December 27, 2024 • 26 mins
We’re back with more jaw-dropping revelations from Emily Lynn Paulson, the million-dollar MLM insider who climbed to the top—only to reveal the truth hiding behind the glittering promises. In Part 2, Emily takes us deeper into the manipulative tactics MLMs use to hook you, from love bombing and trauma bonding to financial exploitation and cult-like control. Victoria Devine doesn’t hold back as they unpack the shocking psychology behind these schemes and how they blur the lines between business, friendships, and even faith. If you thought Part 1 was juicy, just wait till you hear this one!
Acknowledgement of Country By Natarsha Bamblett aka Queen Acknowledgements.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, my name's Santasha Nabananga Bamblet. I'm a proud yr
the Order KERNI Whoaltbury and a waddery woman. And before
we get started on She's on the Money podcast, I
would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land
of which this podcast is recorded on a wondery country,
acknowledging the elders, the ancestors and the next generation coming
(00:22):
through as this podcast is about connecting, empowering, knowledge sharing
and the storytelling of you to make a difference for
today and lasting impact for tomorrow. Let's get into it.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
She's on the Money, She's on the Money.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Hello, and welcome to She's on the Money.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
The podcast that's all about empowering you to make informed
financial decisions, not emotional ones, and definitely not decisions based
on hehan messages in your DMS. I'm Victoria Devine, finance expert,
MLM exposer and the person who's here to help you
navigate all the sneaky traps designed to separate you from
your hard earned cash. Today is part two of our
(01:22):
very special episode. We are chatting to Emily Lynn Paulson,
an actual unicorn million dollar earner in an MLM, if
you haven't listened to part one yet, where she gave
us a very cheeky behind the scenes look at the
business side of MLM's hit pause my friend, right now,
head back and give it a listen. Trust me, you're
going to want the full story. But if you've already listened,
(01:45):
stick around today we are going deeper. We're diving into
the psychological tactics MLMs used to hook you, keep you,
and then convince you that it's all your fault when
things go sideways. It's time to pull back the curtains
and get into the why behind the decisions people make
when it comes to these schemes.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
So let's go. Let's flip on over.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
To the psychology side of things, because I feel like
we're starting to delve into that, he said, She said
emlms are designed to, I guess, make hitting that first
rank basically effortless, like and then they jump up and
down and go, oh my god, you made it, like
look how easy it is.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
This is so.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
Good, And you get that instant dopamine hit and it
kind of keeps you hooked. Can you remember what it
felt like when you hit your first milestone? So you
decided to sign up, and you were like, all right.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
I could do this. How did you feel? You know,
it was kind.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
Of double edged because I signed up, and then as
soon as I signed up again, I was totally ignorant,
didn't know what I was doing. I kind of ran
with it. I met with a friend that night after
I signed up, and I was like, hey, I bought
this skincare stuff, like I don't know what I'm doing,
and she's like, oh, I'll do it with you. So
like she literally seemed up that first day, right, And
(02:58):
so the next there was a post on Facebook like
outing me from my upline. You know, Emily signed up,
she started her business, and she's already hit her first promotion,
and so here I am like, like I felt a
little cringe that she put that out there without my permission.
And then I had all of these people, all reps
(03:21):
for the company, posting underneath like congratulations, congratulations, congratulations. All
these new friends, all these new followers. It's very intoxicating, right,
It's like you said, it's that dopamine hit. And so
it was like, oh, that was easy. I could do
that again, Like I could do more of that. And
then you start getting yifs. It's the love bombing just
off the bat.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
It's actually insane because I don't think it's a sacred
If you follow me on my personal Instagram, you know
I've signed up to an MLM under a fake name,
and I have been.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Doing that, and that happened to me.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
I hit my first one and I was mortified that
they're tagging me in the same One day, I'll share
who I was and what I joined under. But they
fully love bomb you. And you mentioned a lot in
the book the intense love bombing that happens when someone
joins an MLM, and like, I guess that's a good
example of it. You get constant praise and attention and
(04:12):
some validation, and that's really sexy and we want more
of that. How did that level of affection impact you
early on? And I guess when did it start to
feel a little bit less genuine?
Speaker 5 (04:23):
When at first it feels genuine because you know, the
person I joined with someone from high school. I wasn't
friends with her, we didn't know each other well. But
then it was like, Okay, she's someone I know, she
is someone from my hometown. Like I kind of felt
that instant kinship. And then by proximity, you're spending a
lot of time, whether it's across the zoom screen or
(04:45):
in a Facebook group, you're spending a lot of time
in proximity with these people, more than you're probably spending
with people in your real life, you know. And you're
really taught to share personal things and connect over personal
things and how hard life is as mom and you know,
blah blah blah. It's so it's kind of like trauma bonding.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
Early, which is terrifying, and it's a genuine tactic that
they are using as trauma bonding.
Speaker 5 (05:10):
Yeah, yeah, And I think it also is by nature.
MLMs are mostly women, as like eighty five to ninety
percent women, and so women are more connected on an
emotional level. And so when you already have that baked
in to a financial transaction where people are making money
off of you and you're making money off of people,
(05:30):
it's just it's going to be exploited. And so when
you're used to getting all these this attention and you're
on these top ten lists and you're being asked to
speak and then maybe a new shiny penny rolls around.
Someone else comes in quick and makes their first promotion
and gets a lot of attention, like the spotlight gets
taken off of you, and and so there's just automatic
(05:53):
like clause coming out, there's automatic jealousy. You're being ranked
publicly among other people all of the time, You're being
put on top ten lists by the company by different
team leaders all of the time. So it's just kind
of a breeding ground for hostility.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
Really yeah, yah yak yak, And I guess this love
bombing and we just touched on trauma bonding. Those are
actually two tactics that are used by cults to keep
people engaged and involved and consistently feeling like their cult
is their home. And you have said before that an
(06:32):
MLM is like a cult, Like I guess a lot
of people say that. I say that lots of people do.
I want to know what is the most jaw dropping
I guess culty behavior that you saw and how it
kind of messed with people's lives.
Speaker 5 (06:45):
I mean, I think the financial exploitation we've talked about.
There's a lot of financial exploitation, but you know, and
like the emotional exploitation with friendship love bombing, I think
the worst, in my opinion is the like you touched
on a little bit the spiritual manipulation religious manipulation, and I,
thankfully I wasn't in a lot of that. Thankfully my upline.
(07:08):
You know, nobody was super religious in my team, but
I knew people, you know, crossline or whatever, who I
did you know, events with, who were very manipulated, who
were like forced to go to a different church, they
had to pray before events. And so it throws in
this extra layer of not only are you not succeeding
(07:30):
because you're not working hard enough, but you're also not
devoted enough to Jesus or you know, you're not thankful enough,
you're grateful enough to God. And that's I think really
best up in a lot of ways.
Speaker 4 (07:42):
Yeah, and that's what kind of scares me as well,
because you are blurring the lines between your spiritual life,
your home life, your work life. That then when you
decide to leave, you're left absolutely high and dry. Immediately
you've gone from what I would say, you know, regardless
of the fact that a lot of it was not genuine,
(08:05):
you go from feeling very supported to being completely isolated
and on your own. So a lot of people they
know they want to leave, but they don't want to
leave because they don't want to lose that connection. They
don't want to lose their friends or their so called friends.
And then to add religion to that, like, what are
you going to do? Leave your religion like that to
me is absolutely insane. How do multi level marketing businesses?
(08:30):
I guess use dopamine hits because obviously there's lots of
them built in. Like the people that run multi level
marketing businesses. Through all of my research, I've realized they're
not skincare experts like Mona right, good example, they do
hair care and they do skincare. The founders of Money
are not hair care or skincare people at all. In fact,
(08:51):
they have a very rich history in network marketing and
multi level marketing business building, and they have just seen
that hair care skincare is incredibly popular with the women
that are the best victims, And so I think we
might go down that route. Let's create a haircare skin
care line with all of these wild you know, things
that we can say about them that no one can
(09:12):
really validate, and then we are going to recruit all
of these women underneath. But to keep them involved, we
actually need to give them consistent gratification and consistent dopamine hits.
And I feel like it's quite clear that through their
model they use it to hook you like an addiction.
And you've spoken about this in your book. How does
their structure keep you chasing that next high?
Speaker 5 (09:35):
Yeah, because they have hierarchy built in everywhere. You know,
not only you join an upline, who then is like
your master, who you have to take information from and
distill it down and then recruit other people and tell them,
you know, like a baby bird. You've got to feed
them the information. So you've got this hierarchy. But then
there's different levels, and you know, you promote to meet
(09:57):
these levels, and every time you get there, there's some
sort of it's like a constant game of like candy
crush or something, and.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
I love candy Crush. I would have been the worst.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
I'm so glad, honestly, Emily, I see so much of
me and you like, I just go. You know what,
if someone had given me that opportunity and I didn't
know any better, I would have loved it. It's like gammification.
I would have been all over it.
Speaker 5 (10:19):
It is. It's like analogue damification. That's exactly what it
is where they send you little gifts and just when
you start to feel a little bit like, oh, my
sales aren't good, they're like, we're going to have a
sale this month, and you know, you get a free
whatever for every one of these that you sell. And
it's just constantly built in so you have something to
look forward to. And they plan the convention. It's six
(10:42):
months in advance and you have to start like making
your way to advancing to earn certain gifts at convention.
They just make it a year long thing and then
during the month there's different goals. You know, every month
you have to read up to the same title. Like
it starts over every month. It's not like you get
to a rank and then you're there. You have to
(11:02):
do it every month. It's just a constant hamster wheel.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
And the higher you climb, from what I can say,
the more pressure you have on you to spend like
first class lights assistance. This idea of retiring your husband
that everyone wants to talk about, how did projecting that
lifestyle keep you stock even when I guess it wasn't
financially sustainable?
Speaker 5 (11:25):
Yeah, I mean, you know that's one thing when people ask,
like about the car and how the car is not
really free. You actually have to buy the car, right,
the free car.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
Yeah, and it has to be white. It has to
be a white range Drover, absolutely, And people have asked me.
Speaker 5 (11:38):
Like, well, why get it then, if it's such a
financial drain, why get it? Well? Can you imagine? You know,
you see all over social media like so and so
earned her Lexus and then you're not driving the car.
So it's almost like you're forced, your shamed into spending
and you don't want your downline thinking like well, where
are you flying in coach when so and so is
flying in first class? Or why are you doing this
(12:00):
when she's doing this. It's the comparison where you have
to look like this is aspirational and if you don't
earn the trip and you're not there, well, your team's
not going to feel motivated to want to try and
earn it. And so you do feel pressure to buy
stuff and to fit in and have the shoes that
kind of match everybody else. And that's why when people
(12:22):
say like, oh, well, you know, what what did you
do with all the money, It's like it was constantly
going back in. The more you made, the more you
were expected to spend all of the time, and even
if it wasn't over, it was between the lines. You know,
what gifts are you going to give your people who
promote to level five? What retreat are you going to
take your team on? And if you're not doing it well,
(12:44):
why is someone going to want to be on your team.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
It's a lot of pressure.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
It sounds like we're going to take a really quick break,
but don't go anywhere, because I've got so many more
juicy questions.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
All right way up back.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
And I feel like you were thankfully also not thankfully,
like I'm glad that you made it to the top,
so that we got you fighting the good fight against
multi level marketing businesses now. But you've said that a
lot of consultants are often presenting a life of success
that's a little bit more like illusion rather than reality.
I want to know, what's the wildest thing you've seen
(13:21):
someone do. I feel like you were in a lucky
position where you had the income coming in, so like
if you were spending it, okay, but like, what did
you see someone do to kind of like fake the
dream to keep it alive?
Speaker 5 (13:34):
Yeah, I mean I think one of the cringiest things
was something that a lot of people and everyone did.
This is like you pose next to your uplines lexus, right,
So I was like, this is what my upline earnests,
Like what do you haven't earned it? Like what are
you talking about? You know, it was this aspirational thing.
And then also the posting of paychecks. Sure you've seen
(13:54):
tons of that where they're like, oh, I got my
monthly check or whatever, and then it's xed out.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Yeah, I saw one the other day.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
It actually I forgot to screenshot it, and then when
I went back, they'd removed it. Because like, I have
an account where I follow all the MLM girlies just
to keep up with the goss, and one girl had
done it, but she clearly moved her photo so the
exes were not in the right spot and she's like
the caption was, oh my god, I got my monthly paycheck.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
I'm so grateful for whatever. I don't even care. But
it was.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Twenty three dollars and like forty cents, and I was.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
Like, oh, that's embarrassing.
Speaker 5 (14:27):
Yeah. Yeah, it'll be like the right number of numbers,
but they'll cover up where the decimal point is or whatever,
so it looks like way more one hundred percent, and
even if it was like even if it was one
thousand dollars, like again, subtract everything they're spending, which is
probably close to one thousand dollars. Tax is, like how
much should they spend to go on that trip? It
never accounts for that, But.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
The trip was free Emily, they earned that trip.
Speaker 5 (14:53):
Which and then they get to pay for it at
the end of the year. Right, it's added as income.
That's the other thing that of course I didn't know
why would I, But when you get to the end
of the year and you get your ten ninety nine
statement and it's like, you know, you have your money
that you actually are into dollars and then at the
end it's like, you know, whatever for leave it on
bag and that's added as income.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
And that happens in Australia too when we get our
tax statements, because they do give you a tax statement
because surprise, surprise, it's actually not your own business, because
they have to issue you with your own tax statement
because they've done all of their maths in the background,
and you have like your non monetary income that needs
to be disclosed and if you've been gifted anything.
Speaker 5 (15:36):
And you don't get to write it off exactly, they
already wrote it off. You don't get to write it off.
Speaker 4 (15:42):
You just have to pay tax on that quote income
that you achieved and it's not actually income, So you're
paying for something that you thought was free.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
Yeah, is it great to get a purse? Sure? Can
you pay your rent with that? No? So there's a
lot of people who they end up getting pushed over
the threshole of having to file quarterly taxes in the US.
You know, it's over a certain amount yet to fail quarterly,
and they didn't know that because they were like making
a couple hundred bucks a month, but because they went
(16:12):
on this trip that was added as income. Then they
get this ten thousand dollars fine from the IRS because
they didn't file quarterly taxes. And I heard this story
over and over and over because how would you know?
Speaker 4 (16:23):
But the MLM is not going to tell you that
because that's not sexy, and that's your problem. Remember, it's
your business. You need to work out your own taxes.
That's not their responsibility. That is all honestly outrageous, but
one of the most outrageous things that I read in
your book.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
I nearly threw it across the room.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Emily, Oh my lord, I like put it down in
bed and I looked at my husband and I was like,
you're not going to believe this, and he was.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
Like, all right, laid on me.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
What is it in your book? You talk about your
cancer diagnosis and then how the multi level marketing business
encouraged you to use that as a selling point. That
is a deeply personal and very vulnerable time to be
going through for them to be like great sales, like
(17:13):
fantastic selling point. Can you walk us through what happened
and how that made you feel?
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Because that was a lot Yeah.
Speaker 5 (17:22):
I think again, this is something that's preemptively trained into you,
like a lot of things, just like how they'll say, oh,
you'll have a lot of haters and you'll get a
lot of people saying no to you. And here's all
the talking points like preemptive right, you are from the
beginning again, you're doing all that love bombing. You're telling
you like deeply personal stories. You're talking about your trials
(17:42):
and tribulations. And when you go to events you hear
people's sob stories. It's the rags to riches it's the
pain to profit, right. Those are the stories you always hear,
and so this is just cooked into your brain. And
so when something troubling comes up, like when some one
you know, their husband who's a firefighter die is in
(18:03):
a fire, well, the company is right on that to
be like, oh gosh, you know you really need the
money right now. You know you could use this as
a way to earn money. Ew no, but it sounds like, oh, yeah,
you're right, I have my own business. This would be
a good way to help. It's really hard to explain
when you're out of it because that's one of those
things people are like, well, that's really gross. So I'm like, yeah,
(18:26):
it is, and it seems like the most natural thing
to do when that is the sea you're swimming in,
when you are around all of this quote unquote charity
again the air quotes. That's not charitable. It feels like
you're doing a very good thing.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
It's actually insane to me that they literally take advantage
of every situation, like you're right, maybe you did need
some money during that period of time. But the way
that they manipulate that. I have a scene it time
and time again here in Australia, like, oh it actually, yeah,
I did want to throw your book. I'm so sorry,
(19:03):
Like I wouldn't have heard it, but like I wanted
to throw it across the room and be like this
is ridiculous, like the fact that this was normal and
that you've exposed it, right, that's so fantastic. But it's
still going on, and they're like, I'm sure you've been
absolutely outcast. You've been like you've been kicked out of
the Church of MLMs, right, oh yeah, oh yeah, So
(19:25):
talk to me about that process, because I feel like
the second you start being one of the quote haters,
you like, went from being their queen to i would say,
being exiled and they wanted to put you on an
island in the middle of the Pacific and never hear
from you again.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
What was that like?
Speaker 5 (19:41):
So my process was kind of interesting because it was
twenty nineteen where I was like, ooh, where I really
you know again, I'd had my team do like profit
loss statements, and where I got to the point where
I'm like, no, all of these people are doing the
work and they are not having the success that I
had had, and I knew it was a system. So
I was like I'm turning everything off. I'm not selling anymore.
(20:04):
I'm just going to slowly back away. So I was
very transparent with my upline who brought me in, like,
you know what, I love you, thank you for this opportunity.
I'm just I'm not going to do this anymore. And
I kind of thought I would like silently collect a
check until it dissolved and went away. And then COVID happened,
and I mean the off the wall like the predatory
(20:28):
posts and comments and trying to use the pandemic to
recruit people was so gross to me. Again, I sold nothing,
did nothing, and yet I still hit the top rank
of the company that year. And that's when I was like,
this system is so rigged, this is so messed up.
And I quit. So by that time I had been
so off the radar for so long. It really wasn't
(20:50):
a huge surprise to anyone, but I fully terminated. But
when my book announcement came out.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Oh they would have rioted, it was.
Speaker 5 (21:00):
Oh they I had messages and calls like I can't
believe you're going to talk about this? Are you going
to talk about me? You know, there were a lot
of people going on the offense, like you're not going
to tell about this and about this, about this, and no,
I am very afraid of like what I was going
to say. So that's really when the clause came out,
where it was like, you know, you did all of
this stuff and now you're going to profit off it
(21:21):
with a book or whatever. You know, It's like yeah,
I am yeah. So anyway, that's really when the clause
came out. So I think by the time I was
like brave enough to talk about it, I had been
out much longer than I was out, if that makes sense,
Like I had backed away for so long, and I
think that was an advantage to me, and I that's
(21:43):
the number one thing I do tell other people. It's like, Okay,
you made the realization. Obviously not everyone can just immediately quit,
you know, if they're making money, you know, figure out
an exit strategy and slowly back away. You know, have
a conversation with the people on your team. Stop posting,
stop promoting, and you know you can kind of get
(22:04):
out that way. And the more you back away. And
I think COVID helps in this situation too. That I
couldn't go to conventions, I couldn't be around people I
couldn't be indoctrinated.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Yeah, that's pretty lucky.
Speaker 5 (22:13):
Yeah, when you take yourself out of that bubble, you
really can start to see a lot of realizations come
to the service. When that happens, too.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
It's absolutely insane to me, Like it drives me nuts
because I think the position that I'm sitting in, I
just want the best for women, and I think we
also want the best for ourselves, and that's why we
get involved in these things because it sounded like a
great opportunity at the time, and realizing that it's not
the opportunity you thought it was can be incredibly confronting.
(22:42):
And I'm sure it was. But what's something that you
would tell someone who's still involved in an MLM, because
I know they're going to listen, like I can't wait,
Like hi, babies, Like I know you're all watching on
you know. I have had a plethora of them send
me messages being like you're going to hear from head,
you're going to get a safe and desist, you're going
(23:02):
to get sued, And I'm like, okay, let's.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Go for what for what?
Speaker 5 (23:08):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (23:09):
What would you say?
Speaker 6 (23:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (23:11):
What I usually tell people is I say you know, slowly,
you know, do a profit loss statement. It's the first
thing to tell people to do, and all of your expenses.
Really write down all of the time that you're working
and do some math, do a little bit of math,
figure out what you're making per hour, and that for
a lot of people that is enough. They're like, oh
my god, this is not worth my time? What am
I doing? And then it's usually like, how do I
(23:33):
tell my upline? You know, and again like, just be honest,
I'm not making any money. I don't care if it's
my fault. I don't care if you tell me it's
my fault. A lot of it's just unlearning the things
you've been told and asking yourself like why do I
believe this? Who told me this? And who is benefiting
from this? Right? Because if your upline wants you to
(23:54):
stay in and they're encouraging you to stay in, what's
the reason. Do they really believe in you, do they
really want the best for you? Or they're making money
off of you. They're making money off of you, So
go to outside sources. Really do the math, like get
actual critical thinking skills and think about what you're doing.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
It drives me insane.
Speaker 5 (24:13):
Yeah, And I think the sunk cost fallacy is one
thing people are whether it's friends, time or money. I
put so much into this, how can they leave now?
And you just do like you just.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
Do well you do.
Speaker 4 (24:28):
And I get that because you don't want to just go, oh, well,
that was all a waste, like you want to make
the most of it. But you're throwing good money after
bad And something that my dad told me once, he said,
the sooner you get off the train, the cheaper the
return ride home. And I think that that is a
really good analogy to go, all right, well, the longer
you stay on the train, the more it's going to
(24:49):
cost you to come back home. And I think that
that's a really important thing to remember. I have taken
up a lot of your time.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
Emily.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
Thank you so much for chatting with us today sharing
your story. It's been really fun, really pervy, but also
kind of really concerning your honesty and insight honestly eye opening,
and not to mention it is so important for anyone
who's ever been I guess drawn into the MLM world
or you know someone that has. I feel like we
all know someone who's doing MLM. I get so many messages,
(25:18):
and I'm sure you do of like, oh my god, Victoria,
you're never going to believe this.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
My cousin signed up and I just.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
Know Christmas is going to be so awkward now, and
you're just like, oh, I.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Feel for you. But it's been a pleasure. Thank you
so much for joining us.
Speaker 5 (25:31):
Thanks Victoria, of course.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
For anyone listening, Emily's book Hayhun Sales, Sisterhood and Supremacy
and the Other Lies behind Multi Level Marketing is a
must read. Just don't throw it at your husband. It
dives even deeper into her experiences and breaks down the
truth behind these business models. I'm going to put a
link in our show notes so that you can check
it out. And if you know someone who needs to
(25:53):
hear this, I would love it if you shared it
with them. Let's keep saving women from these dodgy schemes
and empower wowing them with the truth. The advice shared
on She's on the Money is general in nature and
does not consider your individual circumstances.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
She's on the.
Speaker 4 (26:14):
Money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be
relied upon to make an investment or financial decision.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
If you do choose to buy a financial product.
Speaker 6 (26:23):
Read the PDS, TMD and obtain appropriate financial advice.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Tailored towards your needs.
Speaker 6 (26:28):
Victoria, Divine and She's on the Money are authorized representatives
of Money. Sheper Pty Ltd ABN three two one six
four nine two seven seven zero eight AFSL four five
one two eight nine
Hello, my name's Santasha Nabananga Bamblet. I'm a proud yr
the Order KERNI Whoaltbury and a waddery woman. And before
we get started on She's on the Money podcast, I
would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land
of which this podcast is recorded on a wondery country,
acknowledging the elders, the ancestors and the next generation coming
(00:22):
through as this podcast is about connecting, empowering, knowledge sharing
and the storytelling of you to make a difference for
today and lasting impact for tomorrow. Let's get into it.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
She's on the Money, She's on the Money.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Hello, and welcome to She's on the Money.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
The podcast that's all about empowering you to make informed
financial decisions, not emotional ones, and definitely not decisions based
on hehan messages in your DMS. I'm Victoria Devine, finance expert,
MLM exposer and the person who's here to help you
navigate all the sneaky traps designed to separate you from
your hard earned cash. Today is part two of our
(01:22):
very special episode. We are chatting to Emily Lynn Paulson,
an actual unicorn million dollar earner in an MLM, if
you haven't listened to part one yet, where she gave
us a very cheeky behind the scenes look at the
business side of MLM's hit pause my friend, right now,
head back and give it a listen. Trust me, you're
going to want the full story. But if you've already listened,
(01:45):
stick around today we are going deeper. We're diving into
the psychological tactics MLMs used to hook you, keep you,
and then convince you that it's all your fault when
things go sideways. It's time to pull back the curtains
and get into the why behind the decisions people make
when it comes to these schemes.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
So let's go. Let's flip on over.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
To the psychology side of things, because I feel like
we're starting to delve into that, he said, She said
emlms are designed to, I guess, make hitting that first
rank basically effortless, like and then they jump up and
down and go, oh my god, you made it, like
look how easy it is.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
This is so.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
Good, And you get that instant dopamine hit and it
kind of keeps you hooked. Can you remember what it
felt like when you hit your first milestone? So you
decided to sign up, and you were like, all right.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
I could do this. How did you feel? You know,
it was kind.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
Of double edged because I signed up, and then as
soon as I signed up again, I was totally ignorant,
didn't know what I was doing. I kind of ran
with it. I met with a friend that night after
I signed up, and I was like, hey, I bought
this skincare stuff, like I don't know what I'm doing,
and she's like, oh, I'll do it with you. So
like she literally seemed up that first day, right, And
(02:58):
so the next there was a post on Facebook like
outing me from my upline. You know, Emily signed up,
she started her business, and she's already hit her first promotion,
and so here I am like, like I felt a
little cringe that she put that out there without my permission.
And then I had all of these people, all reps
(03:21):
for the company, posting underneath like congratulations, congratulations, congratulations. All
these new friends, all these new followers. It's very intoxicating, right,
It's like you said, it's that dopamine hit. And so
it was like, oh, that was easy. I could do
that again, Like I could do more of that. And
then you start getting yifs. It's the love bombing just
off the bat.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
It's actually insane because I don't think it's a sacred
If you follow me on my personal Instagram, you know
I've signed up to an MLM under a fake name,
and I have been.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Doing that, and that happened to me.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
I hit my first one and I was mortified that
they're tagging me in the same One day, I'll share
who I was and what I joined under. But they
fully love bomb you. And you mentioned a lot in
the book the intense love bombing that happens when someone
joins an MLM, and like, I guess that's a good
example of it. You get constant praise and attention and
(04:12):
some validation, and that's really sexy and we want more
of that. How did that level of affection impact you
early on? And I guess when did it start to
feel a little bit less genuine?
Speaker 5 (04:23):
When at first it feels genuine because you know, the
person I joined with someone from high school. I wasn't
friends with her, we didn't know each other well. But
then it was like, Okay, she's someone I know, she
is someone from my hometown. Like I kind of felt
that instant kinship. And then by proximity, you're spending a
lot of time, whether it's across the zoom screen or
(04:45):
in a Facebook group, you're spending a lot of time
in proximity with these people, more than you're probably spending
with people in your real life, you know. And you're
really taught to share personal things and connect over personal
things and how hard life is as mom and you know,
blah blah blah. It's so it's kind of like trauma bonding.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
Early, which is terrifying, and it's a genuine tactic that
they are using as trauma bonding.
Speaker 5 (05:10):
Yeah, yeah, And I think it also is by nature.
MLMs are mostly women, as like eighty five to ninety
percent women, and so women are more connected on an
emotional level. And so when you already have that baked
in to a financial transaction where people are making money
off of you and you're making money off of people,
(05:30):
it's just it's going to be exploited. And so when
you're used to getting all these this attention and you're
on these top ten lists and you're being asked to
speak and then maybe a new shiny penny rolls around.
Someone else comes in quick and makes their first promotion
and gets a lot of attention, like the spotlight gets
taken off of you, and and so there's just automatic
(05:53):
like clause coming out, there's automatic jealousy. You're being ranked
publicly among other people all of the time, You're being
put on top ten lists by the company by different
team leaders all of the time. So it's just kind
of a breeding ground for hostility.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
Really yeah, yah yak yak, And I guess this love
bombing and we just touched on trauma bonding. Those are
actually two tactics that are used by cults to keep
people engaged and involved and consistently feeling like their cult
is their home. And you have said before that an
(06:32):
MLM is like a cult, Like I guess a lot
of people say that. I say that lots of people do.
I want to know what is the most jaw dropping
I guess culty behavior that you saw and how it
kind of messed with people's lives.
Speaker 5 (06:45):
I mean, I think the financial exploitation we've talked about.
There's a lot of financial exploitation, but you know, and
like the emotional exploitation with friendship love bombing, I think
the worst, in my opinion is the like you touched
on a little bit the spiritual manipulation religious manipulation, and I,
thankfully I wasn't in a lot of that. Thankfully my upline.
(07:08):
You know, nobody was super religious in my team, but
I knew people, you know, crossline or whatever, who I
did you know, events with, who were very manipulated, who
were like forced to go to a different church, they
had to pray before events. And so it throws in
this extra layer of not only are you not succeeding
(07:30):
because you're not working hard enough, but you're also not
devoted enough to Jesus or you know, you're not thankful enough,
you're grateful enough to God. And that's I think really
best up in a lot of ways.
Speaker 4 (07:42):
Yeah, and that's what kind of scares me as well,
because you are blurring the lines between your spiritual life,
your home life, your work life. That then when you
decide to leave, you're left absolutely high and dry. Immediately
you've gone from what I would say, you know, regardless
of the fact that a lot of it was not genuine,
(08:05):
you go from feeling very supported to being completely isolated
and on your own. So a lot of people they
know they want to leave, but they don't want to
leave because they don't want to lose that connection. They
don't want to lose their friends or their so called friends.
And then to add religion to that, like, what are
you going to do? Leave your religion like that to
me is absolutely insane. How do multi level marketing businesses?
(08:30):
I guess use dopamine hits because obviously there's lots of
them built in. Like the people that run multi level
marketing businesses. Through all of my research, I've realized they're
not skincare experts like Mona right, good example, they do
hair care and they do skincare. The founders of Money
are not hair care or skincare people at all. In fact,
(08:51):
they have a very rich history in network marketing and
multi level marketing business building, and they have just seen
that hair care skincare is incredibly popular with the women
that are the best victims, And so I think we
might go down that route. Let's create a haircare skin
care line with all of these wild you know, things
that we can say about them that no one can
(09:12):
really validate, and then we are going to recruit all
of these women underneath. But to keep them involved, we
actually need to give them consistent gratification and consistent dopamine hits.
And I feel like it's quite clear that through their
model they use it to hook you like an addiction.
And you've spoken about this in your book. How does
their structure keep you chasing that next high?
Speaker 5 (09:35):
Yeah, because they have hierarchy built in everywhere. You know,
not only you join an upline, who then is like
your master, who you have to take information from and
distill it down and then recruit other people and tell them,
you know, like a baby bird. You've got to feed
them the information. So you've got this hierarchy. But then
there's different levels, and you know, you promote to meet
(09:57):
these levels, and every time you get there, there's some
sort of it's like a constant game of like candy
crush or something, and.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
I love candy Crush. I would have been the worst.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
I'm so glad, honestly, Emily, I see so much of
me and you like, I just go. You know what,
if someone had given me that opportunity and I didn't
know any better, I would have loved it. It's like gammification.
I would have been all over it.
Speaker 5 (10:19):
It is. It's like analogue damification. That's exactly what it
is where they send you little gifts and just when
you start to feel a little bit like, oh, my
sales aren't good, they're like, we're going to have a
sale this month, and you know, you get a free
whatever for every one of these that you sell. And
it's just constantly built in so you have something to
look forward to. And they plan the convention. It's six
(10:42):
months in advance and you have to start like making
your way to advancing to earn certain gifts at convention.
They just make it a year long thing and then
during the month there's different goals. You know, every month
you have to read up to the same title. Like
it starts over every month. It's not like you get
to a rank and then you're there. You have to
(11:02):
do it every month. It's just a constant hamster wheel.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
And the higher you climb, from what I can say,
the more pressure you have on you to spend like
first class lights assistance. This idea of retiring your husband
that everyone wants to talk about, how did projecting that
lifestyle keep you stock even when I guess it wasn't
financially sustainable?
Speaker 5 (11:25):
Yeah, I mean, you know that's one thing when people ask,
like about the car and how the car is not
really free. You actually have to buy the car, right,
the free car.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
Yeah, and it has to be white. It has to
be a white range Drover, absolutely, And people have asked me.
Speaker 5 (11:38):
Like, well, why get it then, if it's such a
financial drain, why get it? Well? Can you imagine? You know,
you see all over social media like so and so
earned her Lexus and then you're not driving the car.
So it's almost like you're forced, your shamed into spending
and you don't want your downline thinking like well, where
are you flying in coach when so and so is
flying in first class? Or why are you doing this
(12:00):
when she's doing this. It's the comparison where you have
to look like this is aspirational and if you don't
earn the trip and you're not there, well, your team's
not going to feel motivated to want to try and
earn it. And so you do feel pressure to buy
stuff and to fit in and have the shoes that
kind of match everybody else. And that's why when people
(12:22):
say like, oh, well, you know, what what did you
do with all the money, It's like it was constantly
going back in. The more you made, the more you
were expected to spend all of the time, and even
if it wasn't over, it was between the lines. You know,
what gifts are you going to give your people who
promote to level five? What retreat are you going to
take your team on? And if you're not doing it well,
(12:44):
why is someone going to want to be on your team.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
It's a lot of pressure.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
It sounds like we're going to take a really quick break,
but don't go anywhere, because I've got so many more
juicy questions.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
All right way up back.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
And I feel like you were thankfully also not thankfully,
like I'm glad that you made it to the top,
so that we got you fighting the good fight against
multi level marketing businesses now. But you've said that a
lot of consultants are often presenting a life of success
that's a little bit more like illusion rather than reality.
I want to know, what's the wildest thing you've seen
(13:21):
someone do. I feel like you were in a lucky
position where you had the income coming in, so like
if you were spending it, okay, but like, what did
you see someone do to kind of like fake the
dream to keep it alive?
Speaker 5 (13:34):
Yeah, I mean I think one of the cringiest things
was something that a lot of people and everyone did.
This is like you pose next to your uplines lexus, right,
So I was like, this is what my upline earnests,
Like what do you haven't earned it? Like what are
you talking about? You know, it was this aspirational thing.
And then also the posting of paychecks. Sure you've seen
(13:54):
tons of that where they're like, oh, I got my
monthly check or whatever, and then it's xed out.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Yeah, I saw one the other day.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
It actually I forgot to screenshot it, and then when
I went back, they'd removed it. Because like, I have
an account where I follow all the MLM girlies just
to keep up with the goss, and one girl had
done it, but she clearly moved her photo so the
exes were not in the right spot and she's like
the caption was, oh my god, I got my monthly paycheck.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
I'm so grateful for whatever. I don't even care. But
it was.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Twenty three dollars and like forty cents, and I was.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
Like, oh, that's embarrassing.
Speaker 5 (14:27):
Yeah. Yeah, it'll be like the right number of numbers,
but they'll cover up where the decimal point is or whatever,
so it looks like way more one hundred percent, and
even if it was like even if it was one
thousand dollars, like again, subtract everything they're spending, which is
probably close to one thousand dollars. Tax is, like how
much should they spend to go on that trip? It
never accounts for that, But.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
The trip was free Emily, they earned that trip.
Speaker 5 (14:53):
Which and then they get to pay for it at
the end of the year. Right, it's added as income.
That's the other thing that of course I didn't know
why would I, But when you get to the end
of the year and you get your ten ninety nine
statement and it's like, you know, you have your money
that you actually are into dollars and then at the
end it's like, you know, whatever for leave it on
bag and that's added as income.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
And that happens in Australia too when we get our
tax statements, because they do give you a tax statement
because surprise, surprise, it's actually not your own business, because
they have to issue you with your own tax statement
because they've done all of their maths in the background,
and you have like your non monetary income that needs
to be disclosed and if you've been gifted anything.
Speaker 5 (15:36):
And you don't get to write it off exactly, they
already wrote it off. You don't get to write it off.
Speaker 4 (15:42):
You just have to pay tax on that quote income
that you achieved and it's not actually income, So you're
paying for something that you thought was free.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
Yeah, is it great to get a purse? Sure? Can
you pay your rent with that? No? So there's a
lot of people who they end up getting pushed over
the threshole of having to file quarterly taxes in the US.
You know, it's over a certain amount yet to fail quarterly,
and they didn't know that because they were like making
a couple hundred bucks a month, but because they went
(16:12):
on this trip that was added as income. Then they
get this ten thousand dollars fine from the IRS because
they didn't file quarterly taxes. And I heard this story
over and over and over because how would you know?
Speaker 4 (16:23):
But the MLM is not going to tell you that
because that's not sexy, and that's your problem. Remember, it's
your business. You need to work out your own taxes.
That's not their responsibility. That is all honestly outrageous, but
one of the most outrageous things that I read in
your book.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
I nearly threw it across the room.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Emily, Oh my lord, I like put it down in
bed and I looked at my husband and I was like,
you're not going to believe this, and he was.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
Like, all right, laid on me.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
What is it in your book? You talk about your
cancer diagnosis and then how the multi level marketing business
encouraged you to use that as a selling point. That
is a deeply personal and very vulnerable time to be
going through for them to be like great sales, like
(17:13):
fantastic selling point. Can you walk us through what happened
and how that made you feel?
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Because that was a lot Yeah.
Speaker 5 (17:22):
I think again, this is something that's preemptively trained into you,
like a lot of things, just like how they'll say, oh,
you'll have a lot of haters and you'll get a
lot of people saying no to you. And here's all
the talking points like preemptive right, you are from the
beginning again, you're doing all that love bombing. You're telling
you like deeply personal stories. You're talking about your trials
(17:42):
and tribulations. And when you go to events you hear
people's sob stories. It's the rags to riches it's the
pain to profit, right. Those are the stories you always hear,
and so this is just cooked into your brain. And
so when something troubling comes up, like when some one
you know, their husband who's a firefighter die is in
(18:03):
a fire, well, the company is right on that to
be like, oh gosh, you know you really need the
money right now. You know you could use this as
a way to earn money. Ew no, but it sounds like, oh, yeah,
you're right, I have my own business. This would be
a good way to help. It's really hard to explain
when you're out of it because that's one of those
things people are like, well, that's really gross. So I'm like, yeah,
(18:26):
it is, and it seems like the most natural thing
to do when that is the sea you're swimming in,
when you are around all of this quote unquote charity
again the air quotes. That's not charitable. It feels like
you're doing a very good thing.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
It's actually insane to me that they literally take advantage
of every situation, like you're right, maybe you did need
some money during that period of time. But the way
that they manipulate that. I have a scene it time
and time again here in Australia, like, oh it actually, yeah,
I did want to throw your book. I'm so sorry,
(19:03):
Like I wouldn't have heard it, but like I wanted
to throw it across the room and be like this
is ridiculous, like the fact that this was normal and
that you've exposed it, right, that's so fantastic. But it's
still going on, and they're like, I'm sure you've been
absolutely outcast. You've been like you've been kicked out of
the Church of MLMs, right, oh yeah, oh yeah, So
(19:25):
talk to me about that process, because I feel like
the second you start being one of the quote haters,
you like, went from being their queen to i would say,
being exiled and they wanted to put you on an
island in the middle of the Pacific and never hear
from you again.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
What was that like?
Speaker 5 (19:41):
So my process was kind of interesting because it was
twenty nineteen where I was like, ooh, where I really
you know again, I'd had my team do like profit
loss statements, and where I got to the point where
I'm like, no, all of these people are doing the
work and they are not having the success that I
had had, and I knew it was a system. So
I was like I'm turning everything off. I'm not selling anymore.
(20:04):
I'm just going to slowly back away. So I was
very transparent with my upline who brought me in, like,
you know what, I love you, thank you for this opportunity.
I'm just I'm not going to do this anymore. And
I kind of thought I would like silently collect a
check until it dissolved and went away. And then COVID happened,
and I mean the off the wall like the predatory
(20:28):
posts and comments and trying to use the pandemic to
recruit people was so gross to me. Again, I sold nothing,
did nothing, and yet I still hit the top rank
of the company that year. And that's when I was like,
this system is so rigged, this is so messed up.
And I quit. So by that time I had been
so off the radar for so long. It really wasn't
(20:50):
a huge surprise to anyone, but I fully terminated. But
when my book announcement came out.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Oh they would have rioted, it was.
Speaker 5 (21:00):
Oh they I had messages and calls like I can't
believe you're going to talk about this? Are you going
to talk about me? You know, there were a lot
of people going on the offense, like you're not going
to tell about this and about this, about this, and no,
I am very afraid of like what I was going
to say. So that's really when the clause came out,
where it was like, you know, you did all of
this stuff and now you're going to profit off it
(21:21):
with a book or whatever. You know, It's like yeah,
I am yeah. So anyway, that's really when the clause
came out. So I think by the time I was
like brave enough to talk about it, I had been
out much longer than I was out, if that makes sense,
Like I had backed away for so long, and I
think that was an advantage to me, and I that's
(21:43):
the number one thing I do tell other people. It's like, Okay,
you made the realization. Obviously not everyone can just immediately quit,
you know, if they're making money, you know, figure out
an exit strategy and slowly back away. You know, have
a conversation with the people on your team. Stop posting,
stop promoting, and you know you can kind of get
(22:04):
out that way. And the more you back away. And
I think COVID helps in this situation too. That I
couldn't go to conventions, I couldn't be around people I
couldn't be indoctrinated.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Yeah, that's pretty lucky.
Speaker 5 (22:13):
Yeah, when you take yourself out of that bubble, you
really can start to see a lot of realizations come
to the service. When that happens, too.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
It's absolutely insane to me, Like it drives me nuts
because I think the position that I'm sitting in, I
just want the best for women, and I think we
also want the best for ourselves, and that's why we
get involved in these things because it sounded like a
great opportunity at the time, and realizing that it's not
the opportunity you thought it was can be incredibly confronting.
(22:42):
And I'm sure it was. But what's something that you
would tell someone who's still involved in an MLM, because
I know they're going to listen, like I can't wait,
Like hi, babies, Like I know you're all watching on
you know. I have had a plethora of them send
me messages being like you're going to hear from head,
you're going to get a safe and desist, you're going
(23:02):
to get sued, And I'm like, okay, let's.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Go for what for what?
Speaker 5 (23:08):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (23:09):
What would you say?
Speaker 6 (23:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (23:11):
What I usually tell people is I say you know, slowly,
you know, do a profit loss statement. It's the first
thing to tell people to do, and all of your expenses.
Really write down all of the time that you're working
and do some math, do a little bit of math,
figure out what you're making per hour, and that for
a lot of people that is enough. They're like, oh
my god, this is not worth my time? What am
I doing? And then it's usually like, how do I
(23:33):
tell my upline? You know, and again like, just be honest,
I'm not making any money. I don't care if it's
my fault. I don't care if you tell me it's
my fault. A lot of it's just unlearning the things
you've been told and asking yourself like why do I
believe this? Who told me this? And who is benefiting
from this? Right? Because if your upline wants you to
(23:54):
stay in and they're encouraging you to stay in, what's
the reason. Do they really believe in you, do they
really want the best for you? Or they're making money
off of you. They're making money off of you, So
go to outside sources. Really do the math, like get
actual critical thinking skills and think about what you're doing.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
It drives me insane.
Speaker 5 (24:13):
Yeah, And I think the sunk cost fallacy is one
thing people are whether it's friends, time or money. I
put so much into this, how can they leave now?
And you just do like you just.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
Do well you do.
Speaker 4 (24:28):
And I get that because you don't want to just go, oh, well,
that was all a waste, like you want to make
the most of it. But you're throwing good money after
bad And something that my dad told me once, he said,
the sooner you get off the train, the cheaper the
return ride home. And I think that that is a
really good analogy to go, all right, well, the longer
you stay on the train, the more it's going to
(24:49):
cost you to come back home. And I think that
that's a really important thing to remember. I have taken
up a lot of your time.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
Emily.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
Thank you so much for chatting with us today sharing
your story. It's been really fun, really pervy, but also
kind of really concerning your honesty and insight honestly eye opening,
and not to mention it is so important for anyone
who's ever been I guess drawn into the MLM world
or you know someone that has. I feel like we
all know someone who's doing MLM. I get so many messages,
(25:18):
and I'm sure you do of like, oh my god, Victoria,
you're never going to believe this.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
My cousin signed up and I just.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
Know Christmas is going to be so awkward now, and
you're just like, oh, I.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Feel for you. But it's been a pleasure. Thank you
so much for joining us.
Speaker 5 (25:31):
Thanks Victoria, of course.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
For anyone listening, Emily's book Hayhun Sales, Sisterhood and Supremacy
and the Other Lies behind Multi Level Marketing is a
must read. Just don't throw it at your husband. It
dives even deeper into her experiences and breaks down the
truth behind these business models. I'm going to put a
link in our show notes so that you can check
it out. And if you know someone who needs to
(25:53):
hear this, I would love it if you shared it
with them. Let's keep saving women from these dodgy schemes
and empower wowing them with the truth. The advice shared
on She's on the Money is general in nature and
does not consider your individual circumstances.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
She's on the.
Speaker 4 (26:14):
Money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be
relied upon to make an investment or financial decision.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
If you do choose to buy a financial product.
Speaker 6 (26:23):
Read the PDS, TMD and obtain appropriate financial advice.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Tailored towards your needs.
Speaker 6 (26:28):
Victoria, Divine and She's on the Money are authorized representatives
of Money. Sheper Pty Ltd ABN three two one six
four nine two seven seven zero eight AFSL four five
one two eight nine
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