July 23, 2025 • 39 mins
At just 17, Lisa McVey was abducted by a dangerous man in Tampa, Florida. Over 26 long hours, despite unimaginable fear, Lisa stayed remarkably calm and sharp, leaving behind crucial clues that would help law enforcement catch a serial killer.
Filmmakers Jim Donovan and Jeff Vanderwal brought Lisa’s powerful story to the screen in Believe Me: The Abduction of Lisa McVey. Working closely with Lisa herself, who makes a special appearance in the film, they captured her extraordinary strength and resilience.
Next week, Lisa McVey joins us to share her story firsthand, in her own words.
Find out more about Jeff's work here.
Find out more about Jim's work here.
Make sure to leave us a rating and review on Apple & Spotify to let us know how you're liking the episodes.
CREDITS
Guests: Jim Donovan & Jeff Vanderwal
Host: Claire Murphy
Senior Producer: Tahli Blackman
Audio Producer: Jacob Round
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and
waters that this podcast was recorded on It's Mother's Day,
May thirteenth, nineteen eighty four. Two boys are out playing
in Tampa, Florida, when they come across the body of
new and long known to her friends as Lana. Her
hands were tied behind her back, and shockingly, her naked
(00:28):
body has been left with her legs spread open. Her
death would be the start of an investigation that would
see police discover a new victim almost every two weeks.
Michelle Simms, Elizabeth laudenbeck Schanel Williams, Karen Dison, Friend, Kimberly Hops,
Virginia Johnson, Kim Swan, Vicky Elliott, and Anne known as
artists Wick. Investigators couldn't quite see all the links between
(00:53):
the victims. I mean, some were sex workers, but not
all of them. They were different ethnicities, ranged in age
from eighteen to twenty eight. They all had ligature marks
where they'd been tied up, and all had been raped.
But while several had been strangled, one had been shot
and another had her throat cut. So not even the
same method of killing in all of them, but just
(01:14):
one piece of evidence would tie them altogether red carpet fibers.
With the rate of killings escalating and no suspect in sight,
police were desperately searching for the one thing that would
finally break this case open. And then, on November third,
nineteen eighty four, a seventeen year old girl who just
(01:34):
finished her night shift at a local timber Krispy Kreme
was heading home when she was plucked from the back
of her bicycle by a stranger. The next twenty six
hours would see her in a fight for her life
against a man who tied her up, raped her repeatedly,
and held a gun to her head. What the killer
didn't know was that his victim, Lisa McVeagh, was sadly
(01:57):
uniquely experienced with violent and abusive men, and while she
did look to him to be yet another vulnerable victim,
her presence of mind plant evidence of the crime scene,
an incredible ability to recall detail under pressure despite being
blindfolded for almost the entire ordeal would later shock even
hardened longtime detectives. But in the aftermath of her ordeal,
(02:21):
not realizing that she had actually just survived a serial killer,
Lisa knew she could potentially lead police to the door
of a rapist.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
If only she could get someone to believe her.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
I'm Claire Murphy and this is True Crime Conversations, a
podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to
the people who know the most about them. The detective
who worked the case involving Lisa McVeagh still refers to
her as the true hero of his career what she
managed to do. No member of the Tampa police were
able to linking a serial killer to his victims. But
(02:59):
as we often see in cases where women and girls
come forward with stories of sexual assault, finding someone to
first believe her story and then actually take action is
incredibly difficult, and sometimes these women are completely overlooked, especially
if the victim doesn't fit the typical mold, and Lisa
McVeigh certainly did not fit. Now next week we are
(03:22):
going to be speaking to Lisa McVeagh herself, who now
goes by the name Lisa May.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
But today we're speaking to.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
The director and producer of the movie Believe Me, Jim
Donovan and Jeff vanderwill the dramatic retelling of Lisa's story.
They worked personally with Lisa, who even makes an appearance
at the end of the film to explain how this
courageous and brilliant young woman brought down a serial killer. Now,
you might have caught this movie on Netflix when it
was released back in twenty twenty one and felt the
(03:48):
impact when you saw that real Lisa featured in a
world where young women are abducted and often killed. This
film showed Lisa's strength in being able to understand her
captor and escape. So what is it like to recreate
a person's worst experience for the small screen and how
do you help actors bring.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
To life someone's real life nightmare.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
First of all, I wanted to find out from the
both of you what initially got you interested in Lisa's story,
How did you find out about it, and what was
it that drew you in to feel like you needed
to tell that story.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
I was producing a documentary series called Surviving Evil back
in twenty thirteen, and we were looking at really compelling
and really surprising stories of survival across the board, and
we came across Lisa's story for that series and ended
up meeting her and connecting with her and talking to her.
(04:46):
And the way the series unfolded is that the person
who who survives essentially tells their story almost direct to camera.
And because she was one of our very first episodes
that we did for that series, I had the good
fortune to go down and spend some time with her
in Florida and with the director of the show. I
was there for the interview, and she also, you know,
she still lives in works in the neighborhood where she
(05:10):
was abducted, still lives, you know, basically the same part
of Tampa. So she's able to take us around and
show us where she was taken, where she was released,
show us the streets. And it was such a powerful
and really emotional experience that I never forgot. I never
forgot Lisa. I never forgot any of it. And it
was incredibly moving. And I think partly because her story
is so inspiring, and partly because she's just such an
(05:33):
incredible survivor and the things that she went through are
so surprising and shocking, and she's come through as just
such a great, surprising person. And when we started developing
movies and started developing scripted stories based on true stories,
Lisa's was, you know, within the first two or three
that we talked about was that we have to do
(05:54):
Lisa's story, and I called her and asked her and
she was completely on board for it. And then she
was able to do the same thing with the writer,
Christina Well, she wrote the movie, went down and had
the same experience. She went down to Tampa, she spent
days Lisa, she drove around. She really got to know
her and know exactly what was happening and what it
was like for Lisa when she was taken. And then
(06:15):
Christina went away and wrote an incredible movie. And then
in the course of setting it up, I talked to
Jim and had been a big fan of his work
and thought that he would be able to sort of
help bring it to life and do justice. We knew
we needed a very special and talented filmmaker, and so
we reached out to Jim and then he came on board.
And then from then on we were really just a
team and we all worked really hard. I mean, Lisa
(06:36):
was involved as a consultant, Christina who did an amazing
job writing it. Jim, who did you know, a phenomenal
job directing it. We all just work together to try
and do her story justice.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Well, Jim, I wanted to ask you what it was
like to have the victim of the crime consult with
you as you're telling that story, because some of the
themes in this movie are really difficult to tell sensitively
because it does involve sexual assault and involves, you know,
child sexual exploitation, it involves abduction and a serial killer
(07:08):
like that is sensitive topics, and you've got that victim
of that crime with you trying to help guide you
through that process.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
What was that like for you?
Speaker 4 (07:17):
All around?
Speaker 5 (07:18):
This whole project was intimidating in so many different ways
because you for me, it was my first true crime film.
I had up until then done purely fictional series or
movies like this, so the mindset is very different. Suddenly
(07:39):
when Jeff approached me with the project and said, this
is this is for real. So you're going to read
something that's more or less accurate. And like you said,
you're reading through and you're seeing things that somehow you're
used to seeing, except that the difference is these things
really happened, these crimes were committed, this person pulled through.
(08:01):
And so to have Lisa suddenly at our fingertips, you know,
to sort of like just kind of like dial a number,
call speak but more importantly, when she showed up. I
mean that was incredibly intimidating, because you're, you're, you're trying
to do justice to the story. You're trying to it's
all fictionalized, and.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
I'm I'm I'm a.
Speaker 5 (08:21):
Veteran of bringing stories to life that way. But now
suddenly I have the real person who came to set
and and all the actors and all the crew are
aware that this is this is really this has happened,
and and there she is. So in many ways, there
was there was that feeling of motivation to get it right,
(08:45):
but also a kind of i'd say a validation because
she was, you know, she was very supportive. She was
very supportive. She was she was there to try and
encourage us. I think she's saying, oh my gosh, it
feels like, you know, and I don't know whether she,
you know, was completely telling the truth or just trying
to help us get through uh telling her story, but
(09:07):
she certainly motivated the entire crew, and at some points
she got emotional, and that touched us a lot, and
for me that I had never really worked on a
fiction film where I was standing next to the person
to whom this actually happened, so an incredibly special experience
(09:29):
for us all. And of course we managed to go
down to Tampa and put her in the movie. At
the very end, you'll see her, and that was lovely.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
You know, I've watched this movie twice and I cried
both times she comes on the screen.
Speaker 5 (09:42):
She's just a badass cop and you just see her
there after seeing this vulnerable yet powerfully determined young woman,
you know, make it out of there. I mean, it's
a film that has many parts. It's almost like two
or three films at once, because you know, like you
see this vulnerable person get abducted, abused, all this violence
(10:02):
takes place, and then you see her start to figure
her way out and you see her.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Work with law enforcement.
Speaker 5 (10:10):
And now at the very end of the movie, you
see this this police officer with her charger and her
gun and look at you and it's just like wow.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
I was really happy that she was on board and
that we got to meet her and that she's actually
on the film.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
What was that experience like for the actors on set though,
I mean for the actress who plays Lisa, I imagine
that would have been an incredible experience to be able
to have her alongside her and guide her through that.
But I often think about the actor who played serial
killer Joe Long. Yeah, Like for him that would have
been incredibly difficult to be the perpetrator and have the
(10:50):
actual victim see his performance like that must have been
an incredibly difficult situation.
Speaker 5 (10:57):
My sense is that we created this bubble with myself,
Jeff and the actors those two, especially Rossip Sutherland and
where you know, we we had mechanisms in place, safe words, rehearsals,
we talked a lot, There was a lot of research.
We had this bubble, and my one of my first
(11:19):
jobs as a director is to is to make sure
that bubble stays intact so that hey, we're stressed for
time or or whatever happens. I'm there to sort of
keep the bubble around us and make sure we're making
something where we're not. We're trying to stay focused. And
so when when Lisa came in, I can't speak to
(11:40):
how they felt, but you know, I know Jeff and
I talked a lot about I was I was. I
was worried about the bubble, like I think, I asked, Jeff,
can you can you make sure you got her so
that I don't have to deal with Lisa. I deal
with the actors because I know we're on a schedule.
We're we're trying to make a movie, and it's I
don't want to intimidate them because we got to.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
Make this, we got to tell the story.
Speaker 5 (12:03):
So Jeff had a big part to play in that
because he was really taking care of Lisa, and so
I was opening the door and we would work or
talk or exchange, but then I would close the door
and make sure that we're still doing our thing, because.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
That's my job. Right, How do you see it, Jeff?
Is that? How do I remember it correctly?
Speaker 3 (12:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (12:22):
No, I think you really do.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
I mean it's also worth pointing out Lisa, who was
a tremendous asset during the entire like the writing, the production,
all of it. When she came and visited set, she
didn't stay for all of it. I think she knew.
I mean, partly, she's a busy person, she's got a job.
I think she also knew that as much as she
wanted to come and visit set, she didn't want to
see all And there were definitely times where she was
(12:45):
on set and you know, we talked. She always knew
what we were filming. None of it was ever a surprise,
but there were things that were still difficult for her
to watch, and so it wasn't as though she was
there for every moment, but she was there definitely to
see certain things and to give advice. And the one
thing that you know we talked about before, and I
think it was actually really empowering, was she actually the
(13:06):
police officers when Bobby Joe Long is arrested, who come
and arrest him and snap the handcuffs on him. Lisa
showed those actors how to do that, like as a
police officer, like, oh, this is how you do it.
So she got to help the actors who were going
to arrest the guy. Like the layers of performance meeting
reality meeting what happened sort of fold back on themselves
with it. But I think that was really enjoyable and
(13:28):
profound for her to see that in some ways, like
she's witnessing that arrest again. And then in terms of
the bubble, I mean, I would say with both Kenny
Douglass and Ross, if everyone really understood and wanted to
be careful with the story and they were all filmmakers,
like I mean, the memory that I have from Ross
if On is that Rossoff was often sitting at the
monitor even when he wasn't in the scenes, because he
wanted to watch him be a part of it.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
Like it's one of the.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Few films where there were many of us at the monitors,
not because we were crowded around, just because we all
knew it was this special thing that we were making,
and so even if you maybe weren't in the scene,
you might want to watch it, or be there for
the other actors, or just be present. And so I
think to Jim's point, it really was a bubble. But
it also felt like we all had the same mission,
which is sort of do rate by Lisa and do
(14:10):
the whole story justice. I mean, there's also there you know,
there were a number many victims of Bobby jo Long
that did not you did not survive, and we were
aware of that too, that that across the world. You know,
we're trying to be as respectful with this entire story
as we can. And everyone really took that on, everybody
from the cast, the entire production team, the other producers,
(14:31):
Like everyone was really on board with that.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
You're listening to true crime conversations with me Claire Murphy.
I'm speaking with the director and producer of the movie
Believe Me, the Abduction of Lisa McVay. Up next, I
ask about the actor who had to play serial killer
Bobby Joe Long on screen and how he navigated portraying
a real life person who was at his core so
very evil.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
The actor who.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Played Bobby jo Long, how much evidence do you give
him from real life to create that series You'll kill
a persona on screen?
Speaker 4 (15:09):
He was quite impressive.
Speaker 5 (15:11):
We met, you know, well in advance of shooting, obviously
because we worked on rehearsals and whatnot. But the first
time we met he had it felt like he had
a whole suitcase of research that he had done, you know,
like he was asking questions, and I was a little
bit taken aback because I don't I think he found
things that I didn't know about, and that probably Jeff
(15:33):
didn't know about because he had just dug into this guy.
And I have to say, for me to do to
do justice, to make a film like this interesting, you
have to have that level of curiosity and dedication to
the character. Even though he is a serial killer, even
though he is a deranged individual. He did all these
(15:54):
bad things. Unless you have a compelling Bobby Joe Long,
you don't have a compelling movie. And ross Off came
to it and I was truly impressed. I mean I
had to suddenly switch gears and try to get up
there and work, because you have to understand or at
least have some kind of an understanding, some kind of
(16:16):
a way in to this character, because otherwise he's just
a paper thin monster. And you know, a lot of
value in the film is left on the table if
you don't take the time to try and see, okay,
what's wrong with this guy? I mean I read up
on on things that aren't quite in the film, like
that he had that he hit his head many times
(16:38):
and and had possibly some mental issues that way, that
he had a condition where he had too much estrogen
producing glands or whatever, and and had developed these these
physical attributes that caused him to be bullied.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
And so on. So you know, like it's it's not
that we're trying.
Speaker 5 (16:57):
To forgive what he did, but we're trying to create
a sense that he's not just a a caricature, he's
a character. And that raises the stakes for Lisa's story,
how she overcame all this how she got into his head,
(17:17):
she managed to get herself released, you know, in addition
to all the other layers of what she had to overcome,
because there's quite a few more. But yeah, Rossif really
pushed me, and I think pushed us all to really
really work hard on creating a character that people are
going to be compelled to watch, as hard as that is.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Was Bobby Jlong still on death row when you were
making this film?
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Was he aware of what you were doing?
Speaker 4 (17:42):
You know?
Speaker 5 (17:42):
I asked myself that question a lot, because, as I said,
I've never done a true crime story, and I was
aware he was on death row, and in some strange way,
I felt some kind of responsibility. I can't quite put
my finger on why I felt this way, but I
had this weird sense that, you know, like I'm somehow
some kind of a judge in this guy's trial.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
He was put to death. What is it twenty nineteen, Jeff,
I think I looked aside.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Just after the movie came, after he was executed.
Speaker 5 (18:12):
Yeah, and so yeah, when we were making it, it
was still there. We didn't consult with this guy. I
have no knowledge of that. If the research was if
any journalists might have talked to him, so that that's
what we read. I'm just looking at public sources of
info about him.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Talking about the movie itself and the crime as it
played out. How accurate is it to real life? And
where do you have to step in and fictionalize some
of that story and why do you make those decisions
in that process?
Speaker 4 (18:43):
Jeff is more aware.
Speaker 5 (18:44):
I think of the background of some of the secondary
characters and how some of these things, some of these
characters were combined. I mean, we have ninety minutes to
tell the story, and there's an act structure. You know,
some things are done for efficiency and done for structure,
and I'd say a lot of that happened in the scriptwriting.
(19:06):
I don't know, Jeff, do you have any thoughts on
that one?
Speaker 4 (19:09):
Like how far are we from the real story?
Speaker 3 (19:13):
This is very close, extremely close to the real story.
There is very few liberties taken. It's very very close
to exactly what happened. As John said, Yeah, there's some
there are accomposite characters, there are things that are truncated
for time. I think, you know the difference between having
having both produced the docum the scripted film about it
it's the scripted film allows you access to a certain
(19:37):
emotional expression and emotional understanding from the characters, from all
of the characters, not just Lisa, but everyone, that you
don't get from the documentary. And I think in that,
because it's only ninety minutes, you can illuminate and kind
of shine that light and give the bigger sense of
the person as a whole. And that's through everything. I mean,
(19:57):
that's casting, that's the writing, that's all of it to
really suggest what the characters are like. But it is
very very close to exactly what happened. I mean, I
think we're trying to unpack and explain an awful lot
of Lisa's life, you know, and Lisa should speak for
her own life and her own experience, but just to
give insight into both what her home life was and
also how the abuse she had suffered and the trauma
(20:20):
she had suffered before Bobby Joe Long kidnapped her gave
her some insights or some tools in terms of that
were then going to help her with her survival. And certainly,
like you know, we couldn't unpack the entire story of
what had happened to her in the lead up, but
I think the movie gives you glimpses of that to
give you a sort of bigger understanding, and certainly in
terms of what happened with her and Bobby Joelong, it's,
(20:42):
you know, pretty much by the numbers of what they
actually went through.
Speaker 5 (20:45):
There's a lot of things that we can't show. I mean,
there's a lot of things that we pushed the envelope on.
Some of the rape scenes are none of its graphic.
You're not seeing any you know, genitals, you're not seeing nudity,
You're just but you're feeling it. And I think we
had to really push hard on giving you the sense
(21:08):
of the trauma that she suffered. But then on the
other hand, you have to think about the audience. How
much do they want to see? Like, you know, I
have an aversion to blood. I don't want I don't
want to see blood. I don't like seeing people getting
cut up, and you know what I mean. So I
have to think about the audience. Maybe somebody doesn't want
to see the rape, and I'm pretty sure you know
(21:29):
the network doesn't, So there's that. I mean, I think
we have to we have to think of the audience
as worth as we're making this. There are bits in
the story I find that are that are really left
that we had to condense into bits and pieces. And
I'd say that her story of abuse with her her family,
(21:51):
I mean, those things are all hinted at very quickly,
so you can focus more on her and what she
went through. But like Jeff said, there's a whole history
of things that she she There's a lot of stuff
that we were not treating so much in the movie.
We're sort of hint We're sort of saying, yeah, these
things happen, but we don't exactly spend much time there.
We're spending a lot of time with the abduction and
(22:11):
her getting out of it and helping solve the murder case,
so we have to sacrifice those things.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Next, I ask about Lisa's family and how the movie
was received by them.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Stay with us.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
We did mention that Lisa's story is in three parts essentially,
and a big part of that is the trauma of
the abuse that she experienced at the hands of her family.
But I'm interested to know how Lisa's family handled you
turning their story as well into a movie, because it's not.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Just a story about Lisa.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
There are other family members people who've been arrested and
sent to jail. And you know there's her mother and
her grandmother who are also involved in this story. Like
how was that received with her family?
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Certainly her sister was aware of all of it. I
mean she was, you know, it's strange from certain members
her family. Her grandmother other had passed I believe by
the time we were making the film, and so it
was something that that she was aware of. And I
know that, you know, she obviously spoke to her family.
She had she had a screening of the movie as
(23:19):
it was coming out and invited a lot of her
family members to it. I mean speaking of sort of
crying when the film was over. I know that they
you know, one of the times I cried while making
this movie was the day after it aired and she'd
had essentially like her own friends and family screening in Tampa,
and she phoned me the next morning and she told
me that she liked it. She was happy, she was
happy with the movie. And it was such an emotional
(23:41):
release for me to know that she was happy and
her family was happy that I teared up just knowing
that that for her being able to show it to
her community and say this was my experience, and also,
you know, be proud of it and proud of the
way the film turned out. Meant a lot to me.
Some means a lot to me. So her family certainly knew.
I think, you know, she's come to a place now
(24:02):
where and again you should speak to Lisa. I don't
want to speak for her, but I think short place
now where she's really owns her story. You know, she
has gained the agency that you see her fighting to
gain as a young person and has it. And I
think that's now know how she lives. So the folks
that she was close to certainly knew, and I think
some other people had passed away and it was less
(24:23):
of an issue for her.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
I guess the second act then is the abduction, but
the third act is her interaction with police and then
the subsequent investigation. How important was it, and I mean
the title of the film suggests that it was quite important.
In the aftermath of what happened to Lisa, she found
it very difficult to get people to believe what had
(24:47):
happened to her, even though the evidence looked pretty clear
that something terrible had happened. She had to fight because
she didn't look like the kind of victim that I
guess we would expect a young woman who'd been through
what she had been through should look like how important
was it to tell that part of the story and
what was that like to try and guide the people
(25:09):
in the film to react in the way a police
officer might have in that moment, because police are doing
the best that they can with the resources that they have,
but also they have been trained to react in certain ways. Also, like,
how how is it to try and create that scenario
with all those moving pieces, because police aren't always the enemy,
(25:31):
but they're not always the hero, are they're in this situation.
Speaker 5 (25:34):
This was very structured in the scripts, and it was
very clear that, you know, we were respecting what actually
happened in nineteen eighty four. As I saw it when
I've just recently rewatched the film, it was one of
the parts of the film where I was most uncomfortable
because I was realizing that, you know, like it's hard
(25:58):
to believe that this is the way things were in
the eighties, but that's what this speaks to for me,
Like it kind of feels like everything has changed. It
kind of feels like, at least in the world we
know that people are more sensitive to victims speaking out.
Speaker 4 (26:16):
People are more open to.
Speaker 5 (26:18):
Listening and believing when someone has the courage to say, hey,
I've been a victim of a crime.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
Here rape, all these things.
Speaker 5 (26:28):
I think in the eighties it kind of felt like, well,
the complete opposite blame the victim, you know, Like there's
some really unnerving scenes, which I mean as I watch them,
my skin crawls, Like when she's talking to the female
detectives and they're completely convinced that she's in a fantasy
that hey, you watch a lot of cop shows, don't you,
(26:49):
and you know you're watching this thing.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
You're going, how could they possibly be saying these things?
And yet this is based on truth.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
When she don't sit down with female detectives, you kind
of think, oh, finally, yeah, they're gone. They of all
the people in this scenario are going to be the
ones who believe her, and then you're so disappointed when
they don't.
Speaker 5 (27:08):
I mean, one of the things that is fun about
this for me as an experience is there were a
lot of people posting videos on TikTok about their reaction
to the film, and most of the ones I saw
were people just cry young ladies, especially young women crying
in tears.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
Why didn't they believe her?
Speaker 5 (27:28):
That was the thing that they seem to be all
latching onto, is that no one would believe her as
weird as that is, I mean, as strange as that
is to our ears today, because it's hard to believe,
but it's there.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
It happens when you were making the part of the
movie where we look into the investigation that followed, when
they are starting to believe Lisa, and she does have
some advocates in the police force who do finally understand
what it is she's been through, and then they do
finally link her abduction to the serial killer.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
It almost feels too hard.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
To believe that Lisa managed to do what she did
while she was being held hostage. Like, I mean, Jeff,
you've told this story twice now, Like can you believe
that Lisa in the situation that she is in which
she was sadly uniquely qualified to deal with? But can
you believe that someone would have that presence of mind
(28:25):
whilst abducted, tied up, blindfolded, sexually abused to do the
things that she did to survive, Like it feels so
unbelievable that someone can be that strong of mind in
that in that moment.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Yeah, I think it's it's I think a large part
of why the story is as powerful as it is.
It's it's why Lisa is so impressive. You know, in
speaking with her, there's there's also a moment, you know,
I think, I think her detective work, I think her
active survival skills also go through an arc. I think,
(28:59):
you know, at the beginning, she's she's trying to gather
information and she's just trying to learn anything she can
that's going to help her survive. And then I think,
I think there's also a point and in speaking with
her and having talked to her about it and gone
through her interviews and things from the documentary, there's also
a point where I think she becomes determined that she
(29:19):
doesn't want what's happening to her to ever happen to
anyone else. And so part of the leaving the blood
in the car, part of the fingerprints, part of that
is like, if I don't make it out of this,
I want them to know that I was here and
I want him to be caught. And the heroism of
that and the presence of mind of that is so
impressive too. And then you go to the third layer
of it, which is when she is freed and does
(29:40):
she is able to escape and she meets Barry Pinkerton
who believes her she has the strength to go back
with them and do all of the stuff that she
has the strength to help them really crack the case.
It's incredible, It really is incredible, and it's a testament
to Lisa. And then it's also you know, at the
end of the movie suggests worth remembering too that she
(30:01):
then dedicates her life to helping other kids, like she
has spent her career now as a police officer or
working to protect other children. And it's amazing. I mean,
she's a real hero and a very special person. And
that's you know, a large part of why the movie
was made. That story is so incredible and hopefully inspiring
for other people.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Have you been tempted to revisit this story again because
there is so much more to it, And as you've
already said, you had to leave out certain parts of
the narrative because you do have only a ninety minute
window to tell this story in. But you know, long
was eventually it was uncovered that he was connected to
know ten homicides and various other rapes, and that it
(30:42):
was escalating very quickly over an eight month period up
until when he was arrested, and then you know, led
to his execution, which Lisa attended and you know defiantly
stood and waited for him to make eye contact with her,
which he sadly never did. For her story, But like,
I've even tempted to revisit this because there was just
so much more to this woman and her story and
(31:03):
everything around it.
Speaker 5 (31:06):
Short answer, no, It's like it's like I have a
thing for the fascination that we have for these stories
where I have difficulty retelling the same story unless there's
a reason to, and I have a difficulty saying yes
to I find that there's two There's too many of
(31:29):
these films that repeat the same thing over and over again.
And to me, we told this story in a good way,
and it's a positive film. It's not just exploitative. It's
a story of resilience. It's a story of victory for her.
So I would not, at least I wouldn't tell this
part of the story. I don't know if there's a
part of it that would be intriguing or worth telling.
(31:52):
But there's got to be a reason we tell these stories.
As I said, I have a certain version to just
exploitatively going back to this darkness, so believe me is Yeah,
it's a dark but it's actually it's a story of
a victory of you know, good over your evil.
Speaker 4 (32:12):
So I'm happy I made it.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
I guess it's something we don't see very often in
the true crime space, is the real positivity that comes
from telling this story, because they often are, as you said,
really dark, and they don't really leave the darkness that often.
Speaker 5 (32:26):
Yeah, I think in these days, especially in these times,
we need positive stories. So I guess I would have
to see if Jeff can find another angle to it
or maybe comes up with another script, and if he asks,
I might be tempted to do it.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
What do you think, Jeff, would you revisit It's a.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
Really loaded question in a lot of ways, And I
think part of it is having told it once as
a documentary, or help tell it once as a documentary,
and help tell it once as a scripted film. I'm
endlessly inspired by Lisa and I have so much respect
for her and just like like her as a person,
you know, in the run up to doing this, I
was emailing with her like I'm looking forward to talking
(33:05):
to her on the phone a couple days, Like she's great,
you know, and she's really really inspiring, And so that
part I really like. But there is also, as Jim
sort of alluded to, there's such darkness to this story
even though there's the inspiration, Like, there's probably a limit
to the number of times I want to film some
of those scenes. And you know, I've had the good
(33:26):
fortune to produce a few other movies based on true
stories and true crime projects, and when we do them,
we're always looking for the stories where ultimately they are inspiring.
I'm I think, just both for myself and for the
people who work on it, and also for the viewers
quite frankly for the audience members. You can go through
(33:47):
the darkness if you're able to give somebody some light
at the end. And I think that's partly why lisa
story resonates, is that she comes out into the light
and we all get to see that at the end.
But the older I get, and the more of them
I do, I think, the more cautious I am about
spending a lot of my waking hours in the darkness
and having spent ten years making documentaries and you know,
I've done that a fair bit, and you're just it
(34:08):
does eventually begin taking a toll on you to just
spend a lot of time thinking about that. I mean,
you can speaking of a ross if you know it
took a toll on Rossof. Rossof is a really sweet, sensitive, smart,
you know father who in order to play Bobby Joe
Long had to go to a very dark place. And
you see that even just in the relatively short term
of our production. And so it's a bit of a
(34:30):
loaded question one I'm probably not answering well, but I
think that's it. It's like it you have to think
long and hard about whether or not you're going to
go back and spend more time in that place.
Speaker 5 (34:38):
I'll take a swipe at a at a coda here,
and it would take great courage. But the other film
to make, if there is one, would be about Bobby
Joe Long.
Speaker 4 (34:49):
What compels a guy to do what he did?
Speaker 5 (34:53):
I mean, if we really want to talk about it,
you know, there was there was a film made about
Hitler called Downfall, and it was quite controversial. People were
accusing the filmmakers of humanizing Hitler, but it was a
very courageous film. And I think as a society, if
we can't understand what compels people to do the ugly
(35:15):
things that they do, then we're copping out. There's always
a dark side, Okay, what I mean again? Researching this character?
Speaker 4 (35:23):
What pushed him? How did he? How do you get there?
Speaker 5 (35:27):
I mean, these are questions that we had to ask
ourselves and ross if in our story. But that is
not a film that's easy to make or easy to watch,
you know. And again it's maybe that's the question mark.
Speaker 4 (35:40):
Is there more? Is there more to learn from the
villains in these stories? Why did you do this? You know?
Speaker 5 (35:47):
Or can it be understood? Can it be helped? Can
it be is there any point to it? I mean,
these are all big questions. But you know, maybe that's
a part two to my answer.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
I think you've probably hit on something there because it's
pretty well known that women are rather large consumers of
true crime content, and I think I think a lot
of that is trying to learn and understand the motivations
of men, in particular when they are the perpetrator, and
that is something I think we don't get from the film.
(36:17):
Maybe a little bit more from the documentary, but we
don't understand his motives. We don't understand why he did
what he did or where he came from. And I
think that's probably the one thing that true crime does
for women in particular, as we get an understanding and
maybe we can then identify it in people around us
and maybe better protect ourselves from someone like Bobby Joe Long.
(36:38):
I think that might be why we get so much
out of true crime. So maybe that is it is
an understanding of his motivations in his past.
Speaker 5 (36:45):
Well, there's a film that I mean, it's a stretch,
but this film, or this four part miniseries called Adolescence,
I think on Netflix that would be I guess what
I'm alluding to is to you know, you're left with
these really conflicting feelings about what happened, what you just saw.
Speaker 4 (37:06):
You're asking yourself the questions, you know, and so that's.
Speaker 5 (37:10):
You know, like in these films, you know, there is
maybe that part of the story that is still we
don't understand. No, I don't think none of us really understood,
or there's some of it in the script when she
gets into Bobby Joelong's head and she starts to find
that crack that'll get her free, but otherwise almost nothing.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
You know.
Speaker 5 (37:32):
It's just kind of as much as we tried to
make him a compelling character for the purposes of telling
her heroic journey, we still don't understand this guy, and
maybe we don't want to, maybe we don't need to,
certainly not for this film.
Speaker 4 (37:46):
But that's of course.
Speaker 5 (37:48):
Yeah, is there a story that would help us help them,
I don't know, something like that.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
After I wrapped up this conversation with Jim and Jeff,
they realized they hadn't mentioned the detective who helped Lisa
discover who her rapist and who this real killer really was,
and they call him the second hero of this story.
Sergeant Larry Pinkerton assigned himself to Lisa's case when others
had dismissed her claims, many saying they couldn't believe that
someone who had so much intimate detail of the crimes
(38:20):
against her could be possibly telling the truth. Jim and
Jeff knew that Pinkerton had to be played by someone
who was known in Hollywood as a trustworthy man, a
man who could embody the essence of the one person
who trusted Lisa, who listened to her and in partnership
with her, helped catch a killer, and that's why they
chose Jagstar David James Eliot. Thank you to Jim and
(38:42):
Jeff for helping us tell this story. True Crime Conversations
is a podcast hosted by me Claire Murphy and produced
by Tarlie Blackman, with audio design by Jacob Brown.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Thank you so much for listening.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
Next week, as I mentioned earlier, we're going to be
speaking with Lisa herself. We'll hear about her lived experience
of surviving a serial killer. What she did that day
in the weeks after is absolutely incredible and we are
very thanks, thankful with Lisa for being so.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Open with us in her first ever podcast interview. We'll
see you next week.
True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and
waters that this podcast was recorded on It's Mother's Day,
May thirteenth, nineteen eighty four. Two boys are out playing
in Tampa, Florida, when they come across the body of
new and long known to her friends as Lana. Her
hands were tied behind her back, and shockingly, her naked
(00:28):
body has been left with her legs spread open. Her
death would be the start of an investigation that would
see police discover a new victim almost every two weeks.
Michelle Simms, Elizabeth laudenbeck Schanel Williams, Karen Dison, Friend, Kimberly Hops,
Virginia Johnson, Kim Swan, Vicky Elliott, and Anne known as
artists Wick. Investigators couldn't quite see all the links between
(00:53):
the victims. I mean, some were sex workers, but not
all of them. They were different ethnicities, ranged in age
from eighteen to twenty eight. They all had ligature marks
where they'd been tied up, and all had been raped.
But while several had been strangled, one had been shot
and another had her throat cut. So not even the
same method of killing in all of them, but just
(01:14):
one piece of evidence would tie them altogether red carpet fibers.
With the rate of killings escalating and no suspect in sight,
police were desperately searching for the one thing that would
finally break this case open. And then, on November third,
nineteen eighty four, a seventeen year old girl who just
(01:34):
finished her night shift at a local timber Krispy Kreme
was heading home when she was plucked from the back
of her bicycle by a stranger. The next twenty six
hours would see her in a fight for her life
against a man who tied her up, raped her repeatedly,
and held a gun to her head. What the killer
didn't know was that his victim, Lisa McVeagh, was sadly
(01:57):
uniquely experienced with violent and abusive men, and while she
did look to him to be yet another vulnerable victim,
her presence of mind plant evidence of the crime scene,
an incredible ability to recall detail under pressure despite being
blindfolded for almost the entire ordeal would later shock even
hardened longtime detectives. But in the aftermath of her ordeal,
(02:21):
not realizing that she had actually just survived a serial killer,
Lisa knew she could potentially lead police to the door
of a rapist.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
If only she could get someone to believe her.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
I'm Claire Murphy and this is True Crime Conversations, a
podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to
the people who know the most about them. The detective
who worked the case involving Lisa McVeagh still refers to
her as the true hero of his career what she
managed to do. No member of the Tampa police were
able to linking a serial killer to his victims. But
(02:59):
as we often see in cases where women and girls
come forward with stories of sexual assault, finding someone to
first believe her story and then actually take action is
incredibly difficult, and sometimes these women are completely overlooked, especially
if the victim doesn't fit the typical mold, and Lisa
McVeigh certainly did not fit. Now next week we are
(03:22):
going to be speaking to Lisa McVeagh herself, who now
goes by the name Lisa May.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
But today we're speaking to.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
The director and producer of the movie Believe Me, Jim
Donovan and Jeff vanderwill the dramatic retelling of Lisa's story.
They worked personally with Lisa, who even makes an appearance
at the end of the film to explain how this
courageous and brilliant young woman brought down a serial killer. Now,
you might have caught this movie on Netflix when it
was released back in twenty twenty one and felt the
(03:48):
impact when you saw that real Lisa featured in a
world where young women are abducted and often killed. This
film showed Lisa's strength in being able to understand her
captor and escape. So what is it like to recreate
a person's worst experience for the small screen and how
do you help actors bring.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
To life someone's real life nightmare.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
First of all, I wanted to find out from the
both of you what initially got you interested in Lisa's story,
How did you find out about it, and what was
it that drew you in to feel like you needed
to tell that story.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
I was producing a documentary series called Surviving Evil back
in twenty thirteen, and we were looking at really compelling
and really surprising stories of survival across the board, and
we came across Lisa's story for that series and ended
up meeting her and connecting with her and talking to her.
(04:46):
And the way the series unfolded is that the person
who who survives essentially tells their story almost direct to camera.
And because she was one of our very first episodes
that we did for that series, I had the good
fortune to go down and spend some time with her
in Florida and with the director of the show. I
was there for the interview, and she also, you know,
she still lives in works in the neighborhood where she
(05:10):
was abducted, still lives, you know, basically the same part
of Tampa. So she's able to take us around and
show us where she was taken, where she was released,
show us the streets. And it was such a powerful
and really emotional experience that I never forgot. I never
forgot Lisa. I never forgot any of it. And it
was incredibly moving. And I think partly because her story
is so inspiring, and partly because she's just such an
(05:33):
incredible survivor and the things that she went through are
so surprising and shocking, and she's come through as just
such a great, surprising person. And when we started developing
movies and started developing scripted stories based on true stories,
Lisa's was, you know, within the first two or three
that we talked about was that we have to do
(05:54):
Lisa's story, and I called her and asked her and
she was completely on board for it. And then she
was able to do the same thing with the writer,
Christina Well, she wrote the movie, went down and had
the same experience. She went down to Tampa, she spent
days Lisa, she drove around. She really got to know
her and know exactly what was happening and what it
was like for Lisa when she was taken. And then
(06:15):
Christina went away and wrote an incredible movie. And then
in the course of setting it up, I talked to
Jim and had been a big fan of his work
and thought that he would be able to sort of
help bring it to life and do justice. We knew
we needed a very special and talented filmmaker, and so
we reached out to Jim and then he came on board.
And then from then on we were really just a
team and we all worked really hard. I mean, Lisa
(06:36):
was involved as a consultant, Christina who did an amazing
job writing it. Jim, who did you know, a phenomenal
job directing it. We all just work together to try
and do her story justice.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Well, Jim, I wanted to ask you what it was
like to have the victim of the crime consult with
you as you're telling that story, because some of the
themes in this movie are really difficult to tell sensitively
because it does involve sexual assault and involves, you know,
child sexual exploitation, it involves abduction and a serial killer
(07:08):
like that is sensitive topics, and you've got that victim
of that crime with you trying to help guide you
through that process.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
What was that like for you?
Speaker 4 (07:17):
All around?
Speaker 5 (07:18):
This whole project was intimidating in so many different ways
because you for me, it was my first true crime film.
I had up until then done purely fictional series or
movies like this, so the mindset is very different. Suddenly
(07:39):
when Jeff approached me with the project and said, this
is this is for real. So you're going to read
something that's more or less accurate. And like you said,
you're reading through and you're seeing things that somehow you're
used to seeing, except that the difference is these things
really happened, these crimes were committed, this person pulled through.
(08:01):
And so to have Lisa suddenly at our fingertips, you know,
to sort of like just kind of like dial a number,
call speak but more importantly, when she showed up. I
mean that was incredibly intimidating, because you're, you're, you're trying
to do justice to the story. You're trying to it's
all fictionalized, and.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
I'm I'm I'm a.
Speaker 5 (08:21):
Veteran of bringing stories to life that way. But now
suddenly I have the real person who came to set
and and all the actors and all the crew are
aware that this is this is really this has happened,
and and there she is. So in many ways, there
was there was that feeling of motivation to get it right,
(08:45):
but also a kind of i'd say a validation because
she was, you know, she was very supportive. She was
very supportive. She was she was there to try and
encourage us. I think she's saying, oh my gosh, it
feels like, you know, and I don't know whether she,
you know, was completely telling the truth or just trying
to help us get through uh telling her story, but
(09:07):
she certainly motivated the entire crew, and at some points
she got emotional, and that touched us a lot, and
for me that I had never really worked on a
fiction film where I was standing next to the person
to whom this actually happened, so an incredibly special experience
(09:29):
for us all. And of course we managed to go
down to Tampa and put her in the movie. At
the very end, you'll see her, and that was lovely.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
You know, I've watched this movie twice and I cried
both times she comes on the screen.
Speaker 5 (09:42):
She's just a badass cop and you just see her
there after seeing this vulnerable yet powerfully determined young woman,
you know, make it out of there. I mean, it's
a film that has many parts. It's almost like two
or three films at once, because you know, like you
see this vulnerable person get abducted, abused, all this violence
(10:02):
takes place, and then you see her start to figure
her way out and you see her.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Work with law enforcement.
Speaker 5 (10:10):
And now at the very end of the movie, you
see this this police officer with her charger and her
gun and look at you and it's just like wow.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
I was really happy that she was on board and
that we got to meet her and that she's actually
on the film.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
What was that experience like for the actors on set though,
I mean for the actress who plays Lisa, I imagine
that would have been an incredible experience to be able
to have her alongside her and guide her through that.
But I often think about the actor who played serial
killer Joe Long. Yeah, Like for him that would have
been incredibly difficult to be the perpetrator and have the
(10:50):
actual victim see his performance like that must have been
an incredibly difficult situation.
Speaker 5 (10:57):
My sense is that we created this bubble with myself,
Jeff and the actors those two, especially Rossip Sutherland and
where you know, we we had mechanisms in place, safe words, rehearsals,
we talked a lot, There was a lot of research.
We had this bubble, and my one of my first
(11:19):
jobs as a director is to is to make sure
that bubble stays intact so that hey, we're stressed for
time or or whatever happens. I'm there to sort of
keep the bubble around us and make sure we're making
something where we're not. We're trying to stay focused. And
so when when Lisa came in, I can't speak to
(11:40):
how they felt, but you know, I know Jeff and
I talked a lot about I was I was. I
was worried about the bubble, like I think, I asked, Jeff,
can you can you make sure you got her so
that I don't have to deal with Lisa. I deal
with the actors because I know we're on a schedule.
We're we're trying to make a movie, and it's I
don't want to intimidate them because we got to.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
Make this, we got to tell the story.
Speaker 5 (12:03):
So Jeff had a big part to play in that
because he was really taking care of Lisa, and so
I was opening the door and we would work or
talk or exchange, but then I would close the door
and make sure that we're still doing our thing, because.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
That's my job. Right, How do you see it, Jeff?
Is that? How do I remember it correctly?
Speaker 3 (12:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (12:22):
No, I think you really do.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
I mean it's also worth pointing out Lisa, who was
a tremendous asset during the entire like the writing, the production,
all of it. When she came and visited set, she
didn't stay for all of it. I think she knew.
I mean, partly, she's a busy person, she's got a job.
I think she also knew that as much as she
wanted to come and visit set, she didn't want to
see all And there were definitely times where she was
(12:45):
on set and you know, we talked. She always knew
what we were filming. None of it was ever a surprise,
but there were things that were still difficult for her
to watch, and so it wasn't as though she was
there for every moment, but she was there definitely to
see certain things and to give advice. And the one
thing that you know we talked about before, and I
think it was actually really empowering, was she actually the
(13:06):
police officers when Bobby Joe Long is arrested, who come
and arrest him and snap the handcuffs on him. Lisa
showed those actors how to do that, like as a
police officer, like, oh, this is how you do it.
So she got to help the actors who were going
to arrest the guy. Like the layers of performance meeting
reality meeting what happened sort of fold back on themselves
with it. But I think that was really enjoyable and
(13:28):
profound for her to see that in some ways, like
she's witnessing that arrest again. And then in terms of
the bubble, I mean, I would say with both Kenny
Douglass and Ross, if everyone really understood and wanted to
be careful with the story and they were all filmmakers,
like I mean, the memory that I have from Ross
if On is that Rossoff was often sitting at the
monitor even when he wasn't in the scenes, because he
wanted to watch him be a part of it.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
Like it's one of the.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Few films where there were many of us at the monitors,
not because we were crowded around, just because we all
knew it was this special thing that we were making,
and so even if you maybe weren't in the scene,
you might want to watch it, or be there for
the other actors, or just be present. And so I
think to Jim's point, it really was a bubble. But
it also felt like we all had the same mission,
which is sort of do rate by Lisa and do
(14:10):
the whole story justice. I mean, there's also there you know,
there were a number many victims of Bobby jo Long
that did not you did not survive, and we were
aware of that too, that that across the world. You know,
we're trying to be as respectful with this entire story
as we can. And everyone really took that on, everybody
from the cast, the entire production team, the other producers,
(14:31):
Like everyone was really on board with that.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
You're listening to true crime conversations with me Claire Murphy.
I'm speaking with the director and producer of the movie
Believe Me, the Abduction of Lisa McVay. Up next, I
ask about the actor who had to play serial killer
Bobby Joe Long on screen and how he navigated portraying
a real life person who was at his core so
very evil.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
The actor who.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Played Bobby jo Long, how much evidence do you give
him from real life to create that series You'll kill
a persona on screen?
Speaker 4 (15:09):
He was quite impressive.
Speaker 5 (15:11):
We met, you know, well in advance of shooting, obviously
because we worked on rehearsals and whatnot. But the first
time we met he had it felt like he had
a whole suitcase of research that he had done, you know,
like he was asking questions, and I was a little
bit taken aback because I don't I think he found
things that I didn't know about, and that probably Jeff
(15:33):
didn't know about because he had just dug into this guy.
And I have to say, for me to do to
do justice, to make a film like this interesting, you
have to have that level of curiosity and dedication to
the character. Even though he is a serial killer, even
though he is a deranged individual. He did all these
(15:54):
bad things. Unless you have a compelling Bobby Joe Long,
you don't have a compelling movie. And ross Off came
to it and I was truly impressed. I mean I
had to suddenly switch gears and try to get up
there and work, because you have to understand or at
least have some kind of an understanding, some kind of
(16:16):
a way in to this character, because otherwise he's just
a paper thin monster. And you know, a lot of
value in the film is left on the table if
you don't take the time to try and see, okay,
what's wrong with this guy? I mean I read up
on on things that aren't quite in the film, like
that he had that he hit his head many times
(16:38):
and and had possibly some mental issues that way, that
he had a condition where he had too much estrogen
producing glands or whatever, and and had developed these these
physical attributes that caused him to be bullied.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
And so on. So you know, like it's it's not
that we're trying.
Speaker 5 (16:57):
To forgive what he did, but we're trying to create
a sense that he's not just a a caricature, he's
a character. And that raises the stakes for Lisa's story,
how she overcame all this how she got into his head,
(17:17):
she managed to get herself released, you know, in addition
to all the other layers of what she had to overcome,
because there's quite a few more. But yeah, Rossif really
pushed me, and I think pushed us all to really
really work hard on creating a character that people are
going to be compelled to watch, as hard as that is.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Was Bobby Jlong still on death row when you were
making this film?
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Was he aware of what you were doing?
Speaker 4 (17:42):
You know?
Speaker 5 (17:42):
I asked myself that question a lot, because, as I said,
I've never done a true crime story, and I was
aware he was on death row, and in some strange way,
I felt some kind of responsibility. I can't quite put
my finger on why I felt this way, but I
had this weird sense that, you know, like I'm somehow
some kind of a judge in this guy's trial.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
He was put to death. What is it twenty nineteen, Jeff,
I think I looked aside.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Just after the movie came, after he was executed.
Speaker 5 (18:12):
Yeah, and so yeah, when we were making it, it
was still there. We didn't consult with this guy. I
have no knowledge of that. If the research was if
any journalists might have talked to him, so that that's
what we read. I'm just looking at public sources of
info about him.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Talking about the movie itself and the crime as it
played out. How accurate is it to real life? And
where do you have to step in and fictionalize some
of that story and why do you make those decisions
in that process?
Speaker 4 (18:43):
Jeff is more aware.
Speaker 5 (18:44):
I think of the background of some of the secondary
characters and how some of these things, some of these
characters were combined. I mean, we have ninety minutes to
tell the story, and there's an act structure. You know,
some things are done for efficiency and done for structure,
and I'd say a lot of that happened in the scriptwriting.
(19:06):
I don't know, Jeff, do you have any thoughts on
that one?
Speaker 4 (19:09):
Like how far are we from the real story?
Speaker 3 (19:13):
This is very close, extremely close to the real story.
There is very few liberties taken. It's very very close
to exactly what happened. As John said, Yeah, there's some
there are accomposite characters, there are things that are truncated
for time. I think, you know the difference between having
having both produced the docum the scripted film about it
it's the scripted film allows you access to a certain
(19:37):
emotional expression and emotional understanding from the characters, from all
of the characters, not just Lisa, but everyone, that you
don't get from the documentary. And I think in that,
because it's only ninety minutes, you can illuminate and kind
of shine that light and give the bigger sense of
the person as a whole. And that's through everything. I mean,
(19:57):
that's casting, that's the writing, that's all of it to
really suggest what the characters are like. But it is
very very close to exactly what happened. I mean, I
think we're trying to unpack and explain an awful lot
of Lisa's life, you know, and Lisa should speak for
her own life and her own experience, but just to
give insight into both what her home life was and
also how the abuse she had suffered and the trauma
(20:20):
she had suffered before Bobby Joe Long kidnapped her gave
her some insights or some tools in terms of that
were then going to help her with her survival. And certainly,
like you know, we couldn't unpack the entire story of
what had happened to her in the lead up, but
I think the movie gives you glimpses of that to
give you a sort of bigger understanding, and certainly in
terms of what happened with her and Bobby Joelong, it's,
(20:42):
you know, pretty much by the numbers of what they
actually went through.
Speaker 5 (20:45):
There's a lot of things that we can't show. I mean,
there's a lot of things that we pushed the envelope on.
Some of the rape scenes are none of its graphic.
You're not seeing any you know, genitals, you're not seeing nudity,
You're just but you're feeling it. And I think we
had to really push hard on giving you the sense
(21:08):
of the trauma that she suffered. But then on the
other hand, you have to think about the audience. How
much do they want to see? Like, you know, I
have an aversion to blood. I don't want I don't
want to see blood. I don't like seeing people getting
cut up, and you know what I mean. So I
have to think about the audience. Maybe somebody doesn't want
to see the rape, and I'm pretty sure you know
(21:29):
the network doesn't, So there's that. I mean, I think
we have to we have to think of the audience
as worth as we're making this. There are bits in
the story I find that are that are really left
that we had to condense into bits and pieces. And
I'd say that her story of abuse with her her family,
(21:51):
I mean, those things are all hinted at very quickly,
so you can focus more on her and what she
went through. But like Jeff said, there's a whole history
of things that she she There's a lot of stuff
that we were not treating so much in the movie.
We're sort of hint We're sort of saying, yeah, these
things happen, but we don't exactly spend much time there.
We're spending a lot of time with the abduction and
(22:11):
her getting out of it and helping solve the murder case,
so we have to sacrifice those things.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Next, I ask about Lisa's family and how the movie
was received by them.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Stay with us.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
We did mention that Lisa's story is in three parts essentially,
and a big part of that is the trauma of
the abuse that she experienced at the hands of her family.
But I'm interested to know how Lisa's family handled you
turning their story as well into a movie, because it's not.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Just a story about Lisa.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
There are other family members people who've been arrested and
sent to jail. And you know there's her mother and
her grandmother who are also involved in this story. Like
how was that received with her family?
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Certainly her sister was aware of all of it. I
mean she was, you know, it's strange from certain members
her family. Her grandmother other had passed I believe by
the time we were making the film, and so it
was something that that she was aware of. And I
know that, you know, she obviously spoke to her family.
She had she had a screening of the movie as
(23:19):
it was coming out and invited a lot of her
family members to it. I mean speaking of sort of
crying when the film was over. I know that they
you know, one of the times I cried while making
this movie was the day after it aired and she'd
had essentially like her own friends and family screening in Tampa,
and she phoned me the next morning and she told
me that she liked it. She was happy, she was
happy with the movie. And it was such an emotional
(23:41):
release for me to know that she was happy and
her family was happy that I teared up just knowing
that that for her being able to show it to
her community and say this was my experience, and also,
you know, be proud of it and proud of the
way the film turned out. Meant a lot to me.
Some means a lot to me. So her family certainly knew.
I think, you know, she's come to a place now
(24:02):
where and again you should speak to Lisa. I don't
want to speak for her, but I think short place
now where she's really owns her story. You know, she
has gained the agency that you see her fighting to
gain as a young person and has it. And I
think that's now know how she lives. So the folks
that she was close to certainly knew, and I think
some other people had passed away and it was less
(24:23):
of an issue for her.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
I guess the second act then is the abduction, but
the third act is her interaction with police and then
the subsequent investigation. How important was it, and I mean
the title of the film suggests that it was quite important.
In the aftermath of what happened to Lisa, she found
it very difficult to get people to believe what had
(24:47):
happened to her, even though the evidence looked pretty clear
that something terrible had happened. She had to fight because
she didn't look like the kind of victim that I
guess we would expect a young woman who'd been through
what she had been through should look like how important
was it to tell that part of the story and
what was that like to try and guide the people
(25:09):
in the film to react in the way a police
officer might have in that moment, because police are doing
the best that they can with the resources that they have,
but also they have been trained to react in certain ways. Also, like,
how how is it to try and create that scenario
with all those moving pieces, because police aren't always the enemy,
(25:31):
but they're not always the hero, are they're in this situation.
Speaker 5 (25:34):
This was very structured in the scripts, and it was
very clear that, you know, we were respecting what actually
happened in nineteen eighty four. As I saw it when
I've just recently rewatched the film, it was one of
the parts of the film where I was most uncomfortable
because I was realizing that, you know, like it's hard
(25:58):
to believe that this is the way things were in
the eighties, but that's what this speaks to for me,
Like it kind of feels like everything has changed. It
kind of feels like, at least in the world we
know that people are more sensitive to victims speaking out.
Speaker 4 (26:16):
People are more open to.
Speaker 5 (26:18):
Listening and believing when someone has the courage to say, hey,
I've been a victim of a crime.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
Here rape, all these things.
Speaker 5 (26:28):
I think in the eighties it kind of felt like, well,
the complete opposite blame the victim, you know, Like there's
some really unnerving scenes, which I mean as I watch them,
my skin crawls, Like when she's talking to the female
detectives and they're completely convinced that she's in a fantasy
that hey, you watch a lot of cop shows, don't you,
(26:49):
and you know you're watching this thing.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
You're going, how could they possibly be saying these things?
And yet this is based on truth.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
When she don't sit down with female detectives, you kind
of think, oh, finally, yeah, they're gone. They of all
the people in this scenario are going to be the
ones who believe her, and then you're so disappointed when
they don't.
Speaker 5 (27:08):
I mean, one of the things that is fun about
this for me as an experience is there were a
lot of people posting videos on TikTok about their reaction
to the film, and most of the ones I saw
were people just cry young ladies, especially young women crying
in tears.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
Why didn't they believe her?
Speaker 5 (27:28):
That was the thing that they seem to be all
latching onto, is that no one would believe her as
weird as that is, I mean, as strange as that
is to our ears today, because it's hard to believe,
but it's there.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
It happens when you were making the part of the
movie where we look into the investigation that followed, when
they are starting to believe Lisa, and she does have
some advocates in the police force who do finally understand
what it is she's been through, and then they do
finally link her abduction to the serial killer.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
It almost feels too hard.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
To believe that Lisa managed to do what she did
while she was being held hostage. Like, I mean, Jeff,
you've told this story twice now, Like can you believe
that Lisa in the situation that she is in which
she was sadly uniquely qualified to deal with? But can
you believe that someone would have that presence of mind
(28:25):
whilst abducted, tied up, blindfolded, sexually abused to do the
things that she did to survive, Like it feels so
unbelievable that someone can be that strong of mind in
that in that moment.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Yeah, I think it's it's I think a large part
of why the story is as powerful as it is.
It's it's why Lisa is so impressive. You know, in
speaking with her, there's there's also a moment, you know,
I think, I think her detective work, I think her
active survival skills also go through an arc. I think,
(28:59):
you know, at the beginning, she's she's trying to gather
information and she's just trying to learn anything she can
that's going to help her survive. And then I think,
I think there's also a point and in speaking with
her and having talked to her about it and gone
through her interviews and things from the documentary, there's also
a point where I think she becomes determined that she
(29:19):
doesn't want what's happening to her to ever happen to
anyone else. And so part of the leaving the blood
in the car, part of the fingerprints, part of that
is like, if I don't make it out of this,
I want them to know that I was here and
I want him to be caught. And the heroism of
that and the presence of mind of that is so
impressive too. And then you go to the third layer
of it, which is when she is freed and does
(29:40):
she is able to escape and she meets Barry Pinkerton
who believes her she has the strength to go back
with them and do all of the stuff that she
has the strength to help them really crack the case.
It's incredible, It really is incredible, and it's a testament
to Lisa. And then it's also you know, at the
end of the movie suggests worth remembering too that she
(30:01):
then dedicates her life to helping other kids, like she
has spent her career now as a police officer or
working to protect other children. And it's amazing. I mean,
she's a real hero and a very special person. And
that's you know, a large part of why the movie
was made. That story is so incredible and hopefully inspiring
for other people.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Have you been tempted to revisit this story again because
there is so much more to it, And as you've
already said, you had to leave out certain parts of
the narrative because you do have only a ninety minute
window to tell this story in. But you know, long
was eventually it was uncovered that he was connected to
know ten homicides and various other rapes, and that it
(30:42):
was escalating very quickly over an eight month period up
until when he was arrested, and then you know, led
to his execution, which Lisa attended and you know defiantly
stood and waited for him to make eye contact with her,
which he sadly never did. For her story, But like,
I've even tempted to revisit this because there was just
so much more to this woman and her story and
(31:03):
everything around it.
Speaker 5 (31:06):
Short answer, no, It's like it's like I have a
thing for the fascination that we have for these stories
where I have difficulty retelling the same story unless there's
a reason to, and I have a difficulty saying yes
to I find that there's two There's too many of
(31:29):
these films that repeat the same thing over and over again.
And to me, we told this story in a good way,
and it's a positive film. It's not just exploitative. It's
a story of resilience. It's a story of victory for her.
So I would not, at least I wouldn't tell this
part of the story. I don't know if there's a
part of it that would be intriguing or worth telling.
(31:52):
But there's got to be a reason we tell these stories.
As I said, I have a certain version to just
exploitatively going back to this darkness, so believe me is Yeah,
it's a dark but it's actually it's a story of
a victory of you know, good over your evil.
Speaker 4 (32:12):
So I'm happy I made it.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
I guess it's something we don't see very often in
the true crime space, is the real positivity that comes
from telling this story, because they often are, as you said,
really dark, and they don't really leave the darkness that often.
Speaker 5 (32:26):
Yeah, I think in these days, especially in these times,
we need positive stories. So I guess I would have
to see if Jeff can find another angle to it
or maybe comes up with another script, and if he asks,
I might be tempted to do it.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
What do you think, Jeff, would you revisit It's a.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
Really loaded question in a lot of ways, And I
think part of it is having told it once as
a documentary, or help tell it once as a documentary,
and help tell it once as a scripted film. I'm
endlessly inspired by Lisa and I have so much respect
for her and just like like her as a person,
you know, in the run up to doing this, I
was emailing with her like I'm looking forward to talking
(33:05):
to her on the phone a couple days, Like she's great,
you know, and she's really really inspiring, And so that
part I really like. But there is also, as Jim
sort of alluded to, there's such darkness to this story
even though there's the inspiration, Like, there's probably a limit
to the number of times I want to film some
of those scenes. And you know, I've had the good
(33:26):
fortune to produce a few other movies based on true
stories and true crime projects, and when we do them,
we're always looking for the stories where ultimately they are inspiring.
I'm I think, just both for myself and for the
people who work on it, and also for the viewers
quite frankly for the audience members. You can go through
(33:47):
the darkness if you're able to give somebody some light
at the end. And I think that's partly why lisa
story resonates, is that she comes out into the light
and we all get to see that at the end.
But the older I get, and the more of them
I do, I think, the more cautious I am about
spending a lot of my waking hours in the darkness
and having spent ten years making documentaries and you know,
I've done that a fair bit, and you're just it
(34:08):
does eventually begin taking a toll on you to just
spend a lot of time thinking about that. I mean,
you can speaking of a ross if you know it
took a toll on Rossof. Rossof is a really sweet, sensitive, smart,
you know father who in order to play Bobby Joe
Long had to go to a very dark place. And
you see that even just in the relatively short term
of our production. And so it's a bit of a
(34:30):
loaded question one I'm probably not answering well, but I
think that's it. It's like it you have to think
long and hard about whether or not you're going to
go back and spend more time in that place.
Speaker 5 (34:38):
I'll take a swipe at a at a coda here,
and it would take great courage. But the other film
to make, if there is one, would be about Bobby
Joe Long.
Speaker 4 (34:49):
What compels a guy to do what he did?
Speaker 5 (34:53):
I mean, if we really want to talk about it,
you know, there was there was a film made about
Hitler called Downfall, and it was quite controversial. People were
accusing the filmmakers of humanizing Hitler, but it was a
very courageous film. And I think as a society, if
we can't understand what compels people to do the ugly
(35:15):
things that they do, then we're copping out. There's always
a dark side, Okay, what I mean again? Researching this character?
Speaker 4 (35:23):
What pushed him? How did he? How do you get there?
Speaker 5 (35:27):
I mean, these are questions that we had to ask
ourselves and ross if in our story. But that is
not a film that's easy to make or easy to watch,
you know. And again it's maybe that's the question mark.
Speaker 4 (35:40):
Is there more? Is there more to learn from the
villains in these stories? Why did you do this? You know?
Speaker 5 (35:47):
Or can it be understood? Can it be helped? Can
it be is there any point to it? I mean,
these are all big questions. But you know, maybe that's
a part two to my answer.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
I think you've probably hit on something there because it's
pretty well known that women are rather large consumers of
true crime content, and I think I think a lot
of that is trying to learn and understand the motivations
of men, in particular when they are the perpetrator, and
that is something I think we don't get from the film.
(36:17):
Maybe a little bit more from the documentary, but we
don't understand his motives. We don't understand why he did
what he did or where he came from. And I
think that's probably the one thing that true crime does
for women in particular, as we get an understanding and
maybe we can then identify it in people around us
and maybe better protect ourselves from someone like Bobby Joe Long.
(36:38):
I think that might be why we get so much
out of true crime. So maybe that is it is
an understanding of his motivations in his past.
Speaker 5 (36:45):
Well, there's a film that I mean, it's a stretch,
but this film, or this four part miniseries called Adolescence,
I think on Netflix that would be I guess what
I'm alluding to is to you know, you're left with
these really conflicting feelings about what happened, what you just saw.
Speaker 4 (37:06):
You're asking yourself the questions, you know, and so that's.
Speaker 5 (37:10):
You know, like in these films, you know, there is
maybe that part of the story that is still we
don't understand. No, I don't think none of us really understood,
or there's some of it in the script when she
gets into Bobby Joelong's head and she starts to find
that crack that'll get her free, but otherwise almost nothing.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
You know.
Speaker 5 (37:32):
It's just kind of as much as we tried to
make him a compelling character for the purposes of telling
her heroic journey, we still don't understand this guy, and
maybe we don't want to, maybe we don't need to,
certainly not for this film.
Speaker 4 (37:46):
But that's of course.
Speaker 5 (37:48):
Yeah, is there a story that would help us help them,
I don't know, something like that.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
After I wrapped up this conversation with Jim and Jeff,
they realized they hadn't mentioned the detective who helped Lisa
discover who her rapist and who this real killer really was,
and they call him the second hero of this story.
Sergeant Larry Pinkerton assigned himself to Lisa's case when others
had dismissed her claims, many saying they couldn't believe that
someone who had so much intimate detail of the crimes
(38:20):
against her could be possibly telling the truth. Jim and
Jeff knew that Pinkerton had to be played by someone
who was known in Hollywood as a trustworthy man, a
man who could embody the essence of the one person
who trusted Lisa, who listened to her and in partnership
with her, helped catch a killer, and that's why they
chose Jagstar David James Eliot. Thank you to Jim and
(38:42):
Jeff for helping us tell this story. True Crime Conversations
is a podcast hosted by me Claire Murphy and produced
by Tarlie Blackman, with audio design by Jacob Brown.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Thank you so much for listening.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
Next week, as I mentioned earlier, we're going to be
speaking with Lisa herself. We'll hear about her lived experience
of surviving a serial killer. What she did that day
in the weeks after is absolutely incredible and we are
very thanks, thankful with Lisa for being so.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Open with us in her first ever podcast interview. We'll
see you next week.
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