August 7, 2024 • 26 mins
Her titles “Up the Duff” and “Women’s Stuff” are bibles for women. At last! Best-selling Author Kaz Cooke has released an advice guide “It’s the Menopause”
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
It's time to rage against the menopause with Petrina Jones.
My next guest is someone I've long admired and grew
up reading in Dolly magazine, and Cleo ignited my passion
for journalism. In fact, Kaz Cook is an ossie author,
cartoonist and broadcaster. Chances are, if you're a parent, like
me in a gazillion others, you had a copy of
Up the Duff on your bedside table. The Practical Guide
(00:22):
to Pregnancy and Childbirth was a staple for any baby
shower hamper. While she has lent her talents to Menopause penning,
It's the Menopause, a reassuring, practical go to from a
trusted source after talking to literally thousands of women. I
love that for women by women. It's full of her
laugh out loud signature style and felt like a gift
(00:42):
from the gods when it landed on my desk one
morning after the show Welcome and thank You. I've got
to say this book, it's almost like a gift from
the heavens. I'm not kidding because I came off the show,
off the Christian o'connells show one morning a few weeks back,
and your book. Your publicist had sent me this amazing
(01:03):
new book, it's the Menopause, and it was sitting on
my desk and it was almost like a gift from
the gods, like they were listening.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Oh that's gorgeous, thank you so much. Well, I wish
i'd had it when I was going through menopause. I'm
just through. And yeah, it's just with that my background
as a journalist, I thought, you know, this is going
to be a big job. But I didn't realize it
was going to take me three and a half years
of my life. A million, not a million, but you know,
(01:34):
nine MILLI nine thousand women filling in the survey and
selling me all their secrets and wishes and worries, and
then all the medical electors. So it's been huge and
it's for me too. It's lovely to see it all
in one package now and ready to go.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Oh no, congratulations, it's you know, your books are like bibles.
I hope you realize that up the Duff was so
pivotal to my pregnancy experience twelve thirteen years ago.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
And it's just so yes, I mean, it is amazing.
It's a multi generational thing with my books now because
I keep updating them, and it's so nice to have
mothers and daughters both reading different different books at different
stages of their lives.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Well, you know, when I grew up, when I was
a teenager in the eighties, I think it was doctor
Llewellyn Jones.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Every woman, imagine having your body explained to you by,
you know, a man, and that's how it was for
so many people. I mean, doctors didn't even know what
hormones were until the nineteen thirty so they've got a
lot of catching up to those.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Tell me about your book, Tell me about the chapters.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
What I decided to do with the book is to
get you know, those comments and quotes from nine thousand women.
So part of the book is like a conversation between
women on all of those things, plus the experts. But
I've divided into chapters, so you know, we start the
first chapters called what even is the menopause? And then
(03:02):
it's a chapter called It's Your Hormones because I think
we're all really confused about progesterone, estrogen, testosterone, How much
do we need? What's happening? Are our levels of hormones
falling off a cliff in our forties, or as I
explain it, it's kind of more like the ABC logos.
So it's take up, down, around, and going backwards. And
(03:25):
then I talk about because I think a lot of people,
we're all old enough and grown up enough to bring
our own philosophy to what's happening to our health. So
but it doesn't always work when we hit menopause. You know, medication,
we may not want to take it, or maybe we can't.
Maybe the self help stuff isn't working for us. So
(03:47):
I talk about how solutions to menopausal symptoms can be
like a buffet. So you choose and here's all the
evidence based information that you need. Page thirty six of
the book is more than the thirty symptoms that women
haven't even known were connected with their hormones. And I
didn't when I started going through it. So it's insane
(04:08):
mental changes, the brain fogs, the lack of concentration, the
confidence falling off a cliff, and you know, then there's
all the body stuff. So it's not just hot flushes.
It's crazy heavy periods, it's headaches for many people, it's
itchy skin. Who knew itchy skin? How do you do
with the menopause?
Speaker 1 (04:28):
We'll talk about itchy skin. I've got the weirdest thing.
I've got dermatitis in my ears, which is driving men.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Same, Oh, that would drive you, and that is something
that you know, dry skin everywhere, everything that so many
women didn't know was connected. And then it's just your
sex life as well.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
And sex life.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah, well it's often joked about, oh, women just lose interest.
But what women told me in the survey was, for
many women, it's so incredibly painful. Many women mentioned it
and said it's like razor blade.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
And there are.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Pollutions for all of these things, but women are often
shamed to talk about the fact that they're weeing unexpectedly
or when they come sneeze, and they didn't know that
that was connected to perimenopause and what they can do
about it. So, and I think a lot of people also,
I don't know about you. It's not like I was
ever a supermodel who had to rely on my looks
(05:24):
for my career or anything. But even I was sort
of going, oh, my face is sliding off the front
of my head, and why is my hair suddenly all whoopy?
And I used to think that as you got older,
women just stopped bothering, you know, doing anything with their hair.
And then I realized, no, actually your hair changes.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
It does. Oh the hair's manky. What's with the hair.
It's just no amount of good Oh, no amount of
good shampoo, blow drying, setting, nothing works. It just doesn't
want to do what it's meant or you need it
to do.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
No, because it's it's changed. Things you can do. But
one of the really important parts of the book for
me was to let us all know that there are
so many ripoffs out there. There are so many claims.
I mean, people are selling menopause shampoo, menopause conditioner, menopause moisturizer.
It's all nonsense.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
People are using us as a marketing opportunity, and we
need to understand that they're absolutely coming for us. And
you can't just Google because you get this kind of
firehose of people selling your stuff and it's not necessarily
the information that you need. So I've got a whole
section on how to talk to your GP, what to
ask your GP, which websites are trustworthy, because it can
(06:44):
just be so confusing for people when they hit menopause,
even if they know that's what is the cause. Of
their problems.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Yeah, why do you think this is? Why? This is
the whole reason I'm doing the podcast is because I
want to formulate your of support for other women who
are going through it. But also my other main thing
is I really want to open the conversation. Why why
aren't we talking about it? Why aren't we when we
(07:11):
go and have coffee with our girlfriends If we're not,
what is the mojo that's hanging over it? I think
we should talk about it like we do conception and
pregnancy and childbirth. Why do you think that is?
Speaker 2 (07:24):
I think there's a number of reasons, and one of
them is a really huge one I reckon is shame.
Women have been taught that their periods or anything to
do with women's health is lucky or shameful or embarrassing,
and we shouldn't talk about it, even with our doctors,
even with our girlfriends. I do think it's changing, but
(07:44):
I think that's one of the reasons for this book too,
as well as the same reason as your podcast, to
share feelings, to share experiences, but also to understand that
everyone's experience is different, so when you share them, when
you see your stories, the more we can do that
the more we understand that some people breathe through with
(08:06):
hardly any problems, other people have a really difficult time.
And I was really shocked to discover, when I tell
you about what people had told me in the survey,
that so many people withdraw from their friends during perimenopause.
It's part of losing their confidence, it's part of feeling
that you know, they're not good at things anymore. They
(08:28):
tend to go into their shell often during perimenopause, and
that's a problem at home with your friends and at work,
and then again that creates even more shame. One of
the interesting things about hot flushes is women are so
embarrassed to get a hot flush at work or if
they've got a job where they're in front of people
(08:48):
and perhaps is a teacher or a nurse and having
to be, you know, the voice of authority. And if
you don't know, then a hot flush can look to
other people and feel to yourself like it's anxiety or
a panic attack, or you're embarrassed, or you're fipping, because
those are the things we associate with going red and sweating. Right,
(09:08):
So we've got to change the knowledge space, get rid
of the shame and I think the other thing is
it is tied up with the way society treats older women.
We think about all the words that are used, you know,
old chuk and crone and bunch of grandmas, and you know,
where do you think about women in their forties who
(09:28):
are getting these symptoms, you know, and sort of being embarrassed.
I think to be associated with aging, embarrassed to go gray.
And that's a choice that I've decided not to go
gray yet, and that's just an individual choice. But I
think there's so much stigma with women's health, with periods
and with getting older, and all of that is going
(09:51):
to have to change as we support each other.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
That yeah, And I'd like to think by the time
my daughter is going through this in decades time, that
the narrative ha has changed. I think it is seen
as a sign of weakness just aging in general. And
really when your flowers sort of dying out and crumbling
away in a lot of ways, I think you're really
growing into yourself, especially when you turn around fifty, I reckon,
(10:17):
don't you think?
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Well? The last chapter of my book is all of
the positive, optimistic, wonderful things that women are sharing with
each other and there is a sense of freedom that
comes with letting go of the idea of what you
should look like or what you should do. I think
a lot of women are really looking at taking what
(10:40):
can help them in medication, what can help them with
wellness or self help that there's evidence for. They're getting
canny about, Okay, what are my priorities in life. They're
saying to their teenage kids or older kids living at
home with them, it's time that you did your own laundry,
your own washing, saying that partners too. People are changing,
(11:03):
They're not putting up with the way they've been treated
in the past. And I think you know that there
are lovely families and lovely partners who are trying to
help women through perimenopause and menopause and feeling really confused.
And that's why, you know books and podcasts that are
independent and not trying to sell you something, that are
(11:25):
really just trying to sell you. The idea of you know,
you decide who you are and what you want out
of life in the last half of your life. I mean,
that's a long way to go, right, Yes. The idea
of writing ourselves off in our forties and fifties is
you know is I think we're all questioning that now.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
I love that, Kas. What helped you? You say that
you're sort of out the other end of it? Now?
How long do you think you went through that perimenopausal
stage and what sort of lengths did you go to?
What helped you in your experience?
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Well, I did not realize that what was happening to
me was perimenopause. I was losing sleep, and that is
a really huge symptom of perimenopause. It makes everything harder.
I had the confidence crash, and all of that happened
years before I had my first hot flush. And when
I went to the doctor, I reckon. I was in
(12:22):
there for about twelve minutes and came out with antidepressants,
and I know now that that was not right for
me at that time. I think antidepressants can be great
for many people and at different times, but for me,
I think the doctor completely missed that I was entering
into perimenopause. I think I had three or four years
(12:45):
of really difficult mental problems and sleep problems, and then
I reckon, I had about two years of hot flushes.
But then I went on medication and that just completely
controlled it. So some people that you know, they breathe
through that. You know, they don't even really notice. Other
people they get noticeable symptoms like crazy periods, hot slashes,
(13:10):
you know, sneaky weing, and that might depending on whether
they tackle that with medication, and you know what their
own philosophy is. I mean, one woman in the survey
pat said to me that she was in her eighties
and still getting hot slushes.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Yeah, people have one for.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
More than a decade, more than twelve years, more than
fifteen years, and have not been well served, you know,
by their medical professionals. Some doctors are great, and there's
that's why there's stuff in the book about you know,
what to ask your doctor, how to find a good doctor.
For me, that's what made the difference is doing all
this research and finding out what I was going through
(13:49):
and why. I mean, I was so relieved when I
found out that my crazy itchiness, you know, had a
physical hormonal reason because I just really did a lot
of women talk about thinking that they've hit early dementia.
A lot of women are quitting their job. I mean,
for me, I did have a period when I didn't
know what was happening where I thought, oh I can't
(14:11):
be a writer anymore. I can't remember words. I'm confused about,
you know, keeping track of my research. And thankfully I
then understood that it was temporary and there was medication
I could take for it. They think so many women
suffer in silence.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Were you on HRT.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
I'm still on MHT, which is the new name for HRT.
Used to be called hormone or replacement therapy, and now
doctors want us to call it menopause or hormone therapy,
right And I'm still on it, and I'm on it
partly to protect my bones and to lower my risk
of heart designs. I'm in menopause, that is, you know,
for the rest of my life.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
So is that like a patch cat.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
I used gel for the estrogen. I use an oral
tablet for progesterone because you've got to take progesterone if
you still have a uterus and you're taking estrogen. Some
of this is quite complex, but in a way, it's
just simple, if you know. And that's what I've written
it down all in one place.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I'm not taking any thing, and I'm not saying that
to say anihero, that's not at all. But I'm not
even taking vitamins or minerals, which is not a good thing.
I should be taking something, but it's because I don't
know what's out there.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
A lot of vitamins are completely unnecessary if you have
a reasonable diet. You only need to take supplements if
you've got a deficiency, so that that involves going to
a good GP, getting tested, seeing what your vitamin D
levels are, and having a bone test if you've started perimenopause,
having a bone density test. This is all in the book.
(15:42):
These are all the things you can do to protect yourself.
If you don't have symptoms that are driving you nuts
that MHT would help, then no point in taking MHT.
It's not an automatic thing, it's not the devil, and
it's not a cure all. So you've got to look
at the symptom that you have, if any, and deal
with what can help you with those. It's kind of
(16:04):
common sense. It's a bit like I say, here's the
buffet of things that you can choose from bus I
do sweep a whole bunch of crockery off one end
of the buffet laible and say ignore this stuff because
there's no evidence for it, and this is just people
trying it that thing.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
It's like a platter, You've laid it out and it's
I guess it's for each woman to try what works
for them, because what works for you may not necessarily
work for someone else.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Well, we know that MHT, which used to be called HRT,
is a great frontline treatment for several of the symptoms,
and it's really reliable and it will help. We know
that exercise is really great. We know that trying to
do something to deal with stress really helps hot flushes
and other things. So there is this mix of self
(16:53):
help and medication if you can take it. There are
also alternative medications to take. If you have a history
of breast cancer or endemetrial cancer and you've been advised
not to take MHT, you can still probably take and
in vagina cream which will help with the driver gina
symptoms and will also help with those wiing symptoms. So
(17:16):
it's just a matter of all this information that women
haven't been given in the past, and we need that
base left. I mean, it's such a cliche, right, Pats,
But knowledge is power. If you can go to the
GP knowing which symptoms you might have and you get
a bad GP who says, oh, you just have to
put up with it, or oh you're too young. You're
too young in your forties to be having these symptoms.
(17:38):
That's a GP that you either need to get educated
fast or you need to.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Go to another dog signed another GPS, and a good GP.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Is absolute gold in helping me through this. And women
said in the survey they really love the GPS who
listen to them and help them. A lot of us
go through it feeling alone. Yeah, and we were actually
fifty perth of the population who will experience this.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
That's what I mean. I'm so flabbagasted that there's not
not enough talk because it affects so many women across
the world, I.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Know, and there's still such a stigma, like two point
five million Australians yes, are either in menopause or approaching
the perimenopause, which just means all the symptoms around and
leading up to menopause. And I'm hearing men saying, oh,
no one's really interested in some men saying no one's
really interested in this, or this is a bit embarrassing,
(18:31):
or someone actually said to me live in an TV interview,
Oh but you wouldn't give it to someone as a present.
Why not, it's not why not to say, guys, like,
every other woman in the world will go through menopause
and here's a fun book with cartoons and evans faced information.
I was so indignant. I was like, oh my god,
(18:52):
this is what we're fighting against, you know, this idea.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Yeah, we need to change the narrative and normalize it
because it's a perfectly normal stage of life. Yeah, was
it three years? It took you to write the book.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
About three and a half years to solidly research and
write it. And I'm so in awe of all the
fabulous experts, many of them women, that Australia has now
doing research in psychiatric areas of what menopause does to
mental health, all the studies that many professors who are
(19:29):
experts in the area are trying to do now about
different hormones and the effect that they have. But we
are so behind the eight ball with research.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
And like we say, women are so in such a
desperate period of their lives as well, Like some days
you feel really rancid and you're just desperate for some
sort of relief from the hot flushes, from the exhaustion.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah, and that's the difficulty too, because when hormones are erratic,
which is exactly what happens to perimenopause. You can feel
a certain thing one day and then it suddenly goes
by half past three. You don't get it next Tuesday,
but then it's back next Thursday, and then nothing happens
for two months, and it's so bizarre, so confusing. Yeah, yeah,
(20:13):
that's actually really characterizic.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
You do actually feel like I don't know how you felt,
but I actually feel it. Sometimes I think I actually
I'm going a bit batty, like I'm going crazy.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Absolutely, so many women said they thought they were having
early dementia, and you know, in the survey, so many
things came up in the survey and the quotes that
are in the book that I didn't expect, and you know, oh,
I've just lost my train of thought. We're going to
say it's brain frog again, going to say no, it's gone, no.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Good, No, haven't got it?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Oh sorry, Pat, Now I don't apologize.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
It's it is complete. I get it all the time.
I had doctor Sarah, and here I go, I can't
think of a surname now from jeen Hale's foundation.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
It's hilarious.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
I was saying to her, how on air. You know,
it's this whole imposter syndrome that you go through waves of.
But I'll be talking to Christian and Jack and I'll
be on a train of thought and then all of
a sudden, it's like someone just rips the rug out
from under me. And I feel like such a twat
on air because I've got no idea, like I think,
oh my god, Like if you're in an office environment,
(21:25):
you can probably get away with it, but when you're
on air, you must look like.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
A It happens to me in interviews sometimes too. And
that I was going to say that women do feel
like they're going mad. One of the things that women said,
and I didn't expect this. Women use the phrase not myself,
I don't feel myself. I don't know who I am.
I've lost myself, And I think that is talking about
(21:52):
those mental changes and understanding that there's a hormonal reason
for them, even if you don't get treatment, can be
so comforting. Understanding that other women are going through it.
Because that's the bit that I had no idea was
a perimenopausal sympathy.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Yeah, I think we need to be honest and I
think we need to get real and I think we
need to remove the shame that seems to be around
perimenopause and menopause and it's not a negative thing. And
you're right, we need to support one another, both men
and women. You know, support your partner.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
We don't have to pretend that we're all pert everything.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
At the end of the day and we're all going
through it, and we need to build this village and
support one another.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yeap, totally agree. I just think it's time that women
got the information in their hands. Yeah, and we just
stop pretending that we're super women who can go through
all these stages of our lives and pretend that it's
not affecting us. I don't think it does women any
And I saw a commentator the other day. I was
(23:03):
really shocked that it was a woman saying, Oh, we
should stop all this talk about menopause women. It's going
to make women get sacked and it's going to prove
that women are no good in the work in the workplace,
and I thought you completely got the wrong end of
the stick. You know, every workplace needs to be flexible
enough to help people, whether they're going through a menopause
(23:25):
or they're a bloke who's got medical issues, or someone
needs to pick up their kids from work. Every workplace
needs to be kinder to its employees. We all need
to support each other. I'm sounding like I'm mad hippie now,
but this idea of that not at all. That we're
cruel to people if they need a little help. I
(23:46):
just don't think that's the way the world should go anymore.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
I think just because you're a woman, and just because
you get periods and can birth a baby and will
eventually go through pery and menopause, just because you get
it because you're a woman, I don't feel that that
should be discounted. It should be recognized just like every
other medical condition in the workplace. It should be no different.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Yeah, and I also think it makes women have a
better understanding of other people, a breadth of experience. Women
are brave, Women have a higher pain threshold. They are
going through all these things, and yet they're holding down
jobs and making sure that they're doing all the emotional
labor at home, and they should be commended for it.
(24:34):
You know, there's this I mean, I'm just not interested
in pretending that perfect is normal. Perfect is impossible. You know,
women have got to stop thinking they need to be
perfect at what they look like, what they do, how
they conduct themselves in life. We've been amazing for decades
in our family, in our work, and it's time that
(24:56):
we gave ourselves a little pad on the back and
understood that we help each other through. Menopause is something
that you experience and you go through and you get
to the other side, and like the last chapter of
my book says, you know, this is the rest of
your life with more freedom, more confidence and this. Everybody
(25:16):
talked in the survey about how important their women friends
were and I just thought that was a lovely thing
to celebrate as well.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Tell me I have one question in closing, Will I
feel normal again?
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Yes, you will get yourself based, you'll be yourself again,
and in fact it will be better. You will have
more confidence, you will understand your body better if you
make yourself aware of all this stuff. And honestly, there
was just so much optimism that women shared and they
(25:51):
all talked about freedom, a mental and physical freedom. Getting
to the other side.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Oh, I love it. Sounds like nirvana to me as.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Something to look forward to.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Award winning author kas Cook talking about her Lady's book
It's the Menopause through Penguin Books. I highly recommend it.
Our Menopause Journey Next takes us to what will feel
like you evesdropping on two best friends at your local cafe,
because that's exactly what it is. I catch up with
one of my dearest friends, journalist, radio and TV presenter
(26:26):
and podcaster Sarah Patterson, or Beryl as I affectionately call her.
We've known each other since we were teenagers, and well,
I promised to frank chat. And that's exactly what it is,
as kindred spirits navigate this crazy thing we call menopause.
I'm Petrina Jones.
It's time to rage against the menopause with Petrina Jones.
My next guest is someone I've long admired and grew
up reading in Dolly magazine, and Cleo ignited my passion
for journalism. In fact, Kaz Cook is an ossie author,
cartoonist and broadcaster. Chances are, if you're a parent, like
me in a gazillion others, you had a copy of
Up the Duff on your bedside table. The Practical Guide
(00:22):
to Pregnancy and Childbirth was a staple for any baby
shower hamper. While she has lent her talents to Menopause penning,
It's the Menopause, a reassuring, practical go to from a
trusted source after talking to literally thousands of women. I
love that for women by women. It's full of her
laugh out loud signature style and felt like a gift
(00:42):
from the gods when it landed on my desk one
morning after the show Welcome and thank You. I've got
to say this book, it's almost like a gift from
the heavens. I'm not kidding because I came off the show,
off the Christian o'connells show one morning a few weeks back,
and your book. Your publicist had sent me this amazing
(01:03):
new book, it's the Menopause, and it was sitting on
my desk and it was almost like a gift from
the gods, like they were listening.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Oh that's gorgeous, thank you so much. Well, I wish
i'd had it when I was going through menopause. I'm
just through. And yeah, it's just with that my background
as a journalist, I thought, you know, this is going
to be a big job. But I didn't realize it
was going to take me three and a half years
of my life. A million, not a million, but you know,
(01:34):
nine MILLI nine thousand women filling in the survey and
selling me all their secrets and wishes and worries, and
then all the medical electors. So it's been huge and
it's for me too. It's lovely to see it all
in one package now and ready to go.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Oh no, congratulations, it's you know, your books are like bibles.
I hope you realize that up the Duff was so
pivotal to my pregnancy experience twelve thirteen years ago.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
And it's just so yes, I mean, it is amazing.
It's a multi generational thing with my books now because
I keep updating them, and it's so nice to have
mothers and daughters both reading different different books at different
stages of their lives.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Well, you know, when I grew up, when I was
a teenager in the eighties, I think it was doctor
Llewellyn Jones.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Every woman, imagine having your body explained to you by,
you know, a man, and that's how it was for
so many people. I mean, doctors didn't even know what
hormones were until the nineteen thirty so they've got a
lot of catching up to those.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Tell me about your book, Tell me about the chapters.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
What I decided to do with the book is to
get you know, those comments and quotes from nine thousand women.
So part of the book is like a conversation between
women on all of those things, plus the experts. But
I've divided into chapters, so you know, we start the
first chapters called what even is the menopause? And then
(03:02):
it's a chapter called It's Your Hormones because I think
we're all really confused about progesterone, estrogen, testosterone, How much
do we need? What's happening? Are our levels of hormones
falling off a cliff in our forties, or as I
explain it, it's kind of more like the ABC logos.
So it's take up, down, around, and going backwards. And
(03:25):
then I talk about because I think a lot of people,
we're all old enough and grown up enough to bring
our own philosophy to what's happening to our health. So
but it doesn't always work when we hit menopause. You know, medication,
we may not want to take it, or maybe we can't.
Maybe the self help stuff isn't working for us. So
(03:47):
I talk about how solutions to menopausal symptoms can be
like a buffet. So you choose and here's all the
evidence based information that you need. Page thirty six of
the book is more than the thirty symptoms that women
haven't even known were connected with their hormones. And I
didn't when I started going through it. So it's insane
(04:08):
mental changes, the brain fogs, the lack of concentration, the
confidence falling off a cliff, and you know, then there's
all the body stuff. So it's not just hot flushes.
It's crazy heavy periods, it's headaches for many people, it's
itchy skin. Who knew itchy skin? How do you do
with the menopause?
Speaker 1 (04:28):
We'll talk about itchy skin. I've got the weirdest thing.
I've got dermatitis in my ears, which is driving men.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Same, Oh, that would drive you, and that is something
that you know, dry skin everywhere, everything that so many
women didn't know was connected. And then it's just your
sex life as well.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
And sex life.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah, well it's often joked about, oh, women just lose interest.
But what women told me in the survey was, for
many women, it's so incredibly painful. Many women mentioned it
and said it's like razor blade.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
And there are.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Pollutions for all of these things, but women are often
shamed to talk about the fact that they're weeing unexpectedly
or when they come sneeze, and they didn't know that
that was connected to perimenopause and what they can do
about it. So, and I think a lot of people also,
I don't know about you. It's not like I was
ever a supermodel who had to rely on my looks
(05:24):
for my career or anything. But even I was sort
of going, oh, my face is sliding off the front
of my head, and why is my hair suddenly all whoopy?
And I used to think that as you got older,
women just stopped bothering, you know, doing anything with their hair.
And then I realized, no, actually your hair changes.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
It does. Oh the hair's manky. What's with the hair.
It's just no amount of good Oh, no amount of
good shampoo, blow drying, setting, nothing works. It just doesn't
want to do what it's meant or you need it
to do.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
No, because it's it's changed. Things you can do. But
one of the really important parts of the book for
me was to let us all know that there are
so many ripoffs out there. There are so many claims.
I mean, people are selling menopause shampoo, menopause conditioner, menopause moisturizer.
It's all nonsense.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
People are using us as a marketing opportunity, and we
need to understand that they're absolutely coming for us. And
you can't just Google because you get this kind of
firehose of people selling your stuff and it's not necessarily
the information that you need. So I've got a whole
section on how to talk to your GP, what to
ask your GP, which websites are trustworthy, because it can
(06:44):
just be so confusing for people when they hit menopause,
even if they know that's what is the cause. Of
their problems.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Yeah, why do you think this is? Why? This is
the whole reason I'm doing the podcast is because I
want to formulate your of support for other women who
are going through it. But also my other main thing
is I really want to open the conversation. Why why
aren't we talking about it? Why aren't we when we
(07:11):
go and have coffee with our girlfriends If we're not,
what is the mojo that's hanging over it? I think
we should talk about it like we do conception and
pregnancy and childbirth. Why do you think that is?
Speaker 2 (07:24):
I think there's a number of reasons, and one of
them is a really huge one I reckon is shame.
Women have been taught that their periods or anything to
do with women's health is lucky or shameful or embarrassing,
and we shouldn't talk about it, even with our doctors,
even with our girlfriends. I do think it's changing, but
(07:44):
I think that's one of the reasons for this book too,
as well as the same reason as your podcast, to
share feelings, to share experiences, but also to understand that
everyone's experience is different, so when you share them, when
you see your stories, the more we can do that
the more we understand that some people breathe through with
(08:06):
hardly any problems, other people have a really difficult time.
And I was really shocked to discover, when I tell
you about what people had told me in the survey,
that so many people withdraw from their friends during perimenopause.
It's part of losing their confidence, it's part of feeling
that you know, they're not good at things anymore. They
(08:28):
tend to go into their shell often during perimenopause, and
that's a problem at home with your friends and at work,
and then again that creates even more shame. One of
the interesting things about hot flushes is women are so
embarrassed to get a hot flush at work or if
they've got a job where they're in front of people
(08:48):
and perhaps is a teacher or a nurse and having
to be, you know, the voice of authority. And if
you don't know, then a hot flush can look to
other people and feel to yourself like it's anxiety or
a panic attack, or you're embarrassed, or you're fipping, because
those are the things we associate with going red and sweating. Right,
(09:08):
So we've got to change the knowledge space, get rid
of the shame and I think the other thing is
it is tied up with the way society treats older women.
We think about all the words that are used, you know,
old chuk and crone and bunch of grandmas, and you know,
where do you think about women in their forties who
(09:28):
are getting these symptoms, you know, and sort of being embarrassed.
I think to be associated with aging, embarrassed to go gray.
And that's a choice that I've decided not to go
gray yet, and that's just an individual choice. But I
think there's so much stigma with women's health, with periods
and with getting older, and all of that is going
(09:51):
to have to change as we support each other.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
That yeah, And I'd like to think by the time
my daughter is going through this in decades time, that
the narrative ha has changed. I think it is seen
as a sign of weakness just aging in general. And
really when your flowers sort of dying out and crumbling
away in a lot of ways, I think you're really
growing into yourself, especially when you turn around fifty, I reckon,
(10:17):
don't you think?
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Well? The last chapter of my book is all of
the positive, optimistic, wonderful things that women are sharing with
each other and there is a sense of freedom that
comes with letting go of the idea of what you
should look like or what you should do. I think
a lot of women are really looking at taking what
(10:40):
can help them in medication, what can help them with
wellness or self help that there's evidence for. They're getting
canny about, Okay, what are my priorities in life. They're
saying to their teenage kids or older kids living at
home with them, it's time that you did your own laundry,
your own washing, saying that partners too. People are changing,
(11:03):
They're not putting up with the way they've been treated
in the past. And I think you know that there
are lovely families and lovely partners who are trying to
help women through perimenopause and menopause and feeling really confused.
And that's why, you know books and podcasts that are
independent and not trying to sell you something, that are
(11:25):
really just trying to sell you. The idea of you know,
you decide who you are and what you want out
of life in the last half of your life. I mean,
that's a long way to go, right, Yes. The idea
of writing ourselves off in our forties and fifties is
you know is I think we're all questioning that now.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
I love that, Kas. What helped you? You say that
you're sort of out the other end of it? Now?
How long do you think you went through that perimenopausal
stage and what sort of lengths did you go to?
What helped you in your experience?
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Well, I did not realize that what was happening to
me was perimenopause. I was losing sleep, and that is
a really huge symptom of perimenopause. It makes everything harder.
I had the confidence crash, and all of that happened
years before I had my first hot flush. And when
I went to the doctor, I reckon. I was in
(12:22):
there for about twelve minutes and came out with antidepressants,
and I know now that that was not right for
me at that time. I think antidepressants can be great
for many people and at different times, but for me,
I think the doctor completely missed that I was entering
into perimenopause. I think I had three or four years
(12:45):
of really difficult mental problems and sleep problems, and then
I reckon, I had about two years of hot flushes.
But then I went on medication and that just completely
controlled it. So some people that you know, they breathe
through that. You know, they don't even really notice. Other
people they get noticeable symptoms like crazy periods, hot slashes,
(13:10):
you know, sneaky weing, and that might depending on whether
they tackle that with medication, and you know what their
own philosophy is. I mean, one woman in the survey
pat said to me that she was in her eighties
and still getting hot slushes.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Yeah, people have one for.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
More than a decade, more than twelve years, more than
fifteen years, and have not been well served, you know,
by their medical professionals. Some doctors are great, and there's
that's why there's stuff in the book about you know,
what to ask your doctor, how to find a good doctor.
For me, that's what made the difference is doing all
this research and finding out what I was going through
(13:49):
and why. I mean, I was so relieved when I
found out that my crazy itchiness, you know, had a
physical hormonal reason because I just really did a lot
of women talk about thinking that they've hit early dementia.
A lot of women are quitting their job. I mean,
for me, I did have a period when I didn't
know what was happening where I thought, oh I can't
(14:11):
be a writer anymore. I can't remember words. I'm confused about,
you know, keeping track of my research. And thankfully I
then understood that it was temporary and there was medication
I could take for it. They think so many women
suffer in silence.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Were you on HRT.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
I'm still on MHT, which is the new name for HRT.
Used to be called hormone or replacement therapy, and now
doctors want us to call it menopause or hormone therapy,
right And I'm still on it, and I'm on it
partly to protect my bones and to lower my risk
of heart designs. I'm in menopause, that is, you know,
for the rest of my life.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
So is that like a patch cat.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
I used gel for the estrogen. I use an oral
tablet for progesterone because you've got to take progesterone if
you still have a uterus and you're taking estrogen. Some
of this is quite complex, but in a way, it's
just simple, if you know. And that's what I've written
it down all in one place.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I'm not taking any thing, and I'm not saying that
to say anihero, that's not at all. But I'm not
even taking vitamins or minerals, which is not a good thing.
I should be taking something, but it's because I don't
know what's out there.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
A lot of vitamins are completely unnecessary if you have
a reasonable diet. You only need to take supplements if
you've got a deficiency, so that that involves going to
a good GP, getting tested, seeing what your vitamin D
levels are, and having a bone test if you've started perimenopause,
having a bone density test. This is all in the book.
(15:42):
These are all the things you can do to protect yourself.
If you don't have symptoms that are driving you nuts
that MHT would help, then no point in taking MHT.
It's not an automatic thing, it's not the devil, and
it's not a cure all. So you've got to look
at the symptom that you have, if any, and deal
with what can help you with those. It's kind of
(16:04):
common sense. It's a bit like I say, here's the
buffet of things that you can choose from bus I
do sweep a whole bunch of crockery off one end
of the buffet laible and say ignore this stuff because
there's no evidence for it, and this is just people
trying it that thing.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
It's like a platter, You've laid it out and it's
I guess it's for each woman to try what works
for them, because what works for you may not necessarily
work for someone else.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Well, we know that MHT, which used to be called HRT,
is a great frontline treatment for several of the symptoms,
and it's really reliable and it will help. We know
that exercise is really great. We know that trying to
do something to deal with stress really helps hot flushes
and other things. So there is this mix of self
(16:53):
help and medication if you can take it. There are
also alternative medications to take. If you have a history
of breast cancer or endemetrial cancer and you've been advised
not to take MHT, you can still probably take and
in vagina cream which will help with the driver gina
symptoms and will also help with those wiing symptoms. So
(17:16):
it's just a matter of all this information that women
haven't been given in the past, and we need that
base left. I mean, it's such a cliche, right, Pats,
But knowledge is power. If you can go to the
GP knowing which symptoms you might have and you get
a bad GP who says, oh, you just have to
put up with it, or oh you're too young. You're
too young in your forties to be having these symptoms.
(17:38):
That's a GP that you either need to get educated
fast or you need to.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Go to another dog signed another GPS, and a good GP.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Is absolute gold in helping me through this. And women
said in the survey they really love the GPS who
listen to them and help them. A lot of us
go through it feeling alone. Yeah, and we were actually
fifty perth of the population who will experience this.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
That's what I mean. I'm so flabbagasted that there's not
not enough talk because it affects so many women across
the world, I.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Know, and there's still such a stigma, like two point
five million Australians yes, are either in menopause or approaching
the perimenopause, which just means all the symptoms around and
leading up to menopause. And I'm hearing men saying, oh,
no one's really interested in some men saying no one's
really interested in this, or this is a bit embarrassing,
(18:31):
or someone actually said to me live in an TV interview,
Oh but you wouldn't give it to someone as a present.
Why not, it's not why not to say, guys, like,
every other woman in the world will go through menopause
and here's a fun book with cartoons and evans faced information.
I was so indignant. I was like, oh my god,
(18:52):
this is what we're fighting against, you know, this idea.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Yeah, we need to change the narrative and normalize it
because it's a perfectly normal stage of life. Yeah, was
it three years? It took you to write the book.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
About three and a half years to solidly research and
write it. And I'm so in awe of all the
fabulous experts, many of them women, that Australia has now
doing research in psychiatric areas of what menopause does to
mental health, all the studies that many professors who are
(19:29):
experts in the area are trying to do now about
different hormones and the effect that they have. But we
are so behind the eight ball with research.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
And like we say, women are so in such a
desperate period of their lives as well, Like some days
you feel really rancid and you're just desperate for some
sort of relief from the hot flushes, from the exhaustion.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah, and that's the difficulty too, because when hormones are erratic,
which is exactly what happens to perimenopause. You can feel
a certain thing one day and then it suddenly goes
by half past three. You don't get it next Tuesday,
but then it's back next Thursday, and then nothing happens
for two months, and it's so bizarre, so confusing. Yeah, yeah,
(20:13):
that's actually really characterizic.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
You do actually feel like I don't know how you felt,
but I actually feel it. Sometimes I think I actually
I'm going a bit batty, like I'm going crazy.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Absolutely, so many women said they thought they were having
early dementia, and you know, in the survey, so many
things came up in the survey and the quotes that
are in the book that I didn't expect, and you know, oh,
I've just lost my train of thought. We're going to
say it's brain frog again, going to say no, it's gone, no.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Good, No, haven't got it?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Oh sorry, Pat, Now I don't apologize.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
It's it is complete. I get it all the time.
I had doctor Sarah, and here I go, I can't
think of a surname now from jeen Hale's foundation.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
It's hilarious.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
I was saying to her, how on air. You know,
it's this whole imposter syndrome that you go through waves of.
But I'll be talking to Christian and Jack and I'll
be on a train of thought and then all of
a sudden, it's like someone just rips the rug out
from under me. And I feel like such a twat
on air because I've got no idea, like I think,
oh my god, Like if you're in an office environment,
(21:25):
you can probably get away with it, but when you're
on air, you must look like.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
A It happens to me in interviews sometimes too. And
that I was going to say that women do feel
like they're going mad. One of the things that women said,
and I didn't expect this. Women use the phrase not myself,
I don't feel myself. I don't know who I am.
I've lost myself, And I think that is talking about
(21:52):
those mental changes and understanding that there's a hormonal reason
for them, even if you don't get treatment, can be
so comforting. Understanding that other women are going through it.
Because that's the bit that I had no idea was
a perimenopausal sympathy.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Yeah, I think we need to be honest and I
think we need to get real and I think we
need to remove the shame that seems to be around
perimenopause and menopause and it's not a negative thing. And
you're right, we need to support one another, both men
and women. You know, support your partner.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
We don't have to pretend that we're all pert everything.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
At the end of the day and we're all going
through it, and we need to build this village and
support one another.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yeap, totally agree. I just think it's time that women
got the information in their hands. Yeah, and we just
stop pretending that we're super women who can go through
all these stages of our lives and pretend that it's
not affecting us. I don't think it does women any
And I saw a commentator the other day. I was
(23:03):
really shocked that it was a woman saying, Oh, we
should stop all this talk about menopause women. It's going
to make women get sacked and it's going to prove
that women are no good in the work in the workplace,
and I thought you completely got the wrong end of
the stick. You know, every workplace needs to be flexible
enough to help people, whether they're going through a menopause
(23:25):
or they're a bloke who's got medical issues, or someone
needs to pick up their kids from work. Every workplace
needs to be kinder to its employees. We all need
to support each other. I'm sounding like I'm mad hippie now,
but this idea of that not at all. That we're
cruel to people if they need a little help. I
(23:46):
just don't think that's the way the world should go anymore.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
I think just because you're a woman, and just because
you get periods and can birth a baby and will
eventually go through pery and menopause, just because you get
it because you're a woman, I don't feel that that
should be discounted. It should be recognized just like every
other medical condition in the workplace. It should be no different.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Yeah, and I also think it makes women have a
better understanding of other people, a breadth of experience. Women
are brave, Women have a higher pain threshold. They are
going through all these things, and yet they're holding down
jobs and making sure that they're doing all the emotional
labor at home, and they should be commended for it.
(24:34):
You know, there's this I mean, I'm just not interested
in pretending that perfect is normal. Perfect is impossible. You know,
women have got to stop thinking they need to be
perfect at what they look like, what they do, how
they conduct themselves in life. We've been amazing for decades
in our family, in our work, and it's time that
(24:56):
we gave ourselves a little pad on the back and
understood that we help each other through. Menopause is something
that you experience and you go through and you get
to the other side, and like the last chapter of
my book says, you know, this is the rest of
your life with more freedom, more confidence and this. Everybody
(25:16):
talked in the survey about how important their women friends
were and I just thought that was a lovely thing
to celebrate as well.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Tell me I have one question in closing, Will I
feel normal again?
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Yes, you will get yourself based, you'll be yourself again,
and in fact it will be better. You will have
more confidence, you will understand your body better if you
make yourself aware of all this stuff. And honestly, there
was just so much optimism that women shared and they
(25:51):
all talked about freedom, a mental and physical freedom. Getting
to the other side.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Oh, I love it. Sounds like nirvana to me as.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Something to look forward to.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Award winning author kas Cook talking about her Lady's book
It's the Menopause through Penguin Books. I highly recommend it.
Our Menopause Journey Next takes us to what will feel
like you evesdropping on two best friends at your local cafe,
because that's exactly what it is. I catch up with
one of my dearest friends, journalist, radio and TV presenter
(26:26):
and podcaster Sarah Patterson, or Beryl as I affectionately call her.
We've known each other since we were teenagers, and well,
I promised to frank chat. And that's exactly what it is,
as kindred spirits navigate this crazy thing we call menopause.
I'm Petrina Jones.
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