Why Women Need to Work 50 Extra Days to Earn the Same As Men... And How to Push Back

Women need to work 50 extra days just to earn what men made last financial year… and today, August 19, marks those extra days. It’s called Equal Pay Day, and in this special bonus episode Victoria is joined by Dr Samone McCurdy from the Workplace Gender Equality Agency to unpack the reality of the gender pay gap.

But don’t worry, this isn’t your average “boring stats” chat. This is one of those conversations that’s equal parts frustrating, eye-opening, and empowering… the kind that’ll fire you up to demand better for yourself and for every woman who comes after you.

Inside this ep:
💸 Why the gender pay gap isn’t just “equal pay for equal work” 
💸 The real reasons women are stuck playing financial catch-up to men
💸 How the gap shows up beyond your your payslip and into every part of your money life
💸 How falling behind today snowballs into less wealth and fewer choices tomorrow
💸 Why “just ask for a raise” isn’t the fix, and what actually needs to change
💸 The practical moves you can make right now to start closing your own gap

Links & Resources:
🔗Sign up to the WGEA Newsletter
🔗More info on why Equal Pay Day even exists 
🔗 The Gender Pay Gap Explained 
🔗 How to Calculate a Gender Pay Gap 
🔗How does your employer measure up?
🔗Compare your employer to your industry and national data

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Acknowledgement of Country By Nartarsha Bamblett aka Queen Acknowledgements.

The advice shared on She's On The Money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She's On The Money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision. If you do choose to buy a financial product, read the PDS, TMD and obtain appropriate financial advice tailored towards your needs. Victoria Devine and She's On The Money are authorised representatives of Money Sherpa PTY LTD ABN - 321649 27708, AFSL - 451289.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
My name is Tatasha Bamblet. I'm a proud First Nations
woman and I'm here to acknowledge country t glennyan Ganya, Niana,
Kaka yah Ya bin Ahaka Nian our gay in Mbina,
yakarum Jar, Dominyamka Domaga Ithawakawaman, damon imlan Bma bang Gadabomba
in and now in wakah Ghana on yak rum Jar

(00:20):
water Nadaa. Hello, beautiful friends, we gather on the lands
of the Aboriginal people. We thank acknowledge and respect the
Abiginal people's land that we're gathering on today. Take pleasure
in all the land and respect all that you see.
She's on the Money podcast acknowledges culture, country, community and connections,

(00:40):
bringing you the tools, knowledge and resources for you to thrive.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
She's on the Money. She's on the Money.

Speaker 3 (01:07):
Hello, and welcome to She's on the Money, The finance
podcast that Knows Financial Empowerment.

Speaker 2 (01:13):
Starts with saying the quiet parts out loud.

Speaker 3 (01:16):
I'm your host, Victoria Devine, and you might be wondering
why am I coming into your ears on a Tuesday. Well,
today is not just any old Tuesday, guys. It is
Equal Payday here in Australia, a day that exists because,
contrary to what the men in the comments section would
have you believe, the gender pay gap is real and
no it's not just about two people being paid differently

(01:39):
for the same damn job. So today we are dropping
into your feed with a little bonus episode to unpack
what the gap actually is, why it exists, and what
we can do about it.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
And to do that, it's not just me. I've brought
in an absolute powerhouse.

Speaker 3 (01:54):
Doctor Simone McCurdy is one of the leading voices in
workplace gender equality, worked with everyone from Victoria Police to
national policy makers, and now leads the insights team at WGEA,
the agency that literally publishes Australia's gender pay gap data.
If you've seen those headlines about how your employer stacks

(02:14):
up in the gender pay gap, Simone and her team
are the ones behind it. Welcome to the show, Simone,
I am genuinely so excited about this episode, even though
it's a really terrible topic.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
I'm really excited to be here as well. As I
was saying before, it's good to meet people who is
excited about talking gender pay gaps and gender equality. In
the workplace as I am.

Speaker 3 (02:36):
It's a funny topic when we talk about it in
that way, right, Yes, Like I'm excited to talk about it,
but it shouldn't exist. So it's like I'm excited, but
not for the reasons you guys might think. I just
think that what a platform to be able to talk
about this today. And I just feel so special that
you have found the time to come on our show
and talk to us about this because I can talk

(02:57):
about the gender pay gap until the cows come home.
I use your research, I quote your stuff all the time.
But sorry to have the big dog in a big
chair like this is the best thing in the entire world.
As I mentioned in your intro, you've spent your entire
career working in spaces that champion women's equality. What first
drew you to this work and what is your secret

(03:18):
to being so.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
Passionate about it? Well, I was actually going to be
a human rights I really wanted to, so I'm not
surprised by that. Yeah, but that does not surprise me
at all. And yeah, I just I think the you know,
I just went once I sort of started thinking about
this work and being in industrial relations, which is where
I sort of ended up just seeing the inequality, and

(03:41):
particularly in the workplace, when technically everything should be contractual.
You know, you turn up to a place, you provide
your labor, your heart and soul for a certain amount
of hours. It's all sort of a guaranteed under contract,
and yet it's a place like any community, that we
find a lot of very So I was really excited

(04:01):
about dipping into that. I think the passion just stays up,
but I think I really started to become wanting to
take a deep dive into what drives things like gender
pay gaps. When I have my baby, it changes you. Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (04:20):
Tell you're pregnant, you're going it might change me. I'm
a passionate woman with a career and like it.

Speaker 2 (04:26):
I'm sorry. As someone who also has a kid, I'm like, yeah,
so what they say is true. I just become this
nineteen fifties housewife.

Speaker 3 (04:33):
I've done all the totally you know you actually like
up level your beast mode. I feel we become even
more aggressive about the things that we're passionate about because
we realize how impactful they are for future generations. And
I'm like, I'm not having my literal son grow up
thinking that's normal.

Speaker 2 (04:49):
Absolutely not Yeah, absolutely, And I think you know, part
of the journey for me was then going back and
doing a PhD. And I got to sit in the
lounge rooms of whole range of couples talking to them
about the impact of children on their work and family
and what policies they used, and that just solidified for
me that's something really had to change. So that's something

(05:10):
I think about actually each and every day icon behavior.
So I have to ask, what is it actually like
doing this work day to day, because like all of
that is very aspirational and really inspirational, but I feel
like you could fall into a bit of a slog,
like because I feel like we are pushing stuff up
here when it comes to gender pay gap. I feel
like so many people are non believers. They go that

(05:32):
doesn't exist, and like that narrative is exhausting because like
I'm such a factual person. I'm like, sorry, like do
some research, Like your incompetence is showing. But do you
feel hopeful about where we're heading at this point in
time or do you feel like we're currently just on
the long slog, Like what's that lack day to day?
Because it could be exhausting. Yep. I think I've been

(05:55):
doing this for twenty two years now, so I have
to say, more than any other time in that career,
I feel enormously hopeful and feel like we really are
on a fast track to change. I think part of
that comes from the privilege that I have is going
and talking to people each and every day, and particularly

(06:17):
going into the boards and c suites of the biggest
organizations in Australia and some of the greatest minds in Australia,
and I talk to men and women about how they're
leading those corporate teams, how they're thinking about it from
a business perspective, and I have to say my sense
is there is a real genuine curiosity. I don't think

(06:38):
it is performative. I think there's a real curiosity about
how they can change this. They know it's important, they
know it's important to their people and their shareholders and
their communities. I think the biggest thing is they want
to learn more about it, so there's certainly open to that.
And I think the other part is the legislative framework

(06:59):
that we have through publishing gender pay gaps and now
most recently putting in place compliance targets for organizations that
are five hundred or more employees, it really has set
up the platform to ensure that those boards and those
CEOs and the executives are actually intervening in a meaningful way,

(07:21):
in a purposeful way and doing something different. And those
two things coming together, I think the intent and the
will to learn, and the legislative environment that is requiring
them to step into the space on a regular and
informed basis, There's never been a better time. I think
if we ever have a chance of turning, the tide

(07:42):
is now.

Speaker 3 (07:42):
And I'm so excited about it because even in the
lead up to this day, I've seen just more amplified
social media, more people talking about it, more women of
influenced talking about it, And I just go, this is
so exciting because for a long time, I don't think
women who were in leadership positions or positions of influence,
we're comfortable talking about it because of the backlash that

(08:05):
they would get. They'd go, well, they do, like, if
you've got them one on one, they would say, yeah, absolutely,
I believe in it, like we need to fix it.
But they weren't as willing to take to their social
media platforms and share their narrative or share their story
because they'll be like, look, yes, it's going to reach
the right audience, but it's also going to reach this
other audience and that can be exhausting as well. And
I just see so many women going, do you know what?

(08:25):
Put that in the b And I don't even care
about the people who have hate for this. I just
see such a clarity in the content creation this year
as opposed to every other year.

Speaker 2 (08:35):
And me, I'm like, yes, this.

Speaker 3 (08:36):
Is what I've been trying to yell about the whole time.
So I want to go back to your work for
a second. Tell me about the current organization you work for.
So you work for the WGEA, what do they do?

Speaker 4 (08:48):
I know?

Speaker 2 (08:49):
But like for our community, what do they do? How
do they do it? And why them? Well wouldja? The
Workplace Genderal Quality Agency is a federal government agency. We
are a small but mighty team of around sixty people
who on various levels either pursue organizations, not actually pursue

(09:10):
them in that kind of compliance way, but really help
them to bring their best data forward in a collective sense.
So they report to us every single year. So we
have a regulatory function where we collect data from the
workplaces on gender equality. Now, what we do with that
data is analyze it and we send it back out

(09:31):
and it helps to inform government, for example, on policies
and practices that they need to put in place. But
most importantly, it informs organizations and employers about how they're
tracking on gender equality, on the metrics and the data
that actually matter. And importantly, we really now are trying
to move into a different space which is helping them

(09:54):
build their capability and their capacity, which is what my
team do on a daily basis make meaning of that data,
and that's really important because it is different for each
organization and then build the capability and the capacity in
their own organizations to actually do something purposeful and meaningful
with that data and create the change that As I said,

(10:16):
I think there is the aspiration and there is certainly
the will, but not everyone is able to understand how
to do that. And so we have this little mantra
at WITHJEA that we shift people from knowing better to
doing better, and we really try to bring in that
practice element to help organizations to understand and find meaning

(10:38):
in that data. So it's data for a purpose, it's
not just all just reporting. That's right. Organizations go through
a little bit of pain because it's quite a detailed
report that they have to do every year. We're getting
better and better as an agency, I think, in streamlining
that process. But the most important thing that we really
want to do each and every day is help organizations

(11:00):
to think that it's worth it. Yeah, they can use
that data in a meaningful way and create more gender
equal experiences in their workplace. For me, that's really exciting,
like just data.

Speaker 3 (11:11):
As someone who has a background in psychology and statistics,
I just get very excited about that. But data tells
a story and like so it's not just about collecting
the data, it's about your team really extrapolating that out
and being like, well, this means this, and this looks
like this, and this is going to be the outcome.
Like that's the power in data. And I'm just I'm

(11:32):
so excited to see what you guys are going to
do this year. Because I obviously today is the nineteenth
of August as we are publishing this, but it is
equal payday to day, and I think a lot of
people are like, oh, random day for equal payday. It's
actually not a random day. How has that date been
decided and what does it tell us?

Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah, no, it's certainly not random. It's very very purposeful.
It is actually the amount of days from the end
of the financial year that women have to work in
order to make pay parody with gross. Yes, that's gross,
but also very cool that you guys did that, but
also ill, So fifty days on average. That figure comes

(12:17):
from the ABS. You look at the gender pay gap,
they rate that at the moment at about eleven point
nine percent. So at eleven point nine percent difference between
you know, the weekly average earnings of men and women,
all things being equal, that equates to fifty extra days

(12:38):
that women have to work in order to have that
pay parent Because we aren't doing enough already. No, we're
bit you know leisure being, aren't we.

Speaker 3 (12:46):
Yeah, Like, we've just got that extra time up our sleeves,
like about all the data in like if we extrapolate
it out across every other area of our lives, we
just we just have so much free time, so it
just makes sense to give us that extra work. It
drives me insane, and my community know, I'm quite vocal
about this online and have been known to get in

(13:11):
a little bit of a disagreement in the comments section,
But every single time it comes up on our social media,
on someone else's social media, there is always going to
be that person in the comments section that says, this
isn't real, it's actually illegal to pay women less than
men for the same job.

Speaker 2 (13:30):
And what do you have to say to that? Well, look,
I think my response is always curious. I think people
come to this at different levels of understanding, and I
think it's important certainly for me and you know, working
with a whole host of organizations and people. It's a
really common misconception, but it is actually that a misconception.

(13:54):
The gender pay gap is real, and certainly the way
that we jea approach it is looking at a total
remuneration pay gap, which includes not it's not equal pay
for equal work. That is something very different. And I think,
you know, some of your avid contributors have pointed out
it is illegal in this country to have the same

(14:16):
job and pay a woman differently to a man.

Speaker 3 (14:19):
Yes, that's not rocket science. You are correct, that is illegal.
That's actually not what we're talking about, though, So sit
down and lessen.

Speaker 2 (14:25):
Yeah, so it is. It is sort of a very
different calculation and it's an important one that total remuneration
approach looks at not just the pay differences between men
and women in terms of wages, so what you would
earn as a salary, but all that other discretionary kind
of remuneration that goes into a package, things like superannuation,

(14:47):
over time bonuses. Because it's actually here that we start
to see the differences and importantly the differences over the
life cause, which I know you and your community are
right on because it speaks directly the things like superannuation,
which I will jump up and down.

Speaker 3 (15:06):
Every single day until I die about this topic. Like
you want to talk about superannuations. Sit down, let's go
Like I just and it's not because I want you
to just be rich. I want you to have exactly
the same opportunities and not miss out. And that's the
important part here. So many women are missing out, and
that's where we need to have a quick conversation about

(15:28):
the difference between well, what is equal pay and then
what is the gender pay gap? Because I think a
lot of people just go, oh, the gender pay gap
is about equal pay for women, and that's actually a
completely incorrect statement.

Speaker 2 (15:40):
So tell me the difference between the two and how.

Speaker 3 (15:44):
If we're maybe having some conversations because most people listen
to our podcast in the morning, most of them are
in their cars on their way to work.

Speaker 2 (15:50):
High I hope you had a coffee because you're.

Speaker 3 (15:52):
Going to get to work and maybe you're going to
talk about the gender pay gap, and you might come
up against me that's illegal.

Speaker 2 (15:57):
What's the difference between the two. Well, the difference is
ultimately in the calculation, and I have to say, ultimately
in the intent. So you know, when we're talking about
like for like pay gaps, we are talking about that
legal framework that says it is it is just illegal
to pay a woman and a man differently. You know,
you cannot pay people differently based on their gender. So

(16:20):
that's sort of a given. And as I said, a
lot of people think that that's what the gender pay
gap is about. But the gender pay gap represents the
total sum of the disadvantage that women accumulate over a
period of time. So we measure it in twelve months
every twelve months, and into that goes things like superannuation,

(16:41):
discretionary pay bonuses, those kinds of things, and that's when
you get the real picture of that disadvantage. That's often hidden.
So I just I want to sort of step back
and really be clear that I don't think that any
organization or any manager, male or female, it would actively

(17:03):
go out of their way to discriminate on the grounds
of gender, for example, or probably any of the other
protected attributes. I really get that sense that it's not
necessarily a deliberate thing. But what organizations now have is
a responsibility to understand exactly what is driving their gender
pay gaps. And it's those hidden things that we often

(17:25):
don't think about. And I can give you a really
great example most recently, working with an organization who could
not work out how the gender pay gap was still
existing in their graduate cohort. So they bring a lot
of graduates into their organization every year. Then they tracked
them after five years, and there's a gender pay gap.
You know, the men are getting paid more than the women.

(17:49):
Now they started on the same salary, they had.

Speaker 3 (17:52):
The technically exactly the same opportunity, with exactly the same grad.

Speaker 2 (17:55):
P exact exactly so all things being equal. So then
when they're tracked over that time, when we started to
break down the data, we actually saw that the men
were going into the areas of the business that like
finance it we know what happens at the end of
financial year, right, there's this flurry of activity to close

(18:17):
everything off, to get all your reports done, et cetera,
et cetera. There's lots of overtime involved in that. Now,
the women were mostly going into things like HR marketing, sales,
those kinds of things, and their overtime, for example, just
wasn't available in those particular positions. So there we have

(18:37):
really a clean example of absolute unintentional bias and disadvantage
that was happening in a program that really attempted to
make things equal. But yet when we pursue and had
to look at the data and unpacked it, we can
see that there was a disadvantage. Now that accumulates over
the life course, you are already behind the april. And

(18:58):
that's exactly the afffect that we're trying to get employers
to be more cognizant of and really help them to
understand what's driving it so that they can stand the tide.
And I'm glad to say that that organizations are now
looking at their graduates or their entry level programs with
that in mind and thinking about the love that I
love that so much, and like we are she's on

(19:20):
the money right. So a lot of people that listen
to my content are really excited about investing, and I
kin this to an investing journey. You know, at the
very start, it.

Speaker 3 (19:30):
Kind of feels fruitless, like the first twelve months, like
you've got your grad job, maybe you've just like downloaded shares,
yes or whatever, and you've invested your first fifty bucks.

Speaker 2 (19:37):
And like there's no real big changes.

Speaker 3 (19:39):
And then like after the first year, you've got like
not that many dividends and you're like, wow, my chafful
olia made thirty cents, Like that's amazing. But the important thing,
and I keep saying this, I'm like, we're in doubt.
Zoom out, Like we need to look at the bigger picture.
It's not about what's happening day to day or even
week to week. It's not even about the conversations you
and I are having about investing on the show. It's

(20:00):
about those little things that add up over a long
period of time that make the big difference. So you know,
it's the additional coffee money that you're investing, it's the
additional things here and there where you go Oh yeah,
I did select you know, on my investing platform dividend
reinvestment plan, and like these small things that you might
not have known about that you can trigger and tweak

(20:21):
that over the long term. Then I look back and go,
holy guacamole, I have one hundred thousand dollars invested, and
if I hadn't done this, I only would have had
ten thousand. That to me is a really good comparison
to the gender pay gap, because day to day you're
going into these organizations, people are passionate.

Speaker 2 (20:37):
They don't want a gender pay gap.

Speaker 3 (20:40):
But then when we zoom out, we go okay, cool, Like,
let's look at a ten year timeframe on someone's career.
Let's pretend they've both done that grad program and somehow
stayed with the same organization for ten years. We're looking
at them going, Wow, they did the same degree, the
same opportunity, the same grad program. That woman's now on
seventy thousand dollars and that man's one hundred and eighty.
How how did we get here? And it's not because

(21:02):
they're not enjoying their jobs. It's because there have been
a series of small things along the way that guide
different genders in different ways, and that could be completely subliminal,
and we actually need to kind of like get rid
of our blinkers and go, well, what does that look like?

Speaker 2 (21:19):
How does that work?

Speaker 3 (21:20):
So just the idea that people are even looking at
their grad programs to eliminate this makes me so excited
because there's someone who did a grad program so gendered,
like just even accidentally, like I.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
Was the one that was asked empty the dishorsher cleaning
up afterwards.

Speaker 3 (21:39):
But like it's just all of those things where it's
just like default my job somehow, and I'm not saying
that that's because people expect it. I think also as women,
I'm the first to say yes, I'm a people please ask,
like if you're like, oh, Vy, can you give me
a hand?

Speaker 2 (21:54):
Of course I can.

Speaker 3 (21:55):
I'm not going to say no, But like my colleague
he might have said, oh I can do it after
I've finished this report. I wish I had the balls
to say that, and then I didn't, which is why
we need wou GA to come in and kind of
have our backs and go, actually, this is unacceptable. Like
these small things are the big things, and the big
things change lives.

Speaker 2 (22:14):
And so Victoria on that point. I mean, I think
that's probably what we're g is now trying to do
something different because what you've touched on there is the
intersection of some structural things. So the way things have
been particularly in maybe an industry in finance. Let's just
say that that it is obvious, isn't it. It's yeah,

(22:34):
but very sort of. It is quite gendered, and the
results and the data show that. But then there's also
the personal and the individual circumstances and this sort of
social cohesion of if we are falling into roles even
within ourselves. And so I want to urge people, and

(22:56):
particularly women and particularly your co who really can change
the trajectory of their lives right now by thinking about this,
to think about equal Payday as an investment day in themselves.

Speaker 3 (23:08):
Yes, it might seem small because it's only the nineteenth
of August, Ye's Tuesday, and you're in your car driving
to work. You probably weren't thinking about something's dramatic. But
the tiny little things that are going to mean that
ultimately you are wealthier, you are better off, you are
more financially stable, you are even you have better wellness. Yeah,
when we work towards all these things. It's not just like,

(23:30):
oh yeah, she has more in her super she doesn't
care though, Like it's everything, like financial well being impacts
your social you're emotional your financial obviously you're like your
literal well being across the board. And that's what we're
talking about, Like it's not just to be nice to
have few more dollars.

Speaker 2 (23:49):
Hey, that's not it. That's not it. Yeah, And when
you say no to whether it be actually will all
clean up after the morning tea. No, I'm not stacking
the dish wash on my own morning te You probably
had to organize, yes, when you say no to that,
but also to on a day like equal payday where
you actually do go and have a look with Actually

(24:10):
with g We've put together a calculator where you can
actually go and calculate the amount of helpful thank you
but that's so depressing and have a conversation about it,
and then think also about how you're behaving. So when
it does come to things like performance appraisals, when it
does come to things like putting your hand up for

(24:31):
a bonus, when it comes to both men and women
not just stepping away from the workforce to care, but
how they behave and internalize some of those unwritten codes
and words that are absolutely real in organizations to think
about that and try and choose differently. And I think
that's really want and that can messages. It acts really hard.

Speaker 3 (24:52):
So we're not saying, oh, it's so easy, just say no,
like no's a full sentence. That's really challenging, especially if
you've fallen into being that person that your organization relies on. Yep,
like Sam just does it, like she just does it right,
and they're not even thinking about it. They're not thinking
about the impact long term. But long term that's going
to change your life. And you know, I think everything

(25:14):
I do that she's on the money is to empower
women to be more financially stable because money is power.

Speaker 2 (25:20):
When women have power, the entire world changes for the better.

Speaker 3 (25:25):
Like I cannot give you an example of when women
have been given money and they haven't impacted their community positively,
Like what an incredible thing to do. But it all
starts with these days like equal Payday, where you go, well,
what is that, how does that work? What does that
mean for me? And it's not these big grand gestures
of posting on social media or like me getting an

(25:47):
arguments in the comments section where people are saying that
it's not true, it's actually going I don't care what
other people are saying. It's like pushing back from the
things that are happening in your organization, just slowly and
surely that you're on the trajectory that puts you in
the best possible position. And it's not just women, right, So,

(26:07):
Like there's obviously like a number of different factors like
culture and age and disability that I think we should
touch on here as well to keep in mind, because
like there are going to be women in the cars
maybe going to work, or even just some of our
community members who don't work at the moment who are like,
you know, Victoria, I'm disabled, I can't work, but I

(26:28):
love she's on the money, and there are a heap
of them, which I adore.

Speaker 2 (26:31):
But like you two have an impact.

Speaker 3 (26:33):
But what do we need to keep in mind when
it comes to how the gap impacts different cohorts of women?

Speaker 2 (26:39):
And I think this is probably something also for you know,
maybe the CEO's and boards that may be listening to you.
If not, so what we could do about that, like,
you know, to actually be thinking about what that they
call this intersectionality. So it's a really sort of I
guess it's a label that we use when we look
at the intersection of disadvancevantage. And so for this example,

(27:02):
you know, we're thinking about gender pay gaps, and we're
thinking about the disadvantage of women and how they accumulate
that over the life course. So there's a time element
to that. We also look at the multiple disadvantages and
trying to tease out and we're certainly starting to do
this with data, trying to tease out what the impact

(27:23):
of that multiple disadvantage is. Again, it works like compound interest.
So you might be a white woman living in the
city in teaching, and so we would look at that
and go a gender pay gap. If we were to
calculate that for that cohort comes out at a certain
number because you know, you in a teaching industry, your age,
those kinds of things. But if we take that and

(27:44):
think about a woman.

Speaker 3 (27:46):
Of color in a rural and I hate it data,
I hate I hate it because I look at it
and I look at all of our first nations friends, yes,
and I just go what it's even more unfair, Like,
what can I do to support yeah, it's conversations like this.

Speaker 2 (28:02):
It is it is to be really aware. So that's
the first thing, to be aware that actually people do
experience multiple disadvantages and it is again very real and
it does show up in gender pay gaps if you
do start to go through your data at an organization level,
but to understand that there's things like, you know, even rurality,
where you live, how old you are, you know, are

(28:25):
you a woman of color, are you a person living
with a disability. All of these things accumulate and I
call it it's like being pecked to death by a duck.
It sort of is one thing after another after another
that accumulate over the life cause. And this is why
we want people to stop and think about this. And
we also want, you know, the boards and the c

(28:46):
suites and all of our HR and diversity practitioners to
take that pause and think about not just who these
gender pay gaps are impacting and the different cohorts in
their organizations, but importantly what they're going to do about it.
And there's so many easy things that they can do,
even at board level. Talking about a board that had donated,

(29:09):
for example, some money, you know, it was a considerable
sum of money and they'd given it to a football club.
So we sort of unpack that and guess what we
are encouraging them to do is to go, if you
put a gendered lens on that, you would see and
you'd want to trace where those dollars went and on

(29:31):
your website. And this is about the intent and it
is genuine. I don't think it's all performative. It's genuine.
When you're more informed, you can choose better, right.

Speaker 3 (29:39):
Yeah, And it's not about you not doing the right thing.
Sometimes you just if you don't know, Betty, you can't
do better.

Speaker 2 (29:44):
If you don't know. That's exactly right. And so we're
sort of having a look at that and going, if
you put a gendered lens over that and trace that money,
how could you have have spent that money differently, for example,
or in a way that really helped and was equal
in terms of empowering women. So you know, we're the
change rooms there for both the boys and the girls.

(30:07):
What part of it did you put into your community
in encouraging girls to come and play football? What are
the ways in which you could genuinely demonstrate being conscious
of the way that you're giving you're giving this a
great thing to give money into a community. But if
we become more conscious of how we do that, then
we're able to actually stem I guess the tide of

(30:29):
disadvantage and importantly turn the tide to advantage for all.
So that's happening in the workplace, in the community and
their shareholders for example, Yeah want it, and it's a
good thing. It's from our slate.

Speaker 3 (30:41):
We see higher shareholder return when gender equality is taken
into consideration in organizations. So sorry, that's a pretty good
business case to make it a priority. And I have
recently had a few conversations with people to people and
they were like, what the hell am I meant to
just start from scratch and get rid of all my
policies And I'm like, no, but we can just start here,

(31:03):
Like we're not starting from scratch, We're just starting today.
And it's not about getting rid of every single policy
and changing things completely, although I love that. It's actually
about doing what you said, let's just look at one
charitable donation. Where did that go, What does that actually
look like in terms of impact? And how could have
we had more impact. We're not saying don't do what
you did, because like, let's be honest, A charitable donation amazing,

(31:26):
But what could we do to maybe have more impact
to make those dollars go further and actually contribute ultimately
to higher shareholder return? And I think that my time
working in corporate and my time in organizational psychology and
people in culture tells me a lot about you know, ultimately,
to get organizations and the c suite level to care,

(31:48):
we have to go back to things that impact the business.
We have to go back to shareholder return. We have
to talk about shareholder value. I'm sorry the maths mats here,
So why aren't we talking about it more? Because like,
ultimately I can make you more money, I can make
you more popular in society, and everybody wins, Like I think,
and this is a flex for me. My husband's very sexy, right, so,

(32:11):
like he works in like an executive role and he
is always saying this isn't a women's issue, this is
a people issue, and like he's I love it, Like
this is why I married him, because like ten out
of ten, but like he will be the first one
if someone's like, oh, did you want a coffee?

Speaker 2 (32:30):
He's like, why are you asking? Like what's going on.

Speaker 3 (32:33):
I'll get that, and like he tries to step up
and role model those behaviors that are he believes are
typically female in an organization and go, no, you shouldn't
have to do that every time, Like it's nice that
you're offered, but like I'll take all of the teacups
that are bulking up on everybody's desk to the kitchen
and like make a point that it's not meant to
be one person. And I'm obsessed with that. But let's

(32:55):
take a really quick break. Don't go anywhere, guys.

Speaker 2 (33:01):
All right, we are back and.

Speaker 3 (33:02):
We often talk about the gender pay gap, and you know,
on She's on the money, Like it's quite you could
be led to believe that I think this is a
women's issue, and that because it's on a women's podcast,
it's a women's issue. But what are the broader social
and economic consequences of not involving everybody in this conversation

(33:24):
and of essentially not closing the gap, Like why should
everybody become a Steve Yep, love you, Steve. Shout out
to Steve. He doesn't listen to my podcast. He says,
it's really annoying, and that's exactly.

Speaker 2 (33:38):
He's honest. What we want is we want champions, you know,
to to really be you know, just working in a
different way. They don't have to change everything, but it's
about thinking in a different way. And then when we
think about the influence that you've obviously had on him,
and then the education, Oh wait till you meet his mother,

(33:59):
like ah, Like that's where that comes from for sure,
and it's a good thing. And importantly employees want that,
so employees are looking. It gets back to that original
conversation that we had about you know, it's a contractual arrangement.
I show up, I give you my intellectual capital, my time,
my heart, my energy for a certain period of time.

(34:20):
I think now we're starting to see women and men
asking even a job interview level, what's your gender pay gap,
what's the pay rentally of policy those kinds of things.
Now that makes sense when we take a big helicopter
view and think about the economic cost of not doing this,
we might turn to things like having a look at

(34:41):
participation rates for example, GDP growth and those kinds of things.
So a couple of figures, you know, on average, there's
research out there that says eight hundred and ninety eight
million dollars a week is the calculation on lost earnings.
Excuse me, Yeah, that's a lot of hous. What is
so frustrating is you, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (35:03):
Every time we talk about stuff like this on the show,
like my brain just immediately zooms out and thinks about
the bigger picture and how the biggest growing demographic of
people experiencing homelessness is women in their fifties, And most
of that could have been avoided if we'd really cared
about their superannuation, if we'd really cared about their career trajectories.

(35:24):
Because it's all the little things, and like, I can
go and talk to any of those women, and I've
spoken to many of them, and it's all I didn't
know that this is where I was going.

Speaker 2 (35:32):
Like I thought I was doing the right thing.

Speaker 3 (35:34):
No one's going, oh yeah, I made some pretty bad
decisions when it comes to career, and I didn't have
a good one. Like, no, these women have careers, they
have jobs, but like their contributions to superannuation, those bonuses
that bump things up along the way, that's what's suffering
and that's not what's being prioritized, and that ruins our society,

(35:55):
like at a societal level, this is a massive.

Speaker 2 (35:58):
Issue, is at all levels. And I think you know,
even with starting to think about and you hear the
conversation now about productivity, for example, you're thinking about our
growth and our recovery after COVID. Women's participation in the
labor force is one of the best ways that we
can gain momentum on things like productivity. And yet when

(36:22):
we reduce their participation in the workplace to this trope
about choices for example, or decision making, again, try and
lean into these things in a way that is curious
and dispel the myths and increase the understanding. So you know,
one of the ways that I explain that is if
you go to a wedding and they say would you

(36:44):
like the chicken or the beef, and you choose the beef,
you cannot say anything about that person's preferred protein. They
are choosing from constrained choices. So women choosing to go
part time, using to take the lesser job or the
non greedy job, there's all of these decisions that snakes

(37:07):
and ladders game, yes, exactly, and it's sort of and
it's not just what the women's decisions are occurring, But importantly,
what decisions are we offering? And this is the power
of things like gender pay gaps and data and enlightening
the whole range of people that make up an enterprise.
So it's something that the women themselves would do, something

(37:30):
that their managers will do, male or female, it's something
that CEOs and boards will do. We start to have
this wider cumulative effect. But it's not about women's choices
because those choices are ultimately constrained, not just in terms
of stepping away from the workforce for a period of time,
but what happens to them when they step back in.

(37:51):
Now importantly, that's same thing, and I can speak about
this because it's my PhD study. That same thing happens
to men. They reduced their capital and face discrimination in
terms of if they become a primary caregiver. Now that's crazy,
isn't it? Something incredible about what's going on in organizations,

(38:13):
and that is that we have this ideal worker norm
that is full time, no career breaks, always available to
the organization, and anyone that works outside of that framework
is reduced capital. And so that's how gender plays out
in organizations because it's usually the women and do you

(38:34):
know what? It is crazy how that conversation happens.

Speaker 3 (38:37):
And I'm going to talk about my husband a lot here,
because when I had Harvey, my son, eighteen months ago,
my husband was the primary care I had work, I
had stuff to do. He took six months off and
that was the plan, and like we were both really
happy with that. He has a very good career. So
this isn't something where I was like, Oh, you can
afford to take the time off. It was actually just

(38:58):
a conscious decision that he was like, no, I really
want to do that, Like what an opportunity. It wasn't
because we needed needed it. We could have worked it out,
but like he saw that. The conversations that surrounded that
decision to me were insane, like just people going, oh,
your wife.

Speaker 2 (39:15):
Doesn't want to do that. Oh is your wife taking
off any time? What does that look like?

Speaker 3 (39:20):
How are you going to know what to do with
the baby? What are you going to do during What
is going to happen to your career? And they're just
questions and conversations that I just know if I had
worked in a corporate environment and put my hand up
and said hello, I'm having a baby and I'm going
to take six months off. People would have applauded me
for only taking six months instead of twelve r whereas

(39:43):
literal managers of my husband were saying, Oh, what's going
to happen to your career?

Speaker 2 (39:50):
Sorry?

Speaker 3 (39:50):
You don't care about women in the same way like
when men start to do things that you stereotypically think
are women's business, you seem to all of sudden actually
care about their career trajectory or what's going to happen
with your superannuation if you're not contributing for six months?

Speaker 2 (40:07):
Sorry.

Speaker 3 (40:07):
I don't think any corporate entity says that to the
women that are taking twelve months plus off, like oh,
what if you don't want to return?

Speaker 1 (40:16):
What if?

Speaker 3 (40:17):
Like that just frustrated me beyond belief because I just thought, Oh,
that'll be easy, like your parental leave policy. Your workplace
is really good, that's fantastic. But all of a sudden,
it was those additional layers of conversation that we're being
had because it was a surprise that the male in
my relationship was making those decisions. And I think a

(40:38):
lot of people had just assumed that the parental leaf
policy was made to benefit women, but it didn't did it?

Speaker 4 (40:44):
No?

Speaker 2 (40:44):
So it was for me a really eye.

Speaker 3 (40:46):
Opening conversation because thankfully we work in or I work
in finance and I work in this space. And like,
even though this conversation is about women, I wasn't having
my husband be like negatively acted by that. I was like, okay, cool,
so old contribute to super will do this, We'll do that.
Like everything was like exactly how I think most people

(41:07):
should run it. But the conversations that surrounded that pay
gap seemed to take priority because he's a man and
he needs a career, And there really with me insane.

Speaker 2 (41:18):
Yeah, it is. They're so real and tangible. It's such
a great example, and I think that what we're really
trying to do is not I get we're not demonizing
anybody in any normalization. We're not demonizing men, not demonizing women.
You know, there's lots of thing about childless women, and
you know that women don't help other women, Like there's

(41:40):
all of this rhetoric out there, But the fact is
that education, as you know, and enlightenment, is the first step.
And you know, people do things and make decisions that
are often uninformed or they come from a place if
they just don't know better. I mean, you organize ations.
One really profound example was interviewing a couple who had

(42:04):
worked for the same public sector organization. They reduced their
work hours so that they could look after their children
and share the load. So they were trying to do
a shared care arrangement. Now, when the woman put in
her form and spoke to her manager about her preferred options,
it was signed off and that's all good and fine.

(42:25):
When the man put in his form, the very first
thing that the manager said was, so mate, how long
do you want this arrangement form? And I'm interviewing this couple,
and the woman went, no, one would ever has ed,
never asked me that had two kids, and she'd gone
part time. You come back early. Yeah, And so that

(42:48):
just goes to show what sits underneath that policy. That's
the same policy being enacted in the same organization, but
under different leadership circumstances. And that's when we see that
hidden sort of gendered disadvantage because it was assumed that
the father would have a temporary arrange that can't be forever,

(43:10):
but that it can't be are you sure six months?
Because what we could do is four months? And then
you come back part time? Where are those options? When
women put their hand up?

Speaker 3 (43:20):
I think this is what has obviously amplified my passion
in this space because I see that the option exists.
So it's not that you know, this was afforded to
you know, the person you interviewed, or it was afforded
to my husband. Can we please have these overlays When
women put their hand up and say I want to
go on maternity leave, Okay, cool, I'm your manager, love

(43:42):
that for you, But how are we maintaining your career?

Speaker 2 (43:45):
How are we maintaining your superannuation?

Speaker 3 (43:46):
You know what flexible work arrangements could I give you
so that you can return earlier and maybe like come
back at a pacede way as opposed to, oh, well
you can only come back to a full time role.
Because all of us sudden, if I told you that
there was a man in that role, there seems to
be so much more flexibility. And I think that that's
what drives me insane, because we want equal opportunity. I'm

(44:10):
not asking just for what the men have. I just
want to have the same opportunity as them.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
And then if I choose to take another six months
off or take twelve months off or don't return to
the workforce at all. I want that to be because
it was my choice, not because I got offered beef
or chicken and I only had two options to choose from,
and I actually am vegetarian, so I had to actually
opt out of the conversation completely and not have part
time and not have full time because neither of those
things met my criteria. So I just it actually drives

(44:38):
me wild because the deep you dig and you would
have found this, and I'm honestly envious you got to
do a PhD one day.

Speaker 3 (44:44):
One day I will become doctor Divine and I will
do a PhD's area. Actually divine, it sounds good right,
Like I could. I could be a doctor or a
stripper like I've been. Both would work the last.

Speaker 2 (44:56):
Day today you can do, you know what I mean?
Like people already ask me if Divine is my stage name.

Speaker 4 (45:00):
It's not.

Speaker 3 (45:00):
It's my literal family name, but like, imagine doctor Divine. Anyway,
this just grinds my gears in a way that I'm like,
how much more do we have to do to actually
facilitate change? And how do people not see this as
being as important as I'm seeing it like, am I
seeing it from a delusional side of the road because
it just looks like there's a whole heap going on,

(45:21):
and then from the other side of the road you
can see a rainbow. I can't see that right now,
So I think, yeah, for me, it's more about just
equal opportunity, Like it's not necessarily you have to pay
that woman exactly what you pay a man. We already
established at the start of this episode that's actually illegal.

Speaker 2 (45:39):
It's actually putting on the table all of the options,
the options, and expanding those options. I mean, I think
we see a lot of disparity, particularly in pay gaps
at the senior most senior levels. That's actually the biggest
dollar for dollar pay gap once we get up into
that because compounding interest it's like investing. Think you get
the worse it looks. And there's this real sense that

(46:02):
you can only be a leader, say in an organization
working full time. Well that instantly you know many women
would self select out yep of that to guys, we
don't want beef, we don't want chickens. That's right. Sorry,
what about if we actually flipped the script and leanked
into this to go truly all roles are flex and

(46:25):
when we're looking at our leadership programs, we're not necessarily
doing special leadership programs for women, because doesn't that just
say that they've got to make up for something else.
How about we get all the leaders in the room
and help them to provide a gender equal experience across
every little option and the employee life cycle, like flexible

(46:48):
work practices, like recruiting, like paying pay for performance, thinking
about these things in just a more meaningful way. You
don't actually have to do anything except think differently and
then apply those skills in a different way. And I
guess you know, equal pay days a moment to reflect
on that, and we really want to encourage all facets

(47:11):
and areas of the business and the workplace to think
about things differently, not just women having to raise their
voices at work and having to pursue this, but get
informed and then think about it critically and then think
about taking action. And we've got lots of resources that with.

Speaker 3 (47:28):
And I think that's a good example of it's not
just the women's issue, it's everybody's issue. Wi Ja recently
released I would say some pretty eye opening data. So
just specifical ways, but like specifically this year, and I
know you've come very prepared. So for you, what has
stood out the most in the data that's been recently released.

Speaker 2 (47:49):
Yeah, well, I think overall, when we have a look
at the gender pay gap as a trend, what is startling.
It is coming down. So I think that is a
really plus to say it. Yeah, it's a really positive
compounding interest. We want it to see bit faster extrapolate
over time. So this year can take a little bit, yeah, longer,

(48:10):
that's fine. Next year has to be quicker, though, and
I think that we will start to see that. I think,
you know, going back to the legislative changes, we know
that even at the GA data showed a decline, there
is this anticipatory effect of having to report this kind
of data. So, you know, the national gender pay gap
twenty one point as still not great. Let us do

(48:33):
small goals like let's just get it under twenty that
cook and how do we help organizations to learn what's
going to work for them in their organizations to bring
that down, you know, to contribute to that in a
meaningful way, because that's going to be different depending on
where women are working at what levels, in what roles,

(48:54):
how much they're getting paid, who's entering, importantly, who's staying
in your organization or exiting, which is another form of
data that's really powerful. But overall the scorecard has shows
absolute potential. We know that more organizations and this is
the thing that made me excited course for celebration, was
we know more organizations are doing a gender pay gap

(49:18):
analysis as they should. Yes, as they should, and it's
something that that is really increased and increased in focus.
So organizations are attuned to this starting to come on
their radar. What also is important is that we found
that there was an increase in them taking action. So
whilst again you know that policy to walk the absolutely

(49:39):
you can sit there on a shelf in a handbook,
but you actually need to pursue it. And so when
you find out what's happening in your organization through the
gender pay gap, then you need to take action and
importantly take the rightful action. So don't just stick your
ladder on any old wall. You want to make sure
that it's on the right wall, because you know, if
you're climbing up, you don't want to find out you're

(50:00):
on the wrong wall.

Speaker 3 (50:01):
Yeah, one hundred percent, and I feel like that really
ties into the theme that you guys have this year,
which is how does your employer measure up? When's your
equal pay Day? Which I guess encourages all of us
to have a look at our own workplaces. And the
real question I have here is like, how we're in
the car, are we driving to work and we thanking God?

(50:21):
That feels like a very big thing to be doing.
Like how do we individually go about doing that? Because
good rocks and boats like, and that's not what we're
here to do. We're actually here to facilitate positive change,
Like we're not here to get people mad and riled up.

Speaker 2 (50:37):
But how do we actually go about that?

Speaker 3 (50:39):
What should you know, my community be looking for and
just even thinking about, because it's not just about facilitating conversation,
but like thoughtful narratives that we can consider ourselves and go, oh,
how does that work? What does that look like?

Speaker 2 (50:54):
Like? What can we do? What are we looking for?
And what can we actually do once we find a
little bit of data? Yeah, great question. I guess there's
two responses to that. Well, the first thing on equal Payday,
if you are listening to this and you're driving to work,
when you get to work. Log onto the wigeal website,
have a look at the gender pay gap calculator and

(51:16):
find out what is the number of days for your
organization based on their gender pay gap, which is all
there on the data explorer on the wigeal website. Confronting
and have it.

Speaker 3 (51:28):
Also, really use a friendly website so there's no experience,
not true esthetic, very easy to find.

Speaker 2 (51:33):
Go for it.

Speaker 3 (51:33):
We'll put the link to that in the show notes
as well, because I'm going to do nothing. If make
it easy as hell for you to do that, We'll
see you'll be on there all the time. We're old
down a bit. Yeah, it's not even my organization.

Speaker 2 (51:45):
I'm picking up.

Speaker 3 (51:46):
I'm just snooping other people being like or they do oh,
I like drive past a billboard and I'm like, what
do they do?

Speaker 2 (51:52):
So creepy? I love it.

Speaker 4 (51:54):
I think in.

Speaker 2 (51:54):
General the community now are calling for this, and then
they see the connections between a gender pay gap, for example,
and thinking about retiring and retiring into poverty, superannuation, those
kinds of things. So take the time today to go
and have a look what is your organization's gender pay gap.
Go and have a look what they've got on their website,

(52:15):
and then I guess start those conversations about the myths
around the gender pay gap, and we cover those off
early on about it so not equal pay for equal work.
It's actually a total remuneration calculation that considers the whole
person's life, cause, trajectory, and thinks about discretionary pay, superannuation,

(52:37):
access to overtime, those kinds of things.

Speaker 3 (52:39):
And the wi Gia website has like a whole section
of how to answer those questions as well, because one
of the things that you know, when I first started
learning about this space, people would say, oh, but that's illegal,
and I kind of go, oh, that's taken me off guard. Well,
I don't know how to respond Tonight, they have all
the responses and they're kind of borderline whishy, which I

(53:00):
really like. Also on my social media today, I'm going
to be sharing a lot of the responses to those
questions because I just think that we need to get
past the fact that it doesn't exist.

Speaker 2 (53:11):
We know it exists.

Speaker 3 (53:12):
Here's how to dismiss that conversation really quickly and then
turn it into a positive interaction as opposed to it. No,
it's not really like we just don't need that conversation
and kind of dismiss it and move on and actually
be really productive because I will argue till the cows
come home. It is in my nature. Like I don't
know how to get rid of it. I'm so sorry,
but like it's an acid.

Speaker 2 (53:33):
Look, I'm going to try to be less defensive.

Speaker 3 (53:36):
Acknowledged Great, that's actually a misconception, and moving forward. This
is what it looks like and this is how you
can contribute. And I think that that's really powerful as well.

Speaker 2 (53:45):
Yeah, and I think we do. We need all kinds
of voices, and we need not just women, but we
need men here as well. I mean again, be like Steve,
yes me, Steve, don't we get a T shirt?

Speaker 3 (53:55):
Goes be the sea more like Steppe would be mortified
as somebody who doesn't like social media, doesn't like to
be is like your podcast gives me the ick. I
could never listen to it, like proud of what you do, babe,
but like like your voice on repeat, I already married you.

Speaker 2 (54:10):
I get it. I get it. But like be like Steve,
but happy and women. He's going about it in terms
of actions and so in his own quiet way, and
that can happen in organizations, and there's certainly opportunities to
do those. And again on the website, we talk about strategy,
we talk about action planning, we talk about a whole
range of things from board level all the way down

(54:31):
to line manager level, and you're able to be able
to find some really useful resources. My team actually run
master classes on a whole range of things. How to
calculate a gender pay gap, how to do a responsive
action plan, obsessed, how do you design a job so
that it can be a part time or job share?

(54:52):
These kinds of things. As you know, knowledge is power,
So the more knowledge that you have, the more power
you have, not just to I guess, bring that into
your organization, but importantly thinking about those little decisions that
the women themselves are attempting to make in that constrained environment,
and to become informed about that. Why would you want

(55:14):
to select out of a job because it looks greedy?
Why would you want to not put your hand up
for a role or a promotion or apply for that job,
throw your hat in the ring, ask them for job share.
Start to think about things in a very very different way,
and I guess what would you what we're trying to

(55:35):
do is help organizations to be able to receive that
ball so that when women are saying, actually, I wouldn't
mind being that executive leader of something other than HR
or sales and marketing, but I would like that you know,
profit and lost portfolio, Thank you very much, or I
will take that seat as the chair of the board

(55:56):
that we're helping. I guess firtile create to ground for
that within organizations by building their capability to be able
to catch that ball. So obsessed.

Speaker 3 (56:06):
It makes me so excited just knowing that you are
facilitating this as well, because there's one thing to have
a government organization that's like, yeah, we prioritize this, but
like the team inside who are not just doing the
work but like art champions for women and as obsessed
with this topic as I am. Just means that I

(56:28):
know that things are moving like you are actually facilitating
positive change.

Speaker 1 (56:34):
Now.

Speaker 3 (56:34):
I know we're running out of time very quickly, which
is very sad. But if you and I were to
sit down, Sam and have this conversation again in five years,
what would you hope looks different. I would hope that
the gender pay gap has come down. I predict that
it will.

Speaker 2 (56:55):
I think I predict it too if we poor enough
optimism into this. Absolutely, and I'd really like to see
the gender pay gap come down at a national level.
And I would also like that to happen at the
industry level as well, that industries are coming together in
a more less competitive sense. And of course there's obviously
business is business. You have to make a profit, but

(57:17):
there are things that they can do collectively as an
industry start to help and gain momentum. I think construction
is a really good example at the moment who are
really trying to pipeline more women into their industry and
then also make it more safe and equal when they
get there. So I'd really like to see a lot
more constructive coming together of those communities at the industry level.

(57:41):
I think the other thing that I would really like
to see is this understanding that we are not in
the same environment anymore. That there is I demand both
legislatively but also from shareholders, from investors, from communities, from
employees that actually is saying we require a gender equal

(58:02):
experience and we want to find out if we're going
to get that in your organization, and how are you
going to provide that? And to see more of the
people who make those decisions across all of what I
call the coalition of influence. That's the boards and the
C suites, HR and U, diversity practitioners in organizations, and
your line managers all coming together. Educate themselves, get literate.

(58:26):
You talk about financial literacy, I want everyone being gender
equality literate, understanding how pay gap is calculated, what drives it,
and how you can change it. At a very basic level.
If in five years time we can be sitting here
having that conversation, I would be absolutely beside myself.

Speaker 3 (58:46):
And I will be I'm going to do that in
ours maybe not even five years, like let's just do
a check in every year.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
I'm obsessed with it.

Speaker 3 (58:52):
I feel like it's a narrative that I'm seeing in
our community as well, which makes me really excited, even
on an individual level, when people are, you know, talking
about their investing journey, for example, they are literally looking
for organizations who champion this. They are looking for organizations
who you know, we talk about ethical investing, we talk
about ESG investing, and a part of that ESG conversation

(59:16):
is gender and I just see so much more of
our community really prioritizing looking into that and going does
that company do that, because I don't want to invest
if not. And I think that those small things as well,
just on an individual level, whether you were employed by
these organizations or not, decisions around that can really impact
the big picture as well, because we know that companies,

(59:37):
all the research tells us the companies that champion this
and prioritize this have high a shareholder return. So ultimately,
I know you said it's about business, but business is
better when women are in.

Speaker 2 (59:47):
Power one hundred and even just on that superfront. On
a closing argument, one of the things that I learned
very early on in my career was a woman, Carol Schwartz,
who is a philanthropist and an absolute gun in terms
of gender equality and thinking more intelligently about how we

(01:00:09):
create change. She said at this one forum that I
was in, every woman who holds a super account has
to think like an investor. You are an investor. You
are go and ask how your superannuation is being invested
if you do nothing else, And it was many pawing moment.
It's free.

Speaker 3 (01:00:29):
You can go and do that today, and by the way,
it'll probably put you in a way better off position
in retirement. Even if you aren't making extra contributions. And
I mean we're in the middle of a cost of
living crisis. We all want a good money when yes,
and are they doing it in an ethical way? There
is such a thing as gender lens investing. There are
superannuation funds out there are a whole ETFs that prioritize it,

(01:00:50):
like there is one ETF on the AX at the
moment that is only made up of companies that have
women on the boards.

Speaker 2 (01:00:57):
Yes, sorry, slagh Love, and i'd meaning exactly the point
that you made. It's not just about the business, it's
actually about thinking about it in a holistic way. And
we are investors. We have our hard earned superannuation, you know,
and we should be pursuing that and we should be
understanding how that's being invested and to do that in

(01:01:18):
a way that amplifies gender equality and a more equal
experience for women's girls everywhere. Thank you so much for
joining us.

Speaker 3 (01:01:27):
This has been an exciting, empowering, a little bit frustrating,
but like very good conversation. I feel like I am
very excited for the rest of today and what is
going to come over the next twelve months. O Jia
are doing a lot of good work in a lot
of good spaces, so or make sure to pop all
of their information in the show notes. You guys can
go and have a little bit of a sticky beak

(01:01:48):
or even maybe a little sticky beak if you want
to look into your own workplace and what that looks like,
So make sure you've got access to that. And maybe
you could even start a few important conversations while you're
a work today. If not, maybe in your group chats
with your girlfriends.

Speaker 2 (01:02:03):
So thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (01:02:04):
I have appreciated this so much, and we will see
you guys literally tomorrow on Wednesday for another episode, and
then again on Friday.

Speaker 4 (01:02:11):
Bye.

Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
Thank you.

Speaker 4 (01:02:18):
The advice shared on She's on the Money is general
in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She's
on the Money exists purely for educational purposes and should
not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision.
If you do choose to buy a financial product, read
the PDS TMD and obtain appropriate financial.

Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
Advice tailored towards your needs.

Speaker 4 (01:02:39):
Victoria Divine and She's on the Money are authorized representatives
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