November 3, 2024 • 44 mins
After escaping from a domestic violence situation, Elise Phillips has dedicated her life to helping others facing similar challenges. Her strength and understanding of what’s involved provides invaluable insight into the situation Amy was facing just before she died and what’s required to overcome the biggest issue currently facing the nation.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast contains information and details relating to suicide. We
urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline on
thirteen eleven fourteen thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at
lifeline dot org dot au.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Hello, Welcome to the eighth installment of Conversations. Today we
are joined by our special guest, Domestic Violence New South
Wales Deputy CEO, Elise Phillips.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Welcome release, Thanks Alison, happy to be here now.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Usually we will be joined by Liam Bartlett and Tim Clark,
but both of them Liam's gone to Melbourne and Tim
is in a trial, so just me today anyway. Just
a little bit of background on you. You're a registered
psychologist with over thirteen years experience in leadership roles in
the government sector. You haven't lived experience of domestic violence
(01:04):
and family violence and are passionate about influencing systems level
change to increase safety, prevent violence, bring healing for victim
survivors and hold people who use violence accountable. You bring
strong stakeholder relationships, having spent the past three years working
in the domestic family violence sector and advocating with government
(01:27):
for greater investment where it is most needed. Before this,
you worked as a counselor, group worker and a manager
in family services.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
That's me.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah, thank you, Elie. It's very impressive credentials there. But
also you know obviously you've had a challenging like yourself.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Yeah. I was working on the frontlines and supporting frontline
counselors and group workers working with families for many years.
And after my own marriage and because of domestic effect
family violence, I decided that I wanted to put my
professional expertise and my lived expertise together are to make
(02:07):
a difference where it's most needed. Because we've just got
incredibly vulnerable people experiencing domestic and family violence, including both
women and children and young people, and so wanted to
be able to try and make a difference. And I
suppose I do that in my current role working for
(02:27):
Domestic Violence in New South Wales by trying to bring
about changes at the systemic levels. So we are a
peak organization. We represent almost two hundred people who are
responding to domestic and family violence, both individual practitioners as
well as services like refugees counseling, case management services, legal
(02:51):
services services that focus on First Nations people and microant
and refugee communities and services right across New southwad in metro,
regional and rural areas. We listen to kind of people
on the front lines who are doing this work day
in and day out, and then we talk to government
and we talk to police, and we talk to courts,
(03:12):
and we advocate for things to improve in terms of legislation,
in terms of training and support for people who are responding,
and advocating most importantly for funding so that services are
adequately resourced to help all of the people who need
it in a timely way.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Okay, there's a lot of questions that jump into my
head just having listened to all of that. First of all,
how different are you from the person who came out
of that relationship back in the day to who you
are now.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Look, I think that you know, I haven't even probably
even reflected on that question. My life is very different.
My life is very different. I have a different job,
my home life is incredibly different. Has been a process
of recovery and healing. But for many victim survivors, particularly
(04:05):
people who have to co parent with the person who
was abusive and violent towards them, there's no end point.
Leaving a relationship doesn't necessarily mean that control or abuse ends,
It just changes. And having to coperent with someone is
(04:26):
really challenging when there is a history of domestic and
family violence. So it's a day to day journey even now.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
I'd imagine when you're coming out or something like that,
your self esteem and everything like that would be at
sort of a low point and to be able to
transition to the advocating role and to be proactive the
way I mean, was that an easy journey to make.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
I think that you gain a lot of strength and
courage from being able to leave. It's such a difficult
thing to leave an abusive relationship because victom survivors are
often having to choose between violence and poverty, between violence
and homelessness. There are so many systems to navigate. If
(05:11):
you report to police, you're engaged with the criminal justice
system as well as having to you know, when there
is custody of children or financial settlements go through the
family law system. So there are so many challenges and
so much life adamin to kind of navigate in that process.
But coming out the other side, you gain a lot
(05:33):
of your integrity and self respect back from having taken
those very difficult steps to gain independence back and freedom
to take control back over your own life. And there's
a lot of privilege in my story as a white
woman who was educated and was working and had an income.
(05:57):
I'm very mindful that there were fewer barriers is that
I had to overcome compared to women who might not
be working, might not have access to income, might not
have family or friends to be able to support them.
So being able to use my voice and advocate for
system reform and system that better responds to victim survivors
(06:20):
no matter who they are or their circumstances, that is
kind of a way that I can make meaning out
of the experiences that I've had and try and make
the world a bit of a better, safer place for
my children.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Were you surprise when you got into the advocate role
how prevalent it was and how many barriers still existed.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
We know that domestic and family violence is far more
prevalent than many of us realize, and this is one
of the things that we really need to shift if
we want to be able to reduce the prevalence of
domestic and family violence. We need to first recognize when
it's happening and recognize that we really do have some
serious challenges in this country. We know that victims, survivors, themselves,
(07:09):
their friends and family around them may struggle to identify
their experience as violence or abuse, but as a society,
we're gradually increasing our awareness of this issue and our
understanding of what it looks like. Even if a victim
does know that what they're experiencing is not okay, they
might not be able to report it to others right
away because of shame and stigma, because the perpetrator leads
(07:34):
them to think that they are to blame, because the
fears of wanting to burden friends or family, or fews
that they won't be believed. As a society, we sometimes
hold on to the good bloke mentality and find it
hard to believe that a man who is friendly and
calm and seemingly a good dad could be abusing their
partner or their children behind closed doors, and in some cases,
(07:57):
victims have very legitimate fears that if they tell someone
what's going on, or if they try to leave, that
violence and abuse will escalate. We know that it's when
victim survivors are preparing to leave or when they do
leave an abusive relationship that they are at greatest risk,
and that's when domestic and family violence homicides are much
(08:18):
more likely to occur. So we definitely need to kind
of raise awareness of the prevalence, and we need to
start to change community attitudes. Many people still think, despite
the media reports and protests marching in the streets, that
domestic in family violence isn't happening in their local community.
(08:39):
They think that this is happening to other people in
other areas. And what we know is that domestic and
family violence affects families in every community, no matter where
you live, no matter how affluent the suburb, and ignoring
that reality allows this problem to continue. If we recognize it,
then we realize we can all play a role in
(09:01):
creating a safer society.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
I'm still staggered by how how we got here, you know,
to this point where it's still so commonplace that I mean,
we think we've evolved so much, right, and it's great
that in the last ten years since Amy died, for example,
that we have words like coerce of control and gas lighting,
(09:23):
which are you know, even our kids know those words. Now.
It's terrific, it's you know, because certainly that wasn't around
when I was growing up, So that's good at least.
But the term hidden homicide is that something that you
have come across or is that a term that's used.
I mean in England it's very much used and a
(09:44):
lot of certainly all the cases I look at involving
women and maybe that you know, I haven't really looked
at the male cases yet. I haven't had that opportunity,
but certainly that the female cases they're all being hidden homicides.
Is this something that you've known about for a long time?
Speaker 3 (10:01):
It's not a term that we use commonplace in the
domestic family violence sector Here in Australia. We have the
Domestic Violence Death Review Team here in New South Wales
and there are similar teams in other jurisdictions in Australia
that look at murders and particularly when they suspect that
(10:23):
domestic and family violence has occurred, and identify what were
the missed opportunities in that case to be able to intervene,
to be able to put supports in place, and to
be able to protect those victim survivors. But we don't
yet see government implementing the recommendations of those reports consistently,
(10:44):
and there are still a number of recommendations from those
reports that are yet to be implemented, either in states
and territories or at the national level.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Obviously, femocide is certainly something that's been identified. Is that
something that your organization looks into as well.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Yeah, definitely. We certainly watched the Counting Dead Women statistics
to kind of look at how we're tracking in the
number of women's lives that are being taken during the
domestic in the family violence and the most recent New
South Wales Death Review Team report showed that almost half
(11:25):
of the people who were killed in domestic and family
violence circumstances hadn't reported to police. And it's really crucial
that we don't assume because someone hasn't reported violence and
abuse to the police, It's really important that we don't
assume that there wasn't violence and abuse occurring, because we
know that there are many barriers again in the way
(11:47):
of people reporting to police, particularly for migrant and refugee women,
when they might be language barriers, their visa status might
be dependent on their partner, and they might be fearful
of not being believed. First Nations women are fearful that
of chop protective services, and then if they make reports
(12:08):
that their children could be removed from their care, or
they might also be fearful about backlash within their community
if they report, or fearful that if their partner is
locked up that they are going to become another debt
in custody. So in a system that has so many
challenges like that that get in the way of reporting
to police, it's really crucial that we do investigate cases
(12:33):
thoroughly and not assume that because of police report hasn't
been made that the abuse kind of been that bad.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Yeah, well, it's a majority, isn't it. Really my understanding
the majority of people in domestic violence situations don't actually
report it to police.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Yeah. Yeah, despite the fact that we've had massive increases
in reports to police. You know, it's hard to believe
that a f few years ago, domestic in the family
violence wasn't a crime. And it's been this year in
twenty twenty four that we've celebrated the establishment of the
first women's refuge that was established Elsie's Place, in nineteen
(13:11):
seventy four, So we really have come a huge way
in just fifty years. It is hard to realize how
far we still have to go. But we shouldn't assume
that more people are being abusive now than in the
past just because reporting rates are increasing. Sometimes reporting rates
are increasing because people know that help is available, and
(13:33):
that's a good thing if people are reaching out for
help sooner rather than later.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Yes, I don't think there's any well, there might be,
but certainly in my reviewing of figures and things like that,
it's not this idea that all of a sudden people
are becoming abusive. As you say, it's only been fifty
years where it's considered a crime and that still baffles me.
And the fact that you still have the majority not
(13:57):
reporting it. That is what are currently the biggest challenges.
For example, I understand this happened in Wa. There was
footage of some of a woman being hit and battered
by her partner at the time, but she wouldn't sign
a statement because obviously she was fitful, right, even though
there was proof. But it has to happen, right that
(14:20):
they have to actually sign off on it. It can't
just be reported or reflected if they don't agree to
sign a statement.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
These are some of the challenges that we face because
the legislation is different from one state and territory to another.
So in New South Wales where I'm faced, for example,
police have a duty of care. If they have a
duty if they believe that domestic and family violence is occurring,
they have an obligation to take out an apprehensive domestic
(14:52):
in family violence order to protect the person who is
being harmed, regardless of whether the person wants that to
be taken out or not, so that decision is actually
taken out of the victim survivor's hands. That was a
reform that was made quite some time ago because of
the challenges that police were experiencing where they wanted to
(15:13):
take action but victim survivors were fearful that that was
going to lead to an escalation in abuse. It's in fact,
perhaps somewhat easier now that victim survivors you can say,
well that that wasn't my call, that was the police's decision.
But still picking up that phone to call police in
the first instance, it used a significant challenge to overcome,
(15:37):
although there are of course other circumstances when other parties
might hear or see abuse and report to police on
behalf of the victim survivor.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
What are the big things that could happen now do
you think that would help victim survivors?
Speaker 3 (15:58):
The biggest thing that we need is fun. The domestic
and family violence sector has been historically underfunded and under resourced.
The scale and the cost of domestic and family violence
to our country is estimated to be twenty six billion
dollars per year and commonwealth investment is currently sitting at
about three point four billion. If we're really going to
(16:22):
get serious about preventing violence, it's estimated that responses should
make up nine to twelve percent of the government's expenditure.
At the moment, it's about three percent of the federal
government's expenditure five percent in New South Wales, so we're
not seeing enough investment in responding to this issue. Prevention
(16:44):
of violence being requires that we invest in primary prevention,
which is stopping it before it starts by changing community attitudes,
and that needs to happen in schools, in workplaces, through
sporting institutions, and through media camps. We also need early
intervention where people who are at risk of experiencing, for
(17:06):
perpetrating violence are supported to change their trajectory. We need
the obvious, which is supports and responses for people who
are experiencing violence or using violence, and we need much
more investment in recovery oriented services. If we are able
to help victim survivors to get their life back on track,
(17:29):
if we can make sure they have housing, support them
back into employment, and ensure that they and their children
have the therapeutic supports that they need, then investing in
that in the short term is actually going to save costs.
In the long term, it's also going to mean that
we limit the intergenerational transmission of violence from one generation
(17:52):
to another, because the heartbreaking reality is if a child
or young person is exposed to violence, they are more
likely to go on to be either a victim or
a perpetrator of violence in the future. And we just
have to stop that trajectory. But we can't do it
without investment and resources.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
What are the latest steps that you can tell me
in relation to just any that you might know offhand,
just to give people a bit of perspective on how
prevalent it is.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
Yeah, we know that it's roughly one in four women
who will experience domestic and family violence over the course
of their lifetime, and the Australian Child Male Treatment study
recently released some really concerning stats around the high rates
of children and young people reporting that they're experiencing domestic
(18:45):
and family violence in their childhood as well. So we
do know that this is a prevalent issue and it
does need a better response. We also need to be
doing better in collecting data. We need more consistent and
accurate reporting on domestic and family violence so that we
(19:06):
can understand the patterns and identify those key moments where
we can intervene.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
But as you mentioned, it is a case that I
mean seems to be unanimous across everyone I speak to
in the industry that the leaving part is certainly the
most dangerous time for a victim. Speaking of that, you've
had a chance, hopefully to catch up a little bit
with Amy Wensley's so just looking at it just your
(19:33):
overall sort of perspective. What were your thoughts as you
were listening to Amy's story.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
We're not in a position to comment on specific cases,
but I guess generally speaking out of you, is that
all cases where someone has died need to be treated
seriously and investigated thoroughly. We saw in Amy's case that
she was taking steps to if the home where the
(20:01):
abuse was happening, whether that would have been leaving for
good or leaving for a time, it does fit that
profile where we see that risk escalates when victim survivors
attempt to leave, and we know that police need to
consider whether domestic and family violence is part of the
(20:22):
picture in each and every call out that they attend,
even if there hasn't been a history of reporting to
police in the past. The other thing we need is
for victim survivors to be believed. You know, too often
we hear victim survivors tell us that they tried to
disclose what they're experiencing, but they weren't believed. And we
(20:45):
know that that happens more often for First Nations women
and for migrant and refugee people. So that's another thing
that we need to get rap.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
What about victim blaming in these sorts of situations.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Have you come across that, Yeah, we kind of have
a for that in the domestic and family for sector.
It's called misidentification when the victim survivor is falsely identified
as the perpetrator. And this really requires that we have
a better understanding of how people who have experienced trauma
(21:18):
may behave. Sometimes we have this view of what a
typical victim might look like, someone who's downtrodden, who is passive,
who you know, just curls up in a ball, and
that's not always the case. There are times when a
victim survivor may be angry and frustrated at the abuse
(21:39):
that they're experiencing or the fact that the system is
failing to protect them. They might be distressed or aggressive
when first responders, including police, attend a call out. Meanwhile,
there are cases where the person who is causing harm
might be cool, calm and collected and carries and it's
(22:01):
in those circumstances when women are more likely to not
be believed. It's much more likely to occur when people
are first nations because we have systemic racism and discrimination
that continues to occur, and it's more likely to happen
(22:21):
when there's language barriers as well. For understandable reasons, police
have such a difficult job. They're called out in the
heat of the moment, and we know that domestic and
family violence makes up such a significant portion of the
work that they do day in and day out. They're
having to make split second decisions. They're having to make
(22:42):
judgments based on the evidence before them in that particular moment.
They don't always have the history. And in New South
Wales in this year there's been the criminalization of coercive control,
so coercive control is now considered a crime here in
the South Wares, which previously wasn't the case. Similar legislation
(23:05):
is being implemented in Queensland and considered in South Australia,
and this legislation could be a game changer because it
means that police are required to look at a pattern
of behavior. They're not just looking at what has happened
in that one incident from the day when they were
called out, but they're actually required to investigate has there
(23:27):
been a history of abuse and control in the past.
Is a victim survivor being restricted from having financial independence?
Are they being restricted from practicing their religion or their culture?
Are they being isolated from friends and family and required
(23:48):
to do things the way that the perpetrator wants them
to be done because of the fear and threat of violence.
It's our hope that if police can start to investigate
patterns of behavior that occur over time, that we're going
to get better at identifying when couci control is happening,
(24:09):
and better at a realizing that just because a victim
survivor might be aggressive or might respond with force to
the abuse that they're experiencing in one incident, it doesn't
necessarily mean that they're the perpetrator and they are still
the person most in need of protection, even though they
(24:30):
might not appeal like the ideal of victim on that
one day.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
I guess that's with everything anyway. I mean, that's the
way these things work. And particularly if you get to
a point whether survive well, there is no survivor that
they're not there to defend themselves. That would be more problematic,
wouldn't it.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Yeah, certainly, And in circumstances like that, ideally there would
be investigations undertaken and a number of people interviewed in
order to gather a full picture of what had happened
in the lead up to that event.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
That's the thing. It would take days to be able
to do that properly. This is something that when you're
talking about the First Nations and people from different backgrounds,
I've definitely seen a lot where it is so like
just with reports that are online that is so much
more problematic, isn't it to a massive extent?
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (25:26):
Yeah, we know that Aboriginal women are much more likely
to be killed due to domestic and family silence. The
rate of Aboriginal women being hospitalized is forty times the
rate of non Indigenous women, and it's important to point
out that often it's a non indigenous perpetrator abusing an
(25:51):
Aboriginal woman, and so it is absolutely crucial that we
are looking at how we can respond more effectively.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
But it's those marginalized people that are also treated the
worst by authorities. How do you improve that? What do
you do about that?
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Yeah? I mean it would be nice to think that
everyone is treated the same under our judicial responses, but
there are well documented issues of systemic racism and discrimination
in the way in which services and systems and the
people working within those systems respond to people who are
First Nations or from migrant and refugee backgrounds. While we
(26:34):
know that police are trying to address this through regular
and ongoing cultural awareness and anti racism training, we need
to be doing more in this space here in New
South Wales, just a few weeks ago there was police
officers themselves coming out to talk about toxic cultures within
(26:56):
the New Southwolk Police Force and referring to it as
a boys club and suggesting that there is still significant
cultural change that needs to happen for these systems and
structures to be responding more effectively. Now we hear from
our members and from bites survivors that there are many
(27:16):
cases where police officers do respond in an appropriate, professional,
compassionate and trauble informed way, but the concern is around
the inconsistency are around the fact that that's not necessarily
a guarantee that there are times when responsors are far
from ideal and it's not just about training individual police
(27:41):
officers either. The system in its entirety needs more resources.
We understand the pressure, or we can try to understand
the pressure that police officers are under when they're attending
a call out and that they know in the time
they're spending doing that investigation, there's five more cases piling up.
We know that domestic and family flience cases often have
(28:04):
more time continuing paperwork that takes police officers offline to
be completed. So and we also know here in New
South Wales that there are a high number of vacant
positions that are yet to be filled. So we really
need more resources for police and justice systems to be
(28:25):
able to investigate thoroughly and to be able to provide
those best practice responses and do the cultural change that
is required.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Do you also investigate or look at statistics for how
many family domestic victims end up taking their own lives.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
It's something that has been identified as needing further investigation.
So the federal government recently commissioned a rapid review into prevention,
and one of the recommendations of that review, I think
it was in Summer's in partition who is pushing for
this recommendation, was to do more investigation in the number
(29:07):
of people who experience domestic and family violence and then
go on to suicide. There is some data that indicate
that experiencing domestic and family violence is a risk factor
for suicide, but we definitely need to continue to do
that research to better understand the link between victimization of
(29:31):
domestic and family violence and suicide. In New South Wales,
for example, the Domestic Fialanced Death Review Team has been
able to identify that almost half of the female suicides
had recorded history of domestic and family violence. So there
does seem to be a substantial.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Link, yes, but how many are actual real suicides?
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Yeah, that's right. We haven't got the data that you
can tell us with any confidence the likelihood of the
situations being a suicide versus a homicide. We've definitely much
more research to be occurring in that space so that
we're better equipped to be able to make these judgments
(30:17):
and able to gather all of the data that and
information that's needed to be able to make those determinations.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Are you ever consulted by authorities as to cases that
there is confusion over what the cause of death is,
whether there is you know, to substantiate whether you consider
this a domestic violent situation? Is that is your expertise
ever called in in those you know, maybe suspicious deaths
(30:52):
or that sort of thing.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
BESTIICIANC in South Wales haven't been consulted in those circumstances
that I'm aware of. I can't comment on whether other
domestic and family advance experts might have been consulted in
both types of circumstances. I'm just not sure.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Do you think there is a potential that domestic violence
experts be consulted in relation to sudden deaths that haven't
been determined.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
We know that the domestic and family advance workers do
have specialist expertise and specialist knowledge that other responders might
not have, and we do advocate for there to be
greater consultation with specialist services right across the board. You know,
we want to be consulted and have input into the
(31:42):
training that police and magistrates received. We want to have
input and oversight of police procedures and the bench books
that magistrates use to guide them in their decision making.
And there's also a place for co location. So in
(32:02):
New South Wales in the last couple of years there's
been a trial where domestic and family violence workers are
located day in and day are working in a police
station and that means that they are, you know, someone
on the ground that police officers can kind of check
in with and consult with on a day to day basis,
(32:24):
and they can also be there when a victim, survivor
or a family member or a friend kind of walks
through the doors and wants support, wants information, or wants
to make a statement. So this has been positively evaluated.
We're really optimistic that this trial will continue and that
it will actually be expanded eventually right across the state.
(32:46):
But we're hearing really positive things from the DFV workers,
from police, and from victim survivors who are getting more
trauma in formed responses. So I suppose we certainly think
that there's a place for that specialist knowledge and expertise
to be relied upon law.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
We have a lot of domestic violence survivors who listen
to our podcast and people who are currently in domestic
violent situations. What would you say to them? What tips
or recommendations would you give them on how to address
situations and how to I guess stay safe, particularly if
(33:28):
children are involved, because I'd imagine as a parent, right,
I'd be so afraid for their lives more than my own.
You don't want to endanger them in any way. How
do you leave safely?
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Yeah, it's really important that safety is the number one priority,
and people who are in that situation day in and
day out, are hyper vigilant and they're highly attuned to
the to risk. We kind of refer to them as
(33:59):
being the ex but in that situation about how to
keep themselves safe, having a safety plan can be really useful,
having a plan around where you will go, what you
will do what you will take if violence and abuse escalates,
And there are domestic and family violence specialists that are
able to help victim survivors to prepare and write a
(34:22):
safety plan. You can do that by contacting one eight
hundred respect or other similar services across the different states
and jurisdictions. We know that for some survivors, they feel
that it's safer to stay than it is to leave,
because many victim survivors know that the family law system
(34:48):
will require that their children continue to have contact with
the abuser even if they do leave. And when you're
living with a perpetrator, you're there and you can protect
your kids and you can keep them safe or safer.
But if your kids are having contact with the perpetrator
after you've left, when you're not there to keep them safe,
(35:09):
that's one of the significant barriers that actually makes it
harder for people to leave. They're sometimes fearful about what,
Who's going to keep my kids safe if I'm not
there to do it. And we need to continue to
look at our family law system and make sure that
women are being believed in that system when they are
reporting that violence and abuse is occurring. There are some
(35:31):
challenges in between our family law system and which is
federal and our state based child protection systems. But you know,
for bit the survivors who are listening, we would encourage
them to know that there are helps and supports available
for you if and when you are able to reach
(35:53):
out for support. The number of refugees is growing, and
so you know that may is that that crisis housing
is more available than it has been in the past.
And we also have the Escaping Violence Payment five thousand
dollars payment from the federal government. Fifteen hundred dollars is
provided in cash and the remainder is provided in goods
(36:16):
and services. That helps people to be able to rebuild
their life if and when they choose to leave.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
That is a very scary situation you just described. Is
there a way if a victim can prove the violence
and that they're also a threat to their children, that
they can prevent their children from being placed in that situation?
You know, it's just supervised visits or things like that.
How would they go about that?
Speaker 3 (36:45):
There were some amendments to the legislation recently which have
kind of watered down. We previously had presumption of equal
shared parental responsibility and that's kind of been watered down
now so that courts are required to give more consideration
to whether there has been domestic in family violence occurring.
(37:07):
Some of the challenges, however, is that the survivors, for
the reasons we've already discussed, may not have reported the
violence and abuse that they've experienced to police. It might
be something that they haven't shared or that they've only
shared with friends and families, so that can make it
more difficult to prove or provide evidence to support their claim.
(37:27):
But one thing that we do encourage people to do
is to start recording what they're experiencing, even if they're
not planning to leave or not planning to leave for
a while. If you can start recording what's going on,
then you're going to have that information at your fingertips
(37:49):
if you need to use it in future. In New
South Wales, the police created an app called the empower
You App that actually is a place where you can
capture notes, you can capture photos. There's information about support
services in that app as well, and you can also
send the data to a friend to keep if it's
(38:13):
not safe for you to keep that information on your
own phone, particularly if you're worried that the perpetrator might
be using fyware to track your phone. So being able
to capture information about what's going on can be useful
later down the track if and when you want to
report or provide evidence through the criminal justice system or
(38:34):
the family law system.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Well, it's very complicated, isn't it. It's a lot to
take in, and it would be very overwhelming for victims,
particularly they're just trying to hold a household together.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
Yeah, it's a really difficult time to you know, because
often people are having you know, when you leave, you're
having to deal with police, you're having to you maybe
apply it to send a link the benefits, you're having
to deal with child support, you're potentially having to to
find a roof over your head, as well as if
(39:04):
you're employed, trying to maintain employment or get the kids
to education and childcare. And that's what's really good for
the general community to understand. Then it kind of chicks
away at some of those victim blaming why didn't they
leave type attitudes. That recognition of how incredibly difficult it
is to navigate all of those systems all at once,
(39:26):
and there's a need for governments to look at how
they can make those systems more use a friendly, and
how they can reduce the red tape in order to
access services.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
It's definitely a case of one size doesn't fit all, though,
isn't it.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
Yeah, Yeah, that's right, And we've been advocating with the
new Southlas government Housing service recently around what they can
do to make sure that they have flexible person centered responses.
Some victim survivors might not want to be located where
the perpetrator is. They might actually want to be moved
(40:01):
to a different community, whereas for others, they might want
to be housed within their local community because that's where
their work and their friends and their family and their
support are. So it's really crucial that every person has
a tailored response to whatever it is that they need,
lather than the system saying oh, well there's a house
available here, so that's your only option.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Last question, abos dbos are they strong enough? Are they
complied with? Is there enough weight to support them being breached?
Speaker 3 (40:31):
Look here in your Sufflat things are getting better. Just
a couple of months ago in your Stufas government passed
some new aggravated breach legislation. So you know, previously if
someone did the wrong thing and contravened the conditions of
the apprehended domestic violence order, they would be breached. But
(40:54):
now there's two additional aggravated breach options where someone who
who is breaching continuously but perhaps they're not significant breaches,
but when you look at it altogether, you realize that
this is a pattern of someone who is making persistence.
You're persistently pushing the boundaries. They are able to be
(41:17):
charged under this new legislation, which has more significant consequences
and we hope will have more of a deterring effect.
And then there's another aggravated breach option for when perpetrators
breached the conditions of that ADVO in a really serious
and significant manner. So things are improving the capacity of
(41:40):
police to take action when those conditions are breached is changing.
And the other change we've had in New South Wales
is that we have electronic monitoring for offenders who are
released on bail. Previously, we only had ankle bracelets on
offenders when they were released from prison at the end
of their custodial sentence, whereas now we have people who
(42:02):
are serious offenders who are going to be monitored even
if they have it yet been convicted, and our hope
is that that is going to save life and keep
people safe.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
That absolutely, that's a great idea. Have you ever heard
of a lifetime ABO or DBO?
Speaker 3 (42:19):
Only when I heard it referenced in the podcast, it's
not something that I'm aware of here in New South Wales,
So yeah, that's something new to have a look at.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
I remember speaking to Anna about it at the time.
I thought, I've never even heard of one of those, And.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
I certainly know that victims will others to have that
fear that the ABBO is the only thing that's keeping
them safe, and then when it does expire, that the
coercion and the control and the abuse will start back
up again. There is an option for people to go
back to court and apply for an extension, but if
(42:59):
there haven't been in breaches then it might be harder
to get that extension over the line. So these are
some of the fews and challenges that we have, you know,
when there are short term time frames on some of
these orders.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
Elise, is there anything else you'd like to say?
Speaker 3 (43:17):
I think just that we know how important the role
of police is in responding to domestic and family violence.
And the challenges that they face in their day to
day jobs, and that you know, we've got a really
good relationship with police. We have opportunities to talk to
them about their training and their systems and their processes.
(43:39):
So you know, we're ever optimistic that things will continue
to improve, but we're also not afraid to speak up
when we think that things aren't being done in ways
that will protect the survivors and keep them safe.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
Alice, I want to thank you for your time today
and the work that you do. It's so very important
and you know it is making a difference and in
New South Wales they really seem to be leaning the way,
so that must be heartening and part of that would
be obviously the role that your organization plays. So thank you.
Speaker 3 (44:16):
Thanks. Heartening
This podcast contains information and details relating to suicide. We
urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline on
thirteen eleven fourteen thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at
lifeline dot org dot au.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Hello, Welcome to the eighth installment of Conversations. Today we
are joined by our special guest, Domestic Violence New South
Wales Deputy CEO, Elise Phillips.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Welcome release, Thanks Alison, happy to be here now.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Usually we will be joined by Liam Bartlett and Tim Clark,
but both of them Liam's gone to Melbourne and Tim
is in a trial, so just me today anyway. Just
a little bit of background on you. You're a registered
psychologist with over thirteen years experience in leadership roles in
the government sector. You haven't lived experience of domestic violence
(01:04):
and family violence and are passionate about influencing systems level
change to increase safety, prevent violence, bring healing for victim
survivors and hold people who use violence accountable. You bring
strong stakeholder relationships, having spent the past three years working
in the domestic family violence sector and advocating with government
(01:27):
for greater investment where it is most needed. Before this,
you worked as a counselor, group worker and a manager
in family services.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
That's me.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah, thank you, Elie. It's very impressive credentials there. But
also you know obviously you've had a challenging like yourself.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Yeah. I was working on the frontlines and supporting frontline
counselors and group workers working with families for many years.
And after my own marriage and because of domestic effect
family violence, I decided that I wanted to put my
professional expertise and my lived expertise together are to make
(02:07):
a difference where it's most needed. Because we've just got
incredibly vulnerable people experiencing domestic and family violence, including both
women and children and young people, and so wanted to
be able to try and make a difference. And I
suppose I do that in my current role working for
(02:27):
Domestic Violence in New South Wales by trying to bring
about changes at the systemic levels. So we are a
peak organization. We represent almost two hundred people who are
responding to domestic and family violence, both individual practitioners as
well as services like refugees counseling, case management services, legal
(02:51):
services services that focus on First Nations people and microant
and refugee communities and services right across New southwad in metro,
regional and rural areas. We listen to kind of people
on the front lines who are doing this work day
in and day out, and then we talk to government
and we talk to police, and we talk to courts,
(03:12):
and we advocate for things to improve in terms of legislation,
in terms of training and support for people who are responding,
and advocating most importantly for funding so that services are
adequately resourced to help all of the people who need
it in a timely way.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Okay, there's a lot of questions that jump into my
head just having listened to all of that. First of all,
how different are you from the person who came out
of that relationship back in the day to who you
are now.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Look, I think that you know, I haven't even probably
even reflected on that question. My life is very different.
My life is very different. I have a different job,
my home life is incredibly different. Has been a process
of recovery and healing. But for many victim survivors, particularly
(04:05):
people who have to co parent with the person who
was abusive and violent towards them, there's no end point.
Leaving a relationship doesn't necessarily mean that control or abuse ends,
It just changes. And having to coperent with someone is
(04:26):
really challenging when there is a history of domestic and
family violence. So it's a day to day journey even now.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
I'd imagine when you're coming out or something like that,
your self esteem and everything like that would be at
sort of a low point and to be able to
transition to the advocating role and to be proactive the
way I mean, was that an easy journey to make.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
I think that you gain a lot of strength and
courage from being able to leave. It's such a difficult
thing to leave an abusive relationship because victom survivors are
often having to choose between violence and poverty, between violence
and homelessness. There are so many systems to navigate. If
(05:11):
you report to police, you're engaged with the criminal justice
system as well as having to you know, when there
is custody of children or financial settlements go through the
family law system. So there are so many challenges and
so much life adamin to kind of navigate in that process.
But coming out the other side, you gain a lot
(05:33):
of your integrity and self respect back from having taken
those very difficult steps to gain independence back and freedom
to take control back over your own life. And there's
a lot of privilege in my story as a white
woman who was educated and was working and had an income.
(05:57):
I'm very mindful that there were fewer barriers is that
I had to overcome compared to women who might not
be working, might not have access to income, might not
have family or friends to be able to support them.
So being able to use my voice and advocate for
system reform and system that better responds to victim survivors
(06:20):
no matter who they are or their circumstances, that is
kind of a way that I can make meaning out
of the experiences that I've had and try and make
the world a bit of a better, safer place for
my children.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Were you surprise when you got into the advocate role
how prevalent it was and how many barriers still existed.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
We know that domestic and family violence is far more
prevalent than many of us realize, and this is one
of the things that we really need to shift if
we want to be able to reduce the prevalence of
domestic and family violence. We need to first recognize when
it's happening and recognize that we really do have some
serious challenges in this country. We know that victims, survivors, themselves,
(07:09):
their friends and family around them may struggle to identify
their experience as violence or abuse, but as a society,
we're gradually increasing our awareness of this issue and our
understanding of what it looks like. Even if a victim
does know that what they're experiencing is not okay, they
might not be able to report it to others right
away because of shame and stigma, because the perpetrator leads
(07:34):
them to think that they are to blame, because the
fears of wanting to burden friends or family, or fews
that they won't be believed. As a society, we sometimes
hold on to the good bloke mentality and find it
hard to believe that a man who is friendly and
calm and seemingly a good dad could be abusing their
partner or their children behind closed doors, and in some cases,
(07:57):
victims have very legitimate fears that if they tell someone
what's going on, or if they try to leave, that
violence and abuse will escalate. We know that it's when
victim survivors are preparing to leave or when they do
leave an abusive relationship that they are at greatest risk,
and that's when domestic and family violence homicides are much
(08:18):
more likely to occur. So we definitely need to kind
of raise awareness of the prevalence, and we need to
start to change community attitudes. Many people still think, despite
the media reports and protests marching in the streets, that
domestic in family violence isn't happening in their local community.
(08:39):
They think that this is happening to other people in
other areas. And what we know is that domestic and
family violence affects families in every community, no matter where
you live, no matter how affluent the suburb, and ignoring
that reality allows this problem to continue. If we recognize it,
then we realize we can all play a role in
(09:01):
creating a safer society.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
I'm still staggered by how how we got here, you know,
to this point where it's still so commonplace that I mean,
we think we've evolved so much, right, and it's great
that in the last ten years since Amy died, for example,
that we have words like coerce of control and gas lighting,
(09:23):
which are you know, even our kids know those words. Now.
It's terrific, it's you know, because certainly that wasn't around
when I was growing up, So that's good at least.
But the term hidden homicide is that something that you
have come across or is that a term that's used.
I mean in England it's very much used and a
(09:44):
lot of certainly all the cases I look at involving
women and maybe that you know, I haven't really looked
at the male cases yet. I haven't had that opportunity,
but certainly that the female cases they're all being hidden homicides.
Is this something that you've known about for a long time?
Speaker 3 (10:01):
It's not a term that we use commonplace in the
domestic family violence sector Here in Australia. We have the
Domestic Violence Death Review Team here in New South Wales
and there are similar teams in other jurisdictions in Australia
that look at murders and particularly when they suspect that
(10:23):
domestic and family violence has occurred, and identify what were
the missed opportunities in that case to be able to intervene,
to be able to put supports in place, and to
be able to protect those victim survivors. But we don't
yet see government implementing the recommendations of those reports consistently,
(10:44):
and there are still a number of recommendations from those
reports that are yet to be implemented, either in states
and territories or at the national level.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Obviously, femocide is certainly something that's been identified. Is that
something that your organization looks into as well.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Yeah, definitely. We certainly watched the Counting Dead Women statistics
to kind of look at how we're tracking in the
number of women's lives that are being taken during the
domestic in the family violence and the most recent New
South Wales Death Review Team report showed that almost half
(11:25):
of the people who were killed in domestic and family
violence circumstances hadn't reported to police. And it's really crucial
that we don't assume because someone hasn't reported violence and
abuse to the police, It's really important that we don't
assume that there wasn't violence and abuse occurring, because we
know that there are many barriers again in the way
(11:47):
of people reporting to police, particularly for migrant and refugee women,
when they might be language barriers, their visa status might
be dependent on their partner, and they might be fearful
of not being believed. First Nations women are fearful that
of chop protective services, and then if they make reports
(12:08):
that their children could be removed from their care, or
they might also be fearful about backlash within their community
if they report, or fearful that if their partner is
locked up that they are going to become another debt
in custody. So in a system that has so many
challenges like that that get in the way of reporting
to police, it's really crucial that we do investigate cases
(12:33):
thoroughly and not assume that because of police report hasn't
been made that the abuse kind of been that bad.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Yeah, well, it's a majority, isn't it. Really my understanding
the majority of people in domestic violence situations don't actually
report it to police.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Yeah. Yeah, despite the fact that we've had massive increases
in reports to police. You know, it's hard to believe
that a f few years ago, domestic in the family
violence wasn't a crime. And it's been this year in
twenty twenty four that we've celebrated the establishment of the
first women's refuge that was established Elsie's Place, in nineteen
(13:11):
seventy four, So we really have come a huge way
in just fifty years. It is hard to realize how
far we still have to go. But we shouldn't assume
that more people are being abusive now than in the
past just because reporting rates are increasing. Sometimes reporting rates
are increasing because people know that help is available, and
(13:33):
that's a good thing if people are reaching out for
help sooner rather than later.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Yes, I don't think there's any well, there might be,
but certainly in my reviewing of figures and things like that,
it's not this idea that all of a sudden people
are becoming abusive. As you say, it's only been fifty
years where it's considered a crime and that still baffles me.
And the fact that you still have the majority not
(13:57):
reporting it. That is what are currently the biggest challenges.
For example, I understand this happened in Wa. There was
footage of some of a woman being hit and battered
by her partner at the time, but she wouldn't sign
a statement because obviously she was fitful, right, even though
there was proof. But it has to happen, right that
(14:20):
they have to actually sign off on it. It can't
just be reported or reflected if they don't agree to
sign a statement.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
These are some of the challenges that we face because
the legislation is different from one state and territory to another.
So in New South Wales where I'm faced, for example,
police have a duty of care. If they have a
duty if they believe that domestic and family violence is occurring,
they have an obligation to take out an apprehensive domestic
(14:52):
in family violence order to protect the person who is
being harmed, regardless of whether the person wants that to
be taken out or not, so that decision is actually
taken out of the victim survivor's hands. That was a
reform that was made quite some time ago because of
the challenges that police were experiencing where they wanted to
(15:13):
take action but victim survivors were fearful that that was
going to lead to an escalation in abuse. It's in fact,
perhaps somewhat easier now that victim survivors you can say,
well that that wasn't my call, that was the police's decision.
But still picking up that phone to call police in
the first instance, it used a significant challenge to overcome,
(15:37):
although there are of course other circumstances when other parties
might hear or see abuse and report to police on
behalf of the victim survivor.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
What are the big things that could happen now do
you think that would help victim survivors?
Speaker 3 (15:58):
The biggest thing that we need is fun. The domestic
and family violence sector has been historically underfunded and under resourced.
The scale and the cost of domestic and family violence
to our country is estimated to be twenty six billion
dollars per year and commonwealth investment is currently sitting at
about three point four billion. If we're really going to
(16:22):
get serious about preventing violence, it's estimated that responses should
make up nine to twelve percent of the government's expenditure.
At the moment, it's about three percent of the federal
government's expenditure five percent in New South Wales, so we're
not seeing enough investment in responding to this issue. Prevention
(16:44):
of violence being requires that we invest in primary prevention,
which is stopping it before it starts by changing community attitudes,
and that needs to happen in schools, in workplaces, through
sporting institutions, and through media camps. We also need early
intervention where people who are at risk of experiencing, for
(17:06):
perpetrating violence are supported to change their trajectory. We need
the obvious, which is supports and responses for people who
are experiencing violence or using violence, and we need much
more investment in recovery oriented services. If we are able
to help victim survivors to get their life back on track,
(17:29):
if we can make sure they have housing, support them
back into employment, and ensure that they and their children
have the therapeutic supports that they need, then investing in
that in the short term is actually going to save costs.
In the long term, it's also going to mean that
we limit the intergenerational transmission of violence from one generation
(17:52):
to another, because the heartbreaking reality is if a child
or young person is exposed to violence, they are more
likely to go on to be either a victim or
a perpetrator of violence in the future. And we just
have to stop that trajectory. But we can't do it
without investment and resources.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
What are the latest steps that you can tell me
in relation to just any that you might know offhand,
just to give people a bit of perspective on how
prevalent it is.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
Yeah, we know that it's roughly one in four women
who will experience domestic and family violence over the course
of their lifetime, and the Australian Child Male Treatment study
recently released some really concerning stats around the high rates
of children and young people reporting that they're experiencing domestic
(18:45):
and family violence in their childhood as well. So we
do know that this is a prevalent issue and it
does need a better response. We also need to be
doing better in collecting data. We need more consistent and
accurate reporting on domestic and family violence so that we
(19:06):
can understand the patterns and identify those key moments where
we can intervene.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
But as you mentioned, it is a case that I
mean seems to be unanimous across everyone I speak to
in the industry that the leaving part is certainly the
most dangerous time for a victim. Speaking of that, you've
had a chance, hopefully to catch up a little bit
with Amy Wensley's so just looking at it just your
(19:33):
overall sort of perspective. What were your thoughts as you
were listening to Amy's story.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
We're not in a position to comment on specific cases,
but I guess generally speaking out of you, is that
all cases where someone has died need to be treated
seriously and investigated thoroughly. We saw in Amy's case that
she was taking steps to if the home where the
(20:01):
abuse was happening, whether that would have been leaving for
good or leaving for a time, it does fit that
profile where we see that risk escalates when victim survivors
attempt to leave, and we know that police need to
consider whether domestic and family violence is part of the
(20:22):
picture in each and every call out that they attend,
even if there hasn't been a history of reporting to
police in the past. The other thing we need is
for victim survivors to be believed. You know, too often
we hear victim survivors tell us that they tried to
disclose what they're experiencing, but they weren't believed. And we
(20:45):
know that that happens more often for First Nations women
and for migrant and refugee people. So that's another thing
that we need to get rap.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
What about victim blaming in these sorts of situations.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Have you come across that, Yeah, we kind of have
a for that in the domestic and family for sector.
It's called misidentification when the victim survivor is falsely identified
as the perpetrator. And this really requires that we have
a better understanding of how people who have experienced trauma
(21:18):
may behave. Sometimes we have this view of what a
typical victim might look like, someone who's downtrodden, who is passive,
who you know, just curls up in a ball, and
that's not always the case. There are times when a
victim survivor may be angry and frustrated at the abuse
(21:39):
that they're experiencing or the fact that the system is
failing to protect them. They might be distressed or aggressive
when first responders, including police, attend a call out. Meanwhile,
there are cases where the person who is causing harm
might be cool, calm and collected and carries and it's
(22:01):
in those circumstances when women are more likely to not
be believed. It's much more likely to occur when people
are first nations because we have systemic racism and discrimination
that continues to occur, and it's more likely to happen
(22:21):
when there's language barriers as well. For understandable reasons, police
have such a difficult job. They're called out in the
heat of the moment, and we know that domestic and
family violence makes up such a significant portion of the
work that they do day in and day out. They're
having to make split second decisions. They're having to make
(22:42):
judgments based on the evidence before them in that particular moment.
They don't always have the history. And in New South
Wales in this year there's been the criminalization of coercive control,
so coercive control is now considered a crime here in
the South Wares, which previously wasn't the case. Similar legislation
(23:05):
is being implemented in Queensland and considered in South Australia,
and this legislation could be a game changer because it
means that police are required to look at a pattern
of behavior. They're not just looking at what has happened
in that one incident from the day when they were
called out, but they're actually required to investigate has there
(23:27):
been a history of abuse and control in the past.
Is a victim survivor being restricted from having financial independence?
Are they being restricted from practicing their religion or their culture?
Are they being isolated from friends and family and required
(23:48):
to do things the way that the perpetrator wants them
to be done because of the fear and threat of violence.
It's our hope that if police can start to investigate
patterns of behavior that occur over time, that we're going
to get better at identifying when couci control is happening,
(24:09):
and better at a realizing that just because a victim
survivor might be aggressive or might respond with force to
the abuse that they're experiencing in one incident, it doesn't
necessarily mean that they're the perpetrator and they are still
the person most in need of protection, even though they
(24:30):
might not appeal like the ideal of victim on that
one day.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
I guess that's with everything anyway. I mean, that's the
way these things work. And particularly if you get to
a point whether survive well, there is no survivor that
they're not there to defend themselves. That would be more problematic,
wouldn't it.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Yeah, certainly, And in circumstances like that, ideally there would
be investigations undertaken and a number of people interviewed in
order to gather a full picture of what had happened
in the lead up to that event.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
That's the thing. It would take days to be able
to do that properly. This is something that when you're
talking about the First Nations and people from different backgrounds,
I've definitely seen a lot where it is so like
just with reports that are online that is so much
more problematic, isn't it to a massive extent?
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (25:26):
Yeah, we know that Aboriginal women are much more likely
to be killed due to domestic and family silence. The
rate of Aboriginal women being hospitalized is forty times the
rate of non Indigenous women, and it's important to point
out that often it's a non indigenous perpetrator abusing an
(25:51):
Aboriginal woman, and so it is absolutely crucial that we
are looking at how we can respond more effectively.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
But it's those marginalized people that are also treated the
worst by authorities. How do you improve that? What do
you do about that?
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Yeah? I mean it would be nice to think that
everyone is treated the same under our judicial responses, but
there are well documented issues of systemic racism and discrimination
in the way in which services and systems and the
people working within those systems respond to people who are
First Nations or from migrant and refugee backgrounds. While we
(26:34):
know that police are trying to address this through regular
and ongoing cultural awareness and anti racism training, we need
to be doing more in this space here in New
South Wales, just a few weeks ago there was police
officers themselves coming out to talk about toxic cultures within
(26:56):
the New Southwolk Police Force and referring to it as
a boys club and suggesting that there is still significant
cultural change that needs to happen for these systems and
structures to be responding more effectively. Now we hear from
our members and from bites survivors that there are many
(27:16):
cases where police officers do respond in an appropriate, professional,
compassionate and trauble informed way, but the concern is around
the inconsistency are around the fact that that's not necessarily
a guarantee that there are times when responsors are far
from ideal and it's not just about training individual police
(27:41):
officers either. The system in its entirety needs more resources.
We understand the pressure, or we can try to understand
the pressure that police officers are under when they're attending
a call out and that they know in the time
they're spending doing that investigation, there's five more cases piling up.
We know that domestic and family flience cases often have
(28:04):
more time continuing paperwork that takes police officers offline to
be completed. So and we also know here in New
South Wales that there are a high number of vacant
positions that are yet to be filled. So we really
need more resources for police and justice systems to be
(28:25):
able to investigate thoroughly and to be able to provide
those best practice responses and do the cultural change that
is required.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Do you also investigate or look at statistics for how
many family domestic victims end up taking their own lives.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
It's something that has been identified as needing further investigation.
So the federal government recently commissioned a rapid review into prevention,
and one of the recommendations of that review, I think
it was in Summer's in partition who is pushing for
this recommendation, was to do more investigation in the number
(29:07):
of people who experience domestic and family violence and then
go on to suicide. There is some data that indicate
that experiencing domestic and family violence is a risk factor
for suicide, but we definitely need to continue to do
that research to better understand the link between victimization of
(29:31):
domestic and family violence and suicide. In New South Wales,
for example, the Domestic Fialanced Death Review Team has been
able to identify that almost half of the female suicides
had recorded history of domestic and family violence. So there
does seem to be a substantial.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Link, yes, but how many are actual real suicides?
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Yeah, that's right. We haven't got the data that you
can tell us with any confidence the likelihood of the
situations being a suicide versus a homicide. We've definitely much
more research to be occurring in that space so that
we're better equipped to be able to make these judgments
(30:17):
and able to gather all of the data that and
information that's needed to be able to make those determinations.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Are you ever consulted by authorities as to cases that
there is confusion over what the cause of death is,
whether there is you know, to substantiate whether you consider
this a domestic violent situation? Is that is your expertise
ever called in in those you know, maybe suspicious deaths
(30:52):
or that sort of thing.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
BESTIICIANC in South Wales haven't been consulted in those circumstances
that I'm aware of. I can't comment on whether other
domestic and family advance experts might have been consulted in
both types of circumstances. I'm just not sure.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Do you think there is a potential that domestic violence
experts be consulted in relation to sudden deaths that haven't
been determined.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
We know that the domestic and family advance workers do
have specialist expertise and specialist knowledge that other responders might
not have, and we do advocate for there to be
greater consultation with specialist services right across the board. You know,
we want to be consulted and have input into the
(31:42):
training that police and magistrates received. We want to have
input and oversight of police procedures and the bench books
that magistrates use to guide them in their decision making.
And there's also a place for co location. So in
(32:02):
New South Wales in the last couple of years there's
been a trial where domestic and family violence workers are
located day in and day are working in a police
station and that means that they are, you know, someone
on the ground that police officers can kind of check
in with and consult with on a day to day basis,
(32:24):
and they can also be there when a victim, survivor
or a family member or a friend kind of walks
through the doors and wants support, wants information, or wants
to make a statement. So this has been positively evaluated.
We're really optimistic that this trial will continue and that
it will actually be expanded eventually right across the state.
(32:46):
But we're hearing really positive things from the DFV workers,
from police, and from victim survivors who are getting more
trauma in formed responses. So I suppose we certainly think
that there's a place for that specialist knowledge and expertise
to be relied upon law.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
We have a lot of domestic violence survivors who listen
to our podcast and people who are currently in domestic
violent situations. What would you say to them? What tips
or recommendations would you give them on how to address
situations and how to I guess stay safe, particularly if
(33:28):
children are involved, because I'd imagine as a parent, right,
I'd be so afraid for their lives more than my own.
You don't want to endanger them in any way. How
do you leave safely?
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Yeah, it's really important that safety is the number one priority,
and people who are in that situation day in and
day out, are hyper vigilant and they're highly attuned to
the to risk. We kind of refer to them as
(33:59):
being the ex but in that situation about how to
keep themselves safe, having a safety plan can be really useful,
having a plan around where you will go, what you
will do what you will take if violence and abuse escalates,
And there are domestic and family violence specialists that are
able to help victim survivors to prepare and write a
(34:22):
safety plan. You can do that by contacting one eight
hundred respect or other similar services across the different states
and jurisdictions. We know that for some survivors, they feel
that it's safer to stay than it is to leave,
because many victim survivors know that the family law system
(34:48):
will require that their children continue to have contact with
the abuser even if they do leave. And when you're
living with a perpetrator, you're there and you can protect
your kids and you can keep them safe or safer.
But if your kids are having contact with the perpetrator
after you've left, when you're not there to keep them safe,
(35:09):
that's one of the significant barriers that actually makes it
harder for people to leave. They're sometimes fearful about what,
Who's going to keep my kids safe if I'm not
there to do it. And we need to continue to
look at our family law system and make sure that
women are being believed in that system when they are
reporting that violence and abuse is occurring. There are some
(35:31):
challenges in between our family law system and which is
federal and our state based child protection systems. But you know,
for bit the survivors who are listening, we would encourage
them to know that there are helps and supports available
for you if and when you are able to reach
(35:53):
out for support. The number of refugees is growing, and
so you know that may is that that crisis housing
is more available than it has been in the past.
And we also have the Escaping Violence Payment five thousand
dollars payment from the federal government. Fifteen hundred dollars is
provided in cash and the remainder is provided in goods
(36:16):
and services. That helps people to be able to rebuild
their life if and when they choose to leave.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
That is a very scary situation you just described. Is
there a way if a victim can prove the violence
and that they're also a threat to their children, that
they can prevent their children from being placed in that situation?
You know, it's just supervised visits or things like that.
How would they go about that?
Speaker 3 (36:45):
There were some amendments to the legislation recently which have
kind of watered down. We previously had presumption of equal
shared parental responsibility and that's kind of been watered down
now so that courts are required to give more consideration
to whether there has been domestic in family violence occurring.
(37:07):
Some of the challenges, however, is that the survivors, for
the reasons we've already discussed, may not have reported the
violence and abuse that they've experienced to police. It might
be something that they haven't shared or that they've only
shared with friends and families, so that can make it
more difficult to prove or provide evidence to support their claim.
(37:27):
But one thing that we do encourage people to do
is to start recording what they're experiencing, even if they're
not planning to leave or not planning to leave for
a while. If you can start recording what's going on,
then you're going to have that information at your fingertips
(37:49):
if you need to use it in future. In New
South Wales, the police created an app called the empower
You App that actually is a place where you can
capture notes, you can capture photos. There's information about support
services in that app as well, and you can also
send the data to a friend to keep if it's
(38:13):
not safe for you to keep that information on your
own phone, particularly if you're worried that the perpetrator might
be using fyware to track your phone. So being able
to capture information about what's going on can be useful
later down the track if and when you want to
report or provide evidence through the criminal justice system or
(38:34):
the family law system.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Well, it's very complicated, isn't it. It's a lot to
take in, and it would be very overwhelming for victims,
particularly they're just trying to hold a household together.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
Yeah, it's a really difficult time to you know, because
often people are having you know, when you leave, you're
having to deal with police, you're having to you maybe
apply it to send a link the benefits, you're having
to deal with child support, you're potentially having to to
find a roof over your head, as well as if
(39:04):
you're employed, trying to maintain employment or get the kids
to education and childcare. And that's what's really good for
the general community to understand. Then it kind of chicks
away at some of those victim blaming why didn't they
leave type attitudes. That recognition of how incredibly difficult it
is to navigate all of those systems all at once,
(39:26):
and there's a need for governments to look at how
they can make those systems more use a friendly, and
how they can reduce the red tape in order to
access services.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
It's definitely a case of one size doesn't fit all, though,
isn't it.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
Yeah, Yeah, that's right, And we've been advocating with the
new Southlas government Housing service recently around what they can
do to make sure that they have flexible person centered responses.
Some victim survivors might not want to be located where
the perpetrator is. They might actually want to be moved
(40:01):
to a different community, whereas for others, they might want
to be housed within their local community because that's where
their work and their friends and their family and their
support are. So it's really crucial that every person has
a tailored response to whatever it is that they need,
lather than the system saying oh, well there's a house
available here, so that's your only option.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Last question, abos dbos are they strong enough? Are they
complied with? Is there enough weight to support them being breached?
Speaker 3 (40:31):
Look here in your Sufflat things are getting better. Just
a couple of months ago in your Stufas government passed
some new aggravated breach legislation. So you know, previously if
someone did the wrong thing and contravened the conditions of
the apprehended domestic violence order, they would be breached. But
(40:54):
now there's two additional aggravated breach options where someone who
who is breaching continuously but perhaps they're not significant breaches,
but when you look at it altogether, you realize that
this is a pattern of someone who is making persistence.
You're persistently pushing the boundaries. They are able to be
(41:17):
charged under this new legislation, which has more significant consequences
and we hope will have more of a deterring effect.
And then there's another aggravated breach option for when perpetrators
breached the conditions of that ADVO in a really serious
and significant manner. So things are improving the capacity of
(41:40):
police to take action when those conditions are breached is changing.
And the other change we've had in New South Wales
is that we have electronic monitoring for offenders who are
released on bail. Previously, we only had ankle bracelets on
offenders when they were released from prison at the end
of their custodial sentence, whereas now we have people who
(42:02):
are serious offenders who are going to be monitored even
if they have it yet been convicted, and our hope
is that that is going to save life and keep
people safe.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
That absolutely, that's a great idea. Have you ever heard
of a lifetime ABO or DBO?
Speaker 3 (42:19):
Only when I heard it referenced in the podcast, it's
not something that I'm aware of here in New South Wales,
So yeah, that's something new to have a look at.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
I remember speaking to Anna about it at the time.
I thought, I've never even heard of one of those, And.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
I certainly know that victims will others to have that
fear that the ABBO is the only thing that's keeping
them safe, and then when it does expire, that the
coercion and the control and the abuse will start back
up again. There is an option for people to go
back to court and apply for an extension, but if
(42:59):
there haven't been in breaches then it might be harder
to get that extension over the line. So these are
some of the fews and challenges that we have, you know,
when there are short term time frames on some of
these orders.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
Elise, is there anything else you'd like to say?
Speaker 3 (43:17):
I think just that we know how important the role
of police is in responding to domestic and family violence.
And the challenges that they face in their day to
day jobs, and that you know, we've got a really
good relationship with police. We have opportunities to talk to
them about their training and their systems and their processes.
(43:39):
So you know, we're ever optimistic that things will continue
to improve, but we're also not afraid to speak up
when we think that things aren't being done in ways
that will protect the survivors and keep them safe.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
Alice, I want to thank you for your time today
and the work that you do. It's so very important
and you know it is making a difference and in
New South Wales they really seem to be leaning the way,
so that must be heartening and part of that would
be obviously the role that your organization plays. So thank you.
Speaker 3 (44:16):
Thanks. Heartening
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