August 18, 2019 • 51 mins
Police theories, a post-mortem and a pathologist's finding: how it created conflict, confusion and conjecture. So, whose opinion is right?
Credits:
Presenter / Investigative Crime Journalist - Paula Doneman
Producer / Writer - Sally Eeles
Sound Design - Marc Wright
TV reporter - Mackenzie Ravn
Graphics - Jason Blandford
With thanks to:
The team at 7 News Brisbane, Annette Caltabiano, Georgia Done, Letitia Wallace, Susan Bush, Alex Wright Media, The Daily Mercury and Mackay City Council Library.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
In nineteen seventy eight, a young mom dies violently in
a small Queensland town. Suicide or murder? What happened to
Margaret Kirstenfeld? Someone knows? This is Pendulum episode five.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I'm Paula Donoman. A number of police investigating Margaret's death
were convinced she was sexually assaulted and murdered. The enormous
gash across her throat, the way her dress was bunched
around her hips revealing her naked lower torso, the fact
(01:08):
that she staggered all the way out to her neighbour's
yard and left a baby in her house all signs
they thought that pointed to foul play. The immediate hours
after Margaret's death would have been crucial in trying to
track down an offender, to conduct door knocks of local
(01:29):
residents to look for someone who was possibly covered in blood,
but police resources were limited back in nineteen seventy eight,
especially in a tiny Queensland town like Serena. Once they'd
checked the immediate area, Constables Peter Howard and Craig Robertson
(01:50):
had to secure the scene, called for backup and wait.
They couldn't leave Margaret's body or her sleeping baby to
conduct searches along the dark and lonely Serena Beach road,
nor could they leave Dale Payne, the young motorcyclist who
found Margaret and was now as a result, a chief witness.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
We didn't have a developed suspect, you know, like you'll
suspect the first person slayer and everything else. And my
recollection in the young pain was that he didn't have
any blood on him and it was visibly discoort or
if he did have blood on it, and of course
it was absolutely minimal from looking at the Lama moon,
(02:37):
but from recollection, I don't forget any on.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
Him at all.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
They waited for the ambulance to come and collect the
baby and take her to Serena Hospital, and they waited
for detectives from the Mackai Criminal Investigation Branch or cib
as it's known to drive the forty minutes to Serena cases.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
I was preserved the scene until the experts and the
investigators arrived. Remembery, that was a very junior constable, and
probably the reason that I had as much to do
with the thing that was obviously because I was first
on the scene, but also because I guarded the scene
up until CIB and a homicide squad. Right, So I
(03:21):
was at the scene of the investigation for an extended
period of time.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
And do you know, can you have any memory as
to when the CIV and or homicide had arrived at
the scene.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
We'll see I arrived that night, some of them from Macai.
I think from recollection that a larger contingent came the
next morning.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
The two young officers had to guard the scene all
night long.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
I'm probably stretching the memory, but I think homicide didn't
get there till the following evening or afternoon light afternoon.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
A doorknock of nearby homes did not take place for
several hours.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
I think when Laser I came down there was some
searching in the vicinity. But look, I'm really probably guessing,
but my memory is that daw Knox didn't start till
the next day.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
The officer in charge of MacKaye CIV at the time
was Milton Hassenkam, a detective senior sergeant with some twenty
years experience. He went by the name Bill and was
from a policing family. His father was an officer and
his sons would be two. He transferred to Mackay in
nineteen seventy six to stay for four years. At the
(04:43):
time of Margaret's death, he had already investigated four murders
in the area. He retired in nineteen eighty two, and
in an interview I did with him many years ago,
he recalled Serena as a very quiet country town. Detective
Hassenkam has since died. He passed away in twenty fourteen.
(05:06):
By the night of February tenth, nineteen seventy eight, Detective
Hassenkam called in the homicide squad, scenes of crime, police
and the government pathologist, doctor Ian Wilkie. All of them
flew from Brisbane to Mackaya the next day. These days,
that flight takes just over an hour and a half,
but four decades ago it would likely have taken longer.
(05:30):
Scientific Officer Neil Raywood was one of the specialists who
came up from Brisbane. He was highly experienced, having worked
in the field for eighteen years. We heard about his
examination of the scene in episode four that took around
two days. In between his investigations, he also attended Margaret's autopsy.
(05:50):
Her body had been taken to the makeshift morgue at
the rear of the Serena.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
Hospital, probably one of the worst morgues that has for
major hospital anywhere anyway, And it suggests that a crogate
lin shed at the rear of the hospital and it's
sort of been a freezer in there for maybe whole
one or two bodies. But it's certainly very primitive.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
It made more unpleasant I imagine with the North Queensland's
tropical heat.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
Ah definitely just not a place that you want to
be spending any time there unless you really got here.
It was a certainly not a friendly environment as far
as that was concerned.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
As your role in scientifics Neil, was it part of
your job to attend the autopsy.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
Yes, in any instance where there's a murder or a
suspicious death, I would always attend the autop season. Over
the years, I attended many hundreds of autops season. This
was just another one, and we just witnessed the pathologist
and maybe some give some advice about knives or weagonary
men might have found, or we may even in this
(06:55):
case had that knives and scissors with me. I can't recall,
but we certainly are there to answer questions that the
sologies may ask of us.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
And can you remember much of what happened during that
post mortem?
Speaker 4 (07:09):
Not? Really, No, I can't remember much that happened. If
the patholoius doesn't ask questions, I don't interfere, and I
cannot recall what information pathologists may have asked me, or
what information I could have parted to him.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
As we've already heard from his examination of the scene,
Officer Ray would believe Margaret had been murdered. Did you
share any of your initial feelings or insights with the
investigators on the scene.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
I possibly would have. We would have had conversations about it,
and I believe the investigators at that point in time
were more than have we to rite at the conclusion
that she had been a victim of foul play. And
I certainly could find nothing to suggest in any other
(07:57):
than foul play on that day, though I conducted examinations
of the scene, because of him a tremendous amount of
blood loss.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Doctor Ian Stuart Wilkie, a senior pathologist for the Queensland
Department of Health, carried out the post mortem. I recently
spoke with doctor Wilkie, who said, given the passage of
time and the high volume of cases he worked, on
he was unable to recall the details of Margaret's case.
This is part of his statement later submitted to the
(08:28):
Coronial inquest.
Speaker 5 (08:29):
Hi Ian Stuart Wilkie of Brisbane. It's not his voice
to solemnly and sincerely declare that On eleven February nineteen
seventy eight, at the Mackay Hospital, Morgue I made a
post mortem examination of the body of a female named
Margaret Ann Kurstenfeld.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
He explained in his statement that he collected specimens of
blood for Margaret's body, samples of bile from her liver,
and he also examined the contents of her stomach.
Speaker 5 (08:56):
I found the body to be a slightly built young
adult female in a dress and bra The clothing, neck,
chest and hands were heavily bloodstained. It was a slightly
irregular lacerated or incized wound at the point of the chin.
There was a deep incized wound across the upper anterior neck.
(09:16):
This was situated immediately above the larynx and extended to
the bosterior aspect of the pharynx. The left jugular vein
was severed. There were several superficial marks parallel to the
major wound two superficial marks extended laterally from the left
angle with a major wound, and four such marks radiated
from the right angle of the wound. There was a
(09:39):
wound about one centimeter long and three millimeters deep on
the right lower anterior neck. There was a punct to
wound to the left lateral wall of vagina extending into
the pouch of douglas. The uterus was enlarged, but histological
examination showed no evidence of pregnancy.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Remember On the morning of Margaret's death, she and a
neighbor had driven to Mackay Hospital. A doctor had examined
Margaret and thought she was six weeks pregnant, but she
needed a blood test to confirm it. Marret had also
confided in friends and her brother Brian, that she believed
she was pregnant to local man.
Speaker 5 (10:17):
I concluded that the cause of death was blood loss
from an insized wound to the neck. The appearance of
this wound is consistent that having been produced by a
serrated edge carving knife. The wound under the chin is
consistent in appearance with a laceration which could have been
produced by a fall or other heavy blow to the
chin with a blunt object.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Doctor Wilkie's statement says Mararet would have died from the
neck wound within a few minutes or less. He added
that the vaginal wound was minor and could have been
self inflicted, possibly caused by the blade of broken scissors
found in the kitchen. Doctor Wilkie then concluded the appearance.
Speaker 5 (10:56):
Of the neck wound suggests that it was self inflicted.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Self inflicted. Doctor Wilkie's findings where Margaret had likely taken
her own life, so in the space of a few
short days, what had originally been considered a murder was
now deemed a suicide. His scientific officer, Neil.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Rayward, I believe that Wilkie would have told the investigating
detectives there there hasn't camped it. Possibly would have been
one other detective that he was of the view that
he couldn't just count the suicide as a cause of death.
I do remember him saying that, and perhaps a result
of that, it may have changed thoughts that I had
(11:47):
in relation to the death and his experience with blood
life and wounding. You know, I would have to accept
his thoughts on that matter. I wasn't going to argue
with it or say anything.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
To the contrary was that because you didn't feel it
was your place or you were confident in.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
No, it's not my place. The pathologists, he's the experts
with bodies. I'm the experts with time scenes, and I wouldn't.
We may have had some discussion with the detectives after
in the absence of the pathologists, we possibly would have
that we found it hard to believe that suicide could
not be ruled out. But that's just talk of putting
(12:27):
the police at the time, and I think the evidence
from the pathologists was more accepted than the fact that
it would have been a result of foul play.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Can you recall of how that impacted on the investigation
or the reaction that the investigators.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
Well, I think there was a dismay amongst the investigators.
They don't believe anyone had cast their mind to that
being a potential suicide. But I think that the detectives
and investigating police would have continued a lot on their
normal part of inquiry to get eyewitness accounts or anyone
(13:05):
in the neighborhood. I don't think they curtailed their investigations
immediately and walked away from the fact that they thought
they investigating a murder, coming.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Off doctor Wilkie's findings that the injuries were most likely
self inflicted. Did you see that as something that would
be possible for someone of Margaret's stature, that she could
physically inflict such injuries upon herself.
Speaker 4 (13:29):
I'm not dispitting the evidence of doctor Wilbee, but I
must admit that I found it hard to comprehend from
what I had seen in the blood loss and of
the wounding, that a person could walk some three meters
from the scene and be found that on the grass
outside the place. But there was no real evidence that
(13:51):
a body had been dragged out of the house either.
There's no sphearing of blood along the hallway to the
front stairs. Somebody was carried out by another person. That
would could explain the fact there's no smearing of blood.
But it was certainly different. And I had never really
(14:11):
forgotten that death or the events surrounding the death. And
it's interesting that I'm for to you later, I'm talking
to you now about the circumstances of that particular death.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
From murder to suicide in just three days. So did
investigating police continue along their early lines of inquiry into
a murder or after the post mortem, did the detectives
subsequently wind down Margaret's case, It would seem the latter.
(14:52):
Just how much weight did Dr Wilkie's findings carry with
the investigators. This is Peter Howard again.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Yeah, it was treagous crimes, yes, and with the belief
that that was what it was believed was a murder
and that she'd been sexually sold in someway. That's before
the postward of examination. Obviously, after the postboard of examination,
the shift in the investigation of change how so well,
(15:27):
the senior investigators informed us that they believed it was
a suicide.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
So what was your reaction to that after being first
on the scene and being confronted with what you saw there,
that you'd walk through the house. You were literally the
first person there, So how did that news impact on you?
Speaker 3 (15:50):
It didn't sit well with me at all and has
never sat well with me. But obviously when you're very junior,
costable and very senior investigators there, your opinion doesn't carry
very much way.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Did you pick up on any dissension amongst the investigators
at all? You mentioned before that there was some belief
within the local police and some of the investigators that
Margaret was murdered.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
Look, I think that there was always concern by the
local police, definitely, and by some of the investigators.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
So by local police you mean Serena Police station and
investigators are you referring to the detectives and Mackay cib
Rocky and homicide.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
That's correct.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
When the pathologist, doctor Wilkie comes back and says that
he believed those injuries to be most likely self inflicted,
you were told by the investigators that they believed it
to be now to be a suicide. What then happened
to the scene and to the end investigation? Did it
continue in any way?
Speaker 3 (17:03):
By that stage had been a doorknock that had occurred
up and be on the street, and that was conducted
by the CID. And during the door knock that information
was relayed in and I was probably privy to more
of that information because I was at the scene for
(17:24):
while it started.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
So when the door knock was ongoing, is that when
the information was received about the injuries and being self inflicted.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Yes, the door knock, I'd say would have been would
have been completed by then from recollection, I think the
post mortem would have been done, not the day after.
We've ended.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
But the following day, and do you know what happened
or what the police found during that door knock of
local residents.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
I know that there was a person of interest was
identified living or living in the house that was very
close living this two doors up from Margaret's house.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
That person is who we're referring to as Person X.
There are a number of persons of interest in this case,
and in time will reveal what we can about them. However,
the discovery of this Person X so close to Margaret's
home sent alarm bells ringing for one. Rock Hampton Detective
(18:29):
Peter Howard remembers his concerns.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
I know I've definitely spoken about the house, but I
don't know any more than that, because once again I
come back to have been your gospel. And when you
have homicide squad and detectives, you know you're not normally
privileged to a lot of the things that take place
in those But I know that one of the investigators
(18:53):
from Rkington was quite concerned.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Was that investigator a detective by the name of Clarie Williams.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
Yeah, that's correct.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Did Clary talk to you, director? Is it something that you.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Interested I'd spoken to Clarie sing out there on the
road and ran the Serenda police station, but obviously not
have been a great length, but enough that he conveyed
his concerns. For more to the point's suspicions.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
And Clarie did he remain one of the people who
held the opposite view that it was in fact a murder.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Well, I really can't say for certain, but the impression
I had at the time was that he didn't believe
that it was a suicide.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Clarie Williams has long since retired. When I got in
touch with him recently, he told me that he no
longer trusted his memory to be able to do an
interview for this podcast. However, I still have his comments
from an interview I did with him for a newspaper
story in two thousand and six. Back then, he told me.
Speaker 6 (20:01):
The uniform police thought she was murdered. Some of the
detectives did too. The position of the body and the
nature of the injuries didn't indicate suicide to me.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Will reveal Clarie's concerns about person X later down the track.
He said that back in the nineteen seventies, officers were
unable to argue with the pathologist's findings as they carried
a lot of weight and credibility, and as a result,
the investigation changed course. Peter Howard remembers that too. Do
(20:35):
you know if there was anything else that had happened
before Dr Wilkie's decision was given on the autopsy.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
I know they spoke to several young fellows interactions with Margaret.
There were quite a few people spoken to, and as
I say, some of the young fullest friends of dials
because Dale obviously knew this woman as well. So obviously
that with a person who there at the scene of
an incident like this, are obviously created with a lot
(21:05):
of suspicion until such time as that suspicions eliminated.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
But how long did the suspicion stay once that it
moved from being a homicide investigation to a suicide investigation.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Virtually the investigation ceased.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
As soon as that decision had come down.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
Well, I think from my recollection, we got briefed by
Bill Hassen Can was in charge of mkasy IB. I
think it was the evening that the postmortem was done,
and I think homicide squad flew home on the next day.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
The murder investigation effectively ended and police statements appear to
have been taken on the basis that Margaret Kursenfelt had
taken her own life.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Paul, I'm aghast when I see more statement as to
how brief and how little detail was in it compared
to what would have happened even for a suicide. For
the coroner, I look at mistakements and I think this
is terrible, like as an offer a charge of the station.
(22:17):
If I if I had a junior cospable permission, I'll
stop back at him.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
It would ultimately be one year and nine months before
a coroner officially made his ruling on the cause of
Margaret's death. That's almost two years where an investigation may
have come up with further evidence that pointed to a
scenario other than suicide. On November twenty, nineteen seventy nine,
(22:53):
Coroner Gyroy Joyce found.
Speaker 7 (22:55):
The disease died as a result of a knife wound
to the throat.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
When I first read Coroner Joyce's finding, I thought it
was an open finding, as there were no reasons as
to how the injury was inflicted or by whom included
in the inquest documents I obtained for this podcast. The
evidence led during the inquest certainly pointed to suicide. I
sought an answer from Queensland's current State Coroner, Terry Ryan,
(23:25):
who responded in a written statement that under the nineteen
fifty eight Coroners Act, mister Joyce's finding was not an
open finding. He said an open finding would only be
given if the coroner was unable to answer the relevant
questions of who the deceased was, when, where and how
(23:46):
the deceased came by his or her death, and persons,
if any, committed for trial. I also tracked down mister
Joyce's deposition clerk, who worked for him for eighteen years,
but he was absent for Margaret's matter and was unable
to help. Before Coroner Joyce's finding was delivered, there were
(24:08):
several part hearings of the inquest held during nineteen seventy
eight and nineteen seventy nine in Serena, Mackay and Brisbane
to accommodate the numerous witnesses required to give evidence. The
first was convened in Serena on November ninth, nineteen seventy eight,
(24:29):
and was almost immediately adjourned to the following month December five,
at the Mackay courts Before Coroner Joyce, witnesses, including Margaret's
friend Marsha Breed nee Harris, took the stand to confirm
the statements they had provided to police. Some exhibits were tended,
(24:50):
including photos of the scene. Detective Milton Hassenkam submitted his
final report. He wrote that initially it was agreed that
Margaret had been murdered, and investigations proceeded with that thought
in mind. He added that the first two uniform police unseen,
(25:11):
Constables Robertson and Howard, thought that that was the case,
as did the detectives when they viewed Margaret's body at
her house. However, Hassenkham noted that it will.
Speaker 7 (25:23):
Be appreciated that investigators were not in possession of any
information regarding the background all movements of the deceased. When
commencing their investigations, Doctor Wilke pointed out that in addition
to the large, insized wounds across the throat, there were
several superficial marks parallel to the major wound. Two of
these marks extended laterally from the major wound on the left,
(25:45):
and four marks radiated from the right side of the wound.
There was another superficial wound on the right lower neck.
Doctor Wilke pointed out that the marks were such as
to indicate that they may have been self inflicted, and
in almost all cases of suicide in this manner, that
such wounds were evident.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Detective Hassenkam went on to explain that at first a
wound under the point of Margaret's chin was not discussed
until he asked doctor Wilkie again the following day to
examine it. When Hassenkam examined the crime scene and saw
the chin wound while Margaret's body was at her house,
he suspected the injury was the result of a fall
(26:24):
or being hit.
Speaker 7 (26:25):
He agreed that it was not consistent with a knife wound,
but consistent with a fall or a heavy blow to
the chin by a blunt object.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
The detective wrote that doctor Wilkie had also indicated that
while Margaret's uterus was enlarged, he did not think she
was pregnant. This was later confirmed by a histological examination or,
in other words, an examination of her tissue under the microscope.
Hassenkam's report claims that doctor Wilkie believed it would have
(26:57):
taken a few minutes or less for Margaret to die
from the time the wound was inflicted. With the evidence
before him, the seasoned detective came to the following conclusions.
Speaker 7 (27:11):
If I were to accept the fact that the deceased
died of her own hand, then certain factors remain unexplained,
namely the absence of blood between the kitchen and the
main bedroom and the presence of the blood on the
two rear doors. Upon reflection, then these two factors can
be explained in one of two ways. A. The deceased
may have decided to commit suicide in her bedroom and
(27:34):
took a knife and a tea tail into the bedroom
for that purpose. Finding that the knife's blade was not
sharp enough or was too pliable, she held the towel
to her throat, returned to the kitchen and obtained another knife.
Returned to the bedroom and successfully made the wound in
her throat. B. The deceased attempted to cut her throat
(27:55):
at the kitchen sink, stemmed the flow of the blood
with the tea towel, taken another knife, and come completed
the work in the bedroom. This then left traces of
blood on the rear doors to be explained and I
point out here that the deceased believed she was pregnant.
Having that belief in mind before she attempted to commit suicide,
she took the pair of scissors from the sink and
(28:15):
went to her bedroom, removed her pants, and attempted to
abort herself with the scissors. The wound bled, and she,
with her blood stained hands, then closed the rear doors
before she decided to suicide.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Detective Hassenham then goes on to explain that the wound
under Margaret's chin could have occurred any time after she
inflicted the wound to her throat and has fallen down
on some object and cut her chin.
Speaker 7 (28:42):
There would be little evidence of this because by that
time most of the blood in her body would be gone.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Currenter Joyce then adjourned the case to Brisbane, the capital
city of Queensland, to hear evidence from the expert witnesses
who resided there. That part hearing was held before a
different Man, Magistrate William Mackay on January ninth, nineteen seventy nine.
Among those to give evidence scientific police officer Near Rayward,
(29:11):
forensic scientist Michael Noonan, and pathologist doctor Ian Wilkie, who
was first to take the stand. The magistrate asked the
pathologist whether his inquiries revealed any suspicious circumstances in connection
to Margaret's death. Doctor Wilkie's response.
Speaker 8 (29:31):
No.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
A list of the samples collected by doctor Wilkie from
Margaret's body and Detective Rayward from the crime scene were
tended with the results of scientific testing. Among them were
Margaret's underwear, nighti dress, a tea towel, a double bladed knife,
a pair of scissors, bedding and a knife. Also tended
(29:57):
were several swabs of blood taken from a Margaret's home,
including the bedroom inside and outside, the kitchen door, outside
of the front door, and blood that had fallen onto
the grass. These were tested by the government scientist Michael Noonan.
Two blood groups were identified. Margaret's blood group was identified
(30:20):
as Type A. The other was a blood grouping called MN,
which is a subgrouping of a blood type. In this case,
most appeared to belong to Margaret. Blood grouping was used
in crime scene examination prior to the introduction of DNA.
The details of the test results of the exhibit seized
(30:40):
at Margaret's house for examination are not all consistent. This
could mean there may not have been enough blood to
extract for analysis, or no one else's blood was found
in the crime scene. The clothing, underwear and linen of
two people, including Person X, a man known to Rockhampton detectives,
(31:02):
were also tested. The man known to police was found
to have no blood on his underwear, pajama pants, shorts, shirt,
or towel. As for the other person, whose surname is
only mentioned in a list of scientific exhibits in all
the documents obtained during research for this podcast, while two
(31:25):
spots of blood were found on their t shirt and genes,
but apparently neither were the same as Margaret's. Interestingly, this
person's name is not included in Detective Hassenkam's final report
or any of the police statements we have obtained. Then,
(31:45):
Senior Scientific Police Officer Detective Neil Raywood was called to
the stand. This is a re enactment of the proceedings
according to the transcripts.
Speaker 9 (31:56):
Would you please tell the court your full and correct
name and rank please. My name is Neil Douglas Raywood.
I'm a Senior Scientific Officer of Police, an officer in
charge of the Scientific Section Commissioner's Office. Prisidan on the
eleventh of February nineteen seventy eight. Did you give him
a KI and make investigations concerning the death of Margaret
(32:17):
Ann Kirstenfeld.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Yes.
Speaker 9 (32:19):
As a result of that investigation, did you complete a statement?
Speaker 3 (32:23):
I did?
Speaker 9 (32:24):
Is this the statement completed by you?
Speaker 3 (32:26):
Yes?
Speaker 9 (32:27):
I'll tend to that statement as an exhibit your worship.
That statement is admitted and March exhibit nine. Did your
inquiries reveal any suspicious circumstances in connection with the death?
Speaker 3 (32:39):
No?
Speaker 9 (32:40):
Do you wish to make any additional statement?
Speaker 3 (32:43):
No.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
At the coronial inquiry into Margaret's death, Officer Row would
testify that his inquiries did not reveal any suspicious circumstances
in connection with the death. When I spoke with him recently,
this is what he remembers.
Speaker 4 (32:59):
I the realize that there was a detectives for rough
hamp And there who were fairly adamant that it couldn't
be suicide because they had a particular person of interests
who lived in the area who they believe may have
been responsible. So they were a little bit dismayed by it,
more so than the police from the Mccaia detectives. But
that's just a little side issue which perhaps isn't all
(33:21):
that important. It's just how police are suspicious nature that
they always must have to investigate the senses of this nature.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Do you recall there being in the person's of interest
interviewed and all checked for blood or their blood taken
to be compared to blood found at the scene.
Speaker 4 (33:39):
No, some other persons must have taken, who sound with
the blood from suspects in the area to the clentic
biology I eyge certainly he was not aware of any
further investigations. I just merely prepared a statement for the coroner,
and that was the last I'd heard of the events.
But I did understand that the investigat feed it out
(34:01):
and it was accepted as one of suicides from just
listening into the police got At.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
That point, Margaret's marriage had broken up, and I think
it was pretty quickly learnt from neighbors and friends of
Margaret that she believed that she had fallen pregnant to
a man she'd been seeing that obviously wasn't her husband, Malcolm.
That she'd been seeing several men over the previous few
weeks prior to her death. Is there any way, given
(34:27):
that we're talking about nineteen seventy eight in a completely
different era. What have Margaret's lifestyle or choices at all
colored the investigation and or Dr Wilkie while they were
forming opinions about what had happened to her.
Speaker 4 (34:42):
Yeah, I can't really comment on that. I don't think
even doctor Wilkie, he wouldn't have cast his mind who
information touches that he wouldn't have listened to, perhaps possible
suspects in the area. No, gentleman, and he would just
do a job professionally and not take anything like that
(35:05):
in the consideration.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
He just stick to the science of medicine and pathology.
Speaker 4 (35:09):
That's obviously the police would be more interested than those
issues than friensic scientists or friendic pathologists.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
So, to summarize what former forensic officer Neil Raywood remembers,
his investigations in nineteen seventy eight led him to believe
that Margaret's death was the result of foul play. He
was prepared to accept the word of the pathologist Ian
Wilkie that it was a suicide. It was not his
(35:41):
place to question. The final part hearing of Margaret Kirstenfeld's
inquest was held in Serena on March twelfth, nineteen seventy nine,
before a magistrate. Bill Smith. Among those to give evidence
Margaret's neighbor Heather Hanson, the young motorcycle who found her body,
Dale Payne, and police officer Peter Howard. In a newspaper
(36:08):
interview with me in two thousand and seven, the then
retired detective Hassenkam refused to be drawn on the case
as he did not want to jeopardize any potential future investigation.
Speaker 7 (36:20):
He told me, initially it was treated as a murder,
the medical evidence and evidence obtained at the time suggested
otherwise suggested suicide and that's where the matter ended as
far as I was concerned.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
However, he also said as an investigator he had always
kept an open mind. In nineteen seventy eight, Keith Smith
was a member of Queensland's homicide Squad. Hello hi, Keith,
it's Paulodonom and how you going. The squad had been
(36:57):
established just seven years prior to Detective Keith Smith had
been involved for about four He and fellow detective Bob
Cassidy joined colleagues from Rockhampton and Mackay to investigate Margaret's death.
Speaker 8 (37:11):
What I would like to make clear at the outset
is that my account is from recollections of the events
that occurred forty years ago, aided by some recent research
I carried out. On the tenth of February nineteen seventy eight,
it was that the body of Margaret and Kursedon Felt,
aged twenty one at the time, was on the footpath
(37:32):
a short distance from where she lived in Beach Road, Savena.
She suffered severe injuries to her throat and there's a
trail of blood leeding from her body in her bed.
Serena police and detectives from Mackay c IB carried out
the initial investigations and regarded the death as suspicious a
short specialist support and assistance from Brisbane. I'll get to
(37:55):
my role shortly, but initially the senior state forensic Pathologist,
doctor Ian Rookie traveled to Makai to performed the autopsy.
Doctor Rookie was recognized as one of the top pensicapologists
in the state. I also believe that a special senior
a forensic Officer, Neil Raywood from Brisbane scene. At that time,
(38:18):
I was a detective sergeant in the homicide squad in Brisbane.
My work partner was Detective Senior Constable Bob Cassidy. We
were sent to Serena to assist the local detectives.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
Was that normal practice back then that the regional or
local detective bureaus would ask homicide for help if it was.
Speaker 8 (38:38):
A crime it looked like a possible homicide and it
looked like it may not be easily resolved or quickly resolved,
and it could turn into a protractive investigation. The local
detectives could their local workload, of course, would call on
assistants from Brisbane and Homicide Squad were a state wide
squad and was quite often those situations where we would
(39:01):
go and take up.
Speaker 10 (39:02):
The local detectives and help them.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Unlike other police officers we've spoken to you, Keith Smith
has always believed Margaret committed suicide.
Speaker 8 (39:12):
Well, of course, by the time we got there, the
body being removed from recollection. I think the first time
I saw the body was at either at or following
the post mortem. The crime seen itself in the bedroom
and trail of blood leading from the bedroom out to
where the body was found certainly was profuse and it
was sort of I can understand why local detectives immediately
had some concerns about what exactly had occurred, but I
(39:36):
recall viewing the body after the post mortem in the
presence of Dr Wilkie. The neck and throat area had
been cleaned, and Doctor wilk explained to me that reason
behind his opinion that the wounds were self inflicted. He
indicated a number of minor lacerations on the throat in
close vicinity to the major laceration which had caused the
(39:56):
extensive bleeding and the subsequent death. Doctor Wilkie told us
that from his experience and studies of suicides of this nature,
it was almost always minor laserations obviously inflicted prior to
the final and fatal cup. It was like a tentative
practice or tested practice cuts. There was some evidence that
(40:18):
Kirsten Felt had believed that she was pregnant at the
time of her death and had attempted to self aboard
using a pair of scissors. First autumn had disclosed that,
in fact, she.
Speaker 3 (40:27):
Was not pregnant.
Speaker 8 (40:28):
The difference of opinion between investigating detectives was never really settled.
A subsequent coronial inquest held in McKay Senior Magistrate Gilroy
Duddley Joyce as Willy Joyce acting in his capacity as coroner.
Mister Joyce was a highly experienced magistrate. He'd been senior
Clerk of the Court and deputy magistrate in Rock Camp
(40:50):
and prior to being appointed as magistrate a long reach
period and then appointed manistraate Akai. I'm sure that the
final piece investigation.
Speaker 10 (41:00):
Report and I finished to report on half homicide squad
and all of other elevents would have been examined by
the current and possibly even I'm sure but possibly even by.
Speaker 8 (41:12):
The Director of Public Prosecutions. In my humble opinion, the
strong medical evidence of doctor Wilke and the lack of
any conflicting medical evidence, along with the lack of direct
evidence indplicating a second person, would have made it highly
unlikely that any person could have been committed to stand
trial over this depth lit alone guilty of either murder
(41:35):
or manslaughter. And in finality, I'll say this, in cases
such as this, all the available evidence is firstly examined
by the legal authorities. Mental proceedings in the magistrates' court
in Supreme court trials are lengthy and expensive. If the
available evidence is determined by those authorities, to be insufficient
(41:58):
and unlikely to result in the middle on subsequent conviction
of any person in the matter does not proceed. This
my recollections, is what occurred on this occasion, and I
have always accepted and agreed to that conclusion.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
Can I just ask a couple of questions and if
you can answer them, great, If not, that's that's okay.
With the weight of someone's expertise in standing, such as
Dr Wilkie when he comes back with the finding, or
you know, within a couple of days of Margaret's body
being found that it appeared that the injuries were self inflicted.
That then would have shaped the direction of the police investigation.
(42:39):
Would it not?
Speaker 3 (42:40):
Well? As far as I was concerned that it did.
Speaker 8 (42:44):
But I repeat, the local detectives.
Speaker 3 (42:47):
Did not accept that.
Speaker 8 (42:48):
They didn't accept that from again from recollection. They pursued
their line and inquiry as a possible murder. I've spoken
to those I need them, I need them well. I
knew those detectives well. I'd worked in your campus LB
and Mackay, and I knew them well. And I mean,
while we disagreed, I always admired them for their tenacity.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
The former detective is currently writing his memoirs. He agreed
to a second interview with me as he wanted to
further discuss the murder theory, the pattern of knife wounds,
signs of a struggle, and how Margaret's body made it
to the footpath.
Speaker 8 (43:26):
There's always been conjecture about the death of Margaret, and
Kursten felt even among investigating detectives that remains the case
even after forty years. Some believed that this was a.
Speaker 3 (43:37):
Murder, not a suicide.
Speaker 8 (43:39):
For the murder theory to be sustainable, the following facts
would have to be considered. So were no signs of
a struggle of resistance from Kurstone. If it was murder,
the perpetrator would have to have overpowered and secured her
somehow while he inflicted co lacerations to her throat. This
would have included what was described by the doctor Wilkie
(44:01):
has the number of tentative cups before the fatal cup
was infected. Okay, well, then how did the body get
from the bedroom to the footpath. There certainly was a
trail of blood, no drag marks indicating that the woman
was somehow upright, so she collapsed and died. It's hardly
likely that the murder would have carried bleeding body from
(44:22):
the bedroom to the footpath without leaving some evidence of
such movement. To me, the murder theory cannot be sustained.
I've always believed that this was a suicide as described
by doctor Wilkie. That's it.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
Is it possible that Margaret didn't struggle or didn't fight
back out of complete fear shock or possibly the killer
said to her if you scream, if you fight, if
you do anything, I will kill your baby. She had
her daughter sleeping meat his away in a cot. Is
that possible that, out of self preservation and protecting her child,
(45:01):
that she could have cooperated or not struggled.
Speaker 8 (45:05):
Well, I think it's possible, but it's unlikely.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
Okay. There is mention within the reports from the investigation
as well as from Neil Raywood that there were marks
along the wall indicating that that she was staggering and
had had steadied herself. So is it possible, given that
there was blood on the rear door and ar laundry door,
(45:30):
that the killer could have gone out the back and
Margaret has stumbled to the front for help.
Speaker 8 (45:36):
Well, that was suggested the murder was not very effective
because he left her alive.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Perhaps he was interrupted, but Bye thought he heard someone.
I mean there were there were there were cars going
past Dale Payne's motorbike. How was a child The baby
was seven months old. I see, Look, they're just things
that come to my mind. I guess when you know,
it's like when someone says when they're looking at it.
(46:01):
You know, when we're eight victims have seen cross examined
in court. Well, did you say no? Well, I couldn't
get the words out. Did you fight back? No, I froze.
Speaker 8 (46:12):
I was in shop that situation that occurred. She would
have just had to submit to whatever he wanted to
do to her and the slider passively and allow him
to do whatever he wanted to do. Now, if he
wanted to murder her, I would have thought, stand in
hard and chest a few times, cutting her throat and
(46:33):
leaving the indictive signs of several labservations. I mean, whe
it just doesn't well, it doesn't ring true to me.
That's all I can say it.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
I also had several other questions. Supposing Margaret had been
planning suicide, why would she go to the effort of
changing from shorts and a shirt into a mini dress.
Speaker 8 (47:00):
Why brother.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
Why put a knife with her hair on it into
the kitchen sink. Why wrap a tee towel around the
knife in the bedroom? Why stagger out to the neighbor's
yard where someone would find her, you speculated.
Speaker 8 (47:15):
I mean we could come up with a lot of ideas.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Yeah, But for me, again, it just throws up a
lot of questions.
Speaker 8 (47:20):
In these situations, you've you've got to really base your opinions,
and whatever you decide, you base them on the facts. Yes,
I mean there's a lot of conjecture can be a
confusing thing. I mean think that all these things it
could have happened, or might have happened, or could have
been But when you look at the facts and on
the evidence available, be courtact on evidence. They don't act
(47:41):
on conjecture, not what people might like to think happened
or what they think might have happened. I know we
will never settle the argument, but the facts are that
there's no medical evidence to conflict with doctor Milkin. He
was a pathologist. And it's okay for these people to
come forward now, these specialsts come out of would work
now and say, oh I know this wasn't it was
(48:03):
a murder, But what do they base say events, They
didn't see the body, they didn't do the past moretem
some of these cold cases, I think some people sort
of come out of the woodwork without any evidence.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
For me, again, it seemed that the investigation stopped reasonably short.
I don't know how farrough or how much it continued,
or how intense it was after Wilkie's findings.
Speaker 8 (48:27):
Yeah, well, see it's a long time. It's something that
had dropped right out of my mind. You know, even
when I was writing my memoirs. You said to me,
I didn't mention to write about this one and your memois.
I said, I didn't know, because to me it was
something that was conclusive and I wasn't a homicide. It
wasn't a homicide.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
Keith Smith said, Well, other detectives may never change their
minds believing Margaret was murdered. Neither would he change his
opinion that she took her own life. Next time, on Pendulum,
(49:07):
a father forever haunted by having to clean up after
his daughter's death.
Speaker 9 (49:12):
He would talk about involving it in.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
A husband struggles to understand why some nice nearly like
that crime? How could Margaret have taken her own life?
When she had so much to live for. If you
(49:57):
have information about the Margaret Kirsten fell CA, please let
us know. Email us at Pendulum Podcasts at gmail dot
com or go to sevenews dot com dot AU. Forward
Slash Pendulum presenter and executive producer Paula Donovan, Writer and
(50:25):
producer Sally Eels, Sound design Mark Wright, Graphics Jason Blandford,
Transcripts Susan Bush. Our theme music is the Clock Is
Ticking by Dark Orb Music. See our show notes for
(50:47):
full music credits. With thanks to seven News Brisbane
In nineteen seventy eight, a young mom dies violently in
a small Queensland town. Suicide or murder? What happened to
Margaret Kirstenfeld? Someone knows? This is Pendulum episode five.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I'm Paula Donoman. A number of police investigating Margaret's death
were convinced she was sexually assaulted and murdered. The enormous
gash across her throat, the way her dress was bunched
around her hips revealing her naked lower torso, the fact
(01:08):
that she staggered all the way out to her neighbour's
yard and left a baby in her house all signs
they thought that pointed to foul play. The immediate hours
after Margaret's death would have been crucial in trying to
track down an offender, to conduct door knocks of local
(01:29):
residents to look for someone who was possibly covered in blood,
but police resources were limited back in nineteen seventy eight,
especially in a tiny Queensland town like Serena. Once they'd
checked the immediate area, Constables Peter Howard and Craig Robertson
(01:50):
had to secure the scene, called for backup and wait.
They couldn't leave Margaret's body or her sleeping baby to
conduct searches along the dark and lonely Serena Beach road,
nor could they leave Dale Payne, the young motorcyclist who
found Margaret and was now as a result, a chief witness.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
We didn't have a developed suspect, you know, like you'll
suspect the first person slayer and everything else. And my
recollection in the young pain was that he didn't have
any blood on him and it was visibly discoort or
if he did have blood on it, and of course
it was absolutely minimal from looking at the Lama moon,
(02:37):
but from recollection, I don't forget any on.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
Him at all.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
They waited for the ambulance to come and collect the
baby and take her to Serena Hospital, and they waited
for detectives from the Mackai Criminal Investigation Branch or cib
as it's known to drive the forty minutes to Serena cases.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
I was preserved the scene until the experts and the
investigators arrived. Remembery, that was a very junior constable, and
probably the reason that I had as much to do
with the thing that was obviously because I was first
on the scene, but also because I guarded the scene
up until CIB and a homicide squad. Right, So I
(03:21):
was at the scene of the investigation for an extended
period of time.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
And do you know, can you have any memory as
to when the CIV and or homicide had arrived at
the scene.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
We'll see I arrived that night, some of them from Macai.
I think from recollection that a larger contingent came the
next morning.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
The two young officers had to guard the scene all
night long.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
I'm probably stretching the memory, but I think homicide didn't
get there till the following evening or afternoon light afternoon.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
A doorknock of nearby homes did not take place for
several hours.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
I think when Laser I came down there was some
searching in the vicinity. But look, I'm really probably guessing,
but my memory is that daw Knox didn't start till
the next day.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
The officer in charge of MacKaye CIV at the time
was Milton Hassenkam, a detective senior sergeant with some twenty
years experience. He went by the name Bill and was
from a policing family. His father was an officer and
his sons would be two. He transferred to Mackay in
nineteen seventy six to stay for four years. At the
(04:43):
time of Margaret's death, he had already investigated four murders
in the area. He retired in nineteen eighty two, and
in an interview I did with him many years ago,
he recalled Serena as a very quiet country town. Detective
Hassenkam has since died. He passed away in twenty fourteen.
(05:06):
By the night of February tenth, nineteen seventy eight, Detective
Hassenkam called in the homicide squad, scenes of crime, police
and the government pathologist, doctor Ian Wilkie. All of them
flew from Brisbane to Mackaya the next day. These days,
that flight takes just over an hour and a half,
but four decades ago it would likely have taken longer.
(05:30):
Scientific Officer Neil Raywood was one of the specialists who
came up from Brisbane. He was highly experienced, having worked
in the field for eighteen years. We heard about his
examination of the scene in episode four that took around
two days. In between his investigations, he also attended Margaret's autopsy.
(05:50):
Her body had been taken to the makeshift morgue at
the rear of the Serena.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
Hospital, probably one of the worst morgues that has for
major hospital anywhere anyway, And it suggests that a crogate
lin shed at the rear of the hospital and it's
sort of been a freezer in there for maybe whole
one or two bodies. But it's certainly very primitive.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
It made more unpleasant I imagine with the North Queensland's
tropical heat.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
Ah definitely just not a place that you want to
be spending any time there unless you really got here.
It was a certainly not a friendly environment as far
as that was concerned.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
As your role in scientifics Neil, was it part of
your job to attend the autopsy.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
Yes, in any instance where there's a murder or a
suspicious death, I would always attend the autop season. Over
the years, I attended many hundreds of autops season. This
was just another one, and we just witnessed the pathologist
and maybe some give some advice about knives or weagonary
men might have found, or we may even in this
(06:55):
case had that knives and scissors with me. I can't recall,
but we certainly are there to answer questions that the
sologies may ask of us.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
And can you remember much of what happened during that
post mortem?
Speaker 4 (07:09):
Not? Really, No, I can't remember much that happened. If
the patholoius doesn't ask questions, I don't interfere, and I
cannot recall what information pathologists may have asked me, or
what information I could have parted to him.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
As we've already heard from his examination of the scene,
Officer Ray would believe Margaret had been murdered. Did you
share any of your initial feelings or insights with the
investigators on the scene.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
I possibly would have. We would have had conversations about it,
and I believe the investigators at that point in time
were more than have we to rite at the conclusion
that she had been a victim of foul play. And
I certainly could find nothing to suggest in any other
(07:57):
than foul play on that day, though I conducted examinations
of the scene, because of him a tremendous amount of
blood loss.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Doctor Ian Stuart Wilkie, a senior pathologist for the Queensland
Department of Health, carried out the post mortem. I recently
spoke with doctor Wilkie, who said, given the passage of
time and the high volume of cases he worked, on
he was unable to recall the details of Margaret's case.
This is part of his statement later submitted to the
(08:28):
Coronial inquest.
Speaker 5 (08:29):
Hi Ian Stuart Wilkie of Brisbane. It's not his voice
to solemnly and sincerely declare that On eleven February nineteen
seventy eight, at the Mackay Hospital, Morgue I made a
post mortem examination of the body of a female named
Margaret Ann Kurstenfeld.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
He explained in his statement that he collected specimens of
blood for Margaret's body, samples of bile from her liver,
and he also examined the contents of her stomach.
Speaker 5 (08:56):
I found the body to be a slightly built young
adult female in a dress and bra The clothing, neck,
chest and hands were heavily bloodstained. It was a slightly
irregular lacerated or incized wound at the point of the chin.
There was a deep incized wound across the upper anterior neck.
(09:16):
This was situated immediately above the larynx and extended to
the bosterior aspect of the pharynx. The left jugular vein
was severed. There were several superficial marks parallel to the
major wound two superficial marks extended laterally from the left
angle with a major wound, and four such marks radiated
from the right angle of the wound. There was a
(09:39):
wound about one centimeter long and three millimeters deep on
the right lower anterior neck. There was a punct to
wound to the left lateral wall of vagina extending into
the pouch of douglas. The uterus was enlarged, but histological
examination showed no evidence of pregnancy.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Remember On the morning of Margaret's death, she and a
neighbor had driven to Mackay Hospital. A doctor had examined
Margaret and thought she was six weeks pregnant, but she
needed a blood test to confirm it. Marret had also
confided in friends and her brother Brian, that she believed
she was pregnant to local man.
Speaker 5 (10:17):
I concluded that the cause of death was blood loss
from an insized wound to the neck. The appearance of
this wound is consistent that having been produced by a
serrated edge carving knife. The wound under the chin is
consistent in appearance with a laceration which could have been
produced by a fall or other heavy blow to the
chin with a blunt object.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Doctor Wilkie's statement says Mararet would have died from the
neck wound within a few minutes or less. He added
that the vaginal wound was minor and could have been
self inflicted, possibly caused by the blade of broken scissors
found in the kitchen. Doctor Wilkie then concluded the appearance.
Speaker 5 (10:56):
Of the neck wound suggests that it was self inflicted.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Self inflicted. Doctor Wilkie's findings where Margaret had likely taken
her own life, so in the space of a few
short days, what had originally been considered a murder was
now deemed a suicide. His scientific officer, Neil.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Rayward, I believe that Wilkie would have told the investigating
detectives there there hasn't camped it. Possibly would have been
one other detective that he was of the view that
he couldn't just count the suicide as a cause of death.
I do remember him saying that, and perhaps a result
of that, it may have changed thoughts that I had
(11:47):
in relation to the death and his experience with blood
life and wounding. You know, I would have to accept
his thoughts on that matter. I wasn't going to argue
with it or say anything.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
To the contrary was that because you didn't feel it
was your place or you were confident in.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
No, it's not my place. The pathologists, he's the experts
with bodies. I'm the experts with time scenes, and I wouldn't.
We may have had some discussion with the detectives after
in the absence of the pathologists, we possibly would have
that we found it hard to believe that suicide could
not be ruled out. But that's just talk of putting
(12:27):
the police at the time, and I think the evidence
from the pathologists was more accepted than the fact that
it would have been a result of foul play.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Can you recall of how that impacted on the investigation
or the reaction that the investigators.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
Well, I think there was a dismay amongst the investigators.
They don't believe anyone had cast their mind to that
being a potential suicide. But I think that the detectives
and investigating police would have continued a lot on their
normal part of inquiry to get eyewitness accounts or anyone
(13:05):
in the neighborhood. I don't think they curtailed their investigations
immediately and walked away from the fact that they thought
they investigating a murder, coming.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Off doctor Wilkie's findings that the injuries were most likely
self inflicted. Did you see that as something that would
be possible for someone of Margaret's stature, that she could
physically inflict such injuries upon herself.
Speaker 4 (13:29):
I'm not dispitting the evidence of doctor Wilbee, but I
must admit that I found it hard to comprehend from
what I had seen in the blood loss and of
the wounding, that a person could walk some three meters
from the scene and be found that on the grass
outside the place. But there was no real evidence that
(13:51):
a body had been dragged out of the house either.
There's no sphearing of blood along the hallway to the
front stairs. Somebody was carried out by another person. That
would could explain the fact there's no smearing of blood.
But it was certainly different. And I had never really
(14:11):
forgotten that death or the events surrounding the death. And
it's interesting that I'm for to you later, I'm talking
to you now about the circumstances of that particular death.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
From murder to suicide in just three days. So did
investigating police continue along their early lines of inquiry into
a murder or after the post mortem, did the detectives
subsequently wind down Margaret's case, It would seem the latter.
(14:52):
Just how much weight did Dr Wilkie's findings carry with
the investigators. This is Peter Howard again.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Yeah, it was treagous crimes, yes, and with the belief
that that was what it was believed was a murder
and that she'd been sexually sold in someway. That's before
the postward of examination. Obviously, after the postboard of examination,
the shift in the investigation of change how so well,
(15:27):
the senior investigators informed us that they believed it was
a suicide.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
So what was your reaction to that after being first
on the scene and being confronted with what you saw there,
that you'd walk through the house. You were literally the
first person there, So how did that news impact on you?
Speaker 3 (15:50):
It didn't sit well with me at all and has
never sat well with me. But obviously when you're very junior,
costable and very senior investigators there, your opinion doesn't carry
very much way.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Did you pick up on any dissension amongst the investigators
at all? You mentioned before that there was some belief
within the local police and some of the investigators that
Margaret was murdered.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
Look, I think that there was always concern by the
local police, definitely, and by some of the investigators.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
So by local police you mean Serena Police station and
investigators are you referring to the detectives and Mackay cib
Rocky and homicide.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
That's correct.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
When the pathologist, doctor Wilkie comes back and says that
he believed those injuries to be most likely self inflicted,
you were told by the investigators that they believed it
to be now to be a suicide. What then happened
to the scene and to the end investigation? Did it
continue in any way?
Speaker 3 (17:03):
By that stage had been a doorknock that had occurred
up and be on the street, and that was conducted
by the CID. And during the door knock that information
was relayed in and I was probably privy to more
of that information because I was at the scene for
(17:24):
while it started.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
So when the door knock was ongoing, is that when
the information was received about the injuries and being self inflicted.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Yes, the door knock, I'd say would have been would
have been completed by then from recollection, I think the
post mortem would have been done, not the day after.
We've ended.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
But the following day, and do you know what happened
or what the police found during that door knock of
local residents.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
I know that there was a person of interest was
identified living or living in the house that was very
close living this two doors up from Margaret's house.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
That person is who we're referring to as Person X.
There are a number of persons of interest in this case,
and in time will reveal what we can about them. However,
the discovery of this Person X so close to Margaret's
home sent alarm bells ringing for one. Rock Hampton Detective
(18:29):
Peter Howard remembers his concerns.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
I know I've definitely spoken about the house, but I
don't know any more than that, because once again I
come back to have been your gospel. And when you
have homicide squad and detectives, you know you're not normally
privileged to a lot of the things that take place
in those But I know that one of the investigators
(18:53):
from Rkington was quite concerned.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Was that investigator a detective by the name of Clarie Williams.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
Yeah, that's correct.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Did Clary talk to you, director? Is it something that you.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Interested I'd spoken to Clarie sing out there on the
road and ran the Serenda police station, but obviously not
have been a great length, but enough that he conveyed
his concerns. For more to the point's suspicions.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
And Clarie did he remain one of the people who
held the opposite view that it was in fact a murder.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Well, I really can't say for certain, but the impression
I had at the time was that he didn't believe
that it was a suicide.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Clarie Williams has long since retired. When I got in
touch with him recently, he told me that he no
longer trusted his memory to be able to do an
interview for this podcast. However, I still have his comments
from an interview I did with him for a newspaper
story in two thousand and six. Back then, he told me.
Speaker 6 (20:01):
The uniform police thought she was murdered. Some of the
detectives did too. The position of the body and the
nature of the injuries didn't indicate suicide to me.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Will reveal Clarie's concerns about person X later down the track.
He said that back in the nineteen seventies, officers were
unable to argue with the pathologist's findings as they carried
a lot of weight and credibility, and as a result,
the investigation changed course. Peter Howard remembers that too. Do
(20:35):
you know if there was anything else that had happened
before Dr Wilkie's decision was given on the autopsy.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
I know they spoke to several young fellows interactions with Margaret.
There were quite a few people spoken to, and as
I say, some of the young fullest friends of dials
because Dale obviously knew this woman as well. So obviously
that with a person who there at the scene of
an incident like this, are obviously created with a lot
(21:05):
of suspicion until such time as that suspicions eliminated.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
But how long did the suspicion stay once that it
moved from being a homicide investigation to a suicide investigation.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Virtually the investigation ceased.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
As soon as that decision had come down.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
Well, I think from my recollection, we got briefed by
Bill Hassen Can was in charge of mkasy IB. I
think it was the evening that the postmortem was done,
and I think homicide squad flew home on the next day.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
The murder investigation effectively ended and police statements appear to
have been taken on the basis that Margaret Kursenfelt had
taken her own life.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Paul, I'm aghast when I see more statement as to
how brief and how little detail was in it compared
to what would have happened even for a suicide. For
the coroner, I look at mistakements and I think this
is terrible, like as an offer a charge of the station.
(22:17):
If I if I had a junior cospable permission, I'll
stop back at him.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
It would ultimately be one year and nine months before
a coroner officially made his ruling on the cause of
Margaret's death. That's almost two years where an investigation may
have come up with further evidence that pointed to a
scenario other than suicide. On November twenty, nineteen seventy nine,
(22:53):
Coroner Gyroy Joyce found.
Speaker 7 (22:55):
The disease died as a result of a knife wound
to the throat.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
When I first read Coroner Joyce's finding, I thought it
was an open finding, as there were no reasons as
to how the injury was inflicted or by whom included
in the inquest documents I obtained for this podcast. The
evidence led during the inquest certainly pointed to suicide. I
sought an answer from Queensland's current State Coroner, Terry Ryan,
(23:25):
who responded in a written statement that under the nineteen
fifty eight Coroners Act, mister Joyce's finding was not an
open finding. He said an open finding would only be
given if the coroner was unable to answer the relevant
questions of who the deceased was, when, where and how
(23:46):
the deceased came by his or her death, and persons,
if any, committed for trial. I also tracked down mister
Joyce's deposition clerk, who worked for him for eighteen years,
but he was absent for Margaret's matter and was unable
to help. Before Coroner Joyce's finding was delivered, there were
(24:08):
several part hearings of the inquest held during nineteen seventy
eight and nineteen seventy nine in Serena, Mackay and Brisbane
to accommodate the numerous witnesses required to give evidence. The
first was convened in Serena on November ninth, nineteen seventy eight,
(24:29):
and was almost immediately adjourned to the following month December five,
at the Mackay courts Before Coroner Joyce, witnesses, including Margaret's
friend Marsha Breed nee Harris, took the stand to confirm
the statements they had provided to police. Some exhibits were tended,
(24:50):
including photos of the scene. Detective Milton Hassenkam submitted his
final report. He wrote that initially it was agreed that
Margaret had been murdered, and investigations proceeded with that thought
in mind. He added that the first two uniform police unseen,
(25:11):
Constables Robertson and Howard, thought that that was the case,
as did the detectives when they viewed Margaret's body at
her house. However, Hassenkham noted that it will.
Speaker 7 (25:23):
Be appreciated that investigators were not in possession of any
information regarding the background all movements of the deceased. When
commencing their investigations, Doctor Wilke pointed out that in addition
to the large, insized wounds across the throat, there were
several superficial marks parallel to the major wound. Two of
these marks extended laterally from the major wound on the left,
(25:45):
and four marks radiated from the right side of the wound.
There was another superficial wound on the right lower neck.
Doctor Wilke pointed out that the marks were such as
to indicate that they may have been self inflicted, and
in almost all cases of suicide in this manner, that
such wounds were evident.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Detective Hassenkam went on to explain that at first a
wound under the point of Margaret's chin was not discussed
until he asked doctor Wilkie again the following day to
examine it. When Hassenkam examined the crime scene and saw
the chin wound while Margaret's body was at her house,
he suspected the injury was the result of a fall
(26:24):
or being hit.
Speaker 7 (26:25):
He agreed that it was not consistent with a knife wound,
but consistent with a fall or a heavy blow to
the chin by a blunt object.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
The detective wrote that doctor Wilkie had also indicated that
while Margaret's uterus was enlarged, he did not think she
was pregnant. This was later confirmed by a histological examination or,
in other words, an examination of her tissue under the microscope.
Hassenkam's report claims that doctor Wilkie believed it would have
(26:57):
taken a few minutes or less for Margaret to die
from the time the wound was inflicted. With the evidence
before him, the seasoned detective came to the following conclusions.
Speaker 7 (27:11):
If I were to accept the fact that the deceased
died of her own hand, then certain factors remain unexplained,
namely the absence of blood between the kitchen and the
main bedroom and the presence of the blood on the
two rear doors. Upon reflection, then these two factors can
be explained in one of two ways. A. The deceased
may have decided to commit suicide in her bedroom and
(27:34):
took a knife and a tea tail into the bedroom
for that purpose. Finding that the knife's blade was not
sharp enough or was too pliable, she held the towel
to her throat, returned to the kitchen and obtained another knife.
Returned to the bedroom and successfully made the wound in
her throat. B. The deceased attempted to cut her throat
(27:55):
at the kitchen sink, stemmed the flow of the blood
with the tea towel, taken another knife, and come completed
the work in the bedroom. This then left traces of
blood on the rear doors to be explained and I
point out here that the deceased believed she was pregnant.
Having that belief in mind before she attempted to commit suicide,
she took the pair of scissors from the sink and
(28:15):
went to her bedroom, removed her pants, and attempted to
abort herself with the scissors. The wound bled, and she,
with her blood stained hands, then closed the rear doors
before she decided to suicide.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Detective Hassenham then goes on to explain that the wound
under Margaret's chin could have occurred any time after she
inflicted the wound to her throat and has fallen down
on some object and cut her chin.
Speaker 7 (28:42):
There would be little evidence of this because by that
time most of the blood in her body would be gone.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Currenter Joyce then adjourned the case to Brisbane, the capital
city of Queensland, to hear evidence from the expert witnesses
who resided there. That part hearing was held before a
different Man, Magistrate William Mackay on January ninth, nineteen seventy nine.
Among those to give evidence scientific police officer Near Rayward,
(29:11):
forensic scientist Michael Noonan, and pathologist doctor Ian Wilkie, who
was first to take the stand. The magistrate asked the
pathologist whether his inquiries revealed any suspicious circumstances in connection
to Margaret's death. Doctor Wilkie's response.
Speaker 8 (29:31):
No.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
A list of the samples collected by doctor Wilkie from
Margaret's body and Detective Rayward from the crime scene were
tended with the results of scientific testing. Among them were
Margaret's underwear, nighti dress, a tea towel, a double bladed knife,
a pair of scissors, bedding and a knife. Also tended
(29:57):
were several swabs of blood taken from a Margaret's home,
including the bedroom inside and outside, the kitchen door, outside
of the front door, and blood that had fallen onto
the grass. These were tested by the government scientist Michael Noonan.
Two blood groups were identified. Margaret's blood group was identified
(30:20):
as Type A. The other was a blood grouping called MN,
which is a subgrouping of a blood type. In this case,
most appeared to belong to Margaret. Blood grouping was used
in crime scene examination prior to the introduction of DNA.
The details of the test results of the exhibit seized
(30:40):
at Margaret's house for examination are not all consistent. This
could mean there may not have been enough blood to
extract for analysis, or no one else's blood was found
in the crime scene. The clothing, underwear and linen of
two people, including Person X, a man known to Rockhampton detectives,
(31:02):
were also tested. The man known to police was found
to have no blood on his underwear, pajama pants, shorts, shirt,
or towel. As for the other person, whose surname is
only mentioned in a list of scientific exhibits in all
the documents obtained during research for this podcast, while two
(31:25):
spots of blood were found on their t shirt and genes,
but apparently neither were the same as Margaret's. Interestingly, this
person's name is not included in Detective Hassenkam's final report
or any of the police statements we have obtained. Then,
(31:45):
Senior Scientific Police Officer Detective Neil Raywood was called to
the stand. This is a re enactment of the proceedings
according to the transcripts.
Speaker 9 (31:56):
Would you please tell the court your full and correct
name and rank please. My name is Neil Douglas Raywood.
I'm a Senior Scientific Officer of Police, an officer in
charge of the Scientific Section Commissioner's Office. Prisidan on the
eleventh of February nineteen seventy eight. Did you give him
a KI and make investigations concerning the death of Margaret
(32:17):
Ann Kirstenfeld.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Yes.
Speaker 9 (32:19):
As a result of that investigation, did you complete a statement?
Speaker 3 (32:23):
I did?
Speaker 9 (32:24):
Is this the statement completed by you?
Speaker 3 (32:26):
Yes?
Speaker 9 (32:27):
I'll tend to that statement as an exhibit your worship.
That statement is admitted and March exhibit nine. Did your
inquiries reveal any suspicious circumstances in connection with the death?
Speaker 3 (32:39):
No?
Speaker 9 (32:40):
Do you wish to make any additional statement?
Speaker 3 (32:43):
No.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
At the coronial inquiry into Margaret's death, Officer Row would
testify that his inquiries did not reveal any suspicious circumstances
in connection with the death. When I spoke with him recently,
this is what he remembers.
Speaker 4 (32:59):
I the realize that there was a detectives for rough
hamp And there who were fairly adamant that it couldn't
be suicide because they had a particular person of interests
who lived in the area who they believe may have
been responsible. So they were a little bit dismayed by it,
more so than the police from the Mccaia detectives. But
that's just a little side issue which perhaps isn't all
(33:21):
that important. It's just how police are suspicious nature that
they always must have to investigate the senses of this nature.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Do you recall there being in the person's of interest
interviewed and all checked for blood or their blood taken
to be compared to blood found at the scene.
Speaker 4 (33:39):
No, some other persons must have taken, who sound with
the blood from suspects in the area to the clentic
biology I eyge certainly he was not aware of any
further investigations. I just merely prepared a statement for the coroner,
and that was the last I'd heard of the events.
But I did understand that the investigat feed it out
(34:01):
and it was accepted as one of suicides from just
listening into the police got At.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
That point, Margaret's marriage had broken up, and I think
it was pretty quickly learnt from neighbors and friends of
Margaret that she believed that she had fallen pregnant to
a man she'd been seeing that obviously wasn't her husband, Malcolm.
That she'd been seeing several men over the previous few
weeks prior to her death. Is there any way, given
(34:27):
that we're talking about nineteen seventy eight in a completely
different era. What have Margaret's lifestyle or choices at all
colored the investigation and or Dr Wilkie while they were
forming opinions about what had happened to her.
Speaker 4 (34:42):
Yeah, I can't really comment on that. I don't think
even doctor Wilkie, he wouldn't have cast his mind who
information touches that he wouldn't have listened to, perhaps possible
suspects in the area. No, gentleman, and he would just
do a job professionally and not take anything like that
(35:05):
in the consideration.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
He just stick to the science of medicine and pathology.
Speaker 4 (35:09):
That's obviously the police would be more interested than those
issues than friensic scientists or friendic pathologists.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
So, to summarize what former forensic officer Neil Raywood remembers,
his investigations in nineteen seventy eight led him to believe
that Margaret's death was the result of foul play. He
was prepared to accept the word of the pathologist Ian
Wilkie that it was a suicide. It was not his
(35:41):
place to question. The final part hearing of Margaret Kirstenfeld's
inquest was held in Serena on March twelfth, nineteen seventy nine,
before a magistrate. Bill Smith. Among those to give evidence
Margaret's neighbor Heather Hanson, the young motorcycle who found her body,
Dale Payne, and police officer Peter Howard. In a newspaper
(36:08):
interview with me in two thousand and seven, the then
retired detective Hassenkam refused to be drawn on the case
as he did not want to jeopardize any potential future investigation.
Speaker 7 (36:20):
He told me, initially it was treated as a murder,
the medical evidence and evidence obtained at the time suggested
otherwise suggested suicide and that's where the matter ended as
far as I was concerned.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
However, he also said as an investigator he had always
kept an open mind. In nineteen seventy eight, Keith Smith
was a member of Queensland's homicide Squad. Hello hi, Keith,
it's Paulodonom and how you going. The squad had been
(36:57):
established just seven years prior to Detective Keith Smith had
been involved for about four He and fellow detective Bob
Cassidy joined colleagues from Rockhampton and Mackay to investigate Margaret's death.
Speaker 8 (37:11):
What I would like to make clear at the outset
is that my account is from recollections of the events
that occurred forty years ago, aided by some recent research
I carried out. On the tenth of February nineteen seventy eight,
it was that the body of Margaret and Kursedon Felt,
aged twenty one at the time, was on the footpath
(37:32):
a short distance from where she lived in Beach Road, Savena.
She suffered severe injuries to her throat and there's a
trail of blood leeding from her body in her bed.
Serena police and detectives from Mackay c IB carried out
the initial investigations and regarded the death as suspicious a
short specialist support and assistance from Brisbane. I'll get to
(37:55):
my role shortly, but initially the senior state forensic Pathologist,
doctor Ian Rookie traveled to Makai to performed the autopsy.
Doctor Rookie was recognized as one of the top pensicapologists
in the state. I also believe that a special senior
a forensic Officer, Neil Raywood from Brisbane scene. At that time,
(38:18):
I was a detective sergeant in the homicide squad in Brisbane.
My work partner was Detective Senior Constable Bob Cassidy. We
were sent to Serena to assist the local detectives.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
Was that normal practice back then that the regional or
local detective bureaus would ask homicide for help if it was.
Speaker 8 (38:38):
A crime it looked like a possible homicide and it
looked like it may not be easily resolved or quickly resolved,
and it could turn into a protractive investigation. The local
detectives could their local workload, of course, would call on
assistants from Brisbane and Homicide Squad were a state wide
squad and was quite often those situations where we would
(39:01):
go and take up.
Speaker 10 (39:02):
The local detectives and help them.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Unlike other police officers we've spoken to you, Keith Smith
has always believed Margaret committed suicide.
Speaker 8 (39:12):
Well, of course, by the time we got there, the
body being removed from recollection. I think the first time
I saw the body was at either at or following
the post mortem. The crime seen itself in the bedroom
and trail of blood leading from the bedroom out to
where the body was found certainly was profuse and it
was sort of I can understand why local detectives immediately
had some concerns about what exactly had occurred, but I
(39:36):
recall viewing the body after the post mortem in the
presence of Dr Wilkie. The neck and throat area had
been cleaned, and Doctor wilk explained to me that reason
behind his opinion that the wounds were self inflicted. He
indicated a number of minor lacerations on the throat in
close vicinity to the major laceration which had caused the
(39:56):
extensive bleeding and the subsequent death. Doctor Wilkie told us
that from his experience and studies of suicides of this nature,
it was almost always minor laserations obviously inflicted prior to
the final and fatal cup. It was like a tentative
practice or tested practice cuts. There was some evidence that
(40:18):
Kirsten Felt had believed that she was pregnant at the
time of her death and had attempted to self aboard
using a pair of scissors. First autumn had disclosed that,
in fact, she.
Speaker 3 (40:27):
Was not pregnant.
Speaker 8 (40:28):
The difference of opinion between investigating detectives was never really settled.
A subsequent coronial inquest held in McKay Senior Magistrate Gilroy
Duddley Joyce as Willy Joyce acting in his capacity as coroner.
Mister Joyce was a highly experienced magistrate. He'd been senior
Clerk of the Court and deputy magistrate in Rock Camp
(40:50):
and prior to being appointed as magistrate a long reach
period and then appointed manistraate Akai. I'm sure that the
final piece investigation.
Speaker 10 (41:00):
Report and I finished to report on half homicide squad
and all of other elevents would have been examined by
the current and possibly even I'm sure but possibly even by.
Speaker 8 (41:12):
The Director of Public Prosecutions. In my humble opinion, the
strong medical evidence of doctor Wilke and the lack of
any conflicting medical evidence, along with the lack of direct
evidence indplicating a second person, would have made it highly
unlikely that any person could have been committed to stand
trial over this depth lit alone guilty of either murder
(41:35):
or manslaughter. And in finality, I'll say this, in cases
such as this, all the available evidence is firstly examined
by the legal authorities. Mental proceedings in the magistrates' court
in Supreme court trials are lengthy and expensive. If the
available evidence is determined by those authorities, to be insufficient
(41:58):
and unlikely to result in the middle on subsequent conviction
of any person in the matter does not proceed. This
my recollections, is what occurred on this occasion, and I
have always accepted and agreed to that conclusion.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
Can I just ask a couple of questions and if
you can answer them, great, If not, that's that's okay.
With the weight of someone's expertise in standing, such as
Dr Wilkie when he comes back with the finding, or
you know, within a couple of days of Margaret's body
being found that it appeared that the injuries were self inflicted.
That then would have shaped the direction of the police investigation.
(42:39):
Would it not?
Speaker 3 (42:40):
Well? As far as I was concerned that it did.
Speaker 8 (42:44):
But I repeat, the local detectives.
Speaker 3 (42:47):
Did not accept that.
Speaker 8 (42:48):
They didn't accept that from again from recollection. They pursued
their line and inquiry as a possible murder. I've spoken
to those I need them, I need them well. I
knew those detectives well. I'd worked in your campus LB
and Mackay, and I knew them well. And I mean,
while we disagreed, I always admired them for their tenacity.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
The former detective is currently writing his memoirs. He agreed
to a second interview with me as he wanted to
further discuss the murder theory, the pattern of knife wounds,
signs of a struggle, and how Margaret's body made it
to the footpath.
Speaker 8 (43:26):
There's always been conjecture about the death of Margaret, and
Kursten felt even among investigating detectives that remains the case
even after forty years. Some believed that this was a.
Speaker 3 (43:37):
Murder, not a suicide.
Speaker 8 (43:39):
For the murder theory to be sustainable, the following facts
would have to be considered. So were no signs of
a struggle of resistance from Kurstone. If it was murder,
the perpetrator would have to have overpowered and secured her
somehow while he inflicted co lacerations to her throat. This
would have included what was described by the doctor Wilkie
(44:01):
has the number of tentative cups before the fatal cup
was infected. Okay, well, then how did the body get
from the bedroom to the footpath. There certainly was a
trail of blood, no drag marks indicating that the woman
was somehow upright, so she collapsed and died. It's hardly
likely that the murder would have carried bleeding body from
(44:22):
the bedroom to the footpath without leaving some evidence of
such movement. To me, the murder theory cannot be sustained.
I've always believed that this was a suicide as described
by doctor Wilkie. That's it.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
Is it possible that Margaret didn't struggle or didn't fight
back out of complete fear shock or possibly the killer
said to her if you scream, if you fight, if
you do anything, I will kill your baby. She had
her daughter sleeping meat his away in a cot. Is
that possible that, out of self preservation and protecting her child,
(45:01):
that she could have cooperated or not struggled.
Speaker 8 (45:05):
Well, I think it's possible, but it's unlikely.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
Okay. There is mention within the reports from the investigation
as well as from Neil Raywood that there were marks
along the wall indicating that that she was staggering and
had had steadied herself. So is it possible, given that
there was blood on the rear door and ar laundry door,
(45:30):
that the killer could have gone out the back and
Margaret has stumbled to the front for help.
Speaker 8 (45:36):
Well, that was suggested the murder was not very effective
because he left her alive.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Perhaps he was interrupted, but Bye thought he heard someone.
I mean there were there were there were cars going
past Dale Payne's motorbike. How was a child The baby
was seven months old. I see, Look, they're just things
that come to my mind. I guess when you know,
it's like when someone says when they're looking at it.
(46:01):
You know, when we're eight victims have seen cross examined
in court. Well, did you say no? Well, I couldn't
get the words out. Did you fight back? No, I froze.
Speaker 8 (46:12):
I was in shop that situation that occurred. She would
have just had to submit to whatever he wanted to
do to her and the slider passively and allow him
to do whatever he wanted to do. Now, if he
wanted to murder her, I would have thought, stand in
hard and chest a few times, cutting her throat and
(46:33):
leaving the indictive signs of several labservations. I mean, whe
it just doesn't well, it doesn't ring true to me.
That's all I can say it.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
I also had several other questions. Supposing Margaret had been
planning suicide, why would she go to the effort of
changing from shorts and a shirt into a mini dress.
Speaker 8 (47:00):
Why brother.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
Why put a knife with her hair on it into
the kitchen sink. Why wrap a tee towel around the
knife in the bedroom? Why stagger out to the neighbor's
yard where someone would find her, you speculated.
Speaker 8 (47:15):
I mean we could come up with a lot of ideas.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Yeah, But for me, again, it just throws up a
lot of questions.
Speaker 8 (47:20):
In these situations, you've you've got to really base your opinions,
and whatever you decide, you base them on the facts. Yes,
I mean there's a lot of conjecture can be a
confusing thing. I mean think that all these things it
could have happened, or might have happened, or could have
been But when you look at the facts and on
the evidence available, be courtact on evidence. They don't act
(47:41):
on conjecture, not what people might like to think happened
or what they think might have happened. I know we
will never settle the argument, but the facts are that
there's no medical evidence to conflict with doctor Milkin. He
was a pathologist. And it's okay for these people to
come forward now, these specialsts come out of would work
now and say, oh I know this wasn't it was
(48:03):
a murder, But what do they base say events, They
didn't see the body, they didn't do the past moretem
some of these cold cases, I think some people sort
of come out of the woodwork without any evidence.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
For me, again, it seemed that the investigation stopped reasonably short.
I don't know how farrough or how much it continued,
or how intense it was after Wilkie's findings.
Speaker 8 (48:27):
Yeah, well, see it's a long time. It's something that
had dropped right out of my mind. You know, even
when I was writing my memoirs. You said to me,
I didn't mention to write about this one and your memois.
I said, I didn't know, because to me it was
something that was conclusive and I wasn't a homicide. It
wasn't a homicide.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
Keith Smith said, Well, other detectives may never change their
minds believing Margaret was murdered. Neither would he change his
opinion that she took her own life. Next time, on Pendulum,
(49:07):
a father forever haunted by having to clean up after
his daughter's death.
Speaker 9 (49:12):
He would talk about involving it in.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
A husband struggles to understand why some nice nearly like
that crime? How could Margaret have taken her own life?
When she had so much to live for. If you
(49:57):
have information about the Margaret Kirsten fell CA, please let
us know. Email us at Pendulum Podcasts at gmail dot
com or go to sevenews dot com dot AU. Forward
Slash Pendulum presenter and executive producer Paula Donovan, Writer and
(50:25):
producer Sally Eels, Sound design Mark Wright, Graphics Jason Blandford,
Transcripts Susan Bush. Our theme music is the Clock Is
Ticking by Dark Orb Music. See our show notes for
(50:47):
full music credits. With thanks to seven News Brisbane
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