November 19, 2025 • 35 mins
If two teenage girls went missing today, would police just assume they’d run away from home? That assumption is why two Australian teenagers, Elaine Johnson and Kerry Anne Joel, have never been found.
Elaine was 16, Kerry was 17, living a carefree 80s life in The Shire, south of Sydney. The girls were seen hitchhiking on the Princes Highway, but by the weekend, they were gone. No calls. No sightings. Years later, the families uncovered police oversights, lost documents, and a cold case that never should’ve gone cold.
Journalist and podcast host Kate Kachor is retracing Elaine’s final days, hoping someone out there finally comes forward.
You can listen to Kate's podcast Out from the Cold: Searching for Elaine, here.
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Guest: Kate Kachor
Host: Claire Murphy
Senior Producer: Tahli Blackman
Group Executive Producer: Ilaria Brophy
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
When a teenager goes missing, a lot of assumptions are made.
This period in our lives is notorious for being when
we strike out as independent beings. We push back on authority,
and we sometimes make risky decisions as our brains, yet
to fully mature, don't grasp the consequences of our actions.
So if a teenager goes missing, there's an assumption that
(00:23):
perhaps this was a conscious choice to run away from
the rules and routines that feel so constricting. But what
if it wasn't a conscious choice. What if the hours
and days that are spent assuming your decision was to
run away are actually the lost hours of an investigation that,
forty years later, still has no answer. That's the story
of Elaine Johnson and carry An Joel. They were just
(00:46):
sixteen and seventeen and living in an area most of
us would probably know as the Shire, a beachside suburbs
south of Sydney. It's the early nineteen eighties and the
pair are surrounded by a large group of friends who
are regularly getting together to party, write horses and motor bikes,
or hang out at the local pinball arcade. There's no
mobile phones, no uber, very little money, for taxis, so
(01:08):
Eline and Kerrey get to where they need to go
however they can. Sometimes it's riding a train or catching
a lift with the mate. But when the train stop
at midnight, sometimes the only way to get home is
to stick out a thumb and hope for someone going
your way to pull over. The name Ivan Malatt hadn't
been broadcast around the country back then. The serial killer's
arrest for kidnapping and killing backpackers he'd picked up hitchhiking
(01:31):
wouldn't happen until nineteen ninety four, Free Lane and Kerry.
This carefree life came with some hardships. Not going home
to mum and dad meant they often would sleep rough
in a park, on a stationary train, or bunking with friends.
So when two young girls whose lives are spent hitch
hiking and dossing down wherever they can find a place,
go missing, what assumptions would you make? I'm Claire Murphy
(01:55):
and This is True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the
world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who
know the most about them. The people left behind after
Elaine and Cary's disappearance are still searching despite the now,
forty five years since the pair were last seen, Elaine's
sisters continue to clock every face they see in the
(02:17):
hopes that one day it will be hers. But as
they continue to gather all the information they can about
Elaine's final days and weeks, they discover more and more
about not just her movements and decisions, that the world
she was existing in was also a place where predators lived.
The police didn't follow up on leeds, and in some cases,
(02:37):
documentation has simply vanished, just like the girls had. Kate
Ketcher is the host of Out from the Cold, searching
for Elaine. She's been putting together the pieces of Elaine
Johnson's life, hoping that someone out there can bring them
the key to locating the teenager who still lives on
in the hearts and minds of her two little sisters.
Desperate for answers, she joins us, Now, Kate, thank you
(03:01):
so much for taking a bit of time out of
your day to have a chat with us. Let's get
started with discovering who these two young girls were at
the time that they disappeared. Who was Elaine Johnson, What
was her life like at the time before she went missing?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Elaine's life before she went missing was actually quite sort
of that typical tour point Australian you know, teenage life,
you know, growing up by the sea side. So she
was originally from the UK and she emigrated with her
family when she was about five, and the family settled
in Cronulla, the southern suburb of Sydney or the Shire
(03:39):
as a lot of Ozzie's would know it as, and
she did sort of you know, typical teenage things. Hung
out with friends, went to school, went to the beach.
Her family sort of knew her as in a bit
of a wildflower. She was a hippie. She wore flower pants,
she's lemon to sort of you know, like lots of
(04:00):
Ozzie kids do, to lighten her already blonde hair, and
just skateboard, just sort of everyday beachside life. I think
you could probably summon others.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
And what about Carrie Anne Joel who was.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
She carry and Joel? So Elaine was sixteen at the
time that she disappeared, and carry An Joel was seventeen,
so there was a slight age gap between the two friends.
Carrie lived in Carrying Bar, so not too far from
where Elaine lived in Kernel and she was a little
bit more of a leader, I'd say, in terms of
(04:37):
what I've been told from friends. You know, she didn't
suffer fools. She had a strong personality and I suppose
she lived by her own rules, which sounds a bit funny,
I suppose when you're a young teenager. But you know,
she just knew what she wanted and probably pushed the boundaries.
But she also, from what I've been told, was a
(04:57):
very loyal friend.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
These two have become friends and they spend quite a
bit of time hanging out together, and they've got quite
a wide range of friends in and around the area
of the shire where they live. What kind of things
were they into, what were they doing together and what
was their day to day life looking like it then.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
As far as we're aware, and what I mean by
that is what their friends and family or Elane's family
have shared. Into riding bikes, Kerry was described as a
tomboy by some of her friends. So we would ride
motocross bikes and go to the beach. Kerry had an
interest in the motocross scene. Her brother, elder brother at
(05:40):
the time, was a motocross rider and so they would
travel around the shire on weekends taking their motocross bikes
along the beach, the sand dunes and then go to
races up the North coast.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
So with the information that you've gathered from those people
that you mentioned, so family and friends of Elaine and Carrie,
what do we know about their weeks leading up to
their disappearance in early nineteen eighty.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah. Absolutely, what we know is on the police records
of today, the girls are listed as disappearing on the
first of February nineteen eighty. We don't know the exact
details of exactly when they disappeared. It seems to vary
depending on speaking to friends of the time and the family.
(06:31):
But Elaine's family reported her missing in February nineteen eighty
and Carrie's family reported her missing in February nineteen eighty.
As listeners will find from the podcast, the dates don't
match up in terms of what is in the official
files and whether there are official files.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
And you mentioned that because in your investigations you've found
that the family have also found that some of the
original documentation that would have been taken at the time
of the girls being reported missing has vanished.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yeah, as far as we're aware, yes, that is the case,
particularly for Elane back in the nineteen eighties, it doesn't
appear to have been an official missing person's file for her.
Kerry's official file is dated February nineteen eighty one. Whether
or not that's human error, we're not sure, but both
families have stated that they did report the girls missing
(07:32):
in February nineteen eighty one.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Has there been an explanation for that?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Is it?
Speaker 1 (07:36):
I mean, you've mentioned some human error, But obviously in
the time from the nineteen eighties to now, there are
mergers of police stations, there's the digitization of a lot
of these records. I mean, they're not the only case
that we know of where records have gone missing in
between these times. Do you think it was more likely
through your investigations that these were cases that were never
(07:58):
truly documented correctly in the first place, or was it
a case of they probably got caught up in a
lot of admin that's happened between then and now.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
From what we sort of gauged, it was more a
case that Elaine and Kerry were treated as runaways, and
so the suggestion is that, oh, well, you know they're
going away for a couple of days, they'll be back
and is that right? No, if someone's reported missing, you
should at least have a file that says they were
reported missing on this particular day and then you know, found.
(08:30):
So I think it's a difficult question to answer because
as far as the family are aware, for Elaine, she
was treated as a runaway. As far also as they're aware,
there is no file for her. There is a file now,
but back then the crucial time, there wasn't one.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Does that then also play into the fact that witnesses
at that time were not spoken to. In the podcast,
it mentions that some of these witnesses, friends and people
who were around at the time went until until some
three decades later.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah, that's absolutely right. Twenty fifteen is when the friends
of Elaine's were spoken to, as in police sought statements
from friends. So imagine, you know, imagine your friend disappears
in nineteen eighty and three decades later you're asked, oh,
can you tell us what you remember from that time.
(09:25):
It's an incredible amount of time and it's just a
small part of Elaine's story, and particularly Elaine's sisters Helen
and Wendy's story trying to search for her, which is
the podcast focuses on their forty five year search for
their sister.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Well, can we look at the circumstances leading up to
the girl's disappearance. I understand that Elaine's family had gone
away and Elaine was supposed to go with them. She
doesn't turn up. So the family goes away for a
couple of weeks camping, but return home early to discover
that Elaine's been using the house not just for sleeping in.
What do they discover and what then leads to the
(10:04):
family having a falling out.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah, that's absolutely right. So in December nineteen seventy nine,
the family go on what would have been their first
family camping holiday together and as far as we've been told,
Elane was at home at the time and she was
at a friend's place. The family went away for three
weeks to a month over that Christmas break, so it
was just after Christmas and the weather changed. But also
(10:28):
the parents were they were concerned as much as you're
probably a bit frustrated that you know your teenager has
decided to know potentially rebel before going on a trip.
It would be in the back if your mind of like, well,
what's happening? So They're headed home early and by all
accounts sort of interrupted. We classed as a house party,
(10:52):
but it seems like it was more like, you know,
teenagers were there for a couple of weeks. So the
families returned home to sort of every bed in the
house being slept in, empty alcohol bottles, in tea chests.
In the house. Someone's car had been driven into the front.
It was a fibro rental, so had been driven into
(11:13):
the front of the home. So obviously a massive shock
for you know, particularly Elaine's parents to arrive home. As
I just mentioned, you know, it was a rental property,
so imagine coming home and seeing an absolute mess and
you know that you're going to have to clean that
up and the potential costs and you might even get evicted.
So that's you know, a lot of emotions are running
(11:35):
high at that point, and Elaine was home at the time,
and her parents had a you know, sort of like
a talking to her, I guess you could say, really
sort of saying, you know, shape up or ship out,
and at the heat of the moment, she decided to leave.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Do we know where she left to?
Speaker 2 (11:55):
We do, So she left to stay with different people.
We've been told, and her father and her brother did
go and collect her from someone else's house and brought
her back home, but then she headed off again. And
it is for some family members they believe the last
time that they can clearly remember seeing Elaine was after
(12:18):
the camping trip in January nineteen eighty at the house
Elene's sisters, Helen and Wendy. You know, Helen was twelve
going on thirteen, when he was fourteen going on fifteen.
They're also at the age where they're not you know,
your sister goes out to on weekends, stays at friends' houses,
(12:38):
the nuances of your sister being known as being missing
or not coming home. It doesn't sort of click at
that point. You've sort of used to her coming and going,
and then the goings last longer, and then that's when
the questions start being asked.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
So a lot of their time at this stage is
spent at a Cranulla pinball arcade, so plenty of teenagers
ago there to hang out, shoot some pool, play some games.
But as Elaine's family has since discovered, and what you've
discovered too through your podcast, is that there was a
bit of a darker side to that arcade too. Can
(13:15):
you just talk us through what you've discovered about the
people who were sort of circling around at that time.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yes, a great description of Flashes as it was known
at the time. So it was an arcade that sort
of it seemed all manner of age groups would gather
from within the shire and then sort of neighboring suburbs
and the people that would hang out there, so you know,
that could range from someone age eleven to someone in
their twenties, so it is a very wide group of
(13:44):
individuals in terms of the people that would hang out there.
It's probably best to say what we've found out that
went on there rather than the actual people. So I've
spoken to a woman who we call Amy on the
podcast and claims that when she was around eleven years old,
she went down to Flashes to look for her sister.
(14:06):
It was a Sunday evening and her mother had said, look,
could you go and you know, bring your sister home
it's time for dinner. So Amy went down to Flashes
and asked someone that was Slashes at the time, an
older man who said, oh, you know, I'm looking for
my sister. And the suggestion was that he said oh, look,
I haven't seen her, but come in and wait for her.
(14:28):
She might turn up. And the man gave Amy some
coins to play some video games with. And when the
coins ran out, Amy looked up and the door to
Flashes had been pulled. It was a roller door and
pulled shut, and it was only Amy and this man there.
And Amy recalls a man, you know, walking towards or
(14:50):
heading towards a panel in the wall, and then the
panel had been removed, and she says she remembers there
being a mattress and potentially a blanket the floor, and
the man went into the I suppose it's like a
I don't know if it was a cruel space, but
it wasn't like an official sort of room. And the
man sat on the mattress and tapped the mattress and
(15:12):
sort of indicating, come and sit with me, you know.
And even you know, she's a very insightful woman, but
even as a child, she knew that it wasn't right.
It's something just didn't sit with her right. I don't
believe she said anything to him, but rather just sort
of refused, as in a quiet refusal. And so the
man said, okay, well, I'll take you home. He didn't
(15:34):
take her home, and you know, thankfully she's she's alive
and able to tell her story. But what she claims
happened to her sort of gives an indication of the
type of people that did hang around flashes and around
you know, young women and girls at the time.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Well, last, the thing you've exposed to is that around
the late seventies early eighties, there were quite a few
documented cases of young girls being approached or being sexually
assaulted in and around the Shia. Do you feel like
that's what Elaine and Kerry got mixed up in. Does
(16:15):
it feel like your investigations maybe they were exposed to
some of those people.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Yeah. Absolutely, I think they're definitely exposed to some of
those people. As to whether or not those people were
involved in Elaine and Kerry's disappearance, we can't say, but
definitely there was a lot of very questionable people that
were sort of like orbiting the area in which Elaine
and Carrie were surrounded in. You know, I'm not suggesting
(16:44):
that they were friends with these people, but that you know,
it was a very sort of tight knit community. You
sort of if you're interested in surfing, you hang out
with all the surfers. They were in the area of
Kerry and Elaine. Whether or not they knew exactly what
was going on not say, but they were definitely around
them at the time.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
You're listening to two crime conversations with me, Claire Murphy.
I'm speaking with the host of Out from the Cold
Searching for Elaine Kate Catcher. Up next, Kate tells us
when police actually started to investigate the disappearances of Elaine
and Kerry. You've mentioned that police did treat these two
(17:27):
girls disappearance as runaways, But did they investigate it all
during those three decades up until twenty fifteen where they
started taking witness statements, like was any effort made to
locate the girls in that timeframe.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
From what we can see? I don't believe. So. I've
contacted me Southwest Police. I've been told this is an
open investigation and so they cannot comment as for when
this investigation was opened. I haven't ever been able to
determine and that was so.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
There's also some suggestion that the girls were staying at
one of two caravan parks in the area, or that
they in fact maybe stayed at both. What do we
know about who they were staying with there and could
that potentially be where they went missing from.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
It's a good question. Yes. So there was two caravan
parks in the area that the girls are believed to
have stayed at or at least visited. One visited. One
stayed at the Cronulla Caravan Park, which locals would know
was Janola Caravan Park, and then Warrenora Caravan Park just
down the Warrinora River. We do believe we know who
(18:40):
they were staying with. At this stage, we can't say
too much about that. Well, I can't say too much
about that from what we know. One day early in
nineteen eighty, while Kerrie's mother was at work, Kerrie had
borrowed her car and gone for a joy rise and
she had gone down to She'd driven from caring Bar
where she lived, down to Cronulla where Flashes the arcade
(19:04):
was and sort of you know, turned up beat the horn.
And what we've been told is that a Lane and
a third girl came out of Flashes and jumped in
the car and then all three girls drove around the
shire looking for other friends. Then it came time that
Kerry had to return the car home and she had
(19:25):
a bingle in the car sort of in a bit
of a panic because she was unlicensed. She took her
mother's car home, there was damage to part of the
car and took off, sort of grabbed belongings and the
three girls headed off and as far as we know,
they headed back to Flashes. That's all we know that
they disappeared from Flashes, and some friends have told us
(19:50):
that they had headed north. And when I say headed north,
this goes back to Kerry's sort of hobby of motocross.
So there was a motocross track just on the outskirts
of Newcastle in Jilliby that Kerry and a friend of hers,
not Elane, but another friend that would go and sort
of visit for a couple of days or a couple
(20:11):
of weeks if they needed to just time away from
day to day life. So there is a suggestion that
Elaine and Kerry took off north. Is that to Gilliby,
We're not sure, but we have looked into that side
of things.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
I mean, these girls are getting around, however, they can
borrowing mum's car without permission, catching public transport, but hitchhiking
was a pretty regular part of their transport needs, which
we now know after some pretty terrible incidents, is not
a safe thing to do. But they'd been doing it
(20:49):
for a while, and there is some suggestion that perhaps
they got into a car at Flashes at the arcade
right before they went missing, and that car might have
a pretty similar description to when you mentioned Amy who
got locked into the arcade that time and wasn't taken home.
(21:10):
She was taken in a car that sounds very similar
to this one.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Well, I do talk about that there is a white car,
a familiar white car that seems to have been in
the Cronulla area. People recognized it. I've spoken with someone
who remembers being sort of chased as a young girl
through the backstreets of Cronulla and she got away the
(21:35):
only way that she She sort of says, look, I
was very good at running, so she just ran. She
ran across an oval. She did whatever she could to
get away from this car. I've since shown a photo
of a car that could be the car to her
and she says it does look very very similar, similar
markings in how she described it. And I think that's
(21:56):
a lot of what we've uncovered. And when I say
we Elene's sister, Helen has just been so instrumental in
this investigation. It's been her forty five years of her
life that she has searched for her sister. So that's
why I say a wee because I feel like, you know,
it's her story that I'm privileged enough to be able
(22:17):
to share. So in terms of the white car, it
could be. But then when you think about it, there
are so many white cars back then as well. We
don't think it's the same car, but we also can't
say definitively it wasn't. And I think that's probably part
of the investigation. You know, there are so many twists
and turns that I might sound like I'm not giving
(22:39):
away as much as I could, but that's sort of
exactly what we're facing. That's just the reality of the investigation.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
You mentioned Helen there in her undying mission to find
her sister, and she has mentioned that by the time
a coronial inquest is done in twenty seve sixteen, I
believe that even then she's discovering information about her sister's
movements that she was not privy to. I mean, obviously,
(23:08):
when you went missing, as you mentioned, she was very young,
so not in a position to really search for her herself.
And then, you know, when you're a kid, you often
don't get told all the details of things by the
adults around you. So she's had to discover these things
as she's grown up. But it took a coronial inquest
for her to discover some things, some information about her
sister's disappearance or circumstances around it. How frustrating is it
(23:32):
for her dealing with this for her entire life and
constantly feeling like she can't get anywhere Because during your
podcast you quite often say we've reached out, we haven't
heard back, We've tried to speak to this person, they
haven't been contactable. Like it's such a frustrating process searching
for someone who's been missing for so long, and people
(23:53):
who might be worried that they'll get in trouble, or
police officers who don't want to discuss a case like
this must be the most frustrating thing for her.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
The thing about Helen is she just keeps going, So
I think it's you know, yeah, she's hit a lot
of brick walls in her search, but it doesn't stop
her searching. And the frustration is that yes, some people
might not speak, but I think it's important to remember
that for a lot of people, even though forty five
(24:26):
years has passed, it's still so heartbreaking for them. If
you've sort of think about it, For a fourteen year old,
you're sort of just coming to learn about yourself. You're
finishing back then, you know, finishing high school. Life is
looking so bright, or life is looking however, it's looking
(24:46):
for that particular person and to have someone that you know,
that you've probably considered to be right next to you,
a confident just suddenly disappearing and not knowing you know.
In the podcast, one friend Angela says, how can two
girls just vanish? And I think that's what it really
(25:06):
feels like for Elaine's family, for her sisters, How did
this happen? It's almost like there's so many shaking your
head moments that it almost spurs them on to get
more answers. And Helen has managed to find out more
information over the years, just with sheer determination. It's been incredible.
(25:31):
She's such an incredible person. And I don't say that lightly.
I know, I you know, have a podcast about her sister,
but she's truly such an incredible person, the unwaving way
that she has gone about trying to find Elaine. You know,
she's got her own family, she's got a business. You know,
if new information comes in, right, let's go like that
(25:52):
is just her approach to it.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
I think what I find even more heartbreaking is that
for a lot of people who have missing friends or
family members, there's always that tie rope that they're walking
between are they still alive or are they not? And
for Helen and her sister Wendy, they still don't really
have that, whether they have it official or not. They
(26:25):
aren't even in a position to kind of say, we
presume that Elaine is no longer with us, because there
have been sightings and leads that they have followed up
since her disappearance, and ones that they have actually gone
door knocking asking questions in neighborhoods around Newcastle, because there
was at one stage this idea that Elaine had maybe
(26:45):
changed her name to Crystal and maybe was working as
a sex worker potentially at one stage, have they ever
been able to definitively find out whether that was Elaine
or not.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
It must be, you know, just sort of hearing this
the information come through, so Wendy had a friend over
one day to her house. And you know, this was
years and years after Elaine had had been reported missing,
and the family knew that, you know, she had essentially
officially you know, disappeared or was officially missing. And a
(27:17):
friend came over to Wendy's house and they were just
you know, in the lound room talking and this friend
turned and said, oh, I know her, you know, pointing
to a photo of Elaine that was framed in Wendy's
lounge room. It's like, oh, yeah, you know, that's Crystal.
And when you said, oh, no, you know, essentially you're mistaken.
That's my sister Elaine. What's quite you know, sort of
(27:40):
like really grabs you about this is the photo was
from the nineteen seventies. It's the only photo of the
family have of Elaine from from her school days. And
it's her school photo. So it's this beautiful photo of
a bright eyed fifteen, sixteen year old in her school uniform.
And this is what the friend had determined was, Oh,
(28:02):
I know her, it's Crystal. I can't say how this
particular friend sort of came to believe that Elaine is Crystal,
but it sent the family. Obviously the family know it
sent them to the Newcastle brothel district, and what they
wanted to do and why they went there is that
(28:23):
they wanted to find out the information that this friend
had given them if it was true, if there was
any truth to it. So they made a plan Wendy,
Helen and Helen's husband Joe, to one Saturday night hit
up the brothel district of Newcastle and just go daughter door.
(28:45):
Very sadly, the Johnson's family had lost a child when
he was twenty one. So Helen and Wendy went into
the brothels with the idea of that they're coming to
her that her brother had died. And so they went
in and they showed a photo of Elaine, the same
(29:07):
photo that the friend had identified as Crystal. And from
what Helene has told me, people within the brothel said, oh, yes, Elaine.
They used her name as Elaine and then referred to
her as Crystal. I should state they used the name
Elaine for this person. I just wanted to be clear
because there could well have been a person called Elaine,
(29:29):
you know what a coincidence, but just to just to
make that clear. And so with that information, they thought Okay,
well right, let's go to the next one, and a
similar thing had happened, and they were told that Crystal
was on a six week run. She wasn't currently there
and that was the information that they had. So Elaine's
(29:52):
family sort of left and thought, okay, well, maybe there's
something to the friend's comments. Nothing came of it, in
the sense no one came forward to say that they
were Elaine. Helen did get a phone call from someone
who said, Hello, I'm Crystal. I wish I could be
your sister, but I'm not. But there were details in
(30:12):
the phone call that Helen's told me that just doesn't
add up. She thinks it might have been a decoy
to use her words. But then later Helen did have
a woman come to her work and tell her keep looking.
So to your point, it's having these sort of sightings
and the information coming forward, it does make you think, well,
(30:38):
she is still alive. We have to keep going.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Helen and Wendy have also asked the New South Wales
government to put her reward up for information in regards
to both Elaine and Carrie's disappearance that's been denied. Has
there ever been an explanation as to why they won't
put forward or award for this case.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
It's definitely something that has frustrated the family in terms
of not having an official reward being issued just that information,
in terms of you know, the crystal information coming forward.
It makes so much sense that imagine if there was
a reward and someone came forward and the case was solved.
(31:23):
I mean, isn't that a benefit? Isn't that a benefit?
In terms of why the New South Wales Police have
denied the request for a reward, and there seems to
be a lot of sort of bureaucracy. It doesn't appear
to be an easy yes no situation. Obviously, it comes
across as very yes no when you're told no, we're
(31:45):
not going to provide the reward. But I think it
really has the family are really sort of questioning, we
don't understand why, you know, there seems to be so
many financial rewards for so many other cases. They haven't
been able to and I haven't been able to determine
fully why the reward keeps being refused.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
How do you feel being a part of their story now?
And we've seen this happen quite a few times now
where people like you and I are having these discussions.
Launch a podcast investigating somebody missing or a crime, and
there can be results from that. We've seen people go
to jail off the back of true crime podcasts. How
(32:29):
do you feel being a part of that story, and
is your hope at the end of this road that
you do give that family some closure? And he prepared
for the fact that they might not get.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
It going into this podcast. I was pretty open about
the fact that I never expected or gave any assurances
that I would solve it. I suppose nothing against anyone
else who's put together a podcast of this nature. You know,
it's a very long process. And since releasing the episodes,
(32:59):
more people have come forward and we have new information,
very very credible and strong information, which is really great.
And I think, you know, I'm coming in as somebody
that doesn't have a personal connection to Elaine. I have
a personal connection to Helen and Wendy now because of
knowing them for you know, the last almost three years.
(33:20):
But it's really about them, you know, I'm really second
to this. I'm just in a very fortunate position to
be able to help get their story, much of it
very very untold out to more people. And that's What
they really want is people to come forward and to
hear you know. It's funny even the smallest bit of
(33:43):
information makes such a huge difference, So I guess you
know on behalf of Helen and Wendy. Please, if you
do know something, reach out, even anonymously. They just really
want to know what happened to their sister.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Thank you to Kate for helping us tell Elaine and
Kerry's stories today. You can find Kate's podcast Out from
the Cold Searching for Elaine at the link in our
show notes. If you do have information that may assist
police to locate Elaine and Kerry, please call crime Stoppers
on one eight hundred triple three, triple zero, or get
in touch with us directly via email at true Crime
at mammamea dot com dot au. If you want to
(34:23):
see images from this story, head to our Instagram page
at True Crime Conversations. True Crime Conversations is hosted by
me Claire Murphy. Our senior producer is Tali Blackman, The
group executive producer is a Laria Brophy, and there's been
audio design by Tina Madloff. Thanks so much for listening.
I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation.
(34:47):
We want to hear from our true crime fans. Tell
us what kind of content you love, what you'd like
to hear more of, and a bit about your listening habits.
You'll final link to the show notes to take our
quick five minute survey, and you'll have the chance to
win a one thousand dollar gift card just for participating.
True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and
waters that this podcast was recorded on
When a teenager goes missing, a lot of assumptions are made.
This period in our lives is notorious for being when
we strike out as independent beings. We push back on authority,
and we sometimes make risky decisions as our brains, yet
to fully mature, don't grasp the consequences of our actions.
So if a teenager goes missing, there's an assumption that
(00:23):
perhaps this was a conscious choice to run away from
the rules and routines that feel so constricting. But what
if it wasn't a conscious choice. What if the hours
and days that are spent assuming your decision was to
run away are actually the lost hours of an investigation that,
forty years later, still has no answer. That's the story
of Elaine Johnson and carry An Joel. They were just
(00:46):
sixteen and seventeen and living in an area most of
us would probably know as the Shire, a beachside suburbs
south of Sydney. It's the early nineteen eighties and the
pair are surrounded by a large group of friends who
are regularly getting together to party, write horses and motor bikes,
or hang out at the local pinball arcade. There's no
mobile phones, no uber, very little money, for taxis, so
(01:08):
Eline and Kerrey get to where they need to go
however they can. Sometimes it's riding a train or catching
a lift with the mate. But when the train stop
at midnight, sometimes the only way to get home is
to stick out a thumb and hope for someone going
your way to pull over. The name Ivan Malatt hadn't
been broadcast around the country back then. The serial killer's
arrest for kidnapping and killing backpackers he'd picked up hitchhiking
(01:31):
wouldn't happen until nineteen ninety four, Free Lane and Kerry.
This carefree life came with some hardships. Not going home
to mum and dad meant they often would sleep rough
in a park, on a stationary train, or bunking with friends.
So when two young girls whose lives are spent hitch
hiking and dossing down wherever they can find a place,
go missing, what assumptions would you make? I'm Claire Murphy
(01:55):
and This is True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the
world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who
know the most about them. The people left behind after
Elaine and Cary's disappearance are still searching despite the now,
forty five years since the pair were last seen, Elaine's
sisters continue to clock every face they see in the
(02:17):
hopes that one day it will be hers. But as
they continue to gather all the information they can about
Elaine's final days and weeks, they discover more and more
about not just her movements and decisions, that the world
she was existing in was also a place where predators lived.
The police didn't follow up on leeds, and in some cases,
(02:37):
documentation has simply vanished, just like the girls had. Kate
Ketcher is the host of Out from the Cold, searching
for Elaine. She's been putting together the pieces of Elaine
Johnson's life, hoping that someone out there can bring them
the key to locating the teenager who still lives on
in the hearts and minds of her two little sisters.
Desperate for answers, she joins us, Now, Kate, thank you
(03:01):
so much for taking a bit of time out of
your day to have a chat with us. Let's get
started with discovering who these two young girls were at
the time that they disappeared. Who was Elaine Johnson, What
was her life like at the time before she went missing?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Elaine's life before she went missing was actually quite sort
of that typical tour point Australian you know, teenage life,
you know, growing up by the sea side. So she
was originally from the UK and she emigrated with her
family when she was about five, and the family settled
in Cronulla, the southern suburb of Sydney or the Shire
(03:39):
as a lot of Ozzie's would know it as, and
she did sort of you know, typical teenage things. Hung
out with friends, went to school, went to the beach.
Her family sort of knew her as in a bit
of a wildflower. She was a hippie. She wore flower pants,
she's lemon to sort of you know, like lots of
(04:00):
Ozzie kids do, to lighten her already blonde hair, and
just skateboard, just sort of everyday beachside life. I think
you could probably summon others.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
And what about Carrie Anne Joel who was.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
She carry and Joel? So Elaine was sixteen at the
time that she disappeared, and carry An Joel was seventeen,
so there was a slight age gap between the two friends.
Carrie lived in Carrying Bar, so not too far from
where Elaine lived in Kernel and she was a little
bit more of a leader, I'd say, in terms of
(04:37):
what I've been told from friends. You know, she didn't
suffer fools. She had a strong personality and I suppose
she lived by her own rules, which sounds a bit funny,
I suppose when you're a young teenager. But you know,
she just knew what she wanted and probably pushed the boundaries.
But she also, from what I've been told, was a
(04:57):
very loyal friend.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
These two have become friends and they spend quite a
bit of time hanging out together, and they've got quite
a wide range of friends in and around the area
of the shire where they live. What kind of things
were they into, what were they doing together and what
was their day to day life looking like it then.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
As far as we're aware, and what I mean by
that is what their friends and family or Elane's family
have shared. Into riding bikes, Kerry was described as a
tomboy by some of her friends. So we would ride
motocross bikes and go to the beach. Kerry had an
interest in the motocross scene. Her brother, elder brother at
(05:40):
the time, was a motocross rider and so they would
travel around the shire on weekends taking their motocross bikes
along the beach, the sand dunes and then go to
races up the North coast.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
So with the information that you've gathered from those people
that you mentioned, so family and friends of Elaine and Carrie,
what do we know about their weeks leading up to
their disappearance in early nineteen eighty.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah. Absolutely, what we know is on the police records
of today, the girls are listed as disappearing on the
first of February nineteen eighty. We don't know the exact
details of exactly when they disappeared. It seems to vary
depending on speaking to friends of the time and the family.
(06:31):
But Elaine's family reported her missing in February nineteen eighty
and Carrie's family reported her missing in February nineteen eighty.
As listeners will find from the podcast, the dates don't
match up in terms of what is in the official
files and whether there are official files.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
And you mentioned that because in your investigations you've found
that the family have also found that some of the
original documentation that would have been taken at the time
of the girls being reported missing has vanished.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yeah, as far as we're aware, yes, that is the case,
particularly for Elane back in the nineteen eighties, it doesn't
appear to have been an official missing person's file for her.
Kerry's official file is dated February nineteen eighty one. Whether
or not that's human error, we're not sure, but both
families have stated that they did report the girls missing
(07:32):
in February nineteen eighty one.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Has there been an explanation for that?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Is it?
Speaker 1 (07:36):
I mean, you've mentioned some human error, But obviously in
the time from the nineteen eighties to now, there are
mergers of police stations, there's the digitization of a lot
of these records. I mean, they're not the only case
that we know of where records have gone missing in
between these times. Do you think it was more likely
through your investigations that these were cases that were never
(07:58):
truly documented correctly in the first place, or was it
a case of they probably got caught up in a
lot of admin that's happened between then and now.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
From what we sort of gauged, it was more a
case that Elaine and Kerry were treated as runaways, and
so the suggestion is that, oh, well, you know they're
going away for a couple of days, they'll be back
and is that right? No, if someone's reported missing, you
should at least have a file that says they were
reported missing on this particular day and then you know, found.
(08:30):
So I think it's a difficult question to answer because
as far as the family are aware, for Elaine, she
was treated as a runaway. As far also as they're aware,
there is no file for her. There is a file now,
but back then the crucial time, there wasn't one.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Does that then also play into the fact that witnesses
at that time were not spoken to. In the podcast,
it mentions that some of these witnesses, friends and people
who were around at the time went until until some
three decades later.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah, that's absolutely right. Twenty fifteen is when the friends
of Elaine's were spoken to, as in police sought statements
from friends. So imagine, you know, imagine your friend disappears
in nineteen eighty and three decades later you're asked, oh,
can you tell us what you remember from that time.
(09:25):
It's an incredible amount of time and it's just a
small part of Elaine's story, and particularly Elaine's sisters Helen
and Wendy's story trying to search for her, which is
the podcast focuses on their forty five year search for
their sister.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Well, can we look at the circumstances leading up to
the girl's disappearance. I understand that Elaine's family had gone
away and Elaine was supposed to go with them. She
doesn't turn up. So the family goes away for a
couple of weeks camping, but return home early to discover
that Elaine's been using the house not just for sleeping in.
What do they discover and what then leads to the
(10:04):
family having a falling out.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah, that's absolutely right. So in December nineteen seventy nine,
the family go on what would have been their first
family camping holiday together and as far as we've been told,
Elane was at home at the time and she was
at a friend's place. The family went away for three
weeks to a month over that Christmas break, so it
was just after Christmas and the weather changed. But also
(10:28):
the parents were they were concerned as much as you're
probably a bit frustrated that you know your teenager has
decided to know potentially rebel before going on a trip.
It would be in the back if your mind of like, well,
what's happening? So They're headed home early and by all
accounts sort of interrupted. We classed as a house party,
(10:52):
but it seems like it was more like, you know,
teenagers were there for a couple of weeks. So the
families returned home to sort of every bed in the
house being slept in, empty alcohol bottles, in tea chests.
In the house. Someone's car had been driven into the front.
It was a fibro rental, so had been driven into
(11:13):
the front of the home. So obviously a massive shock
for you know, particularly Elaine's parents to arrive home. As
I just mentioned, you know, it was a rental property,
so imagine coming home and seeing an absolute mess and
you know that you're going to have to clean that
up and the potential costs and you might even get evicted.
So that's you know, a lot of emotions are running
(11:35):
high at that point, and Elaine was home at the time,
and her parents had a you know, sort of like
a talking to her, I guess you could say, really
sort of saying, you know, shape up or ship out,
and at the heat of the moment, she decided to leave.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Do we know where she left to?
Speaker 2 (11:55):
We do, So she left to stay with different people.
We've been told, and her father and her brother did
go and collect her from someone else's house and brought
her back home, but then she headed off again. And
it is for some family members they believe the last
time that they can clearly remember seeing Elaine was after
(12:18):
the camping trip in January nineteen eighty at the house
Elene's sisters, Helen and Wendy. You know, Helen was twelve
going on thirteen, when he was fourteen going on fifteen.
They're also at the age where they're not you know,
your sister goes out to on weekends, stays at friends' houses,
(12:38):
the nuances of your sister being known as being missing
or not coming home. It doesn't sort of click at
that point. You've sort of used to her coming and going,
and then the goings last longer, and then that's when
the questions start being asked.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
So a lot of their time at this stage is
spent at a Cranulla pinball arcade, so plenty of teenagers
ago there to hang out, shoot some pool, play some games.
But as Elaine's family has since discovered, and what you've
discovered too through your podcast, is that there was a
bit of a darker side to that arcade too. Can
(13:15):
you just talk us through what you've discovered about the
people who were sort of circling around at that time.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yes, a great description of Flashes as it was known
at the time. So it was an arcade that sort
of it seemed all manner of age groups would gather
from within the shire and then sort of neighboring suburbs
and the people that would hang out there, so you know,
that could range from someone age eleven to someone in
their twenties, so it is a very wide group of
(13:44):
individuals in terms of the people that would hang out there.
It's probably best to say what we've found out that
went on there rather than the actual people. So I've
spoken to a woman who we call Amy on the
podcast and claims that when she was around eleven years old,
she went down to Flashes to look for her sister.
(14:06):
It was a Sunday evening and her mother had said, look,
could you go and you know, bring your sister home
it's time for dinner. So Amy went down to Flashes
and asked someone that was Slashes at the time, an
older man who said, oh, you know, I'm looking for
my sister. And the suggestion was that he said oh, look,
I haven't seen her, but come in and wait for her.
(14:28):
She might turn up. And the man gave Amy some
coins to play some video games with. And when the
coins ran out, Amy looked up and the door to
Flashes had been pulled. It was a roller door and
pulled shut, and it was only Amy and this man there.
And Amy recalls a man, you know, walking towards or
(14:50):
heading towards a panel in the wall, and then the
panel had been removed, and she says she remembers there
being a mattress and potentially a blanket the floor, and
the man went into the I suppose it's like a
I don't know if it was a cruel space, but
it wasn't like an official sort of room. And the
man sat on the mattress and tapped the mattress and
(15:12):
sort of indicating, come and sit with me, you know.
And even you know, she's a very insightful woman, but
even as a child, she knew that it wasn't right.
It's something just didn't sit with her right. I don't
believe she said anything to him, but rather just sort
of refused, as in a quiet refusal. And so the
man said, okay, well, I'll take you home. He didn't
(15:34):
take her home, and you know, thankfully she's she's alive
and able to tell her story. But what she claims
happened to her sort of gives an indication of the
type of people that did hang around flashes and around
you know, young women and girls at the time.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Well, last, the thing you've exposed to is that around
the late seventies early eighties, there were quite a few
documented cases of young girls being approached or being sexually
assaulted in and around the Shia. Do you feel like
that's what Elaine and Kerry got mixed up in. Does
(16:15):
it feel like your investigations maybe they were exposed to
some of those people.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Yeah. Absolutely, I think they're definitely exposed to some of
those people. As to whether or not those people were
involved in Elaine and Kerry's disappearance, we can't say, but
definitely there was a lot of very questionable people that
were sort of like orbiting the area in which Elaine
and Carrie were surrounded in. You know, I'm not suggesting
(16:44):
that they were friends with these people, but that you know,
it was a very sort of tight knit community. You
sort of if you're interested in surfing, you hang out
with all the surfers. They were in the area of
Kerry and Elaine. Whether or not they knew exactly what
was going on not say, but they were definitely around
them at the time.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
You're listening to two crime conversations with me, Claire Murphy.
I'm speaking with the host of Out from the Cold
Searching for Elaine Kate Catcher. Up next, Kate tells us
when police actually started to investigate the disappearances of Elaine
and Kerry. You've mentioned that police did treat these two
(17:27):
girls disappearance as runaways, But did they investigate it all
during those three decades up until twenty fifteen where they
started taking witness statements, like was any effort made to
locate the girls in that timeframe.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
From what we can see? I don't believe. So. I've
contacted me Southwest Police. I've been told this is an
open investigation and so they cannot comment as for when
this investigation was opened. I haven't ever been able to
determine and that was so.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
There's also some suggestion that the girls were staying at
one of two caravan parks in the area, or that
they in fact maybe stayed at both. What do we
know about who they were staying with there and could
that potentially be where they went missing from.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
It's a good question. Yes. So there was two caravan
parks in the area that the girls are believed to
have stayed at or at least visited. One visited. One
stayed at the Cronulla Caravan Park, which locals would know
was Janola Caravan Park, and then Warrenora Caravan Park just
down the Warrinora River. We do believe we know who
(18:40):
they were staying with. At this stage, we can't say
too much about that. Well, I can't say too much
about that from what we know. One day early in
nineteen eighty, while Kerrie's mother was at work, Kerrie had
borrowed her car and gone for a joy rise and
she had gone down to She'd driven from caring Bar
where she lived, down to Cronulla where Flashes the arcade
(19:04):
was and sort of you know, turned up beat the horn.
And what we've been told is that a Lane and
a third girl came out of Flashes and jumped in
the car and then all three girls drove around the
shire looking for other friends. Then it came time that
Kerry had to return the car home and she had
(19:25):
a bingle in the car sort of in a bit
of a panic because she was unlicensed. She took her
mother's car home, there was damage to part of the
car and took off, sort of grabbed belongings and the
three girls headed off and as far as we know,
they headed back to Flashes. That's all we know that
they disappeared from Flashes, and some friends have told us
(19:50):
that they had headed north. And when I say headed north,
this goes back to Kerry's sort of hobby of motocross.
So there was a motocross track just on the outskirts
of Newcastle in Jilliby that Kerry and a friend of hers,
not Elane, but another friend that would go and sort
of visit for a couple of days or a couple
(20:11):
of weeks if they needed to just time away from
day to day life. So there is a suggestion that
Elaine and Kerry took off north. Is that to Gilliby,
We're not sure, but we have looked into that side
of things.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
I mean, these girls are getting around, however, they can
borrowing mum's car without permission, catching public transport, but hitchhiking
was a pretty regular part of their transport needs, which
we now know after some pretty terrible incidents, is not
a safe thing to do. But they'd been doing it
(20:49):
for a while, and there is some suggestion that perhaps
they got into a car at Flashes at the arcade
right before they went missing, and that car might have
a pretty similar description to when you mentioned Amy who
got locked into the arcade that time and wasn't taken home.
(21:10):
She was taken in a car that sounds very similar
to this one.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Well, I do talk about that there is a white car,
a familiar white car that seems to have been in
the Cronulla area. People recognized it. I've spoken with someone
who remembers being sort of chased as a young girl
through the backstreets of Cronulla and she got away the
(21:35):
only way that she She sort of says, look, I
was very good at running, so she just ran. She
ran across an oval. She did whatever she could to
get away from this car. I've since shown a photo
of a car that could be the car to her
and she says it does look very very similar, similar
markings in how she described it. And I think that's
(21:56):
a lot of what we've uncovered. And when I say
we Elene's sister, Helen has just been so instrumental in
this investigation. It's been her forty five years of her
life that she has searched for her sister. So that's
why I say a wee because I feel like, you know,
it's her story that I'm privileged enough to be able
(22:17):
to share. So in terms of the white car, it
could be. But then when you think about it, there
are so many white cars back then as well. We
don't think it's the same car, but we also can't
say definitively it wasn't. And I think that's probably part
of the investigation. You know, there are so many twists
and turns that I might sound like I'm not giving
(22:39):
away as much as I could, but that's sort of
exactly what we're facing. That's just the reality of the investigation.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
You mentioned Helen there in her undying mission to find
her sister, and she has mentioned that by the time
a coronial inquest is done in twenty seve sixteen, I
believe that even then she's discovering information about her sister's
movements that she was not privy to. I mean, obviously,
(23:08):
when you went missing, as you mentioned, she was very young,
so not in a position to really search for her herself.
And then, you know, when you're a kid, you often
don't get told all the details of things by the
adults around you. So she's had to discover these things
as she's grown up. But it took a coronial inquest
for her to discover some things, some information about her
sister's disappearance or circumstances around it. How frustrating is it
(23:32):
for her dealing with this for her entire life and
constantly feeling like she can't get anywhere Because during your
podcast you quite often say we've reached out, we haven't
heard back, We've tried to speak to this person, they
haven't been contactable. Like it's such a frustrating process searching
for someone who's been missing for so long, and people
(23:53):
who might be worried that they'll get in trouble, or
police officers who don't want to discuss a case like
this must be the most frustrating thing for her.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
The thing about Helen is she just keeps going, So
I think it's you know, yeah, she's hit a lot
of brick walls in her search, but it doesn't stop
her searching. And the frustration is that yes, some people
might not speak, but I think it's important to remember
that for a lot of people, even though forty five
(24:26):
years has passed, it's still so heartbreaking for them. If
you've sort of think about it, For a fourteen year old,
you're sort of just coming to learn about yourself. You're
finishing back then, you know, finishing high school. Life is
looking so bright, or life is looking however, it's looking
(24:46):
for that particular person and to have someone that you know,
that you've probably considered to be right next to you,
a confident just suddenly disappearing and not knowing you know.
In the podcast, one friend Angela says, how can two
girls just vanish? And I think that's what it really
(25:06):
feels like for Elaine's family, for her sisters, How did
this happen? It's almost like there's so many shaking your
head moments that it almost spurs them on to get
more answers. And Helen has managed to find out more
information over the years, just with sheer determination. It's been incredible.
(25:31):
She's such an incredible person. And I don't say that lightly.
I know, I you know, have a podcast about her sister,
but she's truly such an incredible person, the unwaving way
that she has gone about trying to find Elaine. You know,
she's got her own family, she's got a business. You know,
if new information comes in, right, let's go like that
(25:52):
is just her approach to it.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
I think what I find even more heartbreaking is that
for a lot of people who have missing friends or
family members, there's always that tie rope that they're walking
between are they still alive or are they not? And
for Helen and her sister Wendy, they still don't really
have that, whether they have it official or not. They
(26:25):
aren't even in a position to kind of say, we
presume that Elaine is no longer with us, because there
have been sightings and leads that they have followed up
since her disappearance, and ones that they have actually gone
door knocking asking questions in neighborhoods around Newcastle, because there
was at one stage this idea that Elaine had maybe
(26:45):
changed her name to Crystal and maybe was working as
a sex worker potentially at one stage, have they ever
been able to definitively find out whether that was Elaine
or not.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
It must be, you know, just sort of hearing this
the information come through, so Wendy had a friend over
one day to her house. And you know, this was
years and years after Elaine had had been reported missing,
and the family knew that, you know, she had essentially
officially you know, disappeared or was officially missing. And a
(27:17):
friend came over to Wendy's house and they were just
you know, in the lound room talking and this friend
turned and said, oh, I know her, you know, pointing
to a photo of Elaine that was framed in Wendy's
lounge room. It's like, oh, yeah, you know, that's Crystal.
And when you said, oh, no, you know, essentially you're mistaken.
That's my sister Elaine. What's quite you know, sort of
(27:40):
like really grabs you about this is the photo was
from the nineteen seventies. It's the only photo of the
family have of Elaine from from her school days. And
it's her school photo. So it's this beautiful photo of
a bright eyed fifteen, sixteen year old in her school uniform.
And this is what the friend had determined was, Oh,
(28:02):
I know her, it's Crystal. I can't say how this
particular friend sort of came to believe that Elaine is Crystal,
but it sent the family. Obviously the family know it
sent them to the Newcastle brothel district, and what they
wanted to do and why they went there is that
(28:23):
they wanted to find out the information that this friend
had given them if it was true, if there was
any truth to it. So they made a plan Wendy,
Helen and Helen's husband Joe, to one Saturday night hit
up the brothel district of Newcastle and just go daughter door.
(28:45):
Very sadly, the Johnson's family had lost a child when
he was twenty one. So Helen and Wendy went into
the brothels with the idea of that they're coming to
her that her brother had died. And so they went
in and they showed a photo of Elaine, the same
(29:07):
photo that the friend had identified as Crystal. And from
what Helene has told me, people within the brothel said, oh, yes, Elaine.
They used her name as Elaine and then referred to
her as Crystal. I should state they used the name
Elaine for this person. I just wanted to be clear
because there could well have been a person called Elaine,
(29:29):
you know what a coincidence, but just to just to
make that clear. And so with that information, they thought Okay,
well right, let's go to the next one, and a
similar thing had happened, and they were told that Crystal
was on a six week run. She wasn't currently there
and that was the information that they had. So Elaine's
(29:52):
family sort of left and thought, okay, well, maybe there's
something to the friend's comments. Nothing came of it, in
the sense no one came forward to say that they
were Elaine. Helen did get a phone call from someone
who said, Hello, I'm Crystal. I wish I could be
your sister, but I'm not. But there were details in
(30:12):
the phone call that Helen's told me that just doesn't
add up. She thinks it might have been a decoy
to use her words. But then later Helen did have
a woman come to her work and tell her keep looking.
So to your point, it's having these sort of sightings
and the information coming forward, it does make you think, well,
(30:38):
she is still alive. We have to keep going.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Helen and Wendy have also asked the New South Wales
government to put her reward up for information in regards
to both Elaine and Carrie's disappearance that's been denied. Has
there ever been an explanation as to why they won't
put forward or award for this case.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
It's definitely something that has frustrated the family in terms
of not having an official reward being issued just that information,
in terms of you know, the crystal information coming forward.
It makes so much sense that imagine if there was
a reward and someone came forward and the case was solved.
(31:23):
I mean, isn't that a benefit? Isn't that a benefit?
In terms of why the New South Wales Police have
denied the request for a reward, and there seems to
be a lot of sort of bureaucracy. It doesn't appear
to be an easy yes no situation. Obviously, it comes
across as very yes no when you're told no, we're
(31:45):
not going to provide the reward. But I think it
really has the family are really sort of questioning, we
don't understand why, you know, there seems to be so
many financial rewards for so many other cases. They haven't
been able to and I haven't been able to determine
fully why the reward keeps being refused.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
How do you feel being a part of their story now?
And we've seen this happen quite a few times now
where people like you and I are having these discussions.
Launch a podcast investigating somebody missing or a crime, and
there can be results from that. We've seen people go
to jail off the back of true crime podcasts. How
(32:29):
do you feel being a part of that story, and
is your hope at the end of this road that
you do give that family some closure? And he prepared
for the fact that they might not get.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
It going into this podcast. I was pretty open about
the fact that I never expected or gave any assurances
that I would solve it. I suppose nothing against anyone
else who's put together a podcast of this nature. You know,
it's a very long process. And since releasing the episodes,
(32:59):
more people have come forward and we have new information,
very very credible and strong information, which is really great.
And I think, you know, I'm coming in as somebody
that doesn't have a personal connection to Elaine. I have
a personal connection to Helen and Wendy now because of
knowing them for you know, the last almost three years.
(33:20):
But it's really about them, you know, I'm really second
to this. I'm just in a very fortunate position to
be able to help get their story, much of it
very very untold out to more people. And that's What
they really want is people to come forward and to
hear you know. It's funny even the smallest bit of
(33:43):
information makes such a huge difference, So I guess you
know on behalf of Helen and Wendy. Please, if you
do know something, reach out, even anonymously. They just really
want to know what happened to their sister.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Thank you to Kate for helping us tell Elaine and
Kerry's stories today. You can find Kate's podcast Out from
the Cold Searching for Elaine at the link in our
show notes. If you do have information that may assist
police to locate Elaine and Kerry, please call crime Stoppers
on one eight hundred triple three, triple zero, or get
in touch with us directly via email at true Crime
at mammamea dot com dot au. If you want to
(34:23):
see images from this story, head to our Instagram page
at True Crime Conversations. True Crime Conversations is hosted by
me Claire Murphy. Our senior producer is Tali Blackman, The
group executive producer is a Laria Brophy, and there's been
audio design by Tina Madloff. Thanks so much for listening.
I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation.
(34:47):
We want to hear from our true crime fans. Tell
us what kind of content you love, what you'd like
to hear more of, and a bit about your listening habits.
You'll final link to the show notes to take our
quick five minute survey, and you'll have the chance to
win a one thousand dollar gift card just for participating.
True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and
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