August 26, 2025 • 48 mins
Ever wondered how people actually know when it’s time to quit, pivot, or back themselves in a huge career move? Well Michelle Battersby's career was made on those moves. She ditched her safe banking job to launch unkown dating app Bumble in Australia, co-founded her own tech company Sunroom (and sold it while pregnant), and even walked away from an “end-of-career” salary because her gut told her no. This episode is her playbook on doing the scary thing and landing on your feet... plus the inside scoop on Fanfix snapping up Sunroom and what she’s plotting next.
Michelle shares:
💻 The very first sign it might be time to make a career move
💻 Her go-to frameworks that turn “scary leaps” into strategic ones
💻 The career reframe that makes failure impossible
💻 The tiny work habits that make you look like an all-star employee
💻 How women can make serious money in tech without being a “tech bro”
Michelle's Links:
Follow Michelle on Instagram here and TikTok here.
Find out more about the ultimate motherhood app, Peanut, here.
Join our Facebook Group AKA the ultimate support network for money advice and inspiration. Ask questions, share tips, and celebrate your wins with a like-minded crew of 300,000+.
And follow us on Instagram for Q&As, bite-sized tips, daily money inspo... and relatable money memes that just get you.
Acknowledgement of Country By Nartarsha Bamblett aka Queen Acknowledgements.
The advice shared on She's On The Money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She's On The Money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision. If you do choose to buy a financial product, read the PDS, TMD and obtain appropriate financial advice tailored towards your needs. Victoria Devine and She's On The Money are authorised representatives of Money Sherpa PTY LTD ABN - 321649 27708, AFSL - 451289.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
My name is Tatasha Bamblet. I'm a proud First Nations
woman and I'm here to acknowledge country t Glenn Young
Ganya Niana, Kaka yah Ya, bin Ahaka Nian our gay
In Nimbina, yakarum Jar, Dominyamka, Domaga, Ithawakawaman, damon Imlan Bimba
bang Gadabomba in and now in wakah Ghana on yak
rum Jar water Nadaa. Hello, beautiful friends, we gather on
(00:24):
the lands of the Aboriginal people. We thank, acknowledge and
respect the Abiginal people's land that we're gathering on today.
Take pleasure in all the land and respect all that
you see. She's on the Money podcast acknowledges culture, country,
community and connections, bringing you the tools, knowledge and resources
for you to thrive.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
She's on the Money. She's on the Money.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Hello and welcome to She's on the Money, the podcast
that helps you build your career, grow your income, and
actually get excited for Monday mornings. Our guest today has
a serious talent for spotting opportunities most people would probably
be too scared to chase, and then actually making them happen.
She's gone from a very safe corporate job to launching
(01:28):
the dating app Bumble here in Australia to co founding Sunroom,
a platform changing the way women and non binary creators
make money. Along the way, she's raised millions, built brands
that explode in the press, and crafted a career on
her own terms. I'm your host, Victoria Devine, and here's
why I'm so excited about this chat. Michelle Battersby is
(01:50):
the kind of person who shows you how to take
bold moves and turn them into a career that just
keeps getting better.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Welcome to the show, Michelle, or should I.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Say welcome to the show because you kind of did
a cameo while I was on Matt Leaf.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, I was thinking I have done this, but I've
never done.
Speaker 5 (02:05):
This with you.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
No, no, you got to take the wheel, and now
I've got the wheel back and now I get to
interview you, which is.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Very, very fun. I'm genuinely so excited about this. You
live in La so this I feel like has been
a long time coming, and a lot of like, what's
your calendar look like?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
What's my calendar look like? Oh?
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Maybe not this trip, maybe next trip? Okay, what about
next trip? Like, yeah, we finally face to face.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
I know, feel surreal.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
I'm so excited, like and I just know that my
community is going to be like, this episode's going to
be lit. So Michelle, when we have a little bit
of a look at your CV, I would say it
is nothing short of inspiring, which is exactly why in
the show I'm going to be taking the opportunity to
kind of put you in the hot seat and answer
the career questions that our community is sending us consistently,
(02:51):
things like how do you know when it's time to
change careers? And how do you actually be successful in
the tech space as women? What does this look like?
But first you've been working on I would say something
massive behind the scenes, and it's taken like now more
than a year, tell me about it.
Speaker 5 (03:07):
Yeah, it has taken a very long time. So we
got some room acquired, so it's been.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Sold as wheeling and dealing.
Speaker 5 (03:17):
Yeah, as we record this, it's actually being announced tonight.
So it's being announced tomorrow morning in the US. The
company that we sold to is a company called fan Fix,
And it was such a journey to get here, Like
an acquisition process is just wild, very different to a
(03:37):
fundraising process I've found, and it had so many ups
and downs. So like, we actually first spoke to this
company about a year ago, but we started moving through
the process with another competitor in our space, and it
was basically, do you know what.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
You need is to to play them off against each other.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (03:56):
Well, it ended up basically being close to a done
deal back in February. And then as like, I think
anyone who sold a company will probably have a similar
experience where you can get really close maybe one two,
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
However many times people.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Needs a signature and then for some reason that part
doesn't go ahead.
Speaker 5 (04:15):
Well, what happened was this company actually ran into some
very public legal struggles that just made them it would
have been an unethical choice. So we had to completely
pull back and go back to the drawing board. And
it felt like such a whiplash and such as lap
in the face at the time, but it actually ended
up being the biggest blessing because we had gone through
(04:37):
the process enough to see how you would structure the
deal and how you would de risk it, and so
we could kind of take a second swing with all
these other people and you're.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Like, this is now not my first rodeo, and I
know what to ask and what to say and how
to structure it and get our way.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Like yeah, how exciting.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Let's backtrack a little bit because for those of you
who have haven't heard of Sunroom, it is a brand
and a platform that lives and breathes its values. As
you can hear, you literally pulled a deal because you're like, dah,
that's unethical. And I feel like a lot of people
when they're at the point of sale, they're like, oh,
that doesn't matter so much, like let's just get it done.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
With, Like I've overlooked it.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
There's money on a stable exactly and Sunroom and you
have obviously this mission and you're really passionate about I
guess sharing real creators and paying them properly and sharing
creator wins. So I guess you were achieving what you
set out to do. You've like done what people probably
(05:35):
thought is not possible at this point. Why did you
feel like right now you were like, Okay, well, obviously
you've been talking about this for twelve months. I think
if someone approached me and said, do you want to
sell your company, I'll be like no, I love my company,
like that's not on the cards, Like why did you
feel like now was a good time to sell?
Speaker 5 (05:53):
Yeah, So, my co founder Lucy and I started Sunroom
with the intent to make women non binary creators as
much money as possible on the Internet.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
And about a.
Speaker 5 (06:03):
Year ago we were approached by someone in our space
to merge. And so it's not like we've been sitting
down talking about M and A and talking about selling
our company. It was I guess, you know the example
that you gave, like someone came to us, but it
did get us thinking, okay, interesting, you know, don't know
if we necessarily want to merge with this company, but
(06:24):
maybe we could sell our company and could we actually
help all the women A non binary creators we've attracted
make more money somewhere else. And so we started looking
at our competitors, but we also started looking at social networks,
talent agencies, even porn companies, like different ways our product
might be appealing to bigger players.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
And we asked ourselves.
Speaker 5 (06:49):
Questions, you know, like do they have a more extensive
feature set than us, do they have more resources, do
they have a bigger team, do they have better brand
awareness and fan fix? The company that we've ended up
selling to They ticked every one of those boxes. They
had a similar ethos to us in terms of how
they thought about creators and supporting creators.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
They built out a product they just would always beat us.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
It was like, you know, that's what you want, Like
in this particular situation.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
It's kind of like that, if you can't beat them,
join them, and we just sell to them. Exactly.
Speaker 5 (07:22):
It just felt like, oh, if we could land with them,
this truly would be an amazing outcome for our creators.
And as we worked through the process, there were many
moving parts and many things to think about. Like you've
got your investors and you're trying to think about what
you know you can return to them. You are kind
of thinking about yourself, like I've made financial sacrifices to
(07:45):
start a business.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
One hundred percent, and you've spoken very openly about, you know,
not earning much and taking massive pay cuts to like
invest literally everything financially and otherwise into Sunroom.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
So like these are big decisions.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
They're not like, oh should we sell, Oh yeah, it's monday.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Let's go. Yeah, and also your staff.
Speaker 5 (08:02):
But then I think where we were in this unique
position because we've got a consumer product and our consumer.
Our product is literally helping women make money, and so
a lot of our users they're paying their rent through
their sunroom earnings, they're paying their car insurance, maybe they're
buying homes, maybe they're.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Paying for their college tuition.
Speaker 5 (08:21):
So the decision of who to sell to, like it
was mostly weighing on what would be the best outcome
for our creators. And it feels so good to be
at this point now and to have actually officially like
done this deal and to have got them an outcome
that actually has the potential to make them way more money.
(08:41):
Like once this finally goes everything is kind of transitioned
over officially tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
I'm so curious to see the data and to see our.
Speaker 5 (08:50):
Creators numbers doubled on this platform because they have that
much more traffic than us, that much more brand orness.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah, so it's like I truly hand on heart.
Speaker 5 (09:00):
I would have found it very hard to I've been
doing calls with our creators for the past week, like
running a very sensitive comms process to bring them in
on this before, so it's not a surprise, and I
would have found those calls very difficult to have if
I couldn't truly basically, yeah, if I couldn't truly say
here's all the ways, like this product can actually help
(09:20):
you in ways that we couldn't.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Yeah, like you've gone from being small to a medium
and now like they actually have the platform of a
large business, but the care and respect and the morals
of a small business still, Like that's a deal exactly.
Speaker 5 (09:34):
And like Lucy and I are advising for them for
the next year, so we're still there to care for
our creators, can be in touch with them, We'll still
be behind the scenes, and it's just it's weird.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
It's a very surreal feeling. But yeah, I feel very
happy about it.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
And I feel like those were probably your biggest priorities
when talking about this sale. Were there any other priorities
that might come as a surprise that you were like,
hold on, I didn't realize I cared so much about this.
This now has to be part of the deal.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
That's a really good question.
Speaker 5 (10:07):
I think as we went through the process, because we
had options, like we had different competitors in our space
that were interested in acquiring us. We also went through
the process for quite an extensive period with a really
big social network and we also were talking to quite
a big porn site as well for months, and I think, what.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Sort of maje your emails look really good?
Speaker 5 (10:32):
I think what was a really interesting learning in that
is that there are so many different ways you can
package your business up and tell the story to appeal
to different people, and just a social network we were
speaking to were really interested in our technology, in our
anti screenshot tech and our team, So the pathway we
(10:52):
were going down with them was an aquahier which wouldn't
have been as good for our creators at the end
of the day, because they were more interested in our
team and tech and how we could maybe be a
project team within their business and work on monetization for them.
And then you've got the porn side of things, which
maybe would have appealed to a percentage of our creator.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
It is not what your creators do as a whole.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
And I think that that's you know, as someone who's
watched Sunroom grow and like followed it like a cult member,
I know that, yes, there are people who create that
content on your platform, and you champion them as much
as everybody else. But there's also just so many women
just creating content for women that you're like, hold on,
would that turn them off?
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Then? Exactly?
Speaker 3 (11:39):
So I feel like that makes sense to me. But
that's as somebody who's been following it going. I actually
really truly feel like I understand what types of creators
you have on this app. And it's not you know,
your OnlyFans content creator. You actually have just people creating good,
face to face content and making a killing at the
same time, and that's really cool.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (12:00):
So I guess it's like we learnt our creators really
were at the forefront of everything that we were doing,
and we made this decision for them. And I think
as I've taken all these calls over the past week
or so, it's been amazing to hear their reaction to
it and that they see the opportunity, that they're excited
about it, that they're proud of kind of where we're at,
and it feels like we made the right choice.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
And I feel like you've been so transparent about like
your career journey and what that's meant, and you are
such a career person, but then recently you became a mum,
so you have now a sixteen month old.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
A fifteen month fifteen as of recording. That's crazy.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
That is crazy, And I feel like we've gone through
this like motherhood journey together on the other side of
the world. Like I've been watching you and you've been
watching me, and we've been like, yep, same queen. We
both have these little buff head boys and it's like
the best thing ever. Yeah, but I feel like that
really changes the way you manage a business and it
changes your priorities. And before your month that's terrifying, Like
(13:00):
both you and I were like what have we done?
Like we wanted this, but also did we want this?
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Like is this?
Speaker 4 (13:06):
You know? Is this it?
Speaker 3 (13:07):
And I think both of us can agree it's the
best thing ever, Like this is the best part of
my entire life. But like, now you've sold your business,
what are you going to miss the most? Because I
feel like that is such a defight it for me,
I find being a business owner. Also I'm a mum,
but like primarily like on socials and the content I
(13:29):
create and I leave and I breathe business and we're
what are you going to miss the most?
Speaker 2 (13:34):
I think what else? I'm not going to miss it?
Initially because I'm doing this advising for a year.
Speaker 5 (13:39):
Yeah, So I will be in on the goss, but
I just loved watching a complete unknown person discover our
product and make bank Like that was just the most
rewarding feeling.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
So I think it's interesting because the little wins.
Speaker 5 (13:55):
I actually I actually ended up feeling a bit resentful
of my of my company in periods because I felt
like I was just surviving off little wins over and
over and over, and I was like, God, can I
just get a big win?
Speaker 2 (14:07):
I can't just live off crumbs.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
Yes, But now that I'm sitting here, I actually think
I will miss those small wins and just being surprised
by someone's potential on the platform. So I'll still get
to hear about that for a year, but then I
think I will miss it. But I yeah, it's interesting.
I don't feel this huge identity shift in this moment
(14:29):
because I've never I think my personal brand and career.
I've existed in big organizations and in my own organization,
so I kind of have like viewed myself as quite fluid.
So I don't I don't feel a great sense of
emotion over not being a founder anymore.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Like what I mean, You're still a founder. You're a
founder who's sold me. Yeah, is that like a step up.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Like a found No? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's boot.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
That's definitely going in the instagram byo. Talk to me
about this though, because I feel like when I learned
that you were selling sun Room.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
I'm like, oh my god, that's so sick. And then
I was like, what's she going to do?
Speaker 3 (15:14):
Like I feel like, oh God, motivationally, you and I
are on the same page, and like I just need
a lot to do, like and whatever I do, I
want to throw myself into and I go, I see
a lot of that in you.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Yeah, what does the next chapter look like? Where are
you going? What are you doing? Because I already know
that you're not going to go I've retired. I don't
do anything now. I'm just going to be a mom.
That's not you.
Speaker 5 (15:39):
That was the most painful part of how long this
process took for me. It was knowing this is going
to happen, but I can't wnk about it. I can't
publicly begin to explore other things. I need to sit
in complete silence and wait.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
That would kill me. Oh my god. I was born
to yap, so that just wouldn't work for me. And
I'm so impatient.
Speaker 5 (16:00):
This has been the hardest year for me mentally to
trust that it was going to come to this moment
and it was going to work out and in a
monkst selling my company. Like back in February when that
first deal fell through, that was the same month I
found out I was pregnant. Oh my god, So I've
got an eight month old, I'm pregnant and I'm selling
my company and now I'm not do you know what,
(16:23):
go hard or go home?
Speaker 2 (16:24):
And now I'm not selling my company, so like what
what do I do?
Speaker 5 (16:28):
You know?
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Like, it was really quite scary, Like I cried. I
would have cried a lot. I would have been under
the table rocking just a little bit. Yeah, I was
really scared. Also, I live in the US, so.
Speaker 5 (16:43):
To be a pregnant woman potentially trying to work out
if I'm going to re enter the workforce or what
I'm going to do. I just had a lot of
thoughts and what's happening with my health cover you know,
I'm pregnant.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Lots of things figure out, and so I really had to.
I did a lot of chat japt hard Pools through
that period. Yeah, good good.
Speaker 6 (17:03):
That shows you where my mind was at you know what,
We've all been there, Yeah, but I really just had
to trust that, you know, like the universe usually has
my back, and I would figure it out and we
like definitely got the train back on the tracks.
Speaker 5 (17:17):
And it was looking pretty positive like throughout this year
towards this acquisition, and I knew at the time I
would look back at this year and actually be really
grateful that I had the time to sit with my
thoughts and to reflect. And I thought about consulting, and
I thought about starting my own business, and then I realized,
(17:38):
I think I want to go and work for a
brand again. Like I when I think about my career,
I just feel so I have so many fond memories
of my Bumble time. I like to kind of take
something that I see the potential in and like try
to blow it up.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
And so I began to reach.
Speaker 5 (17:58):
Out to invest that we had at Sunroom that I trusted,
and one of our investors is this woman called Michelle
Kennedy and she was actually on the board at Bumble.
She came up with the name Bumble and she invested
in That's so cool, yeah, And she invested in Sunroom.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
So she's kind of like always like been there, just
out of the journey. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (18:18):
And she's the founder and CEO of Peanut, which is
a platform, a community platform for moms you can also track.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Very popular in the US, but it's taking I guess
Australia by storm, like I'm on Peanut, are you?
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (18:32):
I like send you screenshots to be like tracking a coincidence,
like look at my Peanut messages.
Speaker 5 (18:37):
Yes, it's an amazing platform. I actually downloaded it when
I was pregnant with Alfie because I.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Seem like when I was having Harvey, I was like,
I don't know what I'm doing.
Speaker 5 (18:45):
Yeah. Yeah, So there's forums, you can track your pregnancy,
you can connect with other women. And I didn't know
where that conversation was going to go. I was just
feeling a bit lost, and so I actually think I asked,
you know, can I consult or contract for you?
Speaker 2 (18:59):
As I'm kind of figuring out where my next move is.
Speaker 5 (19:01):
Yeah, And she ended up being in LA She's based
in the UK, and I went and met her at
a hotel and I think we want to talk for
thirty minutes and it ended up being two hours.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
When those happened, because you just feel like you have
like a deeper connection and then you're like, wow, this
is really cool.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (19:16):
And then at the end of that meeting, it kind
of went from potentially contracting to I actually think you
need to like come and like run this with me,
and yeah, I just got goose bumps, which is you.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
I just got signed bumps. Like literally, I'm like, ah, yes,
good world.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
I feel like sometimes we feel like the universe doesn't
have our back, and then it's like moments like these,
it's like it does.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
It does have your back. I just couldn't believe it.
Speaker 5 (19:42):
I got tears in my eyes, and I just respect
her so much, and I just thought the opportunity to
be able to work alongside her on a product I
care about this problem and it's something I think about
when I'm in the shower. It's how I show up
online naturally. Anyway, it just felt like this is a
perfect It felt too good to be true. When you
told me, I was like, yes, that is perfect. Yeah,
(20:05):
I'm still waiting for it to fall apart.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
To be honest, it's not going to It's not going
to fall apart. It's going to fall together.
Speaker 4 (20:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:12):
So I'm actually today is actually meant to be my
first official day as president of Peanut, and I'm going to.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
Go, you're president of Peanut, yes, And how many weeks
pregnant are you?
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Thirty?
Speaker 3 (20:24):
So you're thirty weeks pregnant and got a job in
the US as the president of a company.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Hmm, okay, pop off, you know what not, biggie.
Speaker 5 (20:32):
It is a crazy moment, and I was so scared,
like navigating that with my pregnancy as well.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
You know, I had so much angst because.
Speaker 5 (20:40):
I thought, oh, I really want to get in the door,
I want to get some runs on the board, and
that I do need to go and have my yeah,
second child. But yeah, it just feels like, honestly, such
a perfect ending and like start of this new chapter
for me, and I just honestly couldn't be more excited.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
In addition to all of that, like that's all so good,
but the ethos of Peanut, the user experience of Peanut,
the clients on Peanut, Sorry you're on the journey with them,
Like what a better person to know them and show
them than someone going through the journey and be like, no,
this is what I needed, And like I feel like
we need more of that.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Yeah, it's literally so perfect. I'm so excited for you.
Thank you. It's very cool.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
All right, let's take a really quick break because I
promised at the start of this episode that I would
ask you like career questions that my community had instead
talking about your journey.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
I'm like, well, what else, Michelle, what's talking about me?
So we will.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
I would love to keep talking about you, but our
community has questions that I think you are going to
answer incredibly well, So.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Don't go anywhere, guys.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
All right, we are back, and like I promised, it
is time to put Michelle in the hot seat, not
just the interview seat, to give us a little bit
of career advice. We have so many career questions that
come through literally every single week into our DMS, and
I would say that one of our biggest questions that
we get from our community is saying they just don't
know whether they should make the creer leap, Like that
(22:07):
is so scary, Like do I take a step back?
Do I apply for a job that I'm not qualified for?
Do I, you know, take a step forward and do
a little bit of training, Like what if I don't
even like it?
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Like what do I do?
Speaker 3 (22:17):
So Michelle, what other signs you think mean it's time
to change things up and.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Take that next step.
Speaker 5 (22:24):
I honestly think the number one sign is that you're
even thinking about it.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
I agree, no, that you're thinking it, do it? Yes,
it's it's definitely that. I think.
Speaker 5 (22:32):
If you've got those underlying feelings but they're just making
you feel uncomfortable so you're ignoring them, that's your trigger
to start really like digging into this. And I honestly
think a great first step is just talking to people
about it, admitting that that's the way you feel. I
think it then depends how like what your risk appetite
is like, so probably both of us we would just
(22:55):
dive head into something without really thinking.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Much, honestly, like as much as it's worked out for
both of us, Like I think we are both equally
chaotic and like people. And I'm going to ask you
this in a minute, but people always like, oh my god,
you're so like intentional, and I'm like.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Am I am?
Speaker 3 (23:12):
I just seemed like a good idea and I didn't
take any time to look at the risks.
Speaker 5 (23:16):
But yes, intention yeah, I think there's a couple of
ways you can play it. There's a couple of frameworks
that I love. I think if you're the sort of
person who needs a bit of structure. So one thing
that I actually did before I started sun Room, which
was almost out of character for me, is have you hurt?
Do you know what an ikey guy is?
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (23:34):
I have.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
This course calls your Best Year Yet that I launch
at the start of every year, and that is one
of my suggested readings, Go find your ikey guys.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 5 (23:43):
So it's basically a Japanese framework for finding your purpose
in life, but it's been transformed and you can apply
it to your career.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
So you really just ask yourself four questions. It's what
am I good? What do I love? What does the world? Sorry?
What am I good at? Yet? I put the ass
at the end of that, I knew what you meant
what everybody else knew to what am I good at?
What do I love? What does the world need? And
what can I be paid for? And I actually looked
back at my ikey guy that I did.
Speaker 5 (24:12):
In twenty twenty when I was founding sun Room, like
a year ago, as I was navigating my career as
a mum. I came back to it as like it
was almost my personal north star and realized I wasn't
actually doing any of the things I loved or was
good at in my day to day, like I had
been taken down this rabbit hole of just you know,
the daily grind. And so it's a really good exercise
(24:34):
to also come back to if you're feeling it's.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
A little bit confronting, not gonna lie. I went through
it a year ago when I was like, oh, this
best year yet. Course has been out for a while
and it's really popular. I'm just going to go back
through all of the readings and I really read the
book and I was like, cool, I need to just
get a little bit more on track with what I
said I was going to do. But it can be
really helpful, Like that's one of my favorite resources.
Speaker 5 (24:57):
Yeah, so I think that's a good one to start with.
Then Tim Ferriss actually has a line of questioning in
his book The Four Hour Work Week, So I think
this is a little bit more tactical. So the first
thing that you do is about defining your fears. So
you ask yourself a whole bunch of what if questions,
and it's like, what if you know the worst outcome,
(25:18):
what if my business fails and I run out of money.
What if my business fails and I lose my visa
and I have to leave the US And you just
get it all.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Down on paper.
Speaker 5 (25:26):
And then part two of that is preventative action, Like, Okay,
here's all the things I'm really scared of, But what
is actually the worst thing that's going to happen. Okay,
my business fails and I run out of money, maybe
I've saved three months salary and that's enough for me
to re enter the world.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
I can re enter the workforce. Ye I always have
that in the back of my head. I'm like, do
you know what I make a mean coffee? I'd be
a sick barista. I can go get a job in
a cafe any day, if the week, yep, I'll be fine.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Yeah. Can't be that deep.
Speaker 5 (25:55):
Exactly, And like, okay, I need to leave the country.
Maybe I have to go live with my parents. Are
a bit I think whenever you're taking some risk, there
is a little bit of an element of needing to
swallow your pride. And you might think everyone's watching you fail.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
They're not. Everyone's too absorbed with themselves, Like it isn't
that big a deal. Really.
Speaker 5 (26:15):
Even when I left banking and started working at Bumble,
I'd never heard of the company. It wasn't established in Australia.
I had no idea if they were even going to
pay me. I quit my job, worked in retail, got
my old job back at a surf store when I
was twenty five, and moved back in with my parents,
and there was just this period of Okay, I just
need to do this until I figure out if this
(26:35):
Bumble is even a legitimate company.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
That's what we need to talk about more as well,
because I think that they're the non shiny things that
you did where people are like, oh, and I feel
like sometimes and this is not I hope not disrespectful,
but sometimes we can put your career on a silver
platter and be like, oh my god, look at what
she did at Bumble and then she's gone on to
build her own business and that's insane. But like, also,
(26:58):
look at the sacrifice you made, Like you went boots
and all into this opportunity, not even knowing if they
would pay you, but you're like really excited about it,
And I'm going to swallow my pride and go get
my job back at my old retail surf store, but like,
no one's talking about that party. But that's the sacrifice
you make to kind of slingshot yourself forward. But then
when people start talking about it, they just they just
(27:20):
see the shiny name and they see obviously what you've done,
and that's incredible. But like it actually takes two parts,
Like you have to kind of like be willing to
spoiler your pride and be willing to take a step back,
because if you're not, the opportunities aren't just sitting there
on a silver platter. They don't look like they're on
a silver platter until you're looking at them retrospectively.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Yeah, one hundred percent.
Speaker 5 (27:40):
I so so believe that, Okay, And then the third
part of this is you ask yourself, what would part
what could partial success look like if I did this?
And I love that question because this kind of segus
nicely off your point. I think sometimes we're focused on
the huge end goal, like not knocking it out of
the park, making load of money, reaching X downloads, or
(28:02):
all these sorts of things.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
But to actually ask yourself what would partial success look like?
Speaker 5 (28:07):
I think it gets you into the right framework, in
the right head space of realizing that there is actually
no failure. If you take a swing and miss, you've
still learnt so much. You've still inflated your own value
as an individual. You can command more wherever you go next.
You can bring unique experiences you didn't have before. So
I really like the partial success question and then the
(28:29):
last one, and this is this is good. It is
what would your life look like if there was no
action taken three months, six months, twelve months from now,
And you break it down into emotional, physical, and financial,
So maybe it's like, Okay, in three months, I'm actually
in a toxic work environment. Emotionally, I'm going to be
(28:50):
way worse off than I'm even feeling now. Like physically,
maybe I'm so burnt out and like overrun and over
this that I'm going to be living in unhealthy lifestyle
because I have no time to get out of the
house or you know, I'm just uber eating every night,
which I got to do anyway, But I.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Want you feel attacked on my own podcast. But you know,
just getting into those sometimes we do what we've got
to do.
Speaker 5 (29:15):
Yeah, exactly, and seasons there are total seasons as well,
But just asking yourself those questions, I think if you're
the sort of person who really needs to see it
on a page and needs a bit more of a push.
Those are two things that I think you can do
to identify if you know you actually really need to
make a jump.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
Yeah, I wanted to ask you about I guess this
like career strategy that if we look at your career,
looks like you are so intentional. You're like, yep, and
I'm going to go to bumble and I'm going to
do this and I'm going to smash it out of
the park. And that's so cool and so inspiring. But
I feel like every single time you've pivoted, and every
(29:52):
single time you've moved to a different role or taken
on becoming a founder, you've obviously added massive skills to
your portfolio, which, as you said before, even if it
doesn't work out, you've got another feather in your hat
that you can command, more pay for, more respect, for
a better job. Like you can do so much with it.
But what advice would you give to someone who's like,
I want to be strategic too, because is there all
(30:15):
that strategy or is it following your passion and following
you know what you think is really exciting and what
lights you up because I feel like so many times,
especially if you are in a salary payg job and
you're like, Okay, cool, I've got this really consistent income coming,
it's a massive risk to leave. Especially honestly, as we
get to be older, our responsibilities are more. We might
(30:37):
have a partner, we might have rent on a more
expensive place, we might have a mortgage, we might have kids,
and that stuff is not twenty five year old decisions, right, Yeah.
Speaker 5 (30:47):
As you were speaking, I was thinking, yeah, I don't
have a strategy, but it actually is a strategy.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
That's the strategy.
Speaker 5 (30:54):
Yeah, I fully just I really trust my intuition, and
I know I questioned myself on why I'm making the
choice that I'm making. So for example, this decision to
go to Peanut, one of the companies that was going
to acquire us ended up offering Lucy and I these packages,
and it was I feel kind of uncomfortable talking about this,
(31:17):
but it's a Shoes on the Money podcast.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
I think we also don't have to because like at
the end of the day, and I said this before
you came on the podcast, like you don't have to
disclose anything. It's nobody's business, Like if you sold for
one hundred dollars or one hundred million dollars, it actually
doesn't matter because it doesn't impact people. What impacts people
is strategy and decision making. And wow, she had the
balls to do that, because do you know what if
you sold for one hundred dollars and you guys had
(31:40):
decided that that was the best thing for your community,
for your business, and for yourselves, that's a sleigh same
thing is true at one hundred million dollars.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
People are just pervy and want.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
To know how rich you got from it, you know, like,
and that's actually none of their business. And I feel
like I do backtracking. I do on Mondays every single
week of money diary, and a lot of people has
said to me, Vitraya, why don't you do a money diary?
And it's like, well, everyone on my show has been
gifted anonymity, Like they come on my show, they tell
me how much they earn, how much they spend, how
(32:10):
much they earn, how much they owe, and they don't
have a name to that, so there's no traceable. Yeah,
if I start coming out and disclosing my income, my salary,
what I pay myself, how I pay myself what my
business is valued at God, that's going to be front
page of the daily mail. And also the people who
care aren't the people who benefit from it. The people
(32:30):
who benefit from that conversation. They're not taking how much
I earned, they're taking, Oh, what strategy did you have?
How did you feel? Like, like Michelle, how do you
back yourself? So I don't want you to be uncomfortable
or answer anything that you're like, oh, I don't know,
because we can admit all of that stuff. But it's
more around like the strategy and the game and what
that looks like, because like, yeah, nobody's going to build
(32:53):
another sun room because it's already in existence, and if
they do, they're already three, probably ten steps behind.
Speaker 5 (32:59):
You know.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
No, I think this is good and like it does
kind of get to the strategy.
Speaker 5 (33:03):
So one of these offers was like an end of
your career type salary I thought I would get, Like
I just kind of.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Was like when I sink Dog. Yeah, I was like.
Speaker 5 (33:14):
Shit, And I went through the process because I also
had I was also really curious to see how am
I valued in a big place like this after I've
done all this. I'd always believed that it didn't really
matter what outcome I got with sun Room, because maybe
I could go to one of these big companies and
(33:34):
I could command a lot. So I was doing it
as a bit of a challenge to myself. I really
wanted to see how would I be leveled, what would
my package look like? And I wasn't really going through
the process with the intent to take the role. Yeah totally,
because I was already listening to my heart. Would you
go shopping? It's the window shopping.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (33:54):
But then when I got it, I was like, oh shit,
like this is very very hard, Like how do you
not take this? And I had to really spend some
time thinking about how it would feel to show up
in you know, I kind of had pe nut and
then I had this other offer, and I was trying
to put myself in the position of showing up at
(34:14):
these workplaces every day and working on the problem and
about where my life is at now. And I'm the
kind of person where if I can't identify with the
problem or the product, if I can identify with the
problem and the product, it just like all clicks and
it feels really easy, and it's like my flow state
and everything just comes and it feels amazing. And that's
(34:42):
kind of how I was feeling about the peanut thing.
But pe nut is like an amazing opportunity, but also
still startup vibes.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
And I've been working in startups for ten years now,
and I found some room very hard. It was very relentless.
Speaker 5 (35:00):
Was a grind the entire way through, And so there
was a part of me that's like, do I need
a break? I'm a Do I take the easier job
that's going to pay me so well?
Speaker 3 (35:10):
I could make bank, But maybe I wouldn't be that happy.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Yes, and I'd be a cog in the wheel.
Speaker 5 (35:17):
Respectfully, I would feel like I'm a cog in the wheel,
and maybe if I wanted to do something, I'd need
to ask two people's permission before I'm allowed to do it,
and maybe they're going to mandate that I.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
And don't get me wrong, like that's not a bad thing,
but I think also, once you've been a founder of
your own business, it is very hard, Yeah, to take
that step back where you aren't like, but I'm happy
to take accountability for this project, Like I don't need
other people sign off.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Yeah, that would be really challenging. For me as well.
Speaker 5 (35:46):
I kind of felt like if I was real, if
I was going to work in an in someone else's
organization again, this Peenut opportunity just felt.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Like bang of.
Speaker 4 (35:57):
Back.
Speaker 5 (35:58):
Yeah, I would still have that like owner mindset or
a bit of like it's not like I need to
be like in power or anything.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
I kind of articulate it.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
But a decision making process is being able.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
To have an idea and just start alementation. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (36:13):
Yeah, Like I don't want to I'm not doing a proposal.
I'm not going to ask three people's permission.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
I need to say, you can't sit on this for
three months and like get me three different quotes and
then we can maybe consider it, and then we don't
have capacity. Sorry, Michelle, Yes exactly. No, that's not how
my brain works.
Speaker 5 (36:28):
Like I just need to be able to shoot my
shot at this and like if it fails, I won't
do it again.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
No issues.
Speaker 5 (36:33):
Yeah, you know, Like I so I really went inward
and I really just trusted my gut and my instincts
and I just to be honest. Even when I saw
the huge offer, it was more like, well I already
knew I'm not going to take it. But I wish
I didn't know what it was that yeah, yeah, yeah,
like I already know I'm going to go with this
(36:54):
other one, but like now I'll.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Know forever that I know that power move. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (37:01):
But I also do think it was like I was
kind of only doing it to build confidence anyway. And
this is why taking I find taking risks easier is
because I just reinforced an assumption that I had, which
is like, I'll probably always be able to go and
get that. Yeah, So I want to follow my heart
and go where I see there's more long term potential
(37:23):
whilst I'm still.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
Really right because there are probably a lot of people
in my community that have these offers. And it's kind
of like also similar in a way to staying where
you're at. You're like, Okay, maybe you've reached that one
hundred thousand dollars salary, and you're like, but I also
know that next year that's going to be one hundred
and ten, and then you know a few years later,
I might be on one twenty and like that feels
(37:45):
really safe and that's like a very good amount of money.
Or do I pivot and go to a different industry
and I don't know what that's going to pay or
I don't know how sustainable that is, And you know
you haven't got enough experience to know what that career
trajectory looks like. You've played very heavily, I would say,
in the tech space over your career. And this is
(38:07):
an industry that we've been talking a lot about on
our podcast because women can make bank and I think
that so many women are scared of tech because they're like, oh,
I'm not really a techy person, like I don't get it.
But from an investment and then also a career angle,
we've talked about this idea of like high risk, high reward,
(38:27):
and lots of people that are listening to the show
we are high risk people because we want the reward.
Like you don't listen to a show like She's on
the Money because you don't want to change your life,
be better at money, be better at finance, have a
better career, have a better life. Like the community that
I have built, they listen to this content because they're
like I want to do better for myself, Like I
want to upgrade, like I want to put myself in
the driver's seat. What do you think are the key
(38:50):
things that made you so successful in tech, both as
an employee but then now as a startup founder.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
That has exited.
Speaker 5 (39:00):
Interesting question because it really was Bumble that was sort
of this break through moment in my career. And I
think what helped me get ahead at Bumble was I
really gave a shit. A lot of people don't care
about their jobs, and it's fine if it's fine if
you don't care about your job.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
There are also certain roles where you do just.
Speaker 5 (39:22):
Need someone to clock in at nine, clock out at five,
and maybe it doesn't need to be their passion.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
They've got other passions in life, you know, And there
are lots of jobs that serve that purpose.
Speaker 5 (39:34):
Yeah, But for me, that job at Bumble did become
my purpose, my life, my identity, and so I think
I stood out in that role within the company because
I really lived and breathed it and I went above
and beyond, and I do as I've now gone on.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
To employ people.
Speaker 5 (39:51):
I actually do think it's pretty easy to stand out
as a bit of an all start in an organization
because there's just so many really little things people aren't
willing to do, Like, for example, at the end of
the day, before you shut your laptop and walk out
the door actually announcing, Hey, I'm probably going to wrap
up soon. Is there anything I can help you with?
That is just simply kind of caring, asking if anyone
(40:14):
needs a hand, showing that you're a team player, And
most of the time no one will say anything anyway.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
They'll be like, oh, no, no thanks though hashell like
have a good night, you go home, like, oh my god,
it's already five thirty, Like, yeah, that's the conversation.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
Yeah, there's just little things that I think can make you.
Speaker 5 (40:31):
Stand out, or like the way you celebrate other people
in the team, or if you're a leader, exposing members
of your own team in public slack channels and calling
out their work.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
There's just, yeah, so many little things that I think.
Speaker 5 (40:47):
It also positions you as a leader, even if you're
doing those things and you're not one, which I think
then can get eyes on you for promotional opportunities, and
it's kind of the way you carry yourself. So I
do I think there's an element of like simplicity and
just doing things like that to your point as well
about you know, maybe being a bit intimidated by the tech.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Industry because it's scary.
Speaker 5 (41:10):
Yeah, it's like, I'm not really I wouldn't say I
necessarily fit a tech go you.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Grew a tech business, you sold a tech business. I
think you.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
I think you're very well educated in this space.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
It's weird, though, because.
Speaker 5 (41:23):
I would never have put that if someone told me
I was going to do that when I was in
year twelve, I'd be.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
Like, oh no, no, working in finance ball.
Speaker 5 (41:31):
But I also think tech has so many different ways
to get involved in it without needing to be an engineer.
Like you can be a product designer, you could be
a project manager, you could be marketing, you could be
in social content. There are so many different doorways. Granted,
if you do want to go on and found a
tech company, it's like you will need to find an engineer.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
Oh, you're going to have to play in that space, yes,
but you.
Speaker 5 (41:57):
Can then attract engineers if you've worked alongside them previously,
so that can really help as an avenue in But
I think one of the coolest things about tech is
they are very fast, aggressively wired, growth type environments, and
I feel like if you can get involved in a
startup early, like one of the first ten employees, it
(42:22):
just has the opportunity to really catapult your career because
you will have to act like an owner whether you
want to or not. You will have to develop an
appetite for risk, You will have to get comfortable with
being agile. Like, there are just loads of skills that
you have to build that I think you can make
you really well rounded and appealing to other environments. And
(42:43):
it's a very unique experience and it doesn't need to
make you like, I'm not necessarily saying you need to
be a Unicorn startup like the Bumble experience, but I
think you can learn those skills in any startup environment.
To be honest, they're also kind of toxic.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
But it's like.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
Right now, what I'm hearing from this conversation as well
is something that I feel like I need to point
out because as women, we always underestimate our ability. We
always like go, oh, maybe I need to go back
to university, or we say things like, oh, I'm not
smart enough for that, or I haven't got experience in that.
All the things that you just said make you this
(43:27):
like unicorn employee, like being on time, caring about your job,
going above and beyond. None of that actually involves intelligence.
Now they all involve you just giving a shit and
stepping up. And I think that, you know, it's twenty
twenty five, but so many people aren't willing to step
up now, Like, and that's probably a little bit controversial
(43:50):
to say, but I see it on socials all the time,
like I see it online, and I see it in
you know, individuals. I'm you know, always hiring at the moment,
or it feels like I'm always hiring and like our
team is growing, and you just see it even in interviews.
You go, you don't give two shits, Like you just
want to clock in at nine am, clock out at
five pm, and like that's actually irrespective of whether the
(44:11):
job requires that. That's not the type of person I
want to surround myself with. And when you know, even
individual step back and you think about what type of
people do you want to surround yourself with. I want
a team that champions each other. I want a team
that says, oh, hey, did anybody need a hand before
the end.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
Of the day. Like it's not the big things.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
It's not the degrees, it's not the you know, how
much you spent on college, it's not any of that.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
It's actually about being a good bloody human. Yeah, it's
an attitude and that's hard. Now, Yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker 5 (44:42):
I have found the hiring I got asked a question
last night and it's like, what would go down in
sun room law? And I was thinking, yes, please, Well,
I was thinking it's just all the personnel stuff where
Lucy and I would look at each other and be like,
what the hell was that? Like, you can get really blindsided.
It's really hard to find good people. And that's why
(45:04):
I think once you've got them, like we had some
amazing employees and like we looked after them so well,
would do anything to retain them and just feel so
like indebted to them, and like that's how.
Speaker 3 (45:17):
I feel about my current team, and I'm obsessed with them.
Please nobody rock the boat. Yeah all right, So I
know I'm running out of time with you very quickly.
So for anyone who's listening, who's maybe scared of making
a really big career change, what would you say to
them right now? We've obviously talked about a lot, but like,
what would you just direct advice say?
Speaker 5 (45:36):
I said this to myself when I took the job
at Bumble, and I've said it to myself with like
every step I've taken sins and it's so simple and basic,
and it's just better to try and fail. Better to
try and fail than to have never tried it all.
And I just that's kind of like my life motto.
And so I really don't think there's even now selling
(45:57):
this company. I don't think there's such thing as failure
at all, because you do learn so much and I've
kind of just proven through this process you can take
it and then command way more where you go next.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
So I just I don't know, it's not that deep,
but it's not that deep. Just do it. If it
doesn't work out, you can go back to your old job.
Just don't burn bridges, do like.
Speaker 5 (46:20):
The icky guy and use that framework, because I think
it'll just reinforce that you're probably ready.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
But yeah, I just think like better to try and
fail than to have never tried at all.
Speaker 3 (46:30):
Love love, Well, Unfortunately, Michelle, that is all we have
time for today. I know you are a very busy woman,
so thank you so much for joining us and for
sharing just so.
Speaker 2 (46:39):
Much with us.
Speaker 3 (46:40):
I feel like we did get a little bit pervy.
We learned about your new job to sale of your business.
But like most importantly, we learnt just do it, just
rip the mandate off. It's not that deep and that
sounds really silly, but I promise looking back, it's honestly
so much more about the journey than the actual destination,
because how many times do you get to the destination
then you're like saying it, I'm selling it.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
And we're going to do it again exactly. Thanks for
having me, of course.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
And guys, if you loved this episode as much as
I have loved recording it for you, go and follow
Michelle to keep up with everything she's working on. I'm
going to make sure that all of her links are
in the show notes. And while you're at it, if
you found this chat inspiring, share with a friend and
make sure you're subscribed so that you never miss an episode.
I'll see you guys on Friday. Bye did By shared.
Speaker 4 (47:31):
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does not consider your individual circumstances. She's on the Money
exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied
upon to make an investment or financial decision. If you
do choose to buy a financial product, read the PDS
TMD and obtain appropriate financial.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
Advice tailored towards your needs.
Speaker 4 (47:51):
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of money.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
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Speaker 4 (47:57):
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(00:24):
the lands of the Aboriginal people. We thank, acknowledge and
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Take pleasure in all the land and respect all that
you see. She's on the Money podcast acknowledges culture, country,
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for you to thrive.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
She's on the Money. She's on the Money.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Hello and welcome to She's on the Money, the podcast
that helps you build your career, grow your income, and
actually get excited for Monday mornings. Our guest today has
a serious talent for spotting opportunities most people would probably
be too scared to chase, and then actually making them happen.
She's gone from a very safe corporate job to launching
(01:28):
the dating app Bumble here in Australia to co founding Sunroom,
a platform changing the way women and non binary creators
make money. Along the way, she's raised millions, built brands
that explode in the press, and crafted a career on
her own terms. I'm your host, Victoria Devine, and here's
why I'm so excited about this chat. Michelle Battersby is
(01:50):
the kind of person who shows you how to take
bold moves and turn them into a career that just
keeps getting better.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Welcome to the show, Michelle, or should I.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Say welcome to the show because you kind of did
a cameo while I was on Matt Leaf.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, I was thinking I have done this, but I've
never done.
Speaker 5 (02:05):
This with you.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
No, no, you got to take the wheel, and now
I've got the wheel back and now I get to
interview you, which is.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Very, very fun. I'm genuinely so excited about this. You
live in La so this I feel like has been
a long time coming, and a lot of like, what's
your calendar look like?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
What's my calendar look like? Oh?
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Maybe not this trip, maybe next trip? Okay, what about
next trip? Like, yeah, we finally face to face.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
I know, feel surreal.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
I'm so excited, like and I just know that my
community is going to be like, this episode's going to
be lit. So Michelle, when we have a little bit
of a look at your CV, I would say it
is nothing short of inspiring, which is exactly why in
the show I'm going to be taking the opportunity to
kind of put you in the hot seat and answer
the career questions that our community is sending us consistently,
(02:51):
things like how do you know when it's time to
change careers? And how do you actually be successful in
the tech space as women? What does this look like?
But first you've been working on I would say something
massive behind the scenes, and it's taken like now more
than a year, tell me about it.
Speaker 5 (03:07):
Yeah, it has taken a very long time. So we
got some room acquired, so it's been.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Sold as wheeling and dealing.
Speaker 5 (03:17):
Yeah, as we record this, it's actually being announced tonight.
So it's being announced tomorrow morning in the US. The
company that we sold to is a company called fan Fix,
And it was such a journey to get here, Like
an acquisition process is just wild, very different to a
(03:37):
fundraising process I've found, and it had so many ups
and downs. So like, we actually first spoke to this
company about a year ago, but we started moving through
the process with another competitor in our space, and it
was basically, do you know what.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
You need is to to play them off against each other.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (03:56):
Well, it ended up basically being close to a done
deal back in February. And then as like, I think
anyone who sold a company will probably have a similar
experience where you can get really close maybe one two,
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
However many times people.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Needs a signature and then for some reason that part
doesn't go ahead.
Speaker 5 (04:15):
Well, what happened was this company actually ran into some
very public legal struggles that just made them it would
have been an unethical choice. So we had to completely
pull back and go back to the drawing board. And
it felt like such a whiplash and such as lap
in the face at the time, but it actually ended
up being the biggest blessing because we had gone through
(04:37):
the process enough to see how you would structure the
deal and how you would de risk it, and so
we could kind of take a second swing with all
these other people and you're.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Like, this is now not my first rodeo, and I
know what to ask and what to say and how
to structure it and get our way.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Like yeah, how exciting.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Let's backtrack a little bit because for those of you
who have haven't heard of Sunroom, it is a brand
and a platform that lives and breathes its values. As
you can hear, you literally pulled a deal because you're like, dah,
that's unethical. And I feel like a lot of people
when they're at the point of sale, they're like, oh,
that doesn't matter so much, like let's just get it done.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
With, Like I've overlooked it.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
There's money on a stable exactly and Sunroom and you
have obviously this mission and you're really passionate about I
guess sharing real creators and paying them properly and sharing
creator wins. So I guess you were achieving what you
set out to do. You've like done what people probably
(05:35):
thought is not possible at this point. Why did you
feel like right now you were like, Okay, well, obviously
you've been talking about this for twelve months. I think
if someone approached me and said, do you want to
sell your company, I'll be like no, I love my company,
like that's not on the cards, Like why did you
feel like now was a good time to sell?
Speaker 5 (05:53):
Yeah, So, my co founder Lucy and I started Sunroom
with the intent to make women non binary creators as
much money as possible on the Internet.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
And about a.
Speaker 5 (06:03):
Year ago we were approached by someone in our space
to merge. And so it's not like we've been sitting
down talking about M and A and talking about selling
our company. It was I guess, you know the example
that you gave, like someone came to us, but it
did get us thinking, okay, interesting, you know, don't know
if we necessarily want to merge with this company, but
(06:24):
maybe we could sell our company and could we actually
help all the women A non binary creators we've attracted
make more money somewhere else. And so we started looking
at our competitors, but we also started looking at social networks,
talent agencies, even porn companies, like different ways our product
might be appealing to bigger players.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
And we asked ourselves.
Speaker 5 (06:49):
Questions, you know, like do they have a more extensive
feature set than us, do they have more resources, do
they have a bigger team, do they have better brand
awareness and fan fix? The company that we've ended up
selling to They ticked every one of those boxes. They
had a similar ethos to us in terms of how
they thought about creators and supporting creators.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
They built out a product they just would always beat us.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
It was like, you know, that's what you want, Like
in this particular situation.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
It's kind of like that, if you can't beat them,
join them, and we just sell to them. Exactly.
Speaker 5 (07:22):
It just felt like, oh, if we could land with them,
this truly would be an amazing outcome for our creators.
And as we worked through the process, there were many
moving parts and many things to think about. Like you've
got your investors and you're trying to think about what
you know you can return to them. You are kind
of thinking about yourself, like I've made financial sacrifices to
(07:45):
start a business.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
One hundred percent, and you've spoken very openly about, you know,
not earning much and taking massive pay cuts to like
invest literally everything financially and otherwise into Sunroom.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
So like these are big decisions.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
They're not like, oh should we sell, Oh yeah, it's monday.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Let's go. Yeah, and also your staff.
Speaker 5 (08:02):
But then I think where we were in this unique
position because we've got a consumer product and our consumer.
Our product is literally helping women make money, and so
a lot of our users they're paying their rent through
their sunroom earnings, they're paying their car insurance, maybe they're
buying homes, maybe they're.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Paying for their college tuition.
Speaker 5 (08:21):
So the decision of who to sell to, like it
was mostly weighing on what would be the best outcome
for our creators. And it feels so good to be
at this point now and to have actually officially like
done this deal and to have got them an outcome
that actually has the potential to make them way more money.
(08:41):
Like once this finally goes everything is kind of transitioned
over officially tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
I'm so curious to see the data and to see our.
Speaker 5 (08:50):
Creators numbers doubled on this platform because they have that
much more traffic than us, that much more brand orness.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah, so it's like I truly hand on heart.
Speaker 5 (09:00):
I would have found it very hard to I've been
doing calls with our creators for the past week, like
running a very sensitive comms process to bring them in
on this before, so it's not a surprise, and I
would have found those calls very difficult to have if
I couldn't truly basically, yeah, if I couldn't truly say
here's all the ways, like this product can actually help
(09:20):
you in ways that we couldn't.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Yeah, like you've gone from being small to a medium
and now like they actually have the platform of a
large business, but the care and respect and the morals
of a small business still, Like that's a deal exactly.
Speaker 5 (09:34):
And like Lucy and I are advising for them for
the next year, so we're still there to care for
our creators, can be in touch with them, We'll still
be behind the scenes, and it's just it's weird.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
It's a very surreal feeling. But yeah, I feel very
happy about it.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
And I feel like those were probably your biggest priorities
when talking about this sale. Were there any other priorities
that might come as a surprise that you were like,
hold on, I didn't realize I cared so much about this.
This now has to be part of the deal.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
That's a really good question.
Speaker 5 (10:07):
I think as we went through the process, because we
had options, like we had different competitors in our space
that were interested in acquiring us. We also went through
the process for quite an extensive period with a really
big social network and we also were talking to quite
a big porn site as well for months, and I think, what.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Sort of maje your emails look really good?
Speaker 5 (10:32):
I think what was a really interesting learning in that
is that there are so many different ways you can
package your business up and tell the story to appeal
to different people, and just a social network we were
speaking to were really interested in our technology, in our
anti screenshot tech and our team, So the pathway we
(10:52):
were going down with them was an aquahier which wouldn't
have been as good for our creators at the end
of the day, because they were more interested in our
team and tech and how we could maybe be a
project team within their business and work on monetization for them.
And then you've got the porn side of things, which
maybe would have appealed to a percentage of our creator.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
It is not what your creators do as a whole.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
And I think that that's you know, as someone who's
watched Sunroom grow and like followed it like a cult member,
I know that, yes, there are people who create that
content on your platform, and you champion them as much
as everybody else. But there's also just so many women
just creating content for women that you're like, hold on,
would that turn them off?
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Then? Exactly?
Speaker 3 (11:39):
So I feel like that makes sense to me. But
that's as somebody who's been following it going. I actually
really truly feel like I understand what types of creators
you have on this app. And it's not you know,
your OnlyFans content creator. You actually have just people creating good,
face to face content and making a killing at the
same time, and that's really cool.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (12:00):
So I guess it's like we learnt our creators really
were at the forefront of everything that we were doing,
and we made this decision for them. And I think
as I've taken all these calls over the past week
or so, it's been amazing to hear their reaction to
it and that they see the opportunity, that they're excited
about it, that they're proud of kind of where we're at,
and it feels like we made the right choice.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
And I feel like you've been so transparent about like
your career journey and what that's meant, and you are
such a career person, but then recently you became a mum,
so you have now a sixteen month old.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
A fifteen month fifteen as of recording. That's crazy.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
That is crazy, And I feel like we've gone through
this like motherhood journey together on the other side of
the world. Like I've been watching you and you've been
watching me, and we've been like, yep, same queen. We
both have these little buff head boys and it's like
the best thing ever. Yeah, but I feel like that
really changes the way you manage a business and it
changes your priorities. And before your month that's terrifying, Like
(13:00):
both you and I were like what have we done?
Like we wanted this, but also did we want this?
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Like is this?
Speaker 4 (13:06):
You know? Is this it?
Speaker 3 (13:07):
And I think both of us can agree it's the
best thing ever, Like this is the best part of
my entire life. But like, now you've sold your business,
what are you going to miss the most? Because I
feel like that is such a defight it for me,
I find being a business owner. Also I'm a mum,
but like primarily like on socials and the content I
(13:29):
create and I leave and I breathe business and we're
what are you going to miss the most?
Speaker 2 (13:34):
I think what else? I'm not going to miss it?
Initially because I'm doing this advising for a year.
Speaker 5 (13:39):
Yeah, So I will be in on the goss, but
I just loved watching a complete unknown person discover our
product and make bank Like that was just the most
rewarding feeling.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
So I think it's interesting because the little wins.
Speaker 5 (13:55):
I actually I actually ended up feeling a bit resentful
of my of my company in periods because I felt
like I was just surviving off little wins over and
over and over, and I was like, God, can I
just get a big win?
Speaker 2 (14:07):
I can't just live off crumbs.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
Yes, But now that I'm sitting here, I actually think
I will miss those small wins and just being surprised
by someone's potential on the platform. So I'll still get
to hear about that for a year, but then I
think I will miss it. But I yeah, it's interesting.
I don't feel this huge identity shift in this moment
(14:29):
because I've never I think my personal brand and career.
I've existed in big organizations and in my own organization,
so I kind of have like viewed myself as quite fluid.
So I don't I don't feel a great sense of
emotion over not being a founder anymore.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Like what I mean, You're still a founder. You're a
founder who's sold me. Yeah, is that like a step up.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Like a found No? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's boot.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
That's definitely going in the instagram byo. Talk to me
about this though, because I feel like when I learned
that you were selling sun Room.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
I'm like, oh my god, that's so sick. And then
I was like, what's she going to do?
Speaker 3 (15:14):
Like I feel like, oh God, motivationally, you and I
are on the same page, and like I just need
a lot to do, like and whatever I do, I
want to throw myself into and I go, I see
a lot of that in you.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Yeah, what does the next chapter look like? Where are
you going? What are you doing? Because I already know
that you're not going to go I've retired. I don't
do anything now. I'm just going to be a mom.
That's not you.
Speaker 5 (15:39):
That was the most painful part of how long this
process took for me. It was knowing this is going
to happen, but I can't wnk about it. I can't
publicly begin to explore other things. I need to sit
in complete silence and wait.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
That would kill me. Oh my god. I was born
to yap, so that just wouldn't work for me. And
I'm so impatient.
Speaker 5 (16:00):
This has been the hardest year for me mentally to
trust that it was going to come to this moment
and it was going to work out and in a
monkst selling my company. Like back in February when that
first deal fell through, that was the same month I
found out I was pregnant. Oh my god, So I've
got an eight month old, I'm pregnant and I'm selling
my company and now I'm not do you know what,
(16:23):
go hard or go home?
Speaker 2 (16:24):
And now I'm not selling my company, so like what
what do I do?
Speaker 5 (16:28):
You know?
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Like, it was really quite scary, Like I cried. I
would have cried a lot. I would have been under
the table rocking just a little bit. Yeah, I was
really scared. Also, I live in the US, so.
Speaker 5 (16:43):
To be a pregnant woman potentially trying to work out
if I'm going to re enter the workforce or what
I'm going to do. I just had a lot of
thoughts and what's happening with my health cover you know,
I'm pregnant.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Lots of things figure out, and so I really had to.
I did a lot of chat japt hard Pools through
that period. Yeah, good good.
Speaker 6 (17:03):
That shows you where my mind was at you know what,
We've all been there, Yeah, but I really just had
to trust that, you know, like the universe usually has
my back, and I would figure it out and we
like definitely got the train back on the tracks.
Speaker 5 (17:17):
And it was looking pretty positive like throughout this year
towards this acquisition, and I knew at the time I
would look back at this year and actually be really
grateful that I had the time to sit with my
thoughts and to reflect. And I thought about consulting, and
I thought about starting my own business, and then I realized,
(17:38):
I think I want to go and work for a
brand again. Like I when I think about my career,
I just feel so I have so many fond memories
of my Bumble time. I like to kind of take
something that I see the potential in and like try
to blow it up.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
And so I began to reach.
Speaker 5 (17:58):
Out to invest that we had at Sunroom that I trusted,
and one of our investors is this woman called Michelle
Kennedy and she was actually on the board at Bumble.
She came up with the name Bumble and she invested
in That's so cool, yeah, And she invested in Sunroom.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
So she's kind of like always like been there, just
out of the journey. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (18:18):
And she's the founder and CEO of Peanut, which is
a platform, a community platform for moms you can also track.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Very popular in the US, but it's taking I guess
Australia by storm, like I'm on Peanut, are you?
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (18:32):
I like send you screenshots to be like tracking a coincidence,
like look at my Peanut messages.
Speaker 5 (18:37):
Yes, it's an amazing platform. I actually downloaded it when
I was pregnant with Alfie because I.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Seem like when I was having Harvey, I was like,
I don't know what I'm doing.
Speaker 5 (18:45):
Yeah. Yeah, So there's forums, you can track your pregnancy,
you can connect with other women. And I didn't know
where that conversation was going to go. I was just
feeling a bit lost, and so I actually think I asked,
you know, can I consult or contract for you?
Speaker 2 (18:59):
As I'm kind of figuring out where my next move is.
Speaker 5 (19:01):
Yeah, And she ended up being in LA She's based
in the UK, and I went and met her at
a hotel and I think we want to talk for
thirty minutes and it ended up being two hours.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
When those happened, because you just feel like you have
like a deeper connection and then you're like, wow, this
is really cool.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (19:16):
And then at the end of that meeting, it kind
of went from potentially contracting to I actually think you
need to like come and like run this with me,
and yeah, I just got goose bumps, which is you.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
I just got signed bumps. Like literally, I'm like, ah, yes,
good world.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
I feel like sometimes we feel like the universe doesn't
have our back, and then it's like moments like these,
it's like it does.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
It does have your back. I just couldn't believe it.
Speaker 5 (19:42):
I got tears in my eyes, and I just respect
her so much, and I just thought the opportunity to
be able to work alongside her on a product I
care about this problem and it's something I think about
when I'm in the shower. It's how I show up
online naturally. Anyway, it just felt like this is a
perfect It felt too good to be true. When you
told me, I was like, yes, that is perfect. Yeah,
(20:05):
I'm still waiting for it to fall apart.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
To be honest, it's not going to It's not going
to fall apart. It's going to fall together.
Speaker 4 (20:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:12):
So I'm actually today is actually meant to be my
first official day as president of Peanut, and I'm going to.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
Go, you're president of Peanut, yes, And how many weeks
pregnant are you?
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Thirty?
Speaker 3 (20:24):
So you're thirty weeks pregnant and got a job in
the US as the president of a company.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Hmm, okay, pop off, you know what not, biggie.
Speaker 5 (20:32):
It is a crazy moment, and I was so scared,
like navigating that with my pregnancy as well.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
You know, I had so much angst because.
Speaker 5 (20:40):
I thought, oh, I really want to get in the door,
I want to get some runs on the board, and
that I do need to go and have my yeah,
second child. But yeah, it just feels like, honestly, such
a perfect ending and like start of this new chapter
for me, and I just honestly couldn't be more excited.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
In addition to all of that, like that's all so good,
but the ethos of Peanut, the user experience of Peanut,
the clients on Peanut, Sorry you're on the journey with them,
Like what a better person to know them and show
them than someone going through the journey and be like, no,
this is what I needed, And like I feel like
we need more of that.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Yeah, it's literally so perfect. I'm so excited for you.
Thank you. It's very cool.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
All right, let's take a really quick break because I
promised at the start of this episode that I would
ask you like career questions that my community had instead
talking about your journey.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
I'm like, well, what else, Michelle, what's talking about me?
So we will.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
I would love to keep talking about you, but our
community has questions that I think you are going to
answer incredibly well, So.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Don't go anywhere, guys.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
All right, we are back, and like I promised, it
is time to put Michelle in the hot seat, not
just the interview seat, to give us a little bit
of career advice. We have so many career questions that
come through literally every single week into our DMS, and
I would say that one of our biggest questions that
we get from our community is saying they just don't
know whether they should make the creer leap, Like that
(22:07):
is so scary, Like do I take a step back?
Do I apply for a job that I'm not qualified for?
Do I, you know, take a step forward and do
a little bit of training, Like what if I don't
even like it?
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Like what do I do?
Speaker 3 (22:17):
So Michelle, what other signs you think mean it's time
to change things up and.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Take that next step.
Speaker 5 (22:24):
I honestly think the number one sign is that you're
even thinking about it.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
I agree, no, that you're thinking it, do it? Yes,
it's it's definitely that. I think.
Speaker 5 (22:32):
If you've got those underlying feelings but they're just making
you feel uncomfortable so you're ignoring them, that's your trigger
to start really like digging into this. And I honestly
think a great first step is just talking to people
about it, admitting that that's the way you feel. I
think it then depends how like what your risk appetite
is like, so probably both of us we would just
(22:55):
dive head into something without really thinking.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Much, honestly, like as much as it's worked out for
both of us, Like I think we are both equally
chaotic and like people. And I'm going to ask you
this in a minute, but people always like, oh my god,
you're so like intentional, and I'm like.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Am I am?
Speaker 3 (23:12):
I just seemed like a good idea and I didn't
take any time to look at the risks.
Speaker 5 (23:16):
But yes, intention yeah, I think there's a couple of
ways you can play it. There's a couple of frameworks
that I love. I think if you're the sort of
person who needs a bit of structure. So one thing
that I actually did before I started sun Room, which
was almost out of character for me, is have you hurt?
Do you know what an ikey guy is?
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (23:34):
I have.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
This course calls your Best Year Yet that I launch
at the start of every year, and that is one
of my suggested readings, Go find your ikey guys.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 5 (23:43):
So it's basically a Japanese framework for finding your purpose
in life, but it's been transformed and you can apply
it to your career.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
So you really just ask yourself four questions. It's what
am I good? What do I love? What does the world? Sorry?
What am I good at? Yet? I put the ass
at the end of that, I knew what you meant
what everybody else knew to what am I good at?
What do I love? What does the world need? And
what can I be paid for? And I actually looked
back at my ikey guy that I did.
Speaker 5 (24:12):
In twenty twenty when I was founding sun Room, like
a year ago, as I was navigating my career as
a mum. I came back to it as like it
was almost my personal north star and realized I wasn't
actually doing any of the things I loved or was
good at in my day to day, like I had
been taken down this rabbit hole of just you know,
the daily grind. And so it's a really good exercise
(24:34):
to also come back to if you're feeling it's.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
A little bit confronting, not gonna lie. I went through
it a year ago when I was like, oh, this
best year yet. Course has been out for a while
and it's really popular. I'm just going to go back
through all of the readings and I really read the
book and I was like, cool, I need to just
get a little bit more on track with what I
said I was going to do. But it can be
really helpful, Like that's one of my favorite resources.
Speaker 5 (24:57):
Yeah, so I think that's a good one to start with.
Then Tim Ferriss actually has a line of questioning in
his book The Four Hour Work Week, So I think
this is a little bit more tactical. So the first
thing that you do is about defining your fears. So
you ask yourself a whole bunch of what if questions,
and it's like, what if you know the worst outcome,
(25:18):
what if my business fails and I run out of money.
What if my business fails and I lose my visa
and I have to leave the US And you just
get it all.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Down on paper.
Speaker 5 (25:26):
And then part two of that is preventative action, Like, Okay,
here's all the things I'm really scared of, But what
is actually the worst thing that's going to happen. Okay,
my business fails and I run out of money, maybe
I've saved three months salary and that's enough for me
to re enter the world.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
I can re enter the workforce. Ye I always have
that in the back of my head. I'm like, do
you know what I make a mean coffee? I'd be
a sick barista. I can go get a job in
a cafe any day, if the week, yep, I'll be fine.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Yeah. Can't be that deep.
Speaker 5 (25:55):
Exactly, And like, okay, I need to leave the country.
Maybe I have to go live with my parents. Are
a bit I think whenever you're taking some risk, there
is a little bit of an element of needing to
swallow your pride. And you might think everyone's watching you fail.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
They're not. Everyone's too absorbed with themselves, Like it isn't
that big a deal. Really.
Speaker 5 (26:15):
Even when I left banking and started working at Bumble,
I'd never heard of the company. It wasn't established in Australia.
I had no idea if they were even going to
pay me. I quit my job, worked in retail, got
my old job back at a surf store when I
was twenty five, and moved back in with my parents,
and there was just this period of Okay, I just
need to do this until I figure out if this
(26:35):
Bumble is even a legitimate company.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
That's what we need to talk about more as well,
because I think that they're the non shiny things that
you did where people are like, oh, and I feel
like sometimes and this is not I hope not disrespectful,
but sometimes we can put your career on a silver
platter and be like, oh my god, look at what
she did at Bumble and then she's gone on to
build her own business and that's insane. But like, also,
(26:58):
look at the sacrifice you made, Like you went boots
and all into this opportunity, not even knowing if they
would pay you, but you're like really excited about it,
And I'm going to swallow my pride and go get
my job back at my old retail surf store, but like,
no one's talking about that party. But that's the sacrifice
you make to kind of slingshot yourself forward. But then
when people start talking about it, they just they just
(27:20):
see the shiny name and they see obviously what you've done,
and that's incredible. But like it actually takes two parts,
Like you have to kind of like be willing to
spoiler your pride and be willing to take a step back,
because if you're not, the opportunities aren't just sitting there
on a silver platter. They don't look like they're on
a silver platter until you're looking at them retrospectively.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Yeah, one hundred percent.
Speaker 5 (27:40):
I so so believe that, Okay, And then the third
part of this is you ask yourself, what would part
what could partial success look like if I did this?
And I love that question because this kind of segus
nicely off your point. I think sometimes we're focused on
the huge end goal, like not knocking it out of
the park, making load of money, reaching X downloads, or
(28:02):
all these sorts of things.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
But to actually ask yourself what would partial success look like?
Speaker 5 (28:07):
I think it gets you into the right framework, in
the right head space of realizing that there is actually
no failure. If you take a swing and miss, you've
still learnt so much. You've still inflated your own value
as an individual. You can command more wherever you go next.
You can bring unique experiences you didn't have before. So
I really like the partial success question and then the
(28:29):
last one, and this is this is good. It is
what would your life look like if there was no
action taken three months, six months, twelve months from now,
And you break it down into emotional, physical, and financial,
So maybe it's like, Okay, in three months, I'm actually
in a toxic work environment. Emotionally, I'm going to be
(28:50):
way worse off than I'm even feeling now. Like physically,
maybe I'm so burnt out and like overrun and over
this that I'm going to be living in unhealthy lifestyle
because I have no time to get out of the
house or you know, I'm just uber eating every night,
which I got to do anyway, But I.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Want you feel attacked on my own podcast. But you know,
just getting into those sometimes we do what we've got
to do.
Speaker 5 (29:15):
Yeah, exactly, and seasons there are total seasons as well,
But just asking yourself those questions, I think if you're
the sort of person who really needs to see it
on a page and needs a bit more of a push.
Those are two things that I think you can do
to identify if you know you actually really need to
make a jump.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
Yeah, I wanted to ask you about I guess this
like career strategy that if we look at your career,
looks like you are so intentional. You're like, yep, and
I'm going to go to bumble and I'm going to
do this and I'm going to smash it out of
the park. And that's so cool and so inspiring. But
I feel like every single time you've pivoted, and every
(29:52):
single time you've moved to a different role or taken
on becoming a founder, you've obviously added massive skills to
your portfolio, which, as you said before, even if it
doesn't work out, you've got another feather in your hat
that you can command, more pay for, more respect, for
a better job. Like you can do so much with it.
But what advice would you give to someone who's like,
I want to be strategic too, because is there all
(30:15):
that strategy or is it following your passion and following
you know what you think is really exciting and what
lights you up because I feel like so many times,
especially if you are in a salary payg job and
you're like, Okay, cool, I've got this really consistent income coming,
it's a massive risk to leave. Especially honestly, as we
get to be older, our responsibilities are more. We might
(30:37):
have a partner, we might have rent on a more
expensive place, we might have a mortgage, we might have kids,
and that stuff is not twenty five year old decisions, right, Yeah.
Speaker 5 (30:47):
As you were speaking, I was thinking, yeah, I don't
have a strategy, but it actually is a strategy.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
That's the strategy.
Speaker 5 (30:54):
Yeah, I fully just I really trust my intuition, and
I know I questioned myself on why I'm making the
choice that I'm making. So for example, this decision to
go to Peanut, one of the companies that was going
to acquire us ended up offering Lucy and I these packages,
and it was I feel kind of uncomfortable talking about this,
(31:17):
but it's a Shoes on the Money podcast.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
I think we also don't have to because like at
the end of the day, and I said this before
you came on the podcast, like you don't have to
disclose anything. It's nobody's business, Like if you sold for
one hundred dollars or one hundred million dollars, it actually
doesn't matter because it doesn't impact people. What impacts people
is strategy and decision making. And wow, she had the
balls to do that, because do you know what if
you sold for one hundred dollars and you guys had
(31:40):
decided that that was the best thing for your community,
for your business, and for yourselves, that's a sleigh same
thing is true at one hundred million dollars.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
People are just pervy and want.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
To know how rich you got from it, you know, like,
and that's actually none of their business. And I feel
like I do backtracking. I do on Mondays every single
week of money diary, and a lot of people has
said to me, Vitraya, why don't you do a money diary?
And it's like, well, everyone on my show has been
gifted anonymity, Like they come on my show, they tell
me how much they earn, how much they spend, how
(32:10):
much they earn, how much they owe, and they don't
have a name to that, so there's no traceable. Yeah,
if I start coming out and disclosing my income, my salary,
what I pay myself, how I pay myself what my
business is valued at God, that's going to be front
page of the daily mail. And also the people who
care aren't the people who benefit from it. The people
(32:30):
who benefit from that conversation. They're not taking how much
I earned, they're taking, Oh, what strategy did you have?
How did you feel? Like, like Michelle, how do you
back yourself? So I don't want you to be uncomfortable
or answer anything that you're like, oh, I don't know,
because we can admit all of that stuff. But it's
more around like the strategy and the game and what
that looks like, because like, yeah, nobody's going to build
(32:53):
another sun room because it's already in existence, and if
they do, they're already three, probably ten steps behind.
Speaker 5 (32:59):
You know.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
No, I think this is good and like it does
kind of get to the strategy.
Speaker 5 (33:03):
So one of these offers was like an end of
your career type salary I thought I would get, Like
I just kind of.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Was like when I sink Dog. Yeah, I was like.
Speaker 5 (33:14):
Shit, And I went through the process because I also
had I was also really curious to see how am
I valued in a big place like this after I've
done all this. I'd always believed that it didn't really
matter what outcome I got with sun Room, because maybe
I could go to one of these big companies and
(33:34):
I could command a lot. So I was doing it
as a bit of a challenge to myself. I really
wanted to see how would I be leveled, what would
my package look like? And I wasn't really going through
the process with the intent to take the role. Yeah totally,
because I was already listening to my heart. Would you
go shopping? It's the window shopping.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (33:54):
But then when I got it, I was like, oh shit,
like this is very very hard, Like how do you
not take this? And I had to really spend some
time thinking about how it would feel to show up
in you know, I kind of had pe nut and
then I had this other offer, and I was trying
to put myself in the position of showing up at
(34:14):
these workplaces every day and working on the problem and
about where my life is at now. And I'm the
kind of person where if I can't identify with the
problem or the product, if I can identify with the
problem and the product, it just like all clicks and
it feels really easy, and it's like my flow state
and everything just comes and it feels amazing. And that's
(34:42):
kind of how I was feeling about the peanut thing.
But pe nut is like an amazing opportunity, but also
still startup vibes.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
And I've been working in startups for ten years now,
and I found some room very hard. It was very relentless.
Speaker 5 (35:00):
Was a grind the entire way through, And so there
was a part of me that's like, do I need
a break? I'm a Do I take the easier job
that's going to pay me so well?
Speaker 3 (35:10):
I could make bank, But maybe I wouldn't be that happy.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Yes, and I'd be a cog in the wheel.
Speaker 5 (35:17):
Respectfully, I would feel like I'm a cog in the wheel,
and maybe if I wanted to do something, I'd need
to ask two people's permission before I'm allowed to do it,
and maybe they're going to mandate that I.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
And don't get me wrong, like that's not a bad thing,
but I think also, once you've been a founder of
your own business, it is very hard, Yeah, to take
that step back where you aren't like, but I'm happy
to take accountability for this project, Like I don't need
other people sign off.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Yeah, that would be really challenging. For me as well.
Speaker 5 (35:46):
I kind of felt like if I was real, if
I was going to work in an in someone else's
organization again, this Peenut opportunity just felt.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Like bang of.
Speaker 4 (35:57):
Back.
Speaker 5 (35:58):
Yeah, I would still have that like owner mindset or
a bit of like it's not like I need to
be like in power or anything.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
I kind of articulate it.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
But a decision making process is being able.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
To have an idea and just start alementation. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (36:13):
Yeah, Like I don't want to I'm not doing a proposal.
I'm not going to ask three people's permission.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
I need to say, you can't sit on this for
three months and like get me three different quotes and
then we can maybe consider it, and then we don't
have capacity. Sorry, Michelle, Yes exactly. No, that's not how
my brain works.
Speaker 5 (36:28):
Like I just need to be able to shoot my
shot at this and like if it fails, I won't
do it again.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
No issues.
Speaker 5 (36:33):
Yeah, you know, Like I so I really went inward
and I really just trusted my gut and my instincts
and I just to be honest. Even when I saw
the huge offer, it was more like, well I already
knew I'm not going to take it. But I wish
I didn't know what it was that yeah, yeah, yeah,
like I already know I'm going to go with this
(36:54):
other one, but like now I'll.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Know forever that I know that power move. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (37:01):
But I also do think it was like I was
kind of only doing it to build confidence anyway. And
this is why taking I find taking risks easier is
because I just reinforced an assumption that I had, which
is like, I'll probably always be able to go and
get that. Yeah, So I want to follow my heart
and go where I see there's more long term potential
(37:23):
whilst I'm still.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
Really right because there are probably a lot of people
in my community that have these offers. And it's kind
of like also similar in a way to staying where
you're at. You're like, Okay, maybe you've reached that one
hundred thousand dollars salary, and you're like, but I also
know that next year that's going to be one hundred
and ten, and then you know a few years later,
I might be on one twenty and like that feels
(37:45):
really safe and that's like a very good amount of money.
Or do I pivot and go to a different industry
and I don't know what that's going to pay or
I don't know how sustainable that is, And you know
you haven't got enough experience to know what that career
trajectory looks like. You've played very heavily, I would say,
in the tech space over your career. And this is
(38:07):
an industry that we've been talking a lot about on
our podcast because women can make bank and I think
that so many women are scared of tech because they're like, oh,
I'm not really a techy person, like I don't get it.
But from an investment and then also a career angle,
we've talked about this idea of like high risk, high reward,
(38:27):
and lots of people that are listening to the show
we are high risk people because we want the reward.
Like you don't listen to a show like She's on
the Money because you don't want to change your life,
be better at money, be better at finance, have a
better career, have a better life. Like the community that
I have built, they listen to this content because they're
like I want to do better for myself, Like I
want to upgrade, like I want to put myself in
the driver's seat. What do you think are the key
(38:50):
things that made you so successful in tech, both as
an employee but then now as a startup founder.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
That has exited.
Speaker 5 (39:00):
Interesting question because it really was Bumble that was sort
of this break through moment in my career. And I
think what helped me get ahead at Bumble was I
really gave a shit. A lot of people don't care
about their jobs, and it's fine if it's fine if
you don't care about your job.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
There are also certain roles where you do just.
Speaker 5 (39:22):
Need someone to clock in at nine, clock out at five,
and maybe it doesn't need to be their passion.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
They've got other passions in life, you know, And there
are lots of jobs that serve that purpose.
Speaker 5 (39:34):
Yeah, But for me, that job at Bumble did become
my purpose, my life, my identity, and so I think
I stood out in that role within the company because
I really lived and breathed it and I went above
and beyond, and I do as I've now gone on.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
To employ people.
Speaker 5 (39:51):
I actually do think it's pretty easy to stand out
as a bit of an all start in an organization
because there's just so many really little things people aren't
willing to do, Like, for example, at the end of
the day, before you shut your laptop and walk out
the door actually announcing, Hey, I'm probably going to wrap
up soon. Is there anything I can help you with?
That is just simply kind of caring, asking if anyone
(40:14):
needs a hand, showing that you're a team player, And
most of the time no one will say anything anyway.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
They'll be like, oh, no, no thanks though hashell like
have a good night, you go home, like, oh my god,
it's already five thirty, Like, yeah, that's the conversation.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
Yeah, there's just little things that I think can make you.
Speaker 5 (40:31):
Stand out, or like the way you celebrate other people
in the team, or if you're a leader, exposing members
of your own team in public slack channels and calling
out their work.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
There's just, yeah, so many little things that I think.
Speaker 5 (40:47):
It also positions you as a leader, even if you're
doing those things and you're not one, which I think
then can get eyes on you for promotional opportunities, and
it's kind of the way you carry yourself. So I
do I think there's an element of like simplicity and
just doing things like that to your point as well
about you know, maybe being a bit intimidated by the tech.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Industry because it's scary.
Speaker 5 (41:10):
Yeah, it's like, I'm not really I wouldn't say I
necessarily fit a tech go you.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Grew a tech business, you sold a tech business. I
think you.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
I think you're very well educated in this space.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
It's weird, though, because.
Speaker 5 (41:23):
I would never have put that if someone told me
I was going to do that when I was in
year twelve, I'd be.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
Like, oh no, no, working in finance ball.
Speaker 5 (41:31):
But I also think tech has so many different ways
to get involved in it without needing to be an engineer.
Like you can be a product designer, you could be
a project manager, you could be marketing, you could be
in social content. There are so many different doorways. Granted,
if you do want to go on and found a
tech company, it's like you will need to find an engineer.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
Oh, you're going to have to play in that space, yes,
but you.
Speaker 5 (41:57):
Can then attract engineers if you've worked alongside them previously,
so that can really help as an avenue in But
I think one of the coolest things about tech is
they are very fast, aggressively wired, growth type environments, and
I feel like if you can get involved in a
startup early, like one of the first ten employees, it
(42:22):
just has the opportunity to really catapult your career because
you will have to act like an owner whether you
want to or not. You will have to develop an
appetite for risk, You will have to get comfortable with
being agile. Like, there are just loads of skills that
you have to build that I think you can make
you really well rounded and appealing to other environments. And
(42:43):
it's a very unique experience and it doesn't need to
make you like, I'm not necessarily saying you need to
be a Unicorn startup like the Bumble experience, but I
think you can learn those skills in any startup environment.
To be honest, they're also kind of toxic.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
But it's like.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
Right now, what I'm hearing from this conversation as well
is something that I feel like I need to point
out because as women, we always underestimate our ability. We
always like go, oh, maybe I need to go back
to university, or we say things like, oh, I'm not
smart enough for that, or I haven't got experience in that.
All the things that you just said make you this
(43:27):
like unicorn employee, like being on time, caring about your job,
going above and beyond. None of that actually involves intelligence.
Now they all involve you just giving a shit and
stepping up. And I think that, you know, it's twenty
twenty five, but so many people aren't willing to step
up now, Like, and that's probably a little bit controversial
(43:50):
to say, but I see it on socials all the time,
like I see it online, and I see it in
you know, individuals. I'm you know, always hiring at the moment,
or it feels like I'm always hiring and like our
team is growing, and you just see it even in interviews.
You go, you don't give two shits, Like you just
want to clock in at nine am, clock out at
five pm, and like that's actually irrespective of whether the
(44:11):
job requires that. That's not the type of person I
want to surround myself with. And when you know, even
individual step back and you think about what type of
people do you want to surround yourself with. I want
a team that champions each other. I want a team
that says, oh, hey, did anybody need a hand before
the end.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
Of the day. Like it's not the big things.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
It's not the degrees, it's not the you know, how
much you spent on college, it's not any of that.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
It's actually about being a good bloody human. Yeah, it's
an attitude and that's hard. Now, Yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker 5 (44:42):
I have found the hiring I got asked a question
last night and it's like, what would go down in
sun room law? And I was thinking, yes, please, Well,
I was thinking it's just all the personnel stuff where
Lucy and I would look at each other and be like,
what the hell was that? Like, you can get really blindsided.
It's really hard to find good people. And that's why
(45:04):
I think once you've got them, like we had some
amazing employees and like we looked after them so well,
would do anything to retain them and just feel so
like indebted to them, and like that's how.
Speaker 3 (45:17):
I feel about my current team, and I'm obsessed with them.
Please nobody rock the boat. Yeah all right, So I
know I'm running out of time with you very quickly.
So for anyone who's listening, who's maybe scared of making
a really big career change, what would you say to
them right now? We've obviously talked about a lot, but like,
what would you just direct advice say?
Speaker 5 (45:36):
I said this to myself when I took the job
at Bumble, and I've said it to myself with like
every step I've taken sins and it's so simple and basic,
and it's just better to try and fail. Better to
try and fail than to have never tried it all.
And I just that's kind of like my life motto.
And so I really don't think there's even now selling
(45:57):
this company. I don't think there's such thing as failure
at all, because you do learn so much and I've
kind of just proven through this process you can take
it and then command way more where you go next.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
So I just I don't know, it's not that deep,
but it's not that deep. Just do it. If it
doesn't work out, you can go back to your old job.
Just don't burn bridges, do like.
Speaker 5 (46:20):
The icky guy and use that framework, because I think
it'll just reinforce that you're probably ready.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
But yeah, I just think like better to try and
fail than to have never tried at all.
Speaker 3 (46:30):
Love love, Well, Unfortunately, Michelle, that is all we have
time for today. I know you are a very busy woman,
so thank you so much for joining us and for
sharing just so.
Speaker 2 (46:39):
Much with us.
Speaker 3 (46:40):
I feel like we did get a little bit pervy.
We learned about your new job to sale of your business.
But like most importantly, we learnt just do it, just
rip the mandate off. It's not that deep and that
sounds really silly, but I promise looking back, it's honestly
so much more about the journey than the actual destination,
because how many times do you get to the destination
then you're like saying it, I'm selling it.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
And we're going to do it again exactly. Thanks for
having me, of course.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
And guys, if you loved this episode as much as
I have loved recording it for you, go and follow
Michelle to keep up with everything she's working on. I'm
going to make sure that all of her links are
in the show notes. And while you're at it, if
you found this chat inspiring, share with a friend and
make sure you're subscribed so that you never miss an episode.
I'll see you guys on Friday. Bye did By shared.
Speaker 4 (47:31):
On She's on the Money is general in nature and
does not consider your individual circumstances. She's on the Money
exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied
upon to make an investment or financial decision. If you
do choose to buy a financial product, read the PDS
TMD and obtain appropriate financial.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
Advice tailored towards your needs.
Speaker 4 (47:51):
Victoria Divine and She's on the Money are authorized representatives
of money.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
Sirper Pty Ltd
Speaker 4 (47:57):
ABN three two one six four nine and two seven
seven zero eight a f s L four five one
two eight nine
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