home, because you know, Mum had a
gambling problem, bingo and cards, but she always made sure
(14:08):
we had food on the table. I think he hit
mum around two, if I can remember. He had a
very bad anger. Very anything set him off, anything when
it didn't go his way, he went off.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Like her brother John. Jane gets emotional when talking about
her mum. She too clearly recalls the night person X
attacked the babysitter.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
Mom had this girl babysitter and he raped her in
the room. He came home drunk. He was always drinking.
She was white, very young, and sandy blonde hair. She
was screaming out for help. Yeah, we were liking a
sleepout right next to the bedroom. We could hear everything
(14:55):
and she was screaming for help, but we couldn't help.
We were too.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Young at times. Jane breaks down during our interview, but
says she has blocked out a lot of the abuse
and gotten on with her life. She talks about the
cruelty meeted out to her brothers that the boys would
be left black and blue after person X beat them.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
He used to flog them, I mean flog them.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
And the incident that led to her mother bringing in
the police, taking her children and never going back.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
Two houses up I think it was or next door.
He was drinking at somebody's place. Mum went somewhere, I
don't know where she went, and he was showing off
in front of his mates, like making us look like
we were black trash. Those boys they did something and
he pulled them aside and had us girls sitting on
the floor in the kitchen, and he made us watch
(15:52):
him flog the boys and said to them they weren't
allowed to move off the spot where he was flogging them.
If they moved, he'd go more. I don't know if
he used a stick, not sure, wasn't his hand, Maybe
a stick, a switch or a strap. Yeah, flogged them,
Jane said.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
None of the people watching intervened to help the boys,
but somehow their mother found out.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
Mom came home and she walked in with the police
and said I'm going and I'm taking my children. That's
how we got out. So mum just left him. Then
we just went back to the house and grabbed a
few bits of clothes. He had alcohol in him. He
didn't say nothing, there was something there. She was very
frightened of for her to get the police. Like I said,
(16:40):
I don't know how she knew the boys were getting
or hiding unless one of the neighbors said something. We
didn't because we were scared and crying. That's how she
got away from him. I still remember that.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
The children were relieved when their mother finally left Person X,
but were angry when he came to say goodbye as
they bought it a train.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Yes, the thing I couldn't believe was when we come
through on the train to go to Brisbane. He was
on the train station at Serena and he jumped up
wanting a hug and a kiss. We couldn't believe it.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Their mother died just six months ago, but even if
she was alive, some of her children say they don't
know what she would say about Person X. The family's
violent time with him was never discussed. After they fled Serena.
They believe their mother would even have provided an alibi
if he had told her to, most likely out of fear.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
She probably would have. I think she was living in denial.
We never spoke about it. Once we left, that was it.
It was in the back of our mind, got on
with life. Never brought it up again until now.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
John can't remember if police came to speak with Person
X or their mum about the Kurstenfeldt case. Jane has
no memory of Margaret at all, but she certainly recalls
the moment her brother in law thumped Person X and
sent him hurtling down the stairs.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
And kicked and booted him all the way out of
the front gate. I was standing at the top.
Speaker 5 (18:14):
Of the stairs.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
We've uncovered some other interesting information. It turns out that
the brother in law who belted Person X is related
to Rosy, the woman whose body was found in the
Fitzroy River in nineteen seventy five. Also, Person X had
a biological son named after him, but apparently they never met. Sadly,
(18:45):
the son took his own life when he was just
thirty four. It is believed Person X also has a daughter.
They were the children of a different woman. Possibly the
woman who was with him when police caught up with
him on the train from Rocampton in nineteen seventy five
and arrested him for Rosy's murder. So that's what we've
(19:09):
been finding out about Person X, and it's thanks to
another trip to Serena, the people we met and those
we've been in contact with since. Hello, Hey, William, it's
Paula Donovan. How are you going?
Speaker 6 (19:25):
Not too bad?
Speaker 2 (19:26):
William Large is the person who remembered the children who
lived in the house with Person X. He was a
kid himself and used to play with them.
Speaker 6 (19:35):
I was eleven, just before twelve. I would turned twelve
in March, and everything was nice and as I would say,
it was cool and funky and kids had a good time.
It was fairly a safe area really. As kids, we
didn't get home until nighttime. We were pretty well safe
around the area, so it was good fun times.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Would you often play at each other's houses?
Speaker 6 (19:54):
Oh yeah, yeah, we often be playing down other kids places.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
He resided on Serena Beach Road and remembers where everyone lived.
Speaker 6 (20:02):
There was another house at the end of the road,
then Heathers, and then Margaret's, then Arnie Jones's, and then
there was a made of mine and I went to school.
He lived in the next house after that. Then there
was the Barquey's. The next two houses. I can't really
say much about their older people, and we didn't have
much to do with them. Then there was a set
(20:23):
of white flats on Beach Road. They're still there, I think.
Then there was a high blockhouse, and then there was
our house, and then there was a spare allotment, and
then there was a servis's house, and then there was
another house on the corner that was our side of
the road. So I do remember the houses and most
of the people that lived there at the stage.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
William knew one of the children who lived with Person.
Speaker 6 (20:47):
X as far as I can remember, then his father
figure didn't see eye to eye very often.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
How are you aware that they didn't see eye.
Speaker 6 (20:55):
To eye, just as kids you hear that from the kid,
did tell Dad did this again? Or he did this
again or whatever it was. I knew they didn't see
the eye to eye. I've got in trouble again. I mean,
my father and I never saw right eye a lot either.
But it was the same situation type thing back in
those days. You got smacked. It was just the time.
(21:15):
But he never mentioned to me that my dad has
been violent, or Dad's bashed me up last night or
anything like that. He never said anything like that to me.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Willim also has a clear recollection of Margaret.
Speaker 6 (21:27):
I do remember her because one thing that does stick
in my mind with about her was because she only
just lived down the road from us, but she was
sitting on her front steps there one day, and she
was the one actually told me that Elvis Presley had
died when I'm on the way home from school. So
that was August seventy seven, So I can still remember
that sitting there telling me that our families were like friends.
(21:51):
So we've actually been down to her place a couple
of times. It was good. The reason why we remember
that is because I grow up, I was known as David.
I've got a brother, Colin, and the sister Leslie. My
younger brother wasn't born at that stage. But Margaret's father's
name was David, her son's name was Colin, and her
(22:12):
daughter's name was Leslie, So her daughter was very unusual
that we'd all have the same names in the two
different families.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
What do you actually remember of Margaret, of who she
was not.
Speaker 6 (22:24):
That much, but we did go down there occasionally. I mean,
as eleven year old, you're playing with kids, so you're
not worried about what the adults are doing at that stage,
and especially back in the seventies where it was kids
that would be seen and not her type thing. But
I do remember as a lovely lady. She was a nice,
friendly lady. She loved the kids could tell that.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Did she appear to be well received in the community as.
Speaker 6 (22:47):
Far as I could tell, as I said as an
eleven year old, yes, she was perceived to be well received.
She made friends fairly quickly, like her next door neighbor
Hair there she is the babysit for her as well,
so being in town only a short while, she'd made
friends like, as I said, my mum and dad acquaintances.
(23:08):
I'm not sure if they're good friends, but there are acquaintances,
and we've gone down there a couple of times, and
she seemed to be well liked.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
William's memory is vivid on many accounts, including the night
that Margaret died.
Speaker 6 (23:21):
Margaret's next door neighbor, Heather, she was actually up at
our place. Her and her partner at the time. We
were up at our place playing Canasta. At the end
of the night, when the games had finished and they
about the head home. We walked them outside and we
could see the police lights and the hears and everything
down the road, and we'd actually thought it was one
of had there's other neighbors. He was known as a
(23:44):
bit of an alcoholic, and we just thought he'd passed away.
It wasn't until the next day that we found out
it was Margaret, but head that would have found out
that night when she got home.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
So did you go down there yourself at all to
have a look?
Speaker 6 (23:56):
No? No, not that night.
Speaker 7 (23:57):
No.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
And were you anyone from your family interviewed by police
following Margaret's death.
Speaker 6 (24:04):
I think both my mother and father were. I can't
remember when or what times it was, but I'm pretty
sure mum and dad were both interviewed.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
And do you remember much of how her death impacted
what people were talking about?
Speaker 8 (24:22):
I know, you're young, Yeah, I still remember.
Speaker 6 (24:25):
That's probably why I do remember it so vivid, is
it was just that everybody was so shocked when it
came out as a suicide, because nobody could believe it.
I mean, that was the big talk that it should
have been still classed as murder, and no one could
believe that it was a suicide. So I think that's
(24:46):
why I've remembered it so well, because it was the
first person that I know at a violent death, and yeah,
I think that's why it's impacted. And then I remembered
so it's so much of who was there at the
time and everything, but no one could believe that it
was a suicide. It was just so dumbfounded that they
called it a suicide in town. I can still remember.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
That was the disbelief about it being a suicide more
to do with who Margaret was or to do with
the nature of her injuries.
Speaker 6 (25:15):
I think it was a little bit to do it both,
but it was I think a lot more to do
with the nature of the injuries because the word had
got around it that there was three implements and stuff
like that. It was just so hard to believe that
someone could cut their own throat with three different implements
and they call it a suicide. That was, I think
(25:36):
was the biggest disbelief of the lot.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
William was interviewed by police when the matter was investigated
again in two thousand and three, so was his mum,
and Large, or Georgie as she's known these days, she
agreed to talk to us. When we headed up to Serena,
Chal wasn't there this time. I took with me Peter Howard,
(25:58):
who was a well known PLO in the area forty
years ago. Many members of the Serena community remembered him
or his name, and he was warmly welcomed. Good Peter
bridged the gap between the members of the Serena community
and us the outsiders. Tell me how you met Margaret
(26:19):
Curstonfelt walked and knocked on her door.
Speaker 8 (26:22):
She came out and I said, I'm the girl from
up the road. I'm in Large. She said, I'm Margaret Cursed.
I said, welcome to the neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
So two country girls, Yeah, meeting.
Speaker 8 (26:34):
That's it. I just said to her, do you want
to come? But she said, oh, I'm going up town
to see if I can get a job at the diner.
And I said, oh, yeah. They give her a trial run.
And she asked me, would I'll be able to look
after the kids for her? And I said, yeah, mate,
no problem. She said, when Malcolm's not home, you know,
And I said, that's no problem. I got a couple
of kids on my own. I'm when I take a
(26:57):
couple like fool. Yeah, I got photos of them too, somewhere,
and I don't know where. Of the kids, Yeah, sitting
up home.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
So Anne or Georgie would look after baby Leslie when
Margaret did her shift at the pie cart, and she
did so on the evening Margaret died. She'd get her
own children to push Leslie up to her house in
the pram.
Speaker 8 (27:22):
Kids go down and pick the kids up and bring
them up in the prem And oh, yeah, that night
when I was bringing Leslie.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Up, this is the night there, yeah, of Margaret's death.
Speaker 8 (27:33):
When I went the afternoon when I brought Leslie up,
I said to David, run back and get Margaret to
give you some milk from but you know, so I
raced back down and Margaret was just top heading out
to work. So I'd give it some milk and you
come home with it. He said to me, she's going
to work early to die. I said, she must have
(27:53):
an early start because the diner used to go to
midnight and open again at four. Used to me there
for the pub goers and the mill workers, she workers
and everything like that. It opened from four o'clock in
the morning to midnight, so you only got pour out
was just bend. So that's why you have shifts.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
So she would have come into contact with a lot
of people.
Speaker 8 (28:16):
People, Yeah, because he got all the little workers, all
the railway workers, construction workers at that time.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
And Or Georgie was also an acquaintance of Margaret's neighbor,
Heather Hanson. In her statement to police, Heather says she
and Anne spoke to Margaret outside her bedroom window and
on the steps of her home just hours before she
was found dead seven pm.
Speaker 4 (28:41):
She sat on the front steps and spoke for ten
minutes or so.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Well, tell me about the last time you saw Margaret alive.
Speaker 8 (28:47):
It was when I took Leslie back to her.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
She Yeah, Heather Hanson was with you or in the vicinity,
I believe. According to the police report, she was a
redheaded woman that lived on the other side of Margaret.
So she lived at number thirty one.
Speaker 8 (29:05):
Could have been too. I can't remember. There's a lot
of things I can't remember.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
So you've been babysitting daby Leslie. Yeah, yeah, and.
Speaker 8 (29:16):
When she comes home she if the kids, Well, the
kids were always out and they see see one of
the kids, and they say, we can tell mom to
bring so they slip back, or I'll come up and
get her so I know we'll bring her back.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
The David that Georgie is referring to is her son William,
who we just heard from earlier. His name is actually
William David Large, but his mum prefers to use David.
That last time you saw her, the police report reads
that you and Heather were there and probably around.
Speaker 8 (29:49):
Seven o'clock and at that time, yeah, do.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
You remember what Margaret said to you at all?
Speaker 8 (29:54):
She said, I'm going to have a sleeping tablet, a
glass of wine and hit the hay. So what about
Leslie wakes up for the night. She said, I'll have
her in bed with me.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Did she office it with Leslie in the bed with her?
Speaker 5 (30:07):
YEP.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
I found these statements of Georgie's quite interesting. If Margaret
was going to bed, then why change into a mini
dress the outfit she was wearing when her body was discovered.
If Margaret had taken a sleeping pill with a glass
of wine, how would this have affected her? Would she
(30:32):
have slept heavily? Would she have been hard to awaken?
Would her movements and reactions have been sluggish. Remember the
witness statements about the night of Margaret's death, describing her
as dopey and having the shakes.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
She picked quite dopey, and I took it that she
was taking the nerve tablets that the doctor had given her.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
I wonder this because if Margaret had been attacked, it
may explaining why there didn't seem to be any defensive wounds.
Remember what pathologists, doctor Nigel Buxton had to say.
Speaker 5 (31:08):
If it is proposed that a second person was responsible,
the lady must have been very cooperative or unconscious.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
What if she was too affected by a sleeping pil
and alcohol to react. The toxicology report found alcohol in
her blood and in her bile, but no drug or
poison in her liver or stomach. It's not knowing what
tests were carried out though, and whether substances picked up
(31:36):
today would have been detected forty years ago. Then there's
a comment that baby Leslie would sleep in the same
bed as Margaret. Neither Margaret's husband, Malcolm nor her sister
Debbie can recall Margaret's sleeping with her baby. However, if
this had become a regular occurrence, why then was Leslie
(31:57):
found in a cot in a separate room on the
night Margaret died.
Speaker 6 (32:01):
I was surprised to see a baby asleep in the
front just inside the door. I think it was quite
a lot.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Sure, had Margaret changed her routine at the last minute
or did someone else move the baby to the other room. Anyway,
back to Georgie and do you remember what she was
dressed in when you saw her?
Speaker 8 (32:23):
Just a summer mighty satin sumer mighty.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
No shortened T shirts.
Speaker 8 (32:29):
No, unless she got changed later, I don't know. Because
she was ready to hit the hay. She said, I've
had a tough day, large issues that I'll hit the hay.
I'll see you in the morning, make no problem. I said,
if you're that tired, do you want me to come
down and picked Leslie up and let you have a
day if you're not working. And she said, oh, that'd
(32:53):
be great. And David was the one that come and
told me that Margaret.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Was Georgie says she didn't even know that Margaret and
Malcolm's marriage had broken up. She thought he was away
looking for work one time.
Speaker 8 (33:09):
She said it he's gone back down where we come
from to look for work, down there we might be
moving back down there. So I said, that's a bit
of shame, because hey, no, she was pretty good. And
like I said, you know, if she was having trouble,
she come up home, have a cuppa, you sit down
down and talk. Don't know what about, but we'd talk
(33:30):
and she said, I'll picked the kids up now and
go home.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
I said, yeah, okay, So she developed a little bit
of a support network here. Do you remember meeting your
family at all?
Speaker 8 (33:41):
Oh? They did come up one time.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
I don't know for her twenty first birthday.
Speaker 8 (33:46):
Might have been, might have been, but yeah, and I
remember meeting mom and dad. I think that might have
been when I met them all because Margaret said, where
am I going to camp a mall? And I said,
I plenty floor's face.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Did she seem depressed or anything to you?
Speaker 8 (34:06):
Not as far as I can tell. Let's so, yeah,
I used to take a sleep and tablet and have
a glass of wine or something and knock out. You know,
you go for it.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Then you did you leave after that?
Speaker 8 (34:22):
Yeah? Like I was outside talking to her through the
louvers of her been. Remember did you.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Talk to anyone after you saw.
Speaker 8 (34:31):
Margaret in the garage? Mean place. I kind of Jones,
you live next door talking to him for that for
a while.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
When you're talking to Arnie Jones. Did you see anyone
go to Margaret's face?
Speaker 8 (34:44):
Like in the White Bend?
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Do you know what sort of panel van?
Speaker 8 (34:47):
It was like a sitting.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Like the old Sandman the seventies. Yeah, it was white, yeah,
hot it up at all or.
Speaker 8 (34:58):
White Bend?
Speaker 2 (35:00):
So just one male in the car. And did he
get out of the car?
Speaker 8 (35:04):
Yeah, he got out, knocked on the door. She must
have said, come in.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
So did you talk to the guy or did you
ask him who he was? I can't remember what he
looks like? How is he dressed?
Speaker 8 (35:15):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
You can't.
Speaker 8 (35:18):
I just can't remember. All I know there was a
white car.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
She said she had no idea who the man was,
but knew who he wasn't kicking off names such as
Gary Hopkins or the person we've previously referred to as
b This man or panel van was not mentioned in
the final police report and did not feature in the
(35:48):
official timeline of Margaret's movements on the day of her death.
The only reference we have to anyone with a panel
van is Lindsey. He was one of a group of
people at Margaret's home the night before she died, and
according to Marsha Breed's statement, there had been tentative arrangements
(36:09):
that Lindsay would pick her up on the Friday night
to visit friends in Mackay, but Margaret had declined the offer.
She said to Lindsay, don't worry about coming out.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
He said, Okay, see you on Sunday.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
When did you learn Margaret had died that night? Because
of the police presence, and.
Speaker 8 (36:34):
My eldest held the son chantristic. What I can remember
is they told David not to hang around there because
Margaret's been found dead and she was on the front lawn.
So he come run on home and he told Nate.
So I sort of went halfway down.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
At what point did you learn that the investigation had
turned into one of suicide? Well, that basically that Margaret
had taken.
Speaker 8 (37:04):
Her own life, great robot, And he said to me,
largely she killed this off. I said, nah, just like that, Lissa,
will you mean nah? I said, she got two kids, mate,
she loved those kids. Why would she do that? I said,
you better look for something else.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Georgie says she spoke with police at the time of
Margaret's death and then when it was reopened as a
cold case in the early two thousands. There is no
statement from her attached to the police report we obtained
for this podcast, and given we are testing her memory
of an event more than forty years ago, her account
of the night slightly differs to the information in Heather
(37:46):
Hanson's police statement. Georgie couldn't remember being with Heather when
she visited Margaret on the night she died. Georgie also
said Margaret was dressed in a ninety at the time.
Heather told police Margaret was dressed in black shorts and
a green and purple blowers when she and Anne saw
(38:06):
her at her house around seven pm. When Margaret's body
was found, she was dressed in a polka dot cotton
mini dress and bra. Those items, along with the nightie,
were among the exhibits collected from the crime scene and tested.
Heather also stated her and Anne spoke to Margaret through
her bedroom window and then Margaret came to the front
(38:28):
door and sat on her steps to talk to them,
whereas Georgie said she only spoke to Margaret through her
bedroom window. We also caught up with another witness mentioned
in police Detective Milton Hassenkhan's report. She lived in the
vicinity of Margaret and knew her. The witness does not
(38:48):
want to be identified, so we'll call her Pearl and
Serena Beach Road at the time in the seventies was
somewhere I imagine at night, which would have been very dark.
There was really no street lighting here, was there.
Speaker 5 (39:01):
She was not much lighting. It might have been a
bit better, but not much good at all, and it's
very dark. But Beach Road was very young because we
used to go to the beach at night time because
that's the only place she could sort of have some fun.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
I visited Margaret's home on Serena Beach Rode at night
to see how dark it was, even with a limited
amount of street lighting there is today. It was eerie.
How was the town impacted on when Margaret died? What
was the feeling and talk amongst the local community.
Speaker 5 (39:42):
There was a lot of concern whether she did do
herself in or whether it was somebody else hurting, and
whether it's going to just stop at her place or
whether it was going to travel on to other people.
Because it was really scary. It was a bit of
an effort to go to work every day.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
You were worried for your own personal safety.
Speaker 5 (40:02):
Yeah, yeah, people around too, because you know, her not
being a locals, so we didn't know it's just because
of her, or whether there was some lunatic gone off
the rails that were say up to hurt other people,
because yeah, Serena never had anything like that before.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
So will perhaps be targeting a vulnerable young woman who
was living on her own.
Speaker 5 (40:28):
Well that's right too, because yeah, she did it by
herself and with little kids. And there was a lot
of young people, young ladies with kids at that time
where the husbands or not living with anybody around. So yeah,
everyone was sort of on tend to look hooks. It
was very scary because even the police had sort of
(40:50):
go around if you're uptown to make sure you're home
at a decent time, because they were a bit worried
about our safety too. And it was really scary because
we do not first murderer madmen around and we didn't
know who it was, where it was somebody that you
could talk to every day, or it was a stranger.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
How did the community learn that Margaret's death, which was
first treated as a murder was then being treated as
a suicide. How did the community receive that news.
Speaker 5 (41:20):
They thought it was suicide because they didn't think Serena
would have somebody like that that would murder another human being.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
What do you think happened to Margaret?
Speaker 5 (41:30):
What I remember Margaret? I don't think she would have
took her own life because she loved the kids and
she just liked life. She loved life. Now, I don't
believe she would have done it to herself. I think
somebody had heard her and yeah, and they got away
with it by the looks. And that's the sad thing.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
The other thing that this woman and William Large and
his mother, George, you remember distinctly about the time is
the presence of a prowler in the street.
Speaker 6 (42:10):
Oh God, yes, oh God, yes, do you remember that prowler?
He scared the Jesus out of me a few times,
running his fingers up against the wall and knocking on
the wall, and our tall It was not a thunderbox
that was outside. They had to walk down the backstairs
through the garage, and it was outside the house. And
there'd been a couple of times where you go to
(42:31):
the toilet at nighttime before you go to bed and
there'd be a knock on the door and there'd be
nobody there.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
How long did that go on for weeks?
Speaker 6 (42:39):
Oh? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The police tried to catch him
and he was really quick. I think he opened the
window one time and my brother's room and my brothers
said go away or something like that. He did strike fear,
and not fear, but just scared because he'd just do
it constantly, and like we'd have four or five nights
in a row and he would.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Do it while you're father was home or not home.
It wouldn't matter, it wouldn't matter. And did he strike
at a particular time of night?
Speaker 6 (43:06):
Well, as kids, we used to go to bed back then,
it was probably of eight thirty, so it was after
that time. Yeah, it'd be laying in bed. Next thing
you hear that the fingernails go at the wall.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
When Margaret died, did that change how people fell? Did they?
Some of the local residents have told me that they
started locking their doors, they started shutting windows.
Speaker 6 (43:27):
Yeah, yeah, it did change, even our place. I mean
they proudly hit our place a fair bit, but like
doors were never locked back in those days, but the
doors were starting to be locked, and.
Speaker 8 (43:44):
I've got the coppers on. I said, come on instead
of sit not there drinking fucking beer, or get your
asses down here. So we've got a prouder and they
know when Billy goes to work and they start.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
So that was your husband then knew and when he
would go to work, and then what would happen.
Speaker 8 (44:04):
Oh, they'd come and try and try and climb through windows.
Margaret was lucky she had lovers. I had windows and
not other people's houses. He'd bang on the wall. But
we got him because, I said, Craig Robertson, I said,
how am I going to catch him? When the armed
man goes to work? And he looked at me and said, well,
where a best does he go? So he goes around
(44:26):
near the toilet because that's where the kids are down
that way. But anyway, I said, right, yeah, So as
soon as I heard him coming in banging on the walls,
I'd go outside and hold the shovel. Home the shovel
and I'm standing there ready to swing.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
They and the.
Speaker 8 (44:48):
Large it's me. Why didn't you sing out front?
Speaker 5 (44:55):
He said?
Speaker 8 (44:55):
I didn't want to. He said, you really going to swing?
Speaker 9 (44:59):
That?
Speaker 8 (44:59):
Won today? It did be a dead bastard. So anyway,
he said, well that's the idea. He said, we haven't
seen any but we're knocking off now. And I said, here,
as soon as you go, he'll be here because he's
spotted you.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
So you think he was someone who was watching what
everyone's habits were.
Speaker 8 (45:20):
So Craig went home, brought his own car back and
he sat down the bottom of the backyard there in
the car well. People and Tom didn't go that way.
So well, I had a jugger. I was boiling it
near the bed, and I said, if that bastard comes
through window to night, because I can't sleep in it clothes,
(45:43):
it's got to be open. So put the arm through
and through jugg of water overy screaming and carrying on
to the copper. Got there, he was gone like the wind.
Robbo went up to the hospit because that's the first
place is hit had because he had got burnt down
(46:03):
the face and down the arm. So yeah, it happened
to the hospital.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
William also remembered the incident involving the prowler and boiling water.
Speaker 6 (46:16):
Yes, yes, so I was going to say that, but
I didn't know if I should or not. But he
brought it up. It waited in there with a part
of boiling water, and when it came down, she threw
the bailing water over him.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
But when I asked former police officer Craig Robertson, he
couldn't recall the incident. It is also unclear as to
whether this person was arrested or charged, but he did
leave Serena. So do you remember how long in relation
to the reports of the prowlers around Serena Beach Road
(46:51):
were happening in relation to Margaret's death.
Speaker 5 (46:54):
Oh, I think it was only a couple of weeks
before Margaret's death, but it was just a weekends, but
it happened. It was very strange because we were all
a bit worried.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
The prowler, you remember, was taking clothes from people's lines,
mostly female clothes.
Speaker 5 (47:10):
More females than males. And that person was not being
on windows.
Speaker 2 (47:15):
You know, at the timing would have been in relation
to Margaret's.
Speaker 5 (47:17):
Death, probably a few weeks beforehand.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
Did Margaret ever talk to you about her concerns about
the prowler.
Speaker 5 (47:24):
I think she was worried because she had the little
kids there, but I don't think she ever really said
much about it. But I know we did have really
a lot of trouble with the prowler because everyone was
really scared.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
Did Margaret ever talked to you about how scared she was?
Speaker 8 (47:40):
No, she didn't say anything about being scared.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
Did she say anything about sleeping with a knife under
a mattress?
Speaker 8 (47:46):
Or she told me that.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
There was something else that all three knew about too,
something that former police officer Craig robertson and briefly touched
on when I interviewed him.
Speaker 7 (48:04):
It's here say, but I do recall that a diary
or appointment slash book was located in the house, and
that there were a number of male names in that book.
(48:26):
But at no time did I see that book or
was I given any names from that book.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
A book with men's names in it. We know that
Margaret had kept a diary in the past. We've read
excerpts from the one she wrote in nineteen seventy five.
Spent the day drinking with Colin at first, and then
with Wayne and Ivan. But was this something different? Was
it something more? Georgia remembers a steady stream of men
(49:00):
coming and going from Margaret's home.
Speaker 8 (49:04):
I said to her one time, what are you running
a book?
Speaker 2 (49:09):
Because there were so many men? How did she take that?
Speaker 6 (49:14):
Like?
Speaker 8 (49:15):
They just laughed? She said, what do you mean running
the book? She said, I'm not taking on bets. And
I said, I didn't mean that kind of book.
Speaker 2 (49:24):
Love you meant? Was she working as a prostitutor or
a sex worker? And what she say?
Speaker 8 (49:31):
She said, well, I've got to get some extra monday somehow.
I said, yeah. My mum always told me was sitting
on the gold mine and don't know how to use it.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
So do you think she was working quietly as a prostitute?
Speaker 8 (49:44):
Good honor? What she could do?
Speaker 2 (49:46):
Why not working at the diner wasn't enough for her?
Was she still working at the dinat?
Speaker 8 (49:50):
No?
Speaker 2 (49:51):
No, she was trying to make ends meet, you think, yep?
And what do you know of these rumors? Is that
she had kept some sort of little black book on
the men she was seeing.
Speaker 8 (50:04):
I don't know whether she did or she didn't. If
she was on the game, she'd have to so that
she'd know who has to pay and who's paid, unless
she's got a better mind than mine.
Speaker 2 (50:16):
I also spoke to Pearl about the black book.
Speaker 5 (50:19):
I don't know if they asked or I heard about
Margaret keating up black book, but I think they were
mainly males names in it. I don't know who they
were or anything. Yeah, the detectives might ask me that
when they did come around to my house.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
Was the black book elsa the men that she may
have been seen.
Speaker 5 (50:38):
I think she liked these men that she had names
in this black book, but I wouldn't have a clue
who they were or anything. It was just talk the
town sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (50:52):
So if that little black book does indeed exist, what
could it mean for the case. At the very least,
it holds a list of names of people who were
known to Margaret and knew where she lived. If she
was murdered, could it be motive for someone who discovered
she was recording names. Perhaps she was expecting someone on
(51:15):
the night she died and things went bad. Remember witness
k Mattin saw Margaret sitting on her front steps around
ten thirty pm on the night of her death. Perhaps
someone turned up when she wasn't expecting them and things
turned bad. Perhaps there were jealousies, unfulfilled expectations, disputes over money,
(51:39):
or angry outbursts. Here's Pearl again.
Speaker 5 (51:44):
I think she might have had a couple of close
male friends that might have been thinking that they mightn't
have been getting the services that they wanted from them.
But I don't know for them for sure. That's just
my theory.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
But how does Margaret's family feel about this suggestion of
a little black book and the possibility that perhaps Margaret
was dabbling in prostitution for some extra cash. Would she
have done so before or after Malcolm had separated In
the two weeks prior to her death, Remember, she was.
Speaker 1 (52:22):
In a receipt of sixty five dollars per week benefits,
forty five dollars of which was paid for rent, and
only twenty dollars on which to keep her children and herself.
Speaker 5 (52:31):
For the week.
Speaker 2 (52:33):
Here's Margaret's sister deb.
Speaker 9 (52:37):
Well, when we got together, and the purpose of us
getting together was to talk about this as well as
to check on how we were traveling with the podcast
and our reactions. There wasn't any hesitation in going forward
with the concept of the black Book or the potential
that she might have been having sex for trading it
for goods, or whatever she might have been doing with it.
(53:00):
It wasn't something that shocked any of us. Her daughter said,
this is not a time to hold back, and it's
not about whether she was sexually active or not. This
is about finding the truth, and that was the general
tone of what was said. Mum believed that we shouldn't
hold anything back. If we needed to put it out there,
we needed to put it out there, so there was
(53:20):
no discontent or disagreement. It was just let's do what
we have to do.
Speaker 2 (53:24):
Do you think it is something that Margaret would do?
Would she be someone who would keep a black book?
Speaker 9 (53:29):
Yes? I think it is very much a reasonable thought
that she would, even if it was just casually, because
in nineteen seventy five her diary was full of names
of people that she had slept with. I found that
book and read it secretly, which she wasn't very happy
about when she did find out. But it wasn't something
(53:50):
that was new to her to write the names down.
Speaker 2 (53:53):
Could that mean that if there was a black book,
there may not necessarily be when she was earning money
to sleep with, but it would be something that she
may just be chronicling or journaling as she had before
in nineteen seventy five.
Speaker 9 (54:06):
Well, I think that certainly could be the case, because
it was definitely the case back then where she wrote
good fun at the events with boys and things as well.
You know that she wasn't actually sleeping with I mean,
I've had people who knew her back then talk about
where she used to sneak out of the pictures, the everything.
(54:26):
But they weren't always having sex. They were just running
around town, you know. So it was about having fun.
It was also about just the way she must have
liked to keep her memories, you know. But yes, it's
not off the table that she could have been asking
for some favors for it as well. I didn't have
examples of that as a younger woman, but certainly I'm
not surprised if she did. I know Mum had sent
(54:49):
some money to her because she was struggling a couple
of times, so she didn't have a lot of money.
Speaker 2 (54:54):
The pregnancy and money seemed to be on Margaret's mind.
Her friend Marsha Braied told that on February seven, three
days before her death, Margaret dropped in to see her
in Mackay, and told her she was going to have
a pregnancy test and also see legal aid about child maintenance.
Speaker 9 (55:13):
And look, she is was a fighter. She she would
do what she needed to do for those kids, you know,
and she wouldn't see that as something that was completely wrong. So, yeah,
she was already doing some work at the pie cart
and picking up little bits of where she could do
something that obviously her world was going to change with
(55:34):
the impending pregnancy that she thought she had. Yeah, it's
a hard place to be sitting thinking how am I
going to raise my family? How am I going to
feed them? So even when Malcolm would have been there,
I mean, she was pretty much a single num because
he was working away all the time. So and that's
the way life was, but that she'd have been quite
(55:55):
used to thinking, well, okay, how do I get through
each day?
Speaker 2 (55:58):
So you weren't surprised in the episodes that you have
heard where people have raised that Margaret had a reputation
for being promiscuous.
Speaker 9 (56:07):
No, I was not surprised with that at all. It
just made sense to me because that's part of what
I remember of her when she was younger. And once again,
that's not putting her down. She was just happy and
a fun going girl. You know. It seemed to be
something that she made her feel good.
Speaker 2 (56:29):
No one in the family can I remember ever being
questioned about a diary or book before.
Speaker 9 (56:34):
I don't remember anything being mentioned or discussed about the book. Yeah,
I don't because and some of that I was actually
with her or either on the phone, and I don't
remember some of those about being raised.
Speaker 2 (56:49):
One thing that is for sure, this little black book
has not come to light just yet. Don't forget. The
(57:12):
Cold Case Investigation Team, a unit within Queensland Police Homicide Squad,
want people to come forward with any information they have
and to contact crime stoppers. We too would like to
hear from anyone who remembers Margaret and anything about her
death or who may be responsible.
Speaker 5 (57:31):
I had somebody comes forward and I'm up to it
or know who has done it and double them in,
because should the family be left not knowing the real
reason why they hurt her. She's got the family that
still doesn't know what happened and why they did it.
Because Margaret was a lovely person and she wouldn't hurt anybody.
Speaker 6 (57:56):
There has to be somebody there that knows. That's the
big thing that this has to be somebody that knows
what's happened. Because it was only a small community and
everybody knew everybody, so whether it was just a passing
word or something that somebody heard and just come forward
with it because it may lead to something. It may not,
(58:20):
but it may lead to something, and we'll get a
finish to this.
Speaker 2 (58:31):
Until then, Pendulum will be on hiatus. As soon as
we have news or some interesting information, we'll let you know.
(58:57):
If you have information about the Margaret Kurston Felt case,
please let us know. Email us at Pendulum podcast at
gmail dot com or go to seven news dot com
dot au. Forward Slash Pendulum presenter and executive producer Paula Donovan,
(59:24):
Writer and producer Sally Eels. Sound design Mark Wright, Graphics
Jason Blandford, producer Annette Caltabiano. Transcripts Charlie Dally Watkins. Our
theme music is the Clock Is Ticking by Dark Org Music.
(59:46):
See our show notes for full music credits. With thanks
to seven News Brisbane
In nineteen seventy eight, a young mum dies violently in
a small Queensland town suicide or murder. What happened to
Margaret kirstenfeld Someone knows? This is Pendulum episode twelve. Pendulum
(00:43):
wishes to advise that some listeners may find parts of
the following podcast episode, Confronting It contains details of sexual
violence and trauma. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander. Listeners are
also advised that reference is made to deceased Indigenous people. However,
names have been withheld or disguised.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I'm Paula Donoman. This podcast series and the TV stories
that have accompanied it on seven News has sparked a
new conversation about Margaret Kirstenfeldt's death, especially in two rural
Queensland communities, in gen Dowie, where Margaret grew up, and
(01:30):
more particularly in Serena where she died. Some of the
discussion we've heard through the grapevine or as a result
of social media postings. Other information has come directly via email. Previously,
(01:52):
when we've visited Serena, it's been hard to track down
anyone who remembers the case or wants to, and those
who did clammed up pretty quickly, but things have been
changing and we are so grateful. Thank you to everybody
who has come forward with snippets of information or the
(02:15):
names of long forgotten friends and neighbors. As a result
of community help, we have managed to track down some
of the children who lived with Person X. We can't
reveal their names in case it identifies Person X, and
(02:37):
also because these people are survivors of child abuse. What
we've uncovered are childhood memories that are traumatic and horrific. However,
we would like to make it clear that these allegations
raised with the Pendulum Podcast have not been investigated by police,
(03:02):
nor had any complaints been made to authorities. At the
time we wrote this episode. Five children, two boys, and
three girls lived with Person X. They were aged between
five and eleven. One of the boys has since died
in sad circumstances, one of the girls has two Another
(03:26):
of the girls is now battling a drug addiction. They
were the three youngest. I have spoken to the oldest
boy and girl who lived in that home. Will be
referring to them as John and Jane, though that's not
their real names. John says he was eleven when he
(03:46):
lived with Person X. Jane was a year younger. Person
X was not their father. They were the sons and
daughters of a woman who was his partner for at
least a year or so. She was older than Person
X and had a large family In the late nineteen seventies,
(04:08):
Some of the older siblings lived with the elder sister
and her husband in another town. We're not sure how
long she was with him, but she did leave him
in Serena. Her daughter says this is because of what
he'd done to her family. Thanks to a leed from
a Serena resident, we were able to find family members
(04:31):
on social media. She was one of the older ones
who lived in central Queensland. We'll call her Jess. When
I contacted Jess, she thought it was a sign. You see.
A week earlier, her brother John had phoned out of
the blue and said he thought he should go to
police and tell them about the treatment he and his
(04:52):
siblings had suffered at the hands of person X. He'd
never heard of this podcast, but he'd seen story about
Margaret Kirstenfelt on seven News and images of Serena had
triggered memories. Now, this news story did not even mention
Person X. It spoke of Margaret and the police case
(05:13):
surrounding her death, but it was enough for John to
contact his sister and discuss whether he should come forward
to tell police about his mother's former partner, how close
he lived to Margaret, and how brutal he was. John
is a shy man and doesn't want to be identified,
(05:35):
but said we could use the information he told me
for this podcast. Some of this information has been paraphrased.
Some of it is a reading of the actual comments
he made during our phone conversation.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
He was my mother's partner at the time. I'm not
sure how they met. The only thing I knew was
that my brother in law didn't like him. There were
room as he murdered an Aboriginal woman in Rockhampton. I
was living at my sister's place and he came around
one night and my brother in law whacked him on
the stairs and threw him out of the yard. Then
my mother left and took us with them moved to
(06:09):
Serena to live with them.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
John remembers that Person X was a fettler, worked on
the railways, and life in Serena was good when he
wasn't around.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
It was a good place to grow up. He had
good friends. It was a country town. Go play in
the bush and run through the cane fields. Yeah, outside
of the home it was good, and sometimes it was
good at home when he'd go away for work, sometimes
for a couple of weeks.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
He said Person X was a violent predator, beating the
boys and praying on the girls.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
He was a bad man. He was a violent man.
I turned the TV on one day and he jumps
up and knocks me to the ground and starts booting
me in the guts, you know, booting me around the body.
Those sort of things would set him off. He was
sort of controlling. Had to be his way. One other
thing is he used to lock us in the dog
shed for several hours, me and my brother sometimes at night.
(07:04):
But outside of the house he was good, even when
we had visitors. He was the perfect gentleman, perfect man.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
If their mother went out, John remembers he and his
brother would barricade their sisters in a bedroom so Person
X couldn't get to them.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
He wasn't very nice. He could be violent sometimes, especially
when mother wasn't around. He was trying to do things
to my sisters that we didn't like. We tried to
protect them. You know, one night he was attacking my sister.
I walked in and turned the light on and told
my sister to get up and go back into the room.
And I thought he was going to attack me again,
but he didn't. I don't know why. Must have felt guilty.
(07:43):
He was a tall man, pretty fit, hard working, tough man.
It was better when our older brothers come to visit
and family. He sort of kept his distance.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
But despite what they endured, John and his siblings never
complained to their mum.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Sometimes heard her crying in her room. We never said nothing,
but she may have suspected him. I'm not sure. I
don't want to think bad of my mum.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
As he spoke of his memories, this man, now in
his fifties, broke down several times. It's clear that John
loved his mother and feels tortured by opening up, almost
as if he's betraying her. He is protective of her.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
No, we never really brought it up. Think she sort
of had suspicions. One day, he took my younger sister
for a walk through the cane fields walking our dogs,
and I remember when they came back, my mom took
my sister into her room and I walked in on
Mum checking her, checking her private parts, and she turned
around and growled at me. And I remember not long
(08:50):
after that we moved to Mackay until she found a
fair for us to go to Brisbane.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
John says Person X was a drunk, but his mother
rarely consumed alcohol. However, she did gamble and often played cards.
He distinctly remembers a night when his mother was out
and a teenage babysitter was looking after them.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
I remember we had a babysitter, a young girl, a
young white girl would have been probably fifteen. He tried
to rape her. I knew she went to the same
school as us, she was in a higher grade. Mum
was out and he was supposed to go to the pub,
but he came home early.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Person X told the children to go to bed. Soon
after John heard the teenager scream.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
I heard her scream from my mother's bedroom. We were
out of bed and didn't go to sleep for hours,
lying awake, and I could hear her screaming, telling him
to stop stop touching her, get off her and stop.
She was petrified, demanding to be taken home, which he did,
but I think he walked her left by ourselves and
(10:01):
walked her home. Yeah, it was pretty dark walking down
the street in back roads, cane fields all around. I
don't know what happened after they left. Don't remember her name.
Mother never spoke of her again.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
John can't remember Margaret Curson felt, but has a vague
recollection of the time she died.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
I remember the adults talking about her. I am sure
we played at her house. I don't remember her coming
to our house. When I see that article on the news,
I said to my sister, I said, my feeling it
was him. She was so close, two doors down and
a single mother. I wouldn't put it past him, especially
as he's been charged before. Just the way he was.
(10:45):
He was sleezy, you know. He was a very sleazy person,
very conniving, slimy, and he could be frightening without saying anything.
He would give you a look. I sort of had
a feeling something stuck in my mind. We also had
a prowler at the time running around Serena, and not
long after that murder happened, the prowling stopped. I couldn't
(11:07):
say it was him, because sometimes it happened when he
was home. He could have gone out when we were asleep.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
A few days after speaking with John on the phone,
his sister the one we're crawling, Jane, agreed to chat
with me. I met her at her home in Brisbane.
She also did not want her voice recorded, but said
we could use her comments. This is a reading of
some of them. Her memories of her childhood in Serena
(11:36):
and person X.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
What happened to us years ago? I put it at
the back of my head. I think it damaged the
youngest sister. She's on drugs, ice and on the streets.
There's nothing nice to say about him. He used to
do things he shouldn't touch us where he shouldn't touch us. Yeah,
it was mainly when my was asleep or mum was out. Yeah,
(12:02):
he used to come and feel us up.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
She says. He would often sneak into the girl's bedroom
at night. She remembers her brother John trying to protect
the girls, pushing furniture against the door so person X
couldn't enter.
Speaker 4 (12:20):
It was mainly every night he used to try and
get hold of myself and my younger sisters.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
I'd feel the.
Speaker 4 (12:26):
Hand going down and you're just lying there still, and
you know, and you don't want to scream or anything.
Where the bathroom was, the kitchen was right there, and
he used to stand to watch us take a shower,
just sit there look at us. We were just frightened,
you know, we were very frightened of him.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
He used to take.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
Us for a walk through the cane field at the back. Yeah.
He always took us where we couldn't find our way
back daytime, late in the afternoon, about three or four
times a week.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Jane described Person X as a sex maniac. She says
she and her sister, who will call Sue, were fit
and agile and would run away from him, off into
the cane fields and eventually find their way home to mum.
But the youngest girl, who will call Donna, was a
chubby five year old who couldn't get away.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
We just took off and left her. We just bolted.
She used to come back crying.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Donna died before her twenty first birthday from heart problems.
Jane and her sister tell me Donna left behind a
journal detailing her memories of abuse at the hands of
Person X. Jane thinks she may still have the diary
and is currently trying to find it.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
She remembered and she wrote it in the diary, but
I put it away so no one would see it.
There was a bit in the diary. Mom was upset
when she read it. She read it just after we
lost her. She just broke down. She didn't know he
was touched. She goes because he used to do it
when Mum wasn't home, because you know, Mum had a
gambling problem, bingo and cards, but she always made sure
(14:08):
we had food on the table. I think he hit
mum around two, if I can remember. He had a
very bad anger. Very anything set him off, anything when
it didn't go his way, he went off.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Like her brother John. Jane gets emotional when talking about
her mum. She too clearly recalls the night person X
attacked the babysitter.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
Mom had this girl babysitter and he raped her in
the room. He came home drunk. He was always drinking.
She was white, very young, and sandy blonde hair. She
was screaming out for help. Yeah, we were liking a
sleepout right next to the bedroom. We could hear everything
(14:55):
and she was screaming for help, but we couldn't help.
We were too.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Young at times. Jane breaks down during our interview, but
says she has blocked out a lot of the abuse
and gotten on with her life. She talks about the
cruelty meeted out to her brothers that the boys would
be left black and blue after person X beat them.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
He used to flog them, I mean flog them.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
And the incident that led to her mother bringing in
the police, taking her children and never going back.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
Two houses up I think it was or next door.
He was drinking at somebody's place. Mum went somewhere, I
don't know where she went, and he was showing off
in front of his mates, like making us look like
we were black trash. Those boys they did something and
he pulled them aside and had us girls sitting on
the floor in the kitchen, and he made us watch
(15:52):
him flog the boys and said to them they weren't
allowed to move off the spot where he was flogging them.
If they moved, he'd go more. I don't know if
he used a stick, not sure, wasn't his hand, Maybe
a stick, a switch or a strap. Yeah, flogged them,
Jane said.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
None of the people watching intervened to help the boys,
but somehow their mother found out.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
Mom came home and she walked in with the police
and said I'm going and I'm taking my children. That's
how we got out. So mum just left him. Then
we just went back to the house and grabbed a
few bits of clothes. He had alcohol in him. He
didn't say nothing, there was something there. She was very
frightened of for her to get the police. Like I said,
(16:40):
I don't know how she knew the boys were getting
or hiding unless one of the neighbors said something. We
didn't because we were scared and crying. That's how she
got away from him. I still remember that.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
The children were relieved when their mother finally left Person X,
but were angry when he came to say goodbye as
they bought it a train.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Yes, the thing I couldn't believe was when we come
through on the train to go to Brisbane. He was
on the train station at Serena and he jumped up
wanting a hug and a kiss. We couldn't believe it.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Their mother died just six months ago, but even if
she was alive, some of her children say they don't
know what she would say about Person X. The family's
violent time with him was never discussed. After they fled Serena.
They believe their mother would even have provided an alibi
if he had told her to, most likely out of fear.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
She probably would have. I think she was living in denial.
We never spoke about it. Once we left, that was it.
It was in the back of our mind, got on
with life. Never brought it up again until now.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
John can't remember if police came to speak with Person
X or their mum about the Kurstenfeldt case. Jane has
no memory of Margaret at all, but she certainly recalls
the moment her brother in law thumped Person X and
sent him hurtling down the stairs.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
And kicked and booted him all the way out of
the front gate. I was standing at the top.
Speaker 5 (18:14):
Of the stairs.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
We've uncovered some other interesting information. It turns out that
the brother in law who belted Person X is related
to Rosy, the woman whose body was found in the
Fitzroy River in nineteen seventy five. Also, Person X had
a biological son named after him, but apparently they never met. Sadly,
(18:45):
the son took his own life when he was just
thirty four. It is believed Person X also has a daughter.
They were the children of a different woman. Possibly the
woman who was with him when police caught up with
him on the train from Rocampton in nineteen seventy five
and arrested him for Rosy's murder. So that's what we've
(19:09):
been finding out about Person X, and it's thanks to
another trip to Serena, the people we met and those
we've been in contact with since. Hello, Hey, William, it's
Paula Donovan. How are you going?
Speaker 6 (19:25):
Not too bad?
Speaker 2 (19:26):
William Large is the person who remembered the children who
lived in the house with Person X. He was a
kid himself and used to play with them.
Speaker 6 (19:35):
I was eleven, just before twelve. I would turned twelve
in March, and everything was nice and as I would say,
it was cool and funky and kids had a good time.
It was fairly a safe area really. As kids, we
didn't get home until nighttime. We were pretty well safe
around the area, so it was good fun times.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Would you often play at each other's houses?
Speaker 6 (19:54):
Oh yeah, yeah, we often be playing down other kids places.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
He resided on Serena Beach Road and remembers where everyone lived.
Speaker 6 (20:02):
There was another house at the end of the road,
then Heathers, and then Margaret's, then Arnie Jones's, and then
there was a made of mine and I went to school.
He lived in the next house after that. Then there
was the Barquey's. The next two houses. I can't really
say much about their older people, and we didn't have
much to do with them. Then there was a set
(20:23):
of white flats on Beach Road. They're still there, I think.
Then there was a high blockhouse, and then there was
our house, and then there was a spare allotment, and
then there was a servis's house, and then there was
another house on the corner that was our side of
the road. So I do remember the houses and most
of the people that lived there at the stage.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
William knew one of the children who lived with Person.
Speaker 6 (20:47):
X as far as I can remember, then his father
figure didn't see eye to eye very often.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
How are you aware that they didn't see eye.
Speaker 6 (20:55):
To eye, just as kids you hear that from the kid,
did tell Dad did this again? Or he did this
again or whatever it was. I knew they didn't see
the eye to eye. I've got in trouble again. I mean,
my father and I never saw right eye a lot either.
But it was the same situation type thing back in
those days. You got smacked. It was just the time.
(21:15):
But he never mentioned to me that my dad has
been violent, or Dad's bashed me up last night or
anything like that. He never said anything like that to me.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Willim also has a clear recollection of Margaret.
Speaker 6 (21:27):
I do remember her because one thing that does stick
in my mind with about her was because she only
just lived down the road from us, but she was
sitting on her front steps there one day, and she
was the one actually told me that Elvis Presley had
died when I'm on the way home from school. So
that was August seventy seven, So I can still remember
that sitting there telling me that our families were like friends.
(21:51):
So we've actually been down to her place a couple
of times. It was good. The reason why we remember
that is because I grow up, I was known as David.
I've got a brother, Colin, and the sister Leslie. My
younger brother wasn't born at that stage. But Margaret's father's
name was David, her son's name was Colin, and her
(22:12):
daughter's name was Leslie, So her daughter was very unusual
that we'd all have the same names in the two
different families.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
What do you actually remember of Margaret, of who she
was not.
Speaker 6 (22:24):
That much, but we did go down there occasionally. I mean,
as eleven year old, you're playing with kids, so you're
not worried about what the adults are doing at that stage,
and especially back in the seventies where it was kids
that would be seen and not her type thing. But
I do remember as a lovely lady. She was a nice,
friendly lady. She loved the kids could tell that.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Did she appear to be well received in the community as.
Speaker 6 (22:47):
Far as I could tell, as I said as an
eleven year old, yes, she was perceived to be well received.
She made friends fairly quickly, like her next door neighbor
Hair there she is the babysit for her as well,
so being in town only a short while, she'd made
friends like, as I said, my mum and dad acquaintances.
(23:08):
I'm not sure if they're good friends, but there are acquaintances,
and we've gone down there a couple of times, and
she seemed to be well liked.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
William's memory is vivid on many accounts, including the night
that Margaret died.
Speaker 6 (23:21):
Margaret's next door neighbor, Heather, she was actually up at
our place. Her and her partner at the time. We
were up at our place playing Canasta. At the end
of the night, when the games had finished and they
about the head home. We walked them outside and we
could see the police lights and the hears and everything
down the road, and we'd actually thought it was one
of had there's other neighbors. He was known as a
(23:44):
bit of an alcoholic, and we just thought he'd passed away.
It wasn't until the next day that we found out
it was Margaret, but head that would have found out
that night when she got home.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
So did you go down there yourself at all to
have a look?
Speaker 6 (23:56):
No? No, not that night.
Speaker 7 (23:57):
No.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
And were you anyone from your family interviewed by police
following Margaret's death.
Speaker 6 (24:04):
I think both my mother and father were. I can't
remember when or what times it was, but I'm pretty
sure mum and dad were both interviewed.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
And do you remember much of how her death impacted
what people were talking about?
Speaker 8 (24:22):
I know, you're young, Yeah, I still remember.
Speaker 6 (24:25):
That's probably why I do remember it so vivid, is
it was just that everybody was so shocked when it
came out as a suicide, because nobody could believe it.
I mean, that was the big talk that it should
have been still classed as murder, and no one could
believe that it was a suicide. So I think that's
(24:46):
why I've remembered it so well, because it was the
first person that I know at a violent death, and yeah,
I think that's why it's impacted. And then I remembered
so it's so much of who was there at the
time and everything, but no one could believe that it
was a suicide. It was just so dumbfounded that they
called it a suicide in town. I can still remember.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
That was the disbelief about it being a suicide more
to do with who Margaret was or to do with
the nature of her injuries.
Speaker 6 (25:15):
I think it was a little bit to do it both,
but it was I think a lot more to do
with the nature of the injuries because the word had
got around it that there was three implements and stuff
like that. It was just so hard to believe that
someone could cut their own throat with three different implements
and they call it a suicide. That was, I think
(25:36):
was the biggest disbelief of the lot.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
William was interviewed by police when the matter was investigated
again in two thousand and three, so was his mum,
and Large, or Georgie as she's known these days, she
agreed to talk to us. When we headed up to Serena,
Chal wasn't there this time. I took with me Peter Howard,
(25:58):
who was a well known PLO in the area forty
years ago. Many members of the Serena community remembered him
or his name, and he was warmly welcomed. Good Peter
bridged the gap between the members of the Serena community
and us the outsiders. Tell me how you met Margaret
(26:19):
Curstonfelt walked and knocked on her door.
Speaker 8 (26:22):
She came out and I said, I'm the girl from
up the road. I'm in Large. She said, I'm Margaret Cursed.
I said, welcome to the neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
So two country girls, Yeah, meeting.
Speaker 8 (26:34):
That's it. I just said to her, do you want
to come? But she said, oh, I'm going up town
to see if I can get a job at the diner.
And I said, oh, yeah. They give her a trial run.
And she asked me, would I'll be able to look
after the kids for her? And I said, yeah, mate,
no problem. She said, when Malcolm's not home, you know,
And I said, that's no problem. I got a couple
of kids on my own. I'm when I take a
(26:57):
couple like fool. Yeah, I got photos of them too, somewhere,
and I don't know where. Of the kids, Yeah, sitting
up home.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
So Anne or Georgie would look after baby Leslie when
Margaret did her shift at the pie cart, and she
did so on the evening Margaret died. She'd get her
own children to push Leslie up to her house in
the pram.
Speaker 8 (27:22):
Kids go down and pick the kids up and bring
them up in the prem And oh, yeah, that night
when I was bringing Leslie.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Up, this is the night there, yeah, of Margaret's death.
Speaker 8 (27:33):
When I went the afternoon when I brought Leslie up,
I said to David, run back and get Margaret to
give you some milk from but you know, so I
raced back down and Margaret was just top heading out
to work. So I'd give it some milk and you
come home with it. He said to me, she's going
to work early to die. I said, she must have
(27:53):
an early start because the diner used to go to
midnight and open again at four. Used to me there
for the pub goers and the mill workers, she workers
and everything like that. It opened from four o'clock in
the morning to midnight, so you only got pour out
was just bend. So that's why you have shifts.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
So she would have come into contact with a lot
of people.
Speaker 8 (28:16):
People, Yeah, because he got all the little workers, all
the railway workers, construction workers at that time.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
And Or Georgie was also an acquaintance of Margaret's neighbor,
Heather Hanson. In her statement to police, Heather says she
and Anne spoke to Margaret outside her bedroom window and
on the steps of her home just hours before she
was found dead seven pm.
Speaker 4 (28:41):
She sat on the front steps and spoke for ten
minutes or so.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Well, tell me about the last time you saw Margaret alive.
Speaker 8 (28:47):
It was when I took Leslie back to her.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
She Yeah, Heather Hanson was with you or in the vicinity,
I believe. According to the police report, she was a
redheaded woman that lived on the other side of Margaret.
So she lived at number thirty one.
Speaker 8 (29:05):
Could have been too. I can't remember. There's a lot
of things I can't remember.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
So you've been babysitting daby Leslie. Yeah, yeah, and.
Speaker 8 (29:16):
When she comes home she if the kids, Well, the
kids were always out and they see see one of
the kids, and they say, we can tell mom to
bring so they slip back, or I'll come up and
get her so I know we'll bring her back.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
The David that Georgie is referring to is her son William,
who we just heard from earlier. His name is actually
William David Large, but his mum prefers to use David.
That last time you saw her, the police report reads
that you and Heather were there and probably around.
Speaker 8 (29:49):
Seven o'clock and at that time, yeah, do.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
You remember what Margaret said to you at all?
Speaker 8 (29:54):
She said, I'm going to have a sleeping tablet, a
glass of wine and hit the hay. So what about
Leslie wakes up for the night. She said, I'll have
her in bed with me.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Did she office it with Leslie in the bed with her?
Speaker 5 (30:07):
YEP.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
I found these statements of Georgie's quite interesting. If Margaret
was going to bed, then why change into a mini
dress the outfit she was wearing when her body was discovered.
If Margaret had taken a sleeping pill with a glass
of wine, how would this have affected her? Would she
(30:32):
have slept heavily? Would she have been hard to awaken?
Would her movements and reactions have been sluggish. Remember the
witness statements about the night of Margaret's death, describing her
as dopey and having the shakes.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
She picked quite dopey, and I took it that she
was taking the nerve tablets that the doctor had given her.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
I wonder this because if Margaret had been attacked, it
may explaining why there didn't seem to be any defensive wounds.
Remember what pathologists, doctor Nigel Buxton had to say.
Speaker 5 (31:08):
If it is proposed that a second person was responsible,
the lady must have been very cooperative or unconscious.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
What if she was too affected by a sleeping pil
and alcohol to react. The toxicology report found alcohol in
her blood and in her bile, but no drug or
poison in her liver or stomach. It's not knowing what
tests were carried out though, and whether substances picked up
(31:36):
today would have been detected forty years ago. Then there's
a comment that baby Leslie would sleep in the same
bed as Margaret. Neither Margaret's husband, Malcolm nor her sister
Debbie can recall Margaret's sleeping with her baby. However, if
this had become a regular occurrence, why then was Leslie
(31:57):
found in a cot in a separate room on the
night Margaret died.
Speaker 6 (32:01):
I was surprised to see a baby asleep in the
front just inside the door. I think it was quite
a lot.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Sure, had Margaret changed her routine at the last minute
or did someone else move the baby to the other room. Anyway,
back to Georgie and do you remember what she was
dressed in when you saw her?
Speaker 8 (32:23):
Just a summer mighty satin sumer mighty.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
No shortened T shirts.
Speaker 8 (32:29):
No, unless she got changed later, I don't know. Because
she was ready to hit the hay. She said, I've
had a tough day, large issues that I'll hit the hay.
I'll see you in the morning, make no problem. I said,
if you're that tired, do you want me to come
down and picked Leslie up and let you have a
day if you're not working. And she said, oh, that'd
(32:53):
be great. And David was the one that come and
told me that Margaret.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Was Georgie says she didn't even know that Margaret and
Malcolm's marriage had broken up. She thought he was away
looking for work one time.
Speaker 8 (33:09):
She said it he's gone back down where we come
from to look for work, down there we might be
moving back down there. So I said, that's a bit
of shame, because hey, no, she was pretty good. And
like I said, you know, if she was having trouble,
she come up home, have a cuppa, you sit down
down and talk. Don't know what about, but we'd talk
(33:30):
and she said, I'll picked the kids up now and
go home.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
I said, yeah, okay, So she developed a little bit
of a support network here. Do you remember meeting your
family at all?
Speaker 8 (33:41):
Oh? They did come up one time.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
I don't know for her twenty first birthday.
Speaker 8 (33:46):
Might have been, might have been, but yeah, and I
remember meeting mom and dad. I think that might have
been when I met them all because Margaret said, where
am I going to camp a mall? And I said,
I plenty floor's face.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Did she seem depressed or anything to you?
Speaker 8 (34:06):
Not as far as I can tell. Let's so, yeah,
I used to take a sleep and tablet and have
a glass of wine or something and knock out. You know,
you go for it.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Then you did you leave after that?
Speaker 8 (34:22):
Yeah? Like I was outside talking to her through the
louvers of her been. Remember did you.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Talk to anyone after you saw.
Speaker 8 (34:31):
Margaret in the garage? Mean place. I kind of Jones,
you live next door talking to him for that for
a while.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
When you're talking to Arnie Jones. Did you see anyone
go to Margaret's face?
Speaker 8 (34:44):
Like in the White Bend?
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Do you know what sort of panel van?
Speaker 8 (34:47):
It was like a sitting.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Like the old Sandman the seventies. Yeah, it was white, yeah,
hot it up at all or.
Speaker 8 (34:58):
White Bend?
Speaker 2 (35:00):
So just one male in the car. And did he
get out of the car?
Speaker 8 (35:04):
Yeah, he got out, knocked on the door. She must
have said, come in.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
So did you talk to the guy or did you
ask him who he was? I can't remember what he
looks like? How is he dressed?
Speaker 8 (35:15):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
You can't.
Speaker 8 (35:18):
I just can't remember. All I know there was a
white car.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
She said she had no idea who the man was,
but knew who he wasn't kicking off names such as
Gary Hopkins or the person we've previously referred to as
b This man or panel van was not mentioned in
the final police report and did not feature in the
(35:48):
official timeline of Margaret's movements on the day of her death.
The only reference we have to anyone with a panel
van is Lindsey. He was one of a group of
people at Margaret's home the night before she died, and
according to Marsha Breed's statement, there had been tentative arrangements
(36:09):
that Lindsay would pick her up on the Friday night
to visit friends in Mackay, but Margaret had declined the offer.
She said to Lindsay, don't worry about coming out.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
He said, Okay, see you on Sunday.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
When did you learn Margaret had died that night? Because
of the police presence, and.
Speaker 8 (36:34):
My eldest held the son chantristic. What I can remember
is they told David not to hang around there because
Margaret's been found dead and she was on the front lawn.
So he come run on home and he told Nate.
So I sort of went halfway down.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
At what point did you learn that the investigation had
turned into one of suicide? Well, that basically that Margaret
had taken.
Speaker 8 (37:04):
Her own life, great robot, And he said to me,
largely she killed this off. I said, nah, just like that, Lissa,
will you mean nah? I said, she got two kids, mate,
she loved those kids. Why would she do that? I said,
you better look for something else.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Georgie says she spoke with police at the time of
Margaret's death and then when it was reopened as a
cold case in the early two thousands. There is no
statement from her attached to the police report we obtained
for this podcast, and given we are testing her memory
of an event more than forty years ago, her account
of the night slightly differs to the information in Heather
(37:46):
Hanson's police statement. Georgie couldn't remember being with Heather when
she visited Margaret on the night she died. Georgie also
said Margaret was dressed in a ninety at the time.
Heather told police Margaret was dressed in black shorts and
a green and purple blowers when she and Anne saw
(38:06):
her at her house around seven pm. When Margaret's body
was found, she was dressed in a polka dot cotton
mini dress and bra. Those items, along with the nightie,
were among the exhibits collected from the crime scene and tested.
Heather also stated her and Anne spoke to Margaret through
her bedroom window and then Margaret came to the front
(38:28):
door and sat on her steps to talk to them,
whereas Georgie said she only spoke to Margaret through her
bedroom window. We also caught up with another witness mentioned
in police Detective Milton Hassenkhan's report. She lived in the
vicinity of Margaret and knew her. The witness does not
(38:48):
want to be identified, so we'll call her Pearl and
Serena Beach Road at the time in the seventies was
somewhere I imagine at night, which would have been very dark.
There was really no street lighting here, was there.
Speaker 5 (39:01):
She was not much lighting. It might have been a
bit better, but not much good at all, and it's
very dark. But Beach Road was very young because we
used to go to the beach at night time because
that's the only place she could sort of have some fun.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
I visited Margaret's home on Serena Beach Rode at night
to see how dark it was, even with a limited
amount of street lighting there is today. It was eerie.
How was the town impacted on when Margaret died? What
was the feeling and talk amongst the local community.
Speaker 5 (39:42):
There was a lot of concern whether she did do
herself in or whether it was somebody else hurting, and
whether it's going to just stop at her place or
whether it was going to travel on to other people.
Because it was really scary. It was a bit of
an effort to go to work every day.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
You were worried for your own personal safety.
Speaker 5 (40:02):
Yeah, yeah, people around too, because you know, her not
being a locals, so we didn't know it's just because
of her, or whether there was some lunatic gone off
the rails that were say up to hurt other people,
because yeah, Serena never had anything like that before.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
So will perhaps be targeting a vulnerable young woman who
was living on her own.
Speaker 5 (40:28):
Well that's right too, because yeah, she did it by
herself and with little kids. And there was a lot
of young people, young ladies with kids at that time
where the husbands or not living with anybody around. So yeah,
everyone was sort of on tend to look hooks. It
was very scary because even the police had sort of
(40:50):
go around if you're uptown to make sure you're home
at a decent time, because they were a bit worried
about our safety too. And it was really scary because
we do not first murderer madmen around and we didn't
know who it was, where it was somebody that you
could talk to every day, or it was a stranger.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
How did the community learn that Margaret's death, which was
first treated as a murder was then being treated as
a suicide. How did the community receive that news.
Speaker 5 (41:20):
They thought it was suicide because they didn't think Serena
would have somebody like that that would murder another human being.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
What do you think happened to Margaret?
Speaker 5 (41:30):
What I remember Margaret? I don't think she would have
took her own life because she loved the kids and
she just liked life. She loved life. Now, I don't
believe she would have done it to herself. I think
somebody had heard her and yeah, and they got away
with it by the looks. And that's the sad thing.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
The other thing that this woman and William Large and
his mother, George, you remember distinctly about the time is
the presence of a prowler in the street.
Speaker 6 (42:10):
Oh God, yes, oh God, yes, do you remember that prowler?
He scared the Jesus out of me a few times,
running his fingers up against the wall and knocking on
the wall, and our tall It was not a thunderbox
that was outside. They had to walk down the backstairs
through the garage, and it was outside the house. And
there'd been a couple of times where you go to
(42:31):
the toilet at nighttime before you go to bed and
there'd be a knock on the door and there'd be
nobody there.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
How long did that go on for weeks?
Speaker 6 (42:39):
Oh? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The police tried to catch him
and he was really quick. I think he opened the
window one time and my brother's room and my brothers
said go away or something like that. He did strike fear,
and not fear, but just scared because he'd just do
it constantly, and like we'd have four or five nights
in a row and he would.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Do it while you're father was home or not home.
It wouldn't matter, it wouldn't matter. And did he strike
at a particular time of night?
Speaker 6 (43:06):
Well, as kids, we used to go to bed back then,
it was probably of eight thirty, so it was after
that time. Yeah, it'd be laying in bed. Next thing
you hear that the fingernails go at the wall.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
When Margaret died, did that change how people fell? Did they?
Some of the local residents have told me that they
started locking their doors, they started shutting windows.
Speaker 6 (43:27):
Yeah, yeah, it did change, even our place. I mean
they proudly hit our place a fair bit, but like
doors were never locked back in those days, but the
doors were starting to be locked, and.
Speaker 8 (43:44):
I've got the coppers on. I said, come on instead
of sit not there drinking fucking beer, or get your
asses down here. So we've got a prouder and they
know when Billy goes to work and they start.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
So that was your husband then knew and when he
would go to work, and then what would happen.
Speaker 8 (44:04):
Oh, they'd come and try and try and climb through windows.
Margaret was lucky she had lovers. I had windows and
not other people's houses. He'd bang on the wall. But
we got him because, I said, Craig Robertson, I said,
how am I going to catch him? When the armed
man goes to work? And he looked at me and said, well,
where a best does he go? So he goes around
(44:26):
near the toilet because that's where the kids are down
that way. But anyway, I said, right, yeah, So as
soon as I heard him coming in banging on the walls,
I'd go outside and hold the shovel. Home the shovel
and I'm standing there ready to swing.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
They and the.
Speaker 8 (44:48):
Large it's me. Why didn't you sing out front?
Speaker 5 (44:55):
He said?
Speaker 8 (44:55):
I didn't want to. He said, you really going to swing?
Speaker 9 (44:59):
That?
Speaker 8 (44:59):
Won today? It did be a dead bastard. So anyway,
he said, well that's the idea. He said, we haven't
seen any but we're knocking off now. And I said, here,
as soon as you go, he'll be here because he's
spotted you.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
So you think he was someone who was watching what
everyone's habits were.
Speaker 8 (45:20):
So Craig went home, brought his own car back and
he sat down the bottom of the backyard there in
the car well. People and Tom didn't go that way.
So well, I had a jugger. I was boiling it
near the bed, and I said, if that bastard comes
through window to night, because I can't sleep in it clothes,
(45:43):
it's got to be open. So put the arm through
and through jugg of water overy screaming and carrying on
to the copper. Got there, he was gone like the wind.
Robbo went up to the hospit because that's the first
place is hit had because he had got burnt down
(46:03):
the face and down the arm. So yeah, it happened
to the hospital.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
William also remembered the incident involving the prowler and boiling water.
Speaker 6 (46:16):
Yes, yes, so I was going to say that, but
I didn't know if I should or not. But he
brought it up. It waited in there with a part
of boiling water, and when it came down, she threw
the bailing water over him.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
But when I asked former police officer Craig Robertson, he
couldn't recall the incident. It is also unclear as to
whether this person was arrested or charged, but he did
leave Serena. So do you remember how long in relation
to the reports of the prowlers around Serena Beach Road
(46:51):
were happening in relation to Margaret's death.
Speaker 5 (46:54):
Oh, I think it was only a couple of weeks
before Margaret's death, but it was just a weekends, but
it happened. It was very strange because we were all
a bit worried.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
The prowler, you remember, was taking clothes from people's lines,
mostly female clothes.
Speaker 5 (47:10):
More females than males. And that person was not being
on windows.
Speaker 2 (47:15):
You know, at the timing would have been in relation
to Margaret's.
Speaker 5 (47:17):
Death, probably a few weeks beforehand.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
Did Margaret ever talk to you about her concerns about
the prowler.
Speaker 5 (47:24):
I think she was worried because she had the little
kids there, but I don't think she ever really said
much about it. But I know we did have really
a lot of trouble with the prowler because everyone was
really scared.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
Did Margaret ever talked to you about how scared she was?
Speaker 8 (47:40):
No, she didn't say anything about being scared.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
Did she say anything about sleeping with a knife under
a mattress?
Speaker 8 (47:46):
Or she told me that.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
There was something else that all three knew about too,
something that former police officer Craig robertson and briefly touched
on when I interviewed him.
Speaker 7 (48:04):
It's here say, but I do recall that a diary
or appointment slash book was located in the house, and
that there were a number of male names in that book.
(48:26):
But at no time did I see that book or
was I given any names from that book.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
A book with men's names in it. We know that
Margaret had kept a diary in the past. We've read
excerpts from the one she wrote in nineteen seventy five.
Spent the day drinking with Colin at first, and then
with Wayne and Ivan. But was this something different? Was
it something more? Georgia remembers a steady stream of men
(49:00):
coming and going from Margaret's home.
Speaker 8 (49:04):
I said to her one time, what are you running
a book?
Speaker 2 (49:09):
Because there were so many men? How did she take that?
Speaker 6 (49:14):
Like?
Speaker 8 (49:15):
They just laughed? She said, what do you mean running
the book? She said, I'm not taking on bets. And
I said, I didn't mean that kind of book.
Speaker 2 (49:24):
Love you meant? Was she working as a prostitutor or
a sex worker? And what she say?
Speaker 8 (49:31):
She said, well, I've got to get some extra monday somehow.
I said, yeah. My mum always told me was sitting
on the gold mine and don't know how to use it.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
So do you think she was working quietly as a prostitute?
Speaker 8 (49:44):
Good honor? What she could do?
Speaker 2 (49:46):
Why not working at the diner wasn't enough for her?
Was she still working at the dinat?
Speaker 8 (49:50):
No?
Speaker 2 (49:51):
No, she was trying to make ends meet, you think, yep?
And what do you know of these rumors? Is that
she had kept some sort of little black book on
the men she was seeing.
Speaker 8 (50:04):
I don't know whether she did or she didn't. If
she was on the game, she'd have to so that
she'd know who has to pay and who's paid, unless
she's got a better mind than mine.
Speaker 2 (50:16):
I also spoke to Pearl about the black book.
Speaker 5 (50:19):
I don't know if they asked or I heard about
Margaret keating up black book, but I think they were
mainly males names in it. I don't know who they
were or anything. Yeah, the detectives might ask me that
when they did come around to my house.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
Was the black book elsa the men that she may
have been seen.
Speaker 5 (50:38):
I think she liked these men that she had names
in this black book, but I wouldn't have a clue
who they were or anything. It was just talk the
town sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (50:52):
So if that little black book does indeed exist, what
could it mean for the case. At the very least,
it holds a list of names of people who were
known to Margaret and knew where she lived. If she
was murdered, could it be motive for someone who discovered
she was recording names. Perhaps she was expecting someone on
(51:15):
the night she died and things went bad. Remember witness
k Mattin saw Margaret sitting on her front steps around
ten thirty pm on the night of her death. Perhaps
someone turned up when she wasn't expecting them and things
turned bad. Perhaps there were jealousies, unfulfilled expectations, disputes over money,
(51:39):
or angry outbursts. Here's Pearl again.
Speaker 5 (51:44):
I think she might have had a couple of close
male friends that might have been thinking that they mightn't
have been getting the services that they wanted from them.
But I don't know for them for sure. That's just
my theory.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
But how does Margaret's family feel about this suggestion of
a little black book and the possibility that perhaps Margaret
was dabbling in prostitution for some extra cash. Would she
have done so before or after Malcolm had separated In
the two weeks prior to her death, Remember, she was.
Speaker 1 (52:22):
In a receipt of sixty five dollars per week benefits,
forty five dollars of which was paid for rent, and
only twenty dollars on which to keep her children and herself.
Speaker 5 (52:31):
For the week.
Speaker 2 (52:33):
Here's Margaret's sister deb.
Speaker 9 (52:37):
Well, when we got together, and the purpose of us
getting together was to talk about this as well as
to check on how we were traveling with the podcast
and our reactions. There wasn't any hesitation in going forward
with the concept of the black Book or the potential
that she might have been having sex for trading it
for goods, or whatever she might have been doing with it.
(53:00):
It wasn't something that shocked any of us. Her daughter said,
this is not a time to hold back, and it's
not about whether she was sexually active or not. This
is about finding the truth, and that was the general
tone of what was said. Mum believed that we shouldn't
hold anything back. If we needed to put it out there,
we needed to put it out there, so there was
(53:20):
no discontent or disagreement. It was just let's do what
we have to do.
Speaker 2 (53:24):
Do you think it is something that Margaret would do?
Would she be someone who would keep a black book?
Speaker 9 (53:29):
Yes? I think it is very much a reasonable thought
that she would, even if it was just casually, because
in nineteen seventy five her diary was full of names
of people that she had slept with. I found that
book and read it secretly, which she wasn't very happy
about when she did find out. But it wasn't something
(53:50):
that was new to her to write the names down.
Speaker 2 (53:53):
Could that mean that if there was a black book,
there may not necessarily be when she was earning money
to sleep with, but it would be something that she
may just be chronicling or journaling as she had before
in nineteen seventy five.
Speaker 9 (54:06):
Well, I think that certainly could be the case, because
it was definitely the case back then where she wrote
good fun at the events with boys and things as well.
You know that she wasn't actually sleeping with I mean,
I've had people who knew her back then talk about
where she used to sneak out of the pictures, the everything.
(54:26):
But they weren't always having sex. They were just running
around town, you know. So it was about having fun.
It was also about just the way she must have
liked to keep her memories, you know. But yes, it's
not off the table that she could have been asking
for some favors for it as well. I didn't have
examples of that as a younger woman, but certainly I'm
not surprised if she did. I know Mum had sent
(54:49):
some money to her because she was struggling a couple
of times, so she didn't have a lot of money.
Speaker 2 (54:54):
The pregnancy and money seemed to be on Margaret's mind.
Her friend Marsha Braied told that on February seven, three
days before her death, Margaret dropped in to see her
in Mackay, and told her she was going to have
a pregnancy test and also see legal aid about child maintenance.
Speaker 9 (55:13):
And look, she is was a fighter. She she would
do what she needed to do for those kids, you know,
and she wouldn't see that as something that was completely wrong. So, yeah,
she was already doing some work at the pie cart
and picking up little bits of where she could do
something that obviously her world was going to change with
(55:34):
the impending pregnancy that she thought she had. Yeah, it's
a hard place to be sitting thinking how am I
going to raise my family? How am I going to
feed them? So even when Malcolm would have been there,
I mean, she was pretty much a single num because
he was working away all the time. So and that's
the way life was, but that she'd have been quite
(55:55):
used to thinking, well, okay, how do I get through
each day?
Speaker 2 (55:58):
So you weren't surprised in the episodes that you have
heard where people have raised that Margaret had a reputation
for being promiscuous.
Speaker 9 (56:07):
No, I was not surprised with that at all. It
just made sense to me because that's part of what
I remember of her when she was younger. And once again,
that's not putting her down. She was just happy and
a fun going girl. You know. It seemed to be
something that she made her feel good.
Speaker 2 (56:29):
No one in the family can I remember ever being
questioned about a diary or book before.
Speaker 9 (56:34):
I don't remember anything being mentioned or discussed about the book. Yeah,
I don't because and some of that I was actually
with her or either on the phone, and I don't
remember some of those about being raised.
Speaker 2 (56:49):
One thing that is for sure, this little black book
has not come to light just yet. Don't forget. The
(57:12):
Cold Case Investigation Team, a unit within Queensland Police Homicide Squad,
want people to come forward with any information they have
and to contact crime stoppers. We too would like to
hear from anyone who remembers Margaret and anything about her
death or who may be responsible.
Speaker 5 (57:31):
I had somebody comes forward and I'm up to it
or know who has done it and double them in,
because should the family be left not knowing the real
reason why they hurt her. She's got the family that
still doesn't know what happened and why they did it.
Because Margaret was a lovely person and she wouldn't hurt anybody.
Speaker 6 (57:56):
There has to be somebody there that knows. That's the
big thing that this has to be somebody that knows
what's happened. Because it was only a small community and
everybody knew everybody, so whether it was just a passing
word or something that somebody heard and just come forward
with it because it may lead to something. It may not,
(58:20):
but it may lead to something, and we'll get a
finish to this.
Speaker 2 (58:31):
Until then, Pendulum will be on hiatus. As soon as
we have news or some interesting information, we'll let you know.
(58:57):
If you have information about the Margaret Kurston Felt case,
please let us know. Email us at Pendulum podcast at
gmail dot com or go to seven news dot com
dot au. Forward Slash Pendulum presenter and executive producer Paula Donovan,
(59:24):
Writer and producer Sally Eels. Sound design Mark Wright, Graphics
Jason Blandford, producer Annette Caltabiano. Transcripts Charlie Dally Watkins. Our
theme music is the Clock Is Ticking by Dark Org Music.
(59:46):
See our show notes for full music credits. With thanks
to seven News Brisbane
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