11: Fight for Justice

In this episode, the people you haven’t heard from yet make an appearance and provide critical clues, which makes The Truth About Amy much clearer. Also, a distant relative of David Simmons comes forward with some startling details about some disturbing incidents she witnessed, in the months prior to Amy’s death.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast contains information and details relating to suicide. We
urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline on
thirteen eleven fourteen thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at
lifeline dot org dot au.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
We also warn listeners that this episode contains graphic content.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
A twenty four year old devoted mother of two fleeing
a violent relationship as a mom bags packed car, running,
her daughters strapped into the backseat.

Speaker 3 (00:50):
Mom told me that she needed to go back inside
to grab something.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
Panic.

Speaker 4 (00:56):
Amy is dead, Sir Amys dead?

Speaker 1 (00:58):
Eight confusion out five minutes.

Speaker 5 (01:00):
They said that it's a suicide. One hundred percent. This
is a murdercy.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
What do you think is really the honest truth about Amy?

Speaker 6 (01:11):
The Truth about Amy?

Speaker 2 (01:21):
Episode eleven.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
I'm Liam Bartlett.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
And I'm Alison Sany.

Speaker 7 (01:33):
It's not too late to soul, you know. I think
FAY should never be an option. So it's about getting
a new set of I was having a look at it,
making a list of avenues of inquirers, things that need
to be done.

Speaker 2 (01:48):
This is Ron Dall's in an interview we did with
him in twenty nineteen when we were investigating the disappearance
of Marion Barter and chasing a copy of the brief
of evidence for her family.

Speaker 8 (02:00):
Always in the file, and he was right.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
We don't have the brief of Evidence on Amy Wensley,
but we have access to an awful lot of documents
that were in it, which we've shared with you throughout
this podcast. And as I'm sure you'll agree, the amount
of indisputable facts that were either ignored or overlooked is astonishing.

(02:25):
But wait, there's more. We've seen a copy of the
full report of Operation Mix, the cold case inquiry undertaken
in twenty eighteen. Ahead of the inquest, Here are some
excerpts from statements made by various witnesses at the time,
many of whom you haven't heard from yet. Starting with

(02:48):
Senior Constable Ian Roberts.

Speaker 9 (02:51):
I'm a senior constable attached to Mondaydon Police Station in
the Peel District. On Thursday twenty sixth of June twenty fourteen,
I was on duty with Constable Larry Blandford and Constable
Pip Dixon that day. We were requested to attend a
two forty eight concerned for welfare at twenty seven eighty
three Southwestern Highways Serpentine. We took a Priority two and

(03:12):
headed out to this location at the front gate at
about seventeen forty hours. At the front gate was the
father of the complainant, Robert Simmons and Gareth Price. Blandford
had had previous dealings with Gareth and knew him. Mister
Simmons told us that the deceased was within the house
just up the drive. The drive to the lower property
was about one kilometer long, going uphill, the last few

(03:35):
hundred meters being gravel. Two vehicles were situated outside the property.
In the white ute, there lay a twenty two rifle
across the front passenger seat. I entered the property, had
a quick look. I saw what looked to be a
female in a black top, black jeans and black boots
slumped behind the door. It was a bit tight to
enter as her foot was against the door. The body

(03:57):
had a blue towel over the head covering the wounds.
At this time, the tower was left in place and untouched.
I could see that her right hand was under her
bottom and her left resting in her lap. On the bedside.
To the left were two fourteen gaged shotgun cartridges. One
was live and the other spent. I also saw that
there was a side by side double barrel shotgun lying

(04:19):
by the side of the bed and it was pointing
barrel toward the deceased. It was about two meters away
from the deceased. I could see that it had blood
spatterings around the front of both barrels. Next to the
bedside cabinet, there was a pink rifle leaning up against
the wall in the corner. In the far corner of
the room, next to the other bedside cabinet was another

(04:39):
shotgun leaning up against the wall. In the wardrobe, another
rifle was leaning against the inner wall, and several boxes
of ammunition, both shotgun and twenty two could be seen
on the upper shelf. Sergeant Kirkman explained that he and
his partner had come to the conclusion that it was
a non suspicious suicide, stating that they thought the deceased
had pulled the tree trigger using her left hand by

(05:02):
pressing the butt of the gun against the bed and
leaning over her left arm. I then tried to tell
Sergeant Kirkman that I did not agree with him, and
stated that it would be almost if not impossible, for
a slight girl of her size to be able to
reach over her body and pull the trigger with her
left hand, and demonstrated that even my arm was not
long enough to reach the trigger. I also mentioned that

(05:24):
her natural trigger finger would have been her right hand,
which was situated under her bottom, so could not have
been used. Sergeant Kirkman dismissed these facts, and his partner
agreed with him. First Constable Blandford again tried to explain
that for a person to shoot themselves, they would have
had to be seated with the butt of the weapon
against the ground and the barrel in their face. Sergeant

(05:46):
Kirkman replied that she was shot from the side of
the head. First Constable Blandford stated that there is no
female capable of holding the shotgun to the side of
their own head and pulling the trigger, certainly not with
their right hand trapped under the bottom. Sergeant Kirkman answered
by saying she must have leant sidewards into the barrel.

Speaker 2 (06:09):
Constable Pip Dixon, now Senior Constable More, gives her account
of what happened on the night Amy died in a
statement dated tenth of January twenty eighteen.

Speaker 10 (06:19):
I could see that Constable Blandford was trying to access
the bedroom on the right, but he couldn't open the
door properly. The door was only able to be opened
maybe forty centimeters. We had to push the door fairly
hard to allow entry, and we still had to squeeze
through the door space. I don't know if this caused
the decease to move. The decease was located behind the
door space in a seated position on the floor. She

(06:41):
was seated in the corner against the wardrobe and the
wall in the small space behind the door. She was
facing the door and her left foot was pressed against
the door. There was blood and brain matter on the
wall behind and to the side of her. There was
a blue towel covering her upper body. Her right hand
appeared wedged under her run upper thigh, and her left

(07:01):
hand was visible resting across her lap. There were two
firearms near the deceased. One was pointed facing her about
a meter away, lying on the ground. The firearm lying
on the ground was brown and silver, and I could
see a couple of blood drops on the barrel. There
was another pink and black rifle leaning between the bedside
table and the wall near the bed.

Speaker 2 (07:21):
Pitt Dixon remembers seeing Nancy arrive.

Speaker 10 (07:24):
Nancy was getting hysterical. From where we were positioned, I
could see the ambulance parked near the house. Nancy asked
if the ambulance was tending to Amy. Then she asked
if Amy was dead. I just nodded my head and
said I'm so sorry.

Speaker 2 (07:38):
Then David Simmons arrives.

Speaker 10 (07:40):
Nancy started yelling at Simmons. Nancy said, this is all
your fault. You're drinking. You've caused this. We were standing
in the driveway on the right hand side of the vehicles.
I held onto Nancy's elbow, but I let her yell.
Simmons was being held by Price. Simmons was yelling back
at Nancy, but I couldn't make out exactly what he
was saying until he got a bit angry and yelled.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
I didn't shoot myself in the fucking head.

Speaker 10 (08:02):
I took Nancy back to her car and asked Constable
Blandford to stay with her. I approached Price and David Simmons.
David Simmons smelled heavily of alcohol. He was emotional, crying
and yelling, and kept walking back and forth close to
the road. When he walked near the road price would
grab him. At six ten PM, I asked David Simmons
for his full details and his children's details. At six

(08:24):
sixteen PM, I cautioned David Simmons and said, before I
speak to you, I'm going to caution you. You're not
obliged to say anything unless you wish to do so.
But anything you do say or do may be taken
down in writing and may later be given in evidence.
Do you understand this?

Speaker 1 (08:41):
Simmons said, just lock me up. I prefer to be
in jail. Now we have Detective Kirkman in twenty eighteen
who now acknowledges she couldn't have possibly used her left
hand to shoot herself, and is now trying to explain
how it must have been done with her her right hand.

Speaker 8 (09:01):
The fingers of her right hand was under her right
buttock and her left hand was in her lap. The
deceased appeared to have died where she was. There was
no indication that she'd been moved there from another place.
There were no drag marks of blood trails leading to
where she was seated. The blood appeared reasonably fresh, and
while there was some congealing, it wasn't dry. So based

(09:24):
on my observations. It is my opinion that she pulled
the trigger with her right hand. I believe her hand
could have ended up under the buttock as a result
of the force of the impact of the shot from
the shotgun, pushing her body into the wall, and then
her body settling back down onto her right hand. Other
possibilities I considered included that the opening of the bedroom door,

(09:49):
twitching after death, or persons that had tended to the
deceased inadvertently pushed her hand under her buttock. In the
left back corner was a twenty two caliber rifle. In
the right back corner was a double barrel twelve gage shotgun,
and in the far corner of the wardrobe was a
high powered rifle. On the left bedside table was one

(10:10):
spent one live four to ten shotgun round.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
In all, five guns were seized. They include Amy's Pink
Savage twenty two, the Boito four to ten used to
kill her, and the three to eight Ruger twelve game,
all of which belonged to Simmons and were found in
the bedroom where Amy's body was while Simmons Browning twenty

(10:40):
two was found by police in the back of his ute.
They also seized a large crossbow in the shed. Now,
the location of these guns is important, and in one
of the documents that we have they described each of
them in detail, but only one is described as being

(11:00):
fitted with a telescopic sight, and that's the three to
eight Ruger twelve gage. You may already recognize the significance
of this, Asnya described it as being the one that
she saw Simmons return to the mirror cupboard in the
bedroom Amy was in while waiting in the backseat of

(11:21):
the car with Tay. Initially, Simmons denied going to the
bedroom where Amy was in the moments leading up to
her death, but when directly asked about this at the inquest,
he said he couldn't remember. Kirkman goes on to list
inconsistencies between statements made on the night by David Simmons

(11:46):
and Gareth Price.

Speaker 8 (11:48):
Simmons not mentioning the demanding of the phone, Simmons doesn't
mention being called a liar by the deceased. Simmons put
the physical altercation with the deceased and the mirror in
the bedroom. Price's statement identifies the hallway. Simmons doesn't mention
hearing the tyranium smashing, but Price does. Price mentioned Simmons

(12:08):
starting and switching off the engine to the motor vehicle,
Simmons does not. Simmons states he went out and told
Price what he saw in the bedroom. However, Price states
he followed Simmons into the room. Simmons states the shotgun
was about one meter away from the deceased, However, Price
says it was resting on her leg. The scene diagrammed

(12:28):
by Simmons has the deceased position reversed. These inconsistencies don't
show a pattern of untruths, but two different perceptions and
recollections of the same traumatic event. It was also ascertained
from police startup the deceased was the holder of a
valid firearms license. Simmons had no history of violent offenses,

(12:50):
and there were no domestic violence incidences between Simmons and
the deceased, but.

Speaker 1 (12:56):
By the time Cold Case was compiling its report in
twenty eighteen, Simmons did have a history of violent offenses.
Next is police sergeant at Munda. John Police Station, Bron
Joseph Umbrius, who spoke about arresting Simmons on the thirtieth

(13:19):
of June twenty fourteen.

Speaker 11 (13:21):
We arrived just before nine point thirty and walked to
the back of the house where a group of persons
were sitting and standing around a fire. I observed a
mail person standing near a tree away from the group,
with his back turned to me. I approached this male person,
who I believe to be David Robert Simmons, and spoke
with him briefly before Detective Sergeant Evans joined us. Detective

(13:41):
Sergeant Evans confirmed this person's name was David Simmons and
advised him he was under arrest for murder. Detective Sergeant
Evans requested that he place his hands out in front
of him and that he was going to be handcuffed,
and Simmons complied. I placed a set of handcuffs onto
both wrists of Simmons, ensuring that I were suitably loose
enough and locked into position properly. Detective Sergeant Evans and

(14:04):
I walked Simmons from the backyard to the front of
the property and near the back corner of the police vehicle.
During this time, Simmons appeared to be affected by alcohol.
He was questioning and at times argumentative and disrespectful. Detective
Sergeant Evans commenced, providing Simmons with his rights. He managed
to advise Simmons that he had the right to contact
a lawyer. However, by that point Simmons continued to interrupt

(14:28):
and be argumentative, and we placed him into the back
of a security pod of my police vehicle. I told
Simmons that we would give him two minutes and would
speak with him again. After two minutes lapsed, I opened
the door and he continued to interrupt and be argumentative.
I introduced myself advised that I was sergeant at Mundijong
Police Station. However, he became verbally abusive, saying I don't

(14:51):
give a fuck fuck you. With his presenting demeanor, it
was not practical to continue to try and explain the
remainder of his rights. As I started to close the
the door, he deliberately placed one of his boots in
the gap between the door and the frame of the
security pod, resisting the door closure. With the assistance of
Constable Aaron Reichstein, we overcame his resistance, closed the door

(15:12):
to the security pod, and he kicked the inside the
door several times.

Speaker 1 (15:16):
At the inquest, Sergeant brad Nyand acknowledges the fact that
there was no blood staining on the clothing of Gareth
Price or David Simmons.

Speaker 12 (15:27):
I assume it's obvious that it's problematic that there had
been some time before the clothes were seized and tested.

Speaker 1 (15:33):
Yes, and get this, No fingerprints, partial or otherwise were
found on the rifle which killed Amy, even though we know,
of course that at least three people touched it, including Amy,
Gareth Price and Robert Simmons. Here he's questioned by counsel

(15:54):
assisting the family, Peter Ward.

Speaker 13 (15:57):
Would it surprise you that from all those three interactions,
plus whatever interaction there was when Miss Wensley was killed,
there's not a single ridge detail able to be detected
in the laser examination.

Speaker 14 (16:09):
Not really because of the amount of disturbance to the
surface from the time as I understand it, to being
placed in the armory at Munda John Police station. But
it stands to reason if you've got physical evidence, that
physical evidence can be removed if there is additional contact.

Speaker 13 (16:22):
Might it be the case that any prince that were
on there could have been removed by the weapon having
been wiped possibly quite possibly?

Speaker 1 (16:29):
The coroner dismissed this in her findings.

Speaker 15 (16:33):
Sergeant Nind gave evidence that Sometimes it is known that
people have touched an object, but no fingerprints will be
found on examination. Therefore, the absence of evidence of fingerprints,
despite that a number of people had touched the shotgun,
did not necessarily suggest the shotgun had been wiped clean
before being seized by the police. So an absence of
fingerprints is not conclusive in any way.

Speaker 1 (16:58):
Not conclusive in any way. The owner of the Serpentine
Falls roadhouse, Robert Ibbotson, also provided evidence. His statement is
dated Friday twenty seven of June twenty seventeen. He was
standing near Simmons when he made the triple zero call,

(17:19):
and in a statement he described him as calm, just
a little bit edgy and nervous, but not crying. At
the inquest, he elaborated on this, confirming neither Simmons nor
Gareth Price.

Speaker 16 (17:31):
Were crying visibly, really upset or a blubbering mess by
any means, but they were nervous and apprehensive now.

Speaker 1 (17:39):
Rick Kirk, Nancy's husband, also made a statement saying he
believed Simmons was very jealous and short tempered and could
not handle his alcohol. Rick also told them about the
conversation he had with Amy a week before she died,
where she said Simmons had held a knife to her throat.

Speaker 17 (18:02):
When he was drunk around me and my family, he'd
be very civil, but he was drinking with his mates,
it'd become quite nasty and out of control. Example David's jealousy.
He was accusing Amy for cracking onto his dad, Robert Simmons.
I mean David to get very jealous of people looking
at Amy when they're at the pups. It s nap

(18:24):
and it'd take him a long time to calm him down.

Speaker 1 (18:27):
Here, Rick Kirk is referring to an incident he witnessed
where Simmons verbally attacked Amy after she made a throwaway
comment that his father, Robert was a good looking older man.
Upon hearing this, Simmons accused Amy of wanting to, in
his words, root him. Sound familiar. It's similar to what

(18:50):
Amy's friend Shelley Stanley recalls Simmons saying to her when
she told him to be nicer to Amy. There's a
list of the uncooperative witnesses Caide Sonice, Matthew Donovan, Alison Merrema,
and Raymond Ernest mcirree. They also tracked down Gavin Totten,

(19:15):
who is Shelley Stanley's former partner. In a statement, Totten
said he knew Amy and Simmons for five or six years,
and they would camp together regularly with their children. He
admits initially thinking Amy's death was a suspicious suicide, but

(19:35):
changed his mind after speaking to Simmons and Price. This
is what he told investigators.

Speaker 18 (19:42):
Simmo was a huge drinker. He would drink every day,
copious amounts of alcohol. He would easily put away a carton.
Never saw Simma using drugs. But I wasn't born yesterday either,
so I could tell when there was a change in
his behavior. He went a bit funny. After what happened,

(20:03):
he came across like he may have been on the
gear or something like that. Probably on meth, I would say,
But I never saw him using drugs of any kind.
It was probably going on for about six months before
Amy died that I thought he must have started using

(20:24):
drugs or something. Simo went off the radar for a bit,
so I started hanging out with Gareth a bit more,
going hunting and stuff with him. That's when he told
me what had happened on that day.

Speaker 1 (20:39):
When asked about Amy and simmons relationship, he said this.

Speaker 18 (20:44):
There was never anything that made me think they were
having any issues at all. Simo never ever mentioned anything
that made me think there were issues between them. Sima
was pretty wiry, I mean, like in the head. He
was a bit all over the place. But I never
saw him hitter or anything like that. When he was working,

(21:06):
he was good and off the gear, but he was
in and out of work a fair bit.

Speaker 1 (21:11):
At the end of the interview, Totten was asked to
review the statement and if he agreed with it. He
said he did, but he wouldn't sign it. Ray McCary,
according to Joshua Brdon, is the one who eventually told
him about Amy's death. Initially, he said mckeary told him

(21:36):
in person, then he changed that to being via text.
If the name McCary rings a bell, that's because he's
the brother of Gareth Price's ex wife, Rachel and Renee,
who you'll recall sent Rachel this message on Facebook.

Speaker 3 (21:57):
Rachel, you're a give up dogs.

Speaker 15 (21:58):
I no longer have a sister.

Speaker 5 (22:00):
It's gloves off.

Speaker 19 (22:00):
When I see you next, maggot, I'll be coming for you,
So take your big hole and fuck off somewhere for good.

Speaker 1 (22:05):
You cold case detectives managed to draft a statement according
to what McKee told them, but despite several attempts, they
were unable to find him again to sign it. He
claimed he couldn't recall meeting Simmons or Price in the
days following the shooting, and never asked them about it

(22:28):
out of respect. He said he associated with Price about
once a fortnight and Simmons once a month. In the end,
Cold Case concluded the information he provided them wasn't that
significant anyway. Then there's Cad Snise, the one who went

(22:48):
pig shooting with Brydon around midnight the night Amy was killed.
He at the very least would be able to account
for Bridon's movements, but advised Cold Case investigators he did
not wish to get involved. So that was that. But
a few things that they didn't reference or seemed to

(23:10):
see as relevant is the fact that the clothes they
provided to police they were supposedly wearing at the time
Amy died, didn't have any gun residue on them, despite
having been shooting that afternoon. Whenever Operation Mix had problems
understanding discrepancies or anomalies, they continued with the same explanation

(23:36):
provided by detectives on that night that it was all
subjective to individuals, and they found nothing suspicious about the
varying descriptions provided by Simmons and Price of what happened
when Amy was shot, such as them driving to the

(23:58):
roadhouse to call Triples zero, even though Simmons' father says
he almost always worked from home and there was a
landline at the main house. Subsequently, on the twenty sixth
of August twenty nineteen, the Cold Case Homicide Squad determined

(24:20):
that Amy died either of a self inflicted gunshot, deliberate
gunshot by another person, or the gun was accidentally discharged
by Amy or another person. That was signed by Detective
Sergeant AA Giles, and it was the same finding as

(24:42):
Deputy State Coroner Sarah Linton made two years later.

Speaker 2 (25:00):
This home video shows David and Amy at a pool party.
They seem happy enough, but there's always an edged David
and Amy treads carefully around him lest something sets him off.
In twenty eleven, she told her best friend Erin in
a text that she was mad with herself because she
loved Simmons and felt weak as she was on her

(25:21):
way home to talk to him. However, after the car accident.
As she became stronger again physically, she also regained her
strength of character. Not long before her death, Amy said
the Serpentine property she was living with David at was
her bush hell. Amy knew what she had to do

(25:44):
for her girl's and there was no going back this time.
According to Nancy, who was referring to that phone call
she had with Amy following that last fight, Amy was
hysterical as she told her he had thrown her around
the room.

Speaker 19 (26:02):
The crowd.

Speaker 2 (26:05):
By the end of the phone call, Nancy says, Amy
had calmed down and tells her determinedly.

Speaker 5 (26:10):
I'll see you soon. I will come.

Speaker 2 (26:14):
When you look at everything they were privy to, it's
difficult to see how they could have ignored the obvious
signs of a desperate, domestic violent situation. After all, this
was only ten years ago. Since starting this podcast, we've
had many people reach out to us with information about
what David Simmons and his mates had been up to

(26:36):
since Amy died, including the things they've reportedly said to
other people about Amy's death.

Speaker 1 (26:45):
One of those people is a friend who says she
encouraged Amy to leave him after witnessing several incidents.

Speaker 2 (26:54):
I start recording excellent Thank you now.

Speaker 1 (26:57):
Al recently caught up with her, and she agreed to
be interviewed, but has asked to only be referred to
by her nickname maun So.

Speaker 3 (27:06):
I met Amy many years ago at when she was
working at a pub in Armadale. I met her free
there and then obviously she started seeing David, and I
know David because he's somewhat related to the family, and yeah,
just blossom from there. I'd see her at a family

(27:27):
events as well, and then we just pretty much got
close pretty fast.

Speaker 2 (27:32):
What did you think of their relationship? What did you witness?

Speaker 3 (27:36):
Amy loved Simo, you know, like she explained many times,
like she never loved anyone before. She knew that he
had his problems, and you know, I guess she felt
like she could help. But Simili, on the other hand,
it was you know, more than one times, you know,
verbally aggressive.

Speaker 20 (27:57):
With Amy.

Speaker 5 (27:58):
You know, he's just disrespect actual.

Speaker 3 (28:00):
The way their relationship was was as if he was
a boss.

Speaker 5 (28:05):
You know, she does as he says.

Speaker 3 (28:07):
And yes, there was a few things that she, you know,
would come to me and say that she wasn't happy about.

Speaker 2 (28:13):
Okay, So is there any specific incidents that you were
quite worried about.

Speaker 21 (28:20):
Ah.

Speaker 3 (28:20):
So the first incident that worried me is my sister
and I both had these dogs. They were sisters and
my dog her dog's ear off and they were fighting
and stuff. So we had to look for another home
for this dog. David and approached us and said, you know,
he was looking for a dog for his pig hunting.

Speaker 5 (28:42):
And stuff, and that she'd be a perfect dog.

Speaker 3 (28:43):
Could he'd please take care, he'd look after he blah
blah blah. My sister said to him that as long
as you look after her, she is a good dog.
But we just can't have the two dogs fighting like
it's getting too much.

Speaker 5 (28:54):
Yeah, yeah, ye. He took her. And then you know
a few months ago.

Speaker 3 (28:59):
Brian and I realized what I'm going around there that
I'm not seeing Bella, so that I asked Amy.

Speaker 5 (29:05):
I said, Amy, was Belly, what i'ven't seen her in
a while?

Speaker 3 (29:09):
And she started crying and she said, Simmo took us
out bush and the dog and he shot her in
the head. I said, but why she was a good dog,
and he said the reason why she kept escaping.

Speaker 5 (29:21):
I said, but I could.

Speaker 3 (29:22):
Have found her another home and he's like she said,
I tried to tell him that, but he just he
wouldn't listen.

Speaker 5 (29:27):
He just shot the dog in the head and left
the dog out in the bush and off you went.
So that is just that's just cruel. How could someone
do that?

Speaker 3 (29:37):
So that was the massive Well, like, if he could
do this to a poor innocent dog, you know, you
need to stay away.

Speaker 21 (29:47):
You know.

Speaker 5 (29:47):
She's cried to me.

Speaker 3 (29:50):
About him, saying to her that after the car accident
that they had, that he caused that.

Speaker 5 (29:58):
You know, she should have died in that acci them.

Speaker 3 (30:01):
And she burst into tears telling me and again asked her.
I begged for her to just leave him. And she
deserves so much better. She was beautiful, She could get
anyone that she wanted another time I was staying there.

Speaker 5 (30:12):
I used to often when he wasn't.

Speaker 3 (30:14):
Now I'd never stay if he was there because you
always made me feel uncomfortable.

Speaker 5 (30:18):
I just the vibe was just off with him. That
felt like intimidated and scared. I guess yeah.

Speaker 3 (30:24):
Get a call from her mum, Nancy, and she says, oh.

Speaker 5 (30:27):
Simmo's running down town now.

Speaker 3 (30:28):
Simo was meant to be in the mines and Amy's like, oh, okay,
you know, brace yourself. I don't know what's going to
happen here. And I was kind of like, what's going on,
you know, didn't quite understand.

Speaker 20 (30:37):
But he came in.

Speaker 3 (30:38):
He didn't even say hello anything, and he's just slamming
open every door, every cupboard, door, even cupboards that a
person could not fit into.

Speaker 5 (30:48):
He's opening everything, slamming it where you know, where the
fuck are they? Where are these men? It was just
me and Amy and the kids, you know. Amy said,
you know, what the fuck are you talking about? Idiot?

Speaker 3 (30:59):
You know, if there's no other men, why would we
have men here when our babies were here? And he
just started skitzing. He's like, I know, he's a base
liing to me, he's a basin on it. And I
tried to tell him, like, sim shut up.

Speaker 5 (31:12):
You know you're an idiot.

Speaker 22 (31:13):
I said, you have a woman here who loves you
and would do anything for you.

Speaker 5 (31:17):
I said, she's even too good for you. Yet she's here.

Speaker 22 (31:19):
If she was going to cheat on you, she would
have done her ages ago, I said, but she's here,
you know, forget every bock and call.

Speaker 5 (31:25):
I said, you're going to lose her. You keep going
this like quit.

Speaker 3 (31:29):
And he just kind of just kept going back at her,
and there's two kept going. So I was just like, nah,
I'm going to pack my bags, packed my own, my
son's stuff, got it by the door.

Speaker 5 (31:39):
I then stood in between them with my back towards.

Speaker 3 (31:41):
Him, facing Amy, and I said, they go pack your guys,
some stuff will.

Speaker 5 (31:47):
Go, and you're coming home with me. And she's like, no,
nah Na, And I said no, packed your stuff.

Speaker 3 (31:52):
Were going And then simmo, you know, he goes me
on the shoulder, turns me around and he says, now
look me.

Speaker 5 (31:58):
He's like, I'm sorry.

Speaker 3 (31:59):
I don't know why I do this, and he's getting
all emotional. He's like, I don't know why I have
these thoughts. He's like, got it, you know. I was
convinced there was someone.

Speaker 5 (32:06):
Any I was like, well, mate, I said, look at
the fucking kids. I said, they're all scared. They're all crying,
and said you've scared him. I said, I don't want
to stay here anymore.

Speaker 22 (32:13):
And I don't want her to stay here because I
don't know if her and the kids are safe. Because
now I promise she's all safe here. I don't just
leave because I've come home early. You were meant to
stay here, I say, stay, I said, well.

Speaker 5 (32:24):
All right, no worries.

Speaker 3 (32:25):
Stayed, mainly because I was scared that if I left
that was.

Speaker 5 (32:30):
He going to start abusing her or whatever.

Speaker 3 (32:32):
And I feel guilty for leaving, so I said. I
didn't even sleep that night. I'm their room is the
room connecting her to the room that we were staying in,
and I just was listening, making sure she was okay.

Speaker 20 (32:44):
You know.

Speaker 5 (32:45):
By the next day everything seemed to calm down.

Speaker 3 (32:47):
I tried to then, sneakily behind his back, say to her, like, look,
just pack your stuff like I've got you, nothing's going
to happen.

Speaker 5 (32:54):
You just get you and your kids in the car
and will go. And she's like, no, no, you know,
the kids have got school. It's all right. Like everything
I'll be a fine is over it now.

Speaker 3 (33:03):
And yeah, And that was only a couple of incidents.

Speaker 5 (33:06):
And obviously watching the news.

Speaker 3 (33:09):
And listening to podcasts, I've learned so much more than
I didn't even.

Speaker 5 (33:15):
Know about fake to heart.

Speaker 1 (33:19):
My poor friend, Mom says, this was only a few
months before Amy died.

Speaker 2 (33:25):
Can you tell me about when you learned what happened
to her? That day, like on who told you? Do
you recall?

Speaker 20 (33:33):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (33:33):
So my auntie came over and said that Amy passed
away and I was like, which Amy, Who what are
you talking about? And she's like, yeah, Amy's gone and
I said, my Amy's got said.

Speaker 5 (33:48):
What do you know? You've got it wrong? And I said, well,
how what happened? She said suicide? And I said, nah, no,
she can't of she wouldn't have.

Speaker 3 (33:55):
She wouldn't have left her girls. Her girls were her world.
Then she said that she shot herself in the head
and the girls were out in the car and I said, nah, nah,
na na. I said, that's going to be bullshit.

Speaker 5 (34:09):
I said, she would never have shot herself in the head,
especially if her girls are in the car listening to
the sound. I said, she wouldn't have done it. I
said nah, And I just got shut down.

Speaker 3 (34:18):
I was pretty much told that you know, it is
what it is, it's suicide. It's you know, you don't
know what people are going through in those moments. So
in time, I just, you know, took it on board
that it was suicide, even though I had doubts, scouts
all along that nah, something's not right.

Speaker 1 (34:51):
In twenty fourteen, there were ninety five recorded deaths due
to family and domestic violence, with Western Australia having the
second highest proportion of FDV offenses. The risk is heightened
in remote communities such as Serpentine. Now. Latest police statistics

(35:16):
show a ten percent rise in reported assaults and threatening
behavior against family members between the months of April and
June this year. If you listen to the news regularly,
you'll be aware that there are many cases that are
only now being recognized as domestic violence related. Unfortunately, it's

(35:41):
usually seen as too late, but not in the eyes
of Charon dev Sinh, a family violence advocate who has
helped many families of victims in their plight for justice
for their loved ones, including Amy's family. Sharon Deff, thanks

(36:01):
very much for talking to us about this. Really appreciate it.
Jill MANA getting an insight into the expertise that you've
been able to offer to the whole case and specifically
the family. I know you've done a lot of research,
and you've got a lot of information from family and friends,
and you've been able to build this intricate picture of
Amy's life, the sort of life she was leading. Can

(36:23):
you describe it? For us.

Speaker 4 (36:24):
It's life hundreds of thousands of Australian women lead and
hundreds of thousands of Australian children live in. It's a
life fraught with wanting psychological and physical violence to end,
and the hope that things will get better and the
reality that the violence almost always gets Moro cute. You know,

(36:46):
Amy was really building for her future, you know, especially
her daughter's education. She has had a stone like belief
that if she could get her daughter's the best education possible,
that that would lead them as a generation and probably
her out of a life of abuse, a life of despair,

(37:09):
a life of uncertainty and insecurity.

Speaker 1 (37:12):
Was there any clear evidence did you find any clear
evidence that she was planning to leave?

Speaker 4 (37:17):
David Simmons, Yeah, we found a range of evidence about
Amy's planning to escape.

Speaker 1 (37:23):
Well, what sort of evidence?

Speaker 4 (37:24):
Evidence that she had been wanting to move back to
Panjara to be very close to her family, and that
she had talked to a man about a sublet arrangement.
She told various relatives that she was leaving. She was
quite blunt about it. I'm going, I'm going. It's quite
blunt and determined about it, and she told him I'm going,

(37:47):
I'm going.

Speaker 1 (37:48):
You have no doubt about that from all the things
you've seen and the people you've talked to. Yeah, absolutely,
crystal clear that she had a pathway forward that didn't
include him.

Speaker 4 (37:59):
Absolutely, She'd begged him to change, She'd pleaded with him
to change, she wanted him to change, she wanted to
have a family intact because that's not something she'd experienced
a lot of in her life.

Speaker 1 (38:10):
And she was laying the groundwork. Was she to start
a new life for her and a girl's.

Speaker 4 (38:15):
Absolutely, and the laying of the groundwork was escaping from
Simmons into the arms of her family and friends.

Speaker 1 (38:23):
The most dangerous phase is when one party signals an
intention to leave to the absolutely.

Speaker 4 (38:28):
Absolutely, that's the crossroads of the crucible of so many
domestic violence homicides, and it's why leaving is so dangerous,
and women are tremendously fearful of taking that final act
of leading because they're not leaving the violence, the violence
is actually escalating all around them. So that's why I

(38:50):
think Amy was trying to pre plan, pre formulate, and
escape plant The fact that Amy wanted to drive two months.

Speaker 1 (39:01):
Because Nancy did offer to come and pick her up.

Speaker 4 (39:03):
Absolutely, absolutely, any mum would.

Speaker 1 (39:06):
But you think she rejected that because there was a
sense of urgency to get out.

Speaker 4 (39:10):
I think she rejected it because she was so determined
to get out herself.

Speaker 2 (39:14):
Charondev says, there's a key piece of evidence which proves
that Amy wasn't coming back.

Speaker 4 (39:20):
Two years later after Amy's death, when I finally got
to see her handbag, I was wearing forensic clouds and
all of that evidence was available to the police for
many years, and I opened up her handbag for the
very first time, because the police had never opened up
her handbag, and right at the top of her personal

(39:42):
things was her passport.

Speaker 1 (39:45):
That was on the top of her handbag.

Speaker 4 (39:47):
When you unzipped it, the first thing you saw was
a passport, and I took a photo of it because
I realized the significance of it.

Speaker 1 (39:54):
The police had never looked at.

Speaker 4 (39:55):
That, No, not to my knowledge.

Speaker 1 (39:57):
Well, that's unusual as.

Speaker 4 (40:00):
It's shockingly neglectful, because in our time, the things you
look for the phone, the laptop, the iPad, and what's
in your handbag, what are the things you're most likely
to run or have in a go bag? And then

(40:21):
draw inferences or draw evidence from that They, to my knowledge,
had never opened that bag, had never done an analysis,
and had never brought a systemic expert domestic violence lens
to any of Amy's accounts of violence, or friends accounts
of violence, or any evidence they had of Simmons's violence

(40:44):
in the years prior.

Speaker 1 (40:45):
Even a basic student studying victimology would know that the
first thing you do to work out whether that person
was in any way implicated or was the essential victim,
you would look at their personal belonging, and that you
can't get much more personal than a woman's handbag.

Speaker 4 (41:02):
Absolutely, and you're looking at what absolutely mattered to Amy
in the rush to escape, you know, and to see
that passport tells you a few things, and it tells
you that she's not coming back. He's got all id
and not having looked at that bag, not having analyzed
its contents, and is about a police judgment that Amy's

(41:28):
death wasn't worth investigating, her family weren't worth supporting in
that investigation process, and Simmons and his associates weren't really
worth pursuing. Those I think are the three fundamental judgments
that contaminated that investigation.

Speaker 1 (41:50):
What do you know of simmons background in terms of
social behavior.

Speaker 4 (41:55):
Long history of drug of alcohol abuse, a long history
of violence to people he knew, and long history of
violence against police and people he drink with or fight
within pubs.

Speaker 1 (42:10):
Well, what do you think that is? Is he just
fallen between the cracks in the system or is there
something else?

Speaker 21 (42:15):
No?

Speaker 4 (42:15):
I just do I think. I think the police, particularly
investigatory police, detective police. You know, I never had him
on the map because Amy probably never went to police.
Amy is one of the ninety five of people who
never disclosed to the police because it makes it more
dangerous or they're fearful of an indifferent response. So he

(42:38):
was being mapped in terms of his violence against everyone
else but Amy, and they never factored in his history
of violence at the home front. They never took, to
my knowledge, went back to his previous partners and said
things like, has he ever threatened you with a gun?
Has he ever held a gun to your head? Has

(42:59):
he ever been extremely violent when you've tried to leave.

Speaker 1 (43:02):
So there was never any background checks.

Speaker 4 (43:04):
Nothing to look at the propensity and patterns of this
man's violence.

Speaker 1 (43:07):
That's what the police used as an excuse in the inquest.
Wasn't it. They said, Look, there was nothing on the
police database. There was no formal complaints from Amy.

Speaker 4 (43:16):
That's right, and that's because ninety victims don't go to
the police, or are afraid to go to the police,
or get indifferent, neglectful responses to the police. It's very
rare that a victim gets a positive response to police.
And Amy was focused on escape.

Speaker 1 (43:35):
But in this case, there was a massive red flag,
wasn't there. I hear what you're saying about a lot
of domestic violence related cases, but in this case, there
was a massive red flag. Here's a mother who dies
from a gunshot wound while her own children are fifty
sixty meters away in a car that has the engine running,

(43:58):
and she's packed their things to.

Speaker 4 (44:00):
Leave, and she's fleeing herself. But the detectives and force command,
the hierarchy all the way to the Commissioner of Police,
were absolutely committed to proving that this was a suicide
and absolutely committed to saying that those forensic failures, the
cleaning of the scene that we permitted was inconsequential because

(44:23):
she's sic hearted anyway. It was one of the most
chilling aspects of the prosecution of Amy as a victim.

Speaker 1 (44:30):
Why did WA police mistakenly identify Amy as an Indigenous
woman on the night of the shooting.

Speaker 4 (44:38):
I think Amy looked indigenous. You know, she had the
beauty of anung Our woman, the unique beauty of a
nung Our woman. Her children are Indigenous, clearly, and Simmons
was probably clearly Indigenous himself.

Speaker 1 (44:55):
Did that make a difference to the way police approached
the investigation.

Speaker 4 (45:00):
Apart from the uniform who first arrived, It made an
indelible difference, I believe.

Speaker 1 (45:05):
Do you think it's that strong?

Speaker 4 (45:06):
I think that's strong. I have sat with families in
the Supreme Court of West Australia and talked to them
outside the court and the question they asked me about
why Western Australia has some of the highest rates of
homicide against Aberginal women, particularly Aberighin women and children in

(45:26):
the world. They asked me that question, why are our
women worth so little? And I've gone to the former
premiere and put it to him. I said, this is
a question that only leadership can answer. In your state,
you're one of the richer states in the world. Why
are Aberiginal women and women like Amy worth so little.

Speaker 2 (45:51):
Just to clarify he Amy's grandmother was tie. She looked Indigenous,
but she wasn't. Mission Australia reports that Indigenous Australiallians are
thirty two times more likely to be hospitalized for family
violence than non Indigenous people. In two thousand and nine,

(46:12):
five years prior to Amy's death, Indigenous woman Andrea Picket
was brutally murdered by her husband after seeking emergency refuge
and being turned away.

Speaker 10 (46:22):
Stabbed seventeen times outside a house on Wilby Street, North
Beach by Kenneth Pickett.

Speaker 23 (46:28):
She ended every conversation with the police with the same words,
what are you going to do?

Speaker 20 (46:31):
Wait fim to kill me before you do something.

Speaker 23 (46:33):
And that's exactly what happened.

Speaker 1 (46:36):
You've been involved in a lot of cases where women
have been hurt, badly hurt. How does this compare.

Speaker 4 (46:43):
I'm haunted by all those women's murders and all those
children's murders, and the enforced disappearances of habitual women especially.
You know, it's destroying me.

Speaker 1 (46:56):
You feel that very deeply.

Speaker 4 (46:58):
I'm broken. It's not to say I'm not fighting, but
I'm totally broken.

Speaker 1 (47:05):
It's very hard, isn't especially when you see the great
sadness from the family, because it's not just normal grief.
There's an extra layer on top of that, because it's
the frustration of having to deal with the grief and
then battle authorities to get something done.

Speaker 4 (47:23):
Yeah, they've battled every minute of every day in the
last nearly ten years. They know they have a life sentence.
They've told me, we all have life sentences, and this
country cannot leave it to the victims and the survivors

(47:43):
and the children and the parents who are grieving to
change the fundamental culture and story about violence against women
and children in this country. And that's what these families
had to do and continue to do.

Speaker 2 (47:58):
Chin have sat through every day. In quest, he recalls
that when the time came for David to face the coroner,
he was reportedly at the pub.

Speaker 1 (48:09):
Is it true the police lawyer got up and did
not support a motion to issue a bench warrant to
make him turn up.

Speaker 4 (48:16):
That's absolutely correct. She opposed the making of a bench
warrant to bring him into custody only for the purposes
of answering questions.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
So after all those years, let me get this right,
Sharon dev I'm struggling with this after all those years,
the police know that they botched the investigation. Something chronic,
as you say, catastrophically when the opportunity is there to
question from a state coroner, the person at the center
of this entire case, the police act against the interests

(48:51):
of the family.

Speaker 4 (48:51):
And the interests of the public.

Speaker 1 (48:53):
How can that not be reprehensible?

Speaker 4 (48:55):
It was just an an a layer of reprehensibility in
the inquest.

Speaker 1 (48:59):
But athema to anybody who's ever been to an inquest
will tell you. The coroner one of the first things
they do is they say, this is not a trial.
This is about information.

Speaker 4 (49:09):
This is about trying to get to the.

Speaker 1 (49:11):
Facts, information gathering exercise at its very best. So not
getting information from the person who was there on the
scene when a young mum dies from a gunshot wound.
How is that explainable from the police side of things?
Why the hell would they act against the interests of

(49:31):
the family.

Speaker 4 (49:32):
Because they've acted against interest to the family for almost
a decade. I've read every email they've sent. I've written
many letters that they've finished and sent. There are thousands
of emails and letters and phone calls, and they are
only asking for the minimum they asked for the minimum.

(49:54):
They expected that the Deputy State Coroner would call David
Simmons or compel him to give evidence, and they expected
the police to be interested in what he had to say.

Speaker 1 (50:06):
The net result was that eventually they found him and
he was allowed to appear via video link.

Speaker 4 (50:11):
It's correct.

Speaker 1 (50:12):
So they didn't even make him turn up in person.

Speaker 4 (50:14):
No, no, he never faced the family in person in court,
or he never faced the coroner in court. It was
all done why a video from Armadale Court and he
was very casual, slouched. The thing I remember about his
evidence was him yawning while he is being asked questions
about Amy's killing, and him being surrounded by detectives and

(50:38):
police sitting in the in the row of the court
from Armadale, and then the family being left alone after
so long, never to see him answer a question directly
person to person in a room, you know, it was appalling.

Speaker 1 (50:57):
It is appalling the man in chart the Commissioner of
Police in Wa Cole Blanche, refuses to sit down with
me like you're doing today and take questions on this subject.
Are you surprised by that?

Speaker 4 (51:10):
No, I'm not surprised by it because it takes our
leadership and commitment and vision and a capacity to walk
your talk, to confront your failures. We are not going
to make excuses for our failures. If we can get
it wrong, then we can also get it right. Where's

(51:30):
Cole Blanche explaining all of this conduct to the family,
to the citizens in West Australia, to the people of
this country. Where is he explaining similar conduct to so
many other families.

Speaker 1 (51:45):
He's not explaining anything. But he gave them. He gave
them a letter of regret. What did you think of that?

Speaker 4 (51:51):
Well, he got the date of Amy's killing wrong in
that letter of regret. That's how much attention to detail
he paid in that letter. So it just reinforced the
worthlessness of Amy and the worthlessness of her family, the
invisibility of Amy and her family and all victims. Really,
if you can't get that crucial detail right, what are

(52:14):
your condolences worth? And what are your commitments to the
future of ending family violence? Possibly worth? All I see
is of acuum of leadership. You know, wa is one
of the richest states in the world. They have money
for stadiums and they have money for mining. But when

(52:35):
it comes to women fleeing violence, you know many of
them are running for their lives, literally in the street,
running for their lives. No access to proper refugees, no
access is to easy, safe avenues of housing and survivability.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
The police insistence for so long that this was a suicide,
How does any of this makes sense to you?

Speaker 4 (53:01):
I think they couldn't come to terms with the fact
that the investigation was so catastrophically compromised, and they didn't
have the courage and the insight and the commitment to
the people of Western Australia to admit that.

Speaker 2 (53:16):
What's acknowledged by almost everyone is that the place her
body was found was an unusual one for anyone to
choose to take their own life. It's also worth remembering
Amy had taken steps to ensure that those closest to
her were aware of what was happening in her relationship,
and she made certain there would be evidence, such as

(53:37):
the photo Amy took of herself with bruises around her neck.

Speaker 1 (53:49):
Just coming back to that point about domestic violence. I
think this is interesting because we've touched on the fact
that there was nothing in the database. The police said
clearly in the inquest we didn't have any histy of
domestic violence between the pair, because there was nothing in
the database. There was no formal complaint ever registered by Amy,
and yet the police had access to her telephone, her

(54:10):
mobile phone from the moment this happened. Yes, and this
is a photograph that we have managed to extract from
her mobile phone, which the police had access to virtually
from the moment it happened.

Speaker 4 (54:24):
Yeah, that's correct. This is from a police download, an
e crime download.

Speaker 1 (54:29):
And yet the police have never produced that photograph.

Speaker 4 (54:32):
Never to the family, never to the court. I've never
seen it disclosed. And the significance of what's in this
photo is really severe strangulation and other bruising. They had
access at all times to this photo, you know. And
this photo is taken by Amy.

Speaker 1 (54:52):
From the metadata on this it would appear it's taken
about two years before the incident, just over two years.

Speaker 4 (54:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:59):
What did you think the coroner's open finding?

Speaker 4 (55:02):
I think the coroner's in quest completely failed to apply
a specialist domestic violence lens over all of Amy's help
seeking behavior and all of Simmons's violence, as well as
the institutional indifference of detectives and police. So I don't

(55:25):
think the coroner finding reflects at all the deep violent
reality of Amy's death. I think it subjects it to
the same kind of disbelief and you know, sit on
the fence that the detectives on the night and the
detectives subsequently embodied.

Speaker 1 (55:45):
There's plenty of things in this case for the police
to work with. There's plenty of loose ends.

Speaker 4 (55:50):
There's plenty of loose ends, there's plenty of emergent possible
lines of inquiry. There's plenty of strategies that they can employ.
A question is why not really help us and explain
a little bit more about this if you would.

Speaker 3 (56:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:05):
Sure.

Speaker 16 (56:06):
This was a program of works essentially designed to pay
due recognition to the families who have lost loved ones
essentially homicide investigations or long term missing persons investigations, and
it's about providing the investigators at the Special Crime Squad
the best possible opportunity to capture the evidence that is

(56:26):
out there through people who can be incentivized to come forward,
and that is through the injection of a one million
dollar reward for each of those cases. That involved a
lot of work behind the scenes which the team of
Special Crime Squad have conducted. It involved lot of liaison
with families, next of kin of loved ones who have
been lost in tragic circumstances but were thrilled with the result.

(56:46):
Here today at Parliament.

Speaker 1 (56:47):
House, in a landmark announcement, the WA Government is introducing
a pilot family and Domestic violence program aimed at convicting
more offenders.

Speaker 12 (56:58):
This program, and she was forensic evidence will be expertly
collected using the best available methods and technology to successfully
prosecute perpetrators and stop them from further offending. In the
interests of justice, it is essential that all relevant evidence
in family and domestic dvance prosecutions is put before the courts.

Speaker 1 (57:19):
According to the government website, the program ensures experienced doctors
will undertake trauma informed forensic examinations and prepare expert reports
for court. They will also provide testimonies to maximize the
chances of offenders being convicted and zont House Association will

(57:42):
provide support and accommodation for victim survivors through the whole process.
Now that all sounds great in theory, but one thing
our research shows is the ongoing reluctance from authorities to
pursue known offenders.

Speaker 2 (58:04):
Or it seems tips on cold cases, which they bungled.
At the start, I caught up with a young woman
named Chris, who says she provided startling new information involving
Joshua Brighten to crime Stoppers after watching our Spotlight episode.

Speaker 21 (58:22):
So I rang them first and spoke to someone on
the call center or something, and I mentioned that, you know,
we'd had this conversation with Joshua and he said about
moving the body and burning the clothes, and the operator
or guests whoever I spoke to, said, oh, it's probably

(58:42):
best if you flick an email through via the page
so then we can have it documented and ring you
back or getting contact type thing.

Speaker 20 (58:52):
So I then jumped on the Crimes.

Speaker 21 (58:55):
Office website and followed the instructions he gave me and
filled out form. So I knew it was around two
thousand and eighteen, and I just gave information that who
was there, what the conversation was.

Speaker 20 (59:11):
About, very briefly, because I.

Speaker 21 (59:13):
Thought, oh, well, when they bring me, I can give
more detail.

Speaker 20 (59:17):
But I just explained about.

Speaker 21 (59:18):
How they'd found a dead girl, their friend, they'd been pigging,
and they burnt their clothes.

Speaker 20 (59:25):
So I gave just those details. And you haven't heard
anything since amazing.

Speaker 2 (59:32):
It's amazing just to clarify those. So Joshua had a
few dreams, right.

Speaker 21 (59:38):
Yes, So he was cooking dinner for me and my
partner and his girlfriend at the time, and he had
it wouldn't be drunk, he probably would have had like
maybe three or four by that stage, and we're just
all sitting around in her lounge room and he just
come out with, oh, me and Price, he found our

(01:00:01):
mates missus dead and we were like what because there
was no way in context anything.

Speaker 20 (01:00:09):
We were speaking about.

Speaker 21 (01:00:11):
But we were all just kind of puzzled, like why would.

Speaker 20 (01:00:15):
You come out with that.

Speaker 21 (01:00:15):
We weren't, you know, talking about anything remotely close to that.
And he said, yeah, we moved the body. And I
was like, so, did you move the body to see
if she.

Speaker 20 (01:00:27):
Was still alive? Like, and he said, oh, no, she
was dead. And I was like, well, why would you
move the body then?

Speaker 21 (01:00:35):
And he said something like it was something along the
lines of like oh, the family would have been upset
tour and we were kind of like, this is really weird.

Speaker 20 (01:00:44):
Like I remember my.

Speaker 21 (01:00:45):
Partner because my four year old son was sitting in
between him and josh and my partner like picked him
up and moved him across the room because he was like,
you're not sitting next to him, because that's how rattled
my partner was here this and we were like oh okay,
like and he goes, yeah, she was dead. We'd been pigging,

(01:01:09):
and we like founder and then we had to burn
the clothes because the cops were chasing us and we
didn't want them to think that we had anything.

Speaker 20 (01:01:19):
To do with it. And we were just like, but
if you'd been because we said, well, why do.

Speaker 21 (01:01:24):
You bend your clothes because we've been picking, they had
pig blood and we were like, well, if you had
peg blood, they'd be able to know that it's pig blood.

Speaker 20 (01:01:31):
It's different to human blood, you know.

Speaker 21 (01:01:34):
And he was like, oh yeah, no, we just got
rid of them, like and he made a comment like
it was my favorite pair of shorts, and.

Speaker 20 (01:01:41):
We were like okay.

Speaker 21 (01:01:43):
We kind of fizzled the conversation out because we were
just like, this is really uncomfortable, but we didn't really.

Speaker 20 (01:01:49):
Want to talk about it. It wasn't anything related.

Speaker 21 (01:01:53):
Also, at the time, Josh we used to tell stories,
so we're like, oh, maybe this is just one of.

Speaker 20 (01:01:57):
His stories, Like my friend.

Speaker 21 (01:02:01):
She was just like, what are you on about? And
he goes, oh, I told you this, and she's like, no,
you didn't. I'm pretty sure I remember this slight. He's like, yeah, yeah,
I told you And she was just as confused as
what we were. And we didn't really you know, devil
too much into it because we were just like, is
he having us on or is just like you know,

(01:02:22):
it was just crazy like and it wasn't until we
see in this news on spotlight that were like, oh
maybe this is what Josh was talking about like that night.

Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
What's your reaction to not hearing anything back from police?

Speaker 21 (01:02:35):
I thought they would have at least inquired or you know,
wanted something like a statement or something like that, or
you know, is.

Speaker 20 (01:02:45):
That or you can give us sight? Is anyone else
because I did say on there that you.

Speaker 21 (01:02:49):
Know, there was myself and my best ye and my partner,
so you know, there was three people witnessed to this conversation.

Speaker 20 (01:02:56):
But yeah, no, I haven't heard anything back.

Speaker 21 (01:03:00):
And I did leave details for them to contact me,
so it wasn't like I was anonymous or anything.

Speaker 20 (01:03:06):
And yeah, I'm just thinking.

Speaker 21 (01:03:09):
They're probably back pedal, living thinking, oh my gosh, like
there is so much here that we've missed, and maybe
we just.

Speaker 20 (01:03:15):
Ignore it will go away. And I'm like, well, I
don't think it's going to go away.

Speaker 21 (01:03:19):
Like, you know, because quite often over the like years
since Josh has said it, we've had little conversations here
and they're like, oh, that story, like it's always just
sat with us, like his stories.

Speaker 20 (01:03:31):
Just sat with us.

Speaker 21 (01:03:32):
And then you know, just now to have a background
to the story, we're just like wow, like and I
can't let it go until I've known that I've given
the information that I've been told, Like whether it might
not be the right story, but to me, I think
it's important to get it out there and have it

(01:03:53):
be heard and investigate it so, you know, because it
could be other people out there that you know, have
been told something and it's all little pieces to the puzzle.

Speaker 2 (01:04:02):
I think, Well, that's right, It's why wouldn't you be
hauling them back in the question.

Speaker 21 (01:04:08):
Yeah, yeah, Well, you know, we had similar things with just.

Speaker 20 (01:04:14):
For example, my cousin.

Speaker 5 (01:04:16):
The two girls that murdered her.

Speaker 21 (01:04:19):
They told other people within the two days that she
was missing, but none of them come forward because they
were worried they were going to be next, and like
you know, once they were questioned later on, it's like
like it's not like they had a gun or anything
like that. Like you know, you had a choice to
say something, but you chose not to say anything, or

(01:04:39):
as I'd be the person that wanted to say something
and you know, like not be scared to say anything.
So I'm hoping, you know, there's other people out there
that like might come forward.

Speaker 20 (01:04:48):
If more people are coming forward, you know, like and
have that voice.

Speaker 21 (01:04:52):
And because Amy doesn't have the voice anymore, so be
good for other people to have that voice and.

Speaker 20 (01:04:59):
Get it out.

Speaker 2 (01:05:00):
So with someone convicted in your cousins.

Speaker 20 (01:05:05):
Yeah, the two girls were convicted. There was rumors that
there could have.

Speaker 21 (01:05:09):
Been someone to help them, but nothing ever come to light.

Speaker 1 (01:05:15):
Chris is referring to teenager Eliza Davis, who was choked
to death with a speaker wire and buried in a
shallow grave in Collie, a town in the Southwest region
of Western Australia.

Speaker 24 (01:05:28):
After partying together the night before, Eliza's two housemates waited
for her to wake up. One girl then strangled her
with stereo wire, the other helping to smother her with
a chemical smoked rag. The girls that even placed two
shovels outside ready for a shallow grave under the house.

Speaker 1 (01:05:46):
Two sixteen year old girls, supposedly her friends, were convicted
of Eliza's murder.

Speaker 20 (01:05:53):
Yeah, she was I think fifteen at the time.

Speaker 21 (01:05:55):
Yeah, it was horrible because my auntie actually, like she
got the call that she was missing. So my annie
went to the house where she was staying and the
girls that didn't live.

Speaker 20 (01:06:06):
With her and they were like, oh, come in, come in.
So she was in the house and they're like.

Speaker 21 (01:06:10):
Oh, we don't know where she is, and they went
looking with her mum for her. Meanwhile, the whole time
she was buried under.

Speaker 20 (01:06:19):
The house in the basement.

Speaker 21 (01:06:23):
So yeah, it was just so.

Speaker 2 (01:06:27):
So what are your thoughts on how this one's being treated?

Speaker 20 (01:06:31):
They think the police have a lot to answer for.
And you know, if I, like, if I was the family, I.

Speaker 21 (01:06:39):
Would be so disappointed because there just seems to be
neglect on the victim.

Speaker 20 (01:06:46):
And you know, I.

Speaker 21 (01:06:47):
Feel for the police that got there first and you know, said, nah,
bus needs to be investigated, and then to be told no,
we're not investigating that light, you'd be heartbreaking for them
as well, because they.

Speaker 20 (01:06:57):
Could see from entering the seat, that something wasn't.

Speaker 2 (01:07:01):
Right, something wasn't right. We've heard that a lot during
this podcast. Now, Brydon has repeatedly maintained he was not
there when Amy died, and more recently he's denied ever
saying they moved her body and burned their clothes.

Speaker 19 (01:07:24):
How could I do that when they've been sitting in
an evidence box the last ten years.

Speaker 2 (01:07:29):
As you recall, Simmons and Price were asked to provide
the clothes they were wearing that night, but they weren't
cease by police at the time because the detectives decided
Amy's death was a suicide, and as far as we're aware,
Brydon never had to hand any in. Brydon also sent
this message to the Facebook account set up by Amy's

(01:07:51):
family called Amy's Voice.

Speaker 19 (01:07:54):
I've never protected anyone or ever will, but I do
believe there's something not right with what happened. He was
my friend. I miss her as well, and if she
didn't do it to herself, then I want justice for
her too.

Speaker 2 (01:08:07):
We've established a lot of conflicting information from him and
the other key witnesses in this case. That's not uncommon,
which is why everything needs to be put on the record,
but nobody even checked out Brydon's story. And yet the
cold case team was given a pat on the back
for its investigation, which I suppose is good compared to
major crimes, but still a long way from being thorough.

(01:08:32):
So yeah, it's not surprising that two months after contacting
Crimestoppers with information, Chris still hadn't heard from anybody at
WA Police. However, now they've dedicated a new team to
investigate Amy's case, hopefully that will change. Anna Davy, Amy's aunt,
told us she also hadn't heard from her WA Police

(01:08:54):
liaison officer for months. It wasn't until she reached out
a couple of weeks ago that she finally received to call.
She's pleased they're finally reinvestigating Amy's case. That after their
previous failures is understandably dubious.

Speaker 1 (01:09:11):
Yes, it is hard not to be a bit cynical
given how much evidence was overlooked at the time. Like
Chris says, it's all the little bits of information that
helped get a result for her cousin, Eliza.

Speaker 24 (01:09:27):
Judge Dennis Reynolds said the two killers, who met when
they were in grade two at Collie Primary School were
equally responsible for the murder.

Speaker 1 (01:09:35):
But there's got to be a desire to solve Amy's
case and go the distance, even if it means exposing
further the sloppy, very sloppy police work at the start.
Now that won't matter if they can ensure justice for
Amy now.

Speaker 2 (01:09:57):
David Simmons, Gareth Price and Gosha Or Brighton are all
before the courts on various matters, as well as assault
of a public officer, which will be heard again at
Perth Magistrate's Court at the end of October. Simmons faces
three new charges at Armadale later this month, no authority
to drive, use of an unlicensed vehicle on the road

(01:10:19):
and to drive causing or permitting a vehicle with forge,
replica or false plates to be driven. Price is due
to appear at Narraging Courthouse on the seventeenth of September
charged with no authority to drive, and Brighton is in
Mandera Court two days later for two counts of reaching
protective veil conditions, damaging property common assault, along with the

(01:10:43):
two counts of breaching a family violence restraining order.

Speaker 1 (01:10:50):
We caught up with a woman who allegers Brydon breached
a family violence restraining order. Now we won't go into
this case as it's still before the courts, but she
claims Brydon told her once that he couldn't get quote
that image of Amy out of his mind unquote Like Chris,

(01:11:12):
she had no idea what he was referring to and
didn't seek clarification. But police should most certainly follow up
with her and all of the others we've featured in
this episode, which they stopped pursuing at the time because well,
because it was all too hard, especially Brighton's mate Kaid

(01:11:35):
and I agree Al, it's a massive hole in the
investigation that they didn't get a statement from him to
determine the veracity of Brighton's story. This sort of detail
is critical because if it doesn't stack up like a
house of cards, everything else comes tumbling down. I asked

(01:11:56):
Charon dev Singh what he thought about the way Amy's
case has and is continuing to be treated, including the
introduction of the one million dollar reward.

Speaker 4 (01:12:09):
When those rewards were so belatedly offered. The thing that
struck me about the media conference with the police minister
were how many families, particularly Aboriginal families, were so desperately
waiting for anything to happen, anything to change, and that

(01:12:29):
this sort of token offer of money to try and
advance the cases was really about the police again being
really passive, you know, because the science around rewards is
that they're not a powerful incentive that breaks core cases
or special crime cases. That's the disappointing reality. It takes

(01:12:51):
intense independent police work and intense independent often journalism and
family scrutiny, and all of them things coming together to
culminate in the breakthrough of a cold case.

Speaker 1 (01:13:04):
Smart work, clever work, smart.

Speaker 4 (01:13:06):
Work, clever work, determined work, work with integrity.

Speaker 1 (01:13:09):
In the meantime, in this case, David Simmons is on
bail as we speak, over another serious charge, in fact,
the second time he's been charged with assaulting a police officer. Yes,
the first time he was convicted and served nine months
in jail, but this time he seems to be granted

(01:13:31):
bail with monotonous regularity.

Speaker 4 (01:13:35):
I've done a lot of work with men in prison,
and I haven't seen a single one take responsibility for
their violence because they've been sent to prison. They take
responsibility for their violence. They end their violence in many
other ways, but never because of being sent to prison,
because prison teaches you that violence is normal, violence is correct.

(01:14:00):
And so many women and so many children, so many
survivors will tell you, you know, I was more afraid
of him after he came out of prison. So this
is not an issue of imprisoning tens of thousands of
more Aboriginal people or non actual people or men. We
can't solve violence by putting people in violent institutions and

(01:14:21):
say you stay here until we let you out, you know. So,
I think the structural changes that need to happen are
far more profound than tweaking the criminal punishment system. I
think this is a question of profound national leadership in
the national emergency, and it's about funding and valuing the

(01:14:47):
lives of women and children and everybody else impacted by
family violence, domestic homicide, sexual abuse, that whole continuum. We
fund what we value, and we must have leadership to
fund the entire infrastructure of anti violence in this country,

(01:15:09):
both prevention and response and escape and recovery and healing.

Speaker 2 (01:15:20):
Next episode. Beyond reasonable doubt, why hasn't Amy's case been
referred to the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions.

Speaker 25 (01:15:29):
On the Minister for Police's website, Amy said is distant
as a homicide, yet the Attorney General in the same
government is reluctant to report it to the DPP. Now,
how can you have those contradictions. This is not a
speeding find. A young woman lost her life. The government
ows that we as a community owe it not just
to her daughters, not just to her family, not just

(01:15:51):
to justice, but to Amy. We owe it to Amy
to get to the mottom of this.

Speaker 2 (01:15:57):
And what will it take to have the full truth
about Amy realized?

Speaker 23 (01:16:01):
If as a society we had systems in place to
deal with domestic violence more generally to provide refuge to women,
then we've been a lot better place than Maybe Amy
wouldn't have been shot. Maybe things never would have escalated
to the point of homicide, suicide or accident, whichever it was.

Speaker 6 (01:16:29):
So deation, we both know the nasty untiling.

Speaker 5 (01:16:45):
Me until.

Speaker 1 (01:16:55):
If you knew Amy and have information, any information about
her death, we'd love to hear from you. Just email
us at the Truth about Amy at seven dot com
dot au. That's s e v E N. The Truth
about Amy at seven dot com dot au, or visit

(01:17:21):
our website sevenews dot com dot au. Forward slash the
Truth about Amy. You can also send us an anonymous
tip at www dot the Truth about Amy dot com.
If you're on Facebook or Instagram, you can follow us
to see photos and updates relevant to the case, but

(01:17:44):
for legal reasons, unfortunately, you won't be able to make
any comments. And remember, if you like what you're hearing,
don't forget to subscribe. Please rate and review our series
because it really helps new listeners to find us. Presenter

(01:18:07):
and executive producer Alison Sandy, Presenter and investigative journalist Liam Bartlett,
Sound design Mark Wright, Assistant producer Cassie Woodward, Graphics Jason Blandford,
and special thanks to Tim Clark and Brian Seymour. This

(01:18:41):
is a Seven News production.