April 25, 2023 • 51 mins
Aussies are among the most under insured people in the world, our “she’ll be right” mentality puts us at risk of being in dire straights when unexpected things happen with our health. 45.5% of the Australian population experience a mental health condition at some point in their lifetime. This means it shares the stage with cancer and heart disease the most common of medical life disrupters. Today we take a truthful look at the cost of mental health care so you’re not caught out, and shut out of the care you deserve!
Acknowledgement of Country By Natarsha Bamblett aka Queen Acknowledgements.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, my name's Santasha Nabananga Bamblet. I'm a proud yr
the Order Kerney Whoalbury and a waddery woman. And before
we get started on She's on the Money podcast, I
would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land
of which this podcast is recorded on a wondery country,
acknowledging the elders, the ancestors and the next generation coming
(00:22):
through as this podcast is about connecting, empowering, knowledge sharing
and the storytelling of you to make a difference for
today and lasting impact for tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Let's get into it. She's on the Money, She's on
the Money.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Hello, and welcome to She's on the Money, the podcast
for millennials who want financial freedom. Two weeks ago we
did an episode on the cost of care with Rhiann
and Tracy, who was so good.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
That was such a great episode us.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
We covered a whole range of diseases and injuries and
looked at the real and very hidden costs of living
with these conditions. It was such a huge episode and
so eye opening, so I recommend taking a listen if
you haven't already. But we just wanted to do a
few more episodes focusing on particular conditions because there is
so much to learn and discuss. Today. We're looking at
(01:32):
mental health, the stats, the hidden and real costs, and
so much more. My name is Beck and with me
is Victoria Devine.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Hello, my love, how are you?
Speaker 4 (01:43):
You know?
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I'm pretty nice and chills. Oh, you're pretty nice today.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
I feel like, you know, when you're like a slightly sleepy,
but not enough to be like tired, tired, You're just
kind of in a chill.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
No, the second I get slightly slightly I'm like, does
this man, I get to go to bed? Any excuse
to go to bed? Mental health goback? Okay, because I
am wildly passionate about this topic, but also just about
talking about insurance and talking about protecting ourselves and putting
ourselves in the best possible position. And you already know
because I have drummed this into you that as Australians
(02:15):
we are some of the most underinsured people in the
entire world. But also I really hope that by talking
about the realities of the costs behind these illnesses and conditions,
we can actually really help open up conversation about the
realities of living with these conditions and the stigma that
currently and still unfortunately surrounds them, and mental health is
(02:36):
something that is so close to my own heart.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
So before we get.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
Even further into this, I do think that this episode
deserves a content warning. So if the discussion around mental
health and the topic of suicide is not going to
be a conversation you want to have today, that is
totally fine, my loves. I have put some resources in
our show notes to make sure that you can reach
out for the support that you need and deserve. But
also don't feel bad to just skip this episode skip ahead.
(03:03):
Turns out, beg, We've got a lot of other episodes
you can listen to that won't talk about those topics.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
You won't be missing out.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
No, you won't be missing I mean hopefully you will
be missing out because it's a really good topic. I
think that, yeah, there's a time and a place for
conversations like that, and if you're not in the headspace
for it, don't do it because it's not worth it.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Totally fine, that's very well said. Be So that actually
is ought to get to today. But what is a
snapshot of the prevalence of mental health conditions in Australia.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
So I've gone on and on about this. The cost
of care white paper by Zurich is one of my
favorite white papers ever produced because we really didn't have
enough insight into the cost of these conditions before that
we could google it and like there was I guess,
you know, eclectic resources on this, but there wasn't like
one paper that had really focused on it. And I mean,
(03:49):
this paper was done a few years ago, and I'm
absolutely certain that they are probably going to re release
one at some point. I would love to see one
on the cost of mental health during COVID. I feel
like that would be a really interesting read. And as
an ex financial advisor, I obviously had a lot of
exposure to this side of it, and I don't think
the general public goes you know.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
What I'm going to do.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
I'm going to go to an insurer's website. I'm going
to read their white papers on the cost of care.
But a promise it's really exciting, riveting stuff, and this
white paper, I guess to go more into it. It
talked about the cost of care of mental health.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
So forty five point five percent of the total population
beck experience a mental health condition at some point in
their life.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Half of us. Well, it slower than I thought.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
I kind of think it's lower, and I know that
it should be like it's a big number and it
should be like, oh my gosh, that's a lite.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
Yeah, I just feel like it's I don't know. I'm
not going to disagree with Zurich because they're actual, genuine researchers.
I'm just a plub x financial advisor who was given
a podcast like I don't even know how that happened.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Still, but I just feel like I just keep it health.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
Yeah. No, I really don't get it, like it's like
imposter syndrome, but like it's not imposter syndrome. I'm genuinely
an imposta, Like I don't suggest.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
A postra no no syndrome.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
I guess when we talk about forty five point five
percent of the total population experiencing a mental health condition,
one hundred percent of us, from my perspective, have mental health.
Whether we have a conditional or not is going to
depend a lot on our medical history and the circumstances
we are exposed to, and the environment that we grow
up in and the environments that we experience and the
(05:30):
events that we go through and the trauma that we experience.
And there's so many things, right, but from my perspective,
every single one of us has mental health, and we
either have really good mental health and you're very, very lucky,
or you experience some you know, mental health issues along
the way. So I think that's important to differentiate at
the start, like you don't just not have mental health
(05:51):
like we all do. The prevalence means it actually shares
the stage beack with cancer and heart disease as a
group of high impact medical life disruptors, and mental health
conditions are present in all ages and in all socioeconomic groups,
which I don't think is going to come as a
surprise to any of us. Mental health conditions can include
(06:13):
effective disorders, so things like depression and bipolar and schizophrenia,
anxiety disorders including panic attacks and stress disorders, and substance
abuse disorders so alcohol and drug dependencies fall under this.
One in six women and one in eight men beck
will experience depression during their lifetime, and one in three
(06:35):
women and one in five men will experience anxiety. Mental
health conditions are most common in those aged between twenty
five and thirty four years old, affecting nearly one in
four and this then declines with age, and they affect
women more than men across all age groups and those
living in rural areas. And individuals spend and estimated thirteen
(06:59):
hundred and fifty dollars per year out of pocket for
mental health conditions, with medications accounting for one third of
these cost Wow, isn't that wild.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Have you had any experience with kind of like the
i'd say, prescribed mental health drug?
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yes, I have.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
I guess you're new here, so welcome to you know,
a little bit of a deep dive into Victoria's medical history.
So I have been diagnosed with clinical depression and anxiety.
I also have ADHD and have a mental health history
of eating disorders.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
So I was hospitalized.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
In my teenage years for a significant period of time
for anorexia. And that is something that you know on
previous episodes I've spoken about and I think it's just
so important to just address it. I don't think it
changes my value as a human being. I don't think
it changes anything about the way you should view me.
In fact, I think that those experiences have just made
(07:58):
my experience richer. Right, And when I talk about a
topic like this, I am speaking from experience, I have
been medicated since the age of fourteen for depression and anxiety.
I've tried a number of different medications, and I'm still
on a medication today, and I take what I guess
doctors would deem a relatively high dosage of depression and
(08:19):
anxiety medication. And I strongly believe I'm never coming off
that I have tried coming off that, because there have
been periods of my life where I go, I don't
want to be medicated, like and there's the stigma that
you apply to yourself when you're like, I don't need
this medication anymore.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
But I guess.
Speaker 4 (08:35):
Now the period of my life that I am in,
I have come to the realization that my medication for
my anxiety and my depression is actually a bit like
the medication a diabetic would have, right, and a diabetic
it doesn't have enough insulin to make their body function properly. Right,
so you would go, okay, diabetic, here's some insulin.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
And I mean that's a very.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
Basic way of explos They get that their life can
carry on as normal, and beck you would know, you
don't just get better and then all of a sudden
start producing insulin. As a diabetic, you just take that
for the rest of your life and monitor those levels
and make sure they're okay.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Right.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
I believe the same happens in my brain because my
depression and anxiety isn't trauma related. It's actually just I
think it could potentially be just in my genetics. It's
in my DNA, and I just don't have enough dopamine
and I don't have enough serotonin in my brain. And
I take those drugs to make sure that I can
function at the same level as you can. So from
(09:36):
my experience, yes, I have had a lot of experience
with drugs. I have drugs that have worked for me.
I've had drugs that haven't worked for me. I've had
to go through a drug withdrawal program because my depression
drugs were really messing with me. And I also take
stimulants for my ADHD, but I am not good at
taking those stimulants because I don't like how they make
me feel sure, so I avoid them, and that would
(09:59):
be really, really tough. If there's something that you, I
guess maybe need is need a strong word.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yeah, no, no, I definitely need to need to take them.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Yeah, And you don't like the way you feel when
you take them, and that's just that seems like a
really unfortunate kind of like catch twenty two.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
It's a massive catch twenty two. And I suppose I'm
so lucky in that for me medication. I mean, I
talk about the stigma, right, and I say, oh, I
went off them because I just didn't want them back.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
I just didn't want.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
To be on medication, Like at the end of the day,
it's just something I didn't want. But no one really
wants that, right, Like you don't want to be taking
insulin for the rest of your life, but you do
it because you want to be healthy, and that's just
the key to it.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Right.
Speaker 4 (10:40):
So I think for me my need, I don't have
a choice. If I don't take my anxiety and depression drugs,
I'm not a functional member of society. I just am
not I am not happy, I am not kind, I
am not any of those things. But then if I
don't take my stimulants, I'm just not as productive. And
I mean, I feel very luck key to live in
(11:01):
twenty twenty three and I have access to a plethora
of research. And I've said this before and it's not
you know, I don't want to name the supplements I
take because we've talked about it before. I'm not a doctor,
and this is me sharing my anecdotal experience, not me
sharing medical information. And I would hate for you to go,
oh my gosh. Well, Victorious said on a podcast that
(11:22):
this particular supplement helped her, Like, that's not from my perspective,
responsible of me to share that. Just because it works
for me doesn't mean it will work for you. But
I have done so much personal research into different supplements
and like mushrooms, like the non not magic mushrooms, like
different types of mushrooms and supplements and things that I
(11:43):
can take that kind of act in a way that
a stimulant does. And if you're in that circumstance and
you want to do that, research is really easy to find.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Like it's not hard.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
It's all over TikTok, it's all over Instagram, it's all
over Google. You just google it and you can stuck
going down that rabbit hole and working out what might
work for you. But sure, yeah, my stimulants I rely
on maybe like a couple of times a week when
I can really have to set my mind to something
or I'm feeling extra agitated or I'm feeling extra bouncy.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, just like that.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
But like even in this moment, I'm not on my
stimulants because I think there's so many things going on
and there's so much structure. Yeah, it's an interesting concept
when we can talk about I guess totally my experience
is in more depth at some point in the future. Absolutely,
those mine. What about your experiences?
Speaker 2 (12:28):
I'm very lucky.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
I don't actually have any not to say that, unicorn.
I'm like, yeah, like I don't have any medication that
I take regularly for anything.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Money win money, win big money.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
When I feel like there was a moment maybe for
a year or two there where I was like really
discovering myself and I had some pretty bad social anxiety,
but I didn't diagnose it. I didn't know what it was.
I didn't know why I felt really introverted and stuff.
So I spent a lot of money on like New
Tropics and all the weird like you know, not necessarily weird,
but just like, no, it's weird. I was just obsessed
(13:01):
with like how do I make my brain feel uninhibited again?
And so that was probably the most expensive thing but
as far as this really expensive, I was like, yeah,
I was gone down the mushroom train as well myself.
But that's the only thing really I don't I'm very,
very fortunate to say that I don't have to take
anything for anything for any reason. And it's very cheap,
(13:23):
I would think, and we will find out.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
Actually yeah, I mean that's the money when that you're
not on any medications and don't have any of those
associated costs. But it's a money loss if you were
experiencing mental health and you weren't taking the right medications,
because it ultimately impacts every other aspect of your life, right,
And I think it's interesting conundrum to be in as well.
Like even I mean complete tangent again me talking about
(13:47):
taking a whole heap of supplements. I again so privileged
to be able to afford these supplements, but like one
of my bottles that I purchase online. By the way,
when I'm talking about mushrooms, I feel like I'm crazy, no,
because it's like something that a lot of people might
not have heard of. We're not talking medicinal like magic mushrooms.
(14:07):
We're talking mushrooms that have.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
No no, no, no.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
We're also not talking about cup mushrooms that you buy
cut or halved at the supermarket. Yeah, anyway, we won't
go on and on about that. But that's like one
hundred and ten dollars a bottle for me, and I
go through a bottle every month, and that's a privilege
for me to be able to rely on that instead
of on my stimulants, because that helps me get through.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
But like, I'm also a.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
Bit of a health nut, and I make sure I
have all my amigas, and I make sure that I
you know, a lot of natural paths are going to be.
Like you don't need to take a multi vitamin, Victoria,
But like there are a whole heap of things that
I do tape that I do feel lift brain fog
and make money more clear and put me in a
better mental state. And that costs money. Right, Absolutely, we're
(14:51):
not talking about that today. What we're talking about is
the literal medications and the actual healthcare system, not Victoria's
hippie dippy mushroom vibes. I'm riding that way with babe,
But I guess that we should really get back on topic.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
That was our experience.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
But what did the Zurich White paper find that Australians
on the whole experience when it comes to the cost
of mental health conditions.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (15:12):
So, the estimated total health system expenditure on mental health
was twelve point eight billion dollars, comprising of nine hundred
and seventy four million in health care costs and beck
eleven point eight billion dollars in productivity loss.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Wow, isn't that wild? Like to just break that down.
Speaker 4 (15:35):
Obviously that's a lot of billions of dollars, but it
was nine hundred and seventy four million in health care
costs and eleven billion in productivity costs Beeck, ten percent
was the actual health care cost. Ninety percent is sitting
in productivity loss when it comes to mental health.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
Oh my gosh, you don't even think about that.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Isn't that wild?
Speaker 4 (15:59):
Like I say, bills and I think that everybody just
kind of like it flies over your head and you go, oh,
so much money. You're right, let's talk about this, but
like ninety percent of that cost, you're around, ninety percent
of that cost is loss of productivity due to mental health.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Yeah, what that's wild, isn't it wild?
Speaker 4 (16:15):
Mental health conditions have large economic and social costs. We
already know that the conditions are often lengthy, leading to
career disruption, instability, loss of skills, and social isolation, which
is why economic costs are not limited to lost work,
but also to long term lost opportunities. Yeah, okay, which
we need to talk about as well. And I'm just
(16:36):
so glad that it's being taken into consideration now because
I think if we had gone back, let's say, ten years,
and we talked about mental health, and someone was trying
to calculate my cost of mental health, but be like, well,
how much do you spend on medication each month? Yes,
how much was your doctor's appointment? Full stop, end of story,
that's the cost of my mental health. And that's not
(16:57):
the case. And I feel like I am I feel
like I've said I'm privileged already this episode, but I
just I feel so genuinely lucky that the circumstances I
am in are favorable. Like I don't know how to
say this without sounding like an absolute whine carpick. My
(17:17):
career has been successful. I've been so lucky that things
have lined up for me and that I have worked
my butt off and done all these other things.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
But there are so many people in this.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
World who have worked their absolute butts off and are
at a loss when it comes to their career or
what has happened. And I mean, I'm not saying that
I have lost any of those things. And I think personally,
if you were to quantify my loss, I actually think
that my mental health has really played into my success.
Like I was talking about my ADHD the other day
(17:46):
with a friend and they're like, oh, how do you
really think that your ADHD has impacted She's on the
money and you know Zella and creating Zella money and
all that, And I just said, I don't think I
would have She's on the money and Zella money without
my AID. Right, they are a product of me being
obsessed with something, which is one of the things that
happens when you have ADHD. I get so fixated on
(18:09):
one particular topic that that's why we've deep dived into it,
That's why I created it. I don't think I would
have been able to commit to something like She's on
the Money without my mental health issues. So I'm very lucky.
But that's not the reality of everybody else. Because we
go back to that number of eleven point eight billion
dollars in loss productivity.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
So my experience is not the norm. No, my experience
is so far from the Norman. It's not funny. We know.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
Social costs include increased rates of divorce, domestic violence, and
substance of use. Treatment costs include most medications under heavily
government subsidized, with public subsidies available through general practice mental
health care plans, medical consultation rebates, and the Pharmaceutical Benefit
Scheme the PBS, which we talked about in our last episode.
(18:57):
Public hospital admissions are reserved for the most mental health
conditions and are provided free of charge, and then moderate
medical health conditions including substance misuser treated largely by the
private hospital system, and inpatient treatments are often lengthy and
moderately expensive, with private health providers offering some subsidies for
(19:18):
inpatient care. But there's always, always, always a lot of
out of pocket when it comes to treatment like.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
That, right, Unfortunately, it's crazy? Is as crazy?
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Do they find any other direct links to physical conditions?
Speaker 4 (19:30):
So apparently many people with back problems, especially chronic back pain,
have poor mental health and are more likely to report
conditions like depression, anxiety, and psychological distress and when it
comes to getting treatment for other conditions. Adults with depression, anxiety,
and other mental health conditions are seven times more likely
to skip health care than people without a mental health condition.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
My gosh, that oh so frustrating, frustrating, and this conversation
in particular really just slap me in the face because
my best friend has a chronic back issue and she
her mental health is so poor and she thinks it's
because of other reasons. But say, I'm going to send it.
I'm going to send it this episode and tell her
to have a good listen.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
It breaks my heart as well, because I think so
many people think that their mental health is so in
their control.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Like it frustrates me.
Speaker 4 (20:19):
And I ended a friendship recently, actually back and I
ended it because this person couldn't see my side of
the tracks, right, Like we were talking about mental there
were so many other things, right, but just be happy
with something, she said, or why don't you just focus
on doing more pilates, or why don't you like she
just could not conceptualize that the issue that I was having,
(20:44):
you know, and have had for a number of years,
Like she just thought it was like a choice, like
people choose, right, to be unhappy. And I think when
you have a chronic health condition, you assume that your
mental health is it's just in your control. But once
you're able to get back out there, you'll be happy again.
And it's really not the case. Like your mental health is.
It can be in your control, right, Like I'm taking
(21:06):
control of my mental health by going and getting mental
health care practitioners involved and talking to my GP and
being on the right medication and doing all these things.
But it's not just a choice you make. You don't
get out of bed in the morning, Regin know what,
I'm just gonna choose to be happy today.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Yeah, I'm just going to choose to have a good day.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
I feel like I want to have anxiety today.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
Yeah, do you know what, I'm just not gonna have
anxiety today. I'm just going to go do this thing.
And Like it's funny because I think when I start
to share my mental health journey and what that means,
I think people look at me and go absolutely not, Victoria,
You're so confident. That doesn't mean it doesn't manifest in
other areas of my life. Can I get up on
stage and talk to a room of five thousand people absolutely,
(21:44):
I can easily can. I sometimes not get myself out
of bed, though, and spend days in my bed not
being able to get out. I refuse to answer the phone,
I refuse to check my emails. I refuse to do
a whole heap of things. I don't even get in
the shower if I've forgotten a medication. Yeah, absolutely, But
people don't see that side of things, and I think
they only see, you know, like, let's go back to
(22:05):
this social media thing. They only see the social media highlights.
They only see what you know, I'm putting out on online.
I'm not going to get my phone and take a
photo of me in bed after three day, like it's
just not going to happen because I'm not in that
mental space, Like it's just not going to happen.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Yeah, So I think it's.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
It's wild, especially if you've got chronic health condition like
your friend.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Of course, you're a bit down.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
You're not being supported in the way that you need
to be mentally supported and stimulated.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
There's another thing that people don't think about when it
comes to mental health, and that's the kind of depressures
on cares and caregiving. So we know that informal caregiving
often falls to family members. But what are the costs
of families and carers?
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (22:46):
So, cares for people with mental health conditions spend an
average of thirty six hours per week providing care. It's
two hours short my love of a full time job.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Wow wow wow.
Speaker 4 (22:58):
Twenty four percent receive care as payments, thirty four percent
don't receive any assistance in their caring role, and thirty
five percent don't know the services that are available to
support keres, which is the number that I really want
to focus on here. So I just they don't know
what they don't know because we don't talk about it.
And then if we don't talk about it, you don't
(23:19):
know what you can access exactly. Have these conversations and
the more we normalize this, the more we can advocate
for others as well. And I think that, you know,
especially when it comes to mental health, there's such a
stigma around it still where if somebody is experiencing depression
and anxiety, they might not want to talk about it,
(23:40):
and then that might extend to their care. And like
a care could be your husband, it could be your sibling,
it could be a parent, it could be literally anybody.
It could be your housemate that kind of picks up
the slack when you won't get out of bed, and
they then don't talk about it because they know that
you're a bit like closed off and don't really want
to talk about the issues. And then that extends to
them not being able to get the support that they need,
(24:01):
and then maybe they're experiencing their own mental health conditions
because they feel like they aren't open and honest about
the realities of their circumstance. So I think it's just
it goes on and on, and it's a cycle that
we really need to break, and we really need to
talk about more honestly and more openly and with a
lot more kindness than we currently approach to totally.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
Let's end the taboo, but I think this is a
really heavy topic. Let's go have a little break and
come back in five point two seconds.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
All right, V we are back.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
How do you feel I feel like that was longer
than five point two seconds. That was a little bit
longer than five point I feel like it's five point seven. Yeah, okay,
so maybe next time we'll shorten it, you know what.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
I'm going to stay on the counting side. Of the table.
Speaker 4 (24:47):
You say, on the content side of the table, I'll
do the maths. You're not involved in that deal because
at this point, I'm not even sure if you can
tell the time.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
I don't know what time. So so let's have a
little bit more of a closer look as some of
the costs and stats and breakdown specific disorders.
Speaker 4 (25:06):
Okay, all right, so let's talk about effective disorders. So
effective disorders are things like depression, bipolar, and schizophrenia. The
cost of depression is seventeen one hundred and ninety dollars
on average per individual. Average number of days off from
work each year if you have an effective disorder adds
(25:26):
up to seventy five point four days per year. Back,
do you know how many sick days most people get
in their work contracts? Barely anything ten Usually you get
ten sick days. That is seven times more than the
average that we are allocated. Fewer than two in five
people with anxiety and depression seek treatment, and recovery rate
(25:49):
is actually up to fifty percent in the first six months,
but the relapse rate is between thirty and fifty percent
for those who initially recover, which ends up putting a
lot of people in a cycle of feeling like it's
never going to get better. And as much as those
numbers feel low, they're actually, from my perspective, relatively high.
(26:11):
Indirect spending for effective disorders includes non health services and
social costs, so family breakdowns, going through a diporse, legal costs,
stuff like that. If an individual were paying four hundred
and fifty dollars per session for psychiatric treatment weekly, which
is a very normal amount of money, unfortunately to be
(26:31):
spending on seeing a psychiatrist, which my background is in psychology.
I have two psychology degrees, so I do know what
I'm talking about. When it comes to this, A psychologist
is not able to prescribe medication. A psychiatrist is. A
psychologist can talk you through things and you know, help
you get through a lot of situations. I see a
(26:51):
psychologist regularly, but when it comes to managing my ADHD,
and when it comes to managing my depression, which is
always going to be with me, I see a side
psychiatrist because I am on medications that have been prescribed
by my psychiatrist. So you can't go to a psychologist
and they go, oh, I'm going to diagnose you with depression.
Here's medication for that. They don't do that. So if
(27:13):
you have an effective disorder and you are on a
medication for that, or you are clinically diagnosed, you actually
have to see a psychiatrist. So this isn't like a choice, right,
But it can be about four hundred and fifty dollars
a session. We're using that number because it seems to
be an average and it's actually what I pay to
see my psychiatrist. They would be two hundred and ninety
(27:36):
six dollars per session out of pocket because you get
one hundred and fifty four dollars on a Medicare rebate
for that session. After the seventh week of treatment, the
individual would have already reached the Medicare safety net threshold,
which is two thousand and ninety three dollars and thirty
cents out of pocket in seven weeks.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
That is so awful.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
The can you imagine, like the costs just add up,
like how do you survive?
Speaker 2 (28:04):
How do you feed you? How do you afford that?
How do you afford to live? And then but also
like that's rent money, that's rent money.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
But imagine like you had a full time job, so
you could technically be affording all of these things if.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
You hadn't really want I don't think people like people
might be paying for it. But there's a difference between
being able to pay for something and being able to
afford it. So you're saying you're affording it, you're able
to service every other goal in your life, and that
is not impacting those things. No, But from my perspective,
even if you have an emergency fund and then you
have to see a psychiatrist on a weekly basis and
you're spending four hundred and fifty dollars a week, you're
(28:37):
technically able to pay for it, but you're not able
to afford it because your bigger goals aren't being met.
You might not be saving, you might not be investing
for your future. You might not you know, you might
be foregoing social activities or other things that are helpful
for your mental health. And I think we've all been there, right, Like,
I shouldn't see it this way, but I always see
it as like a may cost and you shouldn't do
(28:57):
this right Like I always go, oh, my gosh, well
I had a psych appointment or psychiatrist appointment this week.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
No, I won't buy a pilates pass this week.
Speaker 4 (29:05):
I think I might wait a bit because that was
an expensive week, when in reality the vallarates pass and
me getting physical activity is probably equally as important. But
I see it as a different like I see it
as a choice, and it shouldn't be like that was
a cost I had to incur. So I think it's
really interesting and that's why often you end up with
mixed care so often when you have a mental health condition.
(29:30):
And I mean disclaimer again, this is just anecdotal personal experience.
I'm not a doctor, and I'm not recommending that this
is the right mode of care. But my GP knows
how expensive my psychiatrist is, so he keeps in contact
with my psychiatrist, and my psychiatrist sees me wow, maybe
once every six months to approve my medications. And then
I go every three months to my GP to get
(29:52):
prescribed to my medications. But then I don't have to
go to the expensive psychiatrist appointment so often. But then
on top of that, I have a psycho cologist as well.
That's in that mix that I guess do the more
therapy side of things with, like we don't really talk
about medication, Like my psychiatrist's quite quite transactional. You could say,
it's kind of like a GP appointment. We do talk
(30:14):
about my mental health, but I'm not talking about how
I'm feeling or what I'm doing, because she checks in
with my psychologist to make sure I'm on track with that.
So you often end up with not just one psychiatrist appointment.
You've got GP, you've got psychologists, you've got psychiatrists, and
they all mix together, and then that becomes even more
expensive and you cap out your medicare rebate real quick.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
I'm telling you that right now, Isn't it wild? That's
really wild.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
And let's say in a hypothetical world you made trillions
of dollars per hour and you could afford all of
those things. But that's only if you get to go
to work every single day and you don't use up
you're sickly, you know that, Like when you're hungover or
just feeling tired and you can't go into work. Imagine
that time's a trillion, but you have to go to
(30:58):
work every single day. You have ten days of sick
leave per year, but you feel like that all the time.
That's your reality, and you've got to pay for all
these things, How are you meant to work and just
survive and go into work every day and like be
your best self if you're feeling so like you just can't,
you just can't.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
It's kind of like people who experience chronic pain conditions,
they just exactly so used to managing it that that
becomes the new normal and the new expectation. And it's
not right. It's not right, and when something else goes wrong,
they compare it, and so like, I've got a few
friends and even family members with chronic health conditions. And
(31:37):
it's interesting because if something else goes wrong, and I'm
going to use an example that I'm making up, but
like chronic health condition, let's call it really really awful
back pain. It's consistent, it's crippling. But then they break
their ankle. It's not that bad, but it like literally
changes the way that they're living their life. But in comparison,
they're kind of like, oh, it's not that bad in comparison, like,
(31:57):
I got it all, passed it up. She'll be right,
what anybody else breaking their ankle would be like, this
is you know, life ending.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
I can't believe this.
Speaker 4 (32:05):
I'm in a cast for the next six to eight weeks,
like you know, there's so much I need to do
and then I need to do rehab. They just don't
see it as that big of a deal. And that's
not okay, Like it's not okay to be in that
position because you should be mentally well and you should
be you know, able to be fit and healthy and
happy in all of those things, and are just yeah,
it really frustrates me. Like sometimes I want to shake
(32:25):
these people and be like it's actually okay that that's
a bad thing. Like we can say it's a bad
thing and like don't compare it or compartmentalize it in
the way that you are totally Moving on to another disorder,
let's talk about anxiety disorders, so that's things like panic, angoraphobia,
social phobia, generalized anxiety, obsessive compulsive disorder, and post traumatic
(32:45):
stress disorder. Average individual cost is between one hundred and
eighty six dollars and two hundred and sixty four dollars
if combined with another disorder. The average number of days
off per year are fifty three point six days per year,
so a bit less than depression. But also we need
to recognize comorbidity exists so often if you have anxiety,
(33:10):
the likelihood of you having depression is increased.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
As I mentioned before, I have both, like poor Ken
or lost Doss.
Speaker 4 (33:17):
There is for anxiety disorders a fifty to sixty percent
recovery rate and a fifty to sixty six percent relapse
rate of those who initially recover, which again makes you
feel like you're stuck in a cy call. And that's
not call at all.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
No, that would be very, very very tricky to live with.
I'm sorry, pee, No, don't be sorry. I'm okay.
Speaker 4 (33:39):
I'm literally okay, And I just see it as part
of me and I'm okay. We're just talking about the costs,
and I think that it's really important. And I don't
want people to listen to this and think the Victoria
is trying to make this all about her.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
No, I don't think that's the case at all. I
just believe that the.
Speaker 4 (33:54):
Best way of, you know, breaking down stigma is actually
to open the doors and open the conversation up around
yourself and as somebody who I'm just grateful to be
in this position where you do get to talk to
you guys about these things. I can't just stand here
and be like, it's important to talk about mental health
back because you'd be like, cool, Victoria. Everybody else is
(34:14):
saying that. But if I go, it's important to talk
about mental health and I actually experience these things. Here's
my experience. This is what this looks like. You go, wow,
I didn't realize. You know that not only will there
be psychiatric cost, but a psychologist and your GP involved,
and they'd be like this mix in this triangle of
people that have to talk to one another to manage
your condition. Like, I just think it's so much more
(34:36):
practical to have practical and pragmatic conversation where it's just like, well, Beck,
it is what it is. Moving on to substance use disorders.
So average individual cost is between one hundred and eighty
six and two hundred and fifty eight dollars per year
if combined with another disorder, and the average number of
days off per week are forty point two days per year.
(34:59):
Recovery rate is up to eighty percent, which is Chef's kiss.
Could be higher, but that's you know, they're the numbers
we want to start saying. Unfortunately, relapse rate is between
forty and sixty percent, and people with Substance use disorders
are often frequent users of psychiatric services. Although many services
are publicly funded, there are still and there may still
(35:20):
be payment gaps for individuals seeking counseling or medication or
rehabilitation centers and self help programs or support networks. The
other thing I want to say about substance use disorders
is I guess the underlying cost of the substance that
you have a dependency on, because obviously, when it comes
to depression, like I'm not going out and getting a
(35:42):
substance that is costing me a lot of money that
results in depression, I am. You know, if you have
a substance use disorder, it's usually really expensive, especially here
in Australia, Like it's not accessible obviously for good reasons
because usually they're illegal. But it's one of those things
where that average individual cost is not including how much
(36:03):
you're spending on those substances, and that can be financially
crippling for many, many people. And obviously there's a lot
of conversation around that because substance use disorders are the
disorder that leads to the highest levels of homelessness in Australia,
and obviously there's a lot of comorbidity there as well
(36:24):
when it comes to having another disorder. Moving on to
the topic and the I guess subheading of suicide beck
suicide is the leading cause of death for Australians between
the ages of fifteen and forty four, and is the
second leading cause of death for Australians aged forty five
to fifty four years old.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
That is pretty opening. I had.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
It is no idea that it was so high.
Speaker 4 (36:51):
It's insane because suicide, I think, doesn't get the conversation
happening around it that it deserves.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
And I mean, there are so many.
Speaker 4 (36:58):
Beautiful charities and forums that discuss this, but we just
don't discuss it as a community as a whole. It's
kind of like, oh, yeah, let's talk about Beyond Blue
and the work that they're doing. But I feel like
it's always really niched down to a particular campaign. It's
not an ongoing conversation, and suicide is an outcome of
(37:21):
mental health conditions and all the conversations that we've just
had and all of the disorders that we've been talking
about today, they lead to or can lead to suicide,
and somebody going through that process and I just think
that we need to care about these things more because
people just deserve more from our community.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
We we really, really do.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
I completely agree with that. Now, just moving on slightly,
Can we now talk about mental health care plans? How
the hell do they work?
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Absolutely?
Speaker 4 (37:53):
We can, and I am the biggest advocate of a
mental health care plan. We talked when Rhann and Tracy
was on on our episode a lot about insurance and
the importance of insurance. And I think that the first
thing I want you to do as a human being.
I'm not saying before a mental health care plan, but
I am saying you need to consider your personal insurance
(38:14):
needs sooner rather than later. And the reason I say
that is because insurers in Australia take into consideration exclusions, right.
So an exclusion is where they don't include something in
your insurance cover. So, Beck, you might have broken your
ankle a couple of times playing netball, and then you
go and do your survey to get new insurance and
(38:35):
they go, Beck, if you got any health conditions and
you say, nah, got nothing.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
If you had anything.
Speaker 4 (38:39):
Happen to you historically, and you go, yep, broke my
ankle playing netball.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
And then they come back and say, no worries.
Speaker 4 (38:44):
Beck, we would love to ensure you, but here are
our conditions.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
What we're going to do.
Speaker 4 (38:50):
We're going to insure your whole body and your whole mind,
but we're not going to ensure that one ankle, and.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
We're not going to want to do to do with
the air.
Speaker 4 (38:57):
Don't want anything to do with the ankle because you've
already broken once. So because it's already been broken once,
it's a bit compromised. It means that you're more likely
to break it again. So we just don't want that.
And you go, all right, Well, when it comes to insurance,
that makes sense, right, Like it's kind of like car insurance.
If you're a bad driver and you keep crashing, they're
gonna say, probably going to charge you a little bit more, Beck,
(39:18):
Your premiums are going to go up because you keep crashing.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Yeah, you're a bit of a Risk's a bit.
Speaker 4 (39:23):
Of a risk, right, And that's exactly how personal insurances work.
And there are lots of different risks involved in personal insurance.
But the younger you are when you apply for personal insurance,
the less likely you have experienced a significant life and
health event, which means the less likely you are to
have exclusions in your cover, so hypothetically, in the future,
(39:45):
you can claim on more stuff. I want insurance to
be the biggest waste of money you've ever spent money on, beck, Like,
I want you to be paying for insurance every single month,
and I want you to look at that cost and
be like, didn't claim on that.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
That's not great. Like, I want it to be a
waste of money. I see what you mean. I want
you to be wasting your money on insurance. Wow.
Speaker 4 (40:04):
But hypothetically, if something did happen to you yesterday and
you needed to I want that cover to be there.
Speaker 3 (40:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (40:10):
And I think that framing it that way, people go, oh, okay,
because how many times have you looked at your insurance
You go, that's a lot of money. But also, I'm
getting nothing out of this good Yes, true, I don't
want you to get anything out of your insurance because
if you're not claiming on your personal insurances, you know
what that means. You're probably happy and healthy and haven't
(40:31):
broken anything and haven't been hit by a bus and
haven't had these awful things happen to you.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Yeah, that's a life win. True. Stop seeing it as
a money loss. That is so true.
Speaker 4 (40:42):
The segue to this is I really want you to
think about insurance now and today and care about it,
because the sooner you get it implemented, the less likely
you are to have a pre existing health condition taken
into consideration. And I say this before a mental health
care plan because over the last I would say seven
(41:03):
years since the Royal Commission, and everything about financial advice
and insurances, really.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
I guess got shook up.
Speaker 4 (41:10):
You could say, mental health care plans are seen by
insurers and they do take them into consideration.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
We're offering you cover.
Speaker 4 (41:19):
And it's a really shitty thing that I have to
say that I really want you to be insured before
you go down this pathway because it breaks my heart,
or it used to break my heart every single time
I had to sit down with a client and say,
I know that you did the right thing for you,
and you went and got a mental health care plan,
and now you are healthy and you are happy, and
(41:40):
you're not even seeing anyone and you're not even on
any medications. But when we did your medical history, the
insurer came back and said that you were on a
mental health care plan. So we're Young covering you for
mental health in your insurance. Oh my, isn't that good?
Isn't that just like the most messed up thing ever?
And it pisces me off? And I understand the risk
(42:01):
behind it. I can see it from both sides. I
can understand that as an insurer, mental health is becoming
and I won't say mental health issues are becoming more prevalent,
because I think that they've been there all the time,
but we are now getting the help that we deserve
for them. And that is costing insurer's money because you're
claiming on your income protection to take time off work
(42:22):
to put you first, and you should be able to
do that. But when it comes to an insurer, their
job is to kind of manage risk. And there's people
called underwriters and their job is to have a look
at the risk. And now, I guess weigh up the
pros and cons of offering Beck cover and if you
have had mental health conditions historically and seen a GP
and then maybe seen a psychiatrist for it, they're going
(42:44):
to look at that and go, Okay, cool, you know what, Beck,
We're not going to offer it to you. Maybe we
can reconsider this in two years but if it's something
like I have sat down with clients who have attempted suicide,
and then because they've attempted suicide, it's just an instant
decline on mental health cover.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Do you know what?
Speaker 4 (43:03):
There's nothing else to say about it except it's really shitty.
And I hate the fact that, as an ex financial advisor,
when you ask me about a mental health care plan,
and I promise I'm about to explain exactly.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
How they work.
Speaker 4 (43:14):
But I hate that I have to go on a
tangent because I feel like it's the most responsible thing
for me to do to say, mental health care plans
are really important. Please talk to your GP. Please get
the health care that you absolutely deserve and need, but
please make sure that you have the insurances you need first,
because if you go down that route, there is a
very big probability that by disclosing that you have had
(43:35):
a mental health care plan, you might get an exclusion.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
That is very solid advice. It's unfortunately awful.
Speaker 4 (43:40):
It's unfortunate because you shouldn't be thinking about your mental
health right now and going, oh, well, I'm feeling pretty terrible.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
I should go to the doctor. But Victoria said, let's
get our insurances sorted. Let's not do that.
Speaker 4 (43:51):
Let's be mentally healthy today and go and get our
insurances sorted, so if we experience anything in the future,
we don't have pre existing conditions on our insurance application.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Sure.
Speaker 4 (44:01):
Back to your question, though, Beck, you asked a very
good question. Actually, not back to that. You guys are
going to slide into my DMS and say I need insurance,
and I'm going to reply, Please go talk to my
friend Phil at Sky Wealth. He's not paying me to
say this. I just don't want to reply to six
hundred different dms of people going Victoria. You talked about
the importance of getting insurance sorted. Phil is a financial
(44:24):
advice friend that I have had for many, many years now.
He used to run a full service financial advice business
and decided that he was really passionate about insurance and
now does insurance only advice. And for I think it's
between three and four hundred dollars are his fees. So
he's not going to charge you what a holistic financial
advisor would charge to implement your insurances, which would be
(44:46):
around three and a half to five thousand dollars. Wow,
he is a lot cheaper because all he does is insurance.
So if you want to go to him and start investing,
he's not going to do that. He's just going to say, cool,
don't do that. All he does is insurance, and his
team are structured and make that as accessible as possible.
And if you know somebody else that runs a business
like Phil's where his financial advice is actually relatively accessible
(45:10):
in terms of cost, please let me know, because I
do not know anybody else running a business as accessible
as Phil at this point with the quality of advice
associated with it. So that's yeah, that's my plug. I
know that that sounds really salesy, and it kind of was. No,
it was meant to because I want you to get insurance.
Oh okay, Like it was meant to because I wanted
(45:30):
you to get insurance. But also I just wanted to
be really transparent about who feels he's like, he's a
nice Guy's fair Anyway, you asked a question, and the
question was Victoria, can we now talk about mental health
care plan?
Speaker 2 (45:42):
Please? Like, yeah, no worries.
Speaker 4 (45:44):
So if you would like a mental health care plan,
your GP can write you want. It's very simple. You
don't even need to I think you do. Actually need
to went booking. Let your like GP know that it's
going to be a bit of a longer appointment. You
can't just book the fifteen minute one because you do
actually need to do a bit of a survey, So
just heads up on that. From the first of January
twenty twenty three, with a mental health care plan, you're
(46:06):
able to access a total of ten Medicare rebates for
your appointments with your clinician in this calendar year. So
calendar not financial sets in December yep, at the end
of December. If you have sessions remaining on an existing
mental health care plan and current referrals for your sessions
(46:28):
from twenty twenty two, whether for the initial ten or
an additional ten, you'll be able to use the referral
to access up to ten sessions in twenty twenty three
without having to go back to your GP, which is good.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
That is very good.
Speaker 4 (46:43):
Typically, following six Medicare rebated appointments, your clinician is going
to write a progress report relating to your treatment goals
and you're going to or you will be eligible to
get a re referral from your doctor for an extra
for Medicare rebated appointments, which does of another trip to
the GP following the four extra Medicare rebated sessions. Your
(47:05):
clinician will write a further treatment update to your doctor
and it will go from there.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
So how much does this cost this?
Speaker 4 (47:12):
She's on the money back, I'm dying to know. If
you qualify for the Mental Health Care Plan, you'll be
eligible to receive a Medicare rebate of one hundred and
thirty one dollars and sixty five cents for an appointment
with a clinical psychologist or eighty nine dollars and sixty
five cent Medicare rebate for an appointment with a psychologist.
(47:33):
Note the difference between clinical psychologist and psychologist there.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
Oh yeah you're psychiatrist.
Speaker 4 (47:40):
Yeah, it's important that there's a differentiation there. If you
are booking an appointment and you just google Medicare rebate
with psychologist and it comes up as one hundred and
thirty one and then, yeah, you just don't want to
get those two mixed up in case you're not getting
the rebate that you're expecting. If you're like budgeting, okay,
this Medicare rebate amount will increase once you reach your
(48:00):
individual slash family extended Medicare Safety Net threshold of two thousand,
two hundred and forty nine dollars eighty which is the
general threshold where you will then receive back eighty percent
of the out of pocket expenses for your ongoing sessions
with a psychologist.
Speaker 3 (48:16):
Okay, on paper, I think that's good.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
On paper, it is good. I mean still an expense.
It's still an expense.
Speaker 4 (48:23):
I've said this before on the podcast. I'm very grateful
to live in Australia with the healthcare system that we
have because we are so incredibly supported. Is it the
best healthcare system in the entire world? No, there's better
out there, Like, yeah, feelin's amazing.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
I may no Way Norway. Oh so the government pays
for us.
Speaker 4 (48:44):
So it's not it's not as though, you know, their
psychologists are cheaper or anything like that. It's just their
governments have put more of a priority on having no
gap healthcare and so they cover that it would be included.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
In their taxes.
Speaker 4 (48:58):
I see, at the end of the day, they are
paying taxes and that's what their taxes are going towards.
And I mean when it comes to like our Medicare
rebates and stuff, that's what our taxes go towards. Yeah,
so the money has to come from somewhere.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (49:09):
So I guess talking about this stuff is really important
to me because I care a lot about our community,
I care a lot about mental health, and I care
a lot about making sure that you are well protected.
And that's why I went on that insurance rant. I'll
pop a whole heap of details in the show notes.
If that's something that you're like, oh, Vian, I hadn't
really considered it. I really think it's important. But I
(49:30):
also think it's important to continue this conversation beyond just
us doing an episode on a zeric white paper, like
I think the white paper they're so sexy, like so sexy.
Speaker 2 (49:41):
I've read it so many times.
Speaker 4 (49:42):
I can't tell you how many times I've forwarded it
because it's in a PDF. I've shared it with heaps
of my friends. I've sent it to advisors who are like, Victoria,
I've ready seen this, and I'm like, yeah, but read
it again. It's really really helpful. But I think that
from this what we should be doing is really opening
the conversation up about the cost of mental health. And
(50:02):
we don't have time today, but we will continue this
conversation in our Facebook group and we have honest, non
judgmental conversations about what is costing you and what it's
costing our community. And you know, what are your hacks
and tips and tricks and all of that. I want
to know absolutely.
Speaker 3 (50:18):
And also if this conversation has negatively impacted you, please
reach out to your would you say GP for any advice.
Speaker 4 (50:26):
You reach out to your GP will pop some resources
in the show, not as we always.
Speaker 3 (50:31):
Do, exactly, but yeah, I think this has been really good,
heavy but good conversation that needs to happen. So I
feel like let's go and absorb this, so usually.
Speaker 2 (50:41):
Do exactly I guess leaving it here.
Speaker 4 (50:43):
Your mental health does not define you as a human
beings exactly right, full stop, end of story.
Speaker 2 (50:48):
We love you and we hope that you have the
best day ever and we will see you for Friday
drinks on Friday.
Speaker 3 (50:54):
Bye guys.
Speaker 4 (51:01):
The advice shared on She's on the Money is general
in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She's
on the Money exists purely for educational purposes and should
not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision.
If you do choose to buy a financial product, read
the PDS, TMD and obtain appropriate financial advice tailored towards
(51:21):
your needs. Victoria Divine and She's on the Money are
authorized representatives of Money. Sheper Pty Ltd ABN three two
one six four nine two seven seven zero eight AFSL
four five one two eight nine
Hello, my name's Santasha Nabananga Bamblet. I'm a proud yr
the Order Kerney Whoalbury and a waddery woman. And before
we get started on She's on the Money podcast, I
would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land
of which this podcast is recorded on a wondery country,
acknowledging the elders, the ancestors and the next generation coming
(00:22):
through as this podcast is about connecting, empowering, knowledge sharing
and the storytelling of you to make a difference for
today and lasting impact for tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Let's get into it. She's on the Money, She's on
the Money.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Hello, and welcome to She's on the Money, the podcast
for millennials who want financial freedom. Two weeks ago we
did an episode on the cost of care with Rhiann
and Tracy, who was so good.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
That was such a great episode us.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
We covered a whole range of diseases and injuries and
looked at the real and very hidden costs of living
with these conditions. It was such a huge episode and
so eye opening, so I recommend taking a listen if
you haven't already. But we just wanted to do a
few more episodes focusing on particular conditions because there is
so much to learn and discuss. Today. We're looking at
(01:32):
mental health, the stats, the hidden and real costs, and
so much more. My name is Beck and with me
is Victoria Devine.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Hello, my love, how are you?
Speaker 4 (01:43):
You know?
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I'm pretty nice and chills. Oh, you're pretty nice today.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
I feel like, you know, when you're like a slightly sleepy,
but not enough to be like tired, tired, You're just
kind of in a chill.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
No, the second I get slightly slightly I'm like, does
this man, I get to go to bed? Any excuse
to go to bed? Mental health goback? Okay, because I
am wildly passionate about this topic, but also just about
talking about insurance and talking about protecting ourselves and putting
ourselves in the best possible position. And you already know
because I have drummed this into you that as Australians
(02:15):
we are some of the most underinsured people in the
entire world. But also I really hope that by talking
about the realities of the costs behind these illnesses and conditions,
we can actually really help open up conversation about the
realities of living with these conditions and the stigma that
currently and still unfortunately surrounds them, and mental health is
(02:36):
something that is so close to my own heart.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
So before we get.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
Even further into this, I do think that this episode
deserves a content warning. So if the discussion around mental
health and the topic of suicide is not going to
be a conversation you want to have today, that is
totally fine, my loves. I have put some resources in
our show notes to make sure that you can reach
out for the support that you need and deserve. But
also don't feel bad to just skip this episode skip ahead.
(03:03):
Turns out, beg, We've got a lot of other episodes
you can listen to that won't talk about those topics.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
You won't be missing out.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
No, you won't be missing I mean hopefully you will
be missing out because it's a really good topic. I
think that, yeah, there's a time and a place for
conversations like that, and if you're not in the headspace
for it, don't do it because it's not worth it.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Totally fine, that's very well said. Be So that actually
is ought to get to today. But what is a
snapshot of the prevalence of mental health conditions in Australia.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
So I've gone on and on about this. The cost
of care white paper by Zurich is one of my
favorite white papers ever produced because we really didn't have
enough insight into the cost of these conditions before that
we could google it and like there was I guess,
you know, eclectic resources on this, but there wasn't like
one paper that had really focused on it. And I mean,
(03:49):
this paper was done a few years ago, and I'm
absolutely certain that they are probably going to re release
one at some point. I would love to see one
on the cost of mental health during COVID. I feel
like that would be a really interesting read. And as
an ex financial advisor, I obviously had a lot of
exposure to this side of it, and I don't think
the general public goes you know.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
What I'm going to do.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
I'm going to go to an insurer's website. I'm going
to read their white papers on the cost of care.
But a promise it's really exciting, riveting stuff, and this
white paper, I guess to go more into it. It
talked about the cost of care of mental health.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
So forty five point five percent of the total population
beck experience a mental health condition at some point in
their life.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Half of us. Well, it slower than I thought.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
I kind of think it's lower, and I know that
it should be like it's a big number and it
should be like, oh my gosh, that's a lite.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
Yeah, I just feel like it's I don't know. I'm
not going to disagree with Zurich because they're actual, genuine researchers.
I'm just a plub x financial advisor who was given
a podcast like I don't even know how that happened.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Still, but I just feel like I just keep it health.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
Yeah. No, I really don't get it, like it's like
imposter syndrome, but like it's not imposter syndrome. I'm genuinely
an imposta, Like I don't suggest.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
A postra no no syndrome.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
I guess when we talk about forty five point five
percent of the total population experiencing a mental health condition,
one hundred percent of us, from my perspective, have mental health.
Whether we have a conditional or not is going to
depend a lot on our medical history and the circumstances
we are exposed to, and the environment that we grow
up in and the environments that we experience and the
(05:30):
events that we go through and the trauma that we experience.
And there's so many things, right, but from my perspective,
every single one of us has mental health, and we
either have really good mental health and you're very, very lucky,
or you experience some you know, mental health issues along
the way. So I think that's important to differentiate at
the start, like you don't just not have mental health
(05:51):
like we all do. The prevalence means it actually shares
the stage beack with cancer and heart disease as a
group of high impact medical life disruptors, and mental health
conditions are present in all ages and in all socioeconomic groups,
which I don't think is going to come as a
surprise to any of us. Mental health conditions can include
(06:13):
effective disorders, so things like depression and bipolar and schizophrenia,
anxiety disorders including panic attacks and stress disorders, and substance
abuse disorders so alcohol and drug dependencies fall under this.
One in six women and one in eight men beck
will experience depression during their lifetime, and one in three
(06:35):
women and one in five men will experience anxiety. Mental
health conditions are most common in those aged between twenty
five and thirty four years old, affecting nearly one in
four and this then declines with age, and they affect
women more than men across all age groups and those
living in rural areas. And individuals spend and estimated thirteen
(06:59):
hundred and fifty dollars per year out of pocket for
mental health conditions, with medications accounting for one third of
these cost Wow, isn't that wild.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Have you had any experience with kind of like the
i'd say, prescribed mental health drug?
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yes, I have.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
I guess you're new here, so welcome to you know,
a little bit of a deep dive into Victoria's medical history.
So I have been diagnosed with clinical depression and anxiety.
I also have ADHD and have a mental health history
of eating disorders.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
So I was hospitalized.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
In my teenage years for a significant period of time
for anorexia. And that is something that you know on
previous episodes I've spoken about and I think it's just
so important to just address it. I don't think it
changes my value as a human being. I don't think
it changes anything about the way you should view me.
In fact, I think that those experiences have just made
(07:58):
my experience richer. Right, And when I talk about a
topic like this, I am speaking from experience, I have
been medicated since the age of fourteen for depression and anxiety.
I've tried a number of different medications, and I'm still
on a medication today, and I take what I guess
doctors would deem a relatively high dosage of depression and
(08:19):
anxiety medication. And I strongly believe I'm never coming off
that I have tried coming off that, because there have
been periods of my life where I go, I don't
want to be medicated, like and there's the stigma that
you apply to yourself when you're like, I don't need
this medication anymore.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
But I guess.
Speaker 4 (08:35):
Now the period of my life that I am in,
I have come to the realization that my medication for
my anxiety and my depression is actually a bit like
the medication a diabetic would have, right, and a diabetic
it doesn't have enough insulin to make their body function properly. Right,
so you would go, okay, diabetic, here's some insulin.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
And I mean that's a very.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
Basic way of explos They get that their life can
carry on as normal, and beck you would know, you
don't just get better and then all of a sudden
start producing insulin. As a diabetic, you just take that
for the rest of your life and monitor those levels
and make sure they're okay.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Right.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
I believe the same happens in my brain because my
depression and anxiety isn't trauma related. It's actually just I
think it could potentially be just in my genetics. It's
in my DNA, and I just don't have enough dopamine
and I don't have enough serotonin in my brain. And
I take those drugs to make sure that I can
function at the same level as you can. So from
(09:36):
my experience, yes, I have had a lot of experience
with drugs. I have drugs that have worked for me.
I've had drugs that haven't worked for me. I've had
to go through a drug withdrawal program because my depression
drugs were really messing with me. And I also take
stimulants for my ADHD, but I am not good at
taking those stimulants because I don't like how they make
me feel sure, so I avoid them, and that would
(09:59):
be really, really tough. If there's something that you, I
guess maybe need is need a strong word.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yeah, no, no, I definitely need to need to take them.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Yeah, And you don't like the way you feel when
you take them, and that's just that seems like a
really unfortunate kind of like catch twenty two.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
It's a massive catch twenty two. And I suppose I'm
so lucky in that for me medication. I mean, I
talk about the stigma, right, and I say, oh, I
went off them because I just didn't want them back.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
I just didn't want.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
To be on medication, Like at the end of the day,
it's just something I didn't want. But no one really
wants that, right, Like you don't want to be taking
insulin for the rest of your life, but you do
it because you want to be healthy, and that's just
the key to it.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Right.
Speaker 4 (10:40):
So I think for me my need, I don't have
a choice. If I don't take my anxiety and depression drugs,
I'm not a functional member of society. I just am
not I am not happy, I am not kind, I
am not any of those things. But then if I
don't take my stimulants, I'm just not as productive. And
I mean, I feel very luck key to live in
(11:01):
twenty twenty three and I have access to a plethora
of research. And I've said this before and it's not
you know, I don't want to name the supplements I
take because we've talked about it before. I'm not a doctor,
and this is me sharing my anecdotal experience, not me
sharing medical information. And I would hate for you to go,
oh my gosh. Well, Victorious said on a podcast that
(11:22):
this particular supplement helped her, Like, that's not from my perspective,
responsible of me to share that. Just because it works
for me doesn't mean it will work for you. But
I have done so much personal research into different supplements
and like mushrooms, like the non not magic mushrooms, like
different types of mushrooms and supplements and things that I
(11:43):
can take that kind of act in a way that
a stimulant does. And if you're in that circumstance and
you want to do that, research is really easy to find.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Like it's not hard.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
It's all over TikTok, it's all over Instagram, it's all
over Google. You just google it and you can stuck
going down that rabbit hole and working out what might
work for you. But sure, yeah, my stimulants I rely
on maybe like a couple of times a week when
I can really have to set my mind to something
or I'm feeling extra agitated or I'm feeling extra bouncy.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, just like that.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
But like even in this moment, I'm not on my
stimulants because I think there's so many things going on
and there's so much structure. Yeah, it's an interesting concept
when we can talk about I guess totally my experience
is in more depth at some point in the future. Absolutely,
those mine. What about your experiences?
Speaker 2 (12:28):
I'm very lucky.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
I don't actually have any not to say that, unicorn.
I'm like, yeah, like I don't have any medication that
I take regularly for anything.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Money win money, win big money.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
When I feel like there was a moment maybe for
a year or two there where I was like really
discovering myself and I had some pretty bad social anxiety,
but I didn't diagnose it. I didn't know what it was.
I didn't know why I felt really introverted and stuff.
So I spent a lot of money on like New
Tropics and all the weird like you know, not necessarily weird,
but just like, no, it's weird. I was just obsessed
(13:01):
with like how do I make my brain feel uninhibited again?
And so that was probably the most expensive thing but
as far as this really expensive, I was like, yeah,
I was gone down the mushroom train as well myself.
But that's the only thing really I don't I'm very,
very fortunate to say that I don't have to take
anything for anything for any reason. And it's very cheap,
(13:23):
I would think, and we will find out.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
Actually yeah, I mean that's the money when that you're
not on any medications and don't have any of those
associated costs. But it's a money loss if you were
experiencing mental health and you weren't taking the right medications,
because it ultimately impacts every other aspect of your life, right,
And I think it's interesting conundrum to be in as well.
Like even I mean complete tangent again me talking about
(13:47):
taking a whole heap of supplements. I again so privileged
to be able to afford these supplements, but like one
of my bottles that I purchase online. By the way,
when I'm talking about mushrooms, I feel like I'm crazy, no,
because it's like something that a lot of people might
not have heard of. We're not talking medicinal like magic mushrooms.
(14:07):
We're talking mushrooms that have.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
No no, no, no.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
We're also not talking about cup mushrooms that you buy
cut or halved at the supermarket. Yeah, anyway, we won't
go on and on about that. But that's like one
hundred and ten dollars a bottle for me, and I
go through a bottle every month, and that's a privilege
for me to be able to rely on that instead
of on my stimulants, because that helps me get through.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
But like, I'm also a.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
Bit of a health nut, and I make sure I
have all my amigas, and I make sure that I
you know, a lot of natural paths are going to be.
Like you don't need to take a multi vitamin, Victoria,
But like there are a whole heap of things that
I do tape that I do feel lift brain fog
and make money more clear and put me in a
better mental state. And that costs money. Right, Absolutely, we're
(14:51):
not talking about that today. What we're talking about is
the literal medications and the actual healthcare system, not Victoria's
hippie dippy mushroom vibes. I'm riding that way with babe,
But I guess that we should really get back on topic.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
That was our experience.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
But what did the Zurich White paper find that Australians
on the whole experience when it comes to the cost
of mental health conditions.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (15:12):
So, the estimated total health system expenditure on mental health
was twelve point eight billion dollars, comprising of nine hundred
and seventy four million in health care costs and beck
eleven point eight billion dollars in productivity loss.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Wow, isn't that wild? Like to just break that down.
Speaker 4 (15:35):
Obviously that's a lot of billions of dollars, but it
was nine hundred and seventy four million in health care
costs and eleven billion in productivity costs Beeck, ten percent
was the actual health care cost. Ninety percent is sitting
in productivity loss when it comes to mental health.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
Oh my gosh, you don't even think about that.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Isn't that wild?
Speaker 4 (15:59):
Like I say, bills and I think that everybody just
kind of like it flies over your head and you go, oh,
so much money. You're right, let's talk about this, but
like ninety percent of that cost, you're around, ninety percent
of that cost is loss of productivity due to mental health.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Yeah, what that's wild, isn't it wild?
Speaker 4 (16:15):
Mental health conditions have large economic and social costs. We
already know that the conditions are often lengthy, leading to
career disruption, instability, loss of skills, and social isolation, which
is why economic costs are not limited to lost work,
but also to long term lost opportunities. Yeah, okay, which
we need to talk about as well. And I'm just
(16:36):
so glad that it's being taken into consideration now because
I think if we had gone back, let's say, ten years,
and we talked about mental health, and someone was trying
to calculate my cost of mental health, but be like, well,
how much do you spend on medication each month? Yes,
how much was your doctor's appointment? Full stop, end of story,
that's the cost of my mental health. And that's not
(16:57):
the case. And I feel like I am I feel
like I've said I'm privileged already this episode, but I
just I feel so genuinely lucky that the circumstances I
am in are favorable. Like I don't know how to
say this without sounding like an absolute whine carpick. My
(17:17):
career has been successful. I've been so lucky that things
have lined up for me and that I have worked
my butt off and done all these other things.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
But there are so many people in this.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
World who have worked their absolute butts off and are
at a loss when it comes to their career or
what has happened. And I mean, I'm not saying that
I have lost any of those things. And I think personally,
if you were to quantify my loss, I actually think
that my mental health has really played into my success.
Like I was talking about my ADHD the other day
(17:46):
with a friend and they're like, oh, how do you
really think that your ADHD has impacted She's on the
money and you know Zella and creating Zella money and
all that, And I just said, I don't think I
would have She's on the money and Zella money without
my AID. Right, they are a product of me being
obsessed with something, which is one of the things that
happens when you have ADHD. I get so fixated on
(18:09):
one particular topic that that's why we've deep dived into it,
That's why I created it. I don't think I would
have been able to commit to something like She's on
the Money without my mental health issues. So I'm very lucky.
But that's not the reality of everybody else. Because we
go back to that number of eleven point eight billion
dollars in loss productivity.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
So my experience is not the norm. No, my experience
is so far from the Norman. It's not funny. We know.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
Social costs include increased rates of divorce, domestic violence, and
substance of use. Treatment costs include most medications under heavily
government subsidized, with public subsidies available through general practice mental
health care plans, medical consultation rebates, and the Pharmaceutical Benefit
Scheme the PBS, which we talked about in our last episode.
(18:57):
Public hospital admissions are reserved for the most mental health
conditions and are provided free of charge, and then moderate
medical health conditions including substance misuser treated largely by the
private hospital system, and inpatient treatments are often lengthy and
moderately expensive, with private health providers offering some subsidies for
(19:18):
inpatient care. But there's always, always, always a lot of
out of pocket when it comes to treatment like.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
That, right, Unfortunately, it's crazy? Is as crazy?
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Do they find any other direct links to physical conditions?
Speaker 4 (19:30):
So apparently many people with back problems, especially chronic back pain,
have poor mental health and are more likely to report
conditions like depression, anxiety, and psychological distress and when it
comes to getting treatment for other conditions. Adults with depression, anxiety,
and other mental health conditions are seven times more likely
to skip health care than people without a mental health condition.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
My gosh, that oh so frustrating, frustrating, and this conversation
in particular really just slap me in the face because
my best friend has a chronic back issue and she
her mental health is so poor and she thinks it's
because of other reasons. But say, I'm going to send it.
I'm going to send it this episode and tell her
to have a good listen.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
It breaks my heart as well, because I think so
many people think that their mental health is so in
their control.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Like it frustrates me.
Speaker 4 (20:19):
And I ended a friendship recently, actually back and I
ended it because this person couldn't see my side of
the tracks, right, Like we were talking about mental there
were so many other things, right, but just be happy
with something, she said, or why don't you just focus
on doing more pilates, or why don't you like she
just could not conceptualize that the issue that I was having,
(20:44):
you know, and have had for a number of years,
Like she just thought it was like a choice, like
people choose, right, to be unhappy. And I think when
you have a chronic health condition, you assume that your
mental health is it's just in your control. But once
you're able to get back out there, you'll be happy again.
And it's really not the case. Like your mental health is.
It can be in your control, right, Like I'm taking
(21:06):
control of my mental health by going and getting mental
health care practitioners involved and talking to my GP and
being on the right medication and doing all these things.
But it's not just a choice you make. You don't
get out of bed in the morning, Regin know what,
I'm just gonna choose to be happy today.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Yeah, I'm just going to choose to have a good day.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
I feel like I want to have anxiety today.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
Yeah, do you know what, I'm just not gonna have
anxiety today. I'm just going to go do this thing.
And Like it's funny because I think when I start
to share my mental health journey and what that means,
I think people look at me and go absolutely not, Victoria,
You're so confident. That doesn't mean it doesn't manifest in
other areas of my life. Can I get up on
stage and talk to a room of five thousand people absolutely,
(21:44):
I can easily can. I sometimes not get myself out
of bed, though, and spend days in my bed not
being able to get out. I refuse to answer the phone,
I refuse to check my emails. I refuse to do
a whole heap of things. I don't even get in
the shower if I've forgotten a medication. Yeah, absolutely, But
people don't see that side of things, and I think
they only see, you know, like, let's go back to
(22:05):
this social media thing. They only see the social media highlights.
They only see what you know, I'm putting out on online.
I'm not going to get my phone and take a
photo of me in bed after three day, like it's
just not going to happen because I'm not in that
mental space, Like it's just not going to happen.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Yeah, So I think it's.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
It's wild, especially if you've got chronic health condition like
your friend.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Of course, you're a bit down.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
You're not being supported in the way that you need
to be mentally supported and stimulated.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
There's another thing that people don't think about when it
comes to mental health, and that's the kind of depressures
on cares and caregiving. So we know that informal caregiving
often falls to family members. But what are the costs
of families and carers?
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (22:46):
So, cares for people with mental health conditions spend an
average of thirty six hours per week providing care. It's
two hours short my love of a full time job.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Wow wow wow.
Speaker 4 (22:58):
Twenty four percent receive care as payments, thirty four percent
don't receive any assistance in their caring role, and thirty
five percent don't know the services that are available to
support keres, which is the number that I really want
to focus on here. So I just they don't know
what they don't know because we don't talk about it.
And then if we don't talk about it, you don't
(23:19):
know what you can access exactly. Have these conversations and
the more we normalize this, the more we can advocate
for others as well. And I think that, you know,
especially when it comes to mental health, there's such a
stigma around it still where if somebody is experiencing depression
and anxiety, they might not want to talk about it,
(23:40):
and then that might extend to their care. And like
a care could be your husband, it could be your sibling,
it could be a parent, it could be literally anybody.
It could be your housemate that kind of picks up
the slack when you won't get out of bed, and
they then don't talk about it because they know that
you're a bit like closed off and don't really want
to talk about the issues. And then that extends to
them not being able to get the support that they need,
(24:01):
and then maybe they're experiencing their own mental health conditions
because they feel like they aren't open and honest about
the realities of their circumstance. So I think it's just
it goes on and on, and it's a cycle that
we really need to break, and we really need to
talk about more honestly and more openly and with a
lot more kindness than we currently approach to totally.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
Let's end the taboo, but I think this is a
really heavy topic. Let's go have a little break and
come back in five point two seconds.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
All right, V we are back.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
How do you feel I feel like that was longer
than five point two seconds. That was a little bit
longer than five point I feel like it's five point seven. Yeah, okay,
so maybe next time we'll shorten it, you know what.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
I'm going to stay on the counting side. Of the table.
Speaker 4 (24:47):
You say, on the content side of the table, I'll
do the maths. You're not involved in that deal because
at this point, I'm not even sure if you can
tell the time.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
I don't know what time. So so let's have a
little bit more of a closer look as some of
the costs and stats and breakdown specific disorders.
Speaker 4 (25:06):
Okay, all right, so let's talk about effective disorders. So
effective disorders are things like depression, bipolar, and schizophrenia. The
cost of depression is seventeen one hundred and ninety dollars
on average per individual. Average number of days off from
work each year if you have an effective disorder adds
(25:26):
up to seventy five point four days per year. Back,
do you know how many sick days most people get
in their work contracts? Barely anything ten Usually you get
ten sick days. That is seven times more than the
average that we are allocated. Fewer than two in five
people with anxiety and depression seek treatment, and recovery rate
(25:49):
is actually up to fifty percent in the first six months,
but the relapse rate is between thirty and fifty percent
for those who initially recover, which ends up putting a
lot of people in a cycle of feeling like it's
never going to get better. And as much as those
numbers feel low, they're actually, from my perspective, relatively high.
(26:11):
Indirect spending for effective disorders includes non health services and
social costs, so family breakdowns, going through a diporse, legal costs,
stuff like that. If an individual were paying four hundred
and fifty dollars per session for psychiatric treatment weekly, which
is a very normal amount of money, unfortunately to be
(26:31):
spending on seeing a psychiatrist, which my background is in psychology.
I have two psychology degrees, so I do know what
I'm talking about. When it comes to this, A psychologist
is not able to prescribe medication. A psychiatrist is. A
psychologist can talk you through things and you know, help
you get through a lot of situations. I see a
(26:51):
psychologist regularly, but when it comes to managing my ADHD,
and when it comes to managing my depression, which is
always going to be with me, I see a side
psychiatrist because I am on medications that have been prescribed
by my psychiatrist. So you can't go to a psychologist
and they go, oh, I'm going to diagnose you with depression.
Here's medication for that. They don't do that. So if
(27:13):
you have an effective disorder and you are on a
medication for that, or you are clinically diagnosed, you actually
have to see a psychiatrist. So this isn't like a choice, right,
But it can be about four hundred and fifty dollars
a session. We're using that number because it seems to
be an average and it's actually what I pay to
see my psychiatrist. They would be two hundred and ninety
(27:36):
six dollars per session out of pocket because you get
one hundred and fifty four dollars on a Medicare rebate
for that session. After the seventh week of treatment, the
individual would have already reached the Medicare safety net threshold,
which is two thousand and ninety three dollars and thirty
cents out of pocket in seven weeks.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
That is so awful.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
The can you imagine, like the costs just add up,
like how do you survive?
Speaker 2 (28:04):
How do you feed you? How do you afford that?
How do you afford to live? And then but also
like that's rent money, that's rent money.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
But imagine like you had a full time job, so
you could technically be affording all of these things if.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
You hadn't really want I don't think people like people
might be paying for it. But there's a difference between
being able to pay for something and being able to
afford it. So you're saying you're affording it, you're able
to service every other goal in your life, and that
is not impacting those things. No, But from my perspective,
even if you have an emergency fund and then you
have to see a psychiatrist on a weekly basis and
you're spending four hundred and fifty dollars a week, you're
(28:37):
technically able to pay for it, but you're not able
to afford it because your bigger goals aren't being met.
You might not be saving, you might not be investing
for your future. You might not you know, you might
be foregoing social activities or other things that are helpful
for your mental health. And I think we've all been there, right, Like,
I shouldn't see it this way, but I always see
it as like a may cost and you shouldn't do
(28:57):
this right Like I always go, oh, my gosh, well
I had a psych appointment or psychiatrist appointment this week.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
No, I won't buy a pilates pass this week.
Speaker 4 (29:05):
I think I might wait a bit because that was
an expensive week, when in reality the vallarates pass and
me getting physical activity is probably equally as important. But
I see it as a different like I see it
as a choice, and it shouldn't be like that was
a cost I had to incur. So I think it's
really interesting and that's why often you end up with
mixed care so often when you have a mental health condition.
(29:30):
And I mean disclaimer again, this is just anecdotal personal experience.
I'm not a doctor, and I'm not recommending that this
is the right mode of care. But my GP knows
how expensive my psychiatrist is, so he keeps in contact
with my psychiatrist, and my psychiatrist sees me wow, maybe
once every six months to approve my medications. And then
I go every three months to my GP to get
(29:52):
prescribed to my medications. But then I don't have to
go to the expensive psychiatrist appointment so often. But then
on top of that, I have a psycho cologist as well.
That's in that mix that I guess do the more
therapy side of things with, like we don't really talk
about medication, Like my psychiatrist's quite quite transactional. You could say,
it's kind of like a GP appointment. We do talk
(30:14):
about my mental health, but I'm not talking about how
I'm feeling or what I'm doing, because she checks in
with my psychologist to make sure I'm on track with that.
So you often end up with not just one psychiatrist appointment.
You've got GP, you've got psychologists, you've got psychiatrists, and
they all mix together, and then that becomes even more
expensive and you cap out your medicare rebate real quick.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
I'm telling you that right now, Isn't it wild? That's
really wild.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
And let's say in a hypothetical world you made trillions
of dollars per hour and you could afford all of
those things. But that's only if you get to go
to work every single day and you don't use up
you're sickly, you know that, Like when you're hungover or
just feeling tired and you can't go into work. Imagine
that time's a trillion, but you have to go to
(30:58):
work every single day. You have ten days of sick
leave per year, but you feel like that all the time.
That's your reality, and you've got to pay for all
these things, How are you meant to work and just
survive and go into work every day and like be
your best self if you're feeling so like you just can't,
you just can't.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
It's kind of like people who experience chronic pain conditions,
they just exactly so used to managing it that that
becomes the new normal and the new expectation. And it's
not right. It's not right, and when something else goes wrong,
they compare it, and so like, I've got a few
friends and even family members with chronic health conditions. And
(31:37):
it's interesting because if something else goes wrong, and I'm
going to use an example that I'm making up, but
like chronic health condition, let's call it really really awful
back pain. It's consistent, it's crippling. But then they break
their ankle. It's not that bad, but it like literally
changes the way that they're living their life. But in comparison,
they're kind of like, oh, it's not that bad in comparison, like,
(31:57):
I got it all, passed it up. She'll be right,
what anybody else breaking their ankle would be like, this
is you know, life ending.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
I can't believe this.
Speaker 4 (32:05):
I'm in a cast for the next six to eight weeks,
like you know, there's so much I need to do
and then I need to do rehab. They just don't
see it as that big of a deal. And that's
not okay, Like it's not okay to be in that
position because you should be mentally well and you should
be you know, able to be fit and healthy and
happy in all of those things, and are just yeah,
it really frustrates me. Like sometimes I want to shake
(32:25):
these people and be like it's actually okay that that's
a bad thing. Like we can say it's a bad
thing and like don't compare it or compartmentalize it in
the way that you are totally Moving on to another disorder,
let's talk about anxiety disorders, so that's things like panic, angoraphobia,
social phobia, generalized anxiety, obsessive compulsive disorder, and post traumatic
(32:45):
stress disorder. Average individual cost is between one hundred and
eighty six dollars and two hundred and sixty four dollars
if combined with another disorder. The average number of days
off per year are fifty three point six days per year,
so a bit less than depression. But also we need
to recognize comorbidity exists so often if you have anxiety,
(33:10):
the likelihood of you having depression is increased.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
As I mentioned before, I have both, like poor Ken
or lost Doss.
Speaker 4 (33:17):
There is for anxiety disorders a fifty to sixty percent
recovery rate and a fifty to sixty six percent relapse
rate of those who initially recover, which again makes you
feel like you're stuck in a cy call. And that's
not call at all.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
No, that would be very, very very tricky to live with.
I'm sorry, pee, No, don't be sorry. I'm okay.
Speaker 4 (33:39):
I'm literally okay, And I just see it as part
of me and I'm okay. We're just talking about the costs,
and I think that it's really important. And I don't
want people to listen to this and think the Victoria
is trying to make this all about her.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
No, I don't think that's the case at all. I
just believe that the.
Speaker 4 (33:54):
Best way of, you know, breaking down stigma is actually
to open the doors and open the conversation up around
yourself and as somebody who I'm just grateful to be
in this position where you do get to talk to
you guys about these things. I can't just stand here
and be like, it's important to talk about mental health
back because you'd be like, cool, Victoria. Everybody else is
(34:14):
saying that. But if I go, it's important to talk
about mental health and I actually experience these things. Here's
my experience. This is what this looks like. You go, wow,
I didn't realize. You know that not only will there
be psychiatric cost, but a psychologist and your GP involved,
and they'd be like this mix in this triangle of
people that have to talk to one another to manage
your condition. Like, I just think it's so much more
(34:36):
practical to have practical and pragmatic conversation where it's just like, well, Beck,
it is what it is. Moving on to substance use disorders.
So average individual cost is between one hundred and eighty
six and two hundred and fifty eight dollars per year
if combined with another disorder, and the average number of
days off per week are forty point two days per year.
(34:59):
Recovery rate is up to eighty percent, which is Chef's kiss.
Could be higher, but that's you know, they're the numbers
we want to start saying. Unfortunately, relapse rate is between
forty and sixty percent, and people with Substance use disorders
are often frequent users of psychiatric services. Although many services
are publicly funded, there are still and there may still
(35:20):
be payment gaps for individuals seeking counseling or medication or
rehabilitation centers and self help programs or support networks. The
other thing I want to say about substance use disorders
is I guess the underlying cost of the substance that
you have a dependency on, because obviously, when it comes
to depression, like I'm not going out and getting a
(35:42):
substance that is costing me a lot of money that
results in depression, I am. You know, if you have
a substance use disorder, it's usually really expensive, especially here
in Australia, Like it's not accessible obviously for good reasons
because usually they're illegal. But it's one of those things
where that average individual cost is not including how much
(36:03):
you're spending on those substances, and that can be financially
crippling for many, many people. And obviously there's a lot
of conversation around that because substance use disorders are the
disorder that leads to the highest levels of homelessness in Australia,
and obviously there's a lot of comorbidity there as well
(36:24):
when it comes to having another disorder. Moving on to
the topic and the I guess subheading of suicide beck
suicide is the leading cause of death for Australians between
the ages of fifteen and forty four, and is the
second leading cause of death for Australians aged forty five
to fifty four years old.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
That is pretty opening. I had.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
It is no idea that it was so high.
Speaker 4 (36:51):
It's insane because suicide, I think, doesn't get the conversation
happening around it that it deserves.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
And I mean, there are so many.
Speaker 4 (36:58):
Beautiful charities and forums that discuss this, but we just
don't discuss it as a community as a whole. It's
kind of like, oh, yeah, let's talk about Beyond Blue
and the work that they're doing. But I feel like
it's always really niched down to a particular campaign. It's
not an ongoing conversation, and suicide is an outcome of
(37:21):
mental health conditions and all the conversations that we've just
had and all of the disorders that we've been talking
about today, they lead to or can lead to suicide,
and somebody going through that process and I just think
that we need to care about these things more because
people just deserve more from our community.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
We we really, really do.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
I completely agree with that. Now, just moving on slightly,
Can we now talk about mental health care plans? How
the hell do they work?
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Absolutely?
Speaker 4 (37:53):
We can, and I am the biggest advocate of a
mental health care plan. We talked when Rhann and Tracy
was on on our episode a lot about insurance and
the importance of insurance. And I think that the first
thing I want you to do as a human being.
I'm not saying before a mental health care plan, but
I am saying you need to consider your personal insurance
(38:14):
needs sooner rather than later. And the reason I say
that is because insurers in Australia take into consideration exclusions, right.
So an exclusion is where they don't include something in
your insurance cover. So, Beck, you might have broken your
ankle a couple of times playing netball, and then you
go and do your survey to get new insurance and
(38:35):
they go, Beck, if you got any health conditions and
you say, nah, got nothing.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
If you had anything.
Speaker 4 (38:39):
Happen to you historically, and you go, yep, broke my
ankle playing netball.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
And then they come back and say, no worries.
Speaker 4 (38:44):
Beck, we would love to ensure you, but here are
our conditions.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
What we're going to do.
Speaker 4 (38:50):
We're going to insure your whole body and your whole mind,
but we're not going to ensure that one ankle, and.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
We're not going to want to do to do with
the air.
Speaker 4 (38:57):
Don't want anything to do with the ankle because you've
already broken once. So because it's already been broken once,
it's a bit compromised. It means that you're more likely
to break it again. So we just don't want that.
And you go, all right, Well, when it comes to insurance,
that makes sense, right, Like it's kind of like car insurance.
If you're a bad driver and you keep crashing, they're
gonna say, probably going to charge you a little bit more, Beck,
(39:18):
Your premiums are going to go up because you keep crashing.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Yeah, you're a bit of a Risk's a bit.
Speaker 4 (39:23):
Of a risk, right, And that's exactly how personal insurances work.
And there are lots of different risks involved in personal insurance.
But the younger you are when you apply for personal insurance,
the less likely you have experienced a significant life and
health event, which means the less likely you are to
have exclusions in your cover, so hypothetically, in the future,
(39:45):
you can claim on more stuff. I want insurance to
be the biggest waste of money you've ever spent money on, beck, Like,
I want you to be paying for insurance every single month,
and I want you to look at that cost and
be like, didn't claim on that.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
That's not great. Like, I want it to be a
waste of money. I see what you mean. I want
you to be wasting your money on insurance. Wow.
Speaker 4 (40:04):
But hypothetically, if something did happen to you yesterday and
you needed to I want that cover to be there.
Speaker 3 (40:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (40:10):
And I think that framing it that way, people go, oh, okay,
because how many times have you looked at your insurance
You go, that's a lot of money. But also, I'm
getting nothing out of this good Yes, true, I don't
want you to get anything out of your insurance because
if you're not claiming on your personal insurances, you know
what that means. You're probably happy and healthy and haven't
(40:31):
broken anything and haven't been hit by a bus and
haven't had these awful things happen to you.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Yeah, that's a life win. True. Stop seeing it as
a money loss. That is so true.
Speaker 4 (40:42):
The segue to this is I really want you to
think about insurance now and today and care about it,
because the sooner you get it implemented, the less likely
you are to have a pre existing health condition taken
into consideration. And I say this before a mental health
care plan because over the last I would say seven
(41:03):
years since the Royal Commission, and everything about financial advice
and insurances, really.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
I guess got shook up.
Speaker 4 (41:10):
You could say, mental health care plans are seen by
insurers and they do take them into consideration.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
We're offering you cover.
Speaker 4 (41:19):
And it's a really shitty thing that I have to
say that I really want you to be insured before
you go down this pathway because it breaks my heart,
or it used to break my heart every single time
I had to sit down with a client and say,
I know that you did the right thing for you,
and you went and got a mental health care plan,
and now you are healthy and you are happy, and
(41:40):
you're not even seeing anyone and you're not even on
any medications. But when we did your medical history, the
insurer came back and said that you were on a
mental health care plan. So we're Young covering you for
mental health in your insurance. Oh my, isn't that good?
Isn't that just like the most messed up thing ever?
And it pisces me off? And I understand the risk
(42:01):
behind it. I can see it from both sides. I
can understand that as an insurer, mental health is becoming
and I won't say mental health issues are becoming more prevalent,
because I think that they've been there all the time,
but we are now getting the help that we deserve
for them. And that is costing insurer's money because you're
claiming on your income protection to take time off work
(42:22):
to put you first, and you should be able to
do that. But when it comes to an insurer, their
job is to kind of manage risk. And there's people
called underwriters and their job is to have a look
at the risk. And now, I guess weigh up the
pros and cons of offering Beck cover and if you
have had mental health conditions historically and seen a GP
and then maybe seen a psychiatrist for it, they're going
(42:44):
to look at that and go, Okay, cool, you know what, Beck,
We're not going to offer it to you. Maybe we
can reconsider this in two years but if it's something
like I have sat down with clients who have attempted suicide,
and then because they've attempted suicide, it's just an instant
decline on mental health cover.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Do you know what?
Speaker 4 (43:03):
There's nothing else to say about it except it's really shitty.
And I hate the fact that, as an ex financial advisor,
when you ask me about a mental health care plan,
and I promise I'm about to explain exactly.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
How they work.
Speaker 4 (43:14):
But I hate that I have to go on a
tangent because I feel like it's the most responsible thing
for me to do to say, mental health care plans
are really important. Please talk to your GP. Please get
the health care that you absolutely deserve and need, but
please make sure that you have the insurances you need first,
because if you go down that route, there is a
very big probability that by disclosing that you have had
(43:35):
a mental health care plan, you might get an exclusion.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
That is very solid advice. It's unfortunately awful.
Speaker 4 (43:40):
It's unfortunate because you shouldn't be thinking about your mental
health right now and going, oh, well, I'm feeling pretty terrible.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
I should go to the doctor. But Victoria said, let's
get our insurances sorted. Let's not do that.
Speaker 4 (43:51):
Let's be mentally healthy today and go and get our
insurances sorted, so if we experience anything in the future,
we don't have pre existing conditions on our insurance application.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Sure.
Speaker 4 (44:01):
Back to your question, though, Beck, you asked a very
good question. Actually, not back to that. You guys are
going to slide into my DMS and say I need insurance,
and I'm going to reply, Please go talk to my
friend Phil at Sky Wealth. He's not paying me to
say this. I just don't want to reply to six
hundred different dms of people going Victoria. You talked about
the importance of getting insurance sorted. Phil is a financial
(44:24):
advice friend that I have had for many, many years now.
He used to run a full service financial advice business
and decided that he was really passionate about insurance and
now does insurance only advice. And for I think it's
between three and four hundred dollars are his fees. So
he's not going to charge you what a holistic financial
advisor would charge to implement your insurances, which would be
(44:46):
around three and a half to five thousand dollars. Wow,
he is a lot cheaper because all he does is insurance.
So if you want to go to him and start investing,
he's not going to do that. He's just going to say, cool,
don't do that. All he does is insurance, and his
team are structured and make that as accessible as possible.
And if you know somebody else that runs a business
like Phil's where his financial advice is actually relatively accessible
(45:10):
in terms of cost, please let me know, because I
do not know anybody else running a business as accessible
as Phil at this point with the quality of advice
associated with it. So that's yeah, that's my plug. I
know that that sounds really salesy, and it kind of was. No,
it was meant to because I want you to get insurance.
Oh okay, Like it was meant to because I wanted
(45:30):
you to get insurance. But also I just wanted to
be really transparent about who feels he's like, he's a
nice Guy's fair Anyway, you asked a question, and the
question was Victoria, can we now talk about mental health
care plan?
Speaker 2 (45:42):
Please? Like, yeah, no worries.
Speaker 4 (45:44):
So if you would like a mental health care plan,
your GP can write you want. It's very simple. You
don't even need to I think you do. Actually need
to went booking. Let your like GP know that it's
going to be a bit of a longer appointment. You
can't just book the fifteen minute one because you do
actually need to do a bit of a survey, So
just heads up on that. From the first of January
twenty twenty three, with a mental health care plan, you're
(46:06):
able to access a total of ten Medicare rebates for
your appointments with your clinician in this calendar year. So
calendar not financial sets in December yep, at the end
of December. If you have sessions remaining on an existing
mental health care plan and current referrals for your sessions
(46:28):
from twenty twenty two, whether for the initial ten or
an additional ten, you'll be able to use the referral
to access up to ten sessions in twenty twenty three
without having to go back to your GP, which is good.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
That is very good.
Speaker 4 (46:43):
Typically, following six Medicare rebated appointments, your clinician is going
to write a progress report relating to your treatment goals
and you're going to or you will be eligible to
get a re referral from your doctor for an extra
for Medicare rebated appointments, which does of another trip to
the GP following the four extra Medicare rebated sessions. Your
(47:05):
clinician will write a further treatment update to your doctor
and it will go from there.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
So how much does this cost this?
Speaker 4 (47:12):
She's on the money back, I'm dying to know. If
you qualify for the Mental Health Care Plan, you'll be
eligible to receive a Medicare rebate of one hundred and
thirty one dollars and sixty five cents for an appointment
with a clinical psychologist or eighty nine dollars and sixty
five cent Medicare rebate for an appointment with a psychologist.
(47:33):
Note the difference between clinical psychologist and psychologist there.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
Oh yeah you're psychiatrist.
Speaker 4 (47:40):
Yeah, it's important that there's a differentiation there. If you
are booking an appointment and you just google Medicare rebate
with psychologist and it comes up as one hundred and
thirty one and then, yeah, you just don't want to
get those two mixed up in case you're not getting
the rebate that you're expecting. If you're like budgeting, okay,
this Medicare rebate amount will increase once you reach your
(48:00):
individual slash family extended Medicare Safety Net threshold of two thousand,
two hundred and forty nine dollars eighty which is the
general threshold where you will then receive back eighty percent
of the out of pocket expenses for your ongoing sessions
with a psychologist.
Speaker 3 (48:16):
Okay, on paper, I think that's good.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
On paper, it is good. I mean still an expense.
It's still an expense.
Speaker 4 (48:23):
I've said this before on the podcast. I'm very grateful
to live in Australia with the healthcare system that we
have because we are so incredibly supported. Is it the
best healthcare system in the entire world? No, there's better
out there, Like, yeah, feelin's amazing.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
I may no Way Norway. Oh so the government pays
for us.
Speaker 4 (48:44):
So it's not it's not as though, you know, their
psychologists are cheaper or anything like that. It's just their
governments have put more of a priority on having no
gap healthcare and so they cover that it would be included.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
In their taxes.
Speaker 4 (48:58):
I see, at the end of the day, they are
paying taxes and that's what their taxes are going towards.
And I mean when it comes to like our Medicare
rebates and stuff, that's what our taxes go towards. Yeah,
so the money has to come from somewhere.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (49:09):
So I guess talking about this stuff is really important
to me because I care a lot about our community,
I care a lot about mental health, and I care
a lot about making sure that you are well protected.
And that's why I went on that insurance rant. I'll
pop a whole heap of details in the show notes.
If that's something that you're like, oh, Vian, I hadn't
really considered it. I really think it's important. But I
(49:30):
also think it's important to continue this conversation beyond just
us doing an episode on a zeric white paper, like
I think the white paper they're so sexy, like so sexy.
Speaker 2 (49:41):
I've read it so many times.
Speaker 4 (49:42):
I can't tell you how many times I've forwarded it
because it's in a PDF. I've shared it with heaps
of my friends. I've sent it to advisors who are like, Victoria,
I've ready seen this, and I'm like, yeah, but read
it again. It's really really helpful. But I think that
from this what we should be doing is really opening
the conversation up about the cost of mental health. And
(50:02):
we don't have time today, but we will continue this
conversation in our Facebook group and we have honest, non
judgmental conversations about what is costing you and what it's
costing our community. And you know, what are your hacks
and tips and tricks and all of that. I want
to know absolutely.
Speaker 3 (50:18):
And also if this conversation has negatively impacted you, please
reach out to your would you say GP for any advice.
Speaker 4 (50:26):
You reach out to your GP will pop some resources
in the show, not as we always.
Speaker 3 (50:31):
Do, exactly, but yeah, I think this has been really good,
heavy but good conversation that needs to happen. So I
feel like let's go and absorb this, so usually.
Speaker 2 (50:41):
Do exactly I guess leaving it here.
Speaker 4 (50:43):
Your mental health does not define you as a human
beings exactly right, full stop, end of story.
Speaker 2 (50:48):
We love you and we hope that you have the
best day ever and we will see you for Friday
drinks on Friday.
Speaker 3 (50:54):
Bye guys.
Speaker 4 (51:01):
The advice shared on She's on the Money is general
in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She's
on the Money exists purely for educational purposes and should
not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision.
If you do choose to buy a financial product, read
the PDS, TMD and obtain appropriate financial advice tailored towards
(51:21):
your needs. Victoria Divine and She's on the Money are
authorized representatives of Money. Sheper Pty Ltd ABN three two
one six four nine two seven seven zero eight AFSL
four five one two eight nine
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