December 29, 2019 • 25 mins
Finally, we are able to reveal the identity of Person X. But, what does it mean for the families of Margaret Kirstenfeldt and `Rosie`?
Credits:
Presenter / Investigative Crime Journalist - Paula Doneman
Producer / Writer - Sally Eeles
Sound Design - Marc Wright
TV reporter - Mackenzie Ravn
Graphics - Jason Blandford
With thanks to:
The team at 7 News Brisbane, Annette Caltabiano, Georgia Done, Letitia Wallace, Susan Bush, Charlie Dally-Watkins, Alex Wright Media, Mackay City Council Library.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Pendulum wishes to advise that some listeners may find parts
of the following podcast episode Confronting It contains details of
sexual violence and trauma. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander. Listeners
are also advised that reference is made to deceased Indigenous people.
(00:27):
In nineteen seventy eight, a young mum dies violently in
a small Queensland town. Suicide or murder? What happened to
Margaret Kirstenfeld? Someone knows? This is Pendulum episode thirteen.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I'm Paula Dunnoman. We have some news. We're finally able
to reveal the identity of Person X. The legal risk
we face with naming him one of defamation no longer applies.
(01:25):
The reason he has recently died. We found out in October,
a matter of days after our last episode, episode twelve,
was published, that Person X passed away on September eleven,
at the age of sixty nine, and he was cremated
(01:46):
in a private ceremony on September sixteen. He'd been living
at Frenchville, a suburb of Rockhampton, and we understand he'd
been suffering liver complications. There was a small death notice
in a local newspaper one i'd missed earlier, despite my
(02:07):
frequent online searches for his name.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Passed away peacefully on Wednesday, eleventh September twenty nineteen, aged
sixty nine years. Beloved and loving partner to Jillian, loving brother, uncle,
and friend to many.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
When I told Margaret Kirstenfeldt's sister Deb the news, the
phone went quiet. I left it to her to tell Bunty,
Leslie and the rest of the family. I spoke to
Rosie's niece in person. She was numb at first, and
then she almost collapsed of a whirlwind of emotions, anger, shock, disappointment, relief.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
Best and foremost, I would like to see justice for
my Auntie.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
As for the children who recalled being abused by this man,
each is quietly contemplating what his death means for them.
For some, it means finality, the end of a real
life boogeyman who terrorized and traumatized. For others, it means
(03:24):
a chance at finding answers was.
Speaker 5 (03:26):
Lost, absolutely some deflating moments.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Here's Margaret's sister Deb when I.
Speaker 5 (03:32):
First heard this, and most of the family members felt
the same of deflated and the mixture of anger that
this man was highly likely to have been involved with this,
and he's not going to be held to account now
in this lifetime. So we've found that quite quite disturbing
in some ways and a little bit frustrating that we
(03:55):
haven't had a chance to really go down that path
of finalizing.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
We still don't know what his involvement was, but obviously
there was enough of his past to raise concern amongst
investigators to the point where the end up sort of
becoming quite a dividing issue amongst the investigators. How did
Bunty take the news.
Speaker 5 (04:18):
As mum always does, she was very just went quiet
for quite a while and sort of shrugged her shoulders
and just for gone what more can we do? So
she was I think incredibly disappointed that she didn't couldn't
get a label or of her name at the end
of this that was final. So I know with Leslie
(04:40):
she was very angry. I got a message from Leslie
that she's had to go out and bash them golf
balls around to get the anger out of her systems. Yeah,
so it's been a mixed bag of emotions. But then
we've come full circle with realizing that, you know, we
all have a much better understanding of the storeory of
(05:00):
what was happening. So it's not it's not all anger.
It's just frustrating that person hasn't been held to account
or contribute to what happened to Margaret.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
In terms of that, maybe something further could have been done,
possibly to flesh out his involvement, although he has repeatedly
denied any involvement in her death in the times that
police have interviewed him.
Speaker 5 (05:24):
Yeah, when we were aware of that, but at the
same time, we thought a lot of the years, times change,
thoughts change, that maybe at some point something would have
changed a bit further and had some answers. And I
guess the other part that we did think of is
that if she is such an intimidating character that maybe
without his presence, maybe somebody could still step forward who
(05:46):
knows something. I would love to have somebody who knows
something who might have been too scared just to step up.
I mean, this is another family that's really affected by
or could have been this man's in the intervention with Margaret.
So please step up and just let us know if
you know anything, if he was holding you back.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
I too, am disappointed for both the Kirstenfeldt and Heart families.
I'm angry I never found him in time. Angry I
never got the chance to question him and put all
our fresh allegations to him. Before I reveal the identity
(06:33):
of Person X, I need to make a few things clear. Firstly,
the information that I have collected about this man is
not evidence or proof of anything. It neither implies guilt
nor innocence. It is simply information. This man has never
been charged over Margaret's death. While he was once charged
(06:56):
with Rosy's murder, he was not convicted there for, he
is entitled to the presumption of innocence. A core principle
of Australia's criminal justice system is that a person is
innocent until proven guilty. Secondly, while the defamation risk has
been eliminated with his death, once we name Person X,
(07:18):
there is an increased risk of identifying Rosie and the
children who once suffered abuse at his hands. I needed
to have their approval first. Rosie's niece consulted family members.
She confirmed they all wanted this man's identity revealed, and
even gave approval to identify Rosie. Rosy's real name was
(07:44):
Queenie Hart. Here's her niece deab.
Speaker 4 (07:48):
A family didn't get justice. The law failed our family.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
As for the children, the ones we've previously called John
and Jane, they too gave us permission to name Person X,
although by their request we still won't be revealing their
true names or those of their siblings. Person X was
known by two names. We believe he changed it some
(08:20):
time in the nineteen eighties. From my searches at court
and the state archives. It doesn't appear to be an
official change. It was not done by deed poll. It
was just something he did. Person X was born Stephen
Henry Kyme on January twenty, nineteen fifty, and he went
(08:44):
by that name in the nineteen seventies, when he lived
near Margaret Kersenfelt, and when he was charged with murdering
Queen ee Hart. By the nineteen nineties, he was Christopher
Edward Turner Chris Turner, sometimes known as Crusty or Pineapples.
After laboring at farms in Yeppoon. Perhaps he changed his
(09:09):
identity because his name and violent pass immediately put him
in the crosshairs of the detectives investigating Margaret's death. Turner
was the name under which he was convicted and jailed
in the nineteen nineties for drink driving. When he knew
Lenny Fraser, and when I spoke to him back in
two thousand and three, that's the name he took to
(09:33):
his grave. I have been reaching out trying to find Gillian,
the woman listed as his partner in his death notice,
but had no luck so far. Police have also spoken
with the children who once lived with person X, unraveling
the memories of the siblings we've called John and Jane.
(09:58):
What happened to them and what happened to the teenage
babysitter whose Stephen Kim attacked. She's someone we would love
to find and as for Margaret's death, it is unknown
where the Queensland Homicide detectives from the Cold Case Unit
interviewed Kime or whether his death impacts their investigation. They
(10:21):
are currently re examining the case and are awaiting results
of forensic testing, hopeful that new technology may provide a
clue as to what or who caused her demise. Some
of the people we've spoken to have raised valid questions
about the case. One in particular came from retired police
(10:42):
officer Peter Howard. He got thinking about the bruise on
Margaret's chin and can't see how the injury could have
taken place as she fell and died on the ground
outside her neighbor's house.
Speaker 6 (10:58):
My theory, my thoughts that she was murdered I certainly
have to do with what I saw on that night,
and that been that there was a bruise, that there
was this massive cut to the threat, and my belief
(11:18):
was that the bruising was due to a blow that
occurred prior to the throat being cut. There was by thoughts,
I know, the theories that were advanced were that she
had a fall trying to go and get help. However,
after reading those statements recently that I'd never seen before
(11:44):
about it a fall the night before, obviously it could
be possible that that was an injury that happened the
night before. But you know, you've got to look at
all the other circumstances. So you've got to be sleeping
in the bed within twenty feet of where apparently Margaret's
(12:07):
trape was cut, and understood the theory that she's overall
just lay there a quietly source of sauce for her
own trade just seems highly improbable. I would think it's
more probable is that if she was stunned or disabled.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
For the blade, but not sure it's the timing of that.
Speaker 6 (12:28):
Way that's correct, that's correct, but the fact that the
bruiser had gone blue and also would indicate to know
that it happened sometime before, so that would give some
particular weight to an injury the night before.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
His reasoning is this, for a bruise to form blood
mass pool by the time Mygaret fell in the yard,
she had all but bled out because of the enormous
gash to her throat. Would there even have been enough
blood left in her body to pool on former bruise?
Could she really have stumbled so far with a shocking
(13:15):
injury to her neck? According to forensic pathologist doctor Nigel Buxton,
Margaret would be able to walk several meters with a
serious throat wound. Doctor Buxton, who specializes in the examination
of knife injuries, said he had seen cases where people
had managed to walk short distances with severed jugular veins
(13:37):
and arteries. And as for the news about Chime's death,
this is what Peter Howard had to say.
Speaker 6 (13:45):
His proximity to the place where Margaret died and his
activity simulation to Queen, your heart always gave me great control,
and I think for no other reason, I feel quite
comfortable that he's tied because he's not going to incept
(14:10):
any injuries on anybody else. Whilst we can't say this
any evidence to connect him to Margaret's death, the same
cannot be said for Queen Hart.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Also Georgie otherwise known as Anne Large her comment that
Margaret planned to take a sleeping pill on the night
of her death.
Speaker 5 (14:40):
She said, I'm going to have a sleeping temperate glass
of wine.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Leslie wakes up for the night, she said, I'll have
her invent with me, and then mentioning Hea the hands
in statement that she'd had pills for her nerves.
Speaker 7 (14:57):
After we left the hospital, she went to the chemist
and how to prescript filled for nerve tablets. She told
me previously that she had a nervous breakdown some years before.
I noticed that she was always trembling and shaky.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
If Margaret had access to such drugs and was planning
to take her life, why didn't she offer an overdose
on sleeping tablets or nerve tablets. Why would she choose
such a violent and painful way to die instead? I
(15:31):
spoke with someone who shed light on the medication Margaret
took in nineteen seventy eight. This person does not want
to be identified and spoke on the condition of anonymity.
As we already know from Detective hausen Khan's report, on
the day of her death, after leaving the Serena doctor,
Margaret had a prescription filled for nerve tablets at the
(15:52):
local chemist. This person told me at the time Margaret's
prescription was for valium and the scripts were events in
lots of twenty five or fifty with a five milligram
dosage for each tablet. They thought Margaret's last script was
for twenty five tablets. This person also told me that
(16:14):
during the subsequent investigation, police found her bottle of valium
and after they counted tablets, between three and five tablets
were missing from the bottle. This could mean Margaret took
several tablets prior to her death. However, the results of
Margaret's autopsy report showed no signs of drugs in her system.
(16:40):
Armed with this new information about Margaret's medication, I emailed
doctor Buxton. He told me pathologists could test for valium
in nineteen seventy eight. This is what doctor Buxton had
to say.
Speaker 7 (16:54):
It is probable that if twenty five milligrams was taken
in one hit within six hours of death, it should
show positive at autopsy. A divided dose over the course
of twelve hours may not. In the early seventies, when
I did clinical work, valium was a drug of choice
with over doses but rarely killed, and was taken in
twenty to fifty tablets in one hit. They just slept
(17:17):
for a while.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
I also asked him what sort of effect a cocktail
of valium and alcohol would have on Margaret, and doctor
Buckson said it depended whether Margaret had used the drug
before and how often, whether her body would be used
to its effects. There's also been no sign of the
(17:48):
so called little black book Margaret is meant to have kept,
containing the names and details of men she knew in Serena,
and now appearance or mention of the bloody gun belt
found by Serena police in the weeks after Margaret's death
had been declared as suicide. That's the gun belt the
(18:09):
former Rockampton detective Clary Williams told Serena officers to send
to the homicide squad in Brisbane the gun belt that
could have belonged to Stephen kim Aka person X. If
you recall, Margaret's friend Marsha Breed remembers he was wearing
(18:30):
it on the night before Margaret died.
Speaker 8 (18:33):
I saw the man Steve had a gun and he
had a bullet belt around his waist.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Was this gun belt ever sent to Brisbane? If so,
did it arrive? Was it misplaced or was it ignored
because the case had been deemed closed? And who is this?
Willis person listed in the items of evidence file, the
person whose clothing was taken for forensic examination. We have
(19:01):
not been able to confirm who this is. Police Officer
Neil Rayward, who examined the scene at Margaret's house and
police stationed at Serena at the time, did not know
who it was. Residents of Serena from the nineteen seventies
did not recognize the name either. I have also spoken
(19:23):
to the oldest son of Detective Milton Hassenkam, the lead
investigator on Margaret's case. If you remember, Detective Hassenkam concluded
in his report that Margaret had taken her own life. However,
his oldest son, Paul Hassenkam, has revealed to us that
his father confided in him that he believed Margaret was murdered. Paul,
(19:50):
a retired Queensland police officer, emailed us a written statement
in which he described his father as a highly regarded
detective with dogger determination and attention to detail, an investigator
who was thorough and when elements of a case didn't
add up, he rigorously searched until he found the answers.
(20:13):
This is part of Paul Hassenkam's statement.
Speaker 8 (20:16):
I remember he told me he had real issues coming
to terms with findings that she committed suicide. As time
went by in his retirement, he reflected upon the case
more and more. He told me he respected the professional
opinions of others, but disagreed with their findings. I believe
that his agreement with others, as mentioned in his death
report of suicide, was to satisfy others in authority. I
(20:39):
know that he would have always kept an open mind
regarding her death and quietly continued his personal line of
thought and an investigation. However, without finding sufficient evidence to
change the official outcome. He had that gut feeling and
always said you should never disregard it. He used to
joke with me towards the last days in hospital. I
will know before you you do who murdered them all.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
And the developments have not just come in the matter
of Margaret Kirstenfeldt, but the story of Queeny Hart, otherwise
known as Rosy, which sparked outrage and dismay among our listeners.
Queenie was the twenty eight year old woman found naked
with her arms bound in the Fitzroy River in Rockhampton
(21:30):
in April nineteen seventy five. Stephen Kim had violated her
with sticks and reeds. Her arms were trussed behind her
back with her slip which had been knotted twice behind
her shoulders. Kime was charged with her murder at the time,
but when the case went to trial, the charge was dropped.
(21:53):
Queenee's mother had wanted her body returned to her hometown
of Sherburg, but because government inspectors controlled her finances, like
many other families and Aboriginal communities in the nineteen seventies,
this never happened. Instead, Queeny was buried in an unmarked
grave at Rockhampton. Queene's niece has said her family still
(22:16):
wants her Auntie's remains returned to fulfill the wishes of
her now deceased grandmother.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
I would like to see my aunties remains to be
excelled and give a proper communal burial in the hometown
of Sheerbeg paid by the Queensland government. It's very sad.
It is an indicamental on our criminal justice system that
(22:44):
allowed her killer to walk free. There is no doubt
in my mind she was murdered.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
And now that may take place as Debbie hopes to
work with the Department of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander
Partnerships to bring her Auntie home. We would like to
(23:16):
thank many of our listeners who have provided us with information,
leads and context as special thanks to the courageous families
of Margaret Kirstenfeldt and Queenie Hart who placed enormous trust
in us to tell their stories. They were two country
(23:38):
women who left their hometowns for a new life that
met a brutal end. Their lives will be forever linked
by their proximity to Person X, also known as Stephen
Khim or Chris Turner. Both deaths remain cold cases. The
(24:08):
Pendulum Podcast is again on hiatus. We are still chasing
information and are waiting to hear the outcome of the
current police investigation. If you have information about the Margaret
(24:48):
Kirstenfeld case, please let us know. Email us at Pendulum
podcast at gmail dot com, or go to seven news
dot com dot AU. Forward Slash Pendulum presenter and executive
(25:11):
producer Paula Donovan, Writer and producer Sally Eels. Sound design
Mark Wright, Graphics Jason Blandford, producer Annette Caltabiano. Transcripts Charlie
Dally Watkins. Our theme music is the Clock Is Ticking
(25:32):
by dark Org Music. See our show notes for full
music credits. With thanks to seven News Brisbane
Pendulum wishes to advise that some listeners may find parts
of the following podcast episode Confronting It contains details of
sexual violence and trauma. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander. Listeners
are also advised that reference is made to deceased Indigenous people.
(00:27):
In nineteen seventy eight, a young mum dies violently in
a small Queensland town. Suicide or murder? What happened to
Margaret Kirstenfeld? Someone knows? This is Pendulum episode thirteen.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I'm Paula Dunnoman. We have some news. We're finally able
to reveal the identity of Person X. The legal risk
we face with naming him one of defamation no longer applies.
(01:25):
The reason he has recently died. We found out in October,
a matter of days after our last episode, episode twelve,
was published, that Person X passed away on September eleven,
at the age of sixty nine, and he was cremated
(01:46):
in a private ceremony on September sixteen. He'd been living
at Frenchville, a suburb of Rockhampton, and we understand he'd
been suffering liver complications. There was a small death notice
in a local newspaper one i'd missed earlier, despite my
(02:07):
frequent online searches for his name.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Passed away peacefully on Wednesday, eleventh September twenty nineteen, aged
sixty nine years. Beloved and loving partner to Jillian, loving brother, uncle,
and friend to many.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
When I told Margaret Kirstenfeldt's sister Deb the news, the
phone went quiet. I left it to her to tell Bunty,
Leslie and the rest of the family. I spoke to
Rosie's niece in person. She was numb at first, and
then she almost collapsed of a whirlwind of emotions, anger, shock, disappointment, relief.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
Best and foremost, I would like to see justice for
my Auntie.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
As for the children who recalled being abused by this man,
each is quietly contemplating what his death means for them.
For some, it means finality, the end of a real
life boogeyman who terrorized and traumatized. For others, it means
(03:24):
a chance at finding answers was.
Speaker 5 (03:26):
Lost, absolutely some deflating moments.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Here's Margaret's sister Deb when I.
Speaker 5 (03:32):
First heard this, and most of the family members felt
the same of deflated and the mixture of anger that
this man was highly likely to have been involved with this,
and he's not going to be held to account now
in this lifetime. So we've found that quite quite disturbing
in some ways and a little bit frustrating that we
(03:55):
haven't had a chance to really go down that path
of finalizing.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
We still don't know what his involvement was, but obviously
there was enough of his past to raise concern amongst
investigators to the point where the end up sort of
becoming quite a dividing issue amongst the investigators. How did
Bunty take the news.
Speaker 5 (04:18):
As mum always does, she was very just went quiet
for quite a while and sort of shrugged her shoulders
and just for gone what more can we do? So
she was I think incredibly disappointed that she didn't couldn't
get a label or of her name at the end
of this that was final. So I know with Leslie
(04:40):
she was very angry. I got a message from Leslie
that she's had to go out and bash them golf
balls around to get the anger out of her systems. Yeah,
so it's been a mixed bag of emotions. But then
we've come full circle with realizing that, you know, we
all have a much better understanding of the storeory of
(05:00):
what was happening. So it's not it's not all anger.
It's just frustrating that person hasn't been held to account
or contribute to what happened to Margaret.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
In terms of that, maybe something further could have been done,
possibly to flesh out his involvement, although he has repeatedly
denied any involvement in her death in the times that
police have interviewed him.
Speaker 5 (05:24):
Yeah, when we were aware of that, but at the
same time, we thought a lot of the years, times change,
thoughts change, that maybe at some point something would have
changed a bit further and had some answers. And I
guess the other part that we did think of is
that if she is such an intimidating character that maybe
without his presence, maybe somebody could still step forward who
(05:46):
knows something. I would love to have somebody who knows
something who might have been too scared just to step up.
I mean, this is another family that's really affected by
or could have been this man's in the intervention with Margaret.
So please step up and just let us know if
you know anything, if he was holding you back.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
I too, am disappointed for both the Kirstenfeldt and Heart families.
I'm angry I never found him in time. Angry I
never got the chance to question him and put all
our fresh allegations to him. Before I reveal the identity
(06:33):
of Person X, I need to make a few things clear. Firstly,
the information that I have collected about this man is
not evidence or proof of anything. It neither implies guilt
nor innocence. It is simply information. This man has never
been charged over Margaret's death. While he was once charged
(06:56):
with Rosy's murder, he was not convicted there for, he
is entitled to the presumption of innocence. A core principle
of Australia's criminal justice system is that a person is
innocent until proven guilty. Secondly, while the defamation risk has
been eliminated with his death, once we name Person X,
(07:18):
there is an increased risk of identifying Rosie and the
children who once suffered abuse at his hands. I needed
to have their approval first. Rosie's niece consulted family members.
She confirmed they all wanted this man's identity revealed, and
even gave approval to identify Rosie. Rosy's real name was
(07:44):
Queenie Hart. Here's her niece deab.
Speaker 4 (07:48):
A family didn't get justice. The law failed our family.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
As for the children, the ones we've previously called John
and Jane, they too gave us permission to name Person X,
although by their request we still won't be revealing their
true names or those of their siblings. Person X was
known by two names. We believe he changed it some
(08:20):
time in the nineteen eighties. From my searches at court
and the state archives. It doesn't appear to be an
official change. It was not done by deed poll. It
was just something he did. Person X was born Stephen
Henry Kyme on January twenty, nineteen fifty, and he went
(08:44):
by that name in the nineteen seventies, when he lived
near Margaret Kersenfelt, and when he was charged with murdering
Queen ee Hart. By the nineteen nineties, he was Christopher
Edward Turner Chris Turner, sometimes known as Crusty or Pineapples.
After laboring at farms in Yeppoon. Perhaps he changed his
(09:09):
identity because his name and violent pass immediately put him
in the crosshairs of the detectives investigating Margaret's death. Turner
was the name under which he was convicted and jailed
in the nineteen nineties for drink driving. When he knew
Lenny Fraser, and when I spoke to him back in
two thousand and three, that's the name he took to
(09:33):
his grave. I have been reaching out trying to find Gillian,
the woman listed as his partner in his death notice,
but had no luck so far. Police have also spoken
with the children who once lived with person X, unraveling
the memories of the siblings we've called John and Jane.
(09:58):
What happened to them and what happened to the teenage
babysitter whose Stephen Kim attacked. She's someone we would love
to find and as for Margaret's death, it is unknown
where the Queensland Homicide detectives from the Cold Case Unit
interviewed Kime or whether his death impacts their investigation. They
(10:21):
are currently re examining the case and are awaiting results
of forensic testing, hopeful that new technology may provide a
clue as to what or who caused her demise. Some
of the people we've spoken to have raised valid questions
about the case. One in particular came from retired police
(10:42):
officer Peter Howard. He got thinking about the bruise on
Margaret's chin and can't see how the injury could have
taken place as she fell and died on the ground
outside her neighbor's house.
Speaker 6 (10:58):
My theory, my thoughts that she was murdered I certainly
have to do with what I saw on that night,
and that been that there was a bruise, that there
was this massive cut to the threat, and my belief
(11:18):
was that the bruising was due to a blow that
occurred prior to the throat being cut. There was by thoughts,
I know, the theories that were advanced were that she
had a fall trying to go and get help. However,
after reading those statements recently that I'd never seen before
(11:44):
about it a fall the night before, obviously it could
be possible that that was an injury that happened the
night before. But you know, you've got to look at
all the other circumstances. So you've got to be sleeping
in the bed within twenty feet of where apparently Margaret's
(12:07):
trape was cut, and understood the theory that she's overall
just lay there a quietly source of sauce for her
own trade just seems highly improbable. I would think it's
more probable is that if she was stunned or disabled.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
For the blade, but not sure it's the timing of that.
Speaker 6 (12:28):
Way that's correct, that's correct, but the fact that the
bruiser had gone blue and also would indicate to know
that it happened sometime before, so that would give some
particular weight to an injury the night before.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
His reasoning is this, for a bruise to form blood
mass pool by the time Mygaret fell in the yard,
she had all but bled out because of the enormous
gash to her throat. Would there even have been enough
blood left in her body to pool on former bruise?
Could she really have stumbled so far with a shocking
(13:15):
injury to her neck? According to forensic pathologist doctor Nigel Buxton,
Margaret would be able to walk several meters with a
serious throat wound. Doctor Buxton, who specializes in the examination
of knife injuries, said he had seen cases where people
had managed to walk short distances with severed jugular veins
(13:37):
and arteries. And as for the news about Chime's death,
this is what Peter Howard had to say.
Speaker 6 (13:45):
His proximity to the place where Margaret died and his
activity simulation to Queen, your heart always gave me great control,
and I think for no other reason, I feel quite
comfortable that he's tied because he's not going to incept
(14:10):
any injuries on anybody else. Whilst we can't say this
any evidence to connect him to Margaret's death, the same
cannot be said for Queen Hart.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Also Georgie otherwise known as Anne Large her comment that
Margaret planned to take a sleeping pill on the night
of her death.
Speaker 5 (14:40):
She said, I'm going to have a sleeping temperate glass
of wine.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Leslie wakes up for the night, she said, I'll have
her invent with me, and then mentioning Hea the hands
in statement that she'd had pills for her nerves.
Speaker 7 (14:57):
After we left the hospital, she went to the chemist
and how to prescript filled for nerve tablets. She told
me previously that she had a nervous breakdown some years before.
I noticed that she was always trembling and shaky.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
If Margaret had access to such drugs and was planning
to take her life, why didn't she offer an overdose
on sleeping tablets or nerve tablets. Why would she choose
such a violent and painful way to die instead? I
(15:31):
spoke with someone who shed light on the medication Margaret
took in nineteen seventy eight. This person does not want
to be identified and spoke on the condition of anonymity.
As we already know from Detective hausen Khan's report, on
the day of her death, after leaving the Serena doctor,
Margaret had a prescription filled for nerve tablets at the
(15:52):
local chemist. This person told me at the time Margaret's
prescription was for valium and the scripts were events in
lots of twenty five or fifty with a five milligram
dosage for each tablet. They thought Margaret's last script was
for twenty five tablets. This person also told me that
(16:14):
during the subsequent investigation, police found her bottle of valium
and after they counted tablets, between three and five tablets
were missing from the bottle. This could mean Margaret took
several tablets prior to her death. However, the results of
Margaret's autopsy report showed no signs of drugs in her system.
(16:40):
Armed with this new information about Margaret's medication, I emailed
doctor Buxton. He told me pathologists could test for valium
in nineteen seventy eight. This is what doctor Buxton had
to say.
Speaker 7 (16:54):
It is probable that if twenty five milligrams was taken
in one hit within six hours of death, it should
show positive at autopsy. A divided dose over the course
of twelve hours may not. In the early seventies, when
I did clinical work, valium was a drug of choice
with over doses but rarely killed, and was taken in
twenty to fifty tablets in one hit. They just slept
(17:17):
for a while.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
I also asked him what sort of effect a cocktail
of valium and alcohol would have on Margaret, and doctor
Buckson said it depended whether Margaret had used the drug
before and how often, whether her body would be used
to its effects. There's also been no sign of the
(17:48):
so called little black book Margaret is meant to have kept,
containing the names and details of men she knew in Serena,
and now appearance or mention of the bloody gun belt
found by Serena police in the weeks after Margaret's death
had been declared as suicide. That's the gun belt the
(18:09):
former Rockampton detective Clary Williams told Serena officers to send
to the homicide squad in Brisbane the gun belt that
could have belonged to Stephen kim Aka person X. If
you recall, Margaret's friend Marsha Breed remembers he was wearing
(18:30):
it on the night before Margaret died.
Speaker 8 (18:33):
I saw the man Steve had a gun and he
had a bullet belt around his waist.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Was this gun belt ever sent to Brisbane? If so,
did it arrive? Was it misplaced or was it ignored
because the case had been deemed closed? And who is this?
Willis person listed in the items of evidence file, the
person whose clothing was taken for forensic examination. We have
(19:01):
not been able to confirm who this is. Police Officer
Neil Rayward, who examined the scene at Margaret's house and
police stationed at Serena at the time, did not know
who it was. Residents of Serena from the nineteen seventies
did not recognize the name either. I have also spoken
(19:23):
to the oldest son of Detective Milton Hassenkam, the lead
investigator on Margaret's case. If you remember, Detective Hassenkam concluded
in his report that Margaret had taken her own life. However,
his oldest son, Paul Hassenkam, has revealed to us that
his father confided in him that he believed Margaret was murdered. Paul,
(19:50):
a retired Queensland police officer, emailed us a written statement
in which he described his father as a highly regarded
detective with dogger determination and attention to detail, an investigator
who was thorough and when elements of a case didn't
add up, he rigorously searched until he found the answers.
(20:13):
This is part of Paul Hassenkam's statement.
Speaker 8 (20:16):
I remember he told me he had real issues coming
to terms with findings that she committed suicide. As time
went by in his retirement, he reflected upon the case
more and more. He told me he respected the professional
opinions of others, but disagreed with their findings. I believe
that his agreement with others, as mentioned in his death
report of suicide, was to satisfy others in authority. I
(20:39):
know that he would have always kept an open mind
regarding her death and quietly continued his personal line of
thought and an investigation. However, without finding sufficient evidence to
change the official outcome. He had that gut feeling and
always said you should never disregard it. He used to
joke with me towards the last days in hospital. I
will know before you you do who murdered them all.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
And the developments have not just come in the matter
of Margaret Kirstenfeldt, but the story of Queeny Hart, otherwise
known as Rosy, which sparked outrage and dismay among our listeners.
Queenie was the twenty eight year old woman found naked
with her arms bound in the Fitzroy River in Rockhampton
(21:30):
in April nineteen seventy five. Stephen Kim had violated her
with sticks and reeds. Her arms were trussed behind her
back with her slip which had been knotted twice behind
her shoulders. Kime was charged with her murder at the time,
but when the case went to trial, the charge was dropped.
(21:53):
Queenee's mother had wanted her body returned to her hometown
of Sherburg, but because government inspectors controlled her finances, like
many other families and Aboriginal communities in the nineteen seventies,
this never happened. Instead, Queeny was buried in an unmarked
grave at Rockhampton. Queene's niece has said her family still
(22:16):
wants her Auntie's remains returned to fulfill the wishes of
her now deceased grandmother.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
I would like to see my aunties remains to be
excelled and give a proper communal burial in the hometown
of Sheerbeg paid by the Queensland government. It's very sad.
It is an indicamental on our criminal justice system that
(22:44):
allowed her killer to walk free. There is no doubt
in my mind she was murdered.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
And now that may take place as Debbie hopes to
work with the Department of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander
Partnerships to bring her Auntie home. We would like to
(23:16):
thank many of our listeners who have provided us with information,
leads and context as special thanks to the courageous families
of Margaret Kirstenfeldt and Queenie Hart who placed enormous trust
in us to tell their stories. They were two country
(23:38):
women who left their hometowns for a new life that
met a brutal end. Their lives will be forever linked
by their proximity to Person X, also known as Stephen
Khim or Chris Turner. Both deaths remain cold cases. The
(24:08):
Pendulum Podcast is again on hiatus. We are still chasing
information and are waiting to hear the outcome of the
current police investigation. If you have information about the Margaret
(24:48):
Kirstenfeld case, please let us know. Email us at Pendulum
podcast at gmail dot com, or go to seven news
dot com dot AU. Forward Slash Pendulum presenter and executive
(25:11):
producer Paula Donovan, Writer and producer Sally Eels. Sound design
Mark Wright, Graphics Jason Blandford, producer Annette Caltabiano. Transcripts Charlie
Dally Watkins. Our theme music is the Clock Is Ticking
(25:32):
by dark Org Music. See our show notes for full
music credits. With thanks to seven News Brisbane
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