August 28, 2024 • 34 mins
Grace Molloy is one of those inspirational women who saw a shortfall in workplaces and did something about it! Pats speaks to the Menopause Friendly Australia CEO, off the back of her submission to the Senate Inquiry into Menopause.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Betrina Jones and this is my new podcast, Rage
Against the Menopause. My next guest likens menopause in the
Workplace to what support for mental health was fifteen years ago,
way behind the times and with a lot of catching
up to do. Grace malloy is a co founder of
Menopause Friendly Australia and has spoken at the Senate Inquiry
(00:22):
into menopause. The former nurse was so tired of seeing
businesses lose experience leaders early because of the symptoms that
she formed MFA, the only independent accreditation for menopause at work.
Some of its members include BHP and City of Melbourne.
I hope you find episode seven, I'm in My Power
(00:44):
Now empowering. A common theme in all the episodes that
we've been doing so far on Rage Against the Menopause
is menopause in the workplace and the massive impact that
it's having, which is why I'm very excited to introduce
my next guest, Grace molloy. Grace is co founder CEO
(01:05):
of Menopause Friendly Australia.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Grace, what is it you can tell us about your organization?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Thanks for having me and I'm so glad that we're
talking about menopause in the workplace. That's why my organization
Menopause Friendly Australia exists. Last year I was looking around
for some support in the workplace and really realize that
actually no one in Australia is talking about menopause in
the workplace, but often overseas we're seeing that many workplaces
have been talking about it. So what we've done is
(01:33):
taken some of the best strategies that we've seen other
workplaces do in the UK and we've brought them here
to Australia to help employers here open up the conversation
so that menopause isn't a reason why people are leaving
work early.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yeah, because the statistics are really really alarming. So three
in four women say symptoms impact daily life. This is
our stats from the Institute of Superinnuation Trust. One in
four reports severe symptoms. Twenty five percent actually consider quitting work.
(02:09):
So we've got one hundred and sixty thousand dozye women
a year who are starting on their menopause journey. As
a direct result of menopause, about twenty thousand women will
at some point move to part time. Half of those
ten thousand would leave work and return later four thousand
actually retire altogether, but that figure twenty five percent consider
(02:32):
leaving work. I know myself there are times where I've thought,
I actually don't.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Know how much longer I can.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Do this with hope of getting to the end line,
to the finish line, and knowing that I'm not going
to feel like this all the time. But obviously what
is happening with women in the UK all around the
world is happening here as well.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
It's like a mirrored.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Effect, absolutely, and I always hear stories exactly of this
that I think, actually I need to step away from work.
I think it's really difficult for women also to understand
how much of what I'm experiencing is menopause, how much
of it is just life, how much it is stress
from my workplace. So it can be confusing, and many
(03:18):
people ask us how can I decipher this and what
strategies can I put in place, because we don't have
the knowledge and the information. So really what we want
to do is educate women and say it's really normal
to feel more stressed and anxious during perimenopause and menopause
because the hormones are changing in your brain, and that
(03:39):
means that you do have a heightened sense of stress
and anxiety, but there's things that you can do to
practically make that better. Unfortunately, we don't have a lot
of research, and some of those stats that you equoted
there are from surveys and from overseas, so we'd love
to see more research and what the economic impact is.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
We're barely the surface.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
There was an article in the finn Review which she
showed me which was really interesting. It gave the example
of a woman who had, like most of us, built
up her career over decades, got you know, to the
upper echelon of what she was doing, and suddenly menopause
hit and it's like, I actually think I have to leave.
And it's so she's left early after you know, gaining
(04:22):
a really noble place in her industry. It's probably cost
to like sixty seventy grand it lost super Are you
seeing a lot of this right across the board?
Speaker 4 (04:31):
Absolutely? And that is what we want to change, you know,
we want people to not feel as they have to leave.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
If you look at Vicki's story, you know, she says,
once I got the support that I needed, I actually
feel like I can work again, and I do want
to work. So isn't it tragic that we've got people
leaving when there are things we can do about it?
And for most people, you know, you said three and
four people will experience symptoms of menopause one in four
or severe. So if you think about it, most people
(04:59):
will just need to be to come into work and say,
I'm having a bit of.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
A day to day.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
I haven't slept well last night, I'm feeling really stressed
and anxious today. You know, can I maybe defer doing
this task today till another day when I'm feeling really
on my game.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
But right now, women.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Fear that they fear that if they say it's menopause
or perimenopause related, that they won't be met with empathy
and understanding and that they won't be given those opportunities
to have flexible work. So I think it's really important
that we do start opening the conversation and we also
start putting some frameworks in workplaces so that the people
(05:38):
that they're going to for that help have the knowledge
of what menopause is, how it might impact people, and
that they know within their workplace how to support that
person with flexibility or potentially with leave if that's what
is needed.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
It's rooted at a deeper issue, though, isn't it. Why
is women? Do we feel that we can't approach our
employer and say, you know, I think it has a
lot to do with the decades long experience we build
ourselves up. Why are we so apprehensive to say, hey,
I need support and it's because of peri or minopause.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
Well, we don't value aging very well here, do we.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
I mean, is it a gender issue?
Speaker 3 (06:18):
I think we've got a long way to go. And
you know, if we look at some cultures around menopause
where people where aging's revered, you know, there is some
discussion about whether menopause symptoms are actually a lot less
prevalent in those societies where aging is actually valued. I
(06:38):
think we've definitely, in the workplace, got a long way
to go. And agism is something that workplaces understand they
have to tackle. We've got an aging population. We will
see people working for longer. We will need to have
people working for longer because we have, you know, productivity
demands in this country. So workplaces are starting to address it,
(06:58):
but we've got a long way to god and sadly,
many people who leave the workforce during menopause, get the
right support and help, and then feel so they want
to get back into the worst.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
And it's very difficult. I just think it's such.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
A shame to have got to that point and then
to leave and you obviously haven't been supported, do you
know what I mean? Like, And it's such a huge
loss for industry as well, because you're losing all these
skilled workers that really are irreplaceable.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
I mean, if you think about a middle aged woman
in a workplace who just wants to get things done. Yeah,
we're pretty you know, we're pretty productive, and we.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Are well, we're spinning several different plates where parents, we're carers,
we're doing all these different things.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
We can multitask. I think we've got that down, Pat.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Tell me, so what can workplaces do? What would you
recommend if you could make an appeal to workplaces now,
what do they need to do to be leading in
that field and to keep these skilled work and support
women and families really that are going through a hormonal change.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
I would say to workplaces that menopause is like mental
health fifteen years ago, where we knew we needed to
have a conversation about it at work, but we weren't
really sure how to do that. Now we see that
it's a commonplace to have support for mental health within
our workplaces. We have mental health first atas so looking
at the same way that we opened up that conversation
(08:25):
and using that to open up a conversation about menopause.
I think the first thing a workplace can do is
speak to the people within within their workplace and ask
them how much do you know about menopause? Are you
experiencing symptoms, how are they impacting you in our workplace?
And specifically getting those senior leaders to come out and
talk about menopause. You know, we heard we saw Image
(08:48):
and Crump on the TV toos. You know, she called
out hot flush. So for senior leaders, if you're having
a moment, you know, calling it out and making it
a conversation that's welcome and okay in the workplace.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Yeah, Removing the taboo and the stigma I think is
at a good step absolutely, And I think, you know,
training is really important and just giving people the knowledge
of what it is, because we still see stats coming
out about how little we actually know ourselves about something
that's going to happen to all of us born with oaries.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
So I think, you know, it's a really great way
to open up a conversation. And what we've seen from
workplaces that that have been accredited by menopause Friendly in
the UK is that the employee engagement that comes from
it is fantastic and women say, I'm really grateful that
my employer has actually given me this really practical knowledge
(09:38):
to help me not only at work, but also in
my life and with my health.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
And that's the thing.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
If you feel supported at work, it's going to make
all of your life easier, to be honest, isn't it.
With the workplace, my vision, my dream is that we
talk obviously and have a lot of systems in place
for pay peridittal leave and for maternity leave. Wouldn't it
be great if we had a one day where that
was the same for menopause.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
It's just common sense to me.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Yeah, it is a question. I'm being asked a lot
is around policies and leave particularly so obviously, as someone
born with ovaries, you're going to have reproductive health needs, fertility,
you know, if you think about being a parent, but
also things like endometriosis, pcos menopause, so you know, there's
(10:30):
many people saying, well, actually, because we are born with
reproductive organs like this, it means that we are going
to need extra time off. Correct, I'm going to need
to go to appointments. We need to have that time
to go and you know, seek that care. So many
employers are looking at providing leave, but.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
In addition to current entitlements.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
In addition to current entitlements, that's right. So in Victoria,
the public sector are actually currently looking at providing five
days leave menopause, menstruation, and reproductive therapy. I would say,
though leave's not the most important thing. The most important
thing is for women to be able to just come
into work say that I'm having a day and be
(11:13):
able to know that that conversation is not going to
lead to stigma.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Yes, yeah, or you know, their chance of promotion or
their stance in the workplace.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
I was talking to a woman the other day who's
a lawyer, and she said she had been very open
about her perimenopause journey. She spoke to her employer and said, look,
I'm going through perimenopause. I'm finding that I'm not sleeping,
and I've got this brain fog, and I've got other
things like heavy menstrual periods happening that you know, she
was really brave spoke to her male employer about it
without them having opened the conversation, and she said she
(11:46):
did have to take some extra leaf, which was her
sick leaf. She took her sick leaf to go to
an appointment to see a doctor and to help you know,
her feel better so that she could, you know, stay
at work. And she said her employer was very supportive
and they said absolutely. But then when it came time
for her performance review, her manager said, well, you have
taken a lot of extra leave days and we know
(12:07):
that you've found it difficult. And she said to our employer,
but this is my performance review, So what's my performance
made to do with my medical condition?
Speaker 4 (12:15):
Right?
Speaker 3 (12:16):
And so you know, but she did say, you know,
what was my performance and they said, look, your performance
has been fantastic. And so I think we really need
to understand how to separate that you performance versus needing
time out of the workforce, because as you and I know,
if you take time off and you feel better, you're
going to be able to perform a lot more than
if you stay sitting at your desk not getting that help,
(12:38):
not taking that time off continuing to struggle on and
then you know that's where your performance is impacted.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
This is the thing, and I think this is why
women are reluctant to talk.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
I did IVF at work as well, and hit it
from my employer for a couple of years. And then
when I did announce that I was pregnant, my manager
gave me a packet of condoms for the secret center,
which was a big blow.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
So, look, we do.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Have a lot of way to go, but staying silent
is not the answer. Keeping hiding what we're going through.
This is a normal, natural thing that every single person
who's born with ovaries will go through, and there are
symptoms that we need to address. But so we do
need to open the conversation in a really informative way
(13:26):
that really shows workplaces that this can be a way
that you can stand out from the crowd. Yeah, you
can attract really talented women and.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Lead the way.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
What Ozsie employers Grace are leading the way with menopause leave.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
We're seeing people from across different industry groups. So employers
like BHP, which is a big mining company in Anglo
goldas Shanty really leading the way in their Industry Accentia.
We're one of the first members. They're an organization who's
accredited in the UK. But even you know, all different
industry groups, not for profits like cares WA. We're seeing
(14:03):
all ambulance services, also manufacturers of food. So people who
employ lots of different diverse people from different backgrounds really
seeing that if they start opening the conversation now, they
can really improve the working conditions for women through menopause
and that has a great business impact for them.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
It's only positive, isn't it productivity? Maintaining stuff skilled staff.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
It costs fifty five thousand dollars on average if someone
goes on a stress related workplace injury. So if you
think about somebody going feeling that they can't cope at
work and they might not even know that their hormones
could be the reason as well. So if you think
about those people giving them the right support, education, allowing
(14:53):
them to get the right care that they need and
then not take that time out of the workforce on
stress related injury claims. But also it's one hundred and
fifty percent of someone's salary to replace them. Yeah, so
the cost of turnover to businesses is huge and unemployment
in Australia is still really low. We are still fighting
to get talented people to work for us, So employees
(15:14):
that realize that they have to step up and they
have to show that they are a great place to work,
to attract and retain talented women and to change some
of those horrible statistics around our gender pay gap, which
is twenty one point seven percent quite embarrassing.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Actually, yeah, tell us about the Federal Senate inquiry.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
What do we hope will come out of that?
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Just the fact we're having it is a good first
step absolutely. I mean, do you think five years ago
we would have had a Senate inquiry into metopause? I think,
you know, that just shows having more people who lived
experience in parliament really helps to bring these things into
the fore. So I'm really excited about the Senate inquiry
and reading some of the submissions of people who have
(15:58):
submitted anonymously. Don't read them too close to bed, you know,
it's really die always hearing some horrible stories of people
really struggling. So I hope the outcomes from the Center
inquiry will be renewed focus on training for doctors. So
right now there's not great education and training for our GPS.
So people often are going to see their doctor and
(16:19):
they're being dismissed or their doctor doesn't understand how to
help support them through their symptoms. So that's a really
important outcome that I hope to see from the inquiry.
From a workplace perspective, you know, we really flesh out
where the gaps are for employment of women in this
life phase and where some additional protections could.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
Be brought in.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
So some of the unions are looking at, well, could
we make menopause a protected right under the Respected Work
Act so that there's actually a protection for people that
you cannot be discriminated on based on your menopausal status.
Others are looking at whether or not there needs to
be leave entitlements. So really what we want to do
is across all the different aspects of menopause and not
(17:04):
only in the workplace, but also looking at how it
impacts our First Nations population, our cold communities, you know,
LGBTQI plus a community who find extremely difficult to get
support and help during this life phase. So I'm really
confident that it will shine a spotlight. As we've all
said inquiries, you know, it's really key that then the
(17:26):
handing down off the reports and flows through interchange. Yes,
but right now, what I'm saying is that the spotlight
means that people are talking about it, that workplaces are
looking at what they can do, and that women are
asking for more. You know, they're saying, I've fed up,
this is not good enough. I deserve better, and I
really want to know what I can do to stay
(17:46):
healthy through this time of life and feel like I
can still thrive in all aspects.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
It's almost like there needs to be a designated minister,
so not just a women's affairs minister, but someone that
someone that can oversee the recommendations and actually make positive change.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
So it'll be interesting to see what comes out of it.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
It's interesting you mentioned that because in the UK they
had a parliamentary inquiry a couple of years ago. One
of the outcomes of that was that the government nominated
a menopause in the workplace government champion. That is a
volunteer position that that person's not paid to do or
provided things. But what we've see naturally has been the
(18:29):
biggest outcome, The biggest driver of change is really getting
to women where they are, and that's in the workplace.
You know, When I first started learning about perimenopause, I
was in my late thirties. I had an obstetrician father.
My mom is a midwife, Oh wow. And I did
the Masters of Nursing, Oh wow. And I still had
no idea about menopause.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
See here you go.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
So really, I think we need to almost have an intervention,
don't we, you know, just to say to women, this
is going to happen to you. Here's the facts. You know,
it's not all bad. You can also have, you know,
a really empowering time through this. It can be an
opportunity to really refocus and focus on what you want
to bring forward into your life and what you want
(19:12):
to leave behind. You know, because you get to that
point of life where you think, I'm not gonna think
it was fifty.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
It was fifty for me where I thought, you know,
I don't care so much what people think. You grow
into your skin a bit, you feel a bit more
comfortable in your own skin.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
I think someone said to me the other day, you
know the world should fear a fifty year old woman
who just doesn't give us stuff anymore.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
I didn't say stuff.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
That's so true, though, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
But I mean, I don't think we should fear fear
fifty old women who don't give U stuff anymore.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
We should be empowering.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
You know Where's fear got us to this point. Fear
to speak up in the workplace, fear to get to
say anything, and it's not getting us anywhere.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
So we need to change our tact moving forward.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
It's time absolutely and let's celebrate how amazing women are
in all stages of life. And I think really what
we can hopefully say from this parliamentary inquiry as well
is women stepping up and saying, yeah, I didn't have
a great time through menopause, but I'm out the other
side now and I feel better than I ever have before.
I know who I am as a person, I know
(20:12):
what I want to do, and I've shared a lot.
Speaker 4 (20:14):
Of that worry.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
I've stopped really looking at all of the small things
and I'm really feeling as so I'm in my power
now where I can really make an impact, and so
those stories are really important to share as well.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Part of our role, I think too, is leaving a
legacy for other women. The buck stops with us. We
are in charge of this situation. We need to lead
the way for change.
Speaker 4 (20:38):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
I've got two daughters as well, they're nine and eleven.
They know a lot about menopause, obviously a lot more
than their friends.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
But that's the point.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
You know, they know more about menopause because if me
but their friends wouldn't. Why do when we educate kids
about periods do we cut the conversation short, We don't
talk about and then you know your periods will stop,
but it won't be abrupt, It'll be gradual, and holmines
will change over time, and you might have symptoms that
are difficult to deal with, but there's help available and
(21:10):
you can get through it. And then on the other side,
you have a lot more living to be done. And
I think particularly as well is some of the longer
term health risks associated with going through menopause early.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
People don't know about that.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
And women are going through it early, like early forties,
you hear now even late late thirties, whereas perhaps we
had this sort of perception that it happened to our grandmothers,
but it's actually probably really not the case. It's kind
of more like a midlife sort of crisis we're going through.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
In synetics.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Yeah, I mean, I can't tell you the number of
women that are in my I'm forty one, and you know,
women in the late thirties and early forties and say, oh,
I'm not in menopause yet. And I say, well, how
do you know? And they said, I'm still getting my period,
you know, I say, well, actually, you know, menopause is
a one day event and on average occurs between forty
five and fifty five. But perimenopause, that time leading up
(22:07):
when we're having the roughest right, that can last ten years.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
I know.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
So if you think about somebody conceivably on average, can
go through menopause at forty five, ten years earliest.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
Thirty five.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Yeah, I reckon. I was thirty eight thirty nine after
I had Audrey. I could feel my body change, and
I used to When I look back now, I think
it was the start of like that hot flush time
where it was just at the back of my neck
and then it sort of grew more extensive. But now
I look back, I think, yeah, that was probably at
the time like about thirty nine for me.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
And what I want is women to not look back,
you know, not to have to look back and say, oh,
it was perimenopause. You know, to have that knowledge and
information when we're going through it, and a lot of
what we see is that actually just by talking about
it with others that are experiencing it, that.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
Can make us feel so much better, one.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Hundred percent better.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
A lot of women say they feel that they're going
through early dementia, that they're having a nervous broke down.
I feel like that at times where I have so
much trouble remembering stuff and I think, you know, there's
dementia in my family, and I think, oh my god, like.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Lighting on the wall for me, Like it's something.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
I mean, anyone who's experienced brain fog you do, because
it can come on really suddenly as well, and it
could be mead sentence and all of a sudden, what
you're talking about drops out of your head. And you
think about that in the workplace, if you're presenting to
a board and you've got your slides up and your.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
On radio, Absolutely, and.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
You're just the words, it's like a rug getting ripped
out from unto you. Yeah, and it's just so isolating.
It's like, oh my god, what's going on with my head?
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Absolutely, And I mean there are some great researchers here
in Victoria actually at the her Center, who are about
to release a fact sheet about brain fog to help
people understand is it normal what I'm experiencing or is
it early on set dementia?
Speaker 4 (23:59):
Do I need to go and seek real help for this?
Speaker 3 (24:01):
And I think that's really important too, is that if
you're experiencing brain fog and it's affecting your life, affecting
your abilities to work, you know, affecting your relationships because
your kids are saying I've already told you that four
times a month, then go and talk to somebody about it.
Because there are things we can do, medical and non
medical that can help make brain fog better. And in
(24:25):
the workplace, you know, putting in place and strategy, so
not having conversations off the cuff with your manager in
the corridor when you know that you're going to forget
exactly what he asked you to do or she asked
you to do in the corridor, you know, sitting down
and having a meeting where you can write notes.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
I take so many notes.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Yeah, same.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
The number of lists I have is ridiculous, and old
school lists where I have to physically.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Write it on paper. I seem to forget to remember
it easier.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
But you know what, all of the experience that you
have in your role and in your life is still there,
all of your capability and knowledge or their closed door.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
It's just a bit, it's just very good webs.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
But and that is really important to have that conversation
because that will give women confidence to say, it's brain fog.
I've got some strategy in place now, I'm still capable,
i can still do my job. I've still got this.
And that conversation needs to happen in workplaces and employers
can educate their people, leaders and their managers around what
(25:25):
to do. Somebody is experiencing that because right now managers
are saying someone's coming to me.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
They're saying they've got brain fog. I don't know what.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're not armed with information. If there's
employers listening, workers listening and want to get in touch
with you, what is the best way for them to
reach out.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Sure, they can download our free Menopause Friendly Checklist off
of our website, which will give them some great some
tips and strategies to start thinking about how menopause friendly
they are at the moment.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
So that's for employers.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
We also have a LinkedIn page that they can connect
with us, and we share lots of different information and
research for individuals. I would say, if you are feeling
like your symptoms of menopause are impacting you at work
and you want to talk to someone and you don't
know where to start, have a look on your internet
and look around your organization if there are policies, if
(26:20):
there is support existing that you might be able to utilize.
If there's not, write down your symptoms, keep tracking your
symptoms and thinking about how they're impacting.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
You at work.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
Find someone within your within your workplace that you do
trust or that you want to talk to about it,
and then focus the conversation at work around what the
workplace can do to help get the support that you
need outside the workplace for your health concerns. And you know,
you can start managing symptoms with your GP and really
focusing that on a really constructive conversation in the workplace,
(26:52):
because that then shows that you are taking action to
support yourself. You know exactly what it is that you
need at work, and you're coming to your lawyer saying, look,
this is something that could really help, and often those
strategies already exist, flexible working policies. You know that they're
you know, we're all working from home now. But often
many women say the number one thing is just knowing
(27:14):
that somebody at web knows what I'm going through and
so if I'm having a day, I can call them
and say, look, I'm having a day.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
And it's not just in your head, no, I mean
and suffering in silence is a big thing.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
Yeah, And this is when we run our training courses
aiming workplaces, we're inundated with women saying, first of all,
I had no idea how much of this of what
I'm going through is normal. And now that I know,
I feel less alone, you know, And I think that
is there's so much power in that because women are
(27:48):
feeling really alone, they're feeling as though they may is
it this is it that we're you know, we get
dismissed sometimes when we go and ask for help, So
it leaves us with even more lack of confidence, guilt,
feel like we're letting people down, correct, don't we? And
it's not fair because you know we've got to this
point and when you've had children as well, and you
(28:08):
know you've had to take time out of work to
look after your kids, and you're joined the juggle and
your kids are in daycare and they're sick all the time,
and you feel like you're just not able to really
contribute focus at work. And then when you finally feel
like your kids are at school and you've got a
handle on things, and you think, oh, I can really
get back into a meaty meeting role. Now I feel
like to put myself first after these years, exactly, and
(28:33):
so we want to harness that. But many women then say,
but then PERI, menopause just came and snacked me in
the face, and I feel like it's not fair.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
Yeah, I felt ripped off.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
I actually felt ripped off after going through indometriosis and
polycystic and then I had the cancer.
Speaker 4 (28:50):
You've been through it so much.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Oh well, probably a lot of people have.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
But I got to that point and I thought, seriously, like,
now I'm my periods have kind of finished, and it's like,
now I have Are you serious? Now I have to
go through this? Like I didn't sign up for this,
Like come on.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
And that's what it can feel like in the workplace, too,
like I've just had enough, and it's easy to blame
work when I stressed and say it must be my
work that's making me feel this way. What about when
you went through your cancer treatment, did anyone talk to
you about how that would impact you in terms of menopause.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
I had a renal in afrectomy, so I had my
left kidney out and then I had my right overtaken,
which wasn't I have to say, it wasn't related to
the kidney cares or I just had assist there that
had been there for a very long time and it
was starting to change compositions.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
So they thought, you know what, I think we'll get
that out.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
And my surgeon said that might speed up your menopause process.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Which it did.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
So I was already perimenopausal on that stage, but I
was still getting a period, but a bit hickuity pickity.
I had so much trouble, so much trouble getting diagnosed
with ENDO in the first place. I had an elderly
gynecologist and I said to I was probably in my
early twenties, and I said to him, do you think
it's possitive because you don't know your period compared to
(30:13):
someone else. You're like, I've got a very high pain threshold.
I knew that, but I didn't know if what I
was having was normal, this crippling paint. And I said
to him, is it possible. I've heard of this thing
called endometriosis. Is it possible I could have that? He
rolled his eyes into the back of his head. So
you know what that gave me a feeling of, oh well,
(30:33):
I'm being eurotic, like that's just ridiculous. So I just
shoved it in a cupboard away. And then it wasn't
until it took us five years to conceive our daughter,
and when literally on the day I had her, I
had a cesarean section, and I had a wonderful obstetrician,
Lionel Steinberg vaginal Lionel, who speaking of that cyst, said
(30:57):
when I'm in there, I might get that cyst, which
he didn't end up because it looked fine, but he said,
I can see why you've you definitely have endometriosis. Your
fallopian tube on the right side is wrapped around your
bow like a tree.
Speaker 4 (31:10):
Stuff.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
I'm not going near that. That's a major surgery.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
But you know what it was, it was I just
felt my body like relax because I felt vindicated, like
I didn't feel like an idiot, like that other surgeon
made me feel for feeling eurotic and it was all
in my head. So I had quite a battle just
to get and I was thirty nine at that point,
and I started my periods at what fourteen?
Speaker 2 (31:34):
So I went all that time.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
And hopefully now, I mean, we're seeing a lot more
funding for demetro so it has been a great education.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
In the federal budget, they announced funding. I think it's
finally time. And I'm hoping the same can happen for
minnopause too. I hope to see that as well.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
And I think, you know, for anyone out there, it's
hard to know if what you're experiencing is normal. And
I had this conversation with someone about heavy menstrual bleeding
because ninety percent of women will have at least one
heavy flooding period during their perimenopause and menopause journey. But
we don't actually ever know how much is normal because
we're you're really on ec ours, right, So.
Speaker 4 (32:10):
That's right, you think, is this normal? Is it not normal?
Same with pain.
Speaker 3 (32:13):
You know, we put up with so many things because
we think we just should when they're actually our answers
to what we're going through, but it's finding the right doctor.
As he said, you know, you call out to the
right amazing gynecologist. Again, that can be really challenging for people,
particularly in rule and remote areas.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
The excesses into a gynecologist can take months in regional.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
Areas absolutely, and that's I think why it's important that
a public awareness campaign, you know, really would be fantastic,
and I hope that the government do look at that,
at running a public awareness campaign around perimenopause and menopause.
You know, there's got to be some health economics in
it if you think about women looking after their bone health,
their heart health, looking after our diet, BET's health, you know,
(33:01):
So staying well through midlife is really what perimenopause or
health is about, is going to have a better impact
on our long term health as well. So I think
it's vital that we talk about it more. We're starting
in the workplace because we know that's where women are
and we know that there are really significant benefits for
the workplace as well.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
So I hope the.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
Government will continue that by doing something around public awareness
too for everyone.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Well, congratulations, I think you're doing an amazing job and
I think you're being a trailblazer in.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
All of this.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
Oh, thank you. I don't feel like a trailblazer. I'm
just saying it how it is, so hopefully others will
join me.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
No, but it's important. I think that's what we need
to do. We need to talk about it.
Speaker 4 (33:42):
So thank you, Grace, Thank you, lovely to meet.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
You, Grace molloy, CEO of Minopause Friendly Australia. For more information,
you can head to their website or email hello at
Menopausefriendly dot com dot au. My next guest is someone
I grew up watching on Catwalks National TV, who, when
she found out I was having a launch party the
(34:04):
Rage Against the Menopause, got in touch, eager to meet
me and offer up her lived experience. Nikki Buckley features
in episode eight, going by the beat of her own drum,
I'm Petrina Jones.
I'm Betrina Jones and this is my new podcast, Rage
Against the Menopause. My next guest likens menopause in the
Workplace to what support for mental health was fifteen years ago,
way behind the times and with a lot of catching
up to do. Grace malloy is a co founder of
Menopause Friendly Australia and has spoken at the Senate Inquiry
(00:22):
into menopause. The former nurse was so tired of seeing
businesses lose experience leaders early because of the symptoms that
she formed MFA, the only independent accreditation for menopause at work.
Some of its members include BHP and City of Melbourne.
I hope you find episode seven, I'm in My Power
(00:44):
Now empowering. A common theme in all the episodes that
we've been doing so far on Rage Against the Menopause
is menopause in the workplace and the massive impact that
it's having, which is why I'm very excited to introduce
my next guest, Grace molloy. Grace is co founder CEO
(01:05):
of Menopause Friendly Australia.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Grace, what is it you can tell us about your organization?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Thanks for having me and I'm so glad that we're
talking about menopause in the workplace. That's why my organization
Menopause Friendly Australia exists. Last year I was looking around
for some support in the workplace and really realize that
actually no one in Australia is talking about menopause in
the workplace, but often overseas we're seeing that many workplaces
have been talking about it. So what we've done is
(01:33):
taken some of the best strategies that we've seen other
workplaces do in the UK and we've brought them here
to Australia to help employers here open up the conversation
so that menopause isn't a reason why people are leaving
work early.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yeah, because the statistics are really really alarming. So three
in four women say symptoms impact daily life. This is
our stats from the Institute of Superinnuation Trust. One in
four reports severe symptoms. Twenty five percent actually consider quitting work.
(02:09):
So we've got one hundred and sixty thousand dozye women
a year who are starting on their menopause journey. As
a direct result of menopause, about twenty thousand women will
at some point move to part time. Half of those
ten thousand would leave work and return later four thousand
actually retire altogether, but that figure twenty five percent consider
(02:32):
leaving work. I know myself there are times where I've thought,
I actually don't.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Know how much longer I can.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Do this with hope of getting to the end line,
to the finish line, and knowing that I'm not going
to feel like this all the time. But obviously what
is happening with women in the UK all around the
world is happening here as well.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
It's like a mirrored.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Effect, absolutely, and I always hear stories exactly of this
that I think, actually I need to step away from work.
I think it's really difficult for women also to understand
how much of what I'm experiencing is menopause, how much
of it is just life, how much it is stress
from my workplace. So it can be confusing, and many
(03:18):
people ask us how can I decipher this and what
strategies can I put in place, because we don't have
the knowledge and the information. So really what we want
to do is educate women and say it's really normal
to feel more stressed and anxious during perimenopause and menopause
because the hormones are changing in your brain, and that
(03:39):
means that you do have a heightened sense of stress
and anxiety, but there's things that you can do to
practically make that better. Unfortunately, we don't have a lot
of research, and some of those stats that you equoted
there are from surveys and from overseas, so we'd love
to see more research and what the economic impact is.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
We're barely the surface.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
There was an article in the finn Review which she
showed me which was really interesting. It gave the example
of a woman who had, like most of us, built
up her career over decades, got you know, to the
upper echelon of what she was doing, and suddenly menopause
hit and it's like, I actually think I have to leave.
And it's so she's left early after you know, gaining
(04:22):
a really noble place in her industry. It's probably cost
to like sixty seventy grand it lost super Are you
seeing a lot of this right across the board?
Speaker 4 (04:31):
Absolutely? And that is what we want to change, you know,
we want people to not feel as they have to leave.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
If you look at Vicki's story, you know, she says,
once I got the support that I needed, I actually
feel like I can work again, and I do want
to work. So isn't it tragic that we've got people
leaving when there are things we can do about it?
And for most people, you know, you said three and
four people will experience symptoms of menopause one in four
or severe. So if you think about it, most people
(04:59):
will just need to be to come into work and say,
I'm having a bit of.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
A day to day.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
I haven't slept well last night, I'm feeling really stressed
and anxious today. You know, can I maybe defer doing
this task today till another day when I'm feeling really
on my game.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
But right now, women.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Fear that they fear that if they say it's menopause
or perimenopause related, that they won't be met with empathy
and understanding and that they won't be given those opportunities
to have flexible work. So I think it's really important
that we do start opening the conversation and we also
start putting some frameworks in workplaces so that the people
(05:38):
that they're going to for that help have the knowledge
of what menopause is, how it might impact people, and
that they know within their workplace how to support that
person with flexibility or potentially with leave if that's what
is needed.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
It's rooted at a deeper issue, though, isn't it. Why
is women? Do we feel that we can't approach our
employer and say, you know, I think it has a
lot to do with the decades long experience we build
ourselves up. Why are we so apprehensive to say, hey,
I need support and it's because of peri or minopause.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
Well, we don't value aging very well here, do we.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
I mean, is it a gender issue?
Speaker 3 (06:18):
I think we've got a long way to go. And
you know, if we look at some cultures around menopause
where people where aging's revered, you know, there is some
discussion about whether menopause symptoms are actually a lot less
prevalent in those societies where aging is actually valued. I
(06:38):
think we've definitely, in the workplace, got a long way
to go. And agism is something that workplaces understand they
have to tackle. We've got an aging population. We will
see people working for longer. We will need to have
people working for longer because we have, you know, productivity
demands in this country. So workplaces are starting to address it,
(06:58):
but we've got a long way to god and sadly,
many people who leave the workforce during menopause, get the
right support and help, and then feel so they want
to get back into the worst.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
And it's very difficult. I just think it's such.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
A shame to have got to that point and then
to leave and you obviously haven't been supported, do you
know what I mean? Like, And it's such a huge
loss for industry as well, because you're losing all these
skilled workers that really are irreplaceable.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
I mean, if you think about a middle aged woman
in a workplace who just wants to get things done. Yeah,
we're pretty you know, we're pretty productive, and we.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Are well, we're spinning several different plates where parents, we're carers,
we're doing all these different things.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
We can multitask. I think we've got that down, Pat.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Tell me, so what can workplaces do? What would you
recommend if you could make an appeal to workplaces now,
what do they need to do to be leading in
that field and to keep these skilled work and support
women and families really that are going through a hormonal change.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
I would say to workplaces that menopause is like mental
health fifteen years ago, where we knew we needed to
have a conversation about it at work, but we weren't
really sure how to do that. Now we see that
it's a commonplace to have support for mental health within
our workplaces. We have mental health first atas so looking
at the same way that we opened up that conversation
(08:25):
and using that to open up a conversation about menopause.
I think the first thing a workplace can do is
speak to the people within within their workplace and ask
them how much do you know about menopause? Are you
experiencing symptoms, how are they impacting you in our workplace?
And specifically getting those senior leaders to come out and
talk about menopause. You know, we heard we saw Image
(08:48):
and Crump on the TV toos. You know, she called
out hot flush. So for senior leaders, if you're having
a moment, you know, calling it out and making it
a conversation that's welcome and okay in the workplace.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Yeah, Removing the taboo and the stigma I think is
at a good step absolutely, And I think, you know,
training is really important and just giving people the knowledge
of what it is, because we still see stats coming
out about how little we actually know ourselves about something
that's going to happen to all of us born with oaries.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
So I think, you know, it's a really great way
to open up a conversation. And what we've seen from
workplaces that that have been accredited by menopause Friendly in
the UK is that the employee engagement that comes from
it is fantastic and women say, I'm really grateful that
my employer has actually given me this really practical knowledge
(09:38):
to help me not only at work, but also in
my life and with my health.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
And that's the thing.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
If you feel supported at work, it's going to make
all of your life easier, to be honest, isn't it.
With the workplace, my vision, my dream is that we
talk obviously and have a lot of systems in place
for pay peridittal leave and for maternity leave. Wouldn't it
be great if we had a one day where that
was the same for menopause.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
It's just common sense to me.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Yeah, it is a question. I'm being asked a lot
is around policies and leave particularly so obviously, as someone
born with ovaries, you're going to have reproductive health needs, fertility,
you know, if you think about being a parent, but
also things like endometriosis, pcos menopause, so you know, there's
(10:30):
many people saying, well, actually, because we are born with
reproductive organs like this, it means that we are going
to need extra time off. Correct, I'm going to need
to go to appointments. We need to have that time
to go and you know, seek that care. So many
employers are looking at providing leave, but.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
In addition to current entitlements.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
In addition to current entitlements, that's right. So in Victoria,
the public sector are actually currently looking at providing five
days leave menopause, menstruation, and reproductive therapy. I would say,
though leave's not the most important thing. The most important
thing is for women to be able to just come
into work say that I'm having a day and be
(11:13):
able to know that that conversation is not going to
lead to stigma.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Yes, yeah, or you know, their chance of promotion or
their stance in the workplace.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
I was talking to a woman the other day who's
a lawyer, and she said she had been very open
about her perimenopause journey. She spoke to her employer and said, look,
I'm going through perimenopause. I'm finding that I'm not sleeping,
and I've got this brain fog, and I've got other
things like heavy menstrual periods happening that you know, she
was really brave spoke to her male employer about it
without them having opened the conversation, and she said she
(11:46):
did have to take some extra leaf, which was her
sick leaf. She took her sick leaf to go to
an appointment to see a doctor and to help you know,
her feel better so that she could, you know, stay
at work. And she said her employer was very supportive
and they said absolutely. But then when it came time
for her performance review, her manager said, well, you have
taken a lot of extra leave days and we know
(12:07):
that you've found it difficult. And she said to our employer,
but this is my performance review, So what's my performance
made to do with my medical condition?
Speaker 4 (12:15):
Right?
Speaker 3 (12:16):
And so you know, but she did say, you know,
what was my performance and they said, look, your performance
has been fantastic. And so I think we really need
to understand how to separate that you performance versus needing
time out of the workforce, because as you and I know,
if you take time off and you feel better, you're
going to be able to perform a lot more than
if you stay sitting at your desk not getting that help,
(12:38):
not taking that time off continuing to struggle on and
then you know that's where your performance is impacted.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
This is the thing, and I think this is why
women are reluctant to talk.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
I did IVF at work as well, and hit it
from my employer for a couple of years. And then
when I did announce that I was pregnant, my manager
gave me a packet of condoms for the secret center,
which was a big blow.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
So, look, we do.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Have a lot of way to go, but staying silent
is not the answer. Keeping hiding what we're going through.
This is a normal, natural thing that every single person
who's born with ovaries will go through, and there are
symptoms that we need to address. But so we do
need to open the conversation in a really informative way
(13:26):
that really shows workplaces that this can be a way
that you can stand out from the crowd. Yeah, you
can attract really talented women and.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Lead the way.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
What Ozsie employers Grace are leading the way with menopause leave.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
We're seeing people from across different industry groups. So employers
like BHP, which is a big mining company in Anglo
goldas Shanty really leading the way in their Industry Accentia.
We're one of the first members. They're an organization who's
accredited in the UK. But even you know, all different
industry groups, not for profits like cares WA. We're seeing
(14:03):
all ambulance services, also manufacturers of food. So people who
employ lots of different diverse people from different backgrounds really
seeing that if they start opening the conversation now, they
can really improve the working conditions for women through menopause
and that has a great business impact for them.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
It's only positive, isn't it productivity? Maintaining stuff skilled staff.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
It costs fifty five thousand dollars on average if someone
goes on a stress related workplace injury. So if you
think about somebody going feeling that they can't cope at
work and they might not even know that their hormones
could be the reason as well. So if you think
about those people giving them the right support, education, allowing
(14:53):
them to get the right care that they need and
then not take that time out of the workforce on
stress related injury claims. But also it's one hundred and
fifty percent of someone's salary to replace them. Yeah, so
the cost of turnover to businesses is huge and unemployment
in Australia is still really low. We are still fighting
to get talented people to work for us, So employees
(15:14):
that realize that they have to step up and they
have to show that they are a great place to work,
to attract and retain talented women and to change some
of those horrible statistics around our gender pay gap, which
is twenty one point seven percent quite embarrassing.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Actually, yeah, tell us about the Federal Senate inquiry.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
What do we hope will come out of that?
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Just the fact we're having it is a good first
step absolutely. I mean, do you think five years ago
we would have had a Senate inquiry into metopause? I think,
you know, that just shows having more people who lived
experience in parliament really helps to bring these things into
the fore. So I'm really excited about the Senate inquiry
and reading some of the submissions of people who have
(15:58):
submitted anonymously. Don't read them too close to bed, you know,
it's really die always hearing some horrible stories of people
really struggling. So I hope the outcomes from the Center
inquiry will be renewed focus on training for doctors. So
right now there's not great education and training for our GPS.
So people often are going to see their doctor and
(16:19):
they're being dismissed or their doctor doesn't understand how to
help support them through their symptoms. So that's a really
important outcome that I hope to see from the inquiry.
From a workplace perspective, you know, we really flesh out
where the gaps are for employment of women in this
life phase and where some additional protections could.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
Be brought in.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
So some of the unions are looking at, well, could
we make menopause a protected right under the Respected Work
Act so that there's actually a protection for people that
you cannot be discriminated on based on your menopausal status.
Others are looking at whether or not there needs to
be leave entitlements. So really what we want to do
is across all the different aspects of menopause and not
(17:04):
only in the workplace, but also looking at how it
impacts our First Nations population, our cold communities, you know,
LGBTQI plus a community who find extremely difficult to get
support and help during this life phase. So I'm really
confident that it will shine a spotlight. As we've all
said inquiries, you know, it's really key that then the
(17:26):
handing down off the reports and flows through interchange. Yes,
but right now, what I'm saying is that the spotlight
means that people are talking about it, that workplaces are
looking at what they can do, and that women are
asking for more. You know, they're saying, I've fed up,
this is not good enough. I deserve better, and I
really want to know what I can do to stay
(17:46):
healthy through this time of life and feel like I
can still thrive in all aspects.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
It's almost like there needs to be a designated minister,
so not just a women's affairs minister, but someone that
someone that can oversee the recommendations and actually make positive change.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
So it'll be interesting to see what comes out of it.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
It's interesting you mentioned that because in the UK they
had a parliamentary inquiry a couple of years ago. One
of the outcomes of that was that the government nominated
a menopause in the workplace government champion. That is a
volunteer position that that person's not paid to do or
provided things. But what we've see naturally has been the
(18:29):
biggest outcome, The biggest driver of change is really getting
to women where they are, and that's in the workplace.
You know, When I first started learning about perimenopause, I
was in my late thirties. I had an obstetrician father.
My mom is a midwife, Oh wow. And I did
the Masters of Nursing, Oh wow. And I still had
no idea about menopause.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
See here you go.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
So really, I think we need to almost have an intervention,
don't we, you know, just to say to women, this
is going to happen to you. Here's the facts. You know,
it's not all bad. You can also have, you know,
a really empowering time through this. It can be an
opportunity to really refocus and focus on what you want
to bring forward into your life and what you want
(19:12):
to leave behind. You know, because you get to that
point of life where you think, I'm not gonna think
it was fifty.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
It was fifty for me where I thought, you know,
I don't care so much what people think. You grow
into your skin a bit, you feel a bit more
comfortable in your own skin.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
I think someone said to me the other day, you
know the world should fear a fifty year old woman
who just doesn't give us stuff anymore.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
I didn't say stuff.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
That's so true, though, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
But I mean, I don't think we should fear fear
fifty old women who don't give U stuff anymore.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
We should be empowering.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
You know Where's fear got us to this point. Fear
to speak up in the workplace, fear to get to
say anything, and it's not getting us anywhere.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
So we need to change our tact moving forward.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
It's time absolutely and let's celebrate how amazing women are
in all stages of life. And I think really what
we can hopefully say from this parliamentary inquiry as well
is women stepping up and saying, yeah, I didn't have
a great time through menopause, but I'm out the other
side now and I feel better than I ever have before.
I know who I am as a person, I know
(20:12):
what I want to do, and I've shared a lot.
Speaker 4 (20:14):
Of that worry.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
I've stopped really looking at all of the small things
and I'm really feeling as so I'm in my power
now where I can really make an impact, and so
those stories are really important to share as well.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Part of our role, I think too, is leaving a
legacy for other women. The buck stops with us. We
are in charge of this situation. We need to lead
the way for change.
Speaker 4 (20:38):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
I've got two daughters as well, they're nine and eleven.
They know a lot about menopause, obviously a lot more
than their friends.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
But that's the point.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
You know, they know more about menopause because if me
but their friends wouldn't. Why do when we educate kids
about periods do we cut the conversation short, We don't
talk about and then you know your periods will stop,
but it won't be abrupt, It'll be gradual, and holmines
will change over time, and you might have symptoms that
are difficult to deal with, but there's help available and
(21:10):
you can get through it. And then on the other side,
you have a lot more living to be done. And
I think particularly as well is some of the longer
term health risks associated with going through menopause early.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
People don't know about that.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
And women are going through it early, like early forties,
you hear now even late late thirties, whereas perhaps we
had this sort of perception that it happened to our grandmothers,
but it's actually probably really not the case. It's kind
of more like a midlife sort of crisis we're going through.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
In synetics.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Yeah, I mean, I can't tell you the number of
women that are in my I'm forty one, and you know,
women in the late thirties and early forties and say, oh,
I'm not in menopause yet. And I say, well, how
do you know? And they said, I'm still getting my period,
you know, I say, well, actually, you know, menopause is
a one day event and on average occurs between forty
five and fifty five. But perimenopause, that time leading up
(22:07):
when we're having the roughest right, that can last ten years.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
I know.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
So if you think about somebody conceivably on average, can
go through menopause at forty five, ten years earliest.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
Thirty five.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Yeah, I reckon. I was thirty eight thirty nine after
I had Audrey. I could feel my body change, and
I used to When I look back now, I think
it was the start of like that hot flush time
where it was just at the back of my neck
and then it sort of grew more extensive. But now
I look back, I think, yeah, that was probably at
the time like about thirty nine for me.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
And what I want is women to not look back,
you know, not to have to look back and say, oh,
it was perimenopause. You know, to have that knowledge and
information when we're going through it, and a lot of
what we see is that actually just by talking about
it with others that are experiencing it, that.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
Can make us feel so much better, one.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Hundred percent better.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
A lot of women say they feel that they're going
through early dementia, that they're having a nervous broke down.
I feel like that at times where I have so
much trouble remembering stuff and I think, you know, there's
dementia in my family, and I think, oh my god, like.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Lighting on the wall for me, Like it's something.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
I mean, anyone who's experienced brain fog you do, because
it can come on really suddenly as well, and it
could be mead sentence and all of a sudden, what
you're talking about drops out of your head. And you
think about that in the workplace, if you're presenting to
a board and you've got your slides up and your.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
On radio, Absolutely, and.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
You're just the words, it's like a rug getting ripped
out from unto you. Yeah, and it's just so isolating.
It's like, oh my god, what's going on with my head?
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Absolutely, And I mean there are some great researchers here
in Victoria actually at the her Center, who are about
to release a fact sheet about brain fog to help
people understand is it normal what I'm experiencing or is
it early on set dementia?
Speaker 4 (23:59):
Do I need to go and seek real help for this?
Speaker 3 (24:01):
And I think that's really important too, is that if
you're experiencing brain fog and it's affecting your life, affecting
your abilities to work, you know, affecting your relationships because
your kids are saying I've already told you that four
times a month, then go and talk to somebody about it.
Because there are things we can do, medical and non
medical that can help make brain fog better. And in
(24:25):
the workplace, you know, putting in place and strategy, so
not having conversations off the cuff with your manager in
the corridor when you know that you're going to forget
exactly what he asked you to do or she asked
you to do in the corridor, you know, sitting down
and having a meeting where you can write notes.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
I take so many notes.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Yeah, same.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
The number of lists I have is ridiculous, and old
school lists where I have to physically.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Write it on paper. I seem to forget to remember
it easier.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
But you know what, all of the experience that you
have in your role and in your life is still there,
all of your capability and knowledge or their closed door.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
It's just a bit, it's just very good webs.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
But and that is really important to have that conversation
because that will give women confidence to say, it's brain fog.
I've got some strategy in place now, I'm still capable,
i can still do my job. I've still got this.
And that conversation needs to happen in workplaces and employers
can educate their people, leaders and their managers around what
(25:25):
to do. Somebody is experiencing that because right now managers
are saying someone's coming to me.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
They're saying they've got brain fog. I don't know what.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're not armed with information. If there's
employers listening, workers listening and want to get in touch
with you, what is the best way for them to
reach out.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Sure, they can download our free Menopause Friendly Checklist off
of our website, which will give them some great some
tips and strategies to start thinking about how menopause friendly
they are at the moment.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
So that's for employers.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
We also have a LinkedIn page that they can connect
with us, and we share lots of different information and
research for individuals. I would say, if you are feeling
like your symptoms of menopause are impacting you at work
and you want to talk to someone and you don't
know where to start, have a look on your internet
and look around your organization if there are policies, if
(26:20):
there is support existing that you might be able to utilize.
If there's not, write down your symptoms, keep tracking your
symptoms and thinking about how they're impacting.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
You at work.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
Find someone within your within your workplace that you do
trust or that you want to talk to about it,
and then focus the conversation at work around what the
workplace can do to help get the support that you
need outside the workplace for your health concerns. And you know,
you can start managing symptoms with your GP and really
focusing that on a really constructive conversation in the workplace,
(26:52):
because that then shows that you are taking action to
support yourself. You know exactly what it is that you
need at work, and you're coming to your lawyer saying, look,
this is something that could really help, and often those
strategies already exist, flexible working policies. You know that they're
you know, we're all working from home now. But often
many women say the number one thing is just knowing
(27:14):
that somebody at web knows what I'm going through and
so if I'm having a day, I can call them
and say, look, I'm having a day.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
And it's not just in your head, no, I mean
and suffering in silence is a big thing.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
Yeah, And this is when we run our training courses
aiming workplaces, we're inundated with women saying, first of all,
I had no idea how much of this of what
I'm going through is normal. And now that I know,
I feel less alone, you know, And I think that
is there's so much power in that because women are
(27:48):
feeling really alone, they're feeling as though they may is
it this is it that we're you know, we get
dismissed sometimes when we go and ask for help, So
it leaves us with even more lack of confidence, guilt,
feel like we're letting people down, correct, don't we? And
it's not fair because you know we've got to this
point and when you've had children as well, and you
(28:08):
know you've had to take time out of work to
look after your kids, and you're joined the juggle and
your kids are in daycare and they're sick all the time,
and you feel like you're just not able to really
contribute focus at work. And then when you finally feel
like your kids are at school and you've got a
handle on things, and you think, oh, I can really
get back into a meaty meeting role. Now I feel
like to put myself first after these years, exactly, and
(28:33):
so we want to harness that. But many women then say,
but then PERI, menopause just came and snacked me in
the face, and I feel like it's not fair.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
Yeah, I felt ripped off.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
I actually felt ripped off after going through indometriosis and
polycystic and then I had the cancer.
Speaker 4 (28:50):
You've been through it so much.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Oh well, probably a lot of people have.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
But I got to that point and I thought, seriously, like,
now I'm my periods have kind of finished, and it's like,
now I have Are you serious? Now I have to
go through this? Like I didn't sign up for this,
Like come on.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
And that's what it can feel like in the workplace, too,
like I've just had enough, and it's easy to blame
work when I stressed and say it must be my
work that's making me feel this way. What about when
you went through your cancer treatment, did anyone talk to
you about how that would impact you in terms of menopause.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
I had a renal in afrectomy, so I had my
left kidney out and then I had my right overtaken,
which wasn't I have to say, it wasn't related to
the kidney cares or I just had assist there that
had been there for a very long time and it
was starting to change compositions.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
So they thought, you know what, I think we'll get
that out.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
And my surgeon said that might speed up your menopause process.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Which it did.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
So I was already perimenopausal on that stage, but I
was still getting a period, but a bit hickuity pickity.
I had so much trouble, so much trouble getting diagnosed
with ENDO in the first place. I had an elderly
gynecologist and I said to I was probably in my
early twenties, and I said to him, do you think
it's possitive because you don't know your period compared to
(30:13):
someone else. You're like, I've got a very high pain threshold.
I knew that, but I didn't know if what I
was having was normal, this crippling paint. And I said
to him, is it possible. I've heard of this thing
called endometriosis. Is it possible I could have that? He
rolled his eyes into the back of his head. So
you know what that gave me a feeling of, oh well,
(30:33):
I'm being eurotic, like that's just ridiculous. So I just
shoved it in a cupboard away. And then it wasn't
until it took us five years to conceive our daughter,
and when literally on the day I had her, I
had a cesarean section, and I had a wonderful obstetrician,
Lionel Steinberg vaginal Lionel, who speaking of that cyst, said
(30:57):
when I'm in there, I might get that cyst, which
he didn't end up because it looked fine, but he said,
I can see why you've you definitely have endometriosis. Your
fallopian tube on the right side is wrapped around your
bow like a tree.
Speaker 4 (31:10):
Stuff.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
I'm not going near that. That's a major surgery.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
But you know what it was, it was I just
felt my body like relax because I felt vindicated, like
I didn't feel like an idiot, like that other surgeon
made me feel for feeling eurotic and it was all
in my head. So I had quite a battle just
to get and I was thirty nine at that point,
and I started my periods at what fourteen?
Speaker 2 (31:34):
So I went all that time.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
And hopefully now, I mean, we're seeing a lot more
funding for demetro so it has been a great education.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
In the federal budget, they announced funding. I think it's
finally time. And I'm hoping the same can happen for
minnopause too. I hope to see that as well.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
And I think, you know, for anyone out there, it's
hard to know if what you're experiencing is normal. And
I had this conversation with someone about heavy menstrual bleeding
because ninety percent of women will have at least one
heavy flooding period during their perimenopause and menopause journey. But
we don't actually ever know how much is normal because
we're you're really on ec ours, right, So.
Speaker 4 (32:10):
That's right, you think, is this normal? Is it not normal?
Same with pain.
Speaker 3 (32:13):
You know, we put up with so many things because
we think we just should when they're actually our answers
to what we're going through, but it's finding the right doctor.
As he said, you know, you call out to the
right amazing gynecologist. Again, that can be really challenging for people,
particularly in rule and remote areas.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
The excesses into a gynecologist can take months in regional.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
Areas absolutely, and that's I think why it's important that
a public awareness campaign, you know, really would be fantastic,
and I hope that the government do look at that,
at running a public awareness campaign around perimenopause and menopause.
You know, there's got to be some health economics in
it if you think about women looking after their bone health,
their heart health, looking after our diet, BET's health, you know,
(33:01):
So staying well through midlife is really what perimenopause or
health is about, is going to have a better impact
on our long term health as well. So I think
it's vital that we talk about it more. We're starting
in the workplace because we know that's where women are
and we know that there are really significant benefits for
the workplace as well.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
So I hope the.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
Government will continue that by doing something around public awareness
too for everyone.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Well, congratulations, I think you're doing an amazing job and
I think you're being a trailblazer in.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
All of this.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
Oh, thank you. I don't feel like a trailblazer. I'm
just saying it how it is, so hopefully others will
join me.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
No, but it's important. I think that's what we need
to do. We need to talk about it.
Speaker 4 (33:42):
So thank you, Grace, Thank you, lovely to meet.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
You, Grace molloy, CEO of Minopause Friendly Australia. For more information,
you can head to their website or email hello at
Menopausefriendly dot com dot au. My next guest is someone
I grew up watching on Catwalks National TV, who, when
she found out I was having a launch party the
(34:04):
Rage Against the Menopause, got in touch, eager to meet
me and offer up her lived experience. Nikki Buckley features
in episode eight, going by the beat of her own drum,
I'm Petrina Jones.
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