October 29, 2025 • 51 mins
She was once called "Australia’s worst female serial killer." Kathleen Folbigg spent 20 years imprisoned for the deaths of her four children, convicted by a flawed system. In 2023, science proved she was innocent, leading to an immediate pardon and release.
In this deeply personal interview, Kathleen speaks about the trauma of her long ordeal and the bittersweet reality of her freedom. She reveals what it was like to be suddenly released, the pain of seeing her private diaries weaponised, and the enduring grief of belonging to the "unfortunate club of the childless mum."
This is a powerful, raw conversation about survival and the lifelong consequences of a devastating miscarriage of justice.
You can find out more about Kathleen and Tracy Chapman's book, Inside Out, here.
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CREDITS
Guest: Kathleen Folbigg
Host: Claire Murphy
Senior Producer: Tahli Blackman
Group Executive Producer: Ilaria Brophy
Audio Engineer: Jacob Round
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and
waters that this podcast was recorded on. When you say
the name Kathleen Folbick, you may get a few different reactions.
Kathleen spent twenty years behind bars, found guilty on May
twenty one, two thousand and three, and initially sentenced to
(00:27):
forty years in prison with a non prole period of
thirty Kathleen was released from prison on the fifth of
June twenty twenty three after science stepped in and gave
an explanation as to what really happened to Caleb, Patrick, Sarah,
and Laura. For the now fifty eight year old, having
spent two years out in the real world, just how
(00:49):
hard is it to make people understand that you are
actually innocent when for so long you were considered guilty?
How do you emerge from that life to form a
new one after having so much of your young life
taken away?
Speaker 2 (01:07):
I'm Claire Murphy.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
This is True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's
most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know
the most about them. Kathleen Forebig's life has been dissected
in court and in the court of public opinion for decades.
A young woman facing the worst a young mother could
possibly face the death of four babies, was also facing
(01:31):
hate and vitriol of an Australian public who saw her
as a monster, a fellow prison inmates who saw her
as a target of a system that would take twenty
years to catch up to her innocence. Kathleen and her
best friend Tracy Chapman continue to advocate for women who
find themselves in a similar situation and are now telling
(01:52):
their story together. Tracy was unable to join us for
this interview, but her voice shines through in their book
Inside Out, which Kathleen does talk about as well as
much more. Kathleen joins us now, Kathleen, thank you so
much for joining us today here on True Crime Conversations.
We feel really honored to have shared some of your
(02:13):
story before, but to be able to sit down and
speak to you about it and your experience, I think
is we feel very honored that you've said yes to
sit down with us today, So thank you very much.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Oh, you're welcome, and thank you for allowing the time
and letting everybody have to say so that's good.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
It really did want to find out from you what
it's been like for you, not just since your release,
but the moment you found out while you were in
jail that Tracy was fighting for you, that your friend
had decided to take matters into her own hands and
really fight for you. Do you remember that moment when
(02:52):
you realize that was happening outside the walls.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Well, it was such a gradual thing, you know, like
she started to visit me, I think primarily just as
you know, one of my deep friends in high school
and one of my best friends. So she started to
break the ice and visit me. But then, of course,
then you know, when things start to happen that legally
meant we could take a few more extra steps. Her
(03:17):
decision to go down the advocacy road, it was, you know,
of course, it was major, you know, and you know
it's if anyone could have somebody like Tracy in my situation,
they should go find one, because you know, it's she's
she was pivotal in getting a lot of the stuff done.
It's been described in the past, as you know, she
sort of created a scaffolding that everybody and you know
(03:39):
everybody else that jumped on that scaffolding to help out
and volunteer time and money and expertise and all the rest.
Without Tracy, you know, building the scaffolding in the first place,
it may not have happened at all. So yeah, she's
you know, pivotal as far as I'm concerned. We both
like to send the message that someone liked Trace to
(03:59):
do advocacy in such a big fashion like mine. There's
a lot of costs that happened. And it's not just monetary.
It's emotional, it's mental, it's you know, it can affect
what path you take down in life. It's all you know,
there's a humongous you know, on flow and ripple effect
that happens with it. So for me, it was such
(04:21):
a gradual thing. But you know, I do recall saying
to you, are you sure you want to do this,
and quite often saying you know, I would say during
phone discussions, you know, if there's things that you wish
to do for yourself, please go do like you know,
so I think, especially when we're hitting lulls and nothing
was happening and we're all just wondering, what the hell
are you doing, I always encouraged and just sort of said, look,
(04:42):
if you've got stuff that you want to do then please,
do you know, I said, you know, and she tried
and did you know that sort of thing I said,
But unfortunately, to advocate for a case such as mine
that's so complicated and so huge, and because it is
your friend, you put one hundred and twenty percent in.
You know, she suffered. You know, you didn't get one
hundred and twenty percent back. You know that sort of
(05:02):
thing I said, because that's the way the system is.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Unfortunately, we argue, Please, she got her friend back and
that's probably more than enough payoff at the end of
the day.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
Right, Well, you know, I sort of thing.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
We it's weird because we sort of like I've only
been out like three twenty twenty twenty five technically two
and a bit eas or something now, and we're both
you know, she's the one in the state nom at
the other, I said, So we actually no longer sort
of really near each other with you know something, so
and you know, like life goes on, you know, and
it's you know, it's an unfortunate thing to say, like
she got her family life and her farm and her animals,
(05:35):
and I've got a different direction that's hitting new partner,
you know, new home life, gone, went back home, trying
to decide what I'm going to do with my future
as such, and so we try to stay in touch
and be in touch as friends, you know, some thing
I said, and that that's all you do.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
It's all you can do.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
But of course she knows that I'm always here for
if she needs me, and I know that she's always there,
I said. So it's a pickbrack bo sort of thing.
I said, So I don't think that'll ever change.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
I don't care.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
You know, we could be eighty on walking frames and
probably still doing it, you know, I said. So. You know,
we often used to joke about that as a friend
the best, you know, I said, you couldn't ask for
anything better. And you know we have ups and downs,
and we can argue like a blamie when we're not
agreeing on something. So because you know, she can be
(06:22):
quite forthright, and I'm very forthright.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
Once I get going.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Two peas in a pod.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yeah, you mentioned there that you moved back home, given
home for you as Newcastle. What was that like for
you to go back to a place that would have
been so familiar twenty years ago and now is a
strange new place.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
I didn't sort of look at it like a strange
new place, like I came home and any of the
navigation of the basic outlay of Newcastle hasn't really changed.
What I did discover was that there's a round about
every five seconds, which was getting used.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
To Canberra esque no longer exists, and.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Stations have disappeared, and you know, all those sorts of
things shopping centers seem to have grown exponentially and take
up whole city. I said, So those sorts of things
I had to get used to, but basic streets of
where I used to hang when I was a kid
or learned to drive or my younger life are all
still there. So the basic layout is my hometown. So
(07:20):
you know, to me it was also a I think
I was just determined to go home because it was
to me like a finishing of a complete circle. You know, Okay,
my circle went one way and got disrupted, and I
went off and all sorts of weird passes to where
life sort of goes, totally not expecting it to end
up where it ended up, I said, But I was
(07:41):
determined to make it end up back in Newcastle and
say I'm home now, and let's get on with life
and let's go forward.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
I think we are so intensely interested in what your
life is looking like now because that transition for you,
like so much has changed in the time that you're incarcerated.
I mean, technology has changed almost to a place where
it would be unrecognizable if you were to drop someone
into it twenty years after they've left it, and you know,
(08:12):
people have changed, relationships with people have changed. What's the
thing that you think you've struggled to come to terms
with the most. We will presume it's something like technology.
But you've connected to us. We use a program called riverside.
You're on your laptop. You seem to be quite fine
with technology, But what is the things that you're finding
the most difficult to navigate in this new world?
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I just I struggle a little bit with how much
life becomes a pressure for people these days. You know,
you go back twenty odd years, I feel like people
were far more relaxed and how they were going about things,
where everything now seems to be on fast forward high speed.
People have to have, you know, eighty nineteen hours out
(08:58):
of a day of a twenty four hour period just
to get anything done. I said, which is, you know,
sad for me because I'm just sort of like, oh gosh,
you know, no such thing as your nine to five
job anymore, you know, I said, the exist, But people
go to work at seven thirty, is dead at nine,
and end up there until seven thirty eight, nine o'clock
before they finished, you know, I said, So that sort
of the amount of pressure that people are under to
(09:20):
just to cope with the cost of living that seems
to have skyrocketed and have gone through the roof in
twenty years, you know, I said, So that was a
big eye opener for me. And you know, yes, technology
is a little bit. Yeah, I succeeded in doing this,
but as I said, I was here for half an
hour pressing buttons to make sure that I could. And
who knows what I've affected somewhere else online by doing it,
(09:42):
So I'll probably find I've lost one of my own
breaking somewhere along the way, you know, and the whole
you know, I find it quite disconcerting that there is
a lack of communication, conversation and people just don't look
up anymore. It's all this, you know, And I don't
know how many times I've you know, pedestrians have just
gone marched out in the middle of the road, and
(10:04):
I've had to go whoa because they have none and
looked up to see if they were going to get
hit by car.
Speaker 4 (10:09):
So I do. I do find that to live disconcerting.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Have you succumbed to the screen yourself, though, Kathleen, to a.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
Certain time of the night, it's off and I don't
look again.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
And I have a bad habit of just leaving it
somewhere and forgetting to bring it with me because I'm
not you know, I can take the dog.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
For a walk a good twenty minutes and go left
the phone at home. Too bad if anything happens to
me because I can't have my phone.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
We can all learn a thing or two from you,
I tell.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
You, so. Yeah, it takes a bit of getting this
to you know, Facebook, I only do as in you know,
I've got some friends on there, a few, and that's it.
I don't sort of do anything else. Googles my friend
on the laptop, I must say, I find out a
lot of interesting stuff.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
You know, It's probably more than I need to know.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Have you googled yourself?
Speaker 3 (10:55):
I have occasionally had a look and just been shocked
at how much stuff's actually up there, and to see
that it's even on YouTube of all places, I'm just
sort of like, oh my goodness, you know, but you know,
it is what it is, and you know, I made
the decision to open up and give some information because
everyone seemed to be just so wanting to know that.
I thought, you know, there's a few bubbles that needed
(11:18):
bursting and some correct.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
Information that needed to come out.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
So that was one of the reasons why I said
Yesak and decided to swallow the fear and just start
doing some interviews and then go for it.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Can you take uspeak to the day you were actually
released from prison because we'd heard rumblings via the New
South Wales Supreme Court that potentially something might be happening,
and then it all happened so very quickly, and then
all of a sudden you were just out, and we
were all scrambling because we're like, we weren't expecting this
to happen right now. So there's US journalists frantically typing
(11:51):
away on our keyboards to let everyone know that Kathleen
was out. But what was that experience like for you
on that day? Did you know something was coming. Was
there any inkling that you were going to be released
that day? What did that day look like for you?
Speaker 3 (12:05):
Well, we were all just that that day was going
to roll around. We didn't think it would take as
long as it did. After, you know, his honorable Bath
has put down his basic finding saying, you know, nothing
to see here, not sure why she's still there. Yeah,
you know, there was a good few months. I was
still wandering around working and having to live the jar life,
(12:27):
with staff even saying why you're still here and others
none of us knowing. So it was sort of like
just treading water waiting to see, you know, were they
going to do the right thing and give the pardon
and release or what were they going to do or
were we going to have to keep fighting and scrambling
to sort of get someone to say something. So, even
though we wanted it to happen and we sort of
(12:49):
knew it was going to eventually, it was always like
wet fish in the face because it was all very sudden, unjust.
It was just a bit of a shock. And that
particular day I was just working in Jarl life normal
and sent upstairs to see the boss, thinking I'm in
trouble for something and then get told by the way,
(13:10):
you've been pardoned by releasing you right now. If you
go getting that car, you're gone. So it was all
just such a rush.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Did you think for a second like someone's taking the
Pierce here?
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Yes, yes, for sure, because I think I delayed in
actually answering him, and then I actually swore at the
poor man, I'm pretty sure, pretty much saying you've got
to be kidney, I said, because it was all just
a bit too starden, a bit too yeah, you know,
And I'm sure when he asked Jacey about it, she'll
be able to tell you the horrendous story she had,
because it was also she wasn't told. No one was
(13:39):
told in the band, so not even my legal team
was told.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
So I was like, just get in the car.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Everyone was literally literally in the car, you know, I said,
So to being borrowed clothes that weren't even mine, and
a beautiful outfit that had been chosen didn't get to
be worn, and you know, and all sorts of stuff.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
I said.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
It was all very you know, shots of me getting
out of a vand holding a pair of shoes that
I probably should have had on my feet, but weren't
even thinking about it, Yeah, and later going why am
I hanging on to my shoes? You know, it's all,
it was all just very very fast.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Well, I'd love to get an understanding from you about
what jail life was actually like for you, because I
think the thing that strikes me the most, I mean
the trauma they've experience going into prison. Aside, you're still
a very young woman when you go to prison, and
you still haven't really grown into the person that you're
going to be yet. You still have a lot of
(14:31):
life experience to be had in order to become who
you're going to become.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
And then you go into a prison.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
System where people who were accused of crimes like you
had been are considered amongst the worst of the worst, right,
so they have to put you in solitary confinement. So
how do you even grow as a human being when
you're still that young, with so much growing to do,
when there's no one around you to grow with.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
That's a very good question.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
I sort of think growing occurred, but because of the
situation and environment that I'm in, I would say it
was you know, the only thing it really did was
cement my strength cement, the stoism, cement, the stubbornness, you know,
and cement. You know, the word resilience has been used
(15:20):
in all those sorts of words, So that sort of environment, Yes,
it helps cement and strengthen those sort of qualities. Whether
I would have gone and had or those had not
not been in prison, who can say. I've always been
a bit stubborn and had a bit of a strength
thing about me, I said, But I don't think it
would have developed into such the giant shoulders a major
backbone that I ended up with. I said, it would
(15:42):
have been a more sedate version.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
I always say to people, Okay, I was, you know,
thirty four thirty five when I'm in in so there
was a life hate before that, and I tended to
always hang on to that and say, Okay, it's not
a case of going in at eighteen and having no
life whatsoever and not even knowing what to do or why.
At thirty five, you know, my basic life, school's personality
(16:05):
was set the whole and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 4 (16:07):
I said.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
So I used to always go back and keep saying
to people, hang in a minute, I was a fully
grown adult by the time I come in here, and
I had to try to keep standard values and things
that the core of myself. I had to keep strong
and remind myself to try and stay true to that
core of who I thought I was as much as possible.
(16:29):
It can be made tough and very hard to do
so when you're in an environment like that, and I
had many a time where I slid behavior wise and
was just the basic naughty girl. You know, I said so,
but it was all in defense of trying to survive,
and kept telling myself, you know, even if all the
legal stuff doesn't work twenty twenty eight, I'm out with
(16:52):
these people, like it or not, so I have to
suck it up and do what I need to do.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
So that's how I dealt with it.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
But everyone's an individual and everyone deals with things way differently.
I've had a lot of women say to me, you know,
if I had lost one, I would have fallen apart.
You've lost four and you've been in prison for how
have you coped? My answer to that is, I believe
that everybody has a strength in there, and when they're
forced to find it, it's there. Some people have struggle
and don't find it others find it. Some people you
(17:20):
know who can do it reasonably easily, others can't, and
others really fight. Well.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
I didn't.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
I wouldn't say that I did it easily, but I
just think it could have something to do with, you know,
the beginnings of my life and how tough the beginning
of my life was. I sort of already had a
bit of a backbone, and that helped me cope and
survive with what I had to go through for those
twenty years.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
That's the thing is, I don't think a lot of
people realize that your story starts so much earlier than
the birth of your first child, because you do, you know,
find out somewhat older child that your mother is actually
was murdered by your father, and you're then handed off
to relatives and then make you wards of the stage
and you've had to sort of fight pretty much tooth
(18:05):
and now from the very beginning of your life. Do
you think that that might have added to that resilience?
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Does?
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Because I mean that would have broken a lot of
people emotionally, if not psychologically.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
I have a firm believer for me that it did.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
You know, whether you know, I've heard third hand stories
of me at eighteen months old or two years old,
being quite independent and just deciding I'm going to do
this or do that, and even at three or four,
not tolerating bullies or people who are picking on other people.
I said, So it was already there and developed, you know,
(18:43):
and sort of semi stayed that way, but developed and
evolved being in a tough situation, in a tough environment
like prison. A lot of my friends that I've met
along the way, a couple of them I met because
I was actually in defense of them against somebody else,
you know, I sort of said, and that's how we've connected,
and that's how we've met. And you know, I've got
(19:03):
a friend of mine who's over six foot two, and
she was being bullied in high school and I didn't
have a bar of that. So we connected, you know,
So I said, which was quite ironic, that I'm just
this little five foot five, you know, telling people rack. Oh,
you know, you know, so I think I pick on
someone else.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
You know.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
So it was already there, and I already had it
as a backbone, you know, third hand stories of me
at eighty months I was wandering around because you know,
my mother, for all intents and purposes. I didn't, you know,
I can honestly sit here and say I don't remember,
I don't recall. I couldn't tell you what you look like.
I've got a picture that I've seen. Don't really know
much or anything about her. I have heard that she
was very free spirited and just did you know, as
(19:42):
she pleased, and that she was kind hearted and whatever else.
But unfortunately for me, by the time she had me,
she had developed a bit of a drinking and a
gambling problem, so not the same human being at all.
And third hand stories of me just wandering around pretty
much taking care of myself and a singer and happy
at eighty months old, what does that say? You know
something I'd already started to, you know, try to do
(20:03):
the best I could, even at that age. Said so, yeah,
I think it's sort of I think what happens to
you in your life, trauma wise or whatever, it canmulds
you into who you are.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
And I guess it depends on how much you know.
I've been lucky.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
I've had quite a bit of mental health help for
coping and especially whilst I was inside, and now that
I'm out, you know, it'll be an eternal thing. Some
people don't get that to be able to help them,
you know, I said, so, they may suffer far more
than what I'm suffering. But I'm also very I am
mindful of, you know the fact that my situation and
(20:37):
all the people who helped me with it, especially my
close friends and stuff, they suffered mentally.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
And you know, and all that along the way as well.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
You know, I said, So, there was, as I said,
there was a ripple effect to you know, if you
want to stand beside me or help me out, there
was a ripple effect that you could be affected by it.
And as upsetting as that was to me, you know,
at the time I was dealing with trying to cope
and mentally sustain myself as well, I said so, But yeah,
I think you know, whatever your core person is, that's
(21:04):
that's who you are.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me, Claire Murphy.
I'm speaking with Kathleen Folbig, who spent twenty years in
prison after being wrongfully convicted of killing her four infant
children before her release in twenty twenty three. Up next,
I ask Kathleen what it's like to talk about her
children after everything she's been through and what led her
(21:27):
to keep choosing motherhood even after such heartbreaking loss. Kathleen,
I'm sitting here thinking as you're telling me these stories
of how resilient you are, about the moment that arrives
in this conversation where we have to talk about the
(21:48):
deaths of your children. It's a really awful thing to
talk about.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
It is.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
I mean, I have a kid, I now can like
when your story broke, I wasn't a mum, so I
looked at your story very differently than the way I
do now now that I do have a child, and
it changes you. Having a baby physically fundamentally changes who
you are.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
You become a mom, it's a second life for you.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
And so talking to another mum about the death of
her babies it is such a tricky thing to bring up.
I want to know how you feel about talking about
your children when they have been such a focus of
your entire existence, from becoming a mum where they do
(22:39):
become your entire existence, to everything that then you've gone
through in losing them one after the other and having
to recover from the trauma of those in still still
wanting to become a mum. And becoming pregnant again, and
being able to process that into a place where you
can be okay with being pregnant and having another baby
and not pass away from anxiety yourself. How do you
(23:03):
feel about talking about your babies with people like we
are strangers, and yet this is a conversation you're going
to keep having with people until, you know, maybe forever.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
I had to accept the fact that that's who I'm
known as. You know, I'm known as the poor woman
the lost four children, went to prison for it, that
managed to win the case and then get back out.
That's who I'm known as.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
That's the long story short.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
Yes, yeah, discussing and talking about my children. I used
to be quite coveted of memories and tended not to
share because for me, I don't have the big banking
vault of memories in regards to them, I have a
select few. The trauma of losing them for me, it's
(23:51):
hard to describe, because I sometimes still use it if
I'm in a traumatic situation that I don't think I'm
handling very well. I have what they call it. It's
almost like a deflective shield that sort of just comes up,
almost like I stepped beside myself, and I just don't
tend to. I may be answering you, but but it's
(24:12):
very monotone. I can go a little monotone and not
because it blocks me from feeling too much. As such,
I try not to do that these days, because as
far as I'm concerned, you know, for everything that I
went through, my children existed, and I would never ever
(24:34):
deny that they did, you know, I said, so, it's
a it's a rough edged knife edge that I sort
of run on when I'm when I'm talking about the kids.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
It's the decision to keep having them.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
You know that There were times when you know, I
decided no, I was going to go after Sarah. When
I lost my third one, you know, I went in
and discussed having my tubes type because I just wasn't
even going to go there. But considering I wasn't, you know,
either thirty or something quite yet or any just over,
doctor said to me, we can't, You're too young, you know,
And I got denied. You know, I've pretty much to
(25:07):
do it because they were concerned I was doing it
for an emotional reason, not a you know, and that
made no sense to me because I'm sitting there saying
to the doctor, how am I supposed to differentiate from
an emotional reason as to why I don't, you know
sort of thing. But you know, there was a few
years that went between Sarah and then deciding to go
with Laura. But you know, the stress mass stress of
(25:30):
worrying constantly and ended up being quite paranoid when the game.
But when Laura came around, I wouldn't wish that on anyone,
I said, because it was you know, I'm not going
to say it was a terrible decision, because it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
You know.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
I met Laura.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
She was beautiful and wonderful and enjoy in my life,
So it wasn't a bad decision as far as I
was concerned in the end. But yeah, to make the decision,
that was quite a racking process to go through. And
of course, you know, I had a husband at the
time to be considering, and you know, when you go
down these roads. I think what I sort of lacked
(26:04):
in in my relationship is Craig was conversation. We rarely
ever actually really truly spoke about stuff, and I think
that's vitally important. You really need to communicate. So for
anyone else that was going through something like mine, who's
having a trying to decide whether they're going to have
another child or not. I would always be saying, well,
make sure you have those conversations and you make them deep,
(26:27):
you take them mean, and you make them last, and
you really make sure you know so thing, because I
you know, I have said to friends in the past
sometimes that you know, if Caleb, my very first one,
had survived, I may not have had the other threat.
I might have just been quite happy enough to have
been a single parent, single child, household. But that's not
(26:50):
how fate, not path and not not.
Speaker 4 (26:52):
Where we went.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
So yeah, but trauma for me is like, you know,
everyone always says, you've suffered so much trauma, why are
you're even still standing?
Speaker 4 (27:01):
Why you're not rocking in a corner somewhere.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
And my answer to that is because I guess everyone's
individual on how they process these things. You know, I said,
so everybody says you've never had the chance to grieve,
and I'm like, well, technically that's wrong. You know, I
did actually go to all four funerals, and you go
through the grieving process. By the time you're getting around
to a funeral, you know you've got the weeks and
(27:25):
weeks after a funeral, that is, you know, that are
the most depressing parts of your life that you're ever
going to come across. But eventually everyone around you, you know.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
Moves on.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
I said, you can't keep, you know, staying in that
grief mode. It's not healthy. You've got to try and
attempt to get on with your life in some fashion
and decide which direction you want to take it in.
And that's exactly what I did. I kept moving forward.
Others didn't, you know. I don't think my ex husband
moved forward. I think he was always blagging behind a little.
(27:57):
And I think in the end, I just moved forward
a bit too far, and you know, we ended up
separating them. Yeah, so I still do that now. Moving
forward is my sole focus. There's no dwelling on past
too much. There's no lamenting it, there's no you can't
change the past. I try really hard not to have
(28:17):
any negativity or toxic thoughts about the past, you know,
and or people that have offended or heard or betrayed
or done whatever. I try very hard to just sort
of go, okay, well, those decisions have you made, that's
the path they've chosen. And there's just the path I'm
taking and you just have to go forward from there.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Does that extend that sort of moving forward and not
worrying too much about the past is extended to police
and how investigators handled your case.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
Because don't get me wrong, when I get police pulling
up next to us in the car, I can be
a tad nervous.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Really, I mean that happens to all of us, but
to you especially, Yes.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
As an automatic thing. You know, there's a bit of
a funny story.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
When I first got my license and I had to
be pulled over my very first breath test. The window
came down. I was so nervous that I think I
was fumbling and stuttering a little. So he probably thought
something wrong with his lady because she's not reacting, you know,
you know. And I had to find my license and give
it to him. And once I've given it to him,
he's looked at it, and I think he's then looked
(29:25):
at me, and then he's just gone, thanks very much,
here you can go.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Ah.
Speaker 4 (29:30):
So I don't know, don't know to this day.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Whether for me might have worked in your favor in
that moment.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
I don't know whether we recognize the picture and just went, oh, geez,
you know, just let this one go, or whether it's
you know, he was just being kind, or whether it
was you know, I blew with the thing and blew
nothing I said, So it was all a case of
you know, standard thing. But yeah, it's you know, I
don't think it's necessary police for me that I might
have a bit of a negative reaction to. But if
(29:57):
you start talking to me about detectives and some of
their tactics will, then that's different.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
When I read into how, especially how they confronted your
ex husband, they really when you look at the conversations
that were had, it feels very leading, like they led
him into making a decision, and then that sort of
tarnishes your relationship with him from that point on because
(30:21):
he spends the rest of his time believing that you
are guilty and that there is no way that it
could possibly be otherwise. And the way that they've treated
you in that process too is I mean, on reflection,
there are a lot of decisions that were made that,
you know, the conversations that we had with you a
grieving young mother should not have happened in the way
(30:42):
that they did. So how do you how do you
feel about those detectives and the way they handled your case.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
I it's a hard call, because you know, as far
as I'm concerned, police and detectives are needed in our society.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
We can't do without them.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
But of course, in any major organizations, I'm sure you
have good, bad, and average, you know, I said, So
it's just how it rolls. Yes, some of the tactics
and things that we used to make sure that a
case was built for me. You know, I sit here
now and go, okay, you take it right back to
even when he was first you know, he first approached
(31:22):
the DPP about my matter and was pretty much told
you're going to need more. There's not enough here, you know,
I said, So he on his own from what we
can gather, just kept going.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
I said.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
So it was sort of like, okay, you were just
told there's not enough here, but you still got after me.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
Anyway.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
That's that's where you know, I can sit and go
and shake my head and just sort of go. Would
that happened today, I'm not sure, you know. I hope
that hopefully some lessons were sort of learned here, especially
on how you treat grieving people. I said, because it's
sort of like to to want to speak to a
grieving person at a hospital straight up when their brain's
(32:01):
not even connected because they're growing traumatically through so much off.
I'm not sure that's a good thing to do, I said,
because yeah, that you know, things are said or not said,
or inferences made and all sorts of things. But to
build a case on that, I do find that a
little on the offensive side. And it's just sort of like,
(32:21):
you know that, I hope your lesson don't do that again,
you know, I said, because it's you know, it's not
a good thing to do. I sort of keep telling
myself he had a job to do, and he certainly
went and did it. I said, So I can't, you know,
I can't really say that much more about it. I'm
not going to say I hate the man, because I
don't personally know him enough to say you hate him.
You don't hate someone that you don't know.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Next, Kathleen opens up about what it was like to
have her personal diaries turned into evidence against her in court.
How do you feel about the use of say, your
diaries is.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Evidence that, as far as I were concerned, was offensive
and to.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Have we've all written things in our diaries in the
moment that make no sense or that makes sense at
the time. I'm like, could be taken in any which
way depending on your mental health that day.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
Right, Absolutely, And I don't know how many people, especially
women who's do you know, the majority? If you look
at percentages, it's usually women that write in these sorts
of things. So it's it's to me to use something
like that, and I only pluck out certain words and
then weaponize was to meet a disgusting thing to do,
(33:30):
and we all agreed on that. It didn't matter who
we spoke to or you know, but how you can
get that point across in a legal world is a
total different, you know sort of thing. You know. My
defense's team's tactic was to simply say, nothing to see here,
don't know why you're using them, nothing to see here.
Well that wasn't good enough, and I got done for
(33:51):
them anyway, And they were used in a specific way
to make sure that a case was bolstered and that
the case was pretty much built up around them. I said,
so for all intents and purposes, I didn't really have hope.
I've gone down, whether I loved it or not, because
the sign of the times, the fact that metal law
still existed and was threading through everything even way back then.
Speaker 4 (34:14):
Didn't really have hope.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Actually, so you were really aware of that and you
knew that in that time when you were facing court.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Were you aware of that?
Speaker 1 (34:21):
No?
Speaker 4 (34:21):
Probably not. Back then.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
I was always hopeful, you know, but I was fairly ignorant, naive,
and I kept thinking that the system would listen to
me at some point and get it right, you know,
I said, so to eventually find out and land in
your land in prison, blinking, going, Well, that didn't work.
Speaker 4 (34:40):
I don't know what's going on there. But it's too
late by then, you know, I said, so you.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
Precedents have been set, legal arguments have been done, you know,
I said, you start to become history when it comes
to you know, students looking up things and doing and all.
Speaker 4 (34:52):
That sort of stuff.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
So it's a tough It's literally a case of how
do you defend your random thoughts that come out of
your head that you were still enough to stick on
a bit of paper, and then someone goes and reads them.
And every individual has a different way of interpreshing something
they might read. You know, I said so, and I
(35:15):
can still do it now. Something might flash up on
the news and I'll read it and go oh, wow,
that means blah blah blah, And yet a partner can
be sitting next to me and go, oh, I didn't
read that.
Speaker 4 (35:25):
I think that reads blah blah blah.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
And I'm like it's a prime example, you know, yeah,
and you know, And sometimes I can still write stuff
even today, and someone will read it and then not
really understand what it's come from and take it in
a totally different way. So it's an eternal argument, really
eternal thing that just keeps going.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
So you said, then, like your land in prison wide item,
blinking and wondering where the hell you ended up here?
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Like I mentioned before, you had to.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Go into solitary confinement because people who are accused of
killing children are often targeted by other inmates. How because
that goes for a couple of years, But how do
you then transition into the general population, and how do
you protect yourself from being a target at that point?
Like I imagine you didn't have too many hand to
hand combat skills going into prison at that time, thirty
(36:13):
something year old woman, Like, how do you defend yourself?
Speaker 3 (36:16):
For me?
Speaker 4 (36:17):
Personally.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
I basically it was almost like I put up the
shield of bravado, and because I knew in my heart
they all got it wrong and I wasn't supposed to
be there. It very quickly dawned on me, though, that
I couldn't keep saying that, because when you're in there
in a situation, and you're in a prison for what
(36:39):
you're in there for, like mine, it doesn't matter how
much you protest as far as the concerned.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
The court struck you there. So you did it, I said,
So you don't.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
It's no point, and you're jumping up and down saying
but I didn't, you know, blah blah blah. So I
learned to go quiet on that side of things. So
for me, it was more of a I think I
drew down on the backbone that I already sort of
seem you had. And there was a lot of bravado
pretty much going on, and the ability sometimes to talk
(37:08):
and eventually talk someone down if I thought that they
weren't actually seriously wanting to hurt me, that they just
were yelling at me and screaming and blustering and carrying on.
There was quite a percentage of times where I could
say some stuff that just made them stop and blink,
and they would go still swear at me, but they
would walk away just shaking heads instead of continuing to
(37:28):
abuse me. I also did the thing of you know,
past someone, they might be negative, being given you glory
eye every time they look at you. But I used
to walk past, going hey, go every time, and sooner
or later you catch them out and they go.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
I killed them with kindness in the end.
Speaker 4 (37:45):
You know, so things.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
So it probably took i'd say within about five years
people that most of the women had realized she's here
to stay.
Speaker 4 (37:54):
We can't get rid of up.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
And the standard argument I was always saying was, you know,
you say I don't belong in here. Where would you
like us be to go? You provide me with you know,
this is where I am. We're all wearing the same
green tracks, we all bleed red blood if anything happens
to us. You know, I said that we're all female here.
So therefore, in that respect, no matter what anybody does,
we should be bedding together a little bit, not continuely
(38:17):
fighting and carrying it on with each other. So I
tried to use logic as much as possible when it
came to talking. But of course you get some women
in there who just stayed here logic the total illological.
So in that respect, I think it was literally a
case of defending myself by having so much Backbunder and
Bravado meant that they were a little unsure how I
(38:40):
would react if they took me on. I said, So
that gray area of whether I was going to fight
with them or not ninety percent of the time was
enough for people to go the year a year. We'll
just leave that one, you know, so everybody deals with
as I said, you know, I had so many women,
you know that there was about when I was in there.
The number grew up to about ten of us women
(39:00):
who were in for similar sorts of things, and every
one of us was different on how we chose to
handle other.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
Inmates, you know.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
So we were never really in main population, but we
did end up in wings that were thirty to forty
women strong. I said, so it's still you know, you're
still battling to survive the so called hierarchy at prison,
you know, I said.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
So where would you all sat in the hierarchy?
Speaker 3 (39:25):
I was never Queen Bee put it that way, but
I was never down the botom either, So it was
you know, I simply just chose to have my head down,
stay out of other people's business, which is what you do,
and worked as much as possible. And I think once
staff figure out that you're a hard worker and they
(39:46):
can get things, get you to do stuff, and then
they can rely on you to do it, you spend
far less time hanging around a whole lot of women
who are gossiping and just becoming negative in general. I
used to always try to align myself with people who
would joke and laugh and be merry rather than those
who were too focused on being victims and you know,
(40:07):
crying and lamenting that why.
Speaker 4 (40:08):
They were there.
Speaker 3 (40:09):
And people are always surprised when you say that you
would laugh while you're in prison. But there are some
absolutely cracker humorous things that can happen in a prison.
And if you don't have a sense of humor, you
know what you're supposed to do. I do have a
rather dark sense of humor, so it's not a you know,
but you know, prisoners can make light of any situation
if it helps them cope with why they're there.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
Do you then leave all that behind, Kathleen, like do
you step away from prison. These are people you've spent
decades with and staff that you would have interacted with
every single day. Do you just leave all that behind
when you leave prison or do you stay in contact
with people.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
I've got a handful of dear friends that I made
whilst I was inside, because I was extremely picky and
choosy about who I made friends with, and I used
to say that I would make friendly acquaintances and friendlies,
never friends, but occasionally one would sneak in that I
would have more more relatable with. So you know, probably one, two, three,
I probably got about four if that, and one lady
(41:03):
that is still inside that I you know, we have
a chat and I like to hear that she's doing
well and that you know, her plans for getting out,
which turned out to be if I had stayed in there,
we both would have been going parole in twenty twenty eight,
six months apart. So she's still doing very well, and
I know she's going to succeed when she gets out,
(41:24):
you know, I said so. But they are people who
are capable of turning things around and not drowning in
the seriousness and the traumatic side of being in prison.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
See You've mentioned a few times that moving forward has
been a focus for pretty much your entire life and
has helped you remain resilient in times rather than looking
back and wallowing in self pity or in grief. So
where does forward look like for you? Because you and
Tracy have written a book together which you have been
touring around the place and really telling your story and
(41:58):
advocating for women who find themselves in this situation, which, interestingly,
at the time when you were before the courts, it
was like unheard of that four children could all you know,
die from SIDS from the same family, and it's been
revealed over time that that is in fact not the
case and that it has happened to other families. And
so your advocacy is now making sure that people understand
(42:20):
your story and how it can be implied to many others.
Is that where future Kathleen lives in the advocacy space?
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Does she have other dreams that we're looking forward to?
Speaker 3 (42:33):
I that's that cool. I don't mind doing things like this.
I don't mind if women wish to speak and talk
about how you cope with things like this. I'm a
firm believer that strength is an inward thing. I said,
everybody has it. It's there, you just have to tap
and find it. So you know it's doing this sort
(42:56):
of thing. I thought I would be quite shy and
reserved and in would with it and not be able
to do it. But it seems, you know, I'm doing
quite fine. The book for me was a very cathartic
thing to do, and I tapped into you know, I
write journals most of my life, so I think I
tapped into that ability to just write stuff and you know,
(43:20):
with help from editors and everything else that you know,
the crew that we did have to do this, try
to interrupt.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
You're not concerned that anyone's going to look at these
journals at some stage and misinterpret them.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
No, yeah, you know. So don't get me wrong, and
you never get me writing in another one. But writing
seems to be something I enjoyed doing, and it's whether
it's a flair or something I've got.
Speaker 4 (43:42):
Who knows the future for me?
Speaker 3 (43:43):
You know, I might travel to go down that path
again and just see if I could do something and
keep writing in such a fashion. And or yes, you're
doing talks around the place and encouraging women that I
think my message is basically, whatever you're going through, traumatic
or not, if you've got a group of friends that
(44:04):
are helping to hold you up and you've got the
scaf around you, you survive and you can come out
the other side. And even for those who don't have that,
there are so many organizations and that out there these
days that can help you through.
Speaker 4 (44:18):
That sort of stuff.
Speaker 3 (44:19):
I think my message just is there is life after
and you just have to make the decision that you
want it. I said, So that's my message. I'm pretty
an ordinary girl.
Speaker 4 (44:29):
I don't you know. I'm not planning.
Speaker 3 (44:31):
I'm you know, people say, how would you like to
go bunge of jumping, skydiving and doing all these things,
and I'm shaking my head going on and it's been
to any years in prison to go jumping out of
a plane and kill myself.
Speaker 4 (44:40):
It's just not.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
I've got life left to live now, right, yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:46):
I said, So, you know, I enjoy simpler things, you know,
like walking the dog, you know, or just sitting on
the lounge with the own pattern. Is he a glorious
thing for me? Staring out a window watching life go
by my best thing.
Speaker 4 (44:56):
Ever.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
I'm quite a people person, watcher and I love to,
you know, do that sort of thing. It's simple things
like walk, sunrise of sunsets. I'm still enjoying all of
those things, good food to enjoy a little bit too
much unfortunately.
Speaker 4 (45:07):
Ah, but you.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
Know that's sort of like, you know, it's more simple
for me, and I enjoy the you know, the simpler
things in life. And I would be quite happy to
spend the next thirty years if I'm lucky to do that,
if I go off on the other paths and I write,
and I talk and I do these sorts of things
podcasts and whatever. To me, they're an added bonus, you know.
(45:29):
And if I'm helping anybody along the way, that's great too. Yeah,
I don't mind doing that. You know, we still got
in a whole you know, there are other people that
are going to tackle the whole legal reform in an
attempt to try to reform our system a little because
it does, unfortunately need it. Everyone has been in to
do with my case believes that, you know, a CECRC
Criminal Case Review Commissions needed and that that would be
(45:52):
a fairer way to do things. You know, I said,
you know, I believe that, you know, if there have
been that sort of committee or a commission available at
the time when my stuff will hit the fans, so
to speak. I may not have ended up in prison
for as long as I was in there. You know,
it could have been looked at, reviewed, you know, taken
on board and or you.
Speaker 4 (46:10):
Know, but.
Speaker 3 (46:12):
We just sort of think, you know, there was an
awful lot of in my case particular, an awful lot
of not listening going on because the decision had been made,
that the path chosen, and we had so much trouble
with the same information once, you know, once you get
denied appeals and you get and you're on a trial
and you get found guilty, it's so hard to get
the system to look or hear or see anything else.
(46:35):
And every time you're in front of a judge, they're
going off the same information all the time, and it's
very difficult to get them to all sideways.
Speaker 4 (46:42):
In any way to go.
Speaker 3 (46:44):
By the by the time I'd gone to Bathurst, you
were looking at you know, I think it was nearly
eighteen or judges I sat in front of in twenty years.
But he was the first semi progressive one that went okay,
there could be something to see what's going on, you know,
I said, so, it's just unfortunate it took twenty years
to get there.
Speaker 4 (47:02):
Perform needs doing.
Speaker 3 (47:03):
I can't see myself being a Big four when it
comes to the reform side. I've always said I'm happy
to be rolled out if my face case and me
speaking helps in that manner. But I'm not likely to
be up a parliment steps with the placard, you know,
and knocking on doors and saying you need to change something,
because I think that it needs to come from inside
(47:25):
the system. The system needs to change, so the threat
needs to come from.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
Just finally, Kathleen, I want to understand from you how
you how you feel that place in your heart of mum,
you know, with Caleb making your mom, and then Patrick
and Sarah and Laura or adding to that, and then
your ability to become a mum again is cut off completely,
(47:50):
you have, that option is taken away from you as
your center prison. How do you feel that place in
your heart because you are a mother. How do you
then express that now that you're a free woman again.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
I I.
Speaker 3 (48:08):
I will always say I'm mom. I simply say I'm
a childless mum, you know, sort of things. So as
cruel as that sounds, that is what I am. I
can still walk down the street and spot especially little
toddlers will make me smile, knowing and especially when they're
just you know, there was a little kid down the
street not long a oot the shopping center I was at,
(48:29):
had run away a bit from his parents. His parents
didn't even really realize because they were busy to do something.
He's kicking things around, He's doing whatever he wanted to.
And I just simply smiled, looked at you and said,
mayby be that age again when you just don't care,
you're just doing your own thing, you know. And then parents,
of course went right, you know sort of things. So
sometimes you know, I've been to dinners and things with friends,
(48:52):
and some of them I've thought I had had little
ones there, grandchildren.
Speaker 4 (48:56):
Of course.
Speaker 3 (48:56):
At the time and the night, I'm fine with it
and I can relate and do whatever, but I do
suffer the next day with the depression. Here I said,
So it's a response that's just automatic. I tend to
want to not really go out or not see anyone,
and I just need that time to go. Well, you know,
as pleasant as that was, that her you know, I said,
(49:18):
So I can still have quite painful moments with it all.
And you know, Mother's Day I'm not a fan of
because I don't get to celebrate it like everybody else.
So I tend to steer clear of it, you know,
I said. So there's just little things like that, you know.
I said, So I always say I'm a mum, you know,
and everyone else will say, you know, you're a mum, Cathy,
(49:40):
that's all there is to it. I said, yes, But
unfortunately I'm in the relegated unfortunate club of being a
child loss mum.
Speaker 4 (49:47):
I said, So.
Speaker 3 (49:49):
There's it's a pain there that'll be there forever. It's
never going to go away. People say time heels. I said,
I don't believe that. I think time lessons not necessarily heels,
you know, because you know, Caleb would be you know, gosh,
nearly thirty six, you know, he said, if you'd been
around it, we'd been about thirty six now, you know,
I said, So all of my children would have been
grown adults, moved on, and I possibly could have been
(50:10):
a grandmother by now, you know, I said, So little
things like that, you know, a sort of go that's
a bit painful, but I used to live vicariously through
everybody else's children, especially when I was inside. You know,
Tracy's son, Presley, who adore He grew up in front
of me, but I never actually met him until I
was really sat day, you know, I said, so, you know,
(50:31):
and my other friends children too. You know, I heard
about them, heard about all their exploits. But it's very different.
You know, people probably don't know this, but I've not
had a child in my arms since. I think the
first day I do when someone hands me a baby, says,
can you just watch this?
Speaker 4 (50:48):
Be like, I'm not sure how that will go.
Speaker 3 (50:54):
Big.
Speaker 1 (50:54):
Thank you to Kathleen for speaking with us today. You
can find her book with Tracy Chapman Inside Out at
the link in our show notes. If you want to
see images from this story, head to our Instagram page
at True Crime Conversations us a follow, and have a
look at our case explainers as well while you're there.
If you enjoyed this episode, please review our show on
Apple Podcasts or leave a comment on Spotify. True Crime
(51:15):
Conversations is hosted by me Claire Murphy and produced by
Tarlie Blackman, with audio designed by Jacob Brown.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
Thanks so much for listening.
Speaker 1 (51:22):
I'll be back next week with another true crime conversation.
True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and
waters that this podcast was recorded on. When you say
the name Kathleen Folbick, you may get a few different reactions.
Kathleen spent twenty years behind bars, found guilty on May
twenty one, two thousand and three, and initially sentenced to
(00:27):
forty years in prison with a non prole period of
thirty Kathleen was released from prison on the fifth of
June twenty twenty three after science stepped in and gave
an explanation as to what really happened to Caleb, Patrick, Sarah,
and Laura. For the now fifty eight year old, having
spent two years out in the real world, just how
(00:49):
hard is it to make people understand that you are
actually innocent when for so long you were considered guilty?
How do you emerge from that life to form a
new one after having so much of your young life
taken away?
Speaker 2 (01:07):
I'm Claire Murphy.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
This is True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's
most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know
the most about them. Kathleen Forebig's life has been dissected
in court and in the court of public opinion for decades.
A young woman facing the worst a young mother could
possibly face the death of four babies, was also facing
(01:31):
hate and vitriol of an Australian public who saw her
as a monster, a fellow prison inmates who saw her
as a target of a system that would take twenty
years to catch up to her innocence. Kathleen and her
best friend Tracy Chapman continue to advocate for women who
find themselves in a similar situation and are now telling
(01:52):
their story together. Tracy was unable to join us for
this interview, but her voice shines through in their book
Inside Out, which Kathleen does talk about as well as
much more. Kathleen joins us now, Kathleen, thank you so
much for joining us today here on True Crime Conversations.
We feel really honored to have shared some of your
(02:13):
story before, but to be able to sit down and
speak to you about it and your experience, I think
is we feel very honored that you've said yes to
sit down with us today, So thank you very much.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Oh, you're welcome, and thank you for allowing the time
and letting everybody have to say so that's good.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
It really did want to find out from you what
it's been like for you, not just since your release,
but the moment you found out while you were in
jail that Tracy was fighting for you, that your friend
had decided to take matters into her own hands and
really fight for you. Do you remember that moment when
(02:52):
you realize that was happening outside the walls.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Well, it was such a gradual thing, you know, like
she started to visit me, I think primarily just as
you know, one of my deep friends in high school
and one of my best friends. So she started to
break the ice and visit me. But then, of course,
then you know, when things start to happen that legally
meant we could take a few more extra steps. Her
(03:17):
decision to go down the advocacy road, it was, you know,
of course, it was major, you know, and you know
it's if anyone could have somebody like Tracy in my situation,
they should go find one, because you know, it's she's
she was pivotal in getting a lot of the stuff done.
It's been described in the past, as you know, she
sort of created a scaffolding that everybody and you know
(03:39):
everybody else that jumped on that scaffolding to help out
and volunteer time and money and expertise and all the rest.
Without Tracy, you know, building the scaffolding in the first place,
it may not have happened at all. So yeah, she's
you know, pivotal as far as I'm concerned. We both
like to send the message that someone liked Trace to
(03:59):
do advocacy in such a big fashion like mine. There's
a lot of costs that happened. And it's not just monetary.
It's emotional, it's mental, it's you know, it can affect
what path you take down in life. It's all you know,
there's a humongous you know, on flow and ripple effect
that happens with it. So for me, it was such
(04:21):
a gradual thing. But you know, I do recall saying
to you, are you sure you want to do this,
and quite often saying you know, I would say during
phone discussions, you know, if there's things that you wish
to do for yourself, please go do like you know,
so I think, especially when we're hitting lulls and nothing
was happening and we're all just wondering, what the hell
are you doing, I always encouraged and just sort of said, look,
(04:42):
if you've got stuff that you want to do then please,
do you know, I said, you know, and she tried
and did you know that sort of thing I said,
But unfortunately, to advocate for a case such as mine
that's so complicated and so huge, and because it is
your friend, you put one hundred and twenty percent in.
You know, she suffered. You know, you didn't get one
hundred and twenty percent back. You know that sort of
(05:02):
thing I said, because that's the way the system is.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Unfortunately, we argue, Please, she got her friend back and
that's probably more than enough payoff at the end of
the day.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
Right, Well, you know, I sort of thing.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
We it's weird because we sort of like I've only
been out like three twenty twenty twenty five technically two
and a bit eas or something now, and we're both
you know, she's the one in the state nom at
the other, I said, So we actually no longer sort
of really near each other with you know something, so
and you know, like life goes on, you know, and
it's you know, it's an unfortunate thing to say, like
she got her family life and her farm and her animals,
(05:35):
and I've got a different direction that's hitting new partner,
you know, new home life, gone, went back home, trying
to decide what I'm going to do with my future
as such, and so we try to stay in touch
and be in touch as friends, you know, some thing
I said, and that that's all you do.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
It's all you can do.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
But of course she knows that I'm always here for
if she needs me, and I know that she's always there,
I said. So it's a pickbrack bo sort of thing.
I said, So I don't think that'll ever change.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
I don't care.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
You know, we could be eighty on walking frames and
probably still doing it, you know, I said. So. You know,
we often used to joke about that as a friend
the best, you know, I said, you couldn't ask for
anything better. And you know we have ups and downs,
and we can argue like a blamie when we're not
agreeing on something. So because you know, she can be
(06:22):
quite forthright, and I'm very forthright.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
Once I get going.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Two peas in a pod.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yeah, you mentioned there that you moved back home, given
home for you as Newcastle. What was that like for
you to go back to a place that would have
been so familiar twenty years ago and now is a
strange new place.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
I didn't sort of look at it like a strange
new place, like I came home and any of the
navigation of the basic outlay of Newcastle hasn't really changed.
What I did discover was that there's a round about
every five seconds, which was getting used.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
To Canberra esque no longer exists, and.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Stations have disappeared, and you know, all those sorts of
things shopping centers seem to have grown exponentially and take
up whole city. I said, So those sorts of things
I had to get used to, but basic streets of
where I used to hang when I was a kid
or learned to drive or my younger life are all
still there. So the basic layout is my hometown. So
(07:20):
you know, to me it was also a I think
I was just determined to go home because it was
to me like a finishing of a complete circle. You know, Okay,
my circle went one way and got disrupted, and I
went off and all sorts of weird passes to where
life sort of goes, totally not expecting it to end
up where it ended up, I said, But I was
(07:41):
determined to make it end up back in Newcastle and
say I'm home now, and let's get on with life
and let's go forward.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
I think we are so intensely interested in what your
life is looking like now because that transition for you,
like so much has changed in the time that you're incarcerated.
I mean, technology has changed almost to a place where
it would be unrecognizable if you were to drop someone
into it twenty years after they've left it, and you know,
(08:12):
people have changed, relationships with people have changed. What's the
thing that you think you've struggled to come to terms
with the most. We will presume it's something like technology.
But you've connected to us. We use a program called riverside.
You're on your laptop. You seem to be quite fine
with technology, But what is the things that you're finding
the most difficult to navigate in this new world?
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I just I struggle a little bit with how much
life becomes a pressure for people these days. You know,
you go back twenty odd years, I feel like people
were far more relaxed and how they were going about things,
where everything now seems to be on fast forward high speed.
People have to have, you know, eighty nineteen hours out
(08:58):
of a day of a twenty four hour period just
to get anything done. I said, which is, you know,
sad for me because I'm just sort of like, oh gosh,
you know, no such thing as your nine to five
job anymore, you know, I said, the exist, But people
go to work at seven thirty, is dead at nine,
and end up there until seven thirty eight, nine o'clock
before they finished, you know, I said, So that sort
of the amount of pressure that people are under to
(09:20):
just to cope with the cost of living that seems
to have skyrocketed and have gone through the roof in
twenty years, you know, I said, So that was a
big eye opener for me. And you know, yes, technology
is a little bit. Yeah, I succeeded in doing this,
but as I said, I was here for half an
hour pressing buttons to make sure that I could. And
who knows what I've affected somewhere else online by doing it,
(09:42):
So I'll probably find I've lost one of my own
breaking somewhere along the way, you know, and the whole
you know, I find it quite disconcerting that there is
a lack of communication, conversation and people just don't look
up anymore. It's all this, you know, And I don't
know how many times I've you know, pedestrians have just
gone marched out in the middle of the road, and
(10:04):
I've had to go whoa because they have none and
looked up to see if they were going to get
hit by car.
Speaker 4 (10:09):
So I do. I do find that to live disconcerting.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Have you succumbed to the screen yourself, though, Kathleen, to a.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
Certain time of the night, it's off and I don't
look again.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
And I have a bad habit of just leaving it
somewhere and forgetting to bring it with me because I'm
not you know, I can take the dog.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
For a walk a good twenty minutes and go left
the phone at home. Too bad if anything happens to
me because I can't have my phone.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
We can all learn a thing or two from you,
I tell.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
You, so. Yeah, it takes a bit of getting this
to you know, Facebook, I only do as in you know,
I've got some friends on there, a few, and that's it.
I don't sort of do anything else. Googles my friend
on the laptop, I must say, I find out a
lot of interesting stuff.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
You know, It's probably more than I need to know.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Have you googled yourself?
Speaker 3 (10:55):
I have occasionally had a look and just been shocked
at how much stuff's actually up there, and to see
that it's even on YouTube of all places, I'm just
sort of like, oh my goodness, you know, but you know,
it is what it is, and you know, I made
the decision to open up and give some information because
everyone seemed to be just so wanting to know that.
I thought, you know, there's a few bubbles that needed
(11:18):
bursting and some correct.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
Information that needed to come out.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
So that was one of the reasons why I said
Yesak and decided to swallow the fear and just start
doing some interviews and then go for it.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Can you take uspeak to the day you were actually
released from prison because we'd heard rumblings via the New
South Wales Supreme Court that potentially something might be happening,
and then it all happened so very quickly, and then
all of a sudden you were just out, and we
were all scrambling because we're like, we weren't expecting this
to happen right now. So there's US journalists frantically typing
(11:51):
away on our keyboards to let everyone know that Kathleen
was out. But what was that experience like for you
on that day? Did you know something was coming. Was
there any inkling that you were going to be released
that day? What did that day look like for you?
Speaker 3 (12:05):
Well, we were all just that that day was going
to roll around. We didn't think it would take as
long as it did. After, you know, his honorable Bath
has put down his basic finding saying, you know, nothing
to see here, not sure why she's still there. Yeah,
you know, there was a good few months. I was
still wandering around working and having to live the jar life,
(12:27):
with staff even saying why you're still here and others
none of us knowing. So it was sort of like
just treading water waiting to see, you know, were they
going to do the right thing and give the pardon
and release or what were they going to do or
were we going to have to keep fighting and scrambling
to sort of get someone to say something. So, even
though we wanted it to happen and we sort of
(12:49):
knew it was going to eventually, it was always like
wet fish in the face because it was all very sudden, unjust.
It was just a bit of a shock. And that
particular day I was just working in Jarl life normal
and sent upstairs to see the boss, thinking I'm in
trouble for something and then get told by the way,
(13:10):
you've been pardoned by releasing you right now. If you
go getting that car, you're gone. So it was all
just such a rush.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Did you think for a second like someone's taking the
Pierce here?
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Yes, yes, for sure, because I think I delayed in
actually answering him, and then I actually swore at the
poor man, I'm pretty sure, pretty much saying you've got
to be kidney, I said, because it was all just
a bit too starden, a bit too yeah, you know,
And I'm sure when he asked Jacey about it, she'll
be able to tell you the horrendous story she had,
because it was also she wasn't told. No one was
(13:39):
told in the band, so not even my legal team
was told.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
So I was like, just get in the car.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Everyone was literally literally in the car, you know, I said,
So to being borrowed clothes that weren't even mine, and
a beautiful outfit that had been chosen didn't get to
be worn, and you know, and all sorts of stuff.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
I said.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
It was all very you know, shots of me getting
out of a vand holding a pair of shoes that
I probably should have had on my feet, but weren't
even thinking about it, Yeah, and later going why am
I hanging on to my shoes? You know, it's all,
it was all just very very fast.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Well, I'd love to get an understanding from you about
what jail life was actually like for you, because I
think the thing that strikes me the most, I mean
the trauma they've experience going into prison. Aside, you're still
a very young woman when you go to prison, and
you still haven't really grown into the person that you're
going to be yet. You still have a lot of
(14:31):
life experience to be had in order to become who
you're going to become.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
And then you go into a prison.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
System where people who were accused of crimes like you
had been are considered amongst the worst of the worst, right,
so they have to put you in solitary confinement. So
how do you even grow as a human being when
you're still that young, with so much growing to do,
when there's no one around you to grow with.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
That's a very good question.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
I sort of think growing occurred, but because of the
situation and environment that I'm in, I would say it
was you know, the only thing it really did was
cement my strength cement, the stoism, cement, the stubbornness, you know,
and cement. You know, the word resilience has been used
(15:20):
in all those sorts of words, So that sort of environment, Yes,
it helps cement and strengthen those sort of qualities. Whether
I would have gone and had or those had not
not been in prison, who can say. I've always been
a bit stubborn and had a bit of a strength
thing about me, I said, But I don't think it
would have developed into such the giant shoulders a major
backbone that I ended up with. I said, it would
(15:42):
have been a more sedate version.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
I always say to people, Okay, I was, you know,
thirty four thirty five when I'm in in so there
was a life hate before that, and I tended to
always hang on to that and say, Okay, it's not
a case of going in at eighteen and having no
life whatsoever and not even knowing what to do or why.
At thirty five, you know, my basic life, school's personality
(16:05):
was set the whole and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 4 (16:07):
I said.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
So I used to always go back and keep saying
to people, hang in a minute, I was a fully
grown adult by the time I come in here, and
I had to try to keep standard values and things
that the core of myself. I had to keep strong
and remind myself to try and stay true to that
core of who I thought I was as much as possible.
(16:29):
It can be made tough and very hard to do
so when you're in an environment like that, and I
had many a time where I slid behavior wise and
was just the basic naughty girl. You know, I said so,
but it was all in defense of trying to survive,
and kept telling myself, you know, even if all the
legal stuff doesn't work twenty twenty eight, I'm out with
(16:52):
these people, like it or not, so I have to
suck it up and do what I need to do.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
So that's how I dealt with it.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
But everyone's an individual and everyone deals with things way differently.
I've had a lot of women say to me, you know,
if I had lost one, I would have fallen apart.
You've lost four and you've been in prison for how
have you coped? My answer to that is, I believe
that everybody has a strength in there, and when they're
forced to find it, it's there. Some people have struggle
and don't find it others find it. Some people you
(17:20):
know who can do it reasonably easily, others can't, and
others really fight. Well.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
I didn't.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
I wouldn't say that I did it easily, but I
just think it could have something to do with, you know,
the beginnings of my life and how tough the beginning
of my life was. I sort of already had a
bit of a backbone, and that helped me cope and
survive with what I had to go through for those
twenty years.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
That's the thing is, I don't think a lot of
people realize that your story starts so much earlier than
the birth of your first child, because you do, you know,
find out somewhat older child that your mother is actually
was murdered by your father, and you're then handed off
to relatives and then make you wards of the stage
and you've had to sort of fight pretty much tooth
(18:05):
and now from the very beginning of your life. Do
you think that that might have added to that resilience?
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Does?
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Because I mean that would have broken a lot of
people emotionally, if not psychologically.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
I have a firm believer for me that it did.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
You know, whether you know, I've heard third hand stories
of me at eighteen months old or two years old,
being quite independent and just deciding I'm going to do
this or do that, and even at three or four,
not tolerating bullies or people who are picking on other people.
I said, So it was already there and developed, you know,
(18:43):
and sort of semi stayed that way, but developed and
evolved being in a tough situation, in a tough environment
like prison. A lot of my friends that I've met
along the way, a couple of them I met because
I was actually in defense of them against somebody else,
you know, I sort of said, and that's how we've connected,
and that's how we've met. And you know, I've got
(19:03):
a friend of mine who's over six foot two, and
she was being bullied in high school and I didn't
have a bar of that. So we connected, you know,
So I said, which was quite ironic, that I'm just
this little five foot five, you know, telling people rack. Oh,
you know, you know, so I think I pick on
someone else.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
You know.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
So it was already there, and I already had it
as a backbone, you know, third hand stories of me
at eighty months I was wandering around because you know,
my mother, for all intents and purposes. I didn't, you know,
I can honestly sit here and say I don't remember,
I don't recall. I couldn't tell you what you look like.
I've got a picture that I've seen. Don't really know
much or anything about her. I have heard that she
was very free spirited and just did you know, as
(19:42):
she pleased, and that she was kind hearted and whatever else.
But unfortunately for me, by the time she had me,
she had developed a bit of a drinking and a
gambling problem, so not the same human being at all.
And third hand stories of me just wandering around pretty
much taking care of myself and a singer and happy
at eighty months old, what does that say? You know
something I'd already started to, you know, try to do
(20:03):
the best I could, even at that age. Said so, yeah,
I think it's sort of I think what happens to
you in your life, trauma wise or whatever, it canmulds
you into who you are.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
And I guess it depends on how much you know.
I've been lucky.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
I've had quite a bit of mental health help for
coping and especially whilst I was inside, and now that
I'm out, you know, it'll be an eternal thing. Some
people don't get that to be able to help them,
you know, I said, so, they may suffer far more
than what I'm suffering. But I'm also very I am
mindful of, you know the fact that my situation and
(20:37):
all the people who helped me with it, especially my
close friends and stuff, they suffered mentally.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
And you know, and all that along the way as well.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
You know, I said, So, there was, as I said,
there was a ripple effect to you know, if you
want to stand beside me or help me out, there
was a ripple effect that you could be affected by it.
And as upsetting as that was to me, you know,
at the time I was dealing with trying to cope
and mentally sustain myself as well, I said so, But yeah,
I think you know, whatever your core person is, that's
(21:04):
that's who you are.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me, Claire Murphy.
I'm speaking with Kathleen Folbig, who spent twenty years in
prison after being wrongfully convicted of killing her four infant
children before her release in twenty twenty three. Up next,
I ask Kathleen what it's like to talk about her
children after everything she's been through and what led her
(21:27):
to keep choosing motherhood even after such heartbreaking loss. Kathleen,
I'm sitting here thinking as you're telling me these stories
of how resilient you are, about the moment that arrives
in this conversation where we have to talk about the
(21:48):
deaths of your children. It's a really awful thing to
talk about.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
It is.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
I mean, I have a kid, I now can like
when your story broke, I wasn't a mum, so I
looked at your story very differently than the way I
do now now that I do have a child, and
it changes you. Having a baby physically fundamentally changes who
you are.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
You become a mom, it's a second life for you.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
And so talking to another mum about the death of
her babies it is such a tricky thing to bring up.
I want to know how you feel about talking about
your children when they have been such a focus of
your entire existence, from becoming a mum where they do
(22:39):
become your entire existence, to everything that then you've gone
through in losing them one after the other and having
to recover from the trauma of those in still still
wanting to become a mum. And becoming pregnant again, and
being able to process that into a place where you
can be okay with being pregnant and having another baby
and not pass away from anxiety yourself. How do you
(23:03):
feel about talking about your babies with people like we
are strangers, and yet this is a conversation you're going
to keep having with people until, you know, maybe forever.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
I had to accept the fact that that's who I'm
known as. You know, I'm known as the poor woman
the lost four children, went to prison for it, that
managed to win the case and then get back out.
That's who I'm known as.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
That's the long story short.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
Yes, yeah, discussing and talking about my children. I used
to be quite coveted of memories and tended not to
share because for me, I don't have the big banking
vault of memories in regards to them, I have a
select few. The trauma of losing them for me, it's
(23:51):
hard to describe, because I sometimes still use it if
I'm in a traumatic situation that I don't think I'm
handling very well. I have what they call it. It's
almost like a deflective shield that sort of just comes up,
almost like I stepped beside myself, and I just don't
tend to. I may be answering you, but but it's
(24:12):
very monotone. I can go a little monotone and not
because it blocks me from feeling too much. As such,
I try not to do that these days, because as
far as I'm concerned, you know, for everything that I
went through, my children existed, and I would never ever
(24:34):
deny that they did, you know, I said, so, it's
a it's a rough edged knife edge that I sort
of run on when I'm when I'm talking about the kids.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
It's the decision to keep having them.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
You know that There were times when you know, I
decided no, I was going to go after Sarah. When
I lost my third one, you know, I went in
and discussed having my tubes type because I just wasn't
even going to go there. But considering I wasn't, you know,
either thirty or something quite yet or any just over,
doctor said to me, we can't, You're too young, you know,
And I got denied. You know, I've pretty much to
(25:07):
do it because they were concerned I was doing it
for an emotional reason, not a you know, and that
made no sense to me because I'm sitting there saying
to the doctor, how am I supposed to differentiate from
an emotional reason as to why I don't, you know
sort of thing. But you know, there was a few
years that went between Sarah and then deciding to go
with Laura. But you know, the stress mass stress of
(25:30):
worrying constantly and ended up being quite paranoid when the game.
But when Laura came around, I wouldn't wish that on anyone,
I said, because it was you know, I'm not going
to say it was a terrible decision, because it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
You know.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
I met Laura.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
She was beautiful and wonderful and enjoy in my life,
So it wasn't a bad decision as far as I
was concerned in the end. But yeah, to make the decision,
that was quite a racking process to go through. And
of course, you know, I had a husband at the
time to be considering, and you know, when you go
down these roads. I think what I sort of lacked
(26:04):
in in my relationship is Craig was conversation. We rarely
ever actually really truly spoke about stuff, and I think
that's vitally important. You really need to communicate. So for
anyone else that was going through something like mine, who's
having a trying to decide whether they're going to have
another child or not. I would always be saying, well,
make sure you have those conversations and you make them deep,
(26:27):
you take them mean, and you make them last, and
you really make sure you know so thing, because I
you know, I have said to friends in the past
sometimes that you know, if Caleb, my very first one,
had survived, I may not have had the other threat.
I might have just been quite happy enough to have
been a single parent, single child, household. But that's not
(26:50):
how fate, not path and not not.
Speaker 4 (26:52):
Where we went.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
So yeah, but trauma for me is like, you know,
everyone always says, you've suffered so much trauma, why are
you're even still standing?
Speaker 4 (27:01):
Why you're not rocking in a corner somewhere.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
And my answer to that is because I guess everyone's
individual on how they process these things. You know, I said,
so everybody says you've never had the chance to grieve,
and I'm like, well, technically that's wrong. You know, I
did actually go to all four funerals, and you go
through the grieving process. By the time you're getting around
to a funeral, you know you've got the weeks and
(27:25):
weeks after a funeral, that is, you know, that are
the most depressing parts of your life that you're ever
going to come across. But eventually everyone around you, you know.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
Moves on.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
I said, you can't keep, you know, staying in that
grief mode. It's not healthy. You've got to try and
attempt to get on with your life in some fashion
and decide which direction you want to take it in.
And that's exactly what I did. I kept moving forward.
Others didn't, you know. I don't think my ex husband
moved forward. I think he was always blagging behind a little.
(27:57):
And I think in the end, I just moved forward
a bit too far, and you know, we ended up
separating them. Yeah, so I still do that now. Moving
forward is my sole focus. There's no dwelling on past
too much. There's no lamenting it, there's no you can't
change the past. I try really hard not to have
(28:17):
any negativity or toxic thoughts about the past, you know,
and or people that have offended or heard or betrayed
or done whatever. I try very hard to just sort
of go, okay, well, those decisions have you made, that's
the path they've chosen. And there's just the path I'm
taking and you just have to go forward from there.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Does that extend that sort of moving forward and not
worrying too much about the past is extended to police
and how investigators handled your case.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
Because don't get me wrong, when I get police pulling
up next to us in the car, I can be
a tad nervous.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Really, I mean that happens to all of us, but
to you especially, Yes.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
As an automatic thing. You know, there's a bit of
a funny story.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
When I first got my license and I had to
be pulled over my very first breath test. The window
came down. I was so nervous that I think I
was fumbling and stuttering a little. So he probably thought
something wrong with his lady because she's not reacting, you know,
you know. And I had to find my license and give
it to him. And once I've given it to him,
he's looked at it, and I think he's then looked
(29:25):
at me, and then he's just gone, thanks very much,
here you can go.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Ah.
Speaker 4 (29:30):
So I don't know, don't know to this day.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Whether for me might have worked in your favor in
that moment.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
I don't know whether we recognize the picture and just went, oh, geez,
you know, just let this one go, or whether it's
you know, he was just being kind, or whether it
was you know, I blew with the thing and blew
nothing I said, So it was all a case of
you know, standard thing. But yeah, it's you know, I
don't think it's necessary police for me that I might
have a bit of a negative reaction to. But if
(29:57):
you start talking to me about detectives and some of
their tactics will, then that's different.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
When I read into how, especially how they confronted your
ex husband, they really when you look at the conversations
that were had, it feels very leading, like they led
him into making a decision, and then that sort of
tarnishes your relationship with him from that point on because
(30:21):
he spends the rest of his time believing that you
are guilty and that there is no way that it
could possibly be otherwise. And the way that they've treated
you in that process too is I mean, on reflection,
there are a lot of decisions that were made that,
you know, the conversations that we had with you a
grieving young mother should not have happened in the way
(30:42):
that they did. So how do you how do you
feel about those detectives and the way they handled your case.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
I it's a hard call, because you know, as far
as I'm concerned, police and detectives are needed in our society.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
We can't do without them.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
But of course, in any major organizations, I'm sure you
have good, bad, and average, you know, I said, So
it's just how it rolls. Yes, some of the tactics
and things that we used to make sure that a
case was built for me. You know, I sit here
now and go, okay, you take it right back to
even when he was first you know, he first approached
(31:22):
the DPP about my matter and was pretty much told
you're going to need more. There's not enough here, you know,
I said, So he on his own from what we
can gather, just kept going.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
I said.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
So it was sort of like, okay, you were just
told there's not enough here, but you still got after me.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
Anyway.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
That's that's where you know, I can sit and go
and shake my head and just sort of go. Would
that happened today, I'm not sure, you know. I hope
that hopefully some lessons were sort of learned here, especially
on how you treat grieving people. I said, because it's
sort of like to to want to speak to a
grieving person at a hospital straight up when their brain's
(32:01):
not even connected because they're growing traumatically through so much off.
I'm not sure that's a good thing to do, I said,
because yeah, that you know, things are said or not said,
or inferences made and all sorts of things. But to
build a case on that, I do find that a
little on the offensive side. And it's just sort of like,
(32:21):
you know that, I hope your lesson don't do that again,
you know, I said, because it's you know, it's not
a good thing to do. I sort of keep telling
myself he had a job to do, and he certainly
went and did it. I said, So I can't, you know,
I can't really say that much more about it. I'm
not going to say I hate the man, because I
don't personally know him enough to say you hate him.
You don't hate someone that you don't know.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Next, Kathleen opens up about what it was like to
have her personal diaries turned into evidence against her in court.
How do you feel about the use of say, your
diaries is.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Evidence that, as far as I were concerned, was offensive
and to.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Have we've all written things in our diaries in the
moment that make no sense or that makes sense at
the time. I'm like, could be taken in any which
way depending on your mental health that day.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
Right, Absolutely, And I don't know how many people, especially
women who's do you know, the majority? If you look
at percentages, it's usually women that write in these sorts
of things. So it's it's to me to use something
like that, and I only pluck out certain words and
then weaponize was to meet a disgusting thing to do,
(33:30):
and we all agreed on that. It didn't matter who
we spoke to or you know, but how you can
get that point across in a legal world is a
total different, you know sort of thing. You know. My
defense's team's tactic was to simply say, nothing to see here,
don't know why you're using them, nothing to see here.
Well that wasn't good enough, and I got done for
(33:51):
them anyway, And they were used in a specific way
to make sure that a case was bolstered and that
the case was pretty much built up around them. I said,
so for all intents and purposes, I didn't really have hope.
I've gone down, whether I loved it or not, because
the sign of the times, the fact that metal law
still existed and was threading through everything even way back then.
Speaker 4 (34:14):
Didn't really have hope.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Actually, so you were really aware of that and you
knew that in that time when you were facing court.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Were you aware of that?
Speaker 1 (34:21):
No?
Speaker 4 (34:21):
Probably not. Back then.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
I was always hopeful, you know, but I was fairly ignorant, naive,
and I kept thinking that the system would listen to
me at some point and get it right, you know,
I said, so to eventually find out and land in
your land in prison, blinking, going, Well, that didn't work.
Speaker 4 (34:40):
I don't know what's going on there. But it's too
late by then, you know, I said, so you.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
Precedents have been set, legal arguments have been done, you know,
I said, you start to become history when it comes
to you know, students looking up things and doing and all.
Speaker 4 (34:52):
That sort of stuff.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
So it's a tough It's literally a case of how
do you defend your random thoughts that come out of
your head that you were still enough to stick on
a bit of paper, and then someone goes and reads them.
And every individual has a different way of interpreshing something
they might read. You know, I said so, and I
(35:15):
can still do it now. Something might flash up on
the news and I'll read it and go oh, wow,
that means blah blah blah, And yet a partner can
be sitting next to me and go, oh, I didn't
read that.
Speaker 4 (35:25):
I think that reads blah blah blah.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
And I'm like it's a prime example, you know, yeah,
and you know, And sometimes I can still write stuff
even today, and someone will read it and then not
really understand what it's come from and take it in
a totally different way. So it's an eternal argument, really
eternal thing that just keeps going.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
So you said, then, like your land in prison wide item,
blinking and wondering where the hell you ended up here?
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Like I mentioned before, you had to.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Go into solitary confinement because people who are accused of
killing children are often targeted by other inmates. How because
that goes for a couple of years, But how do
you then transition into the general population, and how do
you protect yourself from being a target at that point?
Like I imagine you didn't have too many hand to
hand combat skills going into prison at that time, thirty
(36:13):
something year old woman, Like, how do you defend yourself?
Speaker 3 (36:16):
For me?
Speaker 4 (36:17):
Personally.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
I basically it was almost like I put up the
shield of bravado, and because I knew in my heart
they all got it wrong and I wasn't supposed to
be there. It very quickly dawned on me, though, that
I couldn't keep saying that, because when you're in there
in a situation, and you're in a prison for what
(36:39):
you're in there for, like mine, it doesn't matter how
much you protest as far as the concerned.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
The court struck you there. So you did it, I said,
So you don't.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
It's no point, and you're jumping up and down saying
but I didn't, you know, blah blah blah. So I
learned to go quiet on that side of things. So
for me, it was more of a I think I
drew down on the backbone that I already sort of
seem you had. And there was a lot of bravado
pretty much going on, and the ability sometimes to talk
(37:08):
and eventually talk someone down if I thought that they
weren't actually seriously wanting to hurt me, that they just
were yelling at me and screaming and blustering and carrying on.
There was quite a percentage of times where I could
say some stuff that just made them stop and blink,
and they would go still swear at me, but they
would walk away just shaking heads instead of continuing to
(37:28):
abuse me. I also did the thing of you know,
past someone, they might be negative, being given you glory
eye every time they look at you. But I used
to walk past, going hey, go every time, and sooner
or later you catch them out and they go.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
I killed them with kindness in the end.
Speaker 4 (37:45):
You know, so things.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
So it probably took i'd say within about five years
people that most of the women had realized she's here
to stay.
Speaker 4 (37:54):
We can't get rid of up.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
And the standard argument I was always saying was, you know,
you say I don't belong in here. Where would you
like us be to go? You provide me with you know,
this is where I am. We're all wearing the same
green tracks, we all bleed red blood if anything happens
to us. You know, I said that we're all female here.
So therefore, in that respect, no matter what anybody does,
we should be bedding together a little bit, not continuely
(38:17):
fighting and carrying it on with each other. So I
tried to use logic as much as possible when it
came to talking. But of course you get some women
in there who just stayed here logic the total illological.
So in that respect, I think it was literally a
case of defending myself by having so much Backbunder and
Bravado meant that they were a little unsure how I
(38:40):
would react if they took me on. I said, So
that gray area of whether I was going to fight
with them or not ninety percent of the time was
enough for people to go the year a year. We'll
just leave that one, you know, so everybody deals with
as I said, you know, I had so many women,
you know that there was about when I was in there.
The number grew up to about ten of us women
(39:00):
who were in for similar sorts of things, and every
one of us was different on how we chose to
handle other.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
Inmates, you know.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
So we were never really in main population, but we
did end up in wings that were thirty to forty
women strong. I said, so it's still you know, you're
still battling to survive the so called hierarchy at prison,
you know, I said.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
So where would you all sat in the hierarchy?
Speaker 3 (39:25):
I was never Queen Bee put it that way, but
I was never down the botom either, So it was
you know, I simply just chose to have my head down,
stay out of other people's business, which is what you do,
and worked as much as possible. And I think once
staff figure out that you're a hard worker and they
(39:46):
can get things, get you to do stuff, and then
they can rely on you to do it, you spend
far less time hanging around a whole lot of women
who are gossiping and just becoming negative in general. I
used to always try to align myself with people who
would joke and laugh and be merry rather than those
who were too focused on being victims and you know,
(40:07):
crying and lamenting that why.
Speaker 4 (40:08):
They were there.
Speaker 3 (40:09):
And people are always surprised when you say that you
would laugh while you're in prison. But there are some
absolutely cracker humorous things that can happen in a prison.
And if you don't have a sense of humor, you
know what you're supposed to do. I do have a
rather dark sense of humor, so it's not a you know,
but you know, prisoners can make light of any situation
if it helps them cope with why they're there.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
Do you then leave all that behind, Kathleen, like do
you step away from prison. These are people you've spent
decades with and staff that you would have interacted with
every single day. Do you just leave all that behind
when you leave prison or do you stay in contact
with people.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
I've got a handful of dear friends that I made
whilst I was inside, because I was extremely picky and
choosy about who I made friends with, and I used
to say that I would make friendly acquaintances and friendlies,
never friends, but occasionally one would sneak in that I
would have more more relatable with. So you know, probably one, two, three,
I probably got about four if that, and one lady
(41:03):
that is still inside that I you know, we have
a chat and I like to hear that she's doing
well and that you know, her plans for getting out,
which turned out to be if I had stayed in there,
we both would have been going parole in twenty twenty eight,
six months apart. So she's still doing very well, and
I know she's going to succeed when she gets out,
(41:24):
you know, I said so. But they are people who
are capable of turning things around and not drowning in
the seriousness and the traumatic side of being in prison.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
See You've mentioned a few times that moving forward has
been a focus for pretty much your entire life and
has helped you remain resilient in times rather than looking
back and wallowing in self pity or in grief. So
where does forward look like for you? Because you and
Tracy have written a book together which you have been
touring around the place and really telling your story and
(41:58):
advocating for women who find themselves in this situation, which, interestingly,
at the time when you were before the courts, it
was like unheard of that four children could all you know,
die from SIDS from the same family, and it's been
revealed over time that that is in fact not the
case and that it has happened to other families. And
so your advocacy is now making sure that people understand
(42:20):
your story and how it can be implied to many others.
Is that where future Kathleen lives in the advocacy space?
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Does she have other dreams that we're looking forward to?
Speaker 3 (42:33):
I that's that cool. I don't mind doing things like this.
I don't mind if women wish to speak and talk
about how you cope with things like this. I'm a
firm believer that strength is an inward thing. I said,
everybody has it. It's there, you just have to tap
and find it. So you know it's doing this sort
(42:56):
of thing. I thought I would be quite shy and
reserved and in would with it and not be able
to do it. But it seems, you know, I'm doing
quite fine. The book for me was a very cathartic
thing to do, and I tapped into you know, I
write journals most of my life, so I think I
tapped into that ability to just write stuff and you know,
(43:20):
with help from editors and everything else that you know,
the crew that we did have to do this, try
to interrupt.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
You're not concerned that anyone's going to look at these
journals at some stage and misinterpret them.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
No, yeah, you know. So don't get me wrong, and
you never get me writing in another one. But writing
seems to be something I enjoyed doing, and it's whether
it's a flair or something I've got.
Speaker 4 (43:42):
Who knows the future for me?
Speaker 3 (43:43):
You know, I might travel to go down that path
again and just see if I could do something and
keep writing in such a fashion. And or yes, you're
doing talks around the place and encouraging women that I
think my message is basically, whatever you're going through, traumatic
or not, if you've got a group of friends that
(44:04):
are helping to hold you up and you've got the
scaf around you, you survive and you can come out
the other side. And even for those who don't have that,
there are so many organizations and that out there these
days that can help you through.
Speaker 4 (44:18):
That sort of stuff.
Speaker 3 (44:19):
I think my message just is there is life after
and you just have to make the decision that you
want it. I said, So that's my message. I'm pretty
an ordinary girl.
Speaker 4 (44:29):
I don't you know. I'm not planning.
Speaker 3 (44:31):
I'm you know, people say, how would you like to
go bunge of jumping, skydiving and doing all these things,
and I'm shaking my head going on and it's been
to any years in prison to go jumping out of
a plane and kill myself.
Speaker 4 (44:40):
It's just not.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
I've got life left to live now, right, yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:46):
I said, So, you know, I enjoy simpler things, you know,
like walking the dog, you know, or just sitting on
the lounge with the own pattern. Is he a glorious
thing for me? Staring out a window watching life go
by my best thing.
Speaker 4 (44:56):
Ever.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
I'm quite a people person, watcher and I love to,
you know, do that sort of thing. It's simple things
like walk, sunrise of sunsets. I'm still enjoying all of
those things, good food to enjoy a little bit too
much unfortunately.
Speaker 4 (45:07):
Ah, but you.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
Know that's sort of like, you know, it's more simple
for me, and I enjoy the you know, the simpler
things in life. And I would be quite happy to
spend the next thirty years if I'm lucky to do that,
if I go off on the other paths and I write,
and I talk and I do these sorts of things
podcasts and whatever. To me, they're an added bonus, you know.
(45:29):
And if I'm helping anybody along the way, that's great too. Yeah,
I don't mind doing that. You know, we still got
in a whole you know, there are other people that
are going to tackle the whole legal reform in an
attempt to try to reform our system a little because
it does, unfortunately need it. Everyone has been in to
do with my case believes that, you know, a CECRC
Criminal Case Review Commissions needed and that that would be
(45:52):
a fairer way to do things. You know, I said,
you know, I believe that, you know, if there have
been that sort of committee or a commission available at
the time when my stuff will hit the fans, so
to speak. I may not have ended up in prison
for as long as I was in there. You know,
it could have been looked at, reviewed, you know, taken
on board and or you.
Speaker 4 (46:10):
Know, but.
Speaker 3 (46:12):
We just sort of think, you know, there was an
awful lot of in my case particular, an awful lot
of not listening going on because the decision had been made,
that the path chosen, and we had so much trouble
with the same information once, you know, once you get
denied appeals and you get and you're on a trial
and you get found guilty, it's so hard to get
the system to look or hear or see anything else.
(46:35):
And every time you're in front of a judge, they're
going off the same information all the time, and it's
very difficult to get them to all sideways.
Speaker 4 (46:42):
In any way to go.
Speaker 3 (46:44):
By the by the time I'd gone to Bathurst, you
were looking at you know, I think it was nearly
eighteen or judges I sat in front of in twenty years.
But he was the first semi progressive one that went okay,
there could be something to see what's going on, you know,
I said, so, it's just unfortunate it took twenty years
to get there.
Speaker 4 (47:02):
Perform needs doing.
Speaker 3 (47:03):
I can't see myself being a Big four when it
comes to the reform side. I've always said I'm happy
to be rolled out if my face case and me
speaking helps in that manner. But I'm not likely to
be up a parliment steps with the placard, you know,
and knocking on doors and saying you need to change something,
because I think that it needs to come from inside
(47:25):
the system. The system needs to change, so the threat
needs to come from.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
Just finally, Kathleen, I want to understand from you how
you how you feel that place in your heart of mum,
you know, with Caleb making your mom, and then Patrick
and Sarah and Laura or adding to that, and then
your ability to become a mum again is cut off completely,
(47:50):
you have, that option is taken away from you as
your center prison. How do you feel that place in
your heart because you are a mother. How do you
then express that now that you're a free woman again.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
I I.
Speaker 3 (48:08):
I will always say I'm mom. I simply say I'm
a childless mum, you know, sort of things. So as
cruel as that sounds, that is what I am. I
can still walk down the street and spot especially little
toddlers will make me smile, knowing and especially when they're
just you know, there was a little kid down the
street not long a oot the shopping center I was at,
(48:29):
had run away a bit from his parents. His parents
didn't even really realize because they were busy to do something.
He's kicking things around, He's doing whatever he wanted to.
And I just simply smiled, looked at you and said,
mayby be that age again when you just don't care,
you're just doing your own thing, you know. And then parents,
of course went right, you know sort of things. So
sometimes you know, I've been to dinners and things with friends,
(48:52):
and some of them I've thought I had had little
ones there, grandchildren.
Speaker 4 (48:56):
Of course.
Speaker 3 (48:56):
At the time and the night, I'm fine with it
and I can relate and do whatever, but I do
suffer the next day with the depression. Here I said,
So it's a response that's just automatic. I tend to
want to not really go out or not see anyone,
and I just need that time to go. Well, you know,
as pleasant as that was, that her you know, I said,
(49:18):
So I can still have quite painful moments with it all.
And you know, Mother's Day I'm not a fan of
because I don't get to celebrate it like everybody else.
So I tend to steer clear of it, you know,
I said. So there's just little things like that, you know.
I said, So I always say I'm a mum, you know,
and everyone else will say, you know, you're a mum, Cathy,
(49:40):
that's all there is to it. I said, yes, But
unfortunately I'm in the relegated unfortunate club of being a
child loss mum.
Speaker 4 (49:47):
I said, So.
Speaker 3 (49:49):
There's it's a pain there that'll be there forever. It's
never going to go away. People say time heels. I said,
I don't believe that. I think time lessons not necessarily heels,
you know, because you know, Caleb would be you know, gosh,
nearly thirty six, you know, he said, if you'd been
around it, we'd been about thirty six now, you know,
I said, So all of my children would have been
grown adults, moved on, and I possibly could have been
(50:10):
a grandmother by now, you know, I said, So little
things like that, you know, a sort of go that's
a bit painful, but I used to live vicariously through
everybody else's children, especially when I was inside. You know,
Tracy's son, Presley, who adore He grew up in front
of me, but I never actually met him until I
was really sat day, you know, I said, so, you know,
(50:31):
and my other friends children too. You know, I heard
about them, heard about all their exploits. But it's very different.
You know, people probably don't know this, but I've not
had a child in my arms since. I think the
first day I do when someone hands me a baby, says,
can you just watch this?
Speaker 4 (50:48):
Be like, I'm not sure how that will go.
Speaker 3 (50:54):
Big.
Speaker 1 (50:54):
Thank you to Kathleen for speaking with us today. You
can find her book with Tracy Chapman Inside Out at
the link in our show notes. If you want to
see images from this story, head to our Instagram page
at True Crime Conversations us a follow, and have a
look at our case explainers as well while you're there.
If you enjoyed this episode, please review our show on
Apple Podcasts or leave a comment on Spotify. True Crime
(51:15):
Conversations is hosted by me Claire Murphy and produced by
Tarlie Blackman, with audio designed by Jacob Brown.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
Thanks so much for listening.
Speaker 1 (51:22):
I'll be back next week with another true crime conversation.
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