August 21, 2024 • 20 mins
Pats talks to ACTU President Michele O’Neil about the proposal for 10 days’ Reproduction Leave for both women and men and how it could benefit Aussie workplaces.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
I'm Patrina Jones with episode six of Rage Against the Menopause.
This isn't just about women, you know. I think it's
such a travesty that as women, we work decades in
our chosen fields to break through the glass ceiling, juggling families,
and when we've reached dizzy in heights, some are forced
to retire early because of the symptoms of perimenopause and menopause.
(00:23):
A quarter of working women are retiring before the age
of fifty five, despite typically reporting they wanted to ride
off into the sunset at sixty four, taking a serious
hit on savings estimated in the billions. Because of a
lack of workplace support to address the symptoms, women are
being let down and workplaces robbed of expert talent and
(00:44):
this has to change. The recent Senate inquiry has heard
from the Australian Council of Trade Unions which is proposing
ten days reproductive leave, but not just for women, also
for men undergoing things like prostate checks and supporting a
partner through IYA. I spoke to President Michelle O'Neill. Well,
there's been a lot of talk which is great in
(01:07):
the news of late about menopause leave or leave to
allow women with conditions like endometriosis and polycystic ovarian syndrome
to access extra leave, which I certainly would be a
fan of suffering both those conditions. And I'm really lucky
to have in the studio on the line with me
today Michelle O'Neil from the ACTU.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Hey, Michelle, that's how are you?
Speaker 1 (01:31):
I am great? I am great, and I am so
glad that we are talking about this today because it
means that it's getting out there and you know, into
the public and encouraging all this debate and all this talk.
What is it that you want to introduce? Tell us
about it.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Well, it's actually not menopause leave. It's reproductors leave. And
that's because menopause is something that affects, as we know,
half the population. But there's also a whole lot of
other issues to do with our reproductive health that affects
women as well as men. So whether that's menstruation and
(02:09):
conditions that sometimes go along with that, things like endometriosis
as you mentioned, or whether it's couples that are looking
for treatment to do with fertility issues, maybe going through IVF,
or whether it's a man having an eseectomy or a
woman dealing with the effects of miscarriage. These are all
(02:30):
issues to do with our reproductive health that we think
it's a very good idea to be able to introduce
additional paid leaves that recognizes that we're people and that
these issues around reproductive health just impact on our lives
in amazing ways, but they also really impact on our work,
(02:51):
and we've discovered that it's having a huge impact. And
if you think about menopause, for example, what we know
is that women are retiring significantly earlier than men, and
it seems though that menopause is a really key driver
of that.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
I will share with you an experience I had years ago.
My husband and I suffered with infertility and pregnancy loss
for a period of about five years. A previous employer
of mine where I was, I was going in for
an egg retrieval and stupidly probably admitted that, you know,
(03:29):
I'd need about three or four days off to have
that egg retrieval, and was probably too open and said
to my employer at the time, listen, I'm actually not
going to be in you know, for this period of time.
This is what's happening, just so you can fill your roster.
When I got back from yet another failed implantation and miscarriage,
(03:51):
you know, dust yourself off and come back into work
put on a happy face. I was dragged into the
office and said this leave you've just had, Oh, yes,
that's to be taken as annual leave. And I said,
what do you mean? And I was told it's your
choice to do IVF. That's what I was told. And
(04:12):
I said, well, actually, no, that's kind of bias on
the grounds of a medical condition. So this is what
some women are facing.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
I'm so sorry that you had to live through that.
That's a really traumatic experience. Must have been very very
hard on you and your partner as well. So unfortunately,
what you just told me is just not uncommon. And
that's one of the reasons why we really want to
(04:44):
change this conversation and talking about the need for additional
paid leave doesn't just give new rights for workers, it
actually changes what's been a really taboo set of topics
in our workplace. You women don't talk about having their periods.
It's really hard to talk about menopause, let alone issues
(05:08):
to do with fertility and going through IVF and all
of the practical and time and trauma related elements that
go through with all of those things. Miscarriages of courses
can be so hard on people who've lost a baby,
but again there's just this silence around it. And one
(05:29):
of the really important things about winning new rights is
that it also opens up new conversations and education and understanding.
And an example of that perhaps is that last two
years ago we won ten days paid family and domestic
violence leave, and that's a really important right and is
literally a life saving right for many women. But it
(05:52):
also means that there's a different conversation happening now in
workplaces about violence an impact. This is another example of that.
It's a really important thing that'll be good for workers,
but it'll also be good for businesses and the organizations
we work for, because if we understand what's impacting on
us as people, we're not machines, then you get better
(06:16):
results from people. You get people staying in the workplace longer.
You don't have people leaving without knowing why. And I
think it would really benefit the whole society.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
But also women that have worked decades to master their
craft and are really valuable to a company, to a
business leaving like they're retiring on average seven years before
men twelve years before their desired age of retirement. Can
I just go back to business because I was on
the project recently talking about the podcast and talking about
(06:51):
the impact on the workplace, and I've been inundated with
messages and i want to share some of them with you,
some not all positive negative.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Maxwell says.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
While I don't deny for a second, people need support.
We can't keep pushing responsibility onto employers when businesses are
struggling and closing left, right and center. What about those
people with cancer that get up and go to work
every day. How would you respond to that sort of sentiment.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Well, I think what we would all hope is that
we have workplaces and employers that do the right thing
without minimum rights and entitlements. But what we know is
that there's many workplaces where that's not the case, and
you gave us a really clear example of one. We
(07:44):
also know that women get discriminated against because of some
of these issues. So it is about saying that a
new right is nothing to be frightened of for employers,
because it will mean that you more likely to retain skilled,
committed staff. It'll mean you will be less likely to
(08:06):
have women retiring early because they haven't been able to
get the sort of flexibility and support they need to
stay at work. You'll attract people and more women into
the workforce if we recognize the impact that these things have.
And also, as I said, the reason we're talking about
reproductive lead is that this isn't just about women. It's
(08:29):
also about men and the impact the reproductive health issues
have on them too, So it is something that will
also be good for men in the workplace. It'll be
good for everybody in the workplace. And this is not
something that we're just starting to talk about. And fact
unions have been our campaigning and winning agreements with clauses
(08:50):
for paid reproductive lead over the last few years. And
we've just seen the Queensland government announce ten days paid
reproductive leave for all public sector workers up in Queensland,
which is a massive change for workers in that state
and it's leading the way. But just back on your
point two, Pats that when we ask women in that
(09:13):
forty five to fifty four year old age group when
they typically want to retire, they say they want to
retire at sixty four, But they're a quarter of Australian
working women are actually retiring at the age of fifty five,
so that is twelve years before they said they wanted
(09:33):
to retire, and on averages she said seven years before
men So something's going on there that's not good. It's
not good for business. So instead of looking at it
as well, this would be an extra cost, it actually
can be something that will make businesses more effective and
more profitable, to keep good people and recognize who we are,
(09:53):
all of who we are, instead of only parts of
who we are.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Shari said something really funny. She's written, wish it was
around years ago. I think my sewing lecturer at TAFE
needed leave. She was moody and probably menopausal.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Well, look, you know that's the other thing. Sometimes there's
some myths about it. I mean, we all know there
is mood related issues to do with hormones. Somebody asked
me about menopause the other day. I'm not saying a
thing about that. But it is also though not just
about leave, it's about making arrangements that make work realize
(10:33):
that you can do things to make things better. So
we all know, for example, about temperature fluctuations. Now, if
that was something that was able to be properly talked
about in the workplace. If you could make adjustments around that,
people are going to be able to work better and
say it work longer. If we're able to pick up
on things like that, you may need it short notice
(10:54):
leave for things like IVF treatment for both a woman
and man to be able to respond to this cycle
like this is not always something that you can plan.
So if that's understood that it's not like, well, I'm
going to tell you in two weeks I need this time,
but in fact, relatively short notice to be able to
have some time to have fertility treatment is really important
(11:16):
part of this too. So it's busting the myths about
it as well, and not just thinking, oh, it's about
women being shitty.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
That is a really valid point about the myths that exists.
Because Carolyn's written more reason to discriminate against women? No thanks.
Is it a case of them just not knowing enough
about what it is that you're trying to put forward?
Why and from a woman as well that point of view.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
No, Look, that it's a really valid point and a
valid thing to be worried about. But what we know though,
is that discrimination is already happening. So having access to
leave having access and a right to flexible work arrangements
and having this talked about more at work will actually
help end discrimination. It's not like that there's not discrimination
(12:04):
going on now. There currently is discrimination going on and
we know that effects. You know, women are working for
not as many years as men, but also women earn
significantly less than men. Women retire with significantly less money
than men. The Australian Institute of Superannuation Trustees estimates that
(12:25):
menopause can cost women in that fifty to fifty four
age group more than fifteen billion dollars per year in
lost earnings and super for every year of early retirement.
So that's a massive impact on Australian women financial impact.
So it's already having that discriminatory effect. So I understand
(12:45):
the concern. You don't want to be stuck in a
box and people say, oh, you know this is all
because of you know, your menstruating or your menopause all,
but you do want to make sure that we aren't
affected negative of lead, because of something that's a normal
part of our life.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Yeah, and I think flexibility in the workplace it's going
to be for everyone.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Correct, Yeah, of course it does. And when we already
have rights to flexible work arrangements for key things. We're
proposing that reproductive health gets added to that. So if
you're pregnant, or you've got a disability, or you're an
older worker, or you're experiencing family domestic violence, you do
have some rights now to be able to request flexible work,
(13:27):
and those rights got strengthened in the last year or two.
We think having reproductive health in there is an important
change that needs to happen. And I don't think we
should underestimate how many workers, women and men are affected
by this every day now and so pretending that's not
(13:48):
happening or putting our head in the stand about it.
You know, one of the big problems we've got, Pats,
is that we don't research this properly. So we're also
looking for there to be a better understand better research
done about what sort of impact is it having on productivity?
What sort of impact is a lack of understanding having
on people's ability to do the very best by their
(14:13):
family and buy their work.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
So getting to the basics, Michelle, what is it that
you're calling for. So we're talking ten days extra per
calendar year.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Yeah, but non cumulative issues related to menstruation, miscarriage, vasectomies, hysterectomies.
The list goes on, and some of these, of course
are really important. If you have time to be able
to get proper screening for things like breast and cross
that cancer, then of course you're less likely to then
(14:43):
end up unwell and unable to work. So there's preventative
health issues that are good for everyone in this too.
And so you would need to provide a proof that
is to a reasonable level that this is what you
are requiring to believe for. You can take it either
in half days or days or multiple days, depending on
(15:06):
your needs and where it's been introduced. And as I said,
we've been unions have been winning this in agreements around
the country for a few years now. What we're hearing
back is that it's actually really helped improve people staying
in their workplace, being able to keep working longer than
they would otherwise to, and being able to make sure
(15:29):
they can balance their life and their work.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
And so these ten days are in addition to their
normal sick day allowance.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Yeah yeah, so personally is ten days at the moment
for workers. But if you remember that that's not just
for you if you're sick, it's also sleeper that you
care for, So this would be additional leave, but of
course it doesn't get used unless it's necessary and there's
a reasonable element of proof that goes along with it.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
So where to from here, Michelle, So you've put the
request forward. Will this go before the Senate inquiry or
what happens with you?
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Yes? So there's been a Senate inquiry that's been just
looking at menopause and perimenopause at the moment, and we've
appeared before that inquiry. We've put forward a range of proposals,
including the flexible work arrangements and the additional leave, and
that issues about doing better research about what's really going on,
(16:23):
and as well as that, we recently had what's called
the ACTU Congress. It's when all the unions from all
over the country get together and plan what we're going
to be doing in the coming three years. And a
key outcome of that congress was support for trying to
win ten days paid reproductive leave through our bargaining in
enterprise agreements, but also as a national employment standard for
(16:46):
all workers. So unions are working now around the country
with their members and talking to employers about why this
is a good idea, and we'll also be campaigning to
have the government introduce it readily.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
I just think it's a really good opportunity to seize
the moment and make positive change and more than anything,
as the mum of a teenage daughter, make and leave
a legacy for future generations, Like it really is as
major as that it's a natural health condition and it
should happen.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
It's such a natural thing, and it's still it's sort
of shocking that it's so taboo, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
This is why I'm enjoying the podcast, you know, Entering Perimenopause.
It's just it's like we're in the eighteen hundreds and
I just want to bust that and just get the
conversation rolling because it's just it's so overdue.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Well good on you, because that's right. And the more
that there's this culture of silence, the more that we
all suffer from that. It's not just the women who
are dealing with effects of menopause. It's of course our
whole workplaces suffer, our family suffer, and the community suffers
and business suffers from it. Like if we talk about it,
most we understand it, moth. We'd normalize this, then it's
(17:58):
going to be better for everyone. And you know the
other thing I reckon because even in twenty twenty four,
a whole lot of our work rights and work arrangements
are based on the idea that a normal worker is man,
and we've got to change that. And that's one of
the reasons we still see the gender pay gap, one
of the reasons we still see rampant sexual harassments and
(18:21):
things in the workplace. We just have to make sure
that our attitudes and our responses to workers catch up
with the fact that women are workers. And you wouldn't
think you needed to say that in twenty twenty four,
but we do. We do.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
That's a sad thing we do. Thank you so much, Michelle.
I'm really excited by you know what we're going to see,
hopefully happen in the next twelve months. How soon would
we get this leave enshrined?
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Well, like always, you know, to win new rights for workers,
we've got to fight for them and campaign for them.
But I'm really heartened by the number of agreements that
are now starting to be done where employers and unions
are agreeing without a fight about why this is the
good idea and as I said that, the Queensland government
has recently led the way with introducing it for all
(19:12):
public sector workers up there, so I'm hopeful that we'll
win this soon. But I encourage everyone to be part
of it. And I want to thank you Pats for
doing this great podcast. It's such an important part of
changing attitudes what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Oh thanks, Michelle, it's been a delight to have you on.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Thanks for that.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
The Victorian Women's Trust says more than eighty percent of
women experiencing menopause say their work was negatively affected. Seventy
percent report not being comfortable talking to their boss about
ways to support them. It's a divisive issue reproductive leave,
whether business can or can't afford it, but can we
afford to lose the expertise these women in their chosen fields.
(19:49):
Metopause in the Workplace continues our theme in episode seven,
I'm in my power now when I welcome Grace Molloy
from Menopause Friendly Australia. I'm Patrina Ja and this is
a rage against the menopause.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Mhmm.
I'm Patrina Jones with episode six of Rage Against the Menopause.
This isn't just about women, you know. I think it's
such a travesty that as women, we work decades in
our chosen fields to break through the glass ceiling, juggling families,
and when we've reached dizzy in heights, some are forced
to retire early because of the symptoms of perimenopause and menopause.
(00:23):
A quarter of working women are retiring before the age
of fifty five, despite typically reporting they wanted to ride
off into the sunset at sixty four, taking a serious
hit on savings estimated in the billions. Because of a
lack of workplace support to address the symptoms, women are
being let down and workplaces robbed of expert talent and
(00:44):
this has to change. The recent Senate inquiry has heard
from the Australian Council of Trade Unions which is proposing
ten days reproductive leave, but not just for women, also
for men undergoing things like prostate checks and supporting a
partner through IYA. I spoke to President Michelle O'Neill. Well,
there's been a lot of talk which is great in
(01:07):
the news of late about menopause leave or leave to
allow women with conditions like endometriosis and polycystic ovarian syndrome
to access extra leave, which I certainly would be a
fan of suffering both those conditions. And I'm really lucky
to have in the studio on the line with me
today Michelle O'Neil from the ACTU.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Hey, Michelle, that's how are you?
Speaker 1 (01:31):
I am great? I am great, and I am so
glad that we are talking about this today because it
means that it's getting out there and you know, into
the public and encouraging all this debate and all this talk.
What is it that you want to introduce? Tell us
about it.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Well, it's actually not menopause leave. It's reproductors leave. And
that's because menopause is something that affects, as we know,
half the population. But there's also a whole lot of
other issues to do with our reproductive health that affects
women as well as men. So whether that's menstruation and
(02:09):
conditions that sometimes go along with that, things like endometriosis
as you mentioned, or whether it's couples that are looking
for treatment to do with fertility issues, maybe going through IVF,
or whether it's a man having an eseectomy or a
woman dealing with the effects of miscarriage. These are all
(02:30):
issues to do with our reproductive health that we think
it's a very good idea to be able to introduce
additional paid leaves that recognizes that we're people and that
these issues around reproductive health just impact on our lives
in amazing ways, but they also really impact on our work,
(02:51):
and we've discovered that it's having a huge impact. And
if you think about menopause, for example, what we know
is that women are retiring significantly earlier than men, and
it seems though that menopause is a really key driver
of that.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
I will share with you an experience I had years ago.
My husband and I suffered with infertility and pregnancy loss
for a period of about five years. A previous employer
of mine where I was, I was going in for
an egg retrieval and stupidly probably admitted that, you know,
(03:29):
I'd need about three or four days off to have
that egg retrieval, and was probably too open and said
to my employer at the time, listen, I'm actually not
going to be in you know, for this period of time.
This is what's happening, just so you can fill your roster.
When I got back from yet another failed implantation and miscarriage,
(03:51):
you know, dust yourself off and come back into work
put on a happy face. I was dragged into the
office and said this leave you've just had, Oh, yes,
that's to be taken as annual leave. And I said,
what do you mean? And I was told it's your
choice to do IVF. That's what I was told. And
(04:12):
I said, well, actually, no, that's kind of bias on
the grounds of a medical condition. So this is what
some women are facing.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
I'm so sorry that you had to live through that.
That's a really traumatic experience. Must have been very very
hard on you and your partner as well. So unfortunately,
what you just told me is just not uncommon. And
that's one of the reasons why we really want to
(04:44):
change this conversation and talking about the need for additional
paid leave doesn't just give new rights for workers, it
actually changes what's been a really taboo set of topics
in our workplace. You women don't talk about having their periods.
It's really hard to talk about menopause, let alone issues
(05:08):
to do with fertility and going through IVF and all
of the practical and time and trauma related elements that
go through with all of those things. Miscarriages of courses
can be so hard on people who've lost a baby,
but again there's just this silence around it. And one
(05:29):
of the really important things about winning new rights is
that it also opens up new conversations and education and understanding.
And an example of that perhaps is that last two
years ago we won ten days paid family and domestic
violence leave, and that's a really important right and is
literally a life saving right for many women. But it
(05:52):
also means that there's a different conversation happening now in
workplaces about violence an impact. This is another example of that.
It's a really important thing that'll be good for workers,
but it'll also be good for businesses and the organizations
we work for, because if we understand what's impacting on
us as people, we're not machines, then you get better
(06:16):
results from people. You get people staying in the workplace longer.
You don't have people leaving without knowing why. And I
think it would really benefit the whole society.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
But also women that have worked decades to master their
craft and are really valuable to a company, to a
business leaving like they're retiring on average seven years before
men twelve years before their desired age of retirement. Can
I just go back to business because I was on
the project recently talking about the podcast and talking about
(06:51):
the impact on the workplace, and I've been inundated with
messages and i want to share some of them with you,
some not all positive negative.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Maxwell says.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
While I don't deny for a second, people need support.
We can't keep pushing responsibility onto employers when businesses are
struggling and closing left, right and center. What about those
people with cancer that get up and go to work
every day. How would you respond to that sort of sentiment.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Well, I think what we would all hope is that
we have workplaces and employers that do the right thing
without minimum rights and entitlements. But what we know is
that there's many workplaces where that's not the case, and
you gave us a really clear example of one. We
(07:44):
also know that women get discriminated against because of some
of these issues. So it is about saying that a
new right is nothing to be frightened of for employers,
because it will mean that you more likely to retain skilled,
committed staff. It'll mean you will be less likely to
(08:06):
have women retiring early because they haven't been able to
get the sort of flexibility and support they need to
stay at work. You'll attract people and more women into
the workforce if we recognize the impact that these things have.
And also, as I said, the reason we're talking about
reproductive lead is that this isn't just about women. It's
(08:29):
also about men and the impact the reproductive health issues
have on them too, So it is something that will
also be good for men in the workplace. It'll be
good for everybody in the workplace. And this is not
something that we're just starting to talk about. And fact
unions have been our campaigning and winning agreements with clauses
(08:50):
for paid reproductive lead over the last few years. And
we've just seen the Queensland government announce ten days paid
reproductive leave for all public sector workers up in Queensland,
which is a massive change for workers in that state
and it's leading the way. But just back on your
point two, Pats that when we ask women in that
(09:13):
forty five to fifty four year old age group when
they typically want to retire, they say they want to
retire at sixty four, But they're a quarter of Australian
working women are actually retiring at the age of fifty five,
so that is twelve years before they said they wanted
(09:33):
to retire, and on averages she said seven years before
men So something's going on there that's not good. It's
not good for business. So instead of looking at it
as well, this would be an extra cost, it actually
can be something that will make businesses more effective and
more profitable, to keep good people and recognize who we are,
(09:53):
all of who we are, instead of only parts of
who we are.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Shari said something really funny. She's written, wish it was
around years ago. I think my sewing lecturer at TAFE
needed leave. She was moody and probably menopausal.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Well, look, you know that's the other thing. Sometimes there's
some myths about it. I mean, we all know there
is mood related issues to do with hormones. Somebody asked
me about menopause the other day. I'm not saying a
thing about that. But it is also though not just
about leave, it's about making arrangements that make work realize
(10:33):
that you can do things to make things better. So
we all know, for example, about temperature fluctuations. Now, if
that was something that was able to be properly talked
about in the workplace. If you could make adjustments around that,
people are going to be able to work better and
say it work longer. If we're able to pick up
on things like that, you may need it short notice
(10:54):
leave for things like IVF treatment for both a woman
and man to be able to respond to this cycle
like this is not always something that you can plan.
So if that's understood that it's not like, well, I'm
going to tell you in two weeks I need this time,
but in fact, relatively short notice to be able to
have some time to have fertility treatment is really important
(11:16):
part of this too. So it's busting the myths about
it as well, and not just thinking, oh, it's about
women being shitty.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
That is a really valid point about the myths that exists.
Because Carolyn's written more reason to discriminate against women? No thanks.
Is it a case of them just not knowing enough
about what it is that you're trying to put forward?
Why and from a woman as well that point of view.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
No, Look, that it's a really valid point and a
valid thing to be worried about. But what we know though,
is that discrimination is already happening. So having access to
leave having access and a right to flexible work arrangements
and having this talked about more at work will actually
help end discrimination. It's not like that there's not discrimination
(12:04):
going on now. There currently is discrimination going on and
we know that effects. You know, women are working for
not as many years as men, but also women earn
significantly less than men. Women retire with significantly less money
than men. The Australian Institute of Superannuation Trustees estimates that
(12:25):
menopause can cost women in that fifty to fifty four
age group more than fifteen billion dollars per year in
lost earnings and super for every year of early retirement.
So that's a massive impact on Australian women financial impact.
So it's already having that discriminatory effect. So I understand
(12:45):
the concern. You don't want to be stuck in a
box and people say, oh, you know this is all
because of you know, your menstruating or your menopause all,
but you do want to make sure that we aren't
affected negative of lead, because of something that's a normal
part of our life.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Yeah, and I think flexibility in the workplace it's going
to be for everyone.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Correct, Yeah, of course it does. And when we already
have rights to flexible work arrangements for key things. We're
proposing that reproductive health gets added to that. So if
you're pregnant, or you've got a disability, or you're an
older worker, or you're experiencing family domestic violence, you do
have some rights now to be able to request flexible work,
(13:27):
and those rights got strengthened in the last year or two.
We think having reproductive health in there is an important
change that needs to happen. And I don't think we
should underestimate how many workers, women and men are affected
by this every day now and so pretending that's not
(13:48):
happening or putting our head in the stand about it.
You know, one of the big problems we've got, Pats,
is that we don't research this properly. So we're also
looking for there to be a better understand better research
done about what sort of impact is it having on productivity?
What sort of impact is a lack of understanding having
on people's ability to do the very best by their
(14:13):
family and buy their work.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
So getting to the basics, Michelle, what is it that
you're calling for. So we're talking ten days extra per
calendar year.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Yeah, but non cumulative issues related to menstruation, miscarriage, vasectomies, hysterectomies.
The list goes on, and some of these, of course
are really important. If you have time to be able
to get proper screening for things like breast and cross
that cancer, then of course you're less likely to then
(14:43):
end up unwell and unable to work. So there's preventative
health issues that are good for everyone in this too.
And so you would need to provide a proof that
is to a reasonable level that this is what you
are requiring to believe for. You can take it either
in half days or days or multiple days, depending on
(15:06):
your needs and where it's been introduced. And as I said,
we've been unions have been winning this in agreements around
the country for a few years now. What we're hearing
back is that it's actually really helped improve people staying
in their workplace, being able to keep working longer than
they would otherwise to, and being able to make sure
(15:29):
they can balance their life and their work.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
And so these ten days are in addition to their
normal sick day allowance.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Yeah yeah, so personally is ten days at the moment
for workers. But if you remember that that's not just
for you if you're sick, it's also sleeper that you
care for, So this would be additional leave, but of
course it doesn't get used unless it's necessary and there's
a reasonable element of proof that goes along with it.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
So where to from here, Michelle, So you've put the
request forward. Will this go before the Senate inquiry or
what happens with you?
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Yes? So there's been a Senate inquiry that's been just
looking at menopause and perimenopause at the moment, and we've
appeared before that inquiry. We've put forward a range of proposals,
including the flexible work arrangements and the additional leave, and
that issues about doing better research about what's really going on,
(16:23):
and as well as that, we recently had what's called
the ACTU Congress. It's when all the unions from all
over the country get together and plan what we're going
to be doing in the coming three years. And a
key outcome of that congress was support for trying to
win ten days paid reproductive leave through our bargaining in
enterprise agreements, but also as a national employment standard for
(16:46):
all workers. So unions are working now around the country
with their members and talking to employers about why this
is a good idea, and we'll also be campaigning to
have the government introduce it readily.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
I just think it's a really good opportunity to seize
the moment and make positive change and more than anything,
as the mum of a teenage daughter, make and leave
a legacy for future generations, Like it really is as
major as that it's a natural health condition and it
should happen.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
It's such a natural thing, and it's still it's sort
of shocking that it's so taboo, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
This is why I'm enjoying the podcast, you know, Entering Perimenopause.
It's just it's like we're in the eighteen hundreds and
I just want to bust that and just get the
conversation rolling because it's just it's so overdue.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Well good on you, because that's right. And the more
that there's this culture of silence, the more that we
all suffer from that. It's not just the women who
are dealing with effects of menopause. It's of course our
whole workplaces suffer, our family suffer, and the community suffers
and business suffers from it. Like if we talk about it,
most we understand it, moth. We'd normalize this, then it's
(17:58):
going to be better for everyone. And you know the
other thing I reckon because even in twenty twenty four,
a whole lot of our work rights and work arrangements
are based on the idea that a normal worker is man,
and we've got to change that. And that's one of
the reasons we still see the gender pay gap, one
of the reasons we still see rampant sexual harassments and
(18:21):
things in the workplace. We just have to make sure
that our attitudes and our responses to workers catch up
with the fact that women are workers. And you wouldn't
think you needed to say that in twenty twenty four,
but we do. We do.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
That's a sad thing we do. Thank you so much, Michelle.
I'm really excited by you know what we're going to see,
hopefully happen in the next twelve months. How soon would
we get this leave enshrined?
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Well, like always, you know, to win new rights for workers,
we've got to fight for them and campaign for them.
But I'm really heartened by the number of agreements that
are now starting to be done where employers and unions
are agreeing without a fight about why this is the
good idea and as I said that, the Queensland government
has recently led the way with introducing it for all
(19:12):
public sector workers up there, so I'm hopeful that we'll
win this soon. But I encourage everyone to be part
of it. And I want to thank you Pats for
doing this great podcast. It's such an important part of
changing attitudes what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Oh thanks, Michelle, it's been a delight to have you on.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Thanks for that.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
The Victorian Women's Trust says more than eighty percent of
women experiencing menopause say their work was negatively affected. Seventy
percent report not being comfortable talking to their boss about
ways to support them. It's a divisive issue reproductive leave,
whether business can or can't afford it, but can we
afford to lose the expertise these women in their chosen fields.
(19:49):
Metopause in the Workplace continues our theme in episode seven,
I'm in my power now when I welcome Grace Molloy
from Menopause Friendly Australia. I'm Patrina Ja and this is
a rage against the menopause.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Mhmm.
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