June 25, 2025 • 35 mins
Today on The Spill, we unpack the surprisingly intense reaction to Meghan Markle’s new lifestyle product launch. What started as a simple jar of jam and a bottle of rosé has spiralled into viral backlash. But is it really about the products, or something deeper?
Then, a high-profile feminist has gone viral for saying she no longer wants to be interviewed by women. We explore what sparked the comment, the reaction online, and whether it speaks to broader tension around how female celebrities are treated in media.
Our hosts also weight in with their tales of what it’s really like interviewing celebrities, and how writing a profile is never as simple as it seems.
LOVE THE SPILL?
If you're all about the latest on Meghan Markle, catch up on The A-List Actress Who Called Out Meghan Markle Has Quietly Deleted The Evidence
Specifically can't get enough of the jam drama saga specifically? Listen to Meghan Markle’s Jam Crisis & Angelina Jolie’s Tears
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Hosts: Laura Brodnik and Ksenija Lukich
Executive Producer: Monisha Iswaran
Audio Producer: Scott Stronach
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
So much.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and borders
that this podcast is recorded on From Mamma Mia. Welcome
to the Spill your daily pop culture Fix. I'm Laura Brodnick.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
And I'm Cassena Lukitch. And on today's show, we are
talking about a celebrity and renowned feminist who has just
dropped a massive bomb. She has said that she's not
going to be interviewed by female journalists anymore.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
So we're going to get.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Into that, but first we need to talk about two things.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Jam and Rose, yes.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Kind of my two faith things. I mean, Rose is
up there. I'm actually not a jam girl, so maybe
I'm speaking out of turn on this whole thing. I'm
going to weigh in on Jam and a really, but
I've found an expert to help us out.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Unfortunately, this is about Megan Markle again. I know that
we talk about her a lot, but there have it's
been some less than favorable reviews about her latest Jam drop.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Yes, yes, her latest collection. So yeah, that's the thing
about Megamarcaela is like we could cover her on this
podcast every day, every day we record, there is a
story about her, and they're mostly negative because that's what
people are leaning into. So we try and stay out
of the fray as much as possible unless there's something
that pops up where we feel like we could weigh in.
And what's kind of interesting is that because she hasn't
(01:36):
been doing any big public like in person appearances. Her
TV show isn't coming back for a while, she hasn't
launched a new book or anything like that, there's not
been as much for people to kind of nitpick at
about her life and what she and Harry are doing.
Not since we covered her when she posted the very innocent,
very lovely video of her daughter, Lillabette's birth, Yes, and
(01:56):
wanted to celebrate that, and everyone was like, well, that's
a fake pregnancy stomach.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Isn't I know?
Speaker 3 (02:01):
And then like, I mean, the thing is, she's done
a number of podcasts lately, but she's just been torn
to treads by parody accounts on TikTok.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Yeah, but this is.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Primarily about her raspberry jam.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
So basically the raspberry jam that she's had has been
torn to pieces by renowned jam expert Donna Collins.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Yes, I mean who Donna was before that I didn't.
I must confess I'm not educated in this area. I'm
not a part of it. I don't identify as part
of the jam community. So I didn't know there were
jam experts. But she has won this woman, Donna has
one over forty jam competition, so I yes, she is
very qualified to weigh in.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
And the difference between a Jam and Mama later spread
as like coolly like, it seems like this is quite
a big.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
This world is not a faint of heart, like this
is like you think you like jam, this is not
the place for you.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
So Donna said that it's a real disappointment, stating it's
quite disappointing to see Megan marketing a fruit spread, which
essentially is what you create when jam does not succeed.
Collins explains that in a world preserves, a spread is
often a failed jam, too runny to set properly. She
(03:15):
questioned why Markle used pecton a gelling agent, suggesting it
was needed because the product was too liquid, and that's
kind of been the general feedback is that it's very
runny jam.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Again, I'm not a massive jam eater.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
I yeah, I don't love jam, But although Bradwood like
would be very yeah, I no, no jam is like
but also, this is what we found when she first
launched her brand, which is now called as Ever, but
was previously called American Riviera Orchard. It took me a
long time to remember that. So even though that name
has been forbidden now I'm gonna keep saying it. So
(03:48):
she couldn't get the trademark for that. She launched as Ever,
and the big thing was, well, actually the big thing
was remembered when she sent those jam baskets out to
like a select few and everyone was trying to work
out which celebrities were important enough to get the jam
and who got the first jam and it was this
huge thing. And then that was such a big plot
point on her Megan Marchaul with Love megaan Netflix show,
(04:08):
because Mindy Kayling, the People's Princess, was like, hey, megot
who got the most important gem? And Megan was like
so like so shocked, and she was like, I just
thought people want a gem and like there's no number,
there's no hierarchy. I just thought everyone would like them.
The poor sweet innocent girl didn't know the gem drama
that she had unleashed in that moment.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
And it feels like it's kind of like one of
those things of like making tea, Like when Brits make tea,
they get very like defensive over how you make a
cup of tea. And there's something about an America making
a cup of tea that really like offends the Brits.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yeah, it even offended me. And I don't drink tea
like us in the way that people make these.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Cups of tea.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
But I think that that's part of it. But look,
it's all sold out again.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
But there has been these criticism, and we spoke about
this before. Is that is it actually like selling out
or she's just not made a lot of her.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
That's what people are saying today. So the reason Donna
the Gem Expert has been sought for her professional opinion
by the Daily Mail, who you know did reach out
to her and said, can you critique this jam? This
happened also when Megan Michael did her first Jam drop,
A lot of people did the critique of it and
it was quite bad. Like the cut got a number
of people who and they were the ones who had
burned her in that whole big profile they did with her.
(05:24):
So you know, there's a lot of hurt feelings behind
the scenes of that particular article, but they had a
bunch of taste testers who so the jam was bad.
This is her second drop, and yet it all started.
Megan's like very much in her entrepreneurial space right now,
Like she has her own podcast now, which is so
she's pivoted away from like those big celebrity interviews, the
podcast she was originally doing, and now she's interviewing female founders.
(05:47):
She's also going on other people's podcasts to talk about
female being a female founder and is getting torn to
shreds because she said she's a really hard worker who's
really in the weeds. And to be fair to her,
she's talking about being a hard worker in terms of,
like I think she's inferring that she could potentially work
less just because of the money that they have and
the money they could have for deals and things like that,
(06:08):
but she chooses to kind of work around the clock
and be very involved. She's not saying she works harder
than like a nurse or a doctor or something like that,
which is the kind of inflection that people have put
on that. But as she's been in her big entrepreneurial space,
has ever put out their new jobs. So it had
like all the different little like homewhere things you can
buy and the jam, and then she put up an
(06:28):
Instagram story saying it had all sold out almost immediately,
and she made special note of the flower sprinkles you
remember in her Netflix show that was a huge thing.
How everyone was like, no one's going to use those.
And I wonder if, like her post that she put
up was a bit of a dig at that, because
she said, I knew you guys would love those and
they would sell out. But everything has sold out and
most and the jam sold out the quickest, and now
(06:50):
people are saying that it was a fake stock or
that there was never stock to begin with. All that
there's only like ten jars of jams. Of course they
sold out, so they're calling her bluff.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
I don't think that that's like necessarily a bad thing.
If that's a marketing tactic she's done, it's very very common.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
I'm actually starting to feel sorry for her now.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Yeah, I always feel sorry for a little only because it's.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Like constant pylon of her exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
And we've been having this conversation since she came on
the scene so many years ago, like it's this constant
kind of pylon of like she puts out a release
and yes, we find the humor and obviously because like
at first there was the whole thing about which celebrities
had the jam and who had this? And then it
was like and then the jam never appeared for sale
and people like, where's the jam? Megan? You lie to us,
like give us our jam. Then there was a hilarious
(07:36):
moment which wasn't even anything to do with her but jimmer,
when the Palace put out an official statement saying that
they had been selling jam. First, do you remember that?
Speaker 3 (07:43):
No?
Speaker 1 (07:44):
No, because this is.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
So crazy over jam.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Buckingham Palace has a jam. I believe you can buy
it in the gift shop. And after there was that
whole thing of where is Megan Michael's jam And it's
not even jam, it's a preserve like this is years ago.
And then Buckingham Palace, the messy bitches that they are,
put out a statement saying that their jam was world
renound and that's the jam, and they never mentioned Megan
or anything like that. But the timing was so spot
(08:07):
on and suspicious that it was a clear dig at her.
Now this new Dropp has come out and across her socials,
and you can tell she spent so much time making
like her social announcement look beautiful, because that's very her vibe.
Like she's very Instagram kind of curated, yeah, very curated,
like kind of circle like twenty eleven twelve, that very
kind of like you know, put together, like you know,
you can just tell that she's she's a woman who
(08:28):
has just died a little inside when she was in
the Royal Family and she couldn't post like a black
and white picture of an ocean or her avocado toast
in the morning, like that really hurt her. So she's
back on the Instagram train, and all people are really
taking away from it is that she's faked the jam
stock and that this woman Donna, like this one's getting
more press than like the Royal Family or even almost
(08:51):
Megan mikel herself at the moment, like because she put
out this terrible review of Megan Michael's Jam and said
it's fake jam, it's been made badly, and it's got pesticides.
So really, what Donna's trying to say is that Megan
Michael's trying to kill you with jam.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Is oh my god, it's new conspiracy there and you go, well, jam,
the jam is trying to kill you. You, I mean,
this is this is like the crazy thing about all
of this is I've never had a jam expert before.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yeah, I love that, love that love.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
That's very good.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
I would love to see if anyone's tried it.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Yeah, and any of our.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Spiller has tried it and liked it.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
I'm sure Donna like takes her jam critiquing very seriously,
like that is her industry and her passion in her life.
But also maybe she's holding it to a higher standard.
I don't know. She also said I don't believe Megan
mikel is making this jam. That's Donna's accusation. And to that,
I say, yeah, Donna, we don't think she's making the jam,
and no offense. I don't want jam that's come from
Mega michaels like home kitchen with the chickens running in
(09:45):
and out, like I want it to come from a
proper factory where it's all like or it's all like
done properly. But I feel like I can't wait into
the jam. But she is releasing a rose soon, her
very own rose, and that I will weigh it on
because that I feel very confident speaking on.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
I just feel like a Rose brand again.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
It's all very dated, like like everyone was releasing Rose
brands like a decade ago.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Like it feels like.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
It's like she's been pulled back from the limelight for
so long that she's doing all.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
These before she was in the royal family.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Yeah, she's like doing all these things that she wanted
to do a while ago, Like Kylie Minogue's done a Rose,
like everybody, like Man and their Dog has done a Rose,
like the Heinrich sit of Rose.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
I know it's out and about everyone, but I think
she's just doing She's very kind of regressive in a way,
but in a really lovely way where she's she's leaning
back into that cute sea, very curated Instagram world and
releasing her Rose and I kind of love that for her.
But yes, that I do feel like her. Weigh in on.
I'll give Donora a run for her money in the
critiquing stake.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Did we do it a taste test?
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yes, Well it's going to be a limited drop, so
here's we have to do. Set our alarms. You abandoned
your children and husband, and we will sit together and
we will buy the rose the second it comes out.
I feel like that's the only way we can do it.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Jimmila Jamil, activist an actor, has taken a pretty strong
stance on her sub stack recently. Now this happened a
couple of days ago, but it's taken us a while
to sort of digestive. Now, the title of the substack
is I think I'm done with being interviewed by women.
I am disgusted. There is a lot to unpack here now.
(11:21):
Jamila Jamil is, you know, very well known for her
feminism and her activism. If you've seen the good place
she was in that she was a presenter.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
She was born in the UK.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Back in twenty nineteen, was named by Time magazine as
the twenty five most influential people on the Internet. Like,
she has done a lot of really wonderful advocacy work,
particularly in the eating disorder space and feminism and advocating
for women.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Now, the core of.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
This article is basically talking about how she was interviewed
recently by Liz Edwarods for The Sunday Times, and she
basically said she's disgusted by the I'm going to call
it fluff language. That happens around the interview. She basically
says that it has reduced her to you know, all
(12:16):
of her mental health and physical health problems that she had.
It's reduced her to controversies rather than talking about the
good work that she's done. Also, to be clear, she
says that this is only about print journalism, not about
like podcasts or in verbatim articles written by women, So
(12:36):
it's not like she's attacking women.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
I think that's.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
What a lot of people are picking up is, Oh,
she's not going to be interviewed by any female journalist.
There's been a couple of snarky articles following up on
this particular substack, but the core of it is that
she doesn't feel like she has been represented correctly, and
the people focus so strongly on the negative things that
(12:59):
have happened and her quote unquote controversies that they don't
actually focus on the work that she's doing.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Now, yes, I've got to say, like I thought it
was a really interesting take, but I'm a little bit
on the fence about some of the things she's bringing up.
It is important to say, as you're saying that she's
been called out for attacking women or disregarding women, but
she makes some kind of fair point where she says,
I've been in this industry for over twenty years. In
that time, I've been an interviewer at an interviewee. And
(13:27):
she also says that with the number of women that
have interviewed her for prints, she said she can only
name four, and then she listed their names, women who
she feels have done her justice, and this time she says,
but my trust has been broken for the last time.
This is where things get interesting, where she says with
a special thanks to a toothy opinion piece by Liz Edwards,
who was normally the travel writer. I thought was a
(13:48):
good little thing where she's just added that nice little
dig there and then says it's just the straw that's
broken the camel's back. I also thought it was interesting
that she starts off by saying that she found the
experience with Liz like initially very positive. So when I
read that, because you hear of so many different people,
especially very high profile people, who sometimes give their side
of an interview where they feel that they've been slandered
(14:09):
or they haven't been properly represented, and they often talk
about it being like not a great experience. But I
thought it was interesting that Jamilla was saying that she
felt very safe, that she felt like good in the moment,
but what her issue is that she said she gave
over an hour a very thoughtful opinion and background, and
that was all left out on the cutting room floor.
(14:30):
I also thought it was interesting that she was recording
it herself, because she wants the journalist to know that
she's keeping a record and she wants to release it,
but she's going to ask their permission first. So it's
the interview the interview itself. She had a positive experience
with it's with the write up. It's hard to because
when I read the piece, the way that Liz opens
her piece is exactly the way I would have opened it.
(14:52):
And I've done a lot of interview people, a lot
for podcasts and video, but mostly I was a print
journalist for over a decade where I would sit with
the person, and then a lot here at Mama Mia
two doing entertainment interviews where you spend sometimes it's twenty
minutes with the person, sometimes it's a five minute junket.
Sometimes you get a big bulk of time, but you're
writing down what they say. But also what you think.
(15:13):
You're trying to paint.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Painting a picture exactly.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
So I'll write, like sometimes I'll go into a ten
minute interview, but I'll write a two thousand mod piece
on it because I'm using their quotes, but I'm also
talking about how they acted at the premiere the night before,
and like what I saw them do, Like I saw
Cynthia Riever and Ariana Grande sit on the floor together
and they big ball gowns and cry while they watch Wicked.
You know, you see Zendea slip out a side door
during her premiere, and so you put all of that
(15:36):
color in. But then you're also talking about like in
the room, like how do they react when you walked in,
how do they react to your questions? What do they
laugh at? What do they look concerned about? Did they
look off to their PR team? And it's hard because
that's very subjective, Like as a journalist, you're putting your
own thoughts in there, but it might not necessarily mirror
up to what they're saying, which is what Jamelia is
(15:56):
saying here. But it's hard because Liz opens it by saying,
like Jamila Jamil knows that like not everyone's gonna like her,
and then she lists like things that she's done that
are controversies and from a journalist's point of view, like
not to be completely on thess's side, But I under
stand because that's the pointiest part of the story. Yeah,
And the whole point of writing these pieces is to
come in with the biggest quote and then build out
(16:18):
a story and then come in with some background and
then go back in. Whereas Jamal is interpreted, is that
like you've taken the worst things about me and put
it at the top, and you're paraphrasing what I'm thinking,
and you've cut out basically all the activism.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
And I think also what's important is that Jamila Jamil,
while she is famous and well known, there are a lot.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Of people who wouldn't know who she is.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
So I think what Liz is doing is trying to
paint a picture and give us a little bit of
history of who she is before going into, yes, an
in depth interview, which I think is a fair.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
It is fair, But she also didn't do it the
way that you just did it when you introduced Like
when you introduced her, you said you gave credit to
all her different work and things to be fair to Liz,
like she does do that near the top, but she
goes in with like, Jamila Jamil knows that you're probably
not gonna like her kind of vibe. Yeah, So even
though she did say that interview, she probably said it
at the end of their like two hour conversation, Whereas
(17:14):
I understand it's the most interesting thing that she said.
But I'm sure in Jimilla's eyes, she's not introducing her
like you just did with her accolades or her credits.
She's introducing her with this big statement she made, as
that she meant to be an exclamation mark at the
end of the story, not the opener.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
She talked a little.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Bit about how she actually feels like male journalists have
given her more of a fair shot than women, which
felt a little bit.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Pick me for me, right, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Yeah, Which is odd because I actually really like Jamila Jamil.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
I think she has spoken.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
I particularly like her work in eating disorders and bringing
some light to you know, her anarexia during her teen
years that I find I really really respect that work
that she's done, particularly diet culture and things like that.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
But that line, I was like, oh, I don't. I
don't love that.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
I don't love that, but I also do understand where
she's coming from. It's like, sometimes I think women, and
this is what I'm gathering from her experience, they come
in with this agenda, whereas men are more happy to
be particularly because they know she's a feminist. Maybe there's
(18:30):
a bit of fear there to quote unquote challenge her
on what she's done, whereas women would feel more open
to being comfortable doing that.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Exactly where the difference is.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yeah, because she does say a bit in the piece
that she knows that men might have that fear of her,
and it would be quicker and easier, Like she does
say this in her substack, for men to be called
out if they treated her badly at an interview, because
I think there's something like that can be a little
bit more black and white. If a man interviewing her
is like, oh, she talks like this, this and this,
and that would be a very easy thing for the
(19:06):
world as a whole to latch onto. But what she
says is that women are a bit more undefined with
their critiques. They bury it a little bit. And I
also think that that's because I don't know, like, do
women go into these interviews thinking that there's so many
layers here, and like you're doing a disservice to your
readers if you don't pull it the layers. Yeah, Liz
has pointed out some things that she wouldn't have liked,
including the article, that don't paint her in the best light.
(19:28):
But there are things like being nice to the waiter,
or like being nice to the people in the restaurant,
and you almost think like that should be a positive thing,
but she's taken it as being like, well, of course
I would be, why wouldn't I She doesn't like the
fact that the cost of her house was mentioned in
the article. I almost think that that is sometimes quite
important if she's talking about like social injustice and like
(19:49):
those sorts of things to say, like she's coming from
this place. But obviously, again that's subjective. I think the
line that she pulled out that she was quite upset about,
which is the one time I kind of agree with
Jamila that it was painting her in this very specific,
unflattering light, was when she's asking her about well she
did I was just saying she didn't like all her
chronic healths listed because she's like, that's twenty years pretty
(20:12):
much of content of information that she's given listed like that,
and she's like, it makes me look crazy because if
you're not across this. One of the biggest stories around
Jamil and Jamil that used to exist in the dark
corners of the web that have now sort of been
talked about a lot in forums and in articles and
things over the years is that people think she's basically
lying a lot about a lot of her health conditions.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Sad ok this narrative so much.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Yeah, it's and I hate also ha when people say like, no,
but once you look at it, you'll see she's lying.
And I'm like, I've looked at it. I don't believe
she's lying. And also how could you tell well that,
I mean, I won't go into all of it, but
people are saying, like, the list of medical conditions she
says she has sometimes will cancel each other out, or
they'll say, like, she said she had this, but then
(20:58):
the next year she said it was this, And then
they'll also say that these medical conditions can't exist together.
So basically there are places on the Internet where people
have like put together like huge presentations tracing everything she
said about her health for the last twenty years and
basically saying she's lying.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Okay, And I really hate this because it's hard enough
for women to be believed. And we know this, how
long does it take women with endometrios is to be diagnosed?
Like we know that women's health concerns are consistently overlooked
and underprescribed and underrepresented in Like we know that most medical.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Studies were done on men. Yeah, Like this is very
well documented.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
So I think it's actually really disrespectful to question her
on that when she's done nothing but be a very honest,
open activist.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Yeah, exactly, And that's what she said in her substackers
where she was like, I'm happy for people to talk
about my past controversies or things I've said that are
wrong in the past. She's like that, I'm happy to
wait in on that. But in this particular case, she
says that Liz asked her a question and she politely
declined to answer, saying that there's certain areas online like
online controversies. She doesn't like to give oxygen too because
(22:13):
then it blows up again. And she said that she
was very like nice in the moment, and she gave
Liz some more time, and then in the piece, Liz
writes that Jamila's PR team tried to jump in and
stop the interview, and then she said something about once
it was sort of sordid, and they continued on that
Jamila's clause retracted and that's people what kind of set
her off. Yeah, I get that too, because clause retracting
(22:35):
it it's like it's a line of wanting. I don't know.
Part of me is like it's like it was good
writing in terms of like it put you in the moment.
There was tension, and but I guess I'm coming from it.
Where Like when I was reading the Sunday Times piece,
I was so in like this is Liz's interpretation, that
it didn't color what I think of Jamilla. Yeah, because
I was so in the mindset of like, this is
(22:56):
one woman's interpretation of her, Whereas if you're maybe just
a general punter who's picking up the newspaper, that would
have made you hate Jamilla. So I kind of understand
why she was up.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
Yeah, and I think the thing is, like, you know,
she says, she politely declined, but we both know when
you ask a celebrity something and they politely decline.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
It is a real hit to the ego.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
It does actually like I've had it happen.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
To me before, where I like asked, you know, the publicist,
is it okay? If I asked this question. I asked
the question, they shut me down. The publicist jumped in
and I was like, oh, and then it feels really awkward.
It like taints the rest of the interview. So I
can kind of understand if that's where she's like feeling
that tension, because it does. It feels uncomfortable when someone
(23:38):
like rejects your advances. And my biggest thing is I
don't like making people feel uncomfortable when I interview them.
I want people to feel like open and honest and
like I am not here to get like gotcha, like
got your journalism. My vibe never has been. But I
think probably she's like got her garter. She says no,
(23:58):
thank you, and this journalist has gone, oh, well fuck you.
Then I'm going to say you put your claws away.
It feels a bit again.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
That feels caddy to me.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Yeah, yeah, it definitely. It was a moment where it
definitely was a moment where she kind of showed her
hand of what she was thinking. It is a hard
thing because when the journalists and a celebrity sit down
to do an interview, you're sitting down really to almost
have like as much as sometimes they're lovely and you're lovely,
Like again, I'm the same. I'm never trying to get
like a gotcha moment, but I also want a really
good soundblade, I want a good hook. You're sitting down
(24:29):
to almost play this game of chess, but you're acting
like best friends.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
All the time.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
It's like, Hi, how are you? How are you? And
it's weird because you're both acting you don't know each other.
It's a weird situation because usually you have about ten
people watching you, and it's mostly their team that are
there to protect them. So like as the journalists, you
feel like you're facing off against ten people, but at
the same time, they're very aware that you're taking what
they say and putting it in a public forum. So
(24:55):
if anyone's gonna be at a loss, it's going to
be the celebrity. So you have the power in that way,
and you're sitting there and you're having this dance back
and forth of like how much I'll give you what
I'm going to say, can I trick you into this?
That sort of back and forth, and so it is
really it's such an unnatural, weird situation to be in,
and it's always formed as like we had a chat.
(25:15):
I'm like, this isn't a chat. This is a battlefield.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
Jamilla is not the first person to complain. I don't
want to say complain because I think that sounds whiny
and bitchy. This is she's not the first person to,
you know, critique some of these profile pieces. We've had
a number of other celebrities who have critiqued these profile pieces. Now,
to be clear, we're talking about written profile pieces, usually
those like long ones like Vanity Fair, Vogue, sort of
(25:44):
the primary ones where you think about these like big
profile pieces.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Because they're the ones that are not just the Q
and A or anything like that. They're the one, as
we were saying, where the journalist puts their interpretation and
their thoughts. And I met.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
Jamilla at a cafe based downtown in Los Angeles. She
ordered a macho latte. I ordered the coffee you can
picture it in.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Sometimes I like, my favorite thing is and also I've
done this, I know. I'm also like a person who's
you know, I'm not innocent here, but I love almost
writing intro before I go read these big profiles in
my head, because I'll be like blah blah blah like
Sophie Turana, like strodes into the cafe. She's tried to
look casual, but her blonde curls are cascading down her back.
She sits down at a table and adjust her mohair
(26:31):
white sweater, looking older than her twenty five. It just
go and then with just a beaming smile to the waiter,
she orders a chill glass of water. One slice, and
you're just like, oh my, like this.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
I know those actually give me like the ick that
of them too much color. I'm like, this is but again,
that's not the kind of journalism that I've done.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
A lot of. I know you've done a lot of these.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Profile paces, these written profile pieces. I haven't done a
lot of the written ones. A lot of the stuff
that I do is you know, on camera. Yeah, you
know a few like shorter writing pieces, but there's like
really in depth, like New Yorker profiles things like that.
I do find it a bit cringe when it's like
like the heck one, the other day. Yeah, like yeah,
(27:12):
the Hailey baby one we met at a cafe and
she swept her clean.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Girl look like yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
It's like, ugh, like pandering.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
And it's like when they go to it's also when
they go like they start writing them like it's a
like a Sweet Valley High novel or something like that
where they're like, blah blah blah, tossed her tossled blonde
curls and stared into the sun. You're like, that's that's
not how real people move about in the world. When
it is good is when like maybe I'm just Sophie
Turner's in my head. But when she was at the
zoo with the writer and she called up the zoo
(27:41):
keeper for being sexist, for one of the animals not
being like given respect because she's a mother, Like this
is journalism. Yeah, this is what I want. I want
ten thousand words on that interaction. I also find it
interesting sometimes when I it's always interesting when you're doing
like a longer into the celebrity and you can tell
that they're really nervous, even if they're really famous. I
find that strange. When I sit down, I'm like, why
(28:03):
are you nervous? Everyone loves you. But then sometimes you
hear celebrities tell the other side, like especially when they've
got to take the journalists out for a day because
they've got a planet, which I think is so funny.
Maybe the celebrities and do it or their team does it,
but like the celebrity has to like plan the day
and plan the outings, and the idea is that they
take a journalist to things they want to do. So
then you're like, Okay, what can I do that's going
(28:25):
to paint me in a great light because they're going
to be recording everything I'm saying, They're going to be
writing about what I'm doing. So it has to be
something fun. It has to be something interactive, it has
to be something we can still talk, and it has
to be something not crazy, like come on my private jet,
unless you're Rihana who sends like a private car at
three am to bring you to the studio. But I
remember Christian Stewart saying that she was like never being
so terrified as when she was doing a profile. And
(28:46):
she's a very avid golfer, so she took the journalist's
golfing with her, thinking that would be like it would
be nice and easy because they could talk and like
she was doing something she felt comfortable doing. But then
she was so of her golf game that day and
she was so nervous and in her head she was like,
you have to do this, like you have to hit
the ball. You cannot, Like she's watching you, She's gonna
write down that you missed it. And I that was
(29:07):
just so funny of like the stress of hosting a celebrity.
It's also why so many celebrities went through a phase
of taking the journalist to pottery classes. Do you remem
that was a huge thing. Yeah, because you kind of
sit together and like, I guess, do the pot and
it would kind of turn out fine. But Busy Phillips
was also saying that when she had to take New
York writer around, she took her to pottery, and then
she realized every other actress was doing the pottery thing
(29:28):
with journalists. Yeah, because she was like, the weird thing
is none of us do pottery in our own time.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Yeah, And I think I think the fear from it
because it's not just about what they've actually said. Yeah,
it's observations people make about you, the way you sit,
the what you order to eat. Everything is scrutinized, and
I think that that's quite scary.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
You know.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
Again, Lena Dunham, who is also quite a divisive figure,
but you know, said Vogue was so focused on her
body that they didn't really talk about her other you know,
accolades that she's had, Like.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
This is do you know what's interesting though? It's all women?
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Yeah, because they're the ones. It's women into me other
women because and I was thinking about this as we
were coming in, and like why does this happen more
with women interviewing other women? And also why do when
I go into an interview the other famous woman, I
feel more pressure, especially if she's outspoken on a topic.
And I think it's because this is like, this is
like our playing field. Like if that journalist is going
(30:25):
into interview Jamila Jamil, I would almost feel the same
way of like the men coming into interview you, they're
not they don't live in the weeds of what you're
talking about like we do. They're talking about things we
talk about with our friends, things that we're facing in
our own lives on a different level. But like body image, misogyny,
things in the workplace, even with some people like balancing
like work and motherhood and fame and like career and
(30:46):
all these sorts of things, and like how you get
treated because of the way you look and all these things.
And I just think men coming into that like they
know it exists, but it's not their world. Whereas like
if I was going in to interview Jamila, I would
be like, I have to get the right answers. I
also have to know when they're deflecting, because this is
like my arena, this is where I live, this is
what my friends and I talk about. So it's like
the stakes are higher, so you go in wanting to
(31:08):
get a bigger answer. So I don't know. I'm sure
half these writers weren't trying to be calculating or anything
like that, but they just went in knowing these women
talk on this and they're correct, but they also talk
on this and they they're not always correct or there's
some issues with how they put these thoughts into the world.
And I'm a woman into uing them for an audience
(31:28):
of predominantly women, and I've got to like do this
for the team at home who's going to be reading
these words.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
Yeah, look, I at the end of it, I understand
I've had a profile piece down on me and I
remember the one quote that for the headline, and I
was like, really.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Oh do you remember it?
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Was? I do?
Speaker 1 (31:48):
I do?
Speaker 3 (31:49):
It was its basically the whole interview was on like
the work that I've done at a and it was
like chatting Tatum is a bit smarming, and that was
what they used as the headline.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Oh, I know, that's hard. That's the kind of thing.
I would probably do it earlier in my career, but
I wouldn't do now. But again I understand because you're like,
that's such a good quote.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
It's a great as a journal by myself.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
I get why they's not encompassing what you said in
the into grabbing.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
But it was this one thing because you know how
people always ask who's the worst?
Speaker 1 (32:14):
The one question?
Speaker 2 (32:15):
And it was like that one thing.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
And I usually try not to say anything negative about
people because again I don't like to judge if it's
unless I've done it multiple times.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
With them, because people can have an off date.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
Yeah, I said, chanting Tatum is a bit smiley, and
it was the headline.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
I mean, the headlines are mean, That's why I get it,
But like it's it is hard because you're just like
you could have let off something and like you could
have had a different headline and just had that in
the piece and it still would have hit.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
But the heart why they did it. I understand why
they did it because that is the grab. That is
the bit that people are going He's going to get
people in because people don't know who I am.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
They want to know. I mean people do. But also
like nothing gets people in faster than any celebrity doing
something wrong. Yeah, or like they beloved celebrity.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
Someone you're going to like say something negative about it.
That's what they're going to pick up on. I should
have done that.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
I know, But you want to answer in the moment.
And then you also, like if you're being profiled or
you're spent or you're doing a long interview, also you're
giving so much content you might not think about the
fact that it's going to be that one comment. But yeah,
I really get it. And what I also thought was
interesting about the Jamilla piece is that she says in
there that one of the reasons she's not doing profiles
with women anymore is because she's becoming more powerful than
(33:24):
traditional media, which I thought was quite interesting.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Well, I mean this is she said.
Speaker 3 (33:29):
That's why she put it on substack and removed the
paywall for the article because she wanted it as many
people to read it as possible. And I think it's
quite possible that this particular article that she wrote will
have more engagement than the actual article that was printed
about her. I mean, at time of recording, we're already
at like, she's got over four hundred comments about this,
(33:52):
there's over three thousand likes on it. She also said
in the comment section. For whatever it's worth, we contacted
her told her how I felt, no apology, no retraction,
no action, humanity is worth less than clickbait.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
I guess, yeah, that's.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
A hard one because in one point, I understand what
Jamila is saying of being like, I'm stopping doing this
because if obviously, traditionally, like if you wanted to reach
a massive amount of people, you went to traditional media,
and now celebrities have their own kind of a media empire,
Like obviously she has a substack, she has a podcast
which she's not recording but is still active. All these things,
(34:26):
but you don't need you can get your message out
there without having to rely on traditional media. So I
understand that. I also don't think that Sunday Time should
have retracted the piece because it's not incorrect? Is the thing?
Speaker 3 (34:37):
Like?
Speaker 1 (34:37):
That's I went through the subtect. I'm like I thought,
before I make a judgment on this, I'm just going
to see if anything that she said in there is
false or not correct. But it's just that she hasn't
liked the bits that are again, which is fair, but
it's not incorrect information. It's just she doesn't agree with
the bits that were chosen and with the interpretation. But
you can't retract that because it's not incorrect.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
Well, exactly exactly, and I it's a really tricky one.
We'll link the substack in our show notes if you
guys want to go have a read of it again,
it's not behind a paywall.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
You can read it. It's an interesting rate, it's a
big Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
I would say read the whole thing though, give you
a lot of information you get.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Through all the context of it.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
Yeah, a very interesting pace by Jamila Joel.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Well, thank you so much for listening to this spill today.
As always, make sure you pop over to our Instagram
account and TikTok with a spill on both to catch
all of our extra content. And The Spill is produced
by Minitia Isswarren with sound production by Scott Stronik Mama
MIAs Studios a style with furniture from Fenton and Fenton.
Visit Fenton and Fenton dot com dot au and we'll
(35:41):
see you back here on your podcast feed at three
pm tomorrow. Bye bye
So much.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and borders
that this podcast is recorded on From Mamma Mia. Welcome
to the Spill your daily pop culture Fix. I'm Laura Brodnick.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
And I'm Cassena Lukitch. And on today's show, we are
talking about a celebrity and renowned feminist who has just
dropped a massive bomb. She has said that she's not
going to be interviewed by female journalists anymore.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
So we're going to get.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Into that, but first we need to talk about two things.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Jam and Rose, yes.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Kind of my two faith things. I mean, Rose is
up there. I'm actually not a jam girl, so maybe
I'm speaking out of turn on this whole thing. I'm
going to weigh in on Jam and a really, but
I've found an expert to help us out.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Unfortunately, this is about Megan Markle again. I know that
we talk about her a lot, but there have it's
been some less than favorable reviews about her latest Jam drop.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Yes, yes, her latest collection. So yeah, that's the thing
about Megamarcaela is like we could cover her on this
podcast every day, every day we record, there is a
story about her, and they're mostly negative because that's what
people are leaning into. So we try and stay out
of the fray as much as possible unless there's something
that pops up where we feel like we could weigh in.
And what's kind of interesting is that because she hasn't
(01:36):
been doing any big public like in person appearances. Her
TV show isn't coming back for a while, she hasn't
launched a new book or anything like that, there's not
been as much for people to kind of nitpick at
about her life and what she and Harry are doing.
Not since we covered her when she posted the very innocent,
very lovely video of her daughter, Lillabette's birth, Yes, and
(01:56):
wanted to celebrate that, and everyone was like, well, that's
a fake pregnancy stomach.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Isn't I know?
Speaker 3 (02:01):
And then like, I mean, the thing is, she's done
a number of podcasts lately, but she's just been torn
to treads by parody accounts on TikTok.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Yeah, but this is.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Primarily about her raspberry jam.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
So basically the raspberry jam that she's had has been
torn to pieces by renowned jam expert Donna Collins.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Yes, I mean who Donna was before that I didn't.
I must confess I'm not educated in this area. I'm
not a part of it. I don't identify as part
of the jam community. So I didn't know there were
jam experts. But she has won this woman, Donna has
one over forty jam competition, so I yes, she is
very qualified to weigh in.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
And the difference between a Jam and Mama later spread
as like coolly like, it seems like this is quite
a big.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
This world is not a faint of heart, like this
is like you think you like jam, this is not
the place for you.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
So Donna said that it's a real disappointment, stating it's
quite disappointing to see Megan marketing a fruit spread, which
essentially is what you create when jam does not succeed.
Collins explains that in a world preserves, a spread is
often a failed jam, too runny to set properly. She
(03:15):
questioned why Markle used pecton a gelling agent, suggesting it
was needed because the product was too liquid, and that's
kind of been the general feedback is that it's very
runny jam.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Again, I'm not a massive jam eater.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
I yeah, I don't love jam, But although Bradwood like
would be very yeah, I no, no jam is like
but also, this is what we found when she first
launched her brand, which is now called as Ever, but
was previously called American Riviera Orchard. It took me a
long time to remember that. So even though that name
has been forbidden now I'm gonna keep saying it. So
(03:48):
she couldn't get the trademark for that. She launched as Ever,
and the big thing was, well, actually the big thing
was remembered when she sent those jam baskets out to
like a select few and everyone was trying to work
out which celebrities were important enough to get the jam
and who got the first jam and it was this
huge thing. And then that was such a big plot
point on her Megan Marchaul with Love megaan Netflix show,
(04:08):
because Mindy Kayling, the People's Princess, was like, hey, megot
who got the most important gem? And Megan was like
so like so shocked, and she was like, I just
thought people want a gem and like there's no number,
there's no hierarchy. I just thought everyone would like them.
The poor sweet innocent girl didn't know the gem drama
that she had unleashed in that moment.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
And it feels like it's kind of like one of
those things of like making tea, Like when Brits make tea,
they get very like defensive over how you make a
cup of tea. And there's something about an America making
a cup of tea that really like offends the Brits.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yeah, it even offended me. And I don't drink tea
like us in the way that people make these.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Cups of tea.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
But I think that that's part of it. But look,
it's all sold out again.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
But there has been these criticism, and we spoke about
this before. Is that is it actually like selling out
or she's just not made a lot of her.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
That's what people are saying today. So the reason Donna
the Gem Expert has been sought for her professional opinion
by the Daily Mail, who you know did reach out
to her and said, can you critique this jam? This
happened also when Megan Michael did her first Jam drop,
A lot of people did the critique of it and
it was quite bad. Like the cut got a number
of people who and they were the ones who had
burned her in that whole big profile they did with her.
(05:24):
So you know, there's a lot of hurt feelings behind
the scenes of that particular article, but they had a
bunch of taste testers who so the jam was bad.
This is her second drop, and yet it all started.
Megan's like very much in her entrepreneurial space right now,
Like she has her own podcast now, which is so
she's pivoted away from like those big celebrity interviews, the
podcast she was originally doing, and now she's interviewing female founders.
(05:47):
She's also going on other people's podcasts to talk about
female being a female founder and is getting torn to
shreds because she said she's a really hard worker who's
really in the weeds. And to be fair to her,
she's talking about being a hard worker in terms of,
like I think she's inferring that she could potentially work
less just because of the money that they have and
the money they could have for deals and things like that,
(06:08):
but she chooses to kind of work around the clock
and be very involved. She's not saying she works harder
than like a nurse or a doctor or something like that,
which is the kind of inflection that people have put
on that. But as she's been in her big entrepreneurial space,
has ever put out their new jobs. So it had
like all the different little like homewhere things you can
buy and the jam, and then she put up an
(06:28):
Instagram story saying it had all sold out almost immediately,
and she made special note of the flower sprinkles you
remember in her Netflix show that was a huge thing.
How everyone was like, no one's going to use those.
And I wonder if, like her post that she put
up was a bit of a dig at that, because
she said, I knew you guys would love those and
they would sell out. But everything has sold out and
most and the jam sold out the quickest, and now
(06:50):
people are saying that it was a fake stock or
that there was never stock to begin with. All that
there's only like ten jars of jams. Of course they
sold out, so they're calling her bluff.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
I don't think that that's like necessarily a bad thing.
If that's a marketing tactic she's done, it's very very common.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
I'm actually starting to feel sorry for her now.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Yeah, I always feel sorry for a little only because it's.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Like constant pylon of her exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
And we've been having this conversation since she came on
the scene so many years ago, like it's this constant
kind of pylon of like she puts out a release
and yes, we find the humor and obviously because like
at first there was the whole thing about which celebrities
had the jam and who had this? And then it
was like and then the jam never appeared for sale
and people like, where's the jam? Megan? You lie to us,
like give us our jam. Then there was a hilarious
(07:36):
moment which wasn't even anything to do with her but jimmer,
when the Palace put out an official statement saying that
they had been selling jam. First, do you remember that?
Speaker 3 (07:43):
No?
Speaker 1 (07:44):
No, because this is.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
So crazy over jam.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Buckingham Palace has a jam. I believe you can buy
it in the gift shop. And after there was that
whole thing of where is Megan Michael's jam And it's
not even jam, it's a preserve like this is years ago.
And then Buckingham Palace, the messy bitches that they are,
put out a statement saying that their jam was world
renound and that's the jam, and they never mentioned Megan
or anything like that. But the timing was so spot
(08:07):
on and suspicious that it was a clear dig at her.
Now this new Dropp has come out and across her socials,
and you can tell she spent so much time making
like her social announcement look beautiful, because that's very her vibe.
Like she's very Instagram kind of curated, yeah, very curated,
like kind of circle like twenty eleven twelve, that very
kind of like you know, put together, like you know,
you can just tell that she's she's a woman who
(08:28):
has just died a little inside when she was in
the Royal Family and she couldn't post like a black
and white picture of an ocean or her avocado toast
in the morning, like that really hurt her. So she's
back on the Instagram train, and all people are really
taking away from it is that she's faked the jam
stock and that this woman Donna, like this one's getting
more press than like the Royal Family or even almost
(08:51):
Megan mikel herself at the moment, like because she put
out this terrible review of Megan Michael's Jam and said
it's fake jam, it's been made badly, and it's got pesticides.
So really, what Donna's trying to say is that Megan
Michael's trying to kill you with jam.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Is oh my god, it's new conspiracy there and you go, well, jam,
the jam is trying to kill you. You, I mean,
this is this is like the crazy thing about all
of this is I've never had a jam expert before.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yeah, I love that, love that love.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
That's very good.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
I would love to see if anyone's tried it.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Yeah, and any of our.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Spiller has tried it and liked it.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
I'm sure Donna like takes her jam critiquing very seriously,
like that is her industry and her passion in her life.
But also maybe she's holding it to a higher standard.
I don't know. She also said I don't believe Megan
mikel is making this jam. That's Donna's accusation. And to that,
I say, yeah, Donna, we don't think she's making the jam,
and no offense. I don't want jam that's come from
Mega michaels like home kitchen with the chickens running in
(09:45):
and out, like I want it to come from a
proper factory where it's all like or it's all like
done properly. But I feel like I can't wait into
the jam. But she is releasing a rose soon, her
very own rose, and that I will weigh it on
because that I feel very confident speaking on.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
I just feel like a Rose brand again.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
It's all very dated, like like everyone was releasing Rose
brands like a decade ago.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Like it feels like.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
It's like she's been pulled back from the limelight for
so long that she's doing all.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
These before she was in the royal family.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Yeah, she's like doing all these things that she wanted
to do a while ago, Like Kylie Minogue's done a Rose,
like everybody, like Man and their Dog has done a Rose,
like the Heinrich sit of Rose.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
I know it's out and about everyone, but I think
she's just doing She's very kind of regressive in a way,
but in a really lovely way where she's she's leaning
back into that cute sea, very curated Instagram world and
releasing her Rose and I kind of love that for her.
But yes, that I do feel like her. Weigh in on.
I'll give Donora a run for her money in the
critiquing stake.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Did we do it a taste test?
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yes, Well it's going to be a limited drop, so
here's we have to do. Set our alarms. You abandoned
your children and husband, and we will sit together and
we will buy the rose the second it comes out.
I feel like that's the only way we can do it.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Jimmila Jamil, activist an actor, has taken a pretty strong
stance on her sub stack recently. Now this happened a
couple of days ago, but it's taken us a while
to sort of digestive. Now, the title of the substack
is I think I'm done with being interviewed by women.
I am disgusted. There is a lot to unpack here now.
(11:21):
Jamila Jamil is, you know, very well known for her
feminism and her activism. If you've seen the good place
she was in that she was a presenter.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
She was born in the UK.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Back in twenty nineteen, was named by Time magazine as
the twenty five most influential people on the Internet. Like,
she has done a lot of really wonderful advocacy work,
particularly in the eating disorder space and feminism and advocating
for women.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Now, the core of.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
This article is basically talking about how she was interviewed
recently by Liz Edwarods for The Sunday Times, and she
basically said she's disgusted by the I'm going to call
it fluff language. That happens around the interview. She basically
says that it has reduced her to you know, all
(12:16):
of her mental health and physical health problems that she had.
It's reduced her to controversies rather than talking about the
good work that she's done. Also, to be clear, she
says that this is only about print journalism, not about
like podcasts or in verbatim articles written by women, So
(12:36):
it's not like she's attacking women.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
I think that's.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
What a lot of people are picking up is, Oh,
she's not going to be interviewed by any female journalist.
There's been a couple of snarky articles following up on
this particular substack, but the core of it is that
she doesn't feel like she has been represented correctly, and
the people focus so strongly on the negative things that
(12:59):
have happened and her quote unquote controversies that they don't
actually focus on the work that she's doing.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Now, yes, I've got to say, like I thought it
was a really interesting take, but I'm a little bit
on the fence about some of the things she's bringing up.
It is important to say, as you're saying that she's
been called out for attacking women or disregarding women, but
she makes some kind of fair point where she says,
I've been in this industry for over twenty years. In
that time, I've been an interviewer at an interviewee. And
(13:27):
she also says that with the number of women that
have interviewed her for prints, she said she can only
name four, and then she listed their names, women who
she feels have done her justice, and this time she says,
but my trust has been broken for the last time.
This is where things get interesting, where she says with
a special thanks to a toothy opinion piece by Liz Edwards,
who was normally the travel writer. I thought was a
(13:48):
good little thing where she's just added that nice little
dig there and then says it's just the straw that's
broken the camel's back. I also thought it was interesting
that she starts off by saying that she found the
experience with Liz like initially very positive. So when I
read that, because you hear of so many different people,
especially very high profile people, who sometimes give their side
of an interview where they feel that they've been slandered
(14:09):
or they haven't been properly represented, and they often talk
about it being like not a great experience. But I
thought it was interesting that Jamilla was saying that she
felt very safe, that she felt like good in the moment,
but what her issue is that she said she gave
over an hour a very thoughtful opinion and background, and
that was all left out on the cutting room floor.
(14:30):
I also thought it was interesting that she was recording
it herself, because she wants the journalist to know that
she's keeping a record and she wants to release it,
but she's going to ask their permission first. So it's
the interview the interview itself. She had a positive experience
with it's with the write up. It's hard to because
when I read the piece, the way that Liz opens
her piece is exactly the way I would have opened it.
(14:52):
And I've done a lot of interview people, a lot
for podcasts and video, but mostly I was a print
journalist for over a decade where I would sit with
the person, and then a lot here at Mama Mia
two doing entertainment interviews where you spend sometimes it's twenty
minutes with the person, sometimes it's a five minute junket.
Sometimes you get a big bulk of time, but you're
writing down what they say. But also what you think.
(15:13):
You're trying to paint.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Painting a picture exactly.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
So I'll write, like sometimes I'll go into a ten
minute interview, but I'll write a two thousand mod piece
on it because I'm using their quotes, but I'm also
talking about how they acted at the premiere the night before,
and like what I saw them do, Like I saw
Cynthia Riever and Ariana Grande sit on the floor together
and they big ball gowns and cry while they watch Wicked.
You know, you see Zendea slip out a side door
during her premiere, and so you put all of that
(15:36):
color in. But then you're also talking about like in
the room, like how do they react when you walked in,
how do they react to your questions? What do they
laugh at? What do they look concerned about? Did they
look off to their PR team? And it's hard because
that's very subjective, Like as a journalist, you're putting your
own thoughts in there, but it might not necessarily mirror
up to what they're saying, which is what Jamelia is
(15:56):
saying here. But it's hard because Liz opens it by saying,
like Jamila Jamil knows that like not everyone's gonna like her,
and then she lists like things that she's done that
are controversies and from a journalist's point of view, like
not to be completely on thess's side, But I under
stand because that's the pointiest part of the story. Yeah,
And the whole point of writing these pieces is to
come in with the biggest quote and then build out
(16:18):
a story and then come in with some background and
then go back in. Whereas Jamal is interpreted, is that
like you've taken the worst things about me and put
it at the top, and you're paraphrasing what I'm thinking,
and you've cut out basically all the activism.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
And I think also what's important is that Jamila Jamil,
while she is famous and well known, there are a lot.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Of people who wouldn't know who she is.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
So I think what Liz is doing is trying to
paint a picture and give us a little bit of
history of who she is before going into, yes, an
in depth interview, which I think is a fair.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
It is fair, But she also didn't do it the
way that you just did it when you introduced Like
when you introduced her, you said you gave credit to
all her different work and things to be fair to Liz,
like she does do that near the top, but she
goes in with like, Jamila Jamil knows that you're probably
not gonna like her kind of vibe. Yeah, So even
though she did say that interview, she probably said it
at the end of their like two hour conversation, Whereas
(17:14):
I understand it's the most interesting thing that she said.
But I'm sure in Jimilla's eyes, she's not introducing her
like you just did with her accolades or her credits.
She's introducing her with this big statement she made, as
that she meant to be an exclamation mark at the
end of the story, not the opener.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
She talked a little.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Bit about how she actually feels like male journalists have
given her more of a fair shot than women, which
felt a little bit.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Pick me for me, right, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Yeah, Which is odd because I actually really like Jamila Jamil.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
I think she has spoken.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
I particularly like her work in eating disorders and bringing
some light to you know, her anarexia during her teen
years that I find I really really respect that work
that she's done, particularly diet culture and things like that.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
But that line, I was like, oh, I don't. I
don't love that.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
I don't love that, but I also do understand where
she's coming from. It's like, sometimes I think women, and
this is what I'm gathering from her experience, they come
in with this agenda, whereas men are more happy to
be particularly because they know she's a feminist. Maybe there's
(18:30):
a bit of fear there to quote unquote challenge her
on what she's done, whereas women would feel more open
to being comfortable doing that.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Exactly where the difference is.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yeah, because she does say a bit in the piece
that she knows that men might have that fear of her,
and it would be quicker and easier, Like she does
say this in her substack, for men to be called
out if they treated her badly at an interview, because
I think there's something like that can be a little
bit more black and white. If a man interviewing her
is like, oh, she talks like this, this and this,
and that would be a very easy thing for the
(19:06):
world as a whole to latch onto. But what she
says is that women are a bit more undefined with
their critiques. They bury it a little bit. And I
also think that that's because I don't know, like, do
women go into these interviews thinking that there's so many
layers here, and like you're doing a disservice to your
readers if you don't pull it the layers. Yeah, Liz
has pointed out some things that she wouldn't have liked,
including the article, that don't paint her in the best light.
(19:28):
But there are things like being nice to the waiter,
or like being nice to the people in the restaurant,
and you almost think like that should be a positive thing,
but she's taken it as being like, well, of course
I would be, why wouldn't I She doesn't like the
fact that the cost of her house was mentioned in
the article. I almost think that that is sometimes quite
important if she's talking about like social injustice and like
(19:49):
those sorts of things to say, like she's coming from
this place. But obviously, again that's subjective. I think the
line that she pulled out that she was quite upset about,
which is the one time I kind of agree with
Jamila that it was painting her in this very specific,
unflattering light, was when she's asking her about well she
did I was just saying she didn't like all her
chronic healths listed because she's like, that's twenty years pretty
(20:12):
much of content of information that she's given listed like that,
and she's like, it makes me look crazy because if
you're not across this. One of the biggest stories around
Jamil and Jamil that used to exist in the dark
corners of the web that have now sort of been
talked about a lot in forums and in articles and
things over the years is that people think she's basically
lying a lot about a lot of her health conditions.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Sad ok this narrative so much.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Yeah, it's and I hate also ha when people say like, no,
but once you look at it, you'll see she's lying.
And I'm like, I've looked at it. I don't believe
she's lying. And also how could you tell well that,
I mean, I won't go into all of it, but
people are saying, like, the list of medical conditions she
says she has sometimes will cancel each other out, or
they'll say, like, she said she had this, but then
(20:58):
the next year she said it was this, And then
they'll also say that these medical conditions can't exist together.
So basically there are places on the Internet where people
have like put together like huge presentations tracing everything she
said about her health for the last twenty years and
basically saying she's lying.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Okay, And I really hate this because it's hard enough
for women to be believed. And we know this, how
long does it take women with endometrios is to be diagnosed?
Like we know that women's health concerns are consistently overlooked
and underprescribed and underrepresented in Like we know that most medical.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Studies were done on men. Yeah, Like this is very
well documented.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
So I think it's actually really disrespectful to question her
on that when she's done nothing but be a very honest,
open activist.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Yeah, exactly, And that's what she said in her substackers
where she was like, I'm happy for people to talk
about my past controversies or things I've said that are
wrong in the past. She's like that, I'm happy to
wait in on that. But in this particular case, she
says that Liz asked her a question and she politely
declined to answer, saying that there's certain areas online like
online controversies. She doesn't like to give oxygen too because
(22:13):
then it blows up again. And she said that she
was very like nice in the moment, and she gave
Liz some more time, and then in the piece, Liz
writes that Jamila's PR team tried to jump in and
stop the interview, and then she said something about once
it was sort of sordid, and they continued on that
Jamila's clause retracted and that's people what kind of set
her off. Yeah, I get that too, because clause retracting
(22:35):
it it's like it's a line of wanting. I don't know.
Part of me is like it's like it was good
writing in terms of like it put you in the moment.
There was tension, and but I guess I'm coming from it.
Where Like when I was reading the Sunday Times piece,
I was so in like this is Liz's interpretation, that
it didn't color what I think of Jamilla. Yeah, because
I was so in the mindset of like, this is
(22:56):
one woman's interpretation of her, Whereas if you're maybe just
a general punter who's picking up the newspaper, that would
have made you hate Jamilla. So I kind of understand
why she was up.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
Yeah, and I think the thing is, like, you know,
she says, she politely declined, but we both know when
you ask a celebrity something and they politely decline.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
It is a real hit to the ego.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
It does actually like I've had it happen.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
To me before, where I like asked, you know, the publicist,
is it okay? If I asked this question. I asked
the question, they shut me down. The publicist jumped in
and I was like, oh, and then it feels really awkward.
It like taints the rest of the interview. So I
can kind of understand if that's where she's like feeling
that tension, because it does. It feels uncomfortable when someone
(23:38):
like rejects your advances. And my biggest thing is I
don't like making people feel uncomfortable when I interview them.
I want people to feel like open and honest and
like I am not here to get like gotcha, like
got your journalism. My vibe never has been. But I
think probably she's like got her garter. She says no,
(23:58):
thank you, and this journalist has gone, oh, well fuck you.
Then I'm going to say you put your claws away.
It feels a bit again.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
That feels caddy to me.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Yeah, yeah, it definitely. It was a moment where it
definitely was a moment where she kind of showed her
hand of what she was thinking. It is a hard
thing because when the journalists and a celebrity sit down
to do an interview, you're sitting down really to almost
have like as much as sometimes they're lovely and you're lovely,
Like again, I'm the same. I'm never trying to get
like a gotcha moment, but I also want a really
good soundblade, I want a good hook. You're sitting down
(24:29):
to almost play this game of chess, but you're acting
like best friends.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
All the time.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
It's like, Hi, how are you? How are you? And
it's weird because you're both acting you don't know each other.
It's a weird situation because usually you have about ten
people watching you, and it's mostly their team that are
there to protect them. So like as the journalists, you
feel like you're facing off against ten people, but at
the same time, they're very aware that you're taking what
they say and putting it in a public forum. So
(24:55):
if anyone's gonna be at a loss, it's going to
be the celebrity. So you have the power in that way,
and you're sitting there and you're having this dance back
and forth of like how much I'll give you what
I'm going to say, can I trick you into this?
That sort of back and forth, and so it is
really it's such an unnatural, weird situation to be in,
and it's always formed as like we had a chat.
(25:15):
I'm like, this isn't a chat. This is a battlefield.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
Jamilla is not the first person to complain. I don't
want to say complain because I think that sounds whiny
and bitchy. This is she's not the first person to,
you know, critique some of these profile pieces. We've had
a number of other celebrities who have critiqued these profile pieces. Now,
to be clear, we're talking about written profile pieces, usually
those like long ones like Vanity Fair, Vogue, sort of
(25:44):
the primary ones where you think about these like big
profile pieces.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Because they're the ones that are not just the Q
and A or anything like that. They're the one, as
we were saying, where the journalist puts their interpretation and
their thoughts. And I met.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
Jamilla at a cafe based downtown in Los Angeles. She
ordered a macho latte. I ordered the coffee you can
picture it in.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Sometimes I like, my favorite thing is and also I've
done this, I know. I'm also like a person who's
you know, I'm not innocent here, but I love almost
writing intro before I go read these big profiles in
my head, because I'll be like blah blah blah like
Sophie Turana, like strodes into the cafe. She's tried to
look casual, but her blonde curls are cascading down her back.
She sits down at a table and adjust her mohair
(26:31):
white sweater, looking older than her twenty five. It just
go and then with just a beaming smile to the waiter,
she orders a chill glass of water. One slice, and
you're just like, oh my, like this.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
I know those actually give me like the ick that
of them too much color. I'm like, this is but again,
that's not the kind of journalism that I've done.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
A lot of. I know you've done a lot of these.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Profile paces, these written profile pieces. I haven't done a
lot of the written ones. A lot of the stuff
that I do is you know, on camera. Yeah, you
know a few like shorter writing pieces, but there's like
really in depth, like New Yorker profiles things like that.
I do find it a bit cringe when it's like
like the heck one, the other day. Yeah, like yeah,
(27:12):
the Hailey baby one we met at a cafe and
she swept her clean.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Girl look like yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
It's like, ugh, like pandering.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
And it's like when they go to it's also when
they go like they start writing them like it's a
like a Sweet Valley High novel or something like that
where they're like, blah blah blah, tossed her tossled blonde
curls and stared into the sun. You're like, that's that's
not how real people move about in the world. When
it is good is when like maybe I'm just Sophie
Turner's in my head. But when she was at the
zoo with the writer and she called up the zoo
(27:41):
keeper for being sexist, for one of the animals not
being like given respect because she's a mother, Like this
is journalism. Yeah, this is what I want. I want
ten thousand words on that interaction. I also find it
interesting sometimes when I it's always interesting when you're doing
like a longer into the celebrity and you can tell
that they're really nervous, even if they're really famous. I
find that strange. When I sit down, I'm like, why
(28:03):
are you nervous? Everyone loves you. But then sometimes you
hear celebrities tell the other side, like especially when they've
got to take the journalists out for a day because
they've got a planet, which I think is so funny.
Maybe the celebrities and do it or their team does it,
but like the celebrity has to like plan the day
and plan the outings, and the idea is that they
take a journalist to things they want to do. So
then you're like, Okay, what can I do that's going
(28:25):
to paint me in a great light because they're going
to be recording everything I'm saying, They're going to be
writing about what I'm doing. So it has to be
something fun. It has to be something interactive, it has
to be something we can still talk, and it has
to be something not crazy, like come on my private jet,
unless you're Rihana who sends like a private car at
three am to bring you to the studio. But I
remember Christian Stewart saying that she was like never being
so terrified as when she was doing a profile. And
(28:46):
she's a very avid golfer, so she took the journalist's
golfing with her, thinking that would be like it would
be nice and easy because they could talk and like
she was doing something she felt comfortable doing. But then
she was so of her golf game that day and
she was so nervous and in her head she was like,
you have to do this, like you have to hit
the ball. You cannot, Like she's watching you, She's gonna
write down that you missed it. And I that was
(29:07):
just so funny of like the stress of hosting a celebrity.
It's also why so many celebrities went through a phase
of taking the journalist to pottery classes. Do you remem
that was a huge thing. Yeah, because you kind of
sit together and like, I guess, do the pot and
it would kind of turn out fine. But Busy Phillips
was also saying that when she had to take New
York writer around, she took her to pottery, and then
she realized every other actress was doing the pottery thing
(29:28):
with journalists. Yeah, because she was like, the weird thing
is none of us do pottery in our own time.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Yeah, And I think I think the fear from it
because it's not just about what they've actually said. Yeah,
it's observations people make about you, the way you sit,
the what you order to eat. Everything is scrutinized, and
I think that that's quite scary.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
You know.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
Again, Lena Dunham, who is also quite a divisive figure,
but you know, said Vogue was so focused on her
body that they didn't really talk about her other you know,
accolades that she's had, Like.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
This is do you know what's interesting though? It's all women?
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Yeah, because they're the ones. It's women into me other
women because and I was thinking about this as we
were coming in, and like why does this happen more
with women interviewing other women? And also why do when
I go into an interview the other famous woman, I
feel more pressure, especially if she's outspoken on a topic.
And I think it's because this is like, this is
like our playing field. Like if that journalist is going
(30:25):
into interview Jamila Jamil, I would almost feel the same
way of like the men coming into interview you, they're
not they don't live in the weeds of what you're
talking about like we do. They're talking about things we
talk about with our friends, things that we're facing in
our own lives on a different level. But like body image, misogyny,
things in the workplace, even with some people like balancing
like work and motherhood and fame and like career and
(30:46):
all these sorts of things, and like how you get
treated because of the way you look and all these things.
And I just think men coming into that like they
know it exists, but it's not their world. Whereas like
if I was going in to interview Jamila, I would
be like, I have to get the right answers. I
also have to know when they're deflecting, because this is
like my arena, this is where I live, this is
what my friends and I talk about. So it's like
the stakes are higher, so you go in wanting to
(31:08):
get a bigger answer. So I don't know. I'm sure
half these writers weren't trying to be calculating or anything
like that, but they just went in knowing these women
talk on this and they're correct, but they also talk
on this and they they're not always correct or there's
some issues with how they put these thoughts into the world.
And I'm a woman into uing them for an audience
(31:28):
of predominantly women, and I've got to like do this
for the team at home who's going to be reading
these words.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
Yeah, look, I at the end of it, I understand
I've had a profile piece down on me and I
remember the one quote that for the headline, and I
was like, really.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Oh do you remember it?
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Was? I do?
Speaker 1 (31:48):
I do?
Speaker 3 (31:49):
It was its basically the whole interview was on like
the work that I've done at a and it was
like chatting Tatum is a bit smarming, and that was
what they used as the headline.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Oh, I know, that's hard. That's the kind of thing.
I would probably do it earlier in my career, but
I wouldn't do now. But again I understand because you're like,
that's such a good quote.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
It's a great as a journal by myself.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
I get why they's not encompassing what you said in
the into grabbing.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
But it was this one thing because you know how
people always ask who's the worst?
Speaker 1 (32:14):
The one question?
Speaker 2 (32:15):
And it was like that one thing.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
And I usually try not to say anything negative about
people because again I don't like to judge if it's
unless I've done it multiple times.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
With them, because people can have an off date.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
Yeah, I said, chanting Tatum is a bit smiley, and
it was the headline.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
I mean, the headlines are mean, That's why I get it,
But like it's it is hard because you're just like
you could have let off something and like you could
have had a different headline and just had that in
the piece and it still would have hit.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
But the heart why they did it. I understand why
they did it because that is the grab. That is
the bit that people are going He's going to get
people in because people don't know who I am.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
They want to know. I mean people do. But also
like nothing gets people in faster than any celebrity doing
something wrong. Yeah, or like they beloved celebrity.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
Someone you're going to like say something negative about it.
That's what they're going to pick up on. I should
have done that.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
I know, But you want to answer in the moment.
And then you also, like if you're being profiled or
you're spent or you're doing a long interview, also you're
giving so much content you might not think about the
fact that it's going to be that one comment. But yeah,
I really get it. And what I also thought was
interesting about the Jamilla piece is that she says in
there that one of the reasons she's not doing profiles
with women anymore is because she's becoming more powerful than
(33:24):
traditional media, which I thought was quite interesting.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Well, I mean this is she said.
Speaker 3 (33:29):
That's why she put it on substack and removed the
paywall for the article because she wanted it as many
people to read it as possible. And I think it's
quite possible that this particular article that she wrote will
have more engagement than the actual article that was printed
about her. I mean, at time of recording, we're already
at like, she's got over four hundred comments about this,
(33:52):
there's over three thousand likes on it. She also said
in the comment section. For whatever it's worth, we contacted
her told her how I felt, no apology, no retraction,
no action, humanity is worth less than clickbait.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
I guess, yeah, that's.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
A hard one because in one point, I understand what
Jamila is saying of being like, I'm stopping doing this
because if obviously, traditionally, like if you wanted to reach
a massive amount of people, you went to traditional media,
and now celebrities have their own kind of a media empire,
Like obviously she has a substack, she has a podcast
which she's not recording but is still active. All these things,
(34:26):
but you don't need you can get your message out
there without having to rely on traditional media. So I
understand that. I also don't think that Sunday Time should
have retracted the piece because it's not incorrect? Is the thing?
Speaker 3 (34:37):
Like?
Speaker 1 (34:37):
That's I went through the subtect. I'm like I thought,
before I make a judgment on this, I'm just going
to see if anything that she said in there is
false or not correct. But it's just that she hasn't
liked the bits that are again, which is fair, but
it's not incorrect information. It's just she doesn't agree with
the bits that were chosen and with the interpretation. But
you can't retract that because it's not incorrect.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
Well, exactly exactly, and I it's a really tricky one.
We'll link the substack in our show notes if you
guys want to go have a read of it again,
it's not behind a paywall.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
You can read it. It's an interesting rate, it's a
big Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
I would say read the whole thing though, give you
a lot of information you get.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Through all the context of it.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
Yeah, a very interesting pace by Jamila Joel.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Well, thank you so much for listening to this spill today.
As always, make sure you pop over to our Instagram
account and TikTok with a spill on both to catch
all of our extra content. And The Spill is produced
by Minitia Isswarren with sound production by Scott Stronik Mama
MIAs Studios a style with furniture from Fenton and Fenton.
Visit Fenton and Fenton dot com dot au and we'll
(35:41):
see you back here on your podcast feed at three
pm tomorrow. Bye bye
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