September 1, 2019 • 28 mins
Margaret's baby - all grown up. Lesley speaks publicly for the first time since her mother's death. Loved ones reflect on what could have been. Plus, we get a second opinion. Another experienced pathologist examines the notes from Margaret's autopsy.
Credits:
Presenter / Investigative Crime Journalist - Paula Doneman
Producer / Writer - Sally Eeles
Sound Design - Marc Wright
TV reporter - Mackenzie Ravn
Graphics - Jason Blandford
With thanks to:
The team at 7 News Brisbane, Annette Caltabiano, Georgia Done, Letitia Wallace, Susan Bush, Alex Wright Media, Mackay City Council Library.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
In nineteen seventy eight, a young mom dies violently in
a small Queensland town. Suicide or murder? What happened to
Margaret Kirstenfeld? Someone knows? This is Pendulum episode seven.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
I'm Paula Donoman. It's been more than forty years since
pathologist doctor Ian Wilkie examined Margaret's case and made the
call her injuries were self inflicted. We were interested to
find out whether a new set of eyes, who had
(01:20):
different experiences and access to different technologies, would come up
with the same or a different conclusion, So we contacted
doctor Nigel Buxton, a forensic pathologist based in Rockhampton who
has a specialty in knife injuries. He's often called upon
(01:41):
to provide his professional opinion to the Queensland Police Service,
and he lectures at police and hospital conferences on matters
related to the Currenties Act. He graduated from medicine in
London in nineteen seventy four, later specializing in pathology. He
even helped in some of the Yorkshire Ripper cases. I
(02:03):
sent as much information as I could about Margaret's injuries
within a week or so, Doctor Buxton replied by email.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Hi, Paula, thank you for asking me to review the
file on the inquest material into the death of Miss
Margaret kirstenfelt an interesting case which would have been difficult
at the time. The review is hampered by the absence
of autopsy photographs and scene photographs, but I understand the
limitations imposed.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
He then got straight to the point.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
The vaginal wound is, in my opinion, self inflicted. There
was no other recorded injury to the thighs, perineum, volver,
or elsewhere in the vagina. If it is proposed that
a second person was responsible, the lady must have been
very cooperative or unconscious. A second person would not have
(02:57):
been so gentle or tentative. Instrumental rape is usually violent.
The presence of the rolled down panties also suggests voluntary removal.
The forced removal would likely have torn the panties or
turned them inside out. In the old days, the injury
would have raised the probability of attempted self induced abortion,
(03:20):
often with a wire coat hanger or similar I note
the lady thought she was six weeks pregnant.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Next, doctor Buckston wrote about the injuries to Margaret's neck.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
The pattern of injury to the neck with multiple tentative
in sized wounds and terminating in one deep wound is
in my view a strong indicator of self infliction. The
sparing of the right jugular vein that cutting of the
left jugular vein indicates a left to right handed incision
(03:54):
by a right handed person. The favorite hand of the
deceased is not given. Whilst cutthroat as a way of
self destruction is more typically a male activity, ladies will
use that method. If the second person was involved, I
would expect to have seen defensive wounds. There were none.
If the throat had been cut by an assailant standing
(04:17):
behind the lady, the cut would have been even more
usually and unlikely to have spared the right jugular vein.
There is no comment about carottied cartioid arteries in the report.
The angle of the cut would better have been assessed
from photographs, as the angle and contour of the wound
may have helped assessment.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Finally, Dr Buxton gave his assessment.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Overall, I believe this is a suicidal death based on
the information provided.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
So forty years on, a second highly experienced pathologist has
come up with the same result as doctor Wilkin. Margaret's
injuries were self inflicted. It is worth remembering that doctor
Buckson was obviously not able to perform his own autopsy
on Margaret's body or access the photos of her body
(05:17):
and the crime scene. He was entirely relying on the
notes of doctor Wilkie, the crime scene description of scientific
Officer Neil Raywood, and the report of Milton Hassenkam. Margaret's
family rejected the idea she'd taken her own life, although
it's mentioned in Detective Hassenkam's report that her father, David,
(05:41):
acknowledged that his daughter was one to conceal her feelings
and may have been depressed. The concept of suicide made
Margaret's sister grasp for answers. So we're on our way
(06:03):
to Margaret's gravesite with her sister deb.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
I've been trying to come to terms with how this
could possibly happen. I started to do some research and
go to that suicide awareness training session, trying to piece
together how anyone could possibly have done this level of.
Speaker 5 (06:25):
Suicide in that manner, and it was really hard to
go through and sort of think, well, what's the statistics
on somebody cutting their own throat? And unfortunately for me,
I did find that it was possible, so well, okay, it's
usually men and it's only a very small percentage in
(06:45):
the world that do it successfully. And then I thought, well,
she has a stronger aggressive type of personality. Well maybe
she did.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Margaret was laid to rest in jin Dowey, not far
from her mother's home.
Speaker 6 (07:00):
There's gateways are so closed off.
Speaker 7 (07:02):
Gets another gateway up here on her line.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Her grave is in the local cemetery, near those of
her father David and brother Greg, who died as an infant.
Speaker 8 (07:10):
How often does the family come out to visit the grave?
Speaker 9 (07:15):
Not that often.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
Mom comes out a couple of times a year.
Speaker 9 (07:18):
There's a gateway there.
Speaker 7 (07:19):
We can to come here when there's another funeral or
a get together, and you might come out, because less
I come out much of Colin.
Speaker 4 (07:29):
I think Colin in his younger days used to come
out and spend time here. I hear I've heard him.
Speaker 8 (07:36):
Talk about coming and sitting with her Lesa.
Speaker 5 (07:39):
I don't know if she still comes out or not.
Speaker 10 (07:41):
I think as teenager as they came out, just trying
to get the in print of well this is my mum.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
He's on this side. I guess when I see a
graveyard this size, it's reminds you that you are a
real It is a very small town. Is as long
as column is it?
Speaker 11 (08:17):
I was all right.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Margaret's grave is marked by a small neat headstone with
the plant that.
Speaker 12 (08:27):
Reads in memory of Margaret and Kirstenfeldt nineteen fifty seven
to nineteen seventy eight, beloved wife of Malcolm, mother of
Colin and Leslie.
Speaker 8 (08:43):
Very pasiful.
Speaker 7 (08:46):
There's something special about the country.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Do you imagine what your life would have been like
with Margaret in it.
Speaker 8 (08:58):
I'd like to see sister.
Speaker 6 (09:01):
I would love to have gotten to know her as
an adult where we weren't sibling fighting, because only a
chance to do that, and yeah.
Speaker 13 (09:10):
Every I do this on April Eve, having a sister
that we can have a chuckle about the kids and
what we did as kids, and then silliness that we were.
Speaker 7 (09:21):
Because we were just kids.
Speaker 6 (09:23):
We were just sisters and just different personalities.
Speaker 7 (09:29):
Would have been asked to have seen her mature.
Speaker 6 (09:31):
Isn't it.
Speaker 13 (09:34):
If our kids an auntie, an older auntie would have been.
Speaker 7 (09:37):
Interesting And I hope we would have been ob to
share our kids a bit there as well, because you know, I.
Speaker 6 (09:44):
Look at her children and it's not been easy for
the other sisters. Yeah, they were a lot younger, so
I'm never having to tell duly what had happened.
Speaker 9 (09:54):
Yea, excuse me?
Speaker 14 (09:55):
Eight?
Speaker 2 (09:57):
He explained death to an eight year old?
Speaker 11 (10:00):
I don't know.
Speaker 13 (10:00):
I remember telling her that wasn't really easy.
Speaker 6 (10:02):
Remember remember coming up to.
Speaker 13 (10:05):
Me as was darting a couple of days in and
she just came up and she sat beside me, and
there's something bad happened.
Speaker 6 (10:11):
Enough, what am I going to do here?
Speaker 7 (10:15):
And yeah, I can't fully remember the conversation, but it
was one of the hardest ones I've had. It was
not a very long one. It was just trying to
be totally honest and saying, yes, it has. Did somebody
hurt her? And I said, actually yes?
Speaker 15 (10:29):
And what he did?
Speaker 6 (10:30):
I remember saying that to him. I said, well, I.
Speaker 13 (10:32):
Don't know why. It's something that we'll have to find
our way through. She seemed to be okay at that time.
Who knows what she was thinking in her own act.
Your own mind at that point was.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
One After the initial shock of Margaret's death, life went
on for her family. Intact with her friends dwindled. While
she was never far from their thoughts years past, then decades.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
To TV in stereo, today's NonStop hits of the nineties.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Those who couldn't believe Margaret would take her own life
learned to live with it all through that time. Malcolm
rarely spoke of his grief. When you heard the news
of Margaret's death, was did you wonder what had happened
to Leslie?
Speaker 15 (11:33):
Well? Yeah, all those sort of things got your mind,
you know, as I do it. You know it is
we got your mind? Was she dead? To know what
really went on? Their trive? Try to know? It still
goes from my mind what went on in the house
and that night now I still think about it. Yeah,
(11:57):
And as I said, it's it's something that probably I'll
never get out of my mind.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
But the saying you were confronted with or.
Speaker 15 (12:07):
Yeah, but does you know everything?
Speaker 11 (12:10):
You know?
Speaker 15 (12:10):
You know, I I'll be thinking to myself and some
nice nearly wake up gowness who would have been aborted
if I had stayed there? Or whatever? You know, im
But you can't say them back to clock, can you?
You can't do nothing about it? Now?
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Do you still experience those thoughts? Malcolm?
Speaker 15 (12:26):
Quite often? I've got a very close friend I work with,
and they're very good listener, and I talk quite often
about it.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
It's a long time, forty years to have those thoughts
going through your mind.
Speaker 15 (12:45):
Oh it is, it's you know, it's probably something, but
never get, never forget. Then not long after that, I
lost my data as well. You know, it's some was
sort of from really compounded.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Of course, Margaret's babies grew up, Little Colin and Leslie
went off to school, became teenagers, then adults. Leslie is
now in her forties and Colin is a bit older.
Speaker 15 (13:14):
Yeah, my daughter doesn't come talk to me a lot
because I think she sort of blames me a fair
bit for what's happened. I don't blame her, I know,
love it a bit. So there's another day goes past
that I that I won't Yeah, but I don't love her.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Are you talking about Leslie or Margaret or both Leslie?
Speaker 15 (13:38):
Yeah, no, I love Margaret as all. Now there's a
noo hatred day whatsoever. You know. I was scriptfully prepared
to go back up and to really try and get
things going and work out and sort of say, well,
come on, we'll pack up and go back to Gendalo.
So that you can be near your family and yeah,
and you can have support around you and whatever it was.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Both of Margaret's children now have children of their own. Well,
Colin has had his demons over the years, Leslie seems
at peace. You were seven months old when your mother
mother died. Wouldn't have any memories of your mother, so
to speak. But could you talk to me about your
life growing up.
Speaker 8 (14:22):
Any different?
Speaker 9 (14:23):
I don't know any different, So I don't think I
have any different of an upgrad upbringing. I had a
mother name was my mom, So it's sort of I
don't think it impacted me very much. I don't see
it as being any different to anyone else. I mean,
Mum was always spoken about it. It was a comfortable conversation
that that was always welcome in the house. But well
(14:46):
in this house it was always welcome, sir.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
This podcast is the first time Leslie's spoken publicly about
her mother's dead. What were those conversations about him?
Speaker 9 (14:56):
Oh, just about what mum was like and different these
little things, you know, something might come up and be
just you, that's what mum was like, or that just
how if she laughed or your mother would have laughed
at something like this, just little conversations.
Speaker 6 (15:10):
And things like that.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Were you able to get a sense of who your
mum was.
Speaker 9 (15:15):
In a little bit, you know, like not not huge
stories or things like that, because I suppose they'd probably
you know, back when I was younger, I was probably
still a little bit of pain and you know, understanding
coming into it as well. As you get older, you
sort of look back and look at things a lot
differently and things like that. But probably as a teenager
(15:36):
during those times, there was it wasn't lots of stories,
but just little bits, and that made it that she
was not forgotten.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Do you miss her?
Speaker 9 (15:46):
She can't really miss what you didn't know in a
way like I can't say I missed out because you know,
Nan was such a lovely, loving.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
Parent that you know, I never missed anything.
Speaker 9 (15:56):
You know, Like I look look at people's families and
stuff and now and you see so much heartache that
you think, well, you know, I didn't miss out on anything. Look.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
While Margaret was never a taboo topic in the Walled Household,
the horror of her death wasn't something that was often
brought up. But in the early nineteen nineties, when her
father David became sick, the family at last had a
discussion about Margaret. It lasted hours. When did you first
(16:26):
land about your mother's death?
Speaker 8 (16:29):
Why is not?
Speaker 9 (16:30):
I think you know that the only time I can
really see it being something that we sat down and
spoke about. I can remember when Pop was sick and
we all we had a family meeting where everyone was
told altogether. But I think I'd known before that, but
that was sort of I couldn't remember, you know, somewhere
between that twelve to fifteen year old age. It was
(16:54):
a discussion that it was Poper Nan and Debbie and
I think it was Colin, Susan Durd and I.
Speaker 7 (16:59):
I think we.
Speaker 9 (17:00):
Just spent four or five hours just and it was
just general conversation and reminiscing. But I think I've always
known about Mum and I don't stress about it anything,
So I've always had had a way to live with
what's happened.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Did any of the family ever see coming to you
about any traits that they saw in you that were
your mother?
Speaker 8 (17:23):
Probably?
Speaker 9 (17:24):
Yeah, I think Dad said that a couple of times.
That might be the only time he's ever mentioned Mum
to me. But yeah, those you're too much like your
blooding mother. Comments that doesn't worry me.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
If that's how he is, since your dad didn't talk
much about about your mother.
Speaker 9 (17:41):
Whether it's still grieving, I don't know, it still still doesn't,
but dad is that's how he is. I mean, I've
always thought that maybe Dad, you know, he may still
be stuck in that grieving process where they could have been.
But I mean, he's never spoken about it, so I
don't know. But I mean, you whom there could be
still going through that grieving process where he's never been
(18:04):
able to come to the point where you can live
with your grief.
Speaker 7 (18:09):
Maybe I'm not sure.
Speaker 9 (18:11):
So I think this week when I rung him too
telling you were coming out, was the first time I've
had they had a conversation where Mum was actually mentioned
in the conversation.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
And do you get to see Colin much?
Speaker 8 (18:22):
Not really.
Speaker 9 (18:24):
Colin and I are sort of fairly different people, but
I try and touch base. I tend to be a
little bit blunt and say things how they are, so yeah,
that doesn't go down sometimes.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Do you think Colin has character in a much different way?
Do you think that he was affected, was a little
bit older.
Speaker 9 (18:42):
Colin's always dealt with things a whole different ballgame to me.
He carries a huge, huge weight on his shoulder. I
don't know ever that what has caused that weight. I
can't say it's mum. But yeah, he does deal with
things a whole different way to tie things, and I
seem to affect him a lot different to me, whereas
(19:03):
I'm much more the person. Okay, that's what's happened, let's
deal with it. But yeah, he does deal with things
a lot different. He's more like Dad. I don't think
he's ever found a place that's comfortable for him with Mum.
I Bobby annoyed him over the years being able so
comfortably to speak about mum. So, but you know, we're
(19:23):
not overly close, but we can have a conversation and
spend time together at times.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
What about your pop?
Speaker 15 (19:32):
Is that what you call David?
Speaker 11 (19:33):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Yeah, always was.
Speaker 9 (19:35):
He used to say to me, we can't always talk
to someone to their face. So we used to sit
out in the front yard that victory and he'd sit
on one side and I'd sit on the other side, and
you just talk. And he said, you know, you're not talking,
but somebody's listening. If there's something that needs direction, but
you're getting it out.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Did he talk much about your mum?
Speaker 9 (19:53):
Do you?
Speaker 11 (19:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (19:54):
I think he did.
Speaker 9 (19:56):
Yeah, he was especially once you became sick. I think
we had a lot of conversations.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
So growing up, you sound like you had a good childhood.
Speaker 9 (20:06):
And if you didn't, I did a very extended family
and very different family, but didn't it was your family.
It was the family's strange sort of family. But we'll
get all.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Debbie has been listening to Leslie speak and is proud.
She remembers when she was a girl who used to
retreat emotionally, and.
Speaker 6 (20:35):
She has matured and come into a very well balanced
young woman now. I have to say I was extremely
worried about her as a teenage, but now she's grown
and she's probably much more balanced than I ever expected her.
It was nice to hear her agree to come and
(20:56):
talk because her wife, Covid wants to build a box
around it, thought so that they it was all black
and then she dipped it nothing and then she could
come at to see her.
Speaker 15 (21:04):
Today is so much better, So she's a bit at
the end. Hello.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Another person who's been opening up about her memories of
Margaret is her old friend Judy Edwards.
Speaker 11 (21:20):
I'm good, Thank you.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Judy was the daughter of the Gendowie Baker. She worked
front of shop and connected with Margaret, who often helped out.
Speaker 11 (21:29):
We just sort of fell in together, like we've known
each other's rover.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Is she someone that like to have a lot of fun?
Speaker 11 (21:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've played up a little bit too.
We did some crazy things.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Judy's name pops up in Margaret's nineteen seventy five diary
quite a bit.
Speaker 14 (21:45):
Tuesday, January twenty eighth, Judy came round about eight pm
and stayed for a while. She also brought my Christmas
present around and I gave Sunday, February two, Judy and
I went swimming and I stayed till three point thirty pm.
Speaker 11 (22:03):
We'd go out to the country dancers like at Warra
and Miles Chinchill and surrounding areas, you know, and we
go like out bush and we go out to the
dams what wre on properties that they gave you permission
and we camp out there to night and we'd go fishing.
(22:23):
And we didn't have fishing rods, so we just choose
a sugar cane. We'd tie a bit of fishing line
to it and we'd go fishing in the dams, but
would also tie bottles of beer twig stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Why would you be trying a bottle of beer? Was
it to get the fish drunk or no?
Speaker 11 (22:42):
No, to keep our beers cold in the dam? Yes,
Margaret and I actually made a few clothes, and one
particular time we made ourselves a long red plaid skirt,
you know, like had of Scotch material exactly the same,
and we both went to the dance in that All
(23:08):
Margaret wanted was to get married, be happy, to have kids.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Only recently have Judy and Margaret's family been in touch again.
They had lost contact over the years. While the pair
had been extremely close as girls. They'd both left Jen
Dowie around the same time, married and had children. While
Margaret went to Mackay and Serena, Judy's life took her
(23:45):
to Sydney, but they always kept in touch, sending letters.
None of those letters exist anymore, but Judy remembers her
friend being unhappy when she lived in Serena. She paints
a picture of Margaret's life there that's very different from
what others recall.
Speaker 11 (24:08):
I knew she moved to Serena because she moved up there,
and she was telling me how unhappy she was and
stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Can you elaborate a bit on that, please, Judy.
Speaker 15 (24:16):
Well, she said she.
Speaker 11 (24:17):
Just wasn't happy and she wished she could go home
and stuff like that, and he wasn't very nice to her,
from what Margaret tell me. And I do remember her
mum saying that when her mom and dad went up
there after she died, that the house was in vis termol.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
You know it was.
Speaker 11 (24:35):
It wasn't like Margaret Evsin was sort of on tardy
and stuff like that, and I think she was actually
suffering from depression.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
When I tell Judy about the injuries that caused Margaret's death,
she breaks down.
Speaker 16 (24:51):
Well, sorry, it had to bear with him.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Jennie's love for her friend Margaret lives on.
Speaker 11 (25:09):
Margaret was one of my closest friends.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Now.
Speaker 11 (25:13):
I don't know if anybody's told you, but when my
daughter was born, I named her Joan Margaret, So that
can tell you how close we were. The only thing
I have left of Margaret's is when she passed away,
(25:37):
Buntie sent me a watch and a bracelet of Margaret.
But we were robbed about fifteen years ago and the
bracelet was stolen, but I still have the watch.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Margaret's death forever changed the lives of her family, loved
ones and friends. Her mother Bunty, says, nothing was ever
the same.
Speaker 8 (26:11):
Did you shoulder a lot of it? Bunty?
Speaker 15 (26:14):
Yeah, yeah, have anything to do, but to teach you
to keep going.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
And keep going is what she did. It's what they
all did for almost thirty years. And then senior police
decided to reopen the case. Next time on Pendulum police
(26:53):
revisit their files.
Speaker 12 (26:55):
I didn't accept Margaret's death was suicide.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
There were too many inconsistencies to the.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Place where it all happened. They seriously, it's crazy.
Speaker 8 (27:07):
Serena h.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
If you have information about the Margaret Kirstenfeld case, please
let us know. Email us at Pendulum podcast at gmail
dot com, or go to seven US dot com dot
a U Forward Slash Pendulum presenter and executive producer Paula Donovan,
(27:57):
writer and producer Sally Eels, Sound design Mark Wright, Graphics,
Jason Blandford, transcripts Susan Bush. Our theme music is the
Clock is Ticking by Dark. All music See our show
(28:20):
notes for full music credits. With thanks to seven Years Brisbane,
In nineteen seventy eight, a young mom dies violently in
a small Queensland town. Suicide or murder? What happened to
Margaret Kirstenfeld? Someone knows? This is Pendulum episode seven.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
I'm Paula Donoman. It's been more than forty years since
pathologist doctor Ian Wilkie examined Margaret's case and made the
call her injuries were self inflicted. We were interested to
find out whether a new set of eyes, who had
(01:20):
different experiences and access to different technologies, would come up
with the same or a different conclusion, So we contacted
doctor Nigel Buxton, a forensic pathologist based in Rockhampton who
has a specialty in knife injuries. He's often called upon
(01:41):
to provide his professional opinion to the Queensland Police Service,
and he lectures at police and hospital conferences on matters
related to the Currenties Act. He graduated from medicine in
London in nineteen seventy four, later specializing in pathology. He
even helped in some of the Yorkshire Ripper cases. I
(02:03):
sent as much information as I could about Margaret's injuries
within a week or so, Doctor Buxton replied by email.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Hi, Paula, thank you for asking me to review the
file on the inquest material into the death of Miss
Margaret kirstenfelt an interesting case which would have been difficult
at the time. The review is hampered by the absence
of autopsy photographs and scene photographs, but I understand the
limitations imposed.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
He then got straight to the point.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
The vaginal wound is, in my opinion, self inflicted. There
was no other recorded injury to the thighs, perineum, volver,
or elsewhere in the vagina. If it is proposed that
a second person was responsible, the lady must have been
very cooperative or unconscious. A second person would not have
(02:57):
been so gentle or tentative. Instrumental rape is usually violent.
The presence of the rolled down panties also suggests voluntary removal.
The forced removal would likely have torn the panties or
turned them inside out. In the old days, the injury
would have raised the probability of attempted self induced abortion,
(03:20):
often with a wire coat hanger or similar I note
the lady thought she was six weeks pregnant.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Next, doctor Buckston wrote about the injuries to Margaret's neck.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
The pattern of injury to the neck with multiple tentative
in sized wounds and terminating in one deep wound is
in my view a strong indicator of self infliction. The
sparing of the right jugular vein that cutting of the
left jugular vein indicates a left to right handed incision
(03:54):
by a right handed person. The favorite hand of the
deceased is not given. Whilst cutthroat as a way of
self destruction is more typically a male activity, ladies will
use that method. If the second person was involved, I
would expect to have seen defensive wounds. There were none.
If the throat had been cut by an assailant standing
(04:17):
behind the lady, the cut would have been even more
usually and unlikely to have spared the right jugular vein.
There is no comment about carottied cartioid arteries in the report.
The angle of the cut would better have been assessed
from photographs, as the angle and contour of the wound
may have helped assessment.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Finally, Dr Buxton gave his assessment.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Overall, I believe this is a suicidal death based on
the information provided.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
So forty years on, a second highly experienced pathologist has
come up with the same result as doctor Wilkin. Margaret's
injuries were self inflicted. It is worth remembering that doctor
Buckson was obviously not able to perform his own autopsy
on Margaret's body or access the photos of her body
(05:17):
and the crime scene. He was entirely relying on the
notes of doctor Wilkie, the crime scene description of scientific
Officer Neil Raywood, and the report of Milton Hassenkam. Margaret's
family rejected the idea she'd taken her own life, although
it's mentioned in Detective Hassenkam's report that her father, David,
(05:41):
acknowledged that his daughter was one to conceal her feelings
and may have been depressed. The concept of suicide made
Margaret's sister grasp for answers. So we're on our way
(06:03):
to Margaret's gravesite with her sister deb.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
I've been trying to come to terms with how this
could possibly happen. I started to do some research and
go to that suicide awareness training session, trying to piece
together how anyone could possibly have done this level of.
Speaker 5 (06:25):
Suicide in that manner, and it was really hard to
go through and sort of think, well, what's the statistics
on somebody cutting their own throat? And unfortunately for me,
I did find that it was possible, so well, okay, it's
usually men and it's only a very small percentage in
(06:45):
the world that do it successfully. And then I thought, well,
she has a stronger aggressive type of personality. Well maybe
she did.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Margaret was laid to rest in jin Dowey, not far
from her mother's home.
Speaker 6 (07:00):
There's gateways are so closed off.
Speaker 7 (07:02):
Gets another gateway up here on her line.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Her grave is in the local cemetery, near those of
her father David and brother Greg, who died as an infant.
Speaker 8 (07:10):
How often does the family come out to visit the grave?
Speaker 9 (07:15):
Not that often.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
Mom comes out a couple of times a year.
Speaker 9 (07:18):
There's a gateway there.
Speaker 7 (07:19):
We can to come here when there's another funeral or
a get together, and you might come out, because less
I come out much of Colin.
Speaker 4 (07:29):
I think Colin in his younger days used to come
out and spend time here. I hear I've heard him.
Speaker 8 (07:36):
Talk about coming and sitting with her Lesa.
Speaker 5 (07:39):
I don't know if she still comes out or not.
Speaker 10 (07:41):
I think as teenager as they came out, just trying
to get the in print of well this is my mum.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
He's on this side. I guess when I see a
graveyard this size, it's reminds you that you are a
real It is a very small town. Is as long
as column is it?
Speaker 11 (08:17):
I was all right.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Margaret's grave is marked by a small neat headstone with
the plant that.
Speaker 12 (08:27):
Reads in memory of Margaret and Kirstenfeldt nineteen fifty seven
to nineteen seventy eight, beloved wife of Malcolm, mother of
Colin and Leslie.
Speaker 8 (08:43):
Very pasiful.
Speaker 7 (08:46):
There's something special about the country.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Do you imagine what your life would have been like
with Margaret in it.
Speaker 8 (08:58):
I'd like to see sister.
Speaker 6 (09:01):
I would love to have gotten to know her as
an adult where we weren't sibling fighting, because only a
chance to do that, and yeah.
Speaker 13 (09:10):
Every I do this on April Eve, having a sister
that we can have a chuckle about the kids and
what we did as kids, and then silliness that we were.
Speaker 7 (09:21):
Because we were just kids.
Speaker 6 (09:23):
We were just sisters and just different personalities.
Speaker 7 (09:29):
Would have been asked to have seen her mature.
Speaker 6 (09:31):
Isn't it.
Speaker 13 (09:34):
If our kids an auntie, an older auntie would have been.
Speaker 7 (09:37):
Interesting And I hope we would have been ob to
share our kids a bit there as well, because you know, I.
Speaker 6 (09:44):
Look at her children and it's not been easy for
the other sisters. Yeah, they were a lot younger, so
I'm never having to tell duly what had happened.
Speaker 9 (09:54):
Yea, excuse me?
Speaker 14 (09:55):
Eight?
Speaker 2 (09:57):
He explained death to an eight year old?
Speaker 11 (10:00):
I don't know.
Speaker 13 (10:00):
I remember telling her that wasn't really easy.
Speaker 6 (10:02):
Remember remember coming up to.
Speaker 13 (10:05):
Me as was darting a couple of days in and
she just came up and she sat beside me, and
there's something bad happened.
Speaker 6 (10:11):
Enough, what am I going to do here?
Speaker 7 (10:15):
And yeah, I can't fully remember the conversation, but it
was one of the hardest ones I've had. It was
not a very long one. It was just trying to
be totally honest and saying, yes, it has. Did somebody
hurt her? And I said, actually yes?
Speaker 15 (10:29):
And what he did?
Speaker 6 (10:30):
I remember saying that to him. I said, well, I.
Speaker 13 (10:32):
Don't know why. It's something that we'll have to find
our way through. She seemed to be okay at that time.
Who knows what she was thinking in her own act.
Your own mind at that point was.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
One After the initial shock of Margaret's death, life went
on for her family. Intact with her friends dwindled. While
she was never far from their thoughts years past, then decades.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
To TV in stereo, today's NonStop hits of the nineties.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Those who couldn't believe Margaret would take her own life
learned to live with it all through that time. Malcolm
rarely spoke of his grief. When you heard the news
of Margaret's death, was did you wonder what had happened
to Leslie?
Speaker 15 (11:33):
Well? Yeah, all those sort of things got your mind,
you know, as I do it. You know it is
we got your mind? Was she dead? To know what
really went on? Their trive? Try to know? It still
goes from my mind what went on in the house
and that night now I still think about it. Yeah,
(11:57):
And as I said, it's it's something that probably I'll
never get out of my mind.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
But the saying you were confronted with or.
Speaker 15 (12:07):
Yeah, but does you know everything?
Speaker 11 (12:10):
You know?
Speaker 15 (12:10):
You know, I I'll be thinking to myself and some
nice nearly wake up gowness who would have been aborted
if I had stayed there? Or whatever? You know, im
But you can't say them back to clock, can you?
You can't do nothing about it? Now?
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Do you still experience those thoughts? Malcolm?
Speaker 15 (12:26):
Quite often? I've got a very close friend I work with,
and they're very good listener, and I talk quite often
about it.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
It's a long time, forty years to have those thoughts
going through your mind.
Speaker 15 (12:45):
Oh it is, it's you know, it's probably something, but
never get, never forget. Then not long after that, I
lost my data as well. You know, it's some was
sort of from really compounded.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Of course, Margaret's babies grew up, Little Colin and Leslie
went off to school, became teenagers, then adults. Leslie is
now in her forties and Colin is a bit older.
Speaker 15 (13:14):
Yeah, my daughter doesn't come talk to me a lot
because I think she sort of blames me a fair
bit for what's happened. I don't blame her, I know,
love it a bit. So there's another day goes past
that I that I won't Yeah, but I don't love her.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Are you talking about Leslie or Margaret or both Leslie?
Speaker 15 (13:38):
Yeah, no, I love Margaret as all. Now there's a
noo hatred day whatsoever. You know. I was scriptfully prepared
to go back up and to really try and get
things going and work out and sort of say, well,
come on, we'll pack up and go back to Gendalo.
So that you can be near your family and yeah,
and you can have support around you and whatever it was.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Both of Margaret's children now have children of their own. Well,
Colin has had his demons over the years, Leslie seems
at peace. You were seven months old when your mother
mother died. Wouldn't have any memories of your mother, so
to speak. But could you talk to me about your
life growing up.
Speaker 8 (14:22):
Any different?
Speaker 9 (14:23):
I don't know any different, So I don't think I
have any different of an upgrad upbringing. I had a
mother name was my mom, So it's sort of I
don't think it impacted me very much. I don't see
it as being any different to anyone else. I mean,
Mum was always spoken about it. It was a comfortable conversation
that that was always welcome in the house. But well
(14:46):
in this house it was always welcome, sir.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
This podcast is the first time Leslie's spoken publicly about
her mother's dead. What were those conversations about him?
Speaker 9 (14:56):
Oh, just about what mum was like and different these
little things, you know, something might come up and be
just you, that's what mum was like, or that just
how if she laughed or your mother would have laughed
at something like this, just little conversations.
Speaker 6 (15:10):
And things like that.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Were you able to get a sense of who your
mum was.
Speaker 9 (15:15):
In a little bit, you know, like not not huge
stories or things like that, because I suppose they'd probably
you know, back when I was younger, I was probably
still a little bit of pain and you know, understanding
coming into it as well. As you get older, you
sort of look back and look at things a lot
differently and things like that. But probably as a teenager
(15:36):
during those times, there was it wasn't lots of stories,
but just little bits, and that made it that she
was not forgotten.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Do you miss her?
Speaker 9 (15:46):
She can't really miss what you didn't know in a
way like I can't say I missed out because you know,
Nan was such a lovely, loving.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
Parent that you know, I never missed anything.
Speaker 9 (15:56):
You know, Like I look look at people's families and
stuff and now and you see so much heartache that
you think, well, you know, I didn't miss out on anything. Look.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
While Margaret was never a taboo topic in the Walled Household,
the horror of her death wasn't something that was often
brought up. But in the early nineteen nineties, when her
father David became sick, the family at last had a
discussion about Margaret. It lasted hours. When did you first
(16:26):
land about your mother's death?
Speaker 8 (16:29):
Why is not?
Speaker 9 (16:30):
I think you know that the only time I can
really see it being something that we sat down and
spoke about. I can remember when Pop was sick and
we all we had a family meeting where everyone was
told altogether. But I think I'd known before that, but
that was sort of I couldn't remember, you know, somewhere
between that twelve to fifteen year old age. It was
(16:54):
a discussion that it was Poper Nan and Debbie and
I think it was Colin, Susan Durd and I.
Speaker 7 (16:59):
I think we.
Speaker 9 (17:00):
Just spent four or five hours just and it was
just general conversation and reminiscing. But I think I've always
known about Mum and I don't stress about it anything,
So I've always had had a way to live with
what's happened.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Did any of the family ever see coming to you
about any traits that they saw in you that were
your mother?
Speaker 8 (17:23):
Probably?
Speaker 9 (17:24):
Yeah, I think Dad said that a couple of times.
That might be the only time he's ever mentioned Mum
to me. But yeah, those you're too much like your
blooding mother. Comments that doesn't worry me.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
If that's how he is, since your dad didn't talk
much about about your mother.
Speaker 9 (17:41):
Whether it's still grieving, I don't know, it still still doesn't,
but dad is that's how he is. I mean, I've
always thought that maybe Dad, you know, he may still
be stuck in that grieving process where they could have been.
But I mean, he's never spoken about it, so I
don't know. But I mean, you whom there could be
still going through that grieving process where he's never been
(18:04):
able to come to the point where you can live
with your grief.
Speaker 7 (18:09):
Maybe I'm not sure.
Speaker 9 (18:11):
So I think this week when I rung him too
telling you were coming out, was the first time I've
had they had a conversation where Mum was actually mentioned
in the conversation.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
And do you get to see Colin much?
Speaker 8 (18:22):
Not really.
Speaker 9 (18:24):
Colin and I are sort of fairly different people, but
I try and touch base. I tend to be a
little bit blunt and say things how they are, so yeah,
that doesn't go down sometimes.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Do you think Colin has character in a much different way?
Do you think that he was affected, was a little
bit older.
Speaker 9 (18:42):
Colin's always dealt with things a whole different ballgame to me.
He carries a huge, huge weight on his shoulder. I
don't know ever that what has caused that weight. I
can't say it's mum. But yeah, he does deal with
things a whole different way to tie things, and I
seem to affect him a lot different to me, whereas
(19:03):
I'm much more the person. Okay, that's what's happened, let's
deal with it. But yeah, he does deal with things
a lot different. He's more like Dad. I don't think
he's ever found a place that's comfortable for him with Mum.
I Bobby annoyed him over the years being able so
comfortably to speak about mum. So, but you know, we're
(19:23):
not overly close, but we can have a conversation and
spend time together at times.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
What about your pop?
Speaker 15 (19:32):
Is that what you call David?
Speaker 11 (19:33):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Yeah, always was.
Speaker 9 (19:35):
He used to say to me, we can't always talk
to someone to their face. So we used to sit
out in the front yard that victory and he'd sit
on one side and I'd sit on the other side, and
you just talk. And he said, you know, you're not talking,
but somebody's listening. If there's something that needs direction, but
you're getting it out.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Did he talk much about your mum?
Speaker 9 (19:53):
Do you?
Speaker 11 (19:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (19:54):
I think he did.
Speaker 9 (19:56):
Yeah, he was especially once you became sick. I think
we had a lot of conversations.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
So growing up, you sound like you had a good childhood.
Speaker 9 (20:06):
And if you didn't, I did a very extended family
and very different family, but didn't it was your family.
It was the family's strange sort of family. But we'll
get all.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Debbie has been listening to Leslie speak and is proud.
She remembers when she was a girl who used to
retreat emotionally, and.
Speaker 6 (20:35):
She has matured and come into a very well balanced
young woman now. I have to say I was extremely
worried about her as a teenage, but now she's grown
and she's probably much more balanced than I ever expected her.
It was nice to hear her agree to come and
(20:56):
talk because her wife, Covid wants to build a box
around it, thought so that they it was all black
and then she dipped it nothing and then she could
come at to see her.
Speaker 15 (21:04):
Today is so much better, So she's a bit at
the end. Hello.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Another person who's been opening up about her memories of
Margaret is her old friend Judy Edwards.
Speaker 11 (21:20):
I'm good, Thank you.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Judy was the daughter of the Gendowie Baker. She worked
front of shop and connected with Margaret, who often helped out.
Speaker 11 (21:29):
We just sort of fell in together, like we've known
each other's rover.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Is she someone that like to have a lot of fun?
Speaker 11 (21:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've played up a little bit too.
We did some crazy things.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Judy's name pops up in Margaret's nineteen seventy five diary
quite a bit.
Speaker 14 (21:45):
Tuesday, January twenty eighth, Judy came round about eight pm
and stayed for a while. She also brought my Christmas
present around and I gave Sunday, February two, Judy and
I went swimming and I stayed till three point thirty pm.
Speaker 11 (22:03):
We'd go out to the country dancers like at Warra
and Miles Chinchill and surrounding areas, you know, and we
go like out bush and we go out to the
dams what wre on properties that they gave you permission
and we camp out there to night and we'd go fishing.
(22:23):
And we didn't have fishing rods, so we just choose
a sugar cane. We'd tie a bit of fishing line
to it and we'd go fishing in the dams, but
would also tie bottles of beer twig stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Why would you be trying a bottle of beer? Was
it to get the fish drunk or no?
Speaker 11 (22:42):
No, to keep our beers cold in the dam? Yes,
Margaret and I actually made a few clothes, and one
particular time we made ourselves a long red plaid skirt,
you know, like had of Scotch material exactly the same,
and we both went to the dance in that All
(23:08):
Margaret wanted was to get married, be happy, to have kids.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Only recently have Judy and Margaret's family been in touch again.
They had lost contact over the years. While the pair
had been extremely close as girls. They'd both left Jen
Dowie around the same time, married and had children. While
Margaret went to Mackay and Serena, Judy's life took her
(23:45):
to Sydney, but they always kept in touch, sending letters.
None of those letters exist anymore, but Judy remembers her
friend being unhappy when she lived in Serena. She paints
a picture of Margaret's life there that's very different from
what others recall.
Speaker 11 (24:08):
I knew she moved to Serena because she moved up there,
and she was telling me how unhappy she was and
stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Can you elaborate a bit on that, please, Judy.
Speaker 15 (24:16):
Well, she said she.
Speaker 11 (24:17):
Just wasn't happy and she wished she could go home
and stuff like that, and he wasn't very nice to her,
from what Margaret tell me. And I do remember her
mum saying that when her mom and dad went up
there after she died, that the house was in vis termol.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
You know it was.
Speaker 11 (24:35):
It wasn't like Margaret Evsin was sort of on tardy
and stuff like that, and I think she was actually
suffering from depression.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
When I tell Judy about the injuries that caused Margaret's death,
she breaks down.
Speaker 16 (24:51):
Well, sorry, it had to bear with him.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Jennie's love for her friend Margaret lives on.
Speaker 11 (25:09):
Margaret was one of my closest friends.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Now.
Speaker 11 (25:13):
I don't know if anybody's told you, but when my
daughter was born, I named her Joan Margaret, So that
can tell you how close we were. The only thing
I have left of Margaret's is when she passed away,
(25:37):
Buntie sent me a watch and a bracelet of Margaret.
But we were robbed about fifteen years ago and the
bracelet was stolen, but I still have the watch.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Margaret's death forever changed the lives of her family, loved
ones and friends. Her mother Bunty, says, nothing was ever
the same.
Speaker 8 (26:11):
Did you shoulder a lot of it? Bunty?
Speaker 15 (26:14):
Yeah, yeah, have anything to do, but to teach you
to keep going.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
And keep going is what she did. It's what they
all did for almost thirty years. And then senior police
decided to reopen the case. Next time on Pendulum police
(26:53):
revisit their files.
Speaker 12 (26:55):
I didn't accept Margaret's death was suicide.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
There were too many inconsistencies to the.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Place where it all happened. They seriously, it's crazy.
Speaker 8 (27:07):
Serena h.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
If you have information about the Margaret Kirstenfeld case, please
let us know. Email us at Pendulum podcast at gmail
dot com, or go to seven US dot com dot
a U Forward Slash Pendulum presenter and executive producer Paula Donovan,
(27:57):
writer and producer Sally Eels, Sound design Mark Wright, Graphics,
Jason Blandford, transcripts Susan Bush. Our theme music is the
Clock is Ticking by Dark. All music See our show
(28:20):
notes for full music credits. With thanks to seven Years Brisbane,
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