June 4, 2025 • 32 mins
The bandaid has been ripped off and some of the ugly truths on Menopause care revealed. The Senate Inquiry into Menopause has heard harrowing stories from women and has set a framework for the future. Greens Leader Larissa Waters joins Patrina in this must listen episode.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You know.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
The menopause club is a big one around the globe.
It'll impact one point two billion women by twenty thirty.
And while our experiences are as unique as we all are,
research suggests our culture and even where we live may
affect our experiences. In societies where age is more revered,
menopausal symptoms are far less bothersome, whereas where older is
(00:23):
equated with old age, symptoms can be more devastating. In Australia,
menopause can be seen as a time to dread and
to navigate in silence. It's fair to say we're lagging
behind other countries. However, the recent Senate Inquiry into menopause
broke new ground in shining the spotlight on our current
state of play. It's a good starting marker in determining
(00:47):
the future roadmap in care. The Greens Party secured support
to establish the inquiry to better understand the health and
economic impacts of menopause. It was instigated by now leaders
Senator Larissa Waters, a trailblazer in her own right.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Menopause, It's coming for you no matter what. Let's build
a village of support.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Why is it so damn hot in here?
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Menopause is so hot right now.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
I think I'm finally in menopause.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Women just want to feel hurt. Rage Against the Menopause. Well,
my next.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Guest I'm extremely excited about it is Green's leader, Senator
Larissa Waters. Welcome to Rage Against the Menopause.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to
be here.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
You reached out to me. I was on the project
last year. Your people reached out to me and said, hey,
Larissa would love to be on the podcast, and I
thought I would love to have you some So thrilled
that you've given me time. And you were just saying
before we hit record that you were in Canberra till
what time.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Oh we left the chamber at about seven pm Canberra time,
and I had to get home to Brisbane to my
lovely children, who are like body's kids, lovely and extraordinarily demanding.
I'm doing the juggle that many of us do.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
That's the thing, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
It's just we're career women, but we're also mums, and
we're daughters in we're wives and partners.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Yeah, and we're very busy and sometimes we're very tired,
but we try to remain cheerful.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Were your girls are seven and fifteen. You were saying
you're up a couple of times through the night. He
never stops, does it.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
No, a little one was cold because we've had a
heatwave here in me Angela, Brisbane, where I'm joining you from.
But of course it's all of a sudden that's gotten
cold and rainy.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
So oh are you kidding?
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Almost like the climate's changing. Who knew, Larissa?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
You are a trailblazer in women's rights and protections and
this is nothing new that you would start the Senate
inquiry into menopause because there was an incident in Federal
Parliament that caused a bit of a stir as we
talk about your daughters when one was a baby.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Tell us about that.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Oh, we're going back a little while now, So she
was this is seven and a half years ago, because
littlest one is that old now, and I was in office.
I've been I was elected in twenty ten, so I've
been in the parliament for quite some time and was
lucky enough to have a second child, and so I
did so whilst trying to juggle my work duties. And
(03:17):
like any mum, you do your best to try to
make sure you can breastfeed above and sometimes it works,
sometimes it doesn't. But I was lucky and so Bubba
was super hungry, and it was a parliamentary sitting day
and we have parts of the day where you have
to be in the chamber because you might vote at
any minute, and it was one of those parts and
my partner at the time was messaging, soon, she's getting
really hungry, honey, I'm not shocking up her off my shonger.
(03:40):
She's gonna scream. So I said, right, we'll bring her in.
I'll pop her on the boob and get my job done,
both of them at the same time. And unfortunately, I
was the first person to do that in federal Parliament,
which is insane because we've had a federal Parliament for
more than one hundred and twenty years and it's pretty
clear that we haven't had enough mums or women generally
in that parliament. But thankfully we've had quite a few
(04:02):
other little bubbers in the chamber since then, so it
feels like slowly parliament's entury.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
It broke the mold. What sort of sort of flack.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Did you cop for doing that? At the time, I
know it was like headline news.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yeah, it was really mixed pats. I had a lot
of support, obviously from my Green's colleagues and from some
of the nicer folk in the chamber, and that there's
lots of those. There were a few of the older
white gentlemen at the time. Thankfully some of those have
retired now, but there was a few archaic, bordering on paternalistic,
sexist reactions from some of them that I found deeply inappropriate.
(04:41):
And then of course there were people on the internet
that had strong views. And I acknowledge that I'm lucky.
I'm in a job where I am able to multitask.
I am able to breastfeed little one and do my
job at the same time, and I acknowledge not everyone
can do that. But I think it's important to try
to break down whatever barriers are in your power to
try to break down. And I'm really proud that one
(05:01):
of the things that people stopped me at the shops
or in the street about is to say, I felt
really empowered when you did that, and it gave me
the confidence to feed my little one wherever I was,
which still gives me shivers. It makes me feel really
proud that I was able to help other women just
feel safer to do what they want to do.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Yeah, and I think, and that's why I'm doing the podcast.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
I see that as part of my legacy to my
daughter who's fourteen. But that's the thing. If we're sharing
our lived experiences, what it does is it gives other
women license to feel that they can talk about their
experience with Perry and menopause personally. Obviously you have instigated
(05:45):
or established consensus support for the Menopause Inquiry, but personally
for you, is that something that you're tackling at the moment.
Are you going through perimenopause? Are you menopause?
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Or yeah, look very much so. So I admit to
shameless self interest in setting up a Senate inquiry into this,
And again I'm fortunate that I'm in a position where
I've got the ability to instigate something like that. And
the Senate inquiry is where the whole of the Chamber
or you know, selected representatives decide being going to look
at a topic and then decide to gather evidence from
(06:17):
members of the public and from experts, and then write
a report that distills all of that and makes suggestions
to government on what should be done. And the reason
I thought to do. It was I looked around as
I was feeling my own symptoms, and I'll come to
those in a moment. But I looked around and I
realized there's actually not any federal policy about menopause or perimenopause.
(06:38):
There's very little knowledge in the public about this. Often
women themselves aren't really sure what's happening to them. And
we've heard so many stories, including my own, where am
I losing my mind totally? Who am I? Where is
my former sense of confidence or clarity, stability? A whole
range of mental health impacts, and of course a whole
(06:59):
range of physical impacts that are a bit more well known.
And so I was, yeah, I had the ability and
the motivation to suggest the Senate inquiry into this, and
the process was great. We had a whole year of hearings.
We had representatives from all the different political parties, interestingly
all women on the panel, which probably was quite helpful,
although we do need men to engage on this issue.
(07:21):
And in the end, despite our political differences, we all
agreed on some key recommendations. Happened all the round.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
There's a lot of common ground.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
So how many people did you hear from throughout the
inquiry like how many dozens of women?
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Yeah, we got hundreds of submissions from all sorts of people,
from organizations and representative bodies, from medical professionals, and most importantly,
in my view, from ordinary women.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
A couple of them from my guests in the first
Oh How One series, who have been amazing supporters of
the podcast, but gave very valuable evidence as well when
it was their turn to speak.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Look, it was such a privilege to sit there and
hear women be so beautifully honest as often women can be,
and really share what they'd gone through. And I think
there's sometimes quite a bit of stigma about sharing that
you're struggling. To be so much so proud of it
that they were able to weakness, that's right. I felt
(08:22):
so proud that they were able to say, Look, actually
I'm going to be I'm going to be real about
what I'm going through, and that just makes it absolutely
safer for everyone else to admit, oh my god, I've
been struggling as well. What did you do to manage? Oh,
here's what I did. And that strength and support that
you can draw from shared experience nothing beats it. So
I felt that every time we heard from the women
(08:43):
that gave evidence to the inquiry, and I can relate
to aspects of almost everybody's story, and it just, you know,
everyone was fiercely nodding along on the committee. And yeah,
and I think that's why we've come to such strong
recommendations about making sure that doctor get the training that
they need to recognize the symptoms, making sure that women
(09:05):
understand what to look for, because we heard horror stories
about misdiagnoses, and we heard women either said I was
anything wrong with you, Just go home and try to
get some rest, as if women at this age who
were often caring for kids and or older parents and
or working, like as if you've got time to rest,
we'd love to, but hates just happen. So there was
(09:28):
a lot of there was a lot of dismissal of
women's experience by doctors, and then there was also a
lot of doctors that just said, look, I don't have
a clue. We never got any training on this.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Well, that was one of there was twenty five recommend
or actually thirty five, no, twenty five recommendations sorry to
come out of the inquiry, one of which I think
for me was the most startling was that, no wonder
we feel discounted by doctors or doctors perhaps giving you
a script for antidepressants which is totally not what you
need because they get something like and hours, So we're
(10:01):
talking sixty minutes of training in medical school.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
So no wonder we feel like we're floundering.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Absolutely outrageous. We're more than half of the population and
every single one of us will go through perimenopause and menopause. Now,
some people won't have too many symptoms, great, well done.
Then others of us will struggle with some mild to
moderate symptoms, and about twenty percent of us will have
an absolute hell of a time and it will be
really debilitating and affect our ability to keep working and
(10:30):
affect our relationships. So there's clearly a lot of people
that will go through this and yet to have just
one hour. As we heard in the Senate inquiry for
undergraduate doctors to be taught about it really sounds like
no woman was in the room when that curriculum was written,
and that we really need to modernize what our medical
students get taught. And so that was one of the recommendations.
(10:53):
Let's bring it out of dark ages and make sure
that the whole range of women's health experiences, in particular
perimenopause and menopause, is properly taught in undergrad and not
just to future GPS, but to other allied health folk,
to physios, to nurses, to midwives. Let's make sure that
anyone that a woman might have contact with when she's
(11:15):
seeking some medical help knows what to look for and
can then help recommend potential treatments depending on what's right
for that woman.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
I think the trouble is the mindfield of symptoms that
can be perimenopause or menopause as well. And sometimes you know,
I was talking to a girlfriend yesterday and there was
something wrong with my shoulder and I said to her, Oh,
could it be menopause?
Speaker 3 (11:39):
Is it my joints?
Speaker 2 (11:40):
I think there's We're easy to deflect.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Onto that when it may not be that.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
But that's why it's so important for our medical fraternity
to be across it. Why is it that you know
that it's sort of shoved up to now being shoved
to the side. Is it because is it gendered ageism thing?
What is it that we're doing that it's not seen
as important as conception and pregnancy in birth.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
It's so strange, isn't it, Pats that you talk we're
getting better at teaching our school kids about respectful relationships
and about puberty and about pregnancy, but there's nothing about
what happens once you've had a baby. And that's of
course acknowledging that not everyone wants to have children, not
everyone will, so it's almost like we're considered baby making
(12:31):
machines and then that's really all we're good for now.
That may well have been the vibe when those sort
of curricula were written, but we have long moved on
from those archaic notions. So we definitely need to modernize
what we're teaching kids, what we're teaching the future gps
of the world, and what we're teaching women. And I
(12:51):
think part of the reason why it's remained in the
shadows perhaps is probably two key things. I think, you know,
our mothers, maybe all of them speak about this with us.
Some are lucky and have really forthright mums that are
brave and proud, but I think there hasn't been that
sort of mum to daughter sharing and passing on. And
(13:14):
I think also, you know, forty fifty years ago, there
were less of us working, we were at home more
and you know, we just suffered in silence. We just
got on with a job. And these days most of
us are working as well as having car and duties,
and we're bloody busy, and we don't want to be
seen as incompetent because we've fought so hard to get
(13:37):
where we are in our careers. And people, many people
feel just a bit nervous about piping up saying, look,
I'm battling right now. I'll be okay, I'll get through this,
but can you give me a bit of leniency in
the time, you know, for the time being. And so
we really fought against that notion of this stigma and
what to do about that, and so how best to
tackle that in a policy sense. Should we have menopause
(14:00):
leave so that people that twenty percent that really struggle,
they can step out of the workforce, still have some pay,
perhaps it's unpaid leave or a mix, but keep that
connection to the workforce so that they can go back
to work when they've got their symptoms under control and
they're not, you know, not end up having real financial impacts.
(14:21):
Or did people feel a bit nervous saying to their
boss this is what I'm going through. Did they not
want to feel like they might be discriminated against. So
we took all of this marvelous evidence, and you know,
I don't want to have a strong I don't like
telling people what to I think everyone could make up
their own minds. So we ended up recommending let's have
reproductive healthcare leave available to everyone, to women who are
(14:45):
maybe having really bad period pain, maybe having endos such
as yourself, maybe having other reproductive issues. Perhaps it's so
want to go and get their ultry sound because they're
having a bubber. Maybe it's perimenopause and menopause. Let's make
sure that it's the full diversity women's experience. But importantly,
let's let the dudes have a go to because otherwise
they'll complain. Perhaps they want to go get a vi
(15:07):
sect to me, maybe they won't go along to the ultrasound.
Let's make this a leave provision that.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Every even you don't go and do this sperm sample
for IVF or go to a scan with that all
important scan with their partner, you know, when they are pregnant.
All that's right, egg retrieval, all those things there. Yeah,
and we need to part of the picture.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
We need to promote men looking after their health as well,
because we know that many men, you know, keeping under
wraps and that ends up damaging their health even more.
And importantly promote men to being active dads and to
be encouraged by their workplace to go to those sort
of family appointments. So yeah, that's where we ended up landing.
And I think the balls now in the government's court.
But I would hope that any government, no matter what
(15:48):
political party they're from, can see that women deserve this,
that women have shared their experience as part of this
national year long inquiry, and that they want something done
and that their health care is worth it, and that
women deserve that kind of attention from their government.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
We mentioned we touched on the GPS. What were some
of the other shocking sort of revelations for you and
came out of the inquiry?
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Probably two key ones, Pats. One was that we've touched
a bit on the training. One was that one GP
said the only thing I was taught about menopause in
med school was that women were either mad or sad. Now,
what a gross summary acknowledging that menopauseal rage is a thing,
as is depression. And anxiety. So you know, there are
(16:33):
elements of mad or SAD, but what a reductionist. What
an absolutely limited education that is. And the second thing
that was the most confronting PATS was that doctors were
misdiagnosing women. And we heard so many times women share
the mental health challenges that perimenopause and menopause had brought
(16:54):
on for them, even if they hadn't had mental health
challenges before. And we had their gps say either just
you know, have a rest, you just need to do list,
or we had them say, well, here's the prescription for antidepressants.
You just depressed. Here's some he's a fix for that. Now,
many people who suffer from depression do need antidepressants, but
(17:15):
if you're perimenopausal or menopausal, that's a hormonal depression. That's
a different thing which needs a different treatment. And so
MHT menopausal hormone therapy, which is the new name for HRT,
but it's the same thing. Actually, that's the medicine that
you might be needing and that might help you manage
not only the physical symptoms, but the mental health impacts
(17:37):
as well.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
How do you do it?
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Like people ask me when I'm you know, doing breakfast
radio and I'm a mum doing the podcast.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
How do you do it? And it's like if.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
I stopped, if I stopped and thought about it, I'd
probably enough in a fetal position. I don't know, you
just it's what I do. You just you know, I've
done breaking radio for over thirty years. It's just what
you do. Is that your crazy schedule? Do you feel
the same. It's just like it's all about routine, like
how do you and then navigate perimenopause and menopause.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
A bit like your pats. I don't like to examine
it too deeply. On the house of cars might fall over,
But you just get on with it, don't you. We're
busy women, We're capable people. And I like to feel
like I'm making a difference in the world, and so
my work is really important to me, and I feel
really lucky to be able to keep doing it and
to keep pushing for change. It will help people and
protect the planet as well. So that's a real honor
(18:31):
to do it. And you know, I like the intellectual
stimulation that it gives me. But I also love caring
for my family and I'm a single parent and I've
been a single parent, you know quite some time now,
I'm really lucky to have the help of my mum
to look after my girls. I don't think I could
do it without her. Obviously i'd have to pay someone,
but I wouldn't have that same sense of reassurance that
(18:54):
my kids were getting the sort of care and values
that are important to me. So I have a lot
of help. I have one staff who helped me with
my work obligations. And I have a bunch of amazing
girlfriends that when I do get to see them, we're
pour our hearts out to each other, have a good
laugh and feel much stronger and get up and do
it all again the next day.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
Don't you think that's been a big support for me?
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Is the sisterhood is my girlfriends more than if I
was to sit on a psychologist couch, I think, and
being open with them, and it's of support and we
talk about everything. And lately, sort of the last few
years it's been dominated by menopause and I'm sorry, but
the head fuck that comes at menopause.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
It's like a.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Counseling session when we get together and have a couple
of lines and talk about, Hey, I've had a really
hard week or like this week the hot flush is
I know I should have touched what I just said
a couple of weeks ago to a girlfriend.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
You know, I think I'm lucky with the hot flushes,
like I'm getting.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
You jinx yourself that I know.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
And then last weeken like I'm talking like nuclear power
forced flushes. I don't know whether it's getting warmer what
it is, but really like I spoke too soon, because
it's like they've up the ante.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Well, interestingly, perhaps you know the hot flushes are a
signal that you're getting closer towards actual menopause and further
into your perry because what we learned, one of the
things we learned in the inquiry was that one of
the triggers for prescribing MHT for GPS is have you
had a hot flush yet? But interestingly, often the mental
(20:30):
health impacts come first, you know, the sense of self doubt,
the brain fog sometimes, the rage, the creeping sense of anxiety,
the depression, joy, the malaise, the sleep interruptions, a lot
of that which, as you said, can be caused by
other things. And that's why we have doctors, and that's
why they should listen to us and have helped to
(20:51):
work out what the symptoms are up to. But often
the hot flushes don't start until kind of at least
halfway through a bit later on. And so interestingly, one
of the recommendations was we should look at the guidelines
for when you can prescribe air mah T, because if
a woman hasn't had a hot flush yet everything else
points to perimenopause, it may well indeed be perimenopause.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
One of the key problems though with their h T
perats is it's really unaffordable.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
We heard one really really confronting story which was a
woman said, well, I was managing my depression and anxiety,
my menopausal perimenopausal depression and anxiety. I was managing that
well on MHT. I couldn't afford it anymore, and so
I got a pack of Valian which was fifteen dollars
through a pack of fifty. And you know that breaks
my heart in a wealthy nation like ours, when you've
(21:39):
been diagnosed and what medicine you need and you can't
afford to get it. And the doctors themselves said they
really struggled when they knew their patients weren't going to
be able to get the treatment that they actually needed
because they couldn't afford it. Yeah, really really awful, but fixable, fixable.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
By government training. Women deserve more than that, Larissa.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
We do to keep us at out best, we should
be able to afford the health care we need.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
And so many women too, like overrepresented of overrepresentation of
women who end up quitting work. And we touched on earlier.
They've worked decades and decades to get to the point
they're at and then they hit menopause at slams and
in the face it's like, actually can't do this anymore.
And it's not that you can't do it, it's just
(22:23):
you need you need help.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Yeah, and we heard how to provide it. So many
stories of that. Perats really seen your women. We heard
some really powerful evidence in the inquiry from an anethetist
who was representing the you know, the representative body for
other aetheists. And you know, that's a pretty impactful job.
You want to be you want to be feeling like
(22:45):
you've got confidence in the decision that you're making because
because someone's life is in your hands. And so we
heard that that senior women like that were just finding
themselves so challenged either physically or mentally or both by perimenopause,
that they were taking less duties, or they were dropping
down to part time, or they weren't going for that promotion,
or worst case scenario, they were just tapping out and saying, look,
(23:08):
I'll just go, you know, work in a nursery or something.
Just just have a break for a while now. So
people that can afford to make that decision, you know,
that's less of an impact. But generally people can't afford
to make that decision, and you pay for it. In retirement,
we know women retire with less than men anyway, that
two thirds as much. And the amount of women retiring
(23:28):
into poverty, particularly after a lifetime of unpaid care, is
really concerning. And so women's financial security is a big deal,
and perimenopause and menopause is part of helping with that.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Homelessness and women over fifty is a major issue. It
really is their marriages have ended, and they've perhaps given
up work if they worked at all when their first
child was born, so they've worked in the home and
they've got no backup, and that's the relationship and they're
(24:00):
upshit creek base.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
That's right, they've worked their whole damn lives. Yeah, but
the system didn't see the work that they did as valuable,
didn't pay them for all of that work, even though
it enabled others to do paid work and it helped
our whole community keep functioning. Yeah, valuing women's unpaid labor
is an unfinished business for me in Parliament. We could
(24:22):
be doing so much more to value that work because
it is absolutely crucial, and you're so right that women
are copying that disproportionately. And women over fifty five until
about a year ago had been the fastest growing cohort
of people in peril of homelessness. But I just checked
in with the Department last end of twenty twenty four
(24:44):
and now it's actually women over thirty four, So that
kind of middle cohort is now have an increasing risk
of homelessness as well. And the similar sorts of reasons.
It's relationship breakdown, the fact that the work that women
do when we are getting paid, we're still getting paid. Yes,
because women dominating fields that aren't seen as important as
the fields that the men dominating, you know, childcare, nursing, teaching,
(25:08):
rather than construction or mining. So there's just a whole
lot of systemic sexism still that's leading to that outcomes
for women. And you know, there's a lot of people
trying to fix that. There's quite a few men trying
to fix that too, and so that Dan well should
there's still a long way to go.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
If there's women listening that feel like they need support
or perhaps feel like they want to advocate for other women,
would you recommend they go to their local member.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Is that always a good tact?
Speaker 1 (25:37):
I think that's a great suggestion, Pats. Firstly, of course,
reach out to your girlfriends because they're probably feeling a
version of what you're feeling, and you'll find that once
the first person starts the conversation. If your friends are
anything like mine, you'll all be in phusing. So yeah,
find support in your networks, and whether that's just your
friends or whether it's professional support, if you need it,
(25:58):
go and talk to your doctor. In terms of fixing
the affordability of medicine and your rights at work, that
is something for government. So reaching out to your local
member of parliament. You can call them or just email them,
whatever time of night or day, and just share your
personal experience and ask them what they're going to do
to help you, and that you actually have that right
to be helped, that you matter, and that policy should
(26:20):
be made for you, and that you deserve to have
a system that works for you and supports you. We
all deserve that.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Where would you hope that we are I'm going to
give you like a long range if you had like
a wish in like five years time, where would you
hope that we as a country are at.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
That's a big question. In terms of for women, I'd
hope that we'd finally started to reduce the rates of
violence against women and children, because in recent years it's
gone up, and I find that very confronting, and many
women are very unsafe, and that is just so deeply
challenging and confronting. So we've got a lot of cultural
work to do to fix the attitudes that lead to
that behavior. In a similar i'd hope that the gender
(27:01):
pay gaps started to close faster. All of these vestiges
of sexism and power imbalance that express themselves in so
many systemic ways, whether it's violence in the home, whether
it's being undervalued at work, whether it's harassment on the
street or at work. I want the underlying the value
of women to be better recognized so that we're treated
(27:22):
better and treated equally. I think probably many women want
that also, and it's a job for all of us,
but it's a job for the dudes as well. You
know that we need to address the toxic masculinity that
puts the blinkers on them and makes them think they've
got to be a certain way and we've got to
be a certain way, and it doesn't help either of us.
We need to make sure that all genders are feeling
(27:44):
feeling okay about themselves so they're not now treating others.
To put it in its grossest terms, it's.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Been quite surprising with the first series. The feedback surprising
and also humbling, the feedback I've had from men all
across the world, who even men in their thirties really
was and expecting that dropping into my dams and saying, hey,
thank you for helping to educate me and what it was.
Obviously I knew what it was my mum was going
through it, but I didn't kind of really understand it.
(28:10):
And really, let's face it, if we as women are
confused as to what's happening with us, how must some
men be feeling so thank you for helping to educate
me and also helping equip me so that when my
partner or my best friend or whoever, or a colleague
is going through it, I can help support them in
some small way. And that's possibly, I think being probably
(28:33):
the biggest form of gratification for me so far doing
the podcast. That's major for me to get that sort
of feedback, because you're right, it's not just an issue
for women, It's an issue for everyone.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
And I salute those men who've had the empathy and
the interest to inform themselves, and well done to you
for giving them a kind of a vehicle to learn
a bit more in a safe and easy way for them.
I reckon if men's start talking about this amongst themselves,
that's when we'll see the real change for women, because
you know, the men tend to listen to each other,
(29:07):
don't they, And so we need those strong leaders to
lead with compassion and empathy and to really deconstruct those
gender stereotypes that box them in and end up harming us.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
I actually think it's really exciting this period of time, Larissa.
I really think I feel I can almost taste that
we've got this amazing opportunity to change the course of
what we do, and the Senate Inquiry is a major
part of that.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
It's like put the brakes on. That's enough.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Now we need to recalibrate and look at how this
is going to look in five, ten, fifteen, twenty years
time for our nation and for women and the community.
And I'm excited by it because I know that it's
it's going to only be better and better, and I
think the Senate Inquiry is the first major part of that.
(30:02):
So well done to you, fort like that is part
of your legacy. I hope you realize, Yeah, thank you,
orders And for other women, I still.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Pinch myself that I get to do stuff like this
in my day job. And yeah, it's a real honor.
And I feel so proud of the Senate itself that
it agreed that, yes, we should give women this platform,
we should bloody well listen to what they have to say. So, yeah,
it still gives me tingles. We've got a long way
to go, but you're right, there's so many of us
(30:31):
working and I feel like we are making improvements every day.
We've got to watch for the pushback, and there's that
really worrying trend that some of the community attitude surveys
are picking up lately of young men kind of falling
back into sexist notions. And you know, we all know
some of the Internet sensations, even though they're complete losers,
(30:51):
are influencing young men to have those toxic sexist attitudes.
So we really do need to address that as a community.
Notwithstanding that kind of I think last minute pushback feels
that we are making positive change. We just need to
keep at it and not give up and have more
women empowered in roles where they're seen by other young girls.
(31:13):
You know, you can't be what you can't see, as
the saying goes, So we need more women in those
senior roles right across it, whether it's a sport fielder,
it's the business world, whether it's they're not for profit
sector or politics. Yeah, we got this.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
And if you like this episode, download my season one
interview with Grace malloy from Menopause Friendly Australia, who's pushing
for workplaces to create an open, inclusive and supportive culture
regarding menopause. Join me in episode three with Trady Brett Hinton.
Yes that's right, a bloke talking women's stuff. Brett heads
(31:48):
up the Man Up for Endo campaign and has something
to say about awareness for endometriosis, a condition that impacts
one in seven Aussie women, including me. He's leading the
way in helping transform the way we speak about health
issues affecting women and its proactive attitudes like his that
are benefiting the discussions around perimenopause and menopause. I'm Patrina
(32:13):
Jones and this is my podcast, Rage Against the
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Menopause, Rage Against the Menopause.
You know.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
The menopause club is a big one around the globe.
It'll impact one point two billion women by twenty thirty.
And while our experiences are as unique as we all are,
research suggests our culture and even where we live may
affect our experiences. In societies where age is more revered,
menopausal symptoms are far less bothersome, whereas where older is
(00:23):
equated with old age, symptoms can be more devastating. In Australia,
menopause can be seen as a time to dread and
to navigate in silence. It's fair to say we're lagging
behind other countries. However, the recent Senate Inquiry into menopause
broke new ground in shining the spotlight on our current
state of play. It's a good starting marker in determining
(00:47):
the future roadmap in care. The Greens Party secured support
to establish the inquiry to better understand the health and
economic impacts of menopause. It was instigated by now leaders
Senator Larissa Waters, a trailblazer in her own right.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Menopause, It's coming for you no matter what. Let's build
a village of support.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Why is it so damn hot in here?
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Menopause is so hot right now.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
I think I'm finally in menopause.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Women just want to feel hurt. Rage Against the Menopause. Well,
my next.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Guest I'm extremely excited about it is Green's leader, Senator
Larissa Waters. Welcome to Rage Against the Menopause.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to
be here.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
You reached out to me. I was on the project
last year. Your people reached out to me and said, hey,
Larissa would love to be on the podcast, and I
thought I would love to have you some So thrilled
that you've given me time. And you were just saying
before we hit record that you were in Canberra till
what time.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Oh we left the chamber at about seven pm Canberra time,
and I had to get home to Brisbane to my
lovely children, who are like body's kids, lovely and extraordinarily demanding.
I'm doing the juggle that many of us do.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
That's the thing, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
It's just we're career women, but we're also mums, and
we're daughters in we're wives and partners.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Yeah, and we're very busy and sometimes we're very tired,
but we try to remain cheerful.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Were your girls are seven and fifteen. You were saying
you're up a couple of times through the night. He
never stops, does it.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
No, a little one was cold because we've had a
heatwave here in me Angela, Brisbane, where I'm joining you from.
But of course it's all of a sudden that's gotten
cold and rainy.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
So oh are you kidding?
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Almost like the climate's changing. Who knew, Larissa?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
You are a trailblazer in women's rights and protections and
this is nothing new that you would start the Senate
inquiry into menopause because there was an incident in Federal
Parliament that caused a bit of a stir as we
talk about your daughters when one was a baby.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Tell us about that.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Oh, we're going back a little while now, So she
was this is seven and a half years ago, because
littlest one is that old now, and I was in office.
I've been I was elected in twenty ten, so I've
been in the parliament for quite some time and was
lucky enough to have a second child, and so I
did so whilst trying to juggle my work duties. And
(03:17):
like any mum, you do your best to try to
make sure you can breastfeed above and sometimes it works,
sometimes it doesn't. But I was lucky and so Bubba
was super hungry, and it was a parliamentary sitting day
and we have parts of the day where you have
to be in the chamber because you might vote at
any minute, and it was one of those parts and
my partner at the time was messaging, soon, she's getting
really hungry, honey, I'm not shocking up her off my shonger.
(03:40):
She's gonna scream. So I said, right, we'll bring her in.
I'll pop her on the boob and get my job done,
both of them at the same time. And unfortunately, I
was the first person to do that in federal Parliament,
which is insane because we've had a federal Parliament for
more than one hundred and twenty years and it's pretty
clear that we haven't had enough mums or women generally
in that parliament. But thankfully we've had quite a few
(04:02):
other little bubbers in the chamber since then, so it
feels like slowly parliament's entury.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
It broke the mold. What sort of sort of flack.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Did you cop for doing that? At the time, I
know it was like headline news.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yeah, it was really mixed pats. I had a lot
of support, obviously from my Green's colleagues and from some
of the nicer folk in the chamber, and that there's
lots of those. There were a few of the older
white gentlemen at the time. Thankfully some of those have
retired now, but there was a few archaic, bordering on paternalistic,
sexist reactions from some of them that I found deeply inappropriate.
(04:41):
And then of course there were people on the internet
that had strong views. And I acknowledge that I'm lucky.
I'm in a job where I am able to multitask.
I am able to breastfeed little one and do my
job at the same time, and I acknowledge not everyone
can do that. But I think it's important to try
to break down whatever barriers are in your power to
try to break down. And I'm really proud that one
(05:01):
of the things that people stopped me at the shops
or in the street about is to say, I felt
really empowered when you did that, and it gave me
the confidence to feed my little one wherever I was,
which still gives me shivers. It makes me feel really
proud that I was able to help other women just
feel safer to do what they want to do.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Yeah, and I think, and that's why I'm doing the podcast.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
I see that as part of my legacy to my
daughter who's fourteen. But that's the thing. If we're sharing
our lived experiences, what it does is it gives other
women license to feel that they can talk about their
experience with Perry and menopause personally. Obviously you have instigated
(05:45):
or established consensus support for the Menopause Inquiry, but personally
for you, is that something that you're tackling at the moment.
Are you going through perimenopause? Are you menopause?
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Or yeah, look very much so. So I admit to
shameless self interest in setting up a Senate inquiry into this,
And again I'm fortunate that I'm in a position where
I've got the ability to instigate something like that. And
the Senate inquiry is where the whole of the Chamber
or you know, selected representatives decide being going to look
at a topic and then decide to gather evidence from
(06:17):
members of the public and from experts, and then write
a report that distills all of that and makes suggestions
to government on what should be done. And the reason
I thought to do. It was I looked around as
I was feeling my own symptoms, and I'll come to
those in a moment. But I looked around and I
realized there's actually not any federal policy about menopause or perimenopause.
(06:38):
There's very little knowledge in the public about this. Often
women themselves aren't really sure what's happening to them. And
we've heard so many stories, including my own, where am
I losing my mind totally? Who am I? Where is
my former sense of confidence or clarity, stability? A whole
range of mental health impacts, and of course a whole
(06:59):
range of physical impacts that are a bit more well known.
And so I was, yeah, I had the ability and
the motivation to suggest the Senate inquiry into this, and
the process was great. We had a whole year of hearings.
We had representatives from all the different political parties, interestingly
all women on the panel, which probably was quite helpful,
although we do need men to engage on this issue.
(07:21):
And in the end, despite our political differences, we all
agreed on some key recommendations. Happened all the round.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
There's a lot of common ground.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
So how many people did you hear from throughout the
inquiry like how many dozens of women?
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Yeah, we got hundreds of submissions from all sorts of people,
from organizations and representative bodies, from medical professionals, and most importantly,
in my view, from ordinary women.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
A couple of them from my guests in the first
Oh How One series, who have been amazing supporters of
the podcast, but gave very valuable evidence as well when
it was their turn to speak.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Look, it was such a privilege to sit there and
hear women be so beautifully honest as often women can be,
and really share what they'd gone through. And I think
there's sometimes quite a bit of stigma about sharing that
you're struggling. To be so much so proud of it
that they were able to weakness, that's right. I felt
(08:22):
so proud that they were able to say, Look, actually
I'm going to be I'm going to be real about
what I'm going through, and that just makes it absolutely
safer for everyone else to admit, oh my god, I've
been struggling as well. What did you do to manage? Oh,
here's what I did. And that strength and support that
you can draw from shared experience nothing beats it. So
I felt that every time we heard from the women
(08:43):
that gave evidence to the inquiry, and I can relate
to aspects of almost everybody's story, and it just, you know,
everyone was fiercely nodding along on the committee. And yeah,
and I think that's why we've come to such strong
recommendations about making sure that doctor get the training that
they need to recognize the symptoms, making sure that women
(09:05):
understand what to look for, because we heard horror stories
about misdiagnoses, and we heard women either said I was
anything wrong with you, Just go home and try to
get some rest, as if women at this age who
were often caring for kids and or older parents and
or working, like as if you've got time to rest,
we'd love to, but hates just happen. So there was
(09:28):
a lot of there was a lot of dismissal of
women's experience by doctors, and then there was also a
lot of doctors that just said, look, I don't have
a clue. We never got any training on this.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Well, that was one of there was twenty five recommend
or actually thirty five, no, twenty five recommendations sorry to
come out of the inquiry, one of which I think
for me was the most startling was that, no wonder
we feel discounted by doctors or doctors perhaps giving you
a script for antidepressants which is totally not what you
need because they get something like and hours, So we're
(10:01):
talking sixty minutes of training in medical school.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
So no wonder we feel like we're floundering.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Absolutely outrageous. We're more than half of the population and
every single one of us will go through perimenopause and menopause. Now,
some people won't have too many symptoms, great, well done.
Then others of us will struggle with some mild to
moderate symptoms, and about twenty percent of us will have
an absolute hell of a time and it will be
really debilitating and affect our ability to keep working and
(10:30):
affect our relationships. So there's clearly a lot of people
that will go through this and yet to have just
one hour. As we heard in the Senate inquiry for
undergraduate doctors to be taught about it really sounds like
no woman was in the room when that curriculum was written,
and that we really need to modernize what our medical
students get taught. And so that was one of the recommendations.
(10:53):
Let's bring it out of dark ages and make sure
that the whole range of women's health experiences, in particular
perimenopause and menopause, is properly taught in undergrad and not
just to future GPS, but to other allied health folk,
to physios, to nurses, to midwives. Let's make sure that
anyone that a woman might have contact with when she's
(11:15):
seeking some medical help knows what to look for and
can then help recommend potential treatments depending on what's right
for that woman.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
I think the trouble is the mindfield of symptoms that
can be perimenopause or menopause as well. And sometimes you know,
I was talking to a girlfriend yesterday and there was
something wrong with my shoulder and I said to her, Oh,
could it be menopause?
Speaker 3 (11:39):
Is it my joints?
Speaker 2 (11:40):
I think there's We're easy to deflect.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Onto that when it may not be that.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
But that's why it's so important for our medical fraternity
to be across it. Why is it that you know
that it's sort of shoved up to now being shoved
to the side. Is it because is it gendered ageism thing?
What is it that we're doing that it's not seen
as important as conception and pregnancy in birth.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
It's so strange, isn't it, Pats that you talk we're
getting better at teaching our school kids about respectful relationships
and about puberty and about pregnancy, but there's nothing about
what happens once you've had a baby. And that's of
course acknowledging that not everyone wants to have children, not
everyone will, so it's almost like we're considered baby making
(12:31):
machines and then that's really all we're good for now.
That may well have been the vibe when those sort
of curricula were written, but we have long moved on
from those archaic notions. So we definitely need to modernize
what we're teaching kids, what we're teaching the future gps
of the world, and what we're teaching women. And I
(12:51):
think part of the reason why it's remained in the
shadows perhaps is probably two key things. I think, you know,
our mothers, maybe all of them speak about this with us.
Some are lucky and have really forthright mums that are
brave and proud, but I think there hasn't been that
sort of mum to daughter sharing and passing on. And
(13:14):
I think also, you know, forty fifty years ago, there
were less of us working, we were at home more
and you know, we just suffered in silence. We just
got on with a job. And these days most of
us are working as well as having car and duties,
and we're bloody busy, and we don't want to be
seen as incompetent because we've fought so hard to get
(13:37):
where we are in our careers. And people, many people
feel just a bit nervous about piping up saying, look,
I'm battling right now. I'll be okay, I'll get through this,
but can you give me a bit of leniency in
the time, you know, for the time being. And so
we really fought against that notion of this stigma and
what to do about that, and so how best to
tackle that in a policy sense. Should we have menopause
(14:00):
leave so that people that twenty percent that really struggle,
they can step out of the workforce, still have some pay,
perhaps it's unpaid leave or a mix, but keep that
connection to the workforce so that they can go back
to work when they've got their symptoms under control and
they're not, you know, not end up having real financial impacts.
(14:21):
Or did people feel a bit nervous saying to their
boss this is what I'm going through. Did they not
want to feel like they might be discriminated against. So
we took all of this marvelous evidence, and you know,
I don't want to have a strong I don't like
telling people what to I think everyone could make up
their own minds. So we ended up recommending let's have
reproductive healthcare leave available to everyone, to women who are
(14:45):
maybe having really bad period pain, maybe having endos such
as yourself, maybe having other reproductive issues. Perhaps it's so
want to go and get their ultry sound because they're
having a bubber. Maybe it's perimenopause and menopause. Let's make
sure that it's the full diversity women's experience. But importantly,
let's let the dudes have a go to because otherwise
they'll complain. Perhaps they want to go get a vi
(15:07):
sect to me, maybe they won't go along to the ultrasound.
Let's make this a leave provision that.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Every even you don't go and do this sperm sample
for IVF or go to a scan with that all
important scan with their partner, you know, when they are pregnant.
All that's right, egg retrieval, all those things there. Yeah,
and we need to part of the picture.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
We need to promote men looking after their health as well,
because we know that many men, you know, keeping under
wraps and that ends up damaging their health even more.
And importantly promote men to being active dads and to
be encouraged by their workplace to go to those sort
of family appointments. So yeah, that's where we ended up landing.
And I think the balls now in the government's court.
But I would hope that any government, no matter what
(15:48):
political party they're from, can see that women deserve this,
that women have shared their experience as part of this
national year long inquiry, and that they want something done
and that their health care is worth it, and that
women deserve that kind of attention from their government.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
We mentioned we touched on the GPS. What were some
of the other shocking sort of revelations for you and
came out of the inquiry?
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Probably two key ones, Pats. One was that we've touched
a bit on the training. One was that one GP
said the only thing I was taught about menopause in
med school was that women were either mad or sad. Now,
what a gross summary acknowledging that menopauseal rage is a thing,
as is depression. And anxiety. So you know, there are
(16:33):
elements of mad or SAD, but what a reductionist. What
an absolutely limited education that is. And the second thing
that was the most confronting PATS was that doctors were
misdiagnosing women. And we heard so many times women share
the mental health challenges that perimenopause and menopause had brought
(16:54):
on for them, even if they hadn't had mental health
challenges before. And we had their gps say either just
you know, have a rest, you just need to do list,
or we had them say, well, here's the prescription for antidepressants.
You just depressed. Here's some he's a fix for that. Now,
many people who suffer from depression do need antidepressants, but
(17:15):
if you're perimenopausal or menopausal, that's a hormonal depression. That's
a different thing which needs a different treatment. And so
MHT menopausal hormone therapy, which is the new name for HRT,
but it's the same thing. Actually, that's the medicine that
you might be needing and that might help you manage
not only the physical symptoms, but the mental health impacts
(17:37):
as well.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
How do you do it?
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Like people ask me when I'm you know, doing breakfast
radio and I'm a mum doing the podcast.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
How do you do it? And it's like if.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
I stopped, if I stopped and thought about it, I'd
probably enough in a fetal position. I don't know, you
just it's what I do. You just you know, I've
done breaking radio for over thirty years. It's just what
you do. Is that your crazy schedule? Do you feel
the same. It's just like it's all about routine, like
how do you and then navigate perimenopause and menopause.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
A bit like your pats. I don't like to examine
it too deeply. On the house of cars might fall over,
But you just get on with it, don't you. We're
busy women, We're capable people. And I like to feel
like I'm making a difference in the world, and so
my work is really important to me, and I feel
really lucky to be able to keep doing it and
to keep pushing for change. It will help people and
protect the planet as well. So that's a real honor
(18:31):
to do it. And you know, I like the intellectual
stimulation that it gives me. But I also love caring
for my family and I'm a single parent and I've
been a single parent, you know quite some time now,
I'm really lucky to have the help of my mum
to look after my girls. I don't think I could
do it without her. Obviously i'd have to pay someone,
but I wouldn't have that same sense of reassurance that
(18:54):
my kids were getting the sort of care and values
that are important to me. So I have a lot
of help. I have one staff who helped me with
my work obligations. And I have a bunch of amazing
girlfriends that when I do get to see them, we're
pour our hearts out to each other, have a good
laugh and feel much stronger and get up and do
it all again the next day.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
Don't you think that's been a big support for me?
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Is the sisterhood is my girlfriends more than if I
was to sit on a psychologist couch, I think, and
being open with them, and it's of support and we
talk about everything. And lately, sort of the last few
years it's been dominated by menopause and I'm sorry, but
the head fuck that comes at menopause.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
It's like a.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Counseling session when we get together and have a couple
of lines and talk about, Hey, I've had a really
hard week or like this week the hot flush is
I know I should have touched what I just said
a couple of weeks ago to a girlfriend.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
You know, I think I'm lucky with the hot flushes,
like I'm getting.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
You jinx yourself that I know.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
And then last weeken like I'm talking like nuclear power
forced flushes. I don't know whether it's getting warmer what
it is, but really like I spoke too soon, because
it's like they've up the ante.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Well, interestingly, perhaps you know the hot flushes are a
signal that you're getting closer towards actual menopause and further
into your perry because what we learned, one of the
things we learned in the inquiry was that one of
the triggers for prescribing MHT for GPS is have you
had a hot flush yet? But interestingly, often the mental
(20:30):
health impacts come first, you know, the sense of self doubt,
the brain fog sometimes, the rage, the creeping sense of anxiety,
the depression, joy, the malaise, the sleep interruptions, a lot
of that which, as you said, can be caused by
other things. And that's why we have doctors, and that's
why they should listen to us and have helped to
(20:51):
work out what the symptoms are up to. But often
the hot flushes don't start until kind of at least
halfway through a bit later on. And so interestingly, one
of the recommendations was we should look at the guidelines
for when you can prescribe air mah T, because if
a woman hasn't had a hot flush yet everything else
points to perimenopause, it may well indeed be perimenopause.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
One of the key problems though with their h T
perats is it's really unaffordable.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
We heard one really really confronting story which was a
woman said, well, I was managing my depression and anxiety,
my menopausal perimenopausal depression and anxiety. I was managing that
well on MHT. I couldn't afford it anymore, and so
I got a pack of Valian which was fifteen dollars
through a pack of fifty. And you know that breaks
my heart in a wealthy nation like ours, when you've
(21:39):
been diagnosed and what medicine you need and you can't
afford to get it. And the doctors themselves said they
really struggled when they knew their patients weren't going to
be able to get the treatment that they actually needed
because they couldn't afford it. Yeah, really really awful, but fixable, fixable.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
By government training. Women deserve more than that, Larissa.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
We do to keep us at out best, we should
be able to afford the health care we need.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
And so many women too, like overrepresented of overrepresentation of
women who end up quitting work. And we touched on earlier.
They've worked decades and decades to get to the point
they're at and then they hit menopause at slams and
in the face it's like, actually can't do this anymore.
And it's not that you can't do it, it's just
(22:23):
you need you need help.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Yeah, and we heard how to provide it. So many
stories of that. Perats really seen your women. We heard
some really powerful evidence in the inquiry from an anethetist
who was representing the you know, the representative body for
other aetheists. And you know, that's a pretty impactful job.
You want to be you want to be feeling like
(22:45):
you've got confidence in the decision that you're making because
because someone's life is in your hands. And so we
heard that that senior women like that were just finding
themselves so challenged either physically or mentally or both by perimenopause,
that they were taking less duties, or they were dropping
down to part time, or they weren't going for that promotion,
or worst case scenario, they were just tapping out and saying, look,
(23:08):
I'll just go, you know, work in a nursery or something.
Just just have a break for a while now. So
people that can afford to make that decision, you know,
that's less of an impact. But generally people can't afford
to make that decision, and you pay for it. In retirement,
we know women retire with less than men anyway, that
two thirds as much. And the amount of women retiring
(23:28):
into poverty, particularly after a lifetime of unpaid care, is
really concerning. And so women's financial security is a big deal,
and perimenopause and menopause is part of helping with that.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Homelessness and women over fifty is a major issue. It
really is their marriages have ended, and they've perhaps given
up work if they worked at all when their first
child was born, so they've worked in the home and
they've got no backup, and that's the relationship and they're
(24:00):
upshit creek base.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
That's right, they've worked their whole damn lives. Yeah, but
the system didn't see the work that they did as valuable,
didn't pay them for all of that work, even though
it enabled others to do paid work and it helped
our whole community keep functioning. Yeah, valuing women's unpaid labor
is an unfinished business for me in Parliament. We could
(24:22):
be doing so much more to value that work because
it is absolutely crucial, and you're so right that women
are copying that disproportionately. And women over fifty five until
about a year ago had been the fastest growing cohort
of people in peril of homelessness. But I just checked
in with the Department last end of twenty twenty four
(24:44):
and now it's actually women over thirty four, So that
kind of middle cohort is now have an increasing risk
of homelessness as well. And the similar sorts of reasons.
It's relationship breakdown, the fact that the work that women
do when we are getting paid, we're still getting paid. Yes,
because women dominating fields that aren't seen as important as
the fields that the men dominating, you know, childcare, nursing, teaching,
(25:08):
rather than construction or mining. So there's just a whole
lot of systemic sexism still that's leading to that outcomes
for women. And you know, there's a lot of people
trying to fix that. There's quite a few men trying
to fix that too, and so that Dan well should
there's still a long way to go.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
If there's women listening that feel like they need support
or perhaps feel like they want to advocate for other women,
would you recommend they go to their local member.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Is that always a good tact?
Speaker 1 (25:37):
I think that's a great suggestion, Pats. Firstly, of course,
reach out to your girlfriends because they're probably feeling a
version of what you're feeling, and you'll find that once
the first person starts the conversation. If your friends are
anything like mine, you'll all be in phusing. So yeah,
find support in your networks, and whether that's just your
friends or whether it's professional support, if you need it,
(25:58):
go and talk to your doctor. In terms of fixing
the affordability of medicine and your rights at work, that
is something for government. So reaching out to your local
member of parliament. You can call them or just email them,
whatever time of night or day, and just share your
personal experience and ask them what they're going to do
to help you, and that you actually have that right
to be helped, that you matter, and that policy should
(26:20):
be made for you, and that you deserve to have
a system that works for you and supports you. We
all deserve that.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Where would you hope that we are I'm going to
give you like a long range if you had like
a wish in like five years time, where would you
hope that we as a country are at.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
That's a big question. In terms of for women, I'd
hope that we'd finally started to reduce the rates of
violence against women and children, because in recent years it's
gone up, and I find that very confronting, and many
women are very unsafe, and that is just so deeply
challenging and confronting. So we've got a lot of cultural
work to do to fix the attitudes that lead to
that behavior. In a similar i'd hope that the gender
(27:01):
pay gaps started to close faster. All of these vestiges
of sexism and power imbalance that express themselves in so
many systemic ways, whether it's violence in the home, whether
it's being undervalued at work, whether it's harassment on the
street or at work. I want the underlying the value
of women to be better recognized so that we're treated
(27:22):
better and treated equally. I think probably many women want
that also, and it's a job for all of us,
but it's a job for the dudes as well. You
know that we need to address the toxic masculinity that
puts the blinkers on them and makes them think they've
got to be a certain way and we've got to
be a certain way, and it doesn't help either of us.
We need to make sure that all genders are feeling
(27:44):
feeling okay about themselves so they're not now treating others.
To put it in its grossest terms, it's.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Been quite surprising with the first series. The feedback surprising
and also humbling, the feedback I've had from men all
across the world, who even men in their thirties really
was and expecting that dropping into my dams and saying, hey,
thank you for helping to educate me and what it was.
Obviously I knew what it was my mum was going
through it, but I didn't kind of really understand it.
(28:10):
And really, let's face it, if we as women are
confused as to what's happening with us, how must some
men be feeling so thank you for helping to educate
me and also helping equip me so that when my
partner or my best friend or whoever, or a colleague
is going through it, I can help support them in
some small way. And that's possibly, I think being probably
(28:33):
the biggest form of gratification for me so far doing
the podcast. That's major for me to get that sort
of feedback, because you're right, it's not just an issue
for women, It's an issue for everyone.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
And I salute those men who've had the empathy and
the interest to inform themselves, and well done to you
for giving them a kind of a vehicle to learn
a bit more in a safe and easy way for them.
I reckon if men's start talking about this amongst themselves,
that's when we'll see the real change for women, because
you know, the men tend to listen to each other,
(29:07):
don't they, And so we need those strong leaders to
lead with compassion and empathy and to really deconstruct those
gender stereotypes that box them in and end up harming us.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
I actually think it's really exciting this period of time, Larissa.
I really think I feel I can almost taste that
we've got this amazing opportunity to change the course of
what we do, and the Senate Inquiry is a major
part of that.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
It's like put the brakes on. That's enough.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Now we need to recalibrate and look at how this
is going to look in five, ten, fifteen, twenty years
time for our nation and for women and the community.
And I'm excited by it because I know that it's
it's going to only be better and better, and I
think the Senate Inquiry is the first major part of that.
(30:02):
So well done to you, fort like that is part
of your legacy. I hope you realize, Yeah, thank you,
orders And for other women, I still.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Pinch myself that I get to do stuff like this
in my day job. And yeah, it's a real honor.
And I feel so proud of the Senate itself that
it agreed that, yes, we should give women this platform,
we should bloody well listen to what they have to say. So, yeah,
it still gives me tingles. We've got a long way
to go, but you're right, there's so many of us
(30:31):
working and I feel like we are making improvements every day.
We've got to watch for the pushback, and there's that
really worrying trend that some of the community attitude surveys
are picking up lately of young men kind of falling
back into sexist notions. And you know, we all know
some of the Internet sensations, even though they're complete losers,
(30:51):
are influencing young men to have those toxic sexist attitudes.
So we really do need to address that as a community.
Notwithstanding that kind of I think last minute pushback feels
that we are making positive change. We just need to
keep at it and not give up and have more
women empowered in roles where they're seen by other young girls.
(31:13):
You know, you can't be what you can't see, as
the saying goes, So we need more women in those
senior roles right across it, whether it's a sport fielder,
it's the business world, whether it's they're not for profit
sector or politics. Yeah, we got this.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
And if you like this episode, download my season one
interview with Grace malloy from Menopause Friendly Australia, who's pushing
for workplaces to create an open, inclusive and supportive culture
regarding menopause. Join me in episode three with Trady Brett Hinton.
Yes that's right, a bloke talking women's stuff. Brett heads
(31:48):
up the Man Up for Endo campaign and has something
to say about awareness for endometriosis, a condition that impacts
one in seven Aussie women, including me. He's leading the
way in helping transform the way we speak about health
issues affecting women and its proactive attitudes like his that
are benefiting the discussions around perimenopause and menopause. I'm Patrina
(32:13):
Jones and this is my podcast, Rage Against the
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Menopause, Rage Against the Menopause.
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