June 16, 2025 • 30 mins
On the show today the Logie nominations for 2025 have been released and there’s a lot to be excited about. But looking at the Gold Logie nominee list, there’s one very famous name we’d rather didn’t win.
And Aussie influencer Indy Clinton hired a private investigator to track down the the people who were tormenting her online, and she’s shared some pretty harrowing details about what happened.
At the same time, the leader of a gossip site that thrives in Australia has been unmasked, and the fallout for famous Aussies could be huge.
LISTEN
Can't get enough Logies chat? Have a laugh at our Brutally Honest Review of last year's awards.
Love the latest influencer news? Listen to The Influencer Breakup We All Saw Coming
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
So much.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and borders
that this podcast is recorded on Just.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
A quick heads up, this episode of The Spill mentions
suicide and self harm and some bullying, so please take
care when listening and if you or someone you know
needs to speak to someone, Lifeline's number is thirteen eleven fourteen.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
From Mamma Mia.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Welcome to The Spill, your daily pop culture fixed.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
I'm Laura Brodneck.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
And I'm Taylor Strano. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Back, love having here, fling in from the Quickie. Bit
of a dual news day for you.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Yeah, it's always a big day on the Quickie, but
it's always an extra special day when I get to
come and hang out with you Spill.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
We love that and that's all we have time. But
I'm drinking. I just ended it there.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Coming up on the show today, we are talking about
a huge news story that was I think across everyone's
different social media feeds over the weekend. A very well
known influencer hiring a private investigator to take on her
trolls and the mastermind, I guess you could call it
behind a huge gossip site that is also very prevalent
in Australia being unmasked. There was so much happening here.
(01:21):
There's such a huge backstory we're going to take you through.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
But first, but first, let's start.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
With some happy news.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Laura, Yeah, this is great. I freaking love the Logis.
I'm not even embarrassed about it.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
No, why would you be.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
The Logi nominations have just been announced. They came out
this morning. It is Australia TV and Film Industries Night
of Nights. That's where we get to celebrate and reflect
upon all the great television that's been made down Under
for the last twelve months or so. And the headline women.
They have dominated the nominations list, particularly the Golden Logi,
(01:56):
so the top gong. As we know, Larry Emda won
it last year, but this year the category is stacked
with a list of female nominees. Six women, Ali Langdon,
Julia Morris, Lisa Miller, Sonya Krueger, Poling Yao and Lynn McGranger.
And one man, of course, Hamish Blake found his way
to the man in there. He's got to be in there,
and we're happy because he's great as well. But really
(02:18):
nice to see so many women in the list this year.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Yeah, especially because with the Gold Logi only three women
have won it in the past fifteen years. They've won
it a few times in the owner row some of them,
so you know that's a little caveaut there. But the
last fifteen years the only women to have won the
Gold Logie are Sonya Krueger, Carrie Bigmore and Ashaketty. So
it does feel like this year we might see someone
sneaking it's on. I was watching all the coverage from
(02:41):
the announcement event today and news dot Com was talking
to Hamish Blake afterwards being like, how does it feel
to be the only guy nominated the Gold Logi? And
he was basically like, does feel like a little bit
of a stitch because he's like, how terrible would it
be if I won?
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Oh, he can't win, No, he can't win.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
But also he's got such a massive fan base and
now that he said that, like Australian notoriously like loves
a good joke.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
And of course the Gold Logi is voted by the publish.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
So you have some like the Graham Kennedy Award and
some of the talent awards that are industry vote, but
it's mostly voted.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
By the people.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
I don't know if you've got a favorite who you'd
love to win from that list, but I'm like Lynn McGranger.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Okay, I was gonna say it's got to be Lynn, right,
thirty three years on Home and Away, I looked her up.
I feel like Lynn deserves her flowers. Although I also
just love Poe. I don't know if you listened or
not recently, Laura, but she was on No Fill to
one of the other Mum of Mere podcasts with Kate Langbrook,
and she's just had this incredible life and it's just
such a like warm, lovely human being and she just
(03:39):
deserves all of the logis.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Yes, and she's been like such a constant source in
the Australian entertainment industry for so many years, which I
think this logi is supposed to be meant to be
like for all the years we've been on TV, not
just for like something you might have done this year,
as is some of the other logis are. So I
feel like Lynn or Poe would definitely be the kind
of standouts and someone very unexpected because they haven't been
in the race before with Lynn. I've got to say
(04:03):
I interview a lot of celebrities, like megastars, and there's
only a handful of people I've been really star struck by.
Lynn McGranger was in the Mummere office one she came
into that show Quizish.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
That we used to have. Irene did it for you? Yeah, yeah,
it was.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
It was I turned a corner in the old Mumma
Mer office, you know, we had that long corridor and
it was eight in Nicodemu and Lynn McGranger from Home
and Away. And because I had like been obsessively watching
Home and Away all through my childhood and teen years,
I saw them and I just panicked and I ran
away and I hid in that little old that closet
next to them because I was like, I didn't want
to interact with them. Yeah, of course, yeah, because I
(04:37):
was like, I was so starstruck, Like I could see
an A list like movie star and that would be fine,
but not not Irene from Home and Away.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
I feel like this is the wrong time to tell
you that I was a neighbours girl growing up.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Oh I mean, look, not gonna judge you for that.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
I also went through a few neighbours stints, okay, but
like Home and Away like that was my diehard. I
probably shouldn't have been watching it as a small child,
but we just did things like that.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
It was on TV.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
I remember that was when I when like one of
the characters, like Selena was pregnant and saying to my
mum is a six year old.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Like what does that mean? She was like, oh, don't worry.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
So that's how we were raised by neighbors and Home
and Away of course, and I feel like we need
to go back to giving them all the logies because
that's how it.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Used to go. Yeah, we need a full circle moment
in TV.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Lots of other awards, of course that make up the logis,
though they're silver, not goal just FYI, the Burt Newton
Award for Most Popular Presenter. And now this again is
a stacked list. Hamish Blake finding his way onto this
list as well, which makes sense. He hosts a lot
of great stuff.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
He can win that one. I'll allow it.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Julia Morris as well, Ricky Lee, Sonya Krueger to Todd Woodbridge.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
And Zan Rowe.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
I know who my favorite in that list?
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Oh wait, I think we are the same, shall we
say at the same time, I'm scared now all right?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Went two? Three?
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Zan row okay, great?
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Who always I lost your neighbors. We came back around
we as Androe Fangels on this podcast. And then of
course the.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
Graham Kennedy Award for Most Popular New Talent, which is
a really interesting award because I feel like this really
sets people up to have long and during careers in
Australian media. I think of people like Tony Armstrong obviously.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Who is so beloved.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Some really great names this list, Guy Montgomery of course
Guy Mont's spelling be on the ABC. Jenny Tan who
is just like wonderful and so hilarious. Yes, Kyler Day,
Sophia Levin and Haley Pinto and Kate Miller Hideke as well.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Oh, a new fresh face we've never heard of before,
but I guess you know, because she's won so many
music awards.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Sure it's for being on the Voice. Yeah, she's one
of the judges.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Yes, yes, yes, it was all the different musical shows.
A score in my heages then, but I'm like, yeah,
it's definitely the voice. It's definitely the voice. So we'll
see what comes of that.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
The full list of all the LOGI nominees is actually
out on the Muma Mere website right now, so you
can go there and have a look. And of course
the logis are happening on Sunday August three at the
Star here in Sydney.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Nice to be back close for you. Or it's not
big commute?
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Yeah, no, I love that. That's why I look for
on the logis. Is not a big commute time.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
You'll be there right well?
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Yes, yes, probably on the red carpet. Not so much
in the room unless I can invite it back into
the room.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
I've been there before. We'll see.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Stay tuned for that cliffhanger. Okay, moving on to a
big story that consumed a lot of people over the weekend.
Or whether you have a huge social media following or
you're just a nobody on the internet like me, everyone
was talking about this and that is the fact that
Indy Clinton, who is one of Australia's biggest TikTok stars,
entrepreneur a huge kind of face in the online media landscape,
(07:26):
gave an interview to the Daily Telegraph and also put
out a statement saying that she had hired a professional
pi to look into a number of people who had
been trolling, harassing her and defaming her online over the years.
So she said to the Daily Telegraph that she had,
along with the help of this professional team, that the
cyber bullies who had been harassing her for years had
been identified and then she was able to take legal
(07:49):
action to hold them accountable. And she went on to
say to the Daily Telegraph that some of the defamatory
things which had been said about her in recent years
were extremely distressing. And then she wented to sort of
talk about what could happen if this sort of behavior
continued with people who were living in the public eye,
and she said, lives have been taken for me a
few months ago.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
What I endured was life or death.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
So she was talking about the fact there if you
saw this at the time, that she had some plastic
surgery and she shared that online and the trolling and
it's like the really public backlash and she was getting
really violent messages about it was such a huge thing
that really consumed anyone who followed her for a while.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Oh absolutely, I mean, when anybody puts anything online, they
are making a conscious choice that it is open to
the public opinion forum. However, that does not mean that
you are inviting violent, threatening messages that make you feel
potentially unsafe even in your own home or community.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
And previously people have just been told there's something you
can do because it's anonymous, it's online. It wasn't something
you could really take action against someone sending you comments.
I know that a lot of influencers in the past
said that when this has happened to them, or influencers
or media personalities, when something like this has happened to them,
they have contacted the police, and often all they've been
told is they have to wait for action to be
(09:05):
taken or they need more proof. It can't just be
a comment online. But that's starting to change. And what
Indy Clinton said is that she had sort of just
had enough. She'd hire these professionals, and then she was
able to take some legal action because she had tracked ipeaddresses,
tracked real names, all those sorts of things.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
It's a really bold move and a really brave move
to take, and then to talk about it publicly on
your platform, be like, hey, I see you, and I've
stopped ignoring you, and I'm actually going to take a
stand against this. Now we don't know what is to
come of this sixty four page report. Yes that India
has been handed and we don't even know what's in
that report. We just know that it's something that is
(09:43):
now in her possession. But the fact that she's gone, hey,
I know you think you're anonymous. And by the way,
anybody who puts anything online anymore, if you think that
you're anonymous, you are absolutely kidding yourself. Even if you
post under your own name. Nothing has gone from the
Internet forever.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
We know that now, yes, exactly.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
So why people still continue to put hateful or dangerous
or scary things on the Internet completely baffles met.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
And that's the tagline I saw so many people sharing,
and not just people that I follow who are really
in the public eye, but even just people who are
active on socials but don't have a huge account. I've
seen so many people sharing that over the weekend, that
no one is anonymous, which I think has been the
turning point is that this sixty four page report that
she has with like contact names of people, like home
(10:31):
addresses where they work, all those sorts of things. Once
you find out who's behind these accounts, people's identity is
very traceable.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Absolutely, and I think for a lot of people this
might be their first time seeing someone really big that
they follow actually dealing with these trolls head on. But
as we know, Laura, this is not the first example
of somebody receiving online hate and then actually doing something
about it. This actually goes back to basically for as
long as people, usually women in particular, have posted anything
(11:01):
online or have been a public presence. I think about
people like Aaron Mollin, for instance, who is a journalist
and a reporter who spoke on sixty Minutes actually about
what she has done to help stamp out this hate.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
This is not about some little girl who wants to
go on Instagram and get likes and post a selfie.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
That's ridiculous.
Speaker 4 (11:22):
This is about being able to do something that everyone
else in this country does, which is be online and
not having to be subjected to vile, threatening, intimidating abuse
nobody deserves.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
I don't care who you are, so you know.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Some really strong words from Marion mLAN there, and who knows,
maybe this will help to set a prisoner and really
make people reconsider what it is that they're doing when
they post something hateful or scary online. The other example, Lauren,
and I know that you were definitely working around the
media when this happened is when Charlotte Dawson confronted her troll.
Of course, for people who don't remember, Charlotte Dawson was
(11:55):
this extremely high profile Australian TV personality, She was a model,
and she became this advocate against cyberbullying after she experienced
her own online harassment. It was, like most online harassment,
extremely intense for a woman of such public stature. She
was the target of this coordinated campaign of abuse on
social media, particularly on Twitter. People were sending her these
(12:16):
really awful messages urging her to inflict.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Harm upon herself.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
And then it actually all came out in the wash
and she actually, you know, confronted a couple of the
people who were behind all of this trolling online.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
I suppose the first thing I want to say is,
because I'm face to face with you, thesite around said,
how do you feel? I said, by the fact that
you know, I do say a lot of things that
are very nice.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Where does that come from? Doesn't come from anywhere in particular,
It just comes Do you think that people like Charlotte
should have to just cop.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Whenever you put out there, I think that you know,
being in the public eye, you are going to get
abused again. A little bit more confident on the internet's
fair game. If they put themselves out in the media,
I think they should be prepared the.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Cops and slack.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
I can understand why some people would think that was disrespectful.
Speaker 4 (13:04):
However, me, I have a very very dulled sense of
what is disrepectful and what isn't because I'm just desensitized
to her, and that's what the why is.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Yeah, I mean I remember that being confronting at the time,
but I think with the way that that situation has
escalated is even more confronting to hear now to people
say like, it's not real life. And also that idea
of what Charlotte was saying about how these people say
these things online, but at the same time she's like,
but you wouldn't turn around to me when you're staring
at me here right now and say those things. I
(13:33):
think it is the line for a lot of people
in terms of the idea that they think that words
online and then what they would say to a real
person are two different worlds. But when you're the person
who's at the center of that online and getting that abuse.
It's a completely different story. And also for someone like
Charlotte Dawson too, there's the added thing of her being
like such a recognizable face when all this was happening.
(13:54):
So not only is she having all these people come
for her online and these like very coordinated attacks, then
because she's a public face, then outlets start reporting on it,
they bring more eyes on it. It's like an escalating
situation where then people see that and then they go
and join the trolls. It's always like this like eating
itself kind of media cycle that can then take off.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Oh, it's like a self fulfilling prophecy. And during that
whole period of time, there still has to be a
level of self preservation, like she still has to show
up to work and she still has to be the
Charlotte Dawson that we've all become accustomed to seeing in
public life. And then, of course Laura nobody ever wants
to talk about the extreme cases, but unfortunately Charlotte Dawson
is one of those really really sad cases that in
(14:36):
twenty fourteen, she did end up taking her own life,
largely as a result of all of this online trolling
and hate, and it does go to show that if
continually pushed and if continually harassed, anybody can fall victim
to it. In that way, nobody is above it and
nobody is below it. So when it ranges from such
extreme cases and examples like Charlotte Dawson's death all the
(14:58):
way down to Indy Clinton's sixty four page report, it's
so important to remember that you are a person behind
that keyboard who you're putting your hate out into the world.
You're not anonymous, just as on the other end, the
person received that is also just a human being.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Oh absolutely, And I think talking about Charlotte's death because
she was beloved by so many people, can be really difficult.
But I also think it's just it is important in
this conversation to always bring up her name and bring
up what she said, just because she devoted so much
of her life to pushing against bullying and online behavior.
And I do think that things like meeting her trolls
or giving all these interviews about it, I do think
(15:33):
that did move the dial a little bit. Even if
she just stopped a handful of people who attacked her
from then jumping online and doing it to other people.
That's a huge change that she enacted through her life.
So I do think that's important to bring up, Nana.
What's really interesting about this is that we have these
two kind of huge stories around online behavior and well
known figures and celebrity. Is kind of culminating in the
(15:53):
last couple of days because alongside Indian Clinton talking about
hiring this private investigator, not releasing all the details of
the sixty four page report, but sort of taking people
through house she did it and starting a huge conversation,
we also had another big story take place in that area,
and that is the founder of are very How do
you describe Tattle?
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Well, I'm hoping you tell me.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
No.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
I mean, unfortunately I can tell you and look for
anyone out there who listening who doesn't know what title is.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
God bless you.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
You live a charmed life and you should stay there
ignorance and don't go into these dark corners of the internet.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Ignorance is bliss. However, we are here to corrupt that
ignorance right now.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Yes, Well, I should say I've been really careful not
to mention tattle on the spill. I know a lot
of people don't mention sites like that because you don't
want to drive people towards them. Because this has blown
up as a big news story over the weekend, and
especially because and so many influencers who are mentioned on
tatle a lot have their own tittle threads have been
sharing it. I think it's really in the public domain
(16:51):
now and it's not okay to talk about it. But
the more we talk about it, hopefully the more it
kind of shines a light and potentially it'll get shut down.
So title is an online gossip forum active in many, many,
very countries, and the idea is that you have these
different threads and pages about specific people or places. You
have to have a certain number of followers who on
likec with social media accounts to have an account made
(17:14):
about you, So like, you can't just go and make
an account about like a random person with like two
hundred followers. It has to be someone who's in the
public eye. Not that that's an excuse for anything, but
that's what the idea is. Okay, And on these forums,
so many people I believe you have to like, I
think anyone can view it. Well, I know anyone can
deal it because I've looked at it, and I'm definitely
not a member, but I think it is invite only,
(17:35):
like someone has to send you a code to access.
Already hating out, Yeah, it is something to hate that.
That's the correct emotion, just because it's it's so organized,
and it's so who has this much energy to be
so oh no, wait, we haven't even got to that
stage yet. There's a lot to say about that situation,
about the energy, because for a lot of people, this
is you know, everyone has a third place for a
(17:57):
lot of people, unfortunately, a lot of people have Homework
and Tattle and like virtual third place, and the idea
is that you go on there and basically bitch and
complain and share intel about these public figures in this place.
But everyone there has like a fake name, a fake hitcher.
It's all been very mysterious, and for a long time
(18:18):
people have been like people have tried to shut it
down many times, and well known people who have had
really intense threads about themselves and their families and their
businesses have tried to take legal action and it hasn't
really gone ahead. And recently the person behind it all
who started Tattle, which is now a worldwide situation, has
(18:39):
been unmasked as Sebastian Bond, who also goes by the
alias Bastian Durwood. So Sebastian Bond is a UK citizen.
He's also the creator behind the plant based recipe brand
Nest and Glow, which I'm sure he doesn't want those
two things said in the same situation. But this is
the situation that Sebastian has created for himself. So he's
(19:01):
been operating Tattle under a false name, which is Helen McDougall,
and he was using companies in Hong Kong and the
UK to obscure his idea, entity and income from this.
So people have been trying to find this person for many, many,
many years, and the reasons that it's happened is because
of a landmark legal case that was brought about by
Neil and Donna San. So they are an Irish couple
(19:23):
who were targeted by a forty five page thread on
Tattle that the court documents from this case described as
a calculated exercise of extreme cynicism and serious harassment. The
couple was awarded damages of three hundred thousand pounds And
this is also interesting, over one million dollars in assets
linked to tattle Life's advertising revenue were frozen. So tattle
(19:45):
Life doesn't do sponsored content, but there are like ads
like those Google ads do pop up in there.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Who is making to advertise on this website?
Speaker 1 (19:54):
No, I don't think it's like they sell space like
they or they sell like advertising generator.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Yeah, like when you go on the.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Different feeds, ads will pop up that circulate the Internet,
so they'd be making revenue. And because there's millions of
people on this site all the time, they'd be getting
a lot of eyes on there, which is again just
a huge part of it, the fact that it's become
this huge thing, it's had these real life consequences, and
he's making a lot of money off it. So if
a court actually lifted reporting restrictions on Bond's identity just
(20:22):
in June of this year, saying that his reckless conduct
and his attempts to evade enforcement of UK court decisions
had led to that, and basically this is what people
have been really chasing since twenty eighteen.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
So if you're want of.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Those people who sort of across this terrible world, which
unfortunately a lot of really well known people are, because
they just can't you know, they even if they don't
go and look at it, they're very aware it's happening.
This is a huge landmark case of having a face
and a name and court restrictions against this person.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
It's so interesting, right, Laura, because I look at those
names of that couple who were really the undoing of
tattle life. I have no idea who those people are, yeah,
which I think is really telling of like we will
basically just read hateful stuff about anybody.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Oh, there are millions of tattle threads, and can I
say it's not a sight I frequent at all, and
thank god I'm a nobody, so like I'm not on
there or if I don't even know how my name
would brought up if it is, like there's you know,
notions of it, so that's kind of like a safety net.
But I did find out about it a couple of
years ago because a couple of well known people that
I follow were posting about it and talking about this
(21:29):
kind of like horrific site that was happening, and I
was like, what the hell is this? And honestly my
mind was quite blown by the existence of these threads.
It's interesting because a lot of different well known people
have talked about it, And it was only the last
few months that Steph Claire Smith, who is the co
owner of Kick and a very public figure with over
a million followers, was talking about Tattle on her Instagram
(21:51):
stories and saying that her husband Josh didn't know it
existed and when he found out, he was just so
genuinely shocked that people were talking about him, talking about
their family, talking about their kids, and just couldn't.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Like just the shock he had.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
I was like, yeah, that is the correct response to
finding out that these things.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Well, it's shocked as well, because it's that thing of
you have absolutely no control over that at all. People
can just get on there like the wild West and
say whatever the heck they want, true or not, because
let's be real, I don't think there's a fact checking
section of Tattle.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
No.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
I don't think that's in the budget for them personally.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
No, no, no, I can't say I've ever seen that.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
What I do want to commend this Northern Irish couple
on is the fact that they've been able to pursue
this legal course of action and now we have this
man's name, Bastard or Bastian, what was his name?
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Yeah, it Sebastian is like his code name.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
I like Bastard better personally. But of course, let us
not forget the only reason that we do now know
who this man is is because they were in a
position which is incredibly wealthy to be able to pursue
the legal action.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
And a lot of people, even.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Though they may appear online and they may appear of
being this high status so high earning or celebrity or influencer,
that doesn't necessarily mean that they have the financial means
to pursue the action that this couple have done. Oh absolutely,
So even when you're reading this, I feel like sometimes
when we read gossip about celebrities and we're like, oh,
they're so far away, there's another layer of otherness to them. Yeah,
(23:23):
But when it comes to these websites that are so
hate filled, and it's people who are influencers, but they
are also just somebody that you could see down local supermarket,
I'm always taken soa back by that. So I'm really
glad for those people who are maybe on the lower
end of that scale, and celebrities as well, they're also
just people that this is all starting to come down
around this mat.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Oh one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
And also just because you have twenty thousand followers on Instagram,
which I think is around the number of people you
have to have in order for Tattle to make a
thread about you. It doesn't mean that you have a
huge amount of wealth from that, like you could not
have the means to do it. And also what I
find interesting is that kind of diving. And again I
haven't spent a lot of time on Tattle, but I
have like delved into a few threads over the years,
(24:05):
particularly if some public figure has spoken about it, which
is unfortunately that line that people have to walk on.
A lot of public figures have said this over the years,
is that they sometimes want to speak out against it
and sort of push back on it. But then if
you do that, you also run the risk of pushing
more people towards looking at the thread and it blowing up.
So it's that sort of back and forth situation.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
Well, even Muma Mia, we have had to walk that
type rope as individuals at the company, but also as
the company a whole. We have been drawn into and
our name has been thrown across a lot of stories
like that, even in recent memory. How does something like
tittle differ to something that's super popular like dumoir. Where's
the line there?
Speaker 2 (24:45):
I think with Dumoi, I.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Mean again, that was another thing of someone being unmasked
who was the founder of that. But I think that
still has a lot of protocols around it because that
does have a site, like dumin has advertising partners. At
the end of the day, people do know the woman
behind that. She's also like she's out there writing books,
releasing a podcast, and she's also like the person who
runs dumoin is in contact with a lot of different
celebrities and pr so I think there's a lot more
(25:08):
accountability there that Yes, she posts a bit of gossip
and spot it on the street, all those sorts of things,
but always with a big disclaimer of this hasn't been
fact checked, this was a sent in rumor. But I
do think that it would be much easier to hold
her to account because at the end of the day,
we know who she is, whereas these tattle threads can
just go and like you know, also the same thing
(25:29):
of people making anonymous accounts to post on TikTok or
Twitter or Instagram, a lot harder to hold them to
account and fact check it. And the weird thing is
is that this is one of the reasons, actually, to
be honest, why I've looked at tattle sometimes in the
past and why I've gone deep in some threads is yes,
they're horrifically mean, and some people say that they're to
hold people to account, but it's like it's an anonymous forum,
(25:50):
so how are you holding them to account? And the
idea is also that they shouldn't look at it. So
if you really had an issue with something an influencer
have said, like you think they've given bad health advice
or something like that, Like you could just also send
them a well crafted email and be like, hey, this
is the teacher that you can send it that way, yeah,
Or you can report to Instagram guidelines and stuff like.
There's a lot of different things. I just don't think
(26:12):
holding someone into account is something that's going to happen
on an anonymous thread. But what I found really fascinating,
and I think speaks to this weird place where at
the moment with internet culture and our relationship to celebrities,
is that people have formed like little communities on there,
like they'll check in with each other at the beginning
of the day when they like jump back on their thread.
They'll go back and forth, they'll like have little jokes,
(26:34):
they'll say good night to each other. They'll like around
Christmas time, which I think like I jumped on one year
because something was happening. I was looking at some tattle
threads that were like Merry Christmas, like fellow tattle taddlers
like oh and like oh yeah, I hope everyone had
a good New Year and stuff, which is I just
find that bizarre behavior. It's like these people are so
desperate for some sort of community and belonging, and obviously
(26:56):
we're all very kind of like there's a lot of
loneliness going around. People feel very othered, like you might
be working from home and stuff, and instead of going
out and like finding community somewhere else, they're finding it
in these forums with a shared kind of hatred of
online people.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
Hate is not a good foundation for friendship. It is
ultimately leading you down the path to mutual assured self destruction. Eventually,
something will blow up and somebody will not agree with
somebody in one of these threads, and.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
All hell will break loose.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Oh yeh yeah, exactly. No, No, I don't recommend going there
to find friends. And I also don't think that anyone
joins these threads for that reason. I think it was
just an accident of like, these people becoming very consumed
in this online world and then they just like love
the idea of like it was all of a sudden,
they're all in this group chat and maybe these are
people that don't have that in their real lives and
(27:44):
so they're pulling into that. But it's yes, it's pretty
messed up situation.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
I feel as well.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
With Tattle, the reason it's so popular is because people
keep feeding into it. People keep reading and keep visiting
the website. We're not recommending you do any of those things.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Don't I do that.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
I would not want to give this man the satisfaction
after he's been unmasked of giving him the page views.
But the reason that it's so successful is because people
continue to frequent that website. These people, I feel, need
to learn how to be bored, how to go outside,
how to read more books, and stop being so invested
in fueling hate about other people's lives. And I know
(28:18):
that there are lots of cavits that come to that
the epidemic of loneliness that we're currently seeing, but you
are only adding fuel to that fire of your own
loneliness and your own whatever is going on inside of
you that's drawing you to this quote unquote community, and
you're doing yourself for disservice if you don't just cut
it off at the limb and go and try and
(28:39):
pursue something that's actually happy, if not beneficial to the world.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Yeah, exactly. Again, we're seeing and it's mostly women. We're
seeing target in Australia too, which is a hard thing.
So we're seeing this from Indy Clinton. Both Laura Henshaw
and Steph Claire Smith, as I was saying before, have
talked about not just specifically naming tattle, but this kind
of huge push of criticism and negativity that they have
a lot of austrange influences have talked about it. Even
at Abby Chatfield the moment, who's really prominent across her
(29:06):
podcast and her social channels, has said that she's got
it having to take like a little break from social
just because the relentless trolling show has become so much.
So we are really seeing in a very heightened state
at the moment, particularly towards women, and it'll be interesting
to see if anything happens with Tattle from this because
there have been people who've tried to take it down before.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
It hasn't worked.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
At one stage, there was some sort of announcement that
title was closing, and so many I think that's actually
when I saw a lot of people post about it
for the first time, because they thought it was closing
and they were able to say, like, yes, this is ending,
and then it didn't. And so it'll be interesting to
see if the roll on from finding the person behind
it does close it down and does stop that money
(29:47):
coming in.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
Well, and they're heading back to court at the end
of this month. I was listening to one of the
journals who broke this story and she said they were
back in court later this month. So who knows. Maybe
that is the outcome. Maybe if Tattle Life does shut down,
all these people can go outside and turn their faces
to the.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Whole thing will dissipate. Yeah, I mean, it won't end
the whole problem, but it will shut down like one
of the biggest cornerstones of this online hate.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
So yeah, to be huge.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
I'm hoping that happens. Well. Thank you very much for
listening to the spill today, and thank you Taylor for
joining us.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Thank you so much for having me back.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Talk about some fun, cheery things. No, the logis was
the best thing. That's our big takeaway. And also, don't
forget to follow The Spill on TikTok and Instagram. We
post all of our videos there and a lot of
different recommendations of things you could be watching. And The
Spill is produced by Monicia Issuaren with sound production by
Scott Stronik. Mama Mia Studio is a Star with furniture
from Fenton and Fenton. Visit Fenton Fenton dot com dot
(30:40):
au and we'll see you back here on your podcast
feed at three pm tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Bye bye,
So much.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and borders
that this podcast is recorded on Just.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
A quick heads up, this episode of The Spill mentions
suicide and self harm and some bullying, so please take
care when listening and if you or someone you know
needs to speak to someone, Lifeline's number is thirteen eleven fourteen.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
From Mamma Mia.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Welcome to The Spill, your daily pop culture fixed.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
I'm Laura Brodneck.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
And I'm Taylor Strano. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Back, love having here, fling in from the Quickie. Bit
of a dual news day for you.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Yeah, it's always a big day on the Quickie, but
it's always an extra special day when I get to
come and hang out with you Spill.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
We love that and that's all we have time. But
I'm drinking. I just ended it there.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Coming up on the show today, we are talking about
a huge news story that was I think across everyone's
different social media feeds over the weekend. A very well
known influencer hiring a private investigator to take on her
trolls and the mastermind, I guess you could call it
behind a huge gossip site that is also very prevalent
in Australia being unmasked. There was so much happening here.
(01:21):
There's such a huge backstory we're going to take you through.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
But first, but first, let's start.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
With some happy news.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Laura, Yeah, this is great. I freaking love the Logis.
I'm not even embarrassed about it.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
No, why would you be.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
The Logi nominations have just been announced. They came out
this morning. It is Australia TV and Film Industries Night
of Nights. That's where we get to celebrate and reflect
upon all the great television that's been made down Under
for the last twelve months or so. And the headline women.
They have dominated the nominations list, particularly the Golden Logi,
(01:56):
so the top gong. As we know, Larry Emda won
it last year, but this year the category is stacked
with a list of female nominees. Six women, Ali Langdon,
Julia Morris, Lisa Miller, Sonya Krueger, Poling Yao and Lynn McGranger.
And one man, of course, Hamish Blake found his way
to the man in there. He's got to be in there,
and we're happy because he's great as well. But really
(02:18):
nice to see so many women in the list this year.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Yeah, especially because with the Gold Logi only three women
have won it in the past fifteen years. They've won
it a few times in the owner row some of them,
so you know that's a little caveaut there. But the
last fifteen years the only women to have won the
Gold Logie are Sonya Krueger, Carrie Bigmore and Ashaketty. So
it does feel like this year we might see someone
sneaking it's on. I was watching all the coverage from
(02:41):
the announcement event today and news dot Com was talking
to Hamish Blake afterwards being like, how does it feel
to be the only guy nominated the Gold Logi? And
he was basically like, does feel like a little bit
of a stitch because he's like, how terrible would it
be if I won?
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Oh, he can't win, No, he can't win.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
But also he's got such a massive fan base and
now that he said that, like Australian notoriously like loves
a good joke.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
And of course the Gold Logi is voted by the publish.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
So you have some like the Graham Kennedy Award and
some of the talent awards that are industry vote, but
it's mostly voted.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
By the people.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
I don't know if you've got a favorite who you'd
love to win from that list, but I'm like Lynn McGranger.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Okay, I was gonna say it's got to be Lynn, right,
thirty three years on Home and Away, I looked her up.
I feel like Lynn deserves her flowers. Although I also
just love Poe. I don't know if you listened or
not recently, Laura, but she was on No Fill to
one of the other Mum of Mere podcasts with Kate Langbrook,
and she's just had this incredible life and it's just
such a like warm, lovely human being and she just
(03:39):
deserves all of the logis.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Yes, and she's been like such a constant source in
the Australian entertainment industry for so many years, which I
think this logi is supposed to be meant to be
like for all the years we've been on TV, not
just for like something you might have done this year,
as is some of the other logis are. So I
feel like Lynn or Poe would definitely be the kind
of standouts and someone very unexpected because they haven't been
in the race before with Lynn. I've got to say
(04:03):
I interview a lot of celebrities, like megastars, and there's
only a handful of people I've been really star struck by.
Lynn McGranger was in the Mummere office one she came
into that show Quizish.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
That we used to have. Irene did it for you? Yeah, yeah,
it was.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
It was I turned a corner in the old Mumma
Mer office, you know, we had that long corridor and
it was eight in Nicodemu and Lynn McGranger from Home
and Away. And because I had like been obsessively watching
Home and Away all through my childhood and teen years,
I saw them and I just panicked and I ran
away and I hid in that little old that closet
next to them because I was like, I didn't want
to interact with them. Yeah, of course, yeah, because I
(04:37):
was like, I was so starstruck, Like I could see
an A list like movie star and that would be fine,
but not not Irene from Home and Away.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
I feel like this is the wrong time to tell
you that I was a neighbours girl growing up.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Oh I mean, look, not gonna judge you for that.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
I also went through a few neighbours stints, okay, but
like Home and Away like that was my diehard. I
probably shouldn't have been watching it as a small child,
but we just did things like that.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
It was on TV.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
I remember that was when I when like one of
the characters, like Selena was pregnant and saying to my
mum is a six year old.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Like what does that mean? She was like, oh, don't worry.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
So that's how we were raised by neighbors and Home
and Away of course, and I feel like we need
to go back to giving them all the logies because
that's how it.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Used to go. Yeah, we need a full circle moment
in TV.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Lots of other awards, of course that make up the logis,
though they're silver, not goal just FYI, the Burt Newton
Award for Most Popular Presenter. And now this again is
a stacked list. Hamish Blake finding his way onto this
list as well, which makes sense. He hosts a lot
of great stuff.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
He can win that one. I'll allow it.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Julia Morris as well, Ricky Lee, Sonya Krueger to Todd Woodbridge.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
And Zan Rowe.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
I know who my favorite in that list?
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Oh wait, I think we are the same, shall we
say at the same time, I'm scared now all right?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Went two? Three?
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Zan row okay, great?
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Who always I lost your neighbors. We came back around
we as Androe Fangels on this podcast. And then of
course the.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
Graham Kennedy Award for Most Popular New Talent, which is
a really interesting award because I feel like this really
sets people up to have long and during careers in
Australian media. I think of people like Tony Armstrong obviously.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Who is so beloved.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Some really great names this list, Guy Montgomery of course
Guy Mont's spelling be on the ABC. Jenny Tan who
is just like wonderful and so hilarious. Yes, Kyler Day,
Sophia Levin and Haley Pinto and Kate Miller Hideke as well.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Oh, a new fresh face we've never heard of before,
but I guess you know, because she's won so many
music awards.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Sure it's for being on the Voice. Yeah, she's one
of the judges.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Yes, yes, yes, it was all the different musical shows.
A score in my heages then, but I'm like, yeah,
it's definitely the voice. It's definitely the voice. So we'll
see what comes of that.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
The full list of all the LOGI nominees is actually
out on the Muma Mere website right now, so you
can go there and have a look. And of course
the logis are happening on Sunday August three at the
Star here in Sydney.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Nice to be back close for you. Or it's not
big commute?
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Yeah, no, I love that. That's why I look for
on the logis. Is not a big commute time.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
You'll be there right well?
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Yes, yes, probably on the red carpet. Not so much
in the room unless I can invite it back into
the room.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
I've been there before. We'll see.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Stay tuned for that cliffhanger. Okay, moving on to a
big story that consumed a lot of people over the weekend.
Or whether you have a huge social media following or
you're just a nobody on the internet like me, everyone
was talking about this and that is the fact that
Indy Clinton, who is one of Australia's biggest TikTok stars,
entrepreneur a huge kind of face in the online media landscape,
(07:26):
gave an interview to the Daily Telegraph and also put
out a statement saying that she had hired a professional
pi to look into a number of people who had
been trolling, harassing her and defaming her online over the years.
So she said to the Daily Telegraph that she had,
along with the help of this professional team, that the
cyber bullies who had been harassing her for years had
been identified and then she was able to take legal
(07:49):
action to hold them accountable. And she went on to
say to the Daily Telegraph that some of the defamatory
things which had been said about her in recent years
were extremely distressing. And then she wented to sort of
talk about what could happen if this sort of behavior
continued with people who were living in the public eye,
and she said, lives have been taken for me a
few months ago.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
What I endured was life or death.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
So she was talking about the fact there if you
saw this at the time, that she had some plastic
surgery and she shared that online and the trolling and
it's like the really public backlash and she was getting
really violent messages about it was such a huge thing
that really consumed anyone who followed her for a while.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Oh absolutely, I mean, when anybody puts anything online, they
are making a conscious choice that it is open to
the public opinion forum. However, that does not mean that
you are inviting violent, threatening messages that make you feel
potentially unsafe even in your own home or community.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
And previously people have just been told there's something you
can do because it's anonymous, it's online. It wasn't something
you could really take action against someone sending you comments.
I know that a lot of influencers in the past
said that when this has happened to them, or influencers
or media personalities, when something like this has happened to them,
they have contacted the police, and often all they've been
told is they have to wait for action to be
(09:05):
taken or they need more proof. It can't just be
a comment online. But that's starting to change. And what
Indy Clinton said is that she had sort of just
had enough. She'd hire these professionals, and then she was
able to take some legal action because she had tracked ipeaddresses,
tracked real names, all those sorts of things.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
It's a really bold move and a really brave move
to take, and then to talk about it publicly on
your platform, be like, hey, I see you, and I've
stopped ignoring you, and I'm actually going to take a
stand against this. Now we don't know what is to
come of this sixty four page report. Yes that India
has been handed and we don't even know what's in
that report. We just know that it's something that is
(09:43):
now in her possession. But the fact that she's gone, hey,
I know you think you're anonymous. And by the way,
anybody who puts anything online anymore, if you think that
you're anonymous, you are absolutely kidding yourself. Even if you
post under your own name. Nothing has gone from the
Internet forever.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
We know that now, yes, exactly.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
So why people still continue to put hateful or dangerous
or scary things on the Internet completely baffles met.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
And that's the tagline I saw so many people sharing,
and not just people that I follow who are really
in the public eye, but even just people who are
active on socials but don't have a huge account. I've
seen so many people sharing that over the weekend, that
no one is anonymous, which I think has been the
turning point is that this sixty four page report that
she has with like contact names of people, like home
(10:31):
addresses where they work, all those sorts of things. Once
you find out who's behind these accounts, people's identity is
very traceable.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Absolutely, and I think for a lot of people this
might be their first time seeing someone really big that
they follow actually dealing with these trolls head on. But
as we know, Laura, this is not the first example
of somebody receiving online hate and then actually doing something
about it. This actually goes back to basically for as
long as people, usually women in particular, have posted anything
(11:01):
online or have been a public presence. I think about
people like Aaron Mollin, for instance, who is a journalist
and a reporter who spoke on sixty Minutes actually about
what she has done to help stamp out this hate.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
This is not about some little girl who wants to
go on Instagram and get likes and post a selfie.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
That's ridiculous.
Speaker 4 (11:22):
This is about being able to do something that everyone
else in this country does, which is be online and
not having to be subjected to vile, threatening, intimidating abuse
nobody deserves.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
I don't care who you are, so you know.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Some really strong words from Marion mLAN there, and who knows,
maybe this will help to set a prisoner and really
make people reconsider what it is that they're doing when
they post something hateful or scary online. The other example, Lauren,
and I know that you were definitely working around the
media when this happened is when Charlotte Dawson confronted her troll.
Of course, for people who don't remember, Charlotte Dawson was
(11:55):
this extremely high profile Australian TV personality, She was a model,
and she became this advocate against cyberbullying after she experienced
her own online harassment. It was, like most online harassment,
extremely intense for a woman of such public stature. She
was the target of this coordinated campaign of abuse on
social media, particularly on Twitter. People were sending her these
(12:16):
really awful messages urging her to inflict.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Harm upon herself.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
And then it actually all came out in the wash
and she actually, you know, confronted a couple of the
people who were behind all of this trolling online.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
I suppose the first thing I want to say is,
because I'm face to face with you, thesite around said,
how do you feel? I said, by the fact that
you know, I do say a lot of things that
are very nice.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Where does that come from? Doesn't come from anywhere in particular,
It just comes Do you think that people like Charlotte
should have to just cop.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Whenever you put out there, I think that you know,
being in the public eye, you are going to get
abused again. A little bit more confident on the internet's
fair game. If they put themselves out in the media,
I think they should be prepared the.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Cops and slack.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
I can understand why some people would think that was disrespectful.
Speaker 4 (13:04):
However, me, I have a very very dulled sense of
what is disrepectful and what isn't because I'm just desensitized
to her, and that's what the why is.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Yeah, I mean I remember that being confronting at the time,
but I think with the way that that situation has
escalated is even more confronting to hear now to people
say like, it's not real life. And also that idea
of what Charlotte was saying about how these people say
these things online, but at the same time she's like,
but you wouldn't turn around to me when you're staring
at me here right now and say those things. I
(13:33):
think it is the line for a lot of people
in terms of the idea that they think that words
online and then what they would say to a real
person are two different worlds. But when you're the person
who's at the center of that online and getting that abuse.
It's a completely different story. And also for someone like
Charlotte Dawson too, there's the added thing of her being
like such a recognizable face when all this was happening.
(13:54):
So not only is she having all these people come
for her online and these like very coordinated attacks, then
because she's a public face, then outlets start reporting on it,
they bring more eyes on it. It's like an escalating
situation where then people see that and then they go
and join the trolls. It's always like this like eating
itself kind of media cycle that can then take off.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Oh, it's like a self fulfilling prophecy. And during that
whole period of time, there still has to be a
level of self preservation, like she still has to show
up to work and she still has to be the
Charlotte Dawson that we've all become accustomed to seeing in
public life. And then, of course Laura nobody ever wants
to talk about the extreme cases, but unfortunately Charlotte Dawson
is one of those really really sad cases that in
(14:36):
twenty fourteen, she did end up taking her own life,
largely as a result of all of this online trolling
and hate, and it does go to show that if
continually pushed and if continually harassed, anybody can fall victim
to it. In that way, nobody is above it and
nobody is below it. So when it ranges from such
extreme cases and examples like Charlotte Dawson's death all the
(14:58):
way down to Indy Clinton's sixty four page report, it's
so important to remember that you are a person behind
that keyboard who you're putting your hate out into the world.
You're not anonymous, just as on the other end, the
person received that is also just a human being.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Oh absolutely, And I think talking about Charlotte's death because
she was beloved by so many people, can be really difficult.
But I also think it's just it is important in
this conversation to always bring up her name and bring
up what she said, just because she devoted so much
of her life to pushing against bullying and online behavior.
And I do think that things like meeting her trolls
or giving all these interviews about it, I do think
(15:33):
that did move the dial a little bit. Even if
she just stopped a handful of people who attacked her
from then jumping online and doing it to other people.
That's a huge change that she enacted through her life.
So I do think that's important to bring up, Nana.
What's really interesting about this is that we have these
two kind of huge stories around online behavior and well
known figures and celebrity. Is kind of culminating in the
(15:53):
last couple of days because alongside Indian Clinton talking about
hiring this private investigator, not releasing all the details of
the sixty four page report, but sort of taking people
through house she did it and starting a huge conversation,
we also had another big story take place in that area,
and that is the founder of are very How do
you describe Tattle?
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Well, I'm hoping you tell me.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
No.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
I mean, unfortunately I can tell you and look for
anyone out there who listening who doesn't know what title is.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
God bless you.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
You live a charmed life and you should stay there
ignorance and don't go into these dark corners of the internet.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Ignorance is bliss. However, we are here to corrupt that
ignorance right now.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Yes, Well, I should say I've been really careful not
to mention tattle on the spill. I know a lot
of people don't mention sites like that because you don't
want to drive people towards them. Because this has blown
up as a big news story over the weekend, and
especially because and so many influencers who are mentioned on
tatle a lot have their own tittle threads have been
sharing it. I think it's really in the public domain
(16:51):
now and it's not okay to talk about it. But
the more we talk about it, hopefully the more it
kind of shines a light and potentially it'll get shut down.
So title is an online gossip forum active in many, many,
very countries, and the idea is that you have these
different threads and pages about specific people or places. You
have to have a certain number of followers who on
likec with social media accounts to have an account made
(17:14):
about you, So like, you can't just go and make
an account about like a random person with like two
hundred followers. It has to be someone who's in the
public eye. Not that that's an excuse for anything, but
that's what the idea is. Okay, And on these forums,
so many people I believe you have to like, I
think anyone can view it. Well, I know anyone can
deal it because I've looked at it, and I'm definitely
not a member, but I think it is invite only,
(17:35):
like someone has to send you a code to access.
Already hating out, Yeah, it is something to hate that.
That's the correct emotion, just because it's it's so organized,
and it's so who has this much energy to be
so oh no, wait, we haven't even got to that
stage yet. There's a lot to say about that situation,
about the energy, because for a lot of people, this
is you know, everyone has a third place for a
(17:57):
lot of people, unfortunately, a lot of people have Homework
and Tattle and like virtual third place, and the idea
is that you go on there and basically bitch and
complain and share intel about these public figures in this place.
But everyone there has like a fake name, a fake hitcher.
It's all been very mysterious, and for a long time
(18:18):
people have been like people have tried to shut it
down many times, and well known people who have had
really intense threads about themselves and their families and their
businesses have tried to take legal action and it hasn't
really gone ahead. And recently the person behind it all
who started Tattle, which is now a worldwide situation, has
(18:39):
been unmasked as Sebastian Bond, who also goes by the
alias Bastian Durwood. So Sebastian Bond is a UK citizen.
He's also the creator behind the plant based recipe brand
Nest and Glow, which I'm sure he doesn't want those
two things said in the same situation. But this is
the situation that Sebastian has created for himself. So he's
(19:01):
been operating Tattle under a false name, which is Helen McDougall,
and he was using companies in Hong Kong and the
UK to obscure his idea, entity and income from this.
So people have been trying to find this person for many, many,
many years, and the reasons that it's happened is because
of a landmark legal case that was brought about by
Neil and Donna San. So they are an Irish couple
(19:23):
who were targeted by a forty five page thread on
Tattle that the court documents from this case described as
a calculated exercise of extreme cynicism and serious harassment. The
couple was awarded damages of three hundred thousand pounds And
this is also interesting, over one million dollars in assets
linked to tattle Life's advertising revenue were frozen. So tattle
(19:45):
Life doesn't do sponsored content, but there are like ads
like those Google ads do pop up in there.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Who is making to advertise on this website?
Speaker 1 (19:54):
No, I don't think it's like they sell space like
they or they sell like advertising generator.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Yeah, like when you go on the.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Different feeds, ads will pop up that circulate the Internet,
so they'd be making revenue. And because there's millions of
people on this site all the time, they'd be getting
a lot of eyes on there, which is again just
a huge part of it, the fact that it's become
this huge thing, it's had these real life consequences, and
he's making a lot of money off it. So if
a court actually lifted reporting restrictions on Bond's identity just
(20:22):
in June of this year, saying that his reckless conduct
and his attempts to evade enforcement of UK court decisions
had led to that, and basically this is what people
have been really chasing since twenty eighteen.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
So if you're want of.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Those people who sort of across this terrible world, which
unfortunately a lot of really well known people are, because
they just can't you know, they even if they don't
go and look at it, they're very aware it's happening.
This is a huge landmark case of having a face
and a name and court restrictions against this person.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
It's so interesting, right, Laura, because I look at those
names of that couple who were really the undoing of
tattle life. I have no idea who those people are, yeah,
which I think is really telling of like we will
basically just read hateful stuff about anybody.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Oh, there are millions of tattle threads, and can I
say it's not a sight I frequent at all, and
thank god I'm a nobody, so like I'm not on
there or if I don't even know how my name
would brought up if it is, like there's you know,
notions of it, so that's kind of like a safety net.
But I did find out about it a couple of
years ago because a couple of well known people that
I follow were posting about it and talking about this
(21:29):
kind of like horrific site that was happening, and I
was like, what the hell is this? And honestly my
mind was quite blown by the existence of these threads.
It's interesting because a lot of different well known people
have talked about it, And it was only the last
few months that Steph Claire Smith, who is the co
owner of Kick and a very public figure with over
a million followers, was talking about Tattle on her Instagram
(21:51):
stories and saying that her husband Josh didn't know it
existed and when he found out, he was just so
genuinely shocked that people were talking about him, talking about
their family, talking about their kids, and just couldn't.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Like just the shock he had.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
I was like, yeah, that is the correct response to
finding out that these things.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Well, it's shocked as well, because it's that thing of
you have absolutely no control over that at all. People
can just get on there like the wild West and
say whatever the heck they want, true or not, because
let's be real, I don't think there's a fact checking
section of Tattle.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
No.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
I don't think that's in the budget for them personally.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
No, no, no, I can't say I've ever seen that.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
What I do want to commend this Northern Irish couple
on is the fact that they've been able to pursue
this legal course of action and now we have this
man's name, Bastard or Bastian, what was his name?
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Yeah, it Sebastian is like his code name.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
I like Bastard better personally. But of course, let us
not forget the only reason that we do now know
who this man is is because they were in a
position which is incredibly wealthy to be able to pursue
the legal action.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
And a lot of people, even.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Though they may appear online and they may appear of
being this high status so high earning or celebrity or influencer,
that doesn't necessarily mean that they have the financial means
to pursue the action that this couple have done. Oh absolutely,
So even when you're reading this, I feel like sometimes
when we read gossip about celebrities and we're like, oh,
they're so far away, there's another layer of otherness to them. Yeah,
(23:23):
But when it comes to these websites that are so
hate filled, and it's people who are influencers, but they
are also just somebody that you could see down local supermarket,
I'm always taken soa back by that. So I'm really
glad for those people who are maybe on the lower
end of that scale, and celebrities as well, they're also
just people that this is all starting to come down
around this mat.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Oh one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
And also just because you have twenty thousand followers on Instagram,
which I think is around the number of people you
have to have in order for Tattle to make a
thread about you. It doesn't mean that you have a
huge amount of wealth from that, like you could not
have the means to do it. And also what I
find interesting is that kind of diving. And again I
haven't spent a lot of time on Tattle, but I
have like delved into a few threads over the years,
(24:05):
particularly if some public figure has spoken about it, which
is unfortunately that line that people have to walk on.
A lot of public figures have said this over the years,
is that they sometimes want to speak out against it
and sort of push back on it. But then if
you do that, you also run the risk of pushing
more people towards looking at the thread and it blowing up.
So it's that sort of back and forth situation.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
Well, even Muma Mia, we have had to walk that
type rope as individuals at the company, but also as
the company a whole. We have been drawn into and
our name has been thrown across a lot of stories
like that, even in recent memory. How does something like
tittle differ to something that's super popular like dumoir. Where's
the line there?
Speaker 2 (24:45):
I think with Dumoi, I.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Mean again, that was another thing of someone being unmasked
who was the founder of that. But I think that
still has a lot of protocols around it because that
does have a site, like dumin has advertising partners. At
the end of the day, people do know the woman
behind that. She's also like she's out there writing books,
releasing a podcast, and she's also like the person who
runs dumoin is in contact with a lot of different
celebrities and pr so I think there's a lot more
(25:08):
accountability there that Yes, she posts a bit of gossip
and spot it on the street, all those sorts of things,
but always with a big disclaimer of this hasn't been
fact checked, this was a sent in rumor. But I
do think that it would be much easier to hold
her to account because at the end of the day,
we know who she is, whereas these tattle threads can
just go and like you know, also the same thing
(25:29):
of people making anonymous accounts to post on TikTok or
Twitter or Instagram, a lot harder to hold them to
account and fact check it. And the weird thing is
is that this is one of the reasons, actually, to
be honest, why I've looked at tattle sometimes in the
past and why I've gone deep in some threads is yes,
they're horrifically mean, and some people say that they're to
hold people to account, but it's like it's an anonymous forum,
(25:50):
so how are you holding them to account? And the
idea is also that they shouldn't look at it. So
if you really had an issue with something an influencer
have said, like you think they've given bad health advice
or something like that, Like you could just also send
them a well crafted email and be like, hey, this
is the teacher that you can send it that way, yeah,
Or you can report to Instagram guidelines and stuff like.
There's a lot of different things. I just don't think
(26:12):
holding someone into account is something that's going to happen
on an anonymous thread. But what I found really fascinating,
and I think speaks to this weird place where at
the moment with internet culture and our relationship to celebrities,
is that people have formed like little communities on there,
like they'll check in with each other at the beginning
of the day when they like jump back on their thread.
They'll go back and forth, they'll like have little jokes,
(26:34):
they'll say good night to each other. They'll like around
Christmas time, which I think like I jumped on one year
because something was happening. I was looking at some tattle
threads that were like Merry Christmas, like fellow tattle taddlers
like oh and like oh yeah, I hope everyone had
a good New Year and stuff, which is I just
find that bizarre behavior. It's like these people are so
desperate for some sort of community and belonging, and obviously
(26:56):
we're all very kind of like there's a lot of
loneliness going around. People feel very othered, like you might
be working from home and stuff, and instead of going
out and like finding community somewhere else, they're finding it
in these forums with a shared kind of hatred of
online people.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
Hate is not a good foundation for friendship. It is
ultimately leading you down the path to mutual assured self destruction. Eventually,
something will blow up and somebody will not agree with
somebody in one of these threads, and.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
All hell will break loose.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Oh yeh yeah, exactly. No, No, I don't recommend going there
to find friends. And I also don't think that anyone
joins these threads for that reason. I think it was
just an accident of like, these people becoming very consumed
in this online world and then they just like love
the idea of like it was all of a sudden,
they're all in this group chat and maybe these are
people that don't have that in their real lives and
(27:44):
so they're pulling into that. But it's yes, it's pretty
messed up situation.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
I feel as well.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
With Tattle, the reason it's so popular is because people
keep feeding into it. People keep reading and keep visiting
the website. We're not recommending you do any of those things.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Don't I do that.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
I would not want to give this man the satisfaction
after he's been unmasked of giving him the page views.
But the reason that it's so successful is because people
continue to frequent that website. These people, I feel, need
to learn how to be bored, how to go outside,
how to read more books, and stop being so invested
in fueling hate about other people's lives. And I know
(28:18):
that there are lots of cavits that come to that
the epidemic of loneliness that we're currently seeing, but you
are only adding fuel to that fire of your own
loneliness and your own whatever is going on inside of
you that's drawing you to this quote unquote community, and
you're doing yourself for disservice if you don't just cut
it off at the limb and go and try and
(28:39):
pursue something that's actually happy, if not beneficial to the world.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Yeah, exactly. Again, we're seeing and it's mostly women. We're
seeing target in Australia too, which is a hard thing.
So we're seeing this from Indy Clinton. Both Laura Henshaw
and Steph Claire Smith, as I was saying before, have
talked about not just specifically naming tattle, but this kind
of huge push of criticism and negativity that they have
a lot of austrange influences have talked about it. Even
at Abby Chatfield the moment, who's really prominent across her
(29:06):
podcast and her social channels, has said that she's got
it having to take like a little break from social
just because the relentless trolling show has become so much.
So we are really seeing in a very heightened state
at the moment, particularly towards women, and it'll be interesting
to see if anything happens with Tattle from this because
there have been people who've tried to take it down before.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
It hasn't worked.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
At one stage, there was some sort of announcement that
title was closing, and so many I think that's actually
when I saw a lot of people post about it
for the first time, because they thought it was closing
and they were able to say, like, yes, this is ending,
and then it didn't. And so it'll be interesting to
see if the roll on from finding the person behind
it does close it down and does stop that money
(29:47):
coming in.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
Well, and they're heading back to court at the end
of this month. I was listening to one of the
journals who broke this story and she said they were
back in court later this month. So who knows. Maybe
that is the outcome. Maybe if Tattle Life does shut down,
all these people can go outside and turn their faces
to the.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Whole thing will dissipate. Yeah, I mean, it won't end
the whole problem, but it will shut down like one
of the biggest cornerstones of this online hate.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
So yeah, to be huge.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
I'm hoping that happens. Well. Thank you very much for
listening to the spill today, and thank you Taylor for
joining us.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Thank you so much for having me back.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Talk about some fun, cheery things. No, the logis was
the best thing. That's our big takeaway. And also, don't
forget to follow The Spill on TikTok and Instagram. We
post all of our videos there and a lot of
different recommendations of things you could be watching. And The
Spill is produced by Monicia Issuaren with sound production by
Scott Stronik. Mama Mia Studio is a Star with furniture
from Fenton and Fenton. Visit Fenton Fenton dot com dot
(30:40):
au and we'll see you back here on your podcast
feed at three pm tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Bye bye,
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